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world_n be_v great_a than_o the_o church_n d_o 20._o than_o noah_n and_o his_o family_n who_o be_v the_o church_n be_v command_v to_o go_v into_o the_o ark_n e_o 1._o in_o which_o place_n they_o be_v save_v when_o the_o world_n be_v drown_v f_o 23._o yet_o ham_n be_v afterward_o discover_v be_v accurse_v of_o his_o father_n and_o shem_n be_v bless_v and_o good_a prophesy_v for_o japhat_n afterward_o when_o the_o world_n be_v grow_v mighty_a than_o the_o church_n again_o than_o abraham_n be_v call_v out_o of_o ur_fw-la of_o the_o chaldaean_n both_o from_o his_o country_n and_o from_o his_o kindred_n and_o from_o his_o father_n house_n g_o 1._o because_o they_o be_v idolater_n to_o â—â—â—ship_n god_n in_o canaan_n moreover_o afterwards_o moses_n be_v seâ—â—_z and_o his_o brother_n aaron_n to_o deliver_v the_o
all_o his_o commandment_n and_o who_o have_v great_a authority_n upon_o the_o earth_n than_o they_o that_o be_v visible_a saint_n and_o what_o make_v man_n visible_a saint_n if_o not_o the_o manifestation_n of_o their_o obedience_n to_o god_n the_o father_n and_o christ_n his_o son_n in_o the_o practice_n of_o all_o his_o ordinance_n and_o not_o to_o have_v some_o other_o presbyter_n present_a with_o they_o to_o assist_v they_o as_o you_o affirm_v for_o by_o these_o other_o presbyter_n i_o know_v not_o yet_o who_o you_o mean_v and_o whereas_o you_o say_v that_o the_o church_n may_v be_v lead_v into_o error_n or_o keep_v in_o a_o low_a estate_n by_o unfit_a pastor_n and_o elder_n i_o answer_v it_o be_v a_o clear_a truth_n as_o woeful_a experience_n teach_v we_o who_o live_v here_o in_o the_o land_n of_o england_n and_o whereas_o you_o affirm_v that_o visible_a saint_n can_v ordain_v officer_n because_o they_o have_v no_o gift_n of_o prayer_n i_o answer_v here_o you_o make_v prayer_n the_o ordination_n of_o minister_n and_o whereas_o you_o say_v they_o be_v not_o able_a to_o conceive_v prayer_n here_o you_o give_v the_o holy_a ghost_n the_o lie_n for_o believer_n have_v receive_v the_o spirit_n of_o adoption_n to_o cry_v abba_fw-he father_n but_o say_v you_o they_o can_v conceive_v prayer_n according_a to_o the_o action_n in_o boâ—â—_n here_o you_o will_v seem_v to_o make_v believer_n which_o have_v the_o spirit_n of_o god_n to_o lead_v they_o into_o all_o truth_n more_o void_a of_o common_a reason_n than_o man_n that_o have_v but_o gift_n of_o nature_n again_o you_o say_v they_o have_v not_o gift_n to_o make_v public_a exhortation_n and_o admonition_n to_o which_o i_o answer_v if_o they_o have_v first_o knowledge_n to_o feel_v the_o want_n of_o a_o pastor_n and_o also_o divers_a able_a man_n out_o of_o who_o to_o elect_v and_o ordain_v a_o pastor_n than_o they_o out_o of_o who_o this_o person_n be_v choose_v be_v able_a to_o exhort_v and_o to_o admonish_v for_o he_o that_o have_v not_o the_o gift_n of_o teach_v may_v have_v the_o gift_n of_o exhortation_n again_o the_o man_n that_o undertake_v to_o teach_v other_o aught_o to_o be_v teach_v by_o god_n and_o likewise_o to_o be_v able_a by_o sound_a doctrine_n to_o withstand_v the_o gainsayer_n but_o a_o man_n may_v give_v good_a exhortation_n and_o that_o public_o that_o be_v not_o able_a to_o withstand_v the_o gainsayer_n by_o sound_a doctrine_n by_o this_o you_o may_v see_v the_o church_n of_o god_n can_v never_o be_v without_o some_o minister_n except_o it_o be_v according_a to_o that_o speak_v by_o zachaâ—iah_n in_o the_o day_n of_o very_o small_a thing_n indeed_o when_o god_n shall_v take_v away_o their_o minister_n by_o death_n prison_n or_o exile_n for_o see_v the_o church_n be_v plant_v by_o minister_n of_o god_n own_o ordain_v therefore_o they_o be_v not_o without_o minister_n in_o the_o very_a beginning_n and_o still_o the_o church_n be_v plant_v by_o the_o ministerial_a power_n of_o the_o lord_n jesus_n which_o can_v be_v exercise_v without_o fit_a instrument_n yet_o that_o they_o must_v want_v the_o word_n preach_v or_o sacrament_n administer_v till_o they_o have_v pastor_n and_o teacher_n in_o office_n be_v yet_o to_o be_v prove_v but_o that_o page_n of_o mr._n robinson_n which_o have_v be_v allege_v before_o be_v sufficient_a for_o this_o present_a purpose_n against_o you_o even_o to_o prove_v that_o the_o family_n must_v not_o be_v unprovided_a for_o either_o for_o the_o absence_n or_o neglect_n of_o a_o steward_n but_o now_o you_o seem_v to_o insinuate_v a_o affirmation_n or_o a_o supposition_n i_o can_v well_o tell_v whether_o that_o a_o rule_a elder_n may_v be_v destitute_a of_o the_o gift_n of_o discering_n and_o seem_v to_o imply_v that_o if_o he_o be_v destitute_a than_o all_o the_o church_n must_v be_v destitute_a if_o there_o be_v no_o more_o officer_n than_o be_v here_o you_o will_v fain_o make_v the_o roll_a elder_n the_o eye_n of_o the_o church_n and_o then_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o body_n must_v be_v blind_a and_o so_o unfit_a to_o have_v any_o hand_n in_o election_n and_o also_o void_a of_o the_o spirit_n of_o grace_n to_o discern_v the_o gift_n by_o though_o