a_o answer_n to_o a_o libel_n entitle_v a_o cool_a conference_n between_o the_o clear_v reformation_n and_o the_o apologetical_a narration_n bring_v together_o by_o a_o well-willer_n to_o both_o wherein_o be_v clear_o refute_v what_o ever_o he_o bring_v against_o the_o reformation_n clear_v most_o humble_o submit_v to_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o honourable_a house_n of_o parliament_n the_o most_o learned_a and_o reverend_a divine_n of_o the_o assembly_n and_o all_o the_o reform_a church_n by_o adam_n stevart_n amb._n lib._n 5._o de_fw-fr fide_fw-la si_fw-mi taceamus_fw-la consentire_fw-la videbimur_fw-la si_fw-la contendamus_fw-la verendum_fw-la ne_fw-la carnales_fw-la judicemur_fw-la imprint_v at_o london_n 1644._o to_o the_o reader_n courteous_a reader_n i_o pray_v thou_o excuse_v some_o of_o the_o most_o material_a fault_n fall_v out_o partly_o by_o my_o absence_n partly_o by_o a_o accident_n that_o befall_v the_o copy_n and_o to_o correct_v they_o as_o follow_v page_n 3._o line_n 8._o read_v neither_o shall_v he_o have_v fear_v a_o suppression_n of_o his_o book_n p._n 10._o l._n 11._o deal_n all_o that_o parenthesis_n ibid._n p._n l._n 20._o deal_n because_o p._n 11._o l._n 9_o read_v and_o those_o who_o interest_n p._n 16._o l._n 24._o for_o but_o so_o r._n and_o so_o p._n 19_o l._n 26._o r._n for_o it_o be_v 1._o it_o be_v p._n 22._o d._n man_n p._n 25._o l._n 3._o r._n answ_n 1._o ib._n p._n l._n 5._o for_o how_o r._n 2._o how_o ibid._n p._n l._n 8._o after_o the_o word_n communion_n add_v all_o that_o follow_v 3._o either_o this_o well-willer_n pretend_v to_o play_v the_o naturalist_n or_o the_o divine_a if_o the_o naturalist_n he_o know_v not_o well_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o northerly_a wind_n for_o ordinary_o it_o bring_v not_o black_a but_o fair_a weather_n and_o scatter_v the_o cloud_n as_o he_o may_v learn_v of_o all_o naturalist_n ab_fw-la aqualone_fw-it aurum_fw-la from_o the_o north_n come_v gold_n i.e._n golden_a or_o fair_a weather_n job_n 37.22_o the_o north_n wind_n drive_v away_o rain_n prov._n 25.23_o if_o he_o play_v the_o divine_a and_o allude_v to_o scripture_n i_o must_v say_v to_o he_o as_o christ_n say_v to_o the_o jew_n you_o err_v not_o understand_v the_o scripture_n for_o there_o it_o signify_v either_o the_o spirit_n of_o christ_n as_o in_o s_z song_z and_o then_o he_o must_v pray_v with_o the_o church_n a_o wake_v o_o northwind_n and_o come_v thou_o south_n blow_v upon_o my_o garden_n that_o the_o spice_n thereof_o may_v flow_v out_o cant._n 4.16_o or_o god_n people_n who_o be_v northern_a in_o respect_n of_o the_o philistine_n who_o be_v their_o enemy_n so_o we_o must_v be_v god_n people_n and_o the_o independenter_n who_o this_o well-willer_n oppose_v to_o the_o north_n their_o enemy_n or_o the_o babylonian_n who_o be_v septentrional_a or_o northward_o in_o respect_n of_o god_n people_n esay_n 41.25_o and_o so_o he_o esteem_v we_o to_o be_v god_n enemy_n if_o so_o how_o hold_v they_o we_o for_o one_o of_o the_o most_o pure_a church_n but_o what_o ever_o it_o signify_v it_o can_v never_o signify_v the_o church_n of_o scotland_n but_o in_o a_o very_a good_a sense_n pag._n 27._o d._n us_o p._n 28._o for_o heb._n panegr_n r._n as_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d of_o scripture_n heb._n 12.23_o l._n ult_n for_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d r._n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d p._n 29._o l._n 8._o for_o vomit_n r._n you_o vomit_n p._n 29._o l._n 30._o d._n of_o myself_o p._n 43._o l._n 27._o for_o two_o read_v five_o p._n 35._o l._n 29._o after_o the_o word_n narration_n add_v all_o this_o that_o follow_v only_o i_o pray_v the_o reader_n to_o consider_v these_o man_n craft_n in_o go_v about_o to_o sow_v the_o seed_n of_o division_n betwixt_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n &_o the_o orthodox_n church_n in_o make_v the_o world_n to_o believe_v that_o they_o grant_v he_o more_o than_o the_o maxim_n of_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o do_v for_o 1._o they_o tell_v not_o wherein_o 2._o whether_o this_o power_n be_v ecclesiastical_a or_o civil_a as_o for_o the_o ecclesiastical_a they_o can_v give_v it_o 1._o it_o be_v only_o a_o ministerial_a power_n to_o serve_v &_o not_o magisterial_a to_o domineer_v with_o or_o to_o be_v give_v away_o by_o proxy_n to_o who_o they_o please_v 2._o if_o they_o give_v the_o magistrate_n any_o power_n what_o can_v it_o be_v be_v it_o to_o preach_v to_o teach_v the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n to_o excommunicate_v or_o to_o attend_v upon_o the_o sick_a and_o poor_a people_n and_o as_o for_o the_o civil_a it_o be_v not_o they_o but_o his_o majesty_n and_o the_o magistrate_n as_o be_v the_o constant_a tenet_n of_o all_o the_o orthodox_n church_n who_o hold_v the_o civil_a power_n incompatible_a with_o that_o of_o a_o pastor_n or_o doctor_n of_o the_o church_n 3._o if_o they_o grant_v the_o magistrate_n more_o power_n than_o our_o church_n how_o be_v it_o that_o they_o acknowledge_v the_o king_n patent_n in_o new-england_n for_o nothing_o else_o but_o in_o matter_n of_o state_n or_o civil_a government_n and_o god_n word_n only_o in_o church_n government_n 4._o he_o and_o they_o also_o hold_v the_o