the way of government given by Christ Jesus the King of peace is the way of peace and righteousnesse And whereas you affirme That if the controversie touching Circumcision should have beene ended in the Church of Antiochia then parties must have beene Iudges Here you would seeme by this to make the whole Church of Antioch leavened with the Doctrine of Justification by Circumcision which to doe is a very great slander as it appeares by Paul Barnabas opposing them there and that Churches sending Paul and Barnabas to have the Churches advise at Ierusalem concerning this matter But whereas you affirme That the Church of Antiochia judged it unequall to decide the case among themselves I answer That they judged it unequall is more than is expressed in that place but if that should be granted it will make against you for their reason in sending the matter to Ierusalem was because the parties were members of the Church of Ierusalem as it appeares by Acts. â—5 1. 5. 24. The first verse sheweth that they were men of Iudea the 5th verse proves that they were Beleevers The 24th verse declares that they went out of the Church of Ierusalem unto them And by this you may see plainely that this Chapter above all the Chapters that I can finde proves Independencie upon your owne ground that the Church of Antiochia judged it an unequall thing for them to judge the members of the Church of Ierusalem And by this you may perceive how you have either erred not knowing the Scriptures or else you have done worse in labouring to darken the truth by evasions or false glosses Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you affirme That the light and Law of Nature with right reason is against the Independancie of particular Churches which is an unjust affirmation as hath beene plainely proved before in the Answer to your third Reason But a few words concerning this Reason You say it is found necessary in bodies naturall that the particular members doe joyne in one for the good of the whole and that the whole being greater than a part the severall parts should be subject too and ordered by the whole All this I have granted you freely already in the Answer to your second Reason where I have plainely proved unto you that the hands of the Church are ordered by the whole body in the Ordination of the Ministery And this is according to the very Scripture it selfe for the holy Ghost speaketh so in 1 Cor. 12. Comparing the Church of God to the naturall body of a man and therefore when the hand lanceth the foote it cannot be said properly to be the action of the hand alone because the hand is set a worke by the body neither can the body set the hand a worke if it be destitute of the power for the motion of the body commeth not from the hand but the motion of the hand from the body and thus you may see I have granted your comparison And the nearer politicke bodies doe goe to this Rule the more orderly they are guided for as all the cities and country of England make up but one Kingdome and all the people in England ought to be subject to one King so all the Independant Congregations in England and out of England that are guided by the Lawes of Christ make up but one Kingdome spiritually to him that is their King Now concerning Armies though I be very ignorant in these things yet thus much I conceive that all the Armies that belong to the Kingdome ought to be under the banner of their owne King even so all the particular Congregations of Christ are to be guided by the Lawes of their owne Captaine Christ who rideth before them with his garments dipt in blood and they follow after him riding upon white horses Revel. 19. 11 12. 13 14. We reade also in the Scripture of another armie which were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ And this armie I conceive consisteth of those Locusts which ascended out of the bottomlesse pit Rev. 9. And these as I told you before are Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Prebends c. and the rest of that rable and these also have a King over them which is the Angell of the bottomlesse pit who is said to be the great red Dragon the Devill and Sathan Rev. 12. 3. 9. and 20. 2. who gave unto this armie his power and throne and great authority Rev. 13. 2. Therefore to any Counsells that are held or Canon Lawes that are enacted by any Captaine of this armie the Churches of Christ ought not to submit though they should be commanded by any Statute Law of the Kingdome for those Statute Lawes are not according to Christs Rule but ought by all Councells of State to be repealed And whereas you say It is alledged by the Separation that hold Independancie That the Magistrate of Leyden cannot governe in Delph This I hope you will grant for I am sure the Magistrates of Coventry cannot execute their office in Shrewsbury neither can the one Towne chuse Magistrates for the other and this still proves Independencie for either of these may chuse their owne and guide their owne at all times except they forfeit their Charter Now whereas you say the people alleadge for themselves that the Law of nature teacheth them to make a Covenant though there be neither precept nor practise of it in the word I suppose you misconster their sayings for the text alleadged in Thessalonians 4â— doth not prove that brotherly love was never written of in the Scripture but that it had beene so sufficiently taught of God by written precepts that it needed not to be written againe Besides I am able to prove by the Scripture that there is both precept and practise for a Church Covenant the which I will answer you in the Answer to your 6th Reason where you begge the Question Concerning what is asserted by some Divines of Scotland That in such things as are alike common to the Church and Commonwealth and have the same use in both and that whatsoever natures light directeth the one directeth the other also You know by what hath beene formerly spoken I have fully assented unto it I also agree with Amesius as farre as he agrees with the truth but to agree with you in that falsehood that the Government of independant Churches is against the light of nature and right Reason that I have denied and disproved sufficiently already Thus having answered every particular thing in this Reason that hath not beene answered already I proceede to the Fifth IN your 5th Reason you affirme That there be many Rules in Scripture that doe require the combination of Churches into Synods for proofe whereof you say that Amesius confesseth the Rules and Commands to be such as these Let all things be done to edification decently and in order Cor. 14. 26. 40. and follow after the things which make for