it_o have_v be_v prove_v unto_o you_o before_o that_o she_o be_v the_o great_a of_o all_o have_v the_o spirit_n of_o god_n to_o lead_v she_o into_o all_o truth_n be_v the_o spouse_n of_o christ_n and_o endow_v with_o all_o his_o riches_n gift_n and_o donation_n and_o thus_o you_o still_o deny_v the_o authority_n and_o ability_n of_o the_o church_n give_v to_o the_o person_n in_o office_n all_o power_n and_o desern_v but_o this_o be_v indeed_o according_a to_o your_o practice_n here_o in_o england_n but_o not_o according_a to_o the_o mind_n and_o spirit_n of_o god_n and_o for_o the_o neighbour_n church_n counsel_n i_o deny_v not_o but_o that_o it_o may_v be_v embrace_v and_o the_o saint_n have_v cause_n to_o praise_n god_n for_o any_o help_n of_o god_n ordain_v but_o if_o they_o want_v the_o help_n of_o a_o neighbour_n church_n to_o counsel_n they_o or_o neighbour_n minister_n to_o direct_v they_o yet_o if_o they_o be_v a_o church_n of_o jesus_n christ_n they_o have_v as_o have_v be_v say_v before_o power_n among_o themselves_o to_o elect_v and_o ordain_v their_o own_o officer_n as_o also_o the_o spirit_n of_o discern_v whereby_o to_o try_v their_o gift_n and_o yet_o be_v far_o from_o fall_v into_o that_o evil_a which_o they_o complain_v against_o in_o the_o episcopacy_n namely_o for_o one_o man_n to_o have_v the_o sole_a power_n of_o ordination_n by_o all_o these_o particular_n you_o may_v clear_o see_v all_o your_o pretend_a proof_n and_o former_a assertion_n disprove_v as_o i_o promise_v you_o in_o the_o entrance_n of_o this_o my_o answer_n to_o your_o second_o reason_n so_o that_o these_o two_o first_o reason_n be_v as_o i_o conceive_v the_o great_a champion_n which_o you_o have_v send_v out_o in_o this_o skirmage_n be_v now_o both_o slay_v and_o make_v void_a of_o all_o the_o life_n that_o ever_o be_v in_o they_o for_o they_o be_v make_v most_o of_o supposition_n and_o of_o thing_n that_o appear_v unto_o you_o by_o likelihood_n without_o any_o ground_n from_o the_o scripture_n and_o of_o some_o other_o thing_n than_o god_n word_n allow_v and_o of_o some_o trivial_a affirmation_n which_o be_v not_o ground_v upon_o any_o truth_n of_o god_n word_n now_o these_o two_o be_v thus_o turn_v aside_o by_o one_o of_o the_o mean_a of_o all_o the_o army_n of_o jesus_n christ_n you_o may_v just_o fear_v that_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o your_o soldier_n will_v run_v away_o wound_v in_o your_o three_o reason_n you_o say_v it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v think_v that_o christ_n will_v institute_v such_o a_o government_n of_o his_o church_n which_o afford_v no_o help_n nor_o allow_v no_o way_n or_o remedy_n for_o innocent_a person_n that_o be_v wrong_v which_o thing_n i_o grant_v to_o be_v very_o true_a but_o touch_v the_o mean_n and_o help_n which_o you_o plead_v for_o that_o be_v some_o other_o synod_n to_o appeal_v unto_o i_o tell_v you_o i_o know_v not_o what_o synod_n you_o mean_v but_o this_o i_o affirm_v that_o there_o be_v no_o large_a synod_n to_o be_v keep_v to_o settle_v church_n difference_n than_o the_o come_n together_o of_o the_o minister_n and_o brethren_n as_o it_o be_v mention_v in_o the_o 15_o of_o the_o act_n which_o i_o have_v grant_v you_o in_o my_o answer_n to_o your_o former_a reason_n and_o whereas_o you_o strive_v for_o appeal_n i_o answer_v it_o be_v the_o rule_n of_o christ_n that_o if_o one_o brother_n do_v 17_o trespass_n against_o another_o and_o if_o the_o brother_n offend_v will_v not_o be_v reclaim_v by_o the_o private_a admonition_n of_o the_o brother_n offend_v he_o be_v to_o be_v admonish_v by_o one_o or_o two_o other_o brethren_n with_o he_o but_o if_o he_o will_v not_o hear_v they_o the_o brother_n offend_v be_v to_o tell_v the_o church_n and_o if_o he_o will_v not_o hear_v the_o church_n than_o he_o be_v not_o to_o be_v account_v a_o brother_n but_o as_o a_o heathen_a man_n and_o a_o publican_n if_o not_o as_o a_o brother_n than_o out_o of_o the_o fellowship_n then_o if_o the_o wrong_n be_v any_o personal_a injury_n as_o oppression_n or_o fraud_n or_o any_o other_o sin_n of_o these_o nature_n the_o law_n be_v open_a where_o he_o may_v appeal_v for_o justice_n to_o the_o magistrate_n in_o any_o part_n of_o the_o kingdom_n wherever_o he_o live_v but_o if_o it_o be_v a_o matter_n of_o scandal_n as_o if_o he_o shall_v be_v a_o drunkard_n or_o incontinent_a or_o the_o like_a than_o he_o have_v sufficient_a remedy_n when_o such_o a_o one_o be_v cast_v out_o of_o his_o society_n by_o this_o you_o may_v see_v