same_o rule_n in_o old-england_n and_o therefore_o i_o pray_v all_o man_n only_o to_o consider_v if_o this_o be_v not_o rather_o a_o gull_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n than_o a_o proof_n of_o what_o they_o say_v 5._o i_o wish_v he_o to_o answer_v whether_o new-england_n depend_v of_o old-england_n and_o whether_o they_o think_v the_o king_n and_o parliament_n have_v power_n to_o change_v religion_n and_o church_n government_n there_o 6._o whether_o they_o both_o have_v power_n to_o do_v the_o same_o here_o against_o god_n word_n 7._o whether_o the_o parliament_n have_v do_v well_o or_o not_o in_o call_v of_o this_o assembly_n of_o divine_n to_o judge_v of_o matter_n of_o religion_n as_o for_o we_o the_o constant_a opinion_n of_o all_o our_o church_n be_v that_o all_o civil_a power_n belong_v only_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o none_o at_o all_o to_o the_o church_n 2._o that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n have_v a_o extrinsecall_n executive_a power_n about_o religion_n to_o maintain_v and_o reform_v it_o in_o case_n of_o corruption_n and_o that_o according_a to_o the_o precedent_n in_o scripture_n neither_o do_v ever_o any_o good_a christian_a prince_n assume_v any_o more_o to_o himself_o neither_o do_v it_o any_o way_n lessen_v his_o power_n that_o it_o be_v only_o extrinsecall_v for_o to_o be_v intrinsical_n or_o extrinsecall_v signify_v not_o any_o quantity_n of_o great_a or_o lesser_a power_n but_o only_o the_o manner_n thereof_o for_o a_o extrinsecall_a power_n and_o influence_n may_v be_v great_a than_o a_o intrinsical_v as_o appear_v in_o that_o of_o the_o efficient_a and_o material_a cause_n for_o the_o first_o be_v only_o active_a and_o yet_o extrinsecall_v but_o the_o second_o mere_o passive_a without_o any_o action_n or_o efficacy_n at_o all_o and_o yet_o intrinsical_v perlegi_fw-la tractatum_fw-la hunc_fw-la in_fw-la quo_fw-la nihil_fw-la reperio_fw-la quo_fw-la minus_fw-la cum_fw-la utilitate_fw-la publicâ_fw-la imprimatur_fw-la ja._n cranford_n before_o i_o begin_v the_o refutation_n of_o this_o pamphlet_n it_o shall_v not_o be_v amiss_o that_o i_o apologise_v for_o myself_o for_o refute_v a_o book_n already_o sufficient_o refute_v of_o itself_o and_o by_o that_o very_o same_o book_n whereof_o it_o intend_v the_o refutation_n i_o will_v therefore_o here_o declare_v unto_o the_o christian_a reader_n how_o i_o come_v to_o undertake_v it_o how_o unwilling_a i_o be_v to_o do_v it_o upon_o what_o reason_n i_o be_v move_v thereunto_o the_o truth_n therefore_o be_v thus_o that_o some_o day_n after_o the_o publication_n of_o this_o book_n i_o happen_v to_o fall_v in_o company_n with_o some_o man_n of_o quality_n that_o be_v read_v of_o it_o and_o after_o the_o perusal_n thereof_o it_o be_v the_o joint_a wish_n of_o they_o all_o that_o some_o answer_n be_v draw_v up_o unto_o it_o a_o few_o day_n after_o that_o i_o chance_v to_o reencounter_n with_o some_o of_o the_o same_o company_n and_o some_o other_o very_o well_o affect_v to_o reformation_n who_o after_o sundry_a discourse_n fall_v upon_o the_o same_o theme_n again_o some_o of_o they_o say_v that_o it_o will_v do_v well_o that_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n will_v answer_v it_o where_o some_o of_o they_o desire_v i_o to_o deliver_v my_o opinion_n i_o reply_v several_a time_n as_o occasion_n require_v in_o substance_n that_o which_o follow_v that_o it_o may_v seem_v strange_a to_o other_o if_o man_n of_o such_o gravity_n and_o learning_n and_o much_o more_o of_o so_o eminent_a place_n and_o employment_n represent_v the_o whole_a nationall_n church_n of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o scotland_n shall_v stoop_v to_o answer_v every_o idle_a
answer_v not_o a_o word_n to_o the_o number_n of_o church_n officer_n or_o to_o their_o justification_n against_o the_o aspersion_n lay_v upon_o they_o for_o lay_v elder_n or_o their_o accusation_n against_o the_o independent_o because_o of_o their_o layman_n preacher_n and_o prophet_n etc._n etc._n all_o this_o he_o pass_v over_o by_o a_o doctoral_a privilege_n hic_fw-la &_o ubique_fw-la terrarum_fw-la tacendi_fw-la only_o he_o scratch_v at_o the_o proof_n they_o bring_v for_o presbytery_n class_n and_o synod_n but_o refute_v it_o not_o no_o more_o than_o he_o do_v the_o argument_n bring_v by_o master_n rhetherford_n guelaspe_v and_o other_o take_v from_o god_n attribute_n as_o 1._o from_o his_o goodness_n 2._o wisdom_n 3._o justice_n 4._o providence_n 5._o from_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o church_n etc._n etc._n item_n from_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n 6._o from_o sundry_a inconvenience_n 7._o from_o the_o order_n establish_v in_o the_o church_n of_o the_o jew_n 8._o from_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o apostle_n 9_o from_o christ_n institution_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n 10._o from_o parity_n of_o reason_n or_o proportion_n betwixt_o a_o parishional_a session_n or_o consistory_n and_o six_o or_o seven_o person_n in_o the_o real_a church_n thereof_o and_o a_o combine_a presbytery_n as_o you_o call_v it_o and_o every_o one_o of_o the_o church_n peradventure_o two_o or_o three_o or_o ten_o thousand_o parishional_a consistory_n