THE IVSTIFICATION OF THE Independant CHVRCHES of CHRIST Being an Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his BOOKE which hee hath written against the Government of CHRISTS CHVRCH and Toleration of CHRISTS Publike Worship BRIEFELY DECLARING That the Congregations of the Saints ought not to have Dependancie in Government upon any other or direction in worship from any other than CHRIST their HEAD and LAVV-GIVER By KATHERINE CHIDLEY 1 SAM. 17. 45. Thou commest unto me with a Sword and with a Speare and with a Sheild but I come unto thee in the name of the Lord of Hoasts the God of the armies of Israel whom thou hast defied IVDGES 4. 21. Then Iael Hebers wife tooke a naile of the tent and tooke an hammer in her hand and went softly unto him and smote the naile into his temples and fastened it into the ground for he was fast asleepe and weary and so he died LONDON Printed for WILLIAM LARNAR and are to be sold at his Shop at the Signe of the Golden Anchor neere Pauls-Chaine 1641. TO The CHRISTIAN READER Grace Mercy and Peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ IT is and hath beene for a long time a Question more enquired into than well weighed Whether it be lawfull for such who are informed of the evills of the Church of England to Separate from it For my owne part considering that the Church of England is governed by the Canon Lawes the Discipline of Antichrist and altogether wanteth the Discipline of Christ and that the most of them are ignorant what it is and also doe professe to worship God by a stinted Service-Booke I hold it not onely lawfull but also the duty of all those who are informed of such evills to separate themselves from them and such as doe adhere unto them and also to joyne together in the outward profession and practise of Gods true worship when God hath declared unto them what it is and being thus informed in their minds of the knowledge of the will of God by the teaching of his Sonne Jesus Christ it is their duty to put it in practise not onely in a Land where they have Toleration but also where they are forbidden to preach or teach in the name or by the power of the Lord Jesus But Mr. Edwards with whom I have here to deale conceiving that the beauty of Christs true worship would quickly discover the Foggy darkenesse of the Antichristian devised worship and also that the glory of Christs true Discipline grounded and founded in his Word would soone discover the blacknesse and darkenesse of the Antihristian Government which the poore people of England are in bondage unto hath set his wits a work to withstand the bright comming of Christs Kingdome into the hearts of men which we are all commanded in the most absolute rule of Prayer to petition for for the turning aside whereof Mr. Edwards hath mustred up his forces even eight Reasons against the government of Christ which hee calls Independant and hath joyned unto these eight ten more which he hath made against Toleration affirming that they may not practise contrary to the course of the Nation wherein they live without the leave of the Magistrate neither judgeth he it commendable in them to aske the Magistrates leave nor commendable in the Magistrate to heare their petitions but rather seeketh to stirre up all men to disturbe their peace affirming most unjustly that they disturbe the peace of the Kingdome nay the peace of three Kingdomes which all the lands under the Kings Dominions know to be contrary nay I thinke most of the Kingdomes in Europe cannot be ignorant what the cause of the disturbance was But this is not the practise of Mr. Edwards alone but also of the whole generation of the Clergie as thou maist know Christian Reader it was the practise of the Bishop of Canterbury to exclaime against Mr Burton Doctor Bastwicke and Mr. Prynne calling them scandalous Libellers Innovators though they put their own name to that which they write and proved what they taught by divine authority and this hath beene alwayes the practise of the instruments of Sathan to accuse the Lords people for disturbing of the peace as it hath beene found in many Nations when indeede the troublers be themselves and their fathers house But in this they are like unto Athalia crying treason treason when they are in the treason themselves But for the further strengthning of his army he hath also subjoyned unto these his Answer to sixe Reasons which he saith are theirs but the forme of some of them seemeth to be of his owne making all which thou shalt finde answered and disproved in this following Treatise But though these my Answers are not laid downe in a Schollerlik way but by the plaine truth of holy Scripture yet I beseech thee have the patience to take the paynes to reade them and spare some time to consider them and if thou findest things disorderly placed laâ—our to rectifie them to thine own mind And if there be any weight in them give the glory to God but if thou feest nothing worthy attribute not the weakenesse thereof to the truth of the cause but rather to the ignorance and unskilfulnesse of the weake Instrument Thine in the Lord Jesus KATHERINE CHIDLEY THE Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his INTRODVCTION _â— Hearing the complaints of many that were godly against the Booke that Mr. Edwards hath written and upon the sight of this his Introduction considering his desperate resolution namely that he would set out severall Tractates against the whole way of Separation I could not but declare by the testimony of the Scripture it selfe that the way of Separation is the way of God who is the author of it * which manifestly appeares by his separating of his Church from the world and the world from his Church in all ages When the Church was greater than the world then the world was to be separated from the Church but when the world was greater than the Church then the Church was to separate from the world As for instance When Caine was a member of the Church then the Church was greater than the world and Caine being discovered was exempted from Gods presence * before whom he formerly had presented himselfe c but in the time of Noah when the world was greater than the Church d then Noah and his Family who were the Church were commanded to goe into the Arke e in which place they were saved when the world was drowned f yet Ham being afterward discovered was accursed of his Father and Shem was blessed and good prophesied for Iaphat Afterward when the world was grown mightier than the Church againe then Abraham was called out of Vr of the Caldeans both from his country and from his kindred and from his fathers house g because they were Idolatâ—rs to â—â—â—ship God in Canaan Moreover afterwards Moses was seâ—â— and his brother Aaron to deliver the
all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
and not the Church by the Ministers The next thing to be considered in this your Reason is your peremptory affirmation but grounded upon no Scripture namely That to set up Independant and separated Churches is a Schisme in it selfe and that it will make great disturbance in the Church both to the outward peace and to the faith and conscience of the people of the Kingdome Now that it is a Schisme in it selfe I deny and prove the contrary thus God hath commanded all his people to separate themselves from all Idolatry c and false worshipping d and false worshippers e and therefore it is no Schisme except you will make God the Author of Schisme this is according to the Prophet Esaiahs words Esay 1. which is the first Lesson that every one ought to learne even to cease to doe evill But I hope it will not be denied but that they are to learne another lesson which is to learne to doe well but to doe well is to keepe all Gods Commandements and to obey God rather then men Now Gods commands to his people is that they learne to know the forme of the house as I have told you before and all the Ordinances of the house and to doe them Ezek. 43. 11. but the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome under the Gospell amongst the rest are Doctrine Fellowship breaking of Bread and Prayer which Ordinances the Saints continued stedfastly in and are commended for their constancie in the same Acts 2. 