and_o not_o the_o church_n by_o the_o minister_n the_o next_o thing_n to_o be_v consider_v in_o this_o your_o reason_n be_v your_o peremptory_a affirmation_n but_o ground_v upon_o no_o scripture_n namely_o that_o to_o set_v up_o independent_a and_o separate_a church_n be_v a_o schism_n in_o itself_o and_o that_o it_o will_v make_v great_a disturbance_n in_o the_o church_n both_o to_o the_o outward_a peace_n and_o to_o the_o faith_n and_o conscience_n of_o the_o people_n of_o the_o kingdom_n now_o that_o it_o be_v a_o schism_n in_o itself_o i_o deny_v and_o prove_v the_o contrary_a thus_o god_n have_v command_v all_o his_o people_n to_o separate_v themselves_o from_o all_o idolatry_n c_o 17._o and_o false_a worship_v d_o 12._o and_o false_a worshipper_n e_o 4._o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v no_o schism_n except_o you_o will_v make_v god_n the_o author_n of_o schism_n and_o this_o be_v according_a to_o the_o prophet_n esaiahs_n word_n isaiah_n 1._o which_o be_v the_o first_o lesson_n that_o every_o one_o ought_v to_o learn_v even_o to_o cease_v to_o do_v evil_a but_o i_o hope_v it_o will_v not_o be_v deny_v but_o that_o they_o be_v to_o learn_v another_o lesson_n which_o be_v to_o learn_v to_o do_v well_o but_o to_o do_v well_o be_v to_o keep_v all_o god_n commandment_n and_o to_o obey_v god_n rather_o than_o man_n now_o god_n command_n to_o his_o people_n be_v that_o they_o learn_v to_o know_v the_o form_n of_o the_o house_n as_o i_o have_v tell_v you_o before_o and_o all_o the_o ordinance_n of_o the_o house_n and_o to_o do_v they_o ezek._n 43._o 11._o but_o the_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n kingdom_n under_o the_o gospel_n among_o the_o rest_n be_v doctrine_n fellowship_n break_v of_o bread_n and_o prayer_n which_o ordinance_n the_o saint_n continue_v steadfast_o in_o and_o be_v commend_v for_o their_o constancy_n in_o the_o same_o act_n 2._o 42_o and_o that_o in_o every_o particular_a church_n or_o congregation_n though_o there_o be_v divers_a in_o one_o nation_n and_o yet_o i_o hope_v you_o will_v not_o affirm_v it_o be_v any_o disturbance_n to_o the_o nation_n otherwise_o thâ—n_n christ_n have_v show_v shall_v ever_o be_v that_o the_o seed_n of_o the_o serpent_n shall_v persecute_v the_o seed_n of_o the_o woman_n for_o god_n people_n be_v say_v to_o be_v a_o peaceable_a people_n and_o the_o lord_n himself_o have_v say_v that_o he_o have_v set_v they_o in_o the_o world_n as_o lamb_n among_o wolf_n now_o there_o must_v needs_o be_v a_o disagreement_n between_o lamb_n and_o wolf_n but_o the_o lamb_n be_v not_o the_o cause_n thereof_o by_o this_o you_o may_v see_v that_o separation_n be_v not_o a_o schism_n but_o obedience_n to_o god_n commandment_n and_o for_o any_o magistrate_n to_o give_v way_n for_o man_n to_o separate_v from_o the_o worship_n of_o the_o kingdom_n establish_v by_o law_n if_o that_o worship_n be_v not_o according_a to_o god_n law_n be_v the_o magistrate_n duty_n and_o the_o magistrate_n shall_v partake_v of_o no_o sin_n in_o so_o do_v because_o there_o be_v no_o sin_n commit_v therefore_o the_o magistrate_n ought_v not_o to_o forbid_v the_o practice_n of_o god_n worship_n when_o he_o have_v power_n to_o command_v it_o for_o he_o be_v set_v up_o for_o the_o practice_n of_o those_o that_o do_v well_o and_o for_o the_o punishment_n of_o evil_a â—oers_n and_o therefore_o you_o do_v well_o when_o you_o admonish_v the_o parliament_n in_o your_o epistle_n to_o cast_v out_o of_o the_o way_n all_o stamble_a block_n and_o to_o break_v epistle_n down_o all_o image_n and_o crucifix_n and_o to_o throw_v down_o all_o 〈◊〉_d and_o remove_v the_o high_a place_n and_o to_o break_v to_o piece_n the_o brazen_a serpent_n which_o have_v be_v so_o abuse_v to_o idolatry_n and_o superstition_n so_o than_o you_o grant_v that_o much_o may_v be_v do_v as_o it_o seem_v by_o your_o speech_n and_o yet_o if_o there_o be_v not_o a_o full_a reformation_n even_o to_o the_o throw_n down_o of_o the_o high_a place_n it_o will_v prove_v a_o blemish_n to_o the_o reformer_n you_o say_v he_o that_o do_v not_o forbid_v when_o he_o have_v power_n he_o command_v 23._o but_o i_o hope_v you_o doubt_v not_o but_o the_o parliament_n have_v power_n and_o therefore_o whatsoever_o they_o do_v not_o forbid_v by_o your_o own_o ground_n they_o have_v or_o do_v command_v but_o in_o the_o protestation_n they_o have_v not_o forbid_v god_n worship_n which_o be_v according_a to_o his_o word_n but_o they_o have_v protest_v and_o have_v enjoin_v other_o so_o to_o do_v to_o maintain_v and_o â—â—â—end_v the_o protestant_a religion_n express_v in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n against_o all_o popery_n and_o popish_a innovation_n within_o this_o realm_n etc._n etc._n and_o in_o the_o interpretation_n of_o their_o meaning_n of_o the_o say_a oath_n they_o bind_v we_o neither_o to_o the_o â—â—t_v form_n of_o worship_n discipline_n or_o government_n nor_o any_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n of_o the_o say_a church_n of_o england_n now_o if_o we_o must_v withstand_v popery_n and_o popish_a innovation_n than_o we_o must_v needs_o withstand_v such_o dependency_n as_o make_v up_o a_o whole_a nation_n a_o church_n both_o good_a and_o bad_a without_o separate_v the_o precious_a from_o the_o vile_a and_o also_o such_o synod_n or_o counsel_n that_o decree_n and_o make_v law_n and_o impose_v they_o upon_o any_o church_n to_o keep_v have_v not_o the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o warrant_v they_o for_o these_o be_v popish_a innovation_n and_o to_o be_v withstand_v by_o we_o according_a to_o our_o oath_n and_o