subject_a thereunto_o 11._o from_o the_o end_n of_o the_o church_n 12._o her_o conservation_n peace_n etc._n etc._n whereof_o you_o may_v happy_o hear_v more_o within_o a_o few_o day_n in_o the_o mean_a time_n i_o pray_v you_o answer_v to_o what_o be_v write_v and_o not_o to_o clude_v such_o argument_n with_o tale_n at_o assize_n wooll-packe_n canonshot_n bullet_n battery_n and_o term_n of_o military_a discipline_n wherewith_o we_o be_v not_o so_o well_o acquaint_v p._n 10._o §_o 3._o here_o it_o seem_v that_o this_o doctor_n will_v excuse_v the_o apologizer_n in_o say_v that_o they_o give_v more_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n than_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbytertall_a gevernment_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v as_o if_o it_o be_v rather_o say_v by_o way_n of_o retaliation_n and_o in_o anger_n then_o in_o truth_n because_o as_o he_o say_v the_o peace-plea_n call_v they_o independent_o if_o it_o be_v so_o 1._o their_o passion_n be_v worthy_a of_o the_o other_o compassion_n 2._o but_o this_o shall_v not_o have_v make_v they_o to_o offend_v all_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o especial_o their_o benefactor_n in_o the_o netherlands_o which_o be_v all_o presbyterian_o 3._o all_o comparison_n be_v also_o odious_a especial_o among_o man_n well_o breed_v 4._o and_o yet_o howsoever_o they_o hate_v the_o name_n yet_o they_o love_v dear_o the_o thing_n signify_v by_o the_o name_n and_o will_v depend_v of_o no_o ecclesiastical_a judicatory_a yea_o as_o the_o author_n of_o the_o observation_n and_o annotation_n show_v clear_o not_o upon_o all_o the_o church_n of_o the_o world_n and_o yet_o will_v that_o their_o congregation_n depend_v of_o themselves_o who_o yet_o will_v depend_v upon_o no_o man_n in_o spiritual_a power_n or_o authority_n but_o the_o doctor_n say_v if_o upon_o a_o gross_a error_n of_o another_o church_n they_o viz._n independent_a church_n dare_v exercise_v only_o a_o non_fw-fr communion_n with_o it_o than_o there_o be_v more_o leave_v for_o the_o magistrate_n to_o do_v then_o when_o you_o have_v excommunicate_v it_o answ_n in_o excommunicate_v a_o private_a person_n or_o a_o particular_a church_n when_o it_o can_v be_v do_v with_o less_o hurt_n to_o the_o church_n than_o be_v the_o good_a include_v therein_o it_o leave_v all_o to_o be_v do_v by_o the_o magistrate_n that_o god_n have_v ordain_v he_o to_o do_v viz._n in_o political_a government_n non_fw-la auferet_fw-la mortalia_fw-la quiregna_fw-la that_fw-mi coelestia_fw-la neither_o require_v the_o godly_a magistrate_n our_o king_n or_o this_o parliament_n any_o more_o but_o you_o be_v importune_v who_o will_v give_v he_o more_o than_o he_o require_v of_o you_o or_o then_o either_o god_n or_o the_o magistrate_n have_v command_v you_o the_o french_a say_v of_o such_o man_n il_fw-fr est_fw-la valet_fw-la du_fw-fr diable_fw-fr ilfait_o plus_fw-fr que_fw-fr commandement_fw-fr i_o will_v not_o here_o insist_v upon_o your_o impertinency_n in_o deny_v the_o name_n of_o excommunication_n to_o non_fw-fr communion_n and_o that_o great_a pride_n in_o not_o submit_v the_o judgement_n of_o five_o or_o six_o some_o time_n idle_a yea_o oftentimes_o wicked_a felllowe_n to_o the_o judgement_n of_o all_o the_o divine_n and_o church_n of_o the_o world_n in_o case_n they_o shall_v dogmatise_v and_o sustain_v the_o most_o damnable_a heresy_n of_o the_o world_n and_o yet_o unto_o their_o judgement_n however_o so_o contemptible_a a_o number_n you_o will_v submit_v the_o judgement_n of_o all_o their_o congregation_n amount_v peradventure_o to_o the_o number_n of_o many_o hundred_o it_o may_v be_v better_a man_n than_o themselves_o neither_o be_v it_o enough_o to_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n for_o his_o power_n be_v not_o spiritual_a god_n have_v give_v a_o intrinsical_a power_n to_o the_o church_n sufficient_a for_o its_o spiritual_a end_n the_o civil_a magistrate_n may_v be_v a_o pagan_a a_o antichristian_a christian_a a_o external_a christian_a but_o a_o inward_a enemy_n to_o the_o church_n he_o may_v be_v negligent_a in_o his_o charge_n etc._n etc._n and_o be_v it_o credible_a that_o in_o such_o case_n god_n have_v institute_v no_o discipline_n or_o government_n to_o take_v order_n with_o offender_n but_o of_o this_o i_o need_v not_o to_o say_v any_o thing_n this_o evasion_n be_v so_o well_o so_o evident_o and_o brief_o refute_v in_o the_o commissioner_n own_o word_n which_o i_o pray_v the_o reader_n to_o consider_v p._n 21.22_o if_o it_o please_v the_o reader_n he_o may_v have_v sundry_a reason_n against_o this_o opinion_n in_o the_o consideration_n and_o annotation_n upon_o the_o apologetical_a narration_n it_o be_v a_o untruth_n also_o that_o the_o doctor_n presuppose_v here_o viz._n that_o a_o classical_a presbytery_n be_v make_v up_o of_o many_o minister_n and_o lay_v man_n in_o the_o kingdom_n of_o scotland_n or_o among_o other_o protestant_n and_o false_a again_o that_o their_o assembly_n be_v make_v up_o of_o person_n partly_o ecclesiastical_a &_o partly_o civil_a or_o that_o they_o there_o rule_v person_n partly_o ecclesiastical_a partly_o civil_a we_o say_v that_o there_o can_v be_v no_o such_o person_n for_o howsoever_o one_o person_n may_v have_v one_o charge_v ecclesiastical_a