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kingdom_n church_n heaven_n peter_n 4,199 5 7.9041 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A85314 Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1652 (1652) Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624 107,263 123

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witty_a speech_n of_o he_o let_v the_o elder_n keep_v the_o key_n and_o the_o people_n the_o keyclog_n it_o prove_v so_o too_o often_o what_o our_o divine_n have_v say_v about_o it_o be_v well_o know_v i_o think_v they_o have_v batter_v this_o notion_n pretty_a well_o augustine_n sometime_o be_v quote_v for_o this_o opinion_n but_o i_o be_o confident_a it_o be_v never_o in_o augustine_n thought_n in_o evan._n joan._n tract_n 50._o tract_n 124._o i_o be_o mistake_v if_o he_o be_v not_o rather_o for_o the_o catholic_n church_n by_o his_o word_n especial_o in_o the_o latter_a place_n quote_v not_o mention_v what_o other_o divine_n have_v speak_v there_o be_v two_o or_o three_o thing_n that_o have_v make_v i_o doubt_v of_o this_o so_o as_o i_o never_o do_v thorough_o close_a with_o this_o notion_n when_o i_o be_v but_o a_o private_a member_n of_o a_o church_n 1._o that_o which_o be_v the_o primum_fw-la subjectum_fw-la be_v the_o proprium_fw-la subjectum_fw-la none_o doubt_n of_o this_o 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liberty_n yet_o he_o so_o order_v their_o liberty_n that_o our_o minister_n will_v be_v glad_a if_o they_o have_v their_o church_n govern_v as_o be_v the_o church_n whereof_o himself_o together_o with_o mr._n na._n rogers_n be_v officer_n these_o be_v congregationall_a man_n schismate_fw-la de_fw-fr schismate_fw-la i_o will_v not_o rehearse_v what_o i_o find_v in_o camero_n because_o he_o write_v before_o these_o time_n and_o will_v be_v reckon_v for_o a_o presbyterian_a four_o ground_n he_o give_v for_o separation_n none_o of_o which_o i_o be_o sure_a our_o separatist_n can_v allege_v 1._o grievous_a and_o intolerable_a persecution_n 2._o when_o the_o church_n be_v heretical_a 3._o when_o idolatry_n be_v set_v up_o 4._o when_o the_o church_n be_v the_o seat_n of_o antichrist_n i_o shall_v conclude_v with_o a_o speech_n of_o he_o ut_fw-la nihil_fw-la aequè_fw-la arguit_fw-la ingenium_fw-la spiritus_fw-la christi_fw-la ac_fw-la studium_fw-la conservandae_fw-la societatis_fw-la &_o 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with_o the_o separatist_n i_o shall_v now_o take_v a_o short_a view_n of_o the_o agreement_n and_o difference_n that_o be_v with_o and_o between_o the_o classical_a and_o congregational_a divine_n and_o then_o shall_v make_v bold_a to_o present_v a_o humble_a request_n to_o the_o congregational_a divine_n 1._o do_v the_o classical-brethren_n stand_v for_o all_o the_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n as_o pray_v preach_a sacrament_n discipline_n &_o c_o so_o do_v the_o congregational-brethren_n 2._o do_v the_o classical-brethren_n stand_v for_o christ_n officer_n pastor_n sach_v er_n ruling-elders_a deacon_n allow_v such_o and_o only_o such_o o_o do_v the_o congregational-brethren_n they_o agree_v in_o worship_n and_o in_o officer_n 3._o do_v the_o classical-brethren_n hold_v to_o the_o old_a doctrine_n of_o faith_n repentanee_n hold_v up_o the_o preach_n of_o the_o law_n in_o its_o method_n to_o prepare_v before_o faith_n to_o guide_v after_o faith_n so_o do_v the_o congregational-brethren_n 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of_o