true_o mr._n edward_n you_o may_v have_v ask_v the_o independent_a minister_n a_o question_n in_o private_a for_o you_o know_v where_o to_o find_v they_o and_o not_o have_v propound_v so_o silly_a a_o question_n before_o the_o parliament_n when_o there_o be_v none_o there_o to_o answer_v you_o your_o question_n be_v whether_o it_o be_v fit_v that_o well_o mean_v christian_n 23._o shall_v be_v suffer_v to_o go_v to_o make_v church_n to_o this_o i_o answer_v it_o be_v fit_a for_o well_o mean_v christian_n than_o for_o ill-meaning_n christian_n for_o well-meaning_a christian_n be_v the_o fit_a on_o the_o earth_n to_o make_v church_n and_o to_o choose_v their_o officer_n whether_o they_o be_v tailor_n feltmaker_n button-maker_n tent-maker_n shepherd_n or_o ploughman_n or_o what_o honest_a trade_n soever_o if_o they_o be_v well-meaning_a christian_n but_o ill-meaning_n priest_n be_v very_o unfit_a man_n to_o make_v church_n because_o what_o they_o build_v up_o with_o one_o hand_n they_o pull_v down_o with_o the_o other_o futuhe_o you_o seem_v to_o fear_v the_o sâ—reading_n of_o heresy_n if_o there_o be_v not_o a_o biâ—drance_n of_o these_o assembly_n but_o you_o shall_v rather_o fear_v that_o your_o own_o glory_n will_v be_v eclipse_v by_o their_o gift_n and_o grace_n for_o they_o be_v not_o man_n of_o so_o mean_a part_n as_o you_o will_v make_v they_o but_o be_v able_a to_o divide_v the_o word_n of_o god_n aright_o by_o the_o spirit_n that_o god_n have_v give_v they_o therefore_o i_o will_v wish_v you_o rather_o to_o let_v your_o heart_n bleed_v for_o yourself_o and_o for_o the_o evil_n that_o you_o have_v do_v for_o christ_n will_v never_o suffer_v any_o to_o perish_v for_o who_o he_o die_v thus_o much_o for_o your_o first_o reason_n in_o your_o second_o reason_n you_o say_v the_o toleration_n desire_z will_v not_o help_v to_o beale_v the_o schism_n and_o rent_n of_o your_o church_n to_o which_o i_o answer_v that_o if_o your_o church_n be_v not_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n it_o will_v not_o heal_v it_o indeed_o for_o though_o the_o prophet_n will_v have_v heal_v babel_n it_o can_v not_o be_v heal_v you_o say_v that_o minister_n and_o people_n will_v not_o submit_v to_o the_o reformation_n and_o government_n settle_v by_o law_n it_o be_v very_o like_o so_o if_o it_o be_v not_o free_a from_o innovation_n of_o popery_n because_o they_o be_v swear_v to_o the_o contrary_a but_o you_o say_v 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conscience_n and_o thus_o you_o may_v see_v it_o take_v away_o no_o authority_n which_o god_n have_v give_v to_o they_o the_o next_o thing_n you_o say_v be_v that_o they_o can_v be_v certain_a that_o their_o servant_n and_o child_n sanctify_v the_o lord_n day_n to_o which_o i_o answer_v that_o indeed_o unbelieving_a master_n take_v as_o little_a care_n of_o this_o as_o they_o that_o have_v give_v liberty_n to_o profane_v the_o lord_n day_n but_o believe_v parent_n and_o master_n may_v easy_o know_v if_o their_o child_n or_o servant_n be_v of_o any_o congregation_n what_o their_o life_n and_o conversation_n be_v and_o therefore_o this_o can_v hinder_v no_o duty_n or_o work_n of_o family_n as_o you_o false_o affirm_v nor_o across_v the_o good_a and_o peace_n of_o family_n by_o this_o you_o may_v see_v that_o this_o your_o groundless_a affirmation_n be_v no_o good_a reason_n against_o toleration_n and_o therefore_o the_o court_n of_o parliament_n to_o who_o you_o submit_v for_o 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toleration_n in_o many_o if_o not_o in_o most_o town_n and_o parish_n and_o you_o say_v it_o can_v be_v help_v all_o this_o i_o grant_v may_v be_v although_o they_o have_v not_o a_o toleration_n i_o think_v they_o will_v increase_v for_o the_o taskemaster_n can_v lay_v no_o heavy_a burden_n upon_o they_o than_o they_o have_v lay_v already_o but_o though_o they_o shall_v increase_v it_o will_v not_o be_v unprofitable_a for_o the_o increase_n of_o believer_n will_v be_v the_o strength_n and_o glory_n of_o the_o kingdom_n for_o they_o will_v in_o all_o lawful_a thing_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o king_n majesty_n their_o dread_a sovereign_a and_o to_o all_o the_o wholesome_a law_n of_o his_o land_n and_o therefore_o it_o will_v be_v no_o danger_n to_o have_v as_o you_o say_v swarm_n of_o they_o thus_o much_o for_o your_o six_o reason_n in_o your_o seven_o reason_n you_o affirm_v that_o it_o will_v be_v very_o preâ—udiciall_a dangerous_a 29._o and_o insufferable_a to_o this_o kingdom_n for_o saint_n two_o or_o three_o or_o more_o to_o gather_v and_o combine_v themselves_o in_o church_n fellowship_n have_v one_o â—â—_z power_n from_o christ_n their_o immediate_a head_n without_o expect_v warrant_n from_o any_o governor_n first_o whereas_o you_o say_v it_o will_v be_v prejudicial_a i_o answer_v it_o can_v prejudice_v none_o in_o the_o kingdom_n except_o it_o be_v the_o priest_n and_o it_o will_v be_v but_o of_o a_o little_a tithe_n which_o they_o dare_v not_o in_o conscience_n pay_v because_o those_o jewish_a ceremony_n