and_o another_o secular_a or_o civil_a yet_o be_v he_o not_o therefore_o a_o mix_a person_n neither_o be_v these_o several_a charge_n mix_v but_o distinguish_v in_o he_o fince_n of_o the_o two_o there_o resu't_v not_o any_o three_o charge_n compound_v of_o both_o as_o in_o mixtion_n but_o he_o exercise_v they_o both_o distinct_o and_o several_o in_o such_o a_o fashion_n that_o the_o one_o never_o concur_v to_o the_o function_n and_o operation_n of_o the_o other_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n it_o shall_v follow_v that_o the_o divers_a faculty_n of_o the_o soul_n as_o the_o understanding_n &_o expulsive_a faculty_n in_o a_o man_n shall_v be_v mix_v together_o since_o they_o be_v both_o in_o one_o soul_n as_o the_o most_o part_n of_o philosopher_n hold_v when_o a_o statesman_n sit_v as_o a_o member_n of_o a_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n he_o sit_v no_o way_n as_o a_o statesman_n but_o as_o a_o churchman_n neither_o judge_v he_o a_o state-man_n or_o secular_a person_n in_o quality_n of_o a_o statesman_n or_o of_o a_o secular_a person_n but_o in_o quality_n of_o a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n so_o they_o judge_v not_o of_o civil_a matter_n formal_o as_o they_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n authority_n but_o material_o &_o in_o so_o far_o as_o they_o be_v subject_a to_o a_o spiritual_a formality_n or_o conduce_v to_o a_o spiritual_a end_n under_o the_o which_o notion_n they_o belong_v not_o ordinary_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n or_o per_fw-la se_fw-la &_o intrinscce_fw-la but_o per_fw-la accidens_fw-la &_o extrinsece_n as_o all_o orthodox_n divine_v of_o the_o reform_a church_n do_v teach_v but_o this_o be_v not_o all_o for_o sundry_a of_o the_o independent_o have_v tell_v we_o that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n according_a to_o god_n word_n can_v punish_v any_o man_n for_o matter_n of_o religion_n how_o abominable_a soever_o his_o opinion_n be_v p._n 11._o and_o 12._o the_o doctor_n will_v not_o answer_v because_o he_o have_v not_o the_o book_n at_o hand_n and_o so_o shift_v over_o the_o argument_n what_o he_o say_v of_o aerius_n who_o hold_v out_o against_o bishop_n as_o our_o reform_a church_n do_v be_v not_o to_o the_o purpose_n no_o more_o be_v this_o that_o counsel_n may_v err_v
his_o sweet_a brethren_n but_o to_o examine_v all_o thing_n and_o to_o retain_v what_o be_v good_a and_o to_o consider_v that_o a_o man_n so_o bold_a and_o adventurous_a as_o to_o propound_v in_o face_n of_o this_o most_o honourable_a and_o wise_a parliament_n the_o venerable_a assembly_n of_o so_o godly_a and_o learned_a divine_n and_o of_o all_o the_o world_n so_o many_o so_o palpable_a untruth_n must_v needs_o be_v very_o passionate_a for_o those_o opinion_n which_o with_o so_o blind_a a_o zeal_n and_o so_o little_a care_n of_o his_o credit_n he_o maintain_v here_o and_o may_v be_v no_o less_o passionate_a in_o other_o thing_n then_o in_o this_o as_o for_o the_o reason_n and_o motive_n induce_v i_o to_o refute_v this_o libel_n they_o be_v not_o any_o stuff_n the_o book_n contain_v or_o the_o least_o fear_n i_o have_v that_o it_o can_v work_v upon_o any_o rational_a man_n nor_o set_v i_o upon_o it_o with_o purpose_n to_o offend_v any_o man_n no_o not_o the_o five_o independent_a member_n of_o the_o synod_n yea_o nor_o so_o much_o as_o the_o author_n of_o this_o libel_n who_o have_v so_o high_o offend_v all_o the_o best_a reform_a church_n for_o never_o any_o one_o of_o they_o offend_v i_o neither_o be_v it_o their_o act_n neither_o believe_v i_o that_o they_o have_v any_o hand_n in_o it_o or_o if_o they_o have_v any_o they_o avow_v it_o not_o and_o as_o for_o the_o author_n i_o can_v not_o offend_v he_o witting_o since_o i_o know_v he_o not_o and_o this_o i_o hope_v will_v excuse_v very_o much_o the_o offence_n if_o any_o shall_v be_v nor_o indeed_o ought_v he_o to_o take_v offence_n at_o this_o answer_n since_o he_o dare_v not_o own_o the_o book_n now_o if_o he_o be_v either_o a_o wise_a man_n or_o any_o way_n gracious_a i_o suppose_v he_o ought_v rather_o to_o thank_v i_o for_o such_o a_o ingenuous_a reprove_v of_o his_o wicked_a calumny_n against_o the_o whole_a body_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n for_o a_o reproof_n say_v the_o wiseman_n enter_v more_o into_o a_o wise_a man_n than_o a_o hundred_o stripe_n into_o a_o fool_n beside_o as_o i_o conceive_v it_o be_v a_o act_n of_o love_n for_o as_o a_o father_n say_v mate_n aust_n epist_n ad_fw-la mate_n magis_fw-la amat_fw-la objurgator_n sanans_fw-la quam_fw-la adulator_n dissimulans_fw-la neither_o can_v such_o indignity_n well_o be_v endure_v by_o any_o man_n that_o know_v how_o handsome_o to_o cast_v they_o off_o especial_o when_o they_o be_v publish_v in_o print_n and_o that_o because_o of_o the_o imminent_a danger_n thereby_o of_o infect_v the_o weak_a sort_n of_o people_n not_o only_o that_o now_o be_v but_o also_o of_o the_o posterity_n to_o come_v for_o as_o say_v the_o roman_a philosopher_n vitia_n transmittis_fw-la ad_fw-la posteres_n morib_n sen._n de_fw-fr morib_n qui_fw-la prasentibus_fw-la culpis_fw-la parcit_fw-la but_o if_o he_o shall_v be_v so_o fond_a as_o to_o think_v that_o he_o have_v do_v well_o in_o what_o he_o have_v