42 and that in every particular Church or Congregation though there were divers in one Nation and yet I hope you will not affirme it was any disturbance to the Nation otherwise thâ—n Christ hath shewed shall ever be that the seed of the Serpent shall persecute the seede of the Woman for Gods people are said to be a peaceable people and the Lord himself hath said that he hath set them in the world as Lambs among Wolves Now there must needs be a disagreement betweene Lambes and Wolves but the Lambes are not the cause thereof By this you may see that Separation is not a Scisme but obedience to Gods Commandement And for any Magistrate to give way for men to separate from the worship of the Kingdome established by Law if that worship be not according to Gods Law is the Magistrates duty and the Magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because there is no sinne committed Therefore the Magistrate ought not to forbid the practise of Gods Worship when hee hath power to command it for he is set up for the practise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill â—oers And therefore you did well when you admonished the Parliament in your Epistle to cast out of the way all stambling blockes and to breake downe all Images and Crucifixes and to throw downe all 〈◊〉 and remove the High places and to breake to pieces the brazen Serpents which have beene so abused to Idolatry and Superstition So then you grant that much may be done as it seemeth by your speech and yet if there be not a full reformation even to the throwing downe of the High places it will prove a blemish to the reformers You say he that doth not forbid when he hath power he commands But I hope you doubt not but the Parliament hath power and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid by your owne ground they have or doe command But in the Protestation they have not forbidden Gods Worship which is according to his Word but they have Protested and have injoyned others so to doe to maintaine and â—â—â—end the Protestant Religion expressed in the Doctrine of the Church of England against all Popery and Popish Innovations within this Realme c. And in the Interpretation of their meaning of the said Oath they binde us neither to the â—â—t forme of Worship Discipline or Government nor any Rites or Ceremonies of the said Church of England Now if we must withstand Popery and Popish Innovations then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a whole Nation a Church both good and bad without separating the precious from the vile and also such Synods or Counsels that decree and make Lawes and impose them upon any Church to keepe having not the Word of God to warrant them for these are Popish Innovations and to be withstood by us according to our Oath And truely Mr. Edwards you might have asked the independant Ministers a question in private for you knew where to finde them and not have propounded so silly a question before the Parliament when there was none there to answer you Your Question is Whether it be fitting that well meaning Christians should be suffered to goe to make Churches To this I Answer It is fitter for well meaning Christians than for ill-meaning Christians for well-meaning Christians be the fittest on the earth to make Churches and to choose their Officers whether they be Taylors Felt-makers Button-makers Tent-makers Shepherds or Ploughmen or what honest Trade soever if they are well-meaning Christians but ill-meaning Priests are very unfit men to make Churches because what they build up with one hand they pull downe with the other Futuher you seeme to feare the sâ—reading of Heresies if there be not a biâ—drance of these Assemblies But you should rather feare that your owne glory would be eclipsed by their gifts and graces for they are not men of so meane parts as you would make them but are able to divide the Word of God aright by the spirit that God hath given them Therefore I would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for your selfe and for the evills that you have done For Christ will never suffer any to perish for whom he died Thus much for your first Reason IN your second Reason you say the Toleration desired will not helpe to beale the Schismes and Rents of your Church To which I answer that if your Church be not the Church of Christ it will not heale it indeede for though the Prophets would have healed Babel it could not be healed You say that Ministers and people will not submit to the Reformation and Government setled by Law It is very like so if it be not free from Innovations of Popery because they are sworne to the contrary But you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes that the Government of your Church is not ordered according to the Word of God To this I answer If you meane the Church of Englands Government established by the Canon Law I thinke it is out of doubt with the most for they that understand but little doe see and know that that Government is vaine and Popish and that is the reason as I conceive why so many refuse to conforme to it and if you feare that that will prove so great a division you may doe well to counsell the Magistrates to expell all such Government and to reject all such Synods and
consciences and thus you may see it taketh away no authority which God hath given to them The next thing you say is that they cannot be certaine that their servants and children sanctifie the Lords day To which I answer that indeede unbeleeving Masters take as little care of this as they that have given liberty to prophane the Lords Day but beleeving Parents and Masters may easily know if their children or servants be of any Congregation what their life and conversation is and therefore this can hinder no duties or workes of Families as you falsely affirme nor crosse the good and peace of Familes By this you may see that this your groundlesse affirmation is no good Reason against Toleration And therefore the Court of Parliament to whom you submit for judgement may easily see that good members both for Churches and Common-wealths may issue out of such Families that live under Christs government and that such Families may be good Nurseries both for Church and Common-wealth Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you doe affirme that there will be great danger of disputes amongst you about Government and Worship and Doctrine and practises in the Conclusion you say it will be about a question where Saints goe when they die whether to heaven or a third place I Answer This is a question I never heard amongst the Separates or any of those whom you call Independant men but amongst the Papists of Rome and England The next thing is about sitting with hats on to breake bread I Answer this may be a question indeed but not to breede division for it may be as lawfull for one man to sit covered another uncovered as it may be lawfull for one man to receive it sitting and another lying in bed But if any man list to be contentious the Churches of God have no such custome Thus much for your Fourth Reason IN your fifth Reason you affirme that the Ministers of the Kingdome can have little assurance of the continuance of their flockes to them if such a toleration be granted but that the tolerated Churches will admit them into fellowship and increase Churches out of their labours and that they should doe little else but spend and be spent To this I answer that if you