be_v cease_v and_o if_o they_o have_v not_o toleration_n that_o will_v be_v all_o one_o in_o that_o respect_n for_o they_o will_v rather_o suffer_v then_o do_v any_o thing_n against_o conscience_n now_o whereas_o you_o say_v it_o will_v be_v dangerous_a and_o insufferable_a to_o the_o kingdom_n both_o these_o i_o deny_v for_o if_o they_o be_v offensive_a people_n two_o or_o three_o or_o a_o few_o can_v do_v but_o little_a hurt_n but_o they_o have_v be_v prove_v to_o be_v a_o peaceable_a people_n and_o the_o suffering_n of_o such_o have_v never_o be_v dangerous_a to_o any_o nation_n but_o the_o not_o suffer_v of_o such_o to_o live_v quiet_o in_o a_o land_n or_o to_o pass_v quiet_o through_o a_o land_n have_v bring_v judgement_n upon_o such_o land_n now_o whereas_o you_o seem_v to_o imply_v that_o they_o shall_v ask_v leave_n of_o the_o magistrate_n to_o gather_v and_o combine_v themselves_o into_o visible_a church_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v i_o do_v not_o read_v that_o any_o ever_o ask_v leave_v of_o the_o magistrate_n for_o such_o a_o thing_n nor_o to_o perform_v any_o of_o the_o part_n of_o god_n worship_n or_o discipline_n and_o yet_o you_o confess_v that_o these_o independent_a man_n do_v petition_n to_o the_o parliament_n for_o liberty_n *_o 5._o now_o i_o pray_v
the_o 2_o pet._n 2._o 2._o that_o many_o shall_v follow_v their_o destruction_n and_o some_o of_o they_o shall_v do_v it_o through_o covetousness_n who_o shall_v with_o feign_a word_n make_v merchandise_n of_o the_o lord_n people_n as_o be_v plain_a in_o the_o next_o verse_n who_o destruction_n sleep_v not_o but_o who_o these_o creeper_n in_o be_v appear_v by_o the_o 15._o verse_n of_o this_o chapter_n that_o they_o be_v they_o that_o love_v the_o wage_n of_o unrighteousness_n as_o balaam_n do_v but_o if_o any_o one_o so_o do_v his_o last_o end_n shall_v be_v worse_o worse_o then_o his_o beginning_n thus_o much_o for_o your_o nine_o reason_n in_o your_o ten_o reason_n you_o affirm_v that_o the_o first_o principle_n of_o the_o independent_a way_n be_v that_o two_o or_o three_o saint_n wheresoever_o or_o by_o what_o mean_v soever_o they_o do_v arise_v separate_v themselves_o from_o the_o world_n into_o the_o fellowship_n of_o the_o gospel_n be_v a_o church_n true_o gather_v for_o this_o you_o quete_fw-fr mr._n robinson_n justification_n pag._n 221._o but_o in_o that_o page_n there_o be_v no_o such_o thing_n write_v as_o i_o can_v find_v but_o see_v it_o come_v so_o near_o the_o truth_n we_o need_v not_o to_o contend_v about_o it_o for_o i_o do_v affirm_v that_o a_o company_n of_o saint_n separate_a from_o the_o world_n and_o gather_v into_o the_o fellowship_n of_o the_o gospel_n by_o what_o mean_v so_o ever_o it_o be_v that_o matter_n not_o so_o it_o be_v by_o the_o teach_n of_o the_o son_n of_o god_n according_a to_o that_o in_o heb._n 1._o 1._o these_o saint_n i_o say_v separate_v themselves_o and_o be_v gather_v into_o the_o fellowship_n of_o the_o gospel_n though_o they_o combine_v themselves_o without_o the_o warrant_n of_o the_o governor_n be_v a_o true_a church_n and_o have_v right_a to_o all_o god_n ordinance_n not_o only_o 15._o to_o admit_v man_n into_o fellowship_n but_o also_o to_o admonish_v to_o reprove_v and_o to_o cast_v out_o of_o their_o society_n all_o obstinate_a offender_n among_o they_o that_o do_v transgress_v either_o against_o the_o first_o or_o second_o table_n have_v as_o have_v be_v say_v before_o the_o spirit_n of_o god_n to_o guide_v they_o and_o wisdom_n from_o above_o to_o judge_v of_o person_n and_o cause_n within_o the_o church_n though_o they_o have_v nothing_o to_o do_v to_o judge_v those_o that_o be_v without_o and_o this_o do_v not_o make_v way_n for_o libertisnime_n for_o heresy_n and_o sectary_n as_o you_o say_v neither_o do_v it_o make_v man_n to_o run_v from_o their_o own_o minister_n because_o they_o restrain_v they_o from_o sin_n or_o keep_v they_o to_o god_n ordinance_n as_o you_o do_v affirm_v for_o if_o any_o separate_a for_o any_o such_o cause_n they_o shall_v not_o be_v receive_v into_o fellowship_n nor_o justify_v of_o any_o of_o the_o lord_n people_n but_o the_o way_n of_o the_o gospel_n as_o have_v be_v plain_o prove_v be_v not_o to_o live_v without_o god_n ordinance_n nor_o to_o live_v at_o liberty_n as_o you_o say_v except_o you_o mean_v the_o liberty_n wherein_o christ_n have_v set_v they_o and_o command_v they_o to_o stand_v fast_o because_o he_o have_v make_v they_o free_a gal._n 5._o 1._o by_o this_o you_o may_v see_v the_o saint_n be_v call_v into_o liberty_n but_o not_o a_o liberty_n to_o sin_n as_o you_o will_v insinuate_v but_o to_o be_v free_v from_o the_o yoke_n of_o bondage_n which_o be_v the_o tyranny_n or_o tyrannical_a government_n of_o the_o canon_n law_n either_o of_o rome_n or_o england_n but_o you_o say_v all_o heretic_n sectary_n or_o libertine_n will_v count_v themselves_o saint_n as_o well_o as_o the_o independent_a man_n and_o the_o reason_n you_o seem_v to_o give_v for_o this_o be_v because_o the_o minister_n and_o magistrate_n of_o the_o kingdom_n shall_v