do_v yet_o shall_v this_o answer_n have_v some_o effect_n upon_o he_o for_o as_o gregory_n say_v well_o past_a greg_n in_o past_a protervos_fw-la tunc_fw-la melius_fw-la corrigimus_fw-la cum_fw-la aequae_fw-la bene_fw-la egisse_fw-la credunt_fw-la male_a acta_fw-la monstramus_fw-la ut_fw-la unde_fw-la adepta_fw-la gloria_fw-la creditur_fw-la inde_fw-la utilis_fw-la confessio_fw-la sequatur_fw-la as_o for_o i_o i_o can_v true_o say_v my_o principal_a aim_n and_o motive_n be_v god_n honour_n the_o vindication_n of_o the_o protestant_a church_n and_o especial_o that_o of_o scotland_n from_o this_o man_n vild_a aspersion_n and_o to_o give_v contentment_n to_o good_a people_n who_o i_o be_o afraid_a may_v have_v beeno_n deceive_v with_o the_o glorious_a pretext_n of_o this_o man_n piety_n and_o particular_o that_o i_o may_v comply_v with_o the_o desire_n of_o those_o my_o worthy_a friend_n that_o move_v i_o hereunto_o and_o so_o come_v i_o to_o the_o title_n of_o the_o book_n which_o be_v a_o cool_a conference_n between_o the_o clear_v reformation_n and_o the_o apologetical_a narration_n bring_v together_o by_o a_o well_o willer_n to_o both_o here_o it_o be_v to_o be_v observe_v 1._o that_o this_o book_n carry_v with_o it_o no_o approbation_n by_o those_o who_o be_v ordain_v by_o the_o parliament_n to_o licence_v the_o print_n of_o any_o book_n from_o whence_o it_o may_v be_v infer_v that_o in_o so_o contemn_v their_o law_n and_o ordinance_n and_o afterward_o in_o maintain_v that_o independent_o of_o who_o he_o pretend_v to_o be_v one_o give_v more_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n than_o the_o principle_n of_o presbyterian_a government_n permit_v they_o to_o do_v that_o this_o be_v do_v and_o that_o say_v in_o derision_n of_o they_o both_o and_o by_o a_o man_n no_o wise_a mind_v to_o practice_v what_o he_o say_v or_o profess_v by_o some_o nostro_fw-la damus_fw-la of_o who_o it_o be_v say_v nostro_fw-la damus_fw-la cum_fw-la verba_fw-la damus_fw-la quia_fw-la fallere_fw-la nostrum_fw-la et_fw-la cum_fw-la verba_fw-la damus_fw-la nil_fw-la nisi_fw-la nostr_n a_o damus_fw-la or_o rather_o do_v as_o the_o soldier_n do_v to_o christ_n who_o bow_v the_o knee_n to_o he_o say_v haile_o king_n of_o the_o jew_n and_o mock_v he_o &_o spit_v upon_o he_o he_o give_v they_o much_o paper-honour_n with_o much_o real_a disgrace_n and_o will_v live_v as_o independent_a upon_o all_o civil_a as_o all_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n 2._o it_o be_v to_o be_v observe_v as_o i_o say_v before_o that_o the_o author_n take_v no_o proper_a name_n to_o himself_o but_o only_o be_v describe_v by_o a_o common_a name_n which_o be_v more_o ordinary_a among_o beast_n than_o man_n for_o as_o man_n individual_a nature_n and_o person_n be_v signify_v by_o proper_a name_n so_o be_v all_o beast_n ordinary_o represent_v by_o name_n common_a to_o the_o whole_a species_n if_o you_o except_o a_o few_o tame_a beast_n so_o here_o there_o be_v no_o individuum_fw-la signatum_fw-la for_o to_z own_o this_o pamphlet_n which_o make_v some_o judicious_a man_n to_o think_v that_o he_o find_v himself_o conscious_a of_o what_o i_o have_v say_v or_o be_o to_o say_v and_o therefore_o go_v cunning_o to_o work_v in_o not_o own_v it_o for_o fear_v of_o some_o castigation_n in_o stead_n of_o confutation_n 3._o that_o this_o author_n common_a name_n here_o be_v a_o good-willer_n to_o both_o whereupon_o at_o first_o before_o that_o i_o have_v read_v over_o the_o book_n i_o wonder_v much_o what_o sort_n of_o creature_n this_o can_v be_v what_o hybrida_n and_o amphisbaena_fw-la in_o matter_n of_o religion_n breed_v of_o so_o opposite_a species_n have_v its_o head_n in_o so_o opposite_a part_n carry_v by_o so_o contrary_a motion_n towards_o so_o contrary_a end_n viz._n of_o dependency_n and_o independency_n but_o afterward_o in_o run_v it_o over_o i_o find_v no_o such_o thing_n answerable_a to_o the_o frontispiece_n neither_o in_o matter_n nor_o in_o manner_n for_o it_o you_o consider_v the_o first_o it_o be_v nothing_o else_o but_o a_o intend_a justification_n howsoever_o with_o little_a success_n of_o the_o apologetical_a narration_n and_o a_o senseless_a arraignment_n of_o the_o reformation_n clear_v if_o the_o second_o likewise_o his_o expression_n which_o be_v evermore_o we_o we_o our_o etc._n etc._n testify_v most_o evident_o that_o he_o be_v a_o formal_a party_n true_o he_o will_v the_o commissioner_n so_o little_a and_o his_o quinqu_n '_o ecclesian_n minister_n so_o much_o good_a in_o this_o cause_n that_o he_o will_v make_v the_o world_n believe_v that_o the_o one_o party_n say_v all_o and_o the_o other_o nothing_o at_o all_o but_o what_o ever_o good_a you_o will_v they_o pardon_v we_o if_o we_o give_v you_o no_o credit_n till_o they_o be_v bring_v together_o and_o it_o be_v see_v what_o each_o of_o they_o can_v say_v for_o themselves_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n i_o pray_v the_o reader_n to_o take_v notice_n how_o this_o man_n in_o the_o every_o threshold_n furnish_v we_o with_o so_o evident_a a_o argument_n of_o his_o weakness_n in_o that_o intend_v a_o disguisement_n he_o have_v no_o better_a contrivance_n then_o by_o his_o own_o pen_n so_o shameful_o to_o bewray_v himself_o alas_o poor_a man_n that_o profess_v here_o so_o much_o truth_n and_o honesty_n thou_o shall_v thus_o foul_o betray_v thyself_o to_o be_v neither_o true_a nor_o honest_a he_o end_v his_o book_n in_o a_o extraordinary_a way_n with_o a_o etc._n etc._n intimate_v something_o of_o the_o book_n behind_o and_o afterward_o finis_fw-la assure_v we_o of_o nothing_o behind_o as_o if_o his_o only_a aim_n be_v to_o contradict_v himself_o and_o so_o to_o try_v our_o patience_n and_o his_o own_o party_n credulity_n how_o far_o the_o contrary_a party_n will_v permit_v or_o his_o own_o admit_v such_o palpable_a untruth_n both_o in_o the_o beginning_n and_o in_o the_o end_n of_o his_o book_n ecclesiast_fw-la 10.32_o the_o word_n of_o a_o