were the Ministers of Christ as you would be taken to be it might be your comfort joy and glory for it was the Apostles worke to gather the Saints and to travell in birth of children and they did not grudge that they were added unto the Churches of Christ but tooke care for them being so added for the care of all Churches lay upon them and therefore they were as Fathers and Nurses unto them and the Gospell admits of no such theft as to steale away members from other Churches but if men draw neere to the truth which never were members of any Church and offer themselves to joyne unto us we may admit them upon good experience of their life and conversation for those members that travelled from one Church to another were commended unto those Churches by Letters from the Church where they were members or else they could not have beene admitted and thus you may see the way of the Gospell admits of no such disorder Now whereas you say that this Toleration upon any light occasion of demanding dues or preaching against any thing they like not opens a wide doore and will invite them to disert their Ministers I answer by demanding of that which you call dues you may indeede give just occasion for you may demand for due that which is not due as all the Priests of England doe Likewise by preaching of Doctrine you may give just occasion if you justifie the wicked and condemne the just and make sad the hearts of those whom God would not have made sad and then if your people flye from you you may thanke your selves but concerning what you count to be your due I will declare hereafter * Thus much for your fifth Reason NOw in the beginning of your sixth Reason you say that liberty will be an undoubted meanes and way of their infinite multiplication and increase even to thirty fould Truely I thinke you are afraid as Pharaoh was least the Lords people should grow mightier then you Next you say if the Parliament could like to have more of the breede of them and have a delight to have multitudes exempted from the Ecclesiasticall Lawes of the Land c. I answer it is no disgrace to the Parliament if they should so delight though never Parliament before had done the like Moreover you say they have increased within this nine moneths without a toleration therefore you conclude they would multiply much if they had a toleration in many if not in most Townes and Parishes and â—ou say it cannot be helped All this I grant may be although they have not a Toleration I thinke they will increase for the Taskemasters can lay no heavier burthens upon them then they have laid already but though they should increase it will not be unprofitable for the increase of beleevers will be the strength and glory of the Kingdome for they will in all lawfull things be subject to the Kings Majestie their dread Soveraigne and to all the wholesome Lawes of his Land and therefore it will be no danger to have as you say swarmes of them Thus much for your Sixth Reason IN your 7th Reason you affirme that it will be very preâ—udiciall dangerous and insufferable to this Kingdome for Saints two or three or more to gather and combine themselves in Church Fellowship having one â—â— power from Christ their immediate heade without expecting warrant from any Governors First whereas you say it will be prejudiciall I answer It can prejudice none in the Kingdome except it be the Priests and it will be but of a little tithes which they dare not in conscience pay because those Iewish Ceremonies are ceased and if they have not Toleration that will be all one in that respect for they will rather suffer then doe any thing against conscience Now whereas you say it will be dangerous and insufferable to the Kingdome both these I deny for if they were offensive people two or three or a few could doe but little hurt But they have beene proved to be a peaceable people and the suffering of such hath never beene dangerous to any Nation but the not suffering of such to live quietly in a Land or to passe quietly thorow a land hath brought Judgements upon such Lands Now whereas you seeme to imply that they should aske leave of the Magistrate to gather and combine themselves into visible Churches c. I answer I doe not reade that any ever asked leave of the Magistrate for such a thing nor to performe any of the parts of Gods Worship or Discipline and yet you confesse that these independant men doe petition to the Parliament for liberty * Now I pray
the 2 Pet. 2. 2. That many shall follow their destruction and some of them shall doe it through covetousnesse who shall with fained words make merchandise of the Lords people as is plaine in the next verse whose destruction sleepeth not But who these creepers in be appeares by the 15. verse of this Chapter That they were they that loved the wages of unrighteousnesse as Balaam did But if any one so doe his last end shall be worse ' then his beginning Thus much for your ninth Reason IN your Tenth Reason you affirme That the first principle of the Independant way is That two or three Saints wheresoever or by what meanes soever they doe arise separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the Gospell are a Church truely gathered for this you quete Mr. Robinsons Iustification pag. 221. But in that page there is no such thing written as I can finde but seeing it commeth so neere the truth we neede not to contend about it For I doe affirme that a company of Saints Separated from the world and gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell by what meanes so ever it be that matters not so it be by the teaching of the Sonne of God according to that in Heb. 1. 1. these Saints I say separating themselves and being gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell though they combine themselves without the warrant of the Governours are a true Church and have right to all Gods Ordinances not onely to admit men into fellowship but also to admonish to reprove and to cast out of their societie all obstinate offenders amongst them that doe transgresse either against the first or second Table having as hath beene said before the Spirit of God to guide them and wisedome from above to judge of persons and causes within the Church though they have nothing to doe to judge those that are without And this doth not make way for Libertisnime for Heresies and Sectaries as you say neither doth it make men to runne from their owne Ministers because they restraine them from sinne or keepe them to Gods Ordinances as you doe affirme for if any separate for any such cause they shall not be received into fellowship nor justified of any of the Lords people But the way of the Gospell as hath beene plainely proved is not to live without Gods Ordinances nor to live at liberty as you say except you meane the liberty wherein Christ hath set them and commanded them to stand fast because he hath made them free Gal. 5. 