not_o have_v power_n to_o determine_v who_o be_v saint_n *_o 34._o now_o let_v all_o man_n judge_v what_o a_o weighty_a argument_n this_o be_v who_o be_v he_o that_o know_v any_o thing_n and_o know_v not_o this_o that_o the_o priest_n in_o england_n which_o be_v the_o bishop_n creature_n do_v general_o justify_v the_o wicked_a and_o condemn_v the_o just_a and_o be_v not_o these_o meet_a man_n to_o judge_v saint_n they_o justify_v none_o that_o will_v not_o be_v conformable_a and_o yield_v unto_o the_o tradition_n which_o they_o have_v invent_v in_o their_o counsel_n and_o convocation_n though_o they_o have_v not_o one_o title_n of_o god_n word_n to_o warrant_v they_o furthermore_o they_o condemn_v all_o that_o will_v not_o submit_v to_o their_o devise_a worship_n even_o in_o all_o the_o tradition_n thereof_o and_o this_o be_v the_o dependency_n which_o they_o have_v bring_v all_o man_n unto_o both_o high_a and_o low_a even_o to_o be_v subject_a to_o their_o will_n which_o be_v a_o law_n but_o now_o touch_v the_o magistrate_n you_o will_v seem_v to_o infer_v that_o he_o shall_v have_v no_o more_o power_n than_o a_o priest_n it_o be_v plain_a the_o priest_n have_v no_o power_n but_o what_o they_o have_v by_o permission_n and_o sufferance_n though_o they_o have_v dependency_n upon_o the_o pope_n himself_o but_o the_o magistrate_n have_v power_n give_v he_o of_o god_n by_o who_o he_o be_v set_v up_o for_o the_o praise_n of_o those_o that_o do_v well_o and_o for_o the_o punishment_n of_o evil_a doer_n and_o have_v the_o same_o rule_n give_v he_o whereby_o to_o judge_v they_o that_o god_n have_v give_v to_o his_o church_n especial_o christian_a magistrate_n notwithstan_v they_o be_v oppose_v yet_o they_o have_v power_n give_v of_o god_n as_o you_o may_v read_v in_o acl_n 7_o 35._o this_o man_n moses_n who_o they_o forsake_v say_v who_o maâ—e_n thou_o a_o prince_n and_o a_o judge_n the_o same_o god_n send_v for_o a_o prince_n and_o a_o deliverer_n and_o this_o be_v he_o which_o be_v as_o a_o god_n unto_o aaron_n when_o aaron_n be_v as_o the_o mouth_n of_o moses_n to_o the_o people_n exod._n 4._o 16._o now_o if_o you_o priest_n can_v have_v prove_v yourselves_o as_o aaron_n than_o you_o may_v have_v be_v assistant_n to_o godly_a magistrate_n to_o deliver_v the_o lord_n people_n out_o of_o the_o hand_n of_o tyrannical_a prince_n but_o contrariwise_o you_o add_v affliction_n as_o pharaoh_n taskemasters_n 17._o do_v even_o you_o mr._n edward_n when_o you_o say_v the_o lord_n people_n be_v wanton-witted_a and_o idle_a when_o they_o desire_v to_o have_v liberty_n to_o serve_v god_n and_o thus_o you_o sit_v in_o the_o conscience_n of_o man_n judge_v zeal_n to_o be_v hypocrisy_n but_o the_o time_n will_v come_v when_o every_o work_n shall_v be_v bring_v to_o judgement_n and_o now_o draw_v near_o to_o a_o end_n of_o this_o answer_n to_o your_o ten_o reason_n which_o be_v the_o last_o of_o this_o your_o join_a army_n it_o be_v good_a to_o look_v back_o a_o little_a and_o consider_v what_o have_v be_v say_v you_o have_v speak_v much_o for_o dependency_n but_o upon_o who_o you_o do_v depend_v i_o can_v tell_v you_o labour_v to_o bring_v man_n into_o 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have_v but_o something_o among_o you_o want_v yet_o that_o be_v to_o be_v desire_v and_o therefore_o you_o say_v there_o be_v no_o cause_n to_o leave_v the_o kingdom_n nor_o for_o private_a man_n to_o set_v up_o true_a church_n answer_n indeed_o if_o your_o church_n and_o minister_n can_v be_v prove_v true_a which_o you_o see_v be_v a_o thing_n unpossible_a than_o it_o have_v be_v needless_a as_o you_o say_v to_o leave_v the_o land_n but_o neither_o be_v your_o church_n nor_o minister_n true_a nor_o can_v the_o ordinance_n be_v have_v among_o you_o without_o sin_n and_o that_o this_o be_v the_o judgement_n of_o the_o independent_a man_n be_v plain_a by_o your_o former_a confession_n where_o you_o affirm_v they_o will_v not_o hear_v of_o grow_v into_o one_o body_n or_o communicate_v with_o you_o before_o a_o reformation_n neither_o submit_v to_o your_o class_n or_o presbyter_n as_o jure_fw-la divino_fw-la but_o in_o the_o next_o place_n you_o say_v the_o set_n up_o of_o divide_a 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the_o difference_n between_o these_o father_n *_o 34._o moreover_o you_o seem_v to_o infer_v that_o because_o siprian_n who_o you_o confess_v err_v in_o the_o point_n of_o rebaptise_v will_v not_o condemn_v they_o who_o be_v of_o a_o contrary_a opinion_n that_o therefore_o man_n may_v be_v tolerate_v in_o their_o difference_n of_o opinion_n but_o here_o you_o have_v bring_v a_o err_a father_n by_o your_o own_o confession_n to_o persuade_v we_o to_o keep_v communion_n with_o those_o that_o be_v contrary_a mind_v but_o the_o apostle_n exhort_v we_o to_o labour_v to_o be_v of_o one_o mind_n that_o we_o may_v walk_v by_o one_o rule_n but_o if_o any_o be_v otherwise_o mind_v we_o ought_v to_o wait_v till_o god_n reveile_v further_o and_o not_o to_o force_v he_o to_o be_v of_o our_o mind_n till_o he_o have_v faith_n in_o