afterward_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o french_a minister_n as_o anonymus_fw-la as_o himself_o and_o the_o french_a discipline_n be_v for_o the_o independenter_n but_o prove_v it_o not_o but_o suppose_v that_o we_o shall_v take_v it_o upon_o his_o word_n which_o we_o may_v not_o at_o any_o hand_n do_v till_o we_o see_v more_o candour_n and_o sincerity_n in_o his_o proceed_n as_o for_o merellus_n and_o some_o minister_n of_o the_o french_a church_n excommunicate_v for_o their_o erroneous_a opinion_n or_o ill_a life_n and_o afterward_o assault_v the_o discipline_n whereby_o they_o be_v sentence_v if_o they_o have_v any_o such_o for_o they_o we_o envy_v they_o not_o such_o brethren_n because_o the_o commissioner_n p._n 18._o of_o the_o reformation_n cleat_v maintain_v the_o fidelity_n of_o the_o reformer_n of_o the_o scottish_a church_n say_v that_o they_o desert_v not_o their_o church_n nor_o carry_v away_o church_n with_o they_o nor_o do_v undergo_v any_o voluntary_a exile_n but_o think_v it_o a_o great_a spoil_n after_o that_o they_o be_v sentence_v to_o exile_n to_o save_v their_o life_n and_o to_o live_v with_o very_o small_a mean_n far_o from_o any_o friend_n to_o comfort_v they_o this_o the_o doctor_n appli_v to_o the_o independenter_n of_o who_o the_o commissioner_n do_v not_o speak_v but_o of_o their_o own_o minister_n but_o since_o it_o be_v his_o pleasure_n to_o do_v so_o i_o must_v say_v that_o hence_o it_o follow_v that_o their_o exile_n be_v a_o far_o great_a suffering_n than_o that_o of_o the_o independent_o 1._o for_o it_o be_v involuntary_a but_o the_o more_o involuntary_a that_o any_o affliction_n be_v the_o great_a they_o be_v and_o the_o more_o voluntary_a they_o be_v the_o least_o they_o be_v for_o poena_fw-la debet_fw-la esse_fw-la molesta_fw-la &_o involuntaria_fw-la but_o that_o which_o be_v voluntary_a be_v not_o troublesome_a 2._o that_o of_o the_o independent_o be_v accompany_v with_o many_o friend_n and_o worldly_a mean_n so_o be_v not_o the_o other_o 3._o it_o may_v be_v doubt_v if_o pastor_n for_o their_o personal_a or_o particular_a persecution_n may_v fly_v without_o actual_a compulsion_n and_o the_o public_a consent_n of_o their_o flock_n since_o they_o be_v not_o in_o the_o church_n in_o quality_n of_o particular_a but_o of_o public_a person_n and_o head_n of_o the_o flock_n neither_o can_v that_o text_n of_o scripture_n help_v he_o viz._n when_o they_o persecute_v you_o in_o one_o place_n fly_v to_o another_o for_o that_o be_v say_v of_o particular_a and_o not_o of_o public_a person_n or_o if_o it_o be_v say_v of_o the_o apostle_n as_o to_o the_o apostle_n it_o hold_v not_o in_o particular_a minister_n tie_v to_o particular_a church_n for_o they_o be_v tie_v to_o their_o particular_a church_n but_o so_o be_v not_o the_o apostle_n who_o be_v equal_o bind_v to_o teach_v all_o the_o church_n of_o the_o world_n according_a to_o that_o say_n of_o christ_n go_v teach_v all_o nation_n matth._n 28.19_o and_o so_o can_v never_o abandon_v their_o flock_n and_o as_o for_o his_o answer_n that_o they_o heap_z themselves_o for_o a_o reserve_n to_o assist_v the_o church_n at_o their_o return_n i_o must_v say_v they_o be_v very_o provident_a in_o foresee_v such_o a_o extraordinary_a case_n and_o prudent_a in_o preserve_v of_o their_o person_n whereas_o the_o other_o sacrifice_v their_o life_n for_o christ_n truth_n pag._n 12._o §_o 3._o and_o p._n 13._o §_o 1._o &_o 2._o the_o doctor_n say_v nothing_o against_o that_o which_o the_o commissioner_n say_v and_o so_o approve_v it_o he_o appli_v it_o to_o the_o independenter_n and_o deni_v that_o they_o esteem_v so_o of_o excommunication_n viz._n that_o to_o limit_v the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n in_o matter_n of_o opinion_n to_o the_o common_a and_o uncontroverted_a principle_n and_o in_o the_o matter_n of_o manner_n to_o the_o common_a and_o universal_a practice_n of_o christianity_n and_o in_o both_o to_o the_o party_n know_v light_n be_v the_o dangerous_a opinion_n of_o the_o arminian_o and_o socinian_o open_v a_o wide_a door_n and_o proclaim_v liberty_n to_o all_o other_o practice_n and_o error_n which_o be_v not_o fundamental_a and_o universal_o abhor_v by_o all_o christian_n etc._n etc._n to_o this_o he_o answer_v with_o complaint_n and_o say_v that_o there_o be_v no_o argument_n here_o but_o in_o this_o laconic_a discourse_n there_o be_v more_o argument_n than_o he_o see_v the_o first_o be_v arminian_o and_o socinian_o opinion_n be_v not_o to_o be_v receive_v but_o to_o limit_v excommunication_n in_o matter_n of_o opinion_n etc._n etc._n be_v arminian_o