1. By this you may see the Saints are called into liberty but not a liberty to sinne as you would insinuate but to be freed from the yoake of bondage which is the tyranny or tyrannicall government of the Canon Lawes either of Rome or England But you say all heretickes Sectaries or libertines will count themselves Saints as well as the Independant men and the reason you seeme to give for this is because the Ministers and Magistrats of the Kingdome shall not have power to determine who be Saints * Now let all men judge what a weighty argument this is who is he that knows any thing knows not this that the Priests in England which are the Bishops creatures do generally justifie the wicked and condemne the just and are not these meet men to judge Saints they justifie none that will not be conformable and yeeld unto the traditions which they have invented in their Councels and Convocations though they have not one title of Gods Word to warrant them Furthermore they condemne all that will not submit to their devised worship even in all the traditions thereof and this is the dependancie which they have brought all men unto both high and low even to be subject to their wills which is a Law But now touching the Magistrate you would seeme to inferre that he should have no more power than a Priest It is plaine the Priests have no power but what they have by permission and sufferance though they have dependancie upon the Pope himselfe but the Magistrate hath power given him of God by whom he is set up for the praise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill doers and hath the same rule given him whereby to judge them that God hath given to his Church especially Christian Magistrates notwithstanning they are opposed yet they have power given of God as you may reade in Acls 7 35. This man Moses whom they forsooke saying who maâ—e thee a Prince and a Iudge the same God sent for a Prince and a deliverer and this is he which was as a God unto Aaron when Aaron was as the mouth of Moses to the people Exod. 4. 16. Now if you Priests could have proved your selves as Aaron then you might have beene assistants to Godly Magistrates to deliver the Lords people out of the hands of Tyrannicall Princes but contrariwise you adde afflictions as Pharaohs Taskemasters did even you Mr. Edwards when you say the Lords people are wanton-witted and idle when they desire to have liberty to serve God And thus you sit in the consciences of men judging zeale to be hypocrisie but the time will come when every worke shall be brought to judgement And now drawing neere to an end of this Answer to your tenth Reason which is the last of this your joyned army it is good to looke backe a little and consider what hath beene said You have spoken much for Dependencie but upon whom you doe depend I cannot tell You labour to bring men into doubts by your suppositions but you doe not make any conclusion which is Gods way that men fearing God may expect a blessing when they walke in it but you cry out for Dependencie upon Councels and Synods and Churches I pray you what Dependencie hath the Church of England upon any other Church for I suppose you will say that all the Land is but one Church If you say that you have Dependencie upon the Church of Rome I doe beleeve you for the Bishop of Canterbury hath said so much in his booke where hee confesseth Rome to be as leprous Naaman and England to be the same Naaman cleansed Now that it is the same may easily be proved by divers of your owne Authors But you in your Epistle affirme it is not cleansed in that place where you say that there is yet Altars and Images brasen Serpents abused to Idolatry with divers other things which you would have purged out By this it appeares that it is the same with Rome in the very nature of it though not in every Circumstance and this for any thing can be discerned is the Dependancie for which you pleade even the Dependancie and affinitie betweene Rome and England Therefore you should rather have said That in the belly of this Dependancie doth lurke all liberty and heresie and whatsoever Sathan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach For in that
and though it be not in exsise for victuals yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of Holland are freed The next thing you affirme is That your riches and strength standeth in one way of Religion To which I answer I thinke if I could understand your minde herein you meane the riches and strength of the Priests for I am sure the riches and strength of the Kingdome may stand best with Toleration as it may appeare partly by what hath been said already for you have heard that the Lords people whom you thus persecute maintaine their owne poore And it will also be made appeare that they pay Scot and Lot in the Kingdome in all civill respects and are all as true subjects to the Kings Majesty and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies and estates as any in the Kingdome But I confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the Priests for it is sore against the peoples will that they pay them any thing now and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare what the Priests wages iâ— * but that shall be done hereafter THeir third Reason you say is That if they have not liberty to erect some Congregations it will force them to leave the Kingdome For answer whereof you doe affirme in the first place that there is no neede of a toleration for them neither that they should leave the Kingdome for conscience and that you say will appeare by the Reasons and principles which they doe agree to which you say are these First that they hold your Churches true your Ministers true Ordinances true Further you say they can partake with you in your Congregations in all Ordinances even to the Lords Supper To which I answer Indeede here you would make the Readers beleeve that they had opened a wide gappe if they should take your affirmation without your provisall but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely in that you say their condition was that it must first be provided that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe and Cerimonies must be removed Methinks this is a mighty great mountaine that stands between them and you and therefore you have small cause to aske them wherfore they should desire to set up Churches fortill this mountaine be removed they may be true to their own principles and not go from their word and yet never communicate with you either in worship or government For first If you keepe out all scandalous persons out of all the Churches in England from the Sacraments and all ignorant persons truely then your Churches will be as emptie as ours Secondly If you should remove away all your Ceremonies which is the second part of your reformation you could not tell how to worship for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented Ceremonies But if you can procure such a reformation to have your Church all consist of persons of knowledge fearing God and â—ating covetousnesse void of all other scandalls so far as we can judge by the Scripture and that the Ceremonies may be removed and we enjoy as you bragge all Gods Ordinances with you as well as in our owne Churches then you shall heare what I will say to you as well as the Independant men But till all this be done you see there is still good reason for good men either to desire liberty or to leave the Kingdome Further you say some of them could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst you upon the Reformation I Answer Indeede such a Reformation which you have formerly mentioned will hardly stand with Parochiall Churches But you say they could yeeld to Presbyteriall Government by Classes and Synods so they might not be injoyned to submit to it as Jure Divino To which I answer It seemes by your owne confession that they doe deny the Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be from God as it appeares in that you say