himself_o ground_v upon_o the_o word_n of_o god_n but_o that_o ground_n which_o you_o have_v that_o man_n shall_v be_v tolerate_v in_o their_o difference_n of_o opinion_n 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practice_n of_o the_o truth_n even_o as_o you_o say_v you_o apprehend_v evil_a in_o the_o practice_n of_o independency_n though_o they_o see_v it_o not_o that_o practise_v it_o because_o say_v you_o they_o be_v engage_v in_o it_o but_o it_o be_v ignorance_n in_o paul_n so_o to_o think_v and_o so_o at_o the_o best_a it_o be_v ignorance_n in_o you_o therefore_o you_o have_v no_o need_n to_o say_v that_o you_o see_v more_o evil_a in_o it_o than_o the_o independent_n can_v do_v but_o you_o shall_v rather_o have_v say_v you_o seem_v to_o see_v for_o you_o can_v see_v a_o evil_n where_o none_o be_v but_o you_o wish_v that_o the_o independent_a minister_n will_v consider_v what_o have_v be_v write_v i_o answer_v indeed_o for_o my_o part_n if_o their_o consideration_n be_v as_o i_o and_o though_o they_o consider_v it_o as_o i_o do_v without_o partiality_n yet_o they_o will_v find_v nothing_o in_o it_o to_o persuade_v they_o to_o lay_v aside_o all_o thought_n of_o set_v up_o separate_a 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therefore_o it_o will_v not_o help_v you_o to_o call_v they_o again_o to_o consider_v what_o they_o may_v enjoy_v in_o your_o church_n for_o i_o have_v prove_v it_o plain_o before_o in_o my_o reply_n to_o your_o answer_n to_o their_o three_o reason_n that_o a_o saint_n of_o god_n can_v enjoy_v no_o thing_n in_o your_o church_n without_o sin_n and_o therefore_o what_o you_o think_v you_o have_v show_v before_o in_o your_o three_o first_o reason_n be_v nothing_o at_o all_o for_o though_o you_o say_v it_o be_v but_o some_o circumstance_n that_o be_v want_v about_o the_o manner_n and_o form_n of_o discipline_n i_o tell_v you_o you_o want_v the_o substance_n even_o christ_n to_o be_v the_o head_n of_o your_o church_n and_o have_v make_v you_o a_o head_n of_o archbishop_n and_o lord_n bishop_n which_o head_n be_v full_a of_o leprosy_n but_o here_o you_o have_v bring_v mr._n calvin_n to_o cross_v you_o shrewd_o and_o you_o will_v have_v we_o to_o believe_v he_o and_o indeed_o with_o my_o heart_n i_o believe_v it_o whether_o mr._n calvin_n speak_v it_o or_o no_o you_o say_v he_o affirm_v that_o the_o scripture_n express_v the_o substance_n of_o discipline_n this_o be_v very_o true_a but_o in_o another_o place_n you_o say_v that_o calvin_n say_v there_o be_v no_o express_a precept_n concerning_o this_o matter_n â—â—_z and_o the_o like_a you_o rehearse_v present_o in_o your_o next_o word_n for_o you_o say_v he_o affirm_v that_o the_o form_n of_o exercise_v it_o must_v be_v ordain_v by_o the_o minister_n for_o edification_n because_o it_o be_v not_o prescribe_v by_o the_o lord_n do_v not_o clavin_n and_o you_o both_o cross_n yourselves_o here_o have_v christ_n indeed_o write_v in_o his_o word_n the_o substance_n of_o discipline_n and_o not_o the_o form_n you_o will_v make_v indeed_o the_o substance_n of_o discipline_n without_o form_n and_o void_a even_o as_o the_o earth_n itself_o be_v when_o darkness_n be_v upon_o the_o face_n of_o the_o deep_a so_o you_o will_v have_v 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addict_v to_o your_o own_o judgement_n but_o remember_v the_o danger_n that_o calvin_n lay_v down_o here_o that_o a_o man_n be_v wed_v to_o his_o own_o judgement_n so_o soon_o as_o ever_o a_o ocation_n offer_v itself_o will_v be_v a_o schismatic_n and_o i_o have_v tell_v you_o already_o that_o this_o be_v the_o first_o occasion_n of_o schism_n and_o apostasy_n from_o the_o truth_n of_o the_o gospel_n worship_n that_o be_v dark_a in_o their_o mind_n and_o judge_v the_o substance_n of_o god_n worship_n to_o be_v without_o form_n and_o as_o they_o themselves_o so_o presume_v take_v upon_o they_o to_o prescribe_v a_o form_n themselves_o so_o they_o be_v wed_v to_o their_o own_o judgement_n do_v schism_n from_o the_o truth_n of_o the_o scripture_n thus_o you_o say_v you_o have_v deliver_v your_o own_o soul_n but_o to_o who_o or_o from_o what_o you_o have_v deliver_v it_o i_o can_v tell_v but_o you_o say_v further_o you_o hope_v the_o brethren_n will_v withdraw_v their_o petition_n that_o they_o may_v not_o be_v read_v in_o the_o honourable_a house_n of_o commons_o but_o if_o they_o shall_v be_v read_v you_o say_v you_o hope_v the_o house_n will_v cast_v they_o out_o *_o 55._o i_o answer_v that_o they_o shall_v withdraw_v their_o petition_n be_v but_o one_o of_o your_o vain_a hope_n for_o they_o have_v more_o need_n now_o to_o petition_v then_o ever_o they_o have_v both_o to_o god_n and_o man_n see_v such_o a_o goliath_n as_o you_o muster_v up_o so_o many_o force_n against_o they_o but_o the_o late_a of_o these_o your_o vain_a hope_n do_v manifest_v the_o malice_n of_o your_o heart_n in_o that_o you_o hope_v the_o house_n will_v cast_v their_o peâ—itions_n out_o be_v