and_o socinian_o opinion_n ergo_fw-la it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v receive_v the_o second_o be_v what_o open_v a_o door_n and_o proclaim_v libertle_a to_o all_o other_o practifes_n and_o error_n which_o be_v not_o fundamental_a be_v not_o to_o be_v admit_v but_o to_o limit_v excommunication_n etc._n etc._n be_v such_o ergo_fw-la it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v admit_v the_o three_o be_v a_o opinion_n universal_o abhor_v by_o all_o christian_n be_v not_o to_o be_v receive_v but_o to_o limit_v excommunication_n in_o matter_n of_o opinion_n to_o the_o common_a uncontroverted_a principle_n and_o in_o matter_n of_o manner_n to_o the_o common_a and_o universal_a practice_n of_o christianitle_n and_o in_o both_o to_o the_o party_n know_v light_n viz._n of_o nature_n or_o of_o grace_n be_v a_o opinion_n universal_o abhor_v by_o all_o christian_n ergo_fw-la to_o limit_v excommunication_n etc._n etc._n be_v not_o to_o be_v admit_v 4._o the_o doctrine_n that_o tend_v to_o the_o overthrow_n of_o the_o reform_a religion_n be_v not_o to_o be_v receive_v but_o to_o limit_v excommunication_n etc._n etc._n tend_v to_o the_o overthrow_n of_o the_o reform_a religion_n ergo_fw-la it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v receive_v to_o these_o argument_n he_o answer_v not_o formal_o neither_o to_o the_o matter_n nor_o to_o the_o form_n and_o no_o wonder_n for_o he_o can_v not_o observe_v they_o only_o to_o the_o end_n he_o may_v seem_v not_o to_o have_v answer_v nothing_o at_o all_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o pagan_n and_o infidel_n do_v not_o practice_v but_o how_o be_v that_o to_o the_o purpose_n since_o in_o all_o the_o commissioner_n discourse_v there_o be_v not_o one_o word_n of_o pagan_n or_o infidel_n 2._o he_o answer_v that_o papist_n prelate_n socinian_n arminian_o brownist_n and_o separatist_n do_v not_o hold_v some_o common_a truth_n with_o christian_n but_o to_o what_o purpose_n he_o say_v this_o i_o know_v not_o if_o it_o be_v to_o prove_v that_o they_o may_v be_v excommunicate_v we_o deny_v it_o not_o but_o say_v that_o to_o hold_v such_o a_o opinion_n be_v arminianism_n socinianism_n etc._n etc._n i._n e._n a_o arminian_n or_o socinian_n opinion_n whereunto_o he_o answer_v not_o again_o by_o socinian_o arminian_o etc._n etc._n either_o he_o understand_v those_o who_o be_v not_o bear_v in_o the_o church_n and_o who_o profess_v not_o our_o religion_n or_o those_o who_o be_v bear_v in_o the_o church_n and_o profess_v our_o religion_n if_o the_o first_o they_o can_v be_v excommunicate_v since_o they_o be_v not_o nor_o ever_o be_v of_o our_o communion_n if_o the_o last_o it_o be_v true_a they_o may_v be_v excommunicate_v but_o that_o be_v not_o the_o question_n but_o whether_o this_o be_v not_o socinianism_n and_o arminianism_n viz._n to_o limit_v excommunication_n in_o matter_n of_o opinion_n to_o the_o common_a and_o uncontroverted_a principle_n and_o in_o matter_n of_o manner_n to_o the_o universal_a practice_n of_o christianity_n item_n whether_o this_o open_v not_o a_o door_n to_o all_o other_o error_n and_o practice_n as_o they_o say_v after_o this_o when_o he_o can_v answer_v nothing_o he_o return_v unto_o his_o ordinary_a lamentation_n that_o they_o be_v compare_v to_o infidel_n etc._n etc._n but_o the_o commissioner_n serve_v not_o themselves_o of_o bare_a comparison_n as_o you_o use_v to_o do_v but_o with_o solid_a argument_n which_o prove_v you_o clear_o what_o they_o say_v neither_o be_v you_o compare_v by_o they_o with_o separatist_n but_o i_o prove_v you_o to_o be_v such_o for_o separate_v yourselves_o from_o the_o reform_a church_n sacramental_a communion_n neither_o be_v you_o compare_v with_o brownist_n etc._n etc._n for_o conform_v of_o church_n government_n with_o scripture_n as_o you_o pretend_v but_o for_o pervert_v of_o it_o against_o scripture_n wherefore_o all_o these_o your_o complaint_n be_v nothing_o else_o but_o calumny_n that_o you_o cast_v upon_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n evermore_o sophisticate_a with_o your_o caption_n of_o non_fw-la causa_fw-la ut_fw-la causa_fw-la according_a to_o the_o ordinary_a custom_n of_o your_o sect._n and_o i_o pray_v this_o doctor_n what_o if_o a_o man_n become_v brutish_a and_o have_v the_o light_n of_o his_o understanding_n altogether_o corrupt_v so_o as_o to_o deny_v that_o there_o be_v any_o sin_n against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n
they_o in_o the_o lord_n but_o not_o to_o rule_v ever_o themselves_o and_o other_o answ_n 1._o what_o be_v well-willer_n understand_v by_o congregation_n whether_o minister_n alone_o of_o rule_v elder_n alone_o or_o both_o together_o or_o man_n or_o all_o man_n woman_n and_o child_n and_o in_o a_o word_n all_o the_o member_n of_o the_o church_n i_o know_v not_o neither_o do_v he_o express_v his_o mind_n upon_o this_o point_n only_o i_o must_v say_v that_o be_v once_o in_o company_n with_o some_o of_o their_o preacher_n i_o hear_v some_o woman_n maintain_v stout_o in_o presence_n of_o the_o minister_n without_o any_o contradiction_n make_v by_o he_o that_o woman_n also_o have_v power_n in_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n to_o judge_v of_o controversy_n of_o religion_n and_o in_o matter_n of_o