they will not submit to it as Iure Divino and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe in all this your reasoning with your Synods and Classes also so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a Toleration that the Saints may grow into bodies even in this Land But to grow into one body with you as you would have them while your Churches body is like a Leopard and all bespotted as appeares by your words were very absurd for you â—â—â—e affirme that the best of your members even the Professors especially of London and of the great Townes in England are very fâ—â—le yet I hope you will confesse that they are the best of your members then if it be true as you say that you must remove in your Reformation all ignorant and scandalous persons by your grounds you should have but a very few to make a Church of as well as wee For you must remove also all your Professors which you say are so scandalous Therefore I should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done and be reconciled to God the Father and Christ his Sonne and separate your selves from all your wickednesse and even come and grow up into one body with us Secondly you say Seeing your Churches Ministers and Ordinances be true the erecting of new and withdrawing from such Congregations can never be answered to God I answer Here you take for granted that which you cannot prove and it is your wisdome so to doe for by that meanes you may make simple people beleeve that you are very right except a few defects which no man shall be freed from while he is in this life But now to the point and first touching your Churches and Ministers which you say be true and you also say the Independant men would grant them to be true upon a Reformation such as the Word requires I tell you for answer that this your juggling will not helpe you for no man is bound to take your bare word therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said But before you goe to prove your Churches true declare unto me what Churches you meane for I ever tooke the whole Land of England to be but one Church as it stands established by the Canon Laws and that all the Parishes in the Land make up but one entire body therefore what is amisse in one Parish all the whole are guilty of and it will be laid to the charge of the Archbishops who are the Metropolitanes or chiefe Priests over the Church of the Land Seeing it is so you must stand out to maintaine your Church and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your Church-es for I know no dependancie you have upon any except it be Rome according as I have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth Reason against Independencie Therefore this is the Church that you must maintaine even the Church of England established
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel
the diffierence betweene these Fathers * Moreover you seeme to inferre that because Siprian whom you confesse erred in the point of rebaptizing would not condemne them who were of a contrary opinion that therefore men may be tolerated in their differences of opinions But here you have brought an erring Father by your owne confession to perswade us to keepe communion with those that are contrary minded but the Apostle exhorteth us to labour to be of one minde that we may walke by one rule but if any be otherwise minded we ought to waite till God reveile further and not to force him to be of our minde till he hath faith in himselfe grounded upon the Word of God But that ground which you have that men should be tolerated in their differences of opinions is built upon the sayings of this Father Ciprian But presently you come with your provisall which hath quite altered the Case your provisall is they may be tolerated so long as they keepe communion with the Church and submit to the Discipline and orders and be peaceable and not speake against what is established by common consent nor practise to the scandall and contempt of the Magistrate and Church I answer this is but even a crossing of your owne speech againe for this constraining of men to yeeld to whatsoever is established by common consent is but a forcing of men to change their minds which you said before was the cause of Schismes and strifes and though you approve not of it in others yet it seemes you could freely practise it your selfe as may plainely appeare by what you speake hereafter which is the very same thing which you have often spoke already that is If a few men halfe a dozen or halfe a score refuse communion with your Church and vent opinions every where to the disturbing of the Kingdome and drawing disciples after them though they were Ministers of gold and had the tongues of men and Angels they should not be tolerated Now you have strucke up the stroke but it will not serve your turne for this your vaine insinuation that they disturbe the Kingdome and draw Disciples after them haâ—h beene many a time disproved already because it hath beene oftentimes repeated by you to fill up your matter nay your owne words have disproved your selfe where you say they will not receive them into fellowship except they be of their mindes * But further you say you would have us to reade Calvin upon that subject in his last Epistle to Felerius The matter you say is this that if He would not be reduced into order the Ministers should tell him that he is not to be accounted as a brother because he disturbed the common discipline What the Disciscipline was that he disturbed I cannot tell but you say it was a Discipline that was common which makes it appeare to mee that it was like your Booke-worship or your Common Prayer-booke which is common as farre as the Pope hath any preheminence or jurisdiction and that you confesse this Common Discipline was not the Discipline of God neither a Discipline that you approve of appeares by your owne words That you judge it not of God appeares here in your following words where you grant this to be the authority of men and that it is not to be sought after it c. and you know the things that they decreed was that he that would not submit to the Synod must be put out of his place and you say that you would not have any cast out of the Ministery or Church because it breedeth Schismes * and by this it appeares that you allow not of this manner of Discipline and by this one may also plainely see that you are made all of contradictions as it may plainely appeare in the very next words following where you conclude that the authority of men is not to be sought when the Spirit of God pronounceth of such c. and here you quote the 1 Cor. 11. 