by_o the_o canon_n law_n consist_v of_o archbishop_n diocesan_n bishop_n with_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o that_o erew_n for_o this_o be_v indeed_o both_o your_o church_n and_o ministry_n which_o do_v appear_v by_o your_o own_o ground_n because_o you_o affirm_v that_o in_o this_o part_n lie_v all_o the_o power_n but_o by_o your_o own_o ground_n the_o whole_a body_n of_o the_o land_n i_o mean_v of_o the_o laity_n as_o you_o call_v they_o have_v no_o power_n at_o all_o to_o reform_v any_o abuse_n therefore_o this_o clergy_n must_v needs_o be_v your_o church_n and_o thus_o you_o make_v yourselves_o the_o head_n and_o body_n and_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o land_n the_o â—ayle_n to_o follow_v after_o you_o now_o if_o you_o can_v prove_v this_o to_o be_v a_o true_a church_n which_o have_v neither_o ground_n nor_o foot_v in_o christ_n testament_n you_o will_v work_v wonder_n but_o indeed_o such_o wonder_n have_v be_v wrought_v by_o you_o for_o all_o the_o world_n have_v wonder_v and_o run_v after_o the_o beast_n say_v who_o be_v like_o unto_o he_o and_o who_o be_v able_a to_o make_v war_n with_o he_o as_o you_o may_v plain_o see_v in_o the_o 13._o of_o the_o reveation_n 13._o therefore_o they_o that_o do_v justify_v such_o a_o church_n be_v such_o as_o have_v be_v deceive_v by_o her_o false_a miracle_n even_o by_o the_o fire_n which_o she_o have_v make_v to_o come_v down_o from_o heaven_n i_o pray_v you_o do_v not_o fire_v come_v down_o from_o heaven_n in_o queen_n mary_n time_n and_o devour_v the_o saint_n in_o smithfield_n if_o you_o understand_v heaven_n in_o that_o place_n as_o i_o understand_v it_o to_o be_v the_o seat_n of_o the_o magistrate_n you_o must_v grant_v the_o same_o for_o they_o be_v call_v god_n and_o the_o child_n of_o the_o most_o high_a for_o your_o forefather_n do_v as_o pilaâ—_n do_v wash_v their_o hand_n from_o the_o blood_n of_o the_o saint_n and_o of_o the_o innocent_a and_o turn_v they_o over_o for_o their_o sentence_n of_o condemnation_n to_o the_o secular_a power_n which_o you_o make_v your_o horn_n and_o your_o head_n push_v they_o forward_o to_o execute_v your_o bloody_a cruelty_n and_o thus_o you_o may_v see_v that_o fire_n come_v down_o from_o heaven_n in_o the_o sight_n or_o apprehension_n of_o man_n for_o most_o that_o behold_v it_o think_v it_o be_v just_a because_o it_o be_v the_o sentence_n of_o the_o magistrate_n and_o by_o this_o all_o man_n may_v see_v that_o you_o of_o the_o clergy_n be_v the_o derive_v church_n of_o england_n and_o that_o this_o clergy_n come_v from_o rome_n and_o that_o therefore_o your_o church_n be_v derive_v from_o rome_n now_o if_o you_o will_v know_v whence_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v derive_v i_o conceive_v that_o her_o power_n be_v derive_v from_o the_o beast_n with_o seven_o head_n which_o rise_v up_o out_o of_o the_o sea_n as_o you_o may_v read_v of_o in_o the_o thirteen_o of_o the_o revelation_n for_o there_o both_o those_o beast_n be_v mention_v and_o also_o the_o image_n 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â—leade_v for_o which_o consist_v of_o all_o the_o priest_n of_o england_n if_o it_o be_v not_o i_o be_v pray_v you_o tell_v i_o what_o it_o be_v but_o if_o this_o be_v it_o as_o it_o appear_v it_o be_v than_o these_o be_v your_o minister_n also_o and_o than_o it_o have_v be_v prove_v plain_o whence_o this_o your_o church_n and_o ministry_n come_v and_o that_o any_o of_o understanding_n shall_v grant_v this_o church_n and_o ministry_n to_o be_v a_o true_a church_n and_o ministry_n will_v bewray_v great_a ignorance_n in_o they_o further_o you_o add_v that_o they_o acknowledge_v the_o ordinance_n to_o be_v true_a in_o this_o i_o do_v believe_v you_o upon_o your_o bare_a word_n for_o it_o be_v a_o truth_n if_o you_o mean_v god_n ordinance_n which_o you_o have_v among_o you_o as_o first_o you_o have_v the_o scripture_n but_o you_o wring_v it_o and_o wrest_v it_o according_a to_o your_o own_o device_n and_o make_v of_o it_o a_o nose_n of_o wax_n and_o a_o leaden_a rule_n to_o lean_v which_o 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down_o the_o holy_a city_n for_o 42._o month_n this_o court_n we_o know_v belong_v to_o the_o temple_n as_o you_o may_v read_v in_o the_o 42._o of_o ezekiel_n and_o have_v in_o it_o the_o ordinance_n belong_v to_o the_o people_n and_o although_o you_o have_v baptism_n and_o the_o lord_n supper_n they_o will_v not_o sanctify_v you_o though_o they_o may_v be_v sanctify_v to_o the_o use_n of_o they_o among_o you_o which_o be_v god_n people_n according_a to_o the_o election_n of_o grace_n and_o though_o you_o have_v some_o of_o god_n ordinance_n among_o you_o yet_o you_o have_v add_v unto_o they_o many_o ordinance_n of_o your_o own_o devise_v which_o do_v utter_o debar_v the_o lord_n people_n which_o have_v knowledge_n of_o they_o from_o communicate_v with_o you_o in_o any_o worship_n as_o for_o example_n how_o shall_v any_o man_n partake_v with_o you_o of_o the_o word_n preach_v in_o your_o assembly_n but_o he_o must_v needs_o partake_v also_o with_o the_o false_a call_n of_o the_o 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