all_o ecclesiastical_a censure_n 2._o i_o answer_v it_o be_v one_o thing_n 1._o to_o call_v a_o church_n officer_n to_o his_o charge_n or_o to_o give_v he_o his_o vocation_n or_o call_n 2._o another_o to_o send_v he_o into_o the_o charge_n or_o to_o give_v he_o his_o mission_n 3._o another_o to_o admit_v he_o into_o the_o charge_n and_o to_o elect_v he_o or_o choose_v he_o the_o first_o be_v a_o act_n of_o the_o church_n officer_n who_o examine_v his_o life_n and_o doctrine_n and_o afterward_o give_v he_o his_o ordination_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o whole_a ministry_n the_o second_o be_v a_o act_n of_o those_o who_o send_v he_o and_o sometime_o be_v do_v by_o the_o minister_n in_o a_o colloque_n or_o a_o synod_n which_o give_v he_o his_o ordination_n as_o when_o he_o be_v send_v to_o feed_v a_o particular_a flock_n sometime_o by_o a_o particular_a church_n as_o in_o some_o particular_a commission_n to_o a_o class_n or_o synod_n but_o in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o universal_a visible_a church_n as_o you_o see_v in_o the_o assembly_n at_o antiochia_n in_o send_v some_o minister_n to_o the_o assembly_n at_o jerusalem_n the_o three_o be_v a_o act_n sometime_o of_o particular_a church_n as_o in_o the_o admission_n and_o election_n of_o their_o own_o minister_n sometime_o of_o a_o colloque_n and_o synod_n as_o in_o the_o admission_n of_o the_o member_n thereof_o as_o in_o that_o synod_n at_o jerusalem_n and_o here_o to_o avoid_v all_o sophistication_n of_o our_o adversary_n note_v that_o i_o speak_v here_o only_o of_o the_o visible_a church_n according_a to_o its_o visible_a form_n and_o consequent_o of_o the_o visible_a and_o extern_a vocation_n mission_n admission_n and_o election_n of_o minister_n so_o i_o say_v every_o church_n choose_v i._n e._n elect_v its_o own_o minister_n but_o it_o call_v they_o not_o nor_o send_v they_o it_o give_v they_o not_o their_o general_a vocation_n nor_o mission_n into_o the_o ministry_n but_o that_o be_v a_o act_n of_o the_o whole_a church_n which_o in_o actu_fw-la signato_fw-la belong_v to_o the_o whole_a church_n but_o in_o actu_fw-la exercito_fw-la according_a to_o the_o exigence_n of_o time_n and_o place_n to_o 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be_v allow_v to_o make_v any_o just_a exception_n answ_n i_o deny_v the_o assumption_n viz._n that_o it_o be_v as_o intrinsical_v and_o that_o for_o the_o reason_n bring_v by_o the_o commissioner_n as_o for_o that_o which_o he_o bring_v for_o confirmation_n thereof_o viz._n because_o they_o be_v choose_v by_o the_o people_n i_o answer_v 1._o it_o be_v not_o enough_o they_o have_v their_o election_n from_o the_o people_n but_o they_o must_v also_o have_v their_o vocation_n and_o mission_n from_o the_o church_n in_o the_o name_n and_o authority_n of_o christ_n which_o they_o have_v not_o according_a to_o this_o well-willer_n own_o tenet_n 2._o because_o the_o people_n can_v make_v no_o church_n officer_n and_o principal_o minister_n since_o they_o have_v not_o the_o ability_n to_o judge_v of_o their_o learning_n and_o gift_n 3._o in_o choose_v of_o a_o archbishop_n it_o be_v not_o moral_o possible_a that_o all_o the_o people_n can_v elect_v he_o and_o especial_o when_o he_o be_v a_o great_a archbishop_n or_o a_o primate_n over_o a_o whole_a kingdom_n for_o all_o the_o people_n can_v well_o meet_v together_o 4._o and_o howbeit_o they_o can_v meet_v yet_o can_v not_o their_o consent_n and_o voice_n easy_o be_v gather_v 5._o it_o be_v a_o ridiculous_a thing_n in_o choose_v of_o he_o to_o seek_v the_o consent_n and_o voice_n of_o every_o idle_a and_o ignorant_a fellow_n yea_o of_o woman_n that_o be_v of_o the_o people_n 6._o neither_o be_v it_o enough_o to_o choose_v a_o bishop_n to_o make_v any_o just_a exception_n for_o that_o be_v not_o to_o elect_v he_o but_o to_o hinder_v his_o election_n 7._o neither_o be_v this_o ordinary_o practise_v 8._o and_o master_n well-willer_n to_o the_o bishop_n here_o confess_v in_o the_o next_o line_n that_o it_o have_v have_v little_a success_n but_o master_n well-willer_n confirm_v it_o out_o of_o that_o ordinary_a passage_n of_o hieronymus_n to_o avoid_v schism_n one_o of_o the_o classical_a presbytery_n be_v choose_v to_o be_v as_o chair_n man_n answ_n 1._o such_o a_o bishop_n be_v not_o a_o english_a or_o papist_n bishop_n but_o a_o moderator_n of_o the_o action_n or_o a_o master_n of_o the_o chair_n which_o will_v not_o make_v up_o a_o bishop_n in_o so_o far_o as_o a_o bishop_n be_v distinguish_v from_o a_o ordinary_a minister_n for_o you_o yourselves_o pretend_v to_o have_v your_o synod_n which_o can_v be_v without_o some_o moderator_n precedent_n or_o master_n of_o the_o chair_n and_o yet_o you_o deny_v that_o you_o have_v any_o bishop_n or_o episcopal_a government_n 2._o neither_o be_v bishop_n annual_o 3._o to_o be_v short_a master_n well-willer_n bring_v we_o here_o no_o real_a but_o imaginary_a bishop_n in_o the_o kingdom_n of_o utopia_n viz._n that_o be_v only_a master_n of_o the_o chair_n annual_a etc._n etc._n 4._o item_n who_o chancellor_n archdeacon_n etc._n etc._n be_v parishioner_n 5._o their_o chancellor_n be_v not_o ordinary_o ecclesiastical_a but_o layman_n as_o you_o call_v they_o who_o 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