19. where you would make Paul an author of casting men out of their places because they would not yeeld to the Synod I pray you hath Paul in this Chapter discoursed of any such thing was not the controversie here about long haire about which Paul saith the Church hath no such custome of contention and doth not Paul himselfe put the thing to be judged by the Church in the thirteenth verse where he saith Iudge in your selves Is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered and further in the 14th verse Doth not nature it selfe teach us that if a man have long haire it is a shame unto him and was not this Doctrine grounded in the Law and Prophets and confirmed and established by God long before the Apostles time yes surely it was and therefore it will not serve your turne to prove that Synods may decree Customes for the Church of God but it will serve your turne to prove what you desire that is a dependancie betweene Rome and England and that the Bishops of Rome and England by their Synods should make all their shavelings to crouch and submit and bow to their injunctions for your owne practises prove it by your very submitting be it never so contrary to the Law of God and of Nature it selfe if it be but confirmed by a Synod and therefore it appeares that it is your malignity of spirit which causeth you to write as you doe But you say you doe it from a zeale But I tell you it is a zeale against Gods glory and the good of his Church and against the preservation of puritie of Doctrine and holinesse of life even at the best like unto the zeale which Paul had before hee knew Christ when he went with Letters from the high Priest to peâ—secute the Church of God and when he was their Pursevant to enter into houses and to hale men and women to prison * if Paul should have said for himselfe as you would now pleade for your selfe that peace could not stand with toleration and therefore it was meete to disturbe their meetings it would not have served his turne for if God had not stricken him downe in the way he should never have seene the Lord Jesus but to his confusion though he was a man every way as well informed as your selfe Yea â—e might have pleaded as well as you that he did it not out of passion but that he had thoughts of the Church way before for you may know that Paul was a member of the Church of the Jewes which was erected by God and was zealous for the Law and mighty in knowledge being brought up at the feete of Gamaliel * and also a free borne Roman * and yet he neither knew Christ * nor what Christ would have him to doe * but hee thought other wayes of himselfe or else he would not have persecuted the professors of the truth but that hee imagined there was evill in the
practise of the truth even as you say you apprehend evill in the practise of Independancie though they see it not that practise it because say you they are ingaged in it but it was ignorance in Paul so to thinke and so at the best it is ignorance in you Therefore you have no neede to say that you see more evill in it then the Independants can doe but you should rather have said you seeme to see for you cannot see an evill where none is But you wish that the Independant Ministers would consider what hath beene written I answer Indeede for my part if their considerations be as mine and though they consider it as I doe without partialitie yet they will finde nothing in it to perswade them to lay aside all thoughts of setting up separated Assemblies which hath beene plainely proved to be the way of God much lesse that they should come and grow into one body and joyne in one way with you so long as you have so foule a body which you confesse you have and your way so contrary to the way of Christ being indeede away of your owne devising And touching the counsell of Mr Calvin to this purpose I say If he should counsell as you counsell it would be to me but a as blast of breath for we are to take the councell of the holy Ghost by the mouth of Paul which bids us follow him as hee followes Christ But you would have us to consider what Paul requires in a Pastor of which things you say this is not the least that hee ought not to be selfe-willed that is say you to be adicted to his owne proper judgement I answer I have considered this text already and doe conceive that this rule of Paul is broken by the Pope of Rome and the Popes of England which are adicted to their owne wills and set up their own proper judgements for a Law which evill and error Paul saw in his time when he said the mystery of iniquitie began then to worke Moreover I do acknowledge that it is a vertue in a goâ—d Pastor from his heart to feare contentions and not to differ from his brethren â—nlesse it â—e in cases greatly necessary but what is all this which you have said to the matter in hand you know Paul spake to the Churches planted in the order of Christs Gospell and not by the order of the man of Sin and therefore it will not help you to call them againe to consider what they may enjoy in your Church for I have proved it plainely before in my reply to your Answer to their third Reason that a Saint of God can injoy no thing in your Church without sinne and therefore what you thinke you have shewed before in your three first Reasons is nothing at all for though you say it is but some circumstances that be wanting about the manner and forme of Discipline I tell you you want the substance even Christ to be the head of your Churche and have made you a head of Archbishops and Lord Bishops which head is full of leprosie But here you have brought Mr. Calvin to crosse you shrewdly and you would have us to beleeve him and indeed with my heart I beleeve it whether Mr. Calvin speake it or no you say he affirmes that the Scriptures expresse the substance of discipline this is very true but in another place you say that Calvin said there is no expresse precept concerning this matter And the like you rehearse presently in your next words for you say he affirmeth that the forme of exercising it must be ordained by the Ministers for edification because it is not prescribed by the Lord Doth not Clavin and you both crosse your selves here hath Christ indeede written in his Word the substance of Discipline and not the forme you would make indeed the substance of discipline without forme and voide even as the earth it selfe was when darkenes was upon the face of the deepe so you would have men conceive there is a substance but they must have no rule to know where to finde it for you say the forme of exercising it is not prescribed Here you would make Christ wanting to his owne house for we know that Moses had the forme of the house as well as the substance of the house and the forme of every Ordinance with every circumstance that was to be used in and about Gods worship and the forme was given unto Moses by God himselfe and Moses had not power to alter any thing in the forme neither had any of the Ministers which came after him but the wicked Priests did alter the forme and Apostated from the truth of those Ordinances taught by Moses even so the wicked Antichristians apostated from the forme of wholsome words given by Paul which was to follow him as he followed Christ And also from the rule of our Saviour Christ given to all his Apostles that they should teach the people what he commanded them Matth 28. 20. And this you may see was not onely in substance but in forme also for Paul expresseth to the Corinthims the very forme of breaking of bread which he had received of the Lord Jesus * and by this you may see you have given the holy Ghost the lie even as Calvin also affirming that the forme of exercising it is not presribed by the Lord and therefore I would have you Mr. Edwards to take the Counsell your selfe that you give unto others for it is very good counsell First that you please not your selfe in your owne Opinions Secondly that you be not so adicted to your owne judgement but remember the danger that Calvin laies downe here that a man being wedded to his owne Judgement so soone as ever an Ocation offers it self will be a Schismaticke and I have told you already that this was the first occasion of Schisme and Apostacie from the truth of the Gospels worship that being darke in their mindes and judgeing the substance of Gods worship to be without forme and as they them selves so presuming tooke upon them to prescribe a forme themselves so they being wedded to their owne judgement did Schisme from the truth of the Scripture Thus you say you have delivered your owne soule But to whom or from what you have delivered it I cannot tell But you say further you hope the brethren will withdraw their petitions that they may not be reade in the honourable house of Commons but if they should be read you say you hope the House will cast them out * I Answer That they should withdraw their Petitions is but one of your vaine hopes for they had more neede now to petion then ever they had both to God and men seeing such a Goliah as you musters up so many forces against them But the later of these your vaine hopes doth manifest the malice of your heart in that you hope the house will cast their peâ—itions out Are
by the Canon Laws consisting of Archbishops Diocesan Bishops with all the rest of that erew for this is indeed both your Church and Ministry which doth appeare by your owne ground because you affirme that in this part lieth all the power but by your owne grounds the whole body of the Land I meane of the Laitie as you call them hath no power at all to reforme any abuse therfore this Clergy must needs be your Church and thus you make your selves the head and body and all the rest of the Land the â—ayle to follow after you Now if you can prove this to be a true Church which hath neither ground nor footing in Christs Testament you will worke wonders but indeede such wonders have been wrought by you for all the world hath wondered and runne after the beast saying Who is like unto him and who is able to make warre with him as you may plainely see in the 13. of the Reveation Therefore they that doe justifie such a Church are such as have beene deceived by her false miracles even by the fire which she hath made to come downe from heaven I pray you did not fire come downe from heaven in Queene Maries time and devour the Saints in Smithfield if you understand heaven in that place as I understand it to be the seate of the Magistrate you must grant the same for they are called Gods and the children of the most high For your forefathers did as Pilaâ— did wash their hands from the blood of the Saints and of the innocent and turned them over for their sentence of condemnation to the Secular power which you made your hornes and your heads pushed them forward to execute your bloody cruelty and thus you may see that fire came downe from heaven in the sight or apprehension of men for most that beheld it thought it was just because it was the sentence of the Magistrate And by this all men may see that you of the Clergie are the Church of England and that this Clergy came from Rome and that therefore your Church is derived from Rome Now if you would know whence the Church of Rome was derived I conceive that her power was derived from the beast with seven heads which rose up out of the sea as you may read of in the thirteenth of the Revelations for there both those beasts are mentioned and also the Image of the first beast which the second beast hath caused to be made which is even here in England amongst us and you may see I have proved unto you already what it is as you may also read in the 15. verse of that Chapter it was that to whom the beast gave a spirit and also he gave it power that it should speake and cause as many as would not worship the Image of the beast to be killed and hath not this Image caused aboundance to be killed in England and hath not he caused all to receive his marke or his name or the number of his name and they that have it not may neither buy nor sell as it is apparant by the testimonie of the Scripture it selfe and wofull experience And is not this Image the Church that now you â—leade for which consisteth of all the Priests of England if it be not I pray you tell me what it is But if this be it as it appeares it is then these are your Ministers also and then it hath beene proved plainely whence this your Church and Ministry came And that any of understanding should grant this Church and Ministry to be a true Church and Ministery would bewray great ignorance in them Further you adde that they acknowledge the Ordinances to be true In this I doe beleeve you upon your bare word for it is a truth if you meane Gods Ordinances which you have amongst you As first you have the Scripture but you wring it and wrest it according to your owne devices and make of it a nose of waxe and a leaden rule to leane which way your minde leadeth you and though you ought to take that reede or rod in your hand at all times if you were Gods messengers to measure both the Temple and the Altar and the worshippers Rev. 11. 2 yet you have not learned that skill for your Church and Ministrie holdeth no correspondencie with that measuring line but contrariwise you have taken that golden cup and filled it full of abominations â—ay you have hacked it and mangled it to peeces and made it into little lessons which you call your Epistles and Gospells they are Dedicated to your Saints upon your Saints-Dayes and thus you may see though you have the Scriptures which is the Word of God and take upon you to unfold the mysteries thereof yet in stead of that you darken the truth by false glosses Secondly you have the Sacraments even baptisme and breaking of breade but you pervert them both to your owne destruction neverthelesse they still remaine Gods Ordinances even as the golden vessells were Gods vessels when they were in Babel though Belsâ—azar made them his quaâ—â—ing boules yet still they remained to be Gods vessels Even so did Circumcision remaine Gods Ordinance though it was with Ieroboâ—â— The like may be said of Baptisme it still remaines Gods Ordinance though it be carried away with backâ—sliding Antichristians even the Apostate fallen stats and so you may read in the eleventh of the Revelation ver. 2. that the court must be left out and be unmeasured and the reason was because it was given to the Gentiles even to them that should tread downe the holy citie for 42. monethes this court we know belonged to the Temple as you may read in the 42. of Ezekiel and had in it the Ordinances belonging to the people And although you have Baptisme and the Lords Supper they will not sanctifie you though they may be sanctified to the use of them amongst you which are Gods people according to the election of grace And though you have some of Gods Ordinances amongst you yet you have added unto them many Ordinances of your owne devising which doth utterly debarre the Lords people which have knowledge of them from communicating with you in any worship As for example How shall any man partake with you of the word preached in your assemblies but he must needs partake also with the false calling of the Priest by which it is preached for none else are suffered to preach amongst you by your leave or approbation but they that preach by that false power And who shall receive the Sacraments with you and not justifie your devised Service-booke for all your things are administred by that And as all the Lords Ordinances ought to be sanctified by the Word of God and prayer So on the contrarie you labour to sanctifie your things by the stinted service-booke and therefore the withdrawing from you may be answered to God Further you beare the world in hand that you