the_o people_n answ_n i_o shall_v desire_v also_o to_o propound_v these_o question_n first_o will_v you_o not_o if_o now_o church_n be_v constitute_v give_v the_o people_n this_o liberty_n that_o if_o any_o can_v bring_v in_o good_a testimony_n against_o a_o man_n who_o be_v to_o be_v receive_v into_o the_o church_n that_o they_o shall_v do_v it_o and_o if_o the_o thing_n be_v prove_v will_v not_o you_o refuse_v to_o admit_v such_o a_o one_o second_o if_o it_o now_o come_v to_o cast_v out_o of_o a_o member_n will_v not_o you_o give_v liberty_n to_o any_o of_o the_o brethren_n who_o shall_v first_o ask_v you_o leave_v to_o speak_v in_o a_o sober_a grave_a way_n propound_v some_o question_n to_o the_o clear_n of_o the_o case_n in_o hand_n before_o the_o people_n join_v with_o you_o in_o cut_v off_o a_o member_n i_o say_v will_v not_o you_o give_v this_o liberty_n three_o will_v you_o excommunicate_v renitente_fw-la ecclesiâ_fw-la
any_o power_n invest_v with_o authority_n but_o if_o they_o enjoin_v a_o thing_n to_o be_v do_v and_o it_o be_v refuse_v that_o authority_n will_v reach_v further_o authoritas_fw-la cogit_fw-la as_o be_v the_o kind_n of_o the_o authority_n civil_a or_o ecclesiastical_a bless_a burrough_n in_o answer_v to_o that_o which_o some_o will_v have_v 44._o iren._n p._n 44._o scil_n that_o a_o synod_n may_v formal_o excommunicate_v because_o by_o excommunication_n they_o i.e._n heretical_a church_n be_v put_v out_o of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o christ_n into_o the_o kingdom_n of_o satan_n and_o this_o will_v terrify_v say_v consider_v whether_o this_o be_v not_o do_v before_o and_o that_o with_o a_o authority_n of_o christ_n by_o those_o former_a six_o thing_n mention_v in_o the_o page_n before_o for_o heretical_a congregation_n or_o person_n be_v judge_v and_o declare_v in_o a_o solemn_a ordinance_n by_o the_o officer_n of_o christ_n gather_v together_o in_o his_o name_n to_o be_v such_o as_o 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congregation_n though_o you_o have_v proceed_v to_o non-communion_n they_o regard_v it_o not_o but_o still_o go_v on_o in_o their_o heresy_n and_o leaven_n other_o to_o that_o they_o will_v say_v what_o do_v they_o care_v for_o your_o excommunication_n if_o all_o the_o heretic_n in_o england_n be_v excommunicate_v they_o will_v not_o care_v but_o go_v on_o still_o indeed_o our_o new_a england_n divine_n will_v teach_v we_o a_o way_n how_o to_o help_v it_o viz._n if_o a_o synod_n have_v declare_v against_o a_o heretical_a congregation_n be_v pertinacious_a and_o so_o have_v proceed_v to_o non-communion_n they_o will_v call_v in_o the_o civil_a power_n to_o help_v and_o so_o they_o have_v a_o way_n to_o help_v by_o their_o non-communion_n and_o this_o must_v be_v the_o help_n of_o they_o though_o they_o be_v excommunicate_v this_o mr._n norton_n intimate_v 58._o resp_n ad_fw-la apol._n 148_o key_n 50_o iren._n c._n 4._o mr._n marshal_n relate_v that_o zuinglius_fw-la in_o a_o public_a dispute_n do_v so_o stop_v the_o mouth_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n that_o they_o appear_v to_o the_o magistrate_n unreasonable_o obstinate_a be_v banish_v d_o the_o city_n defen_n ag_n tomb._n 58._o ecclesiae_fw-la appellant_n magistratum_fw-la in_o causis_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la non_fw-la ad_fw-la doctrinam_fw-la declarandam_fw-la vel_fw-la disciplinam_fw-la exequendam_fw-la sed_fw-la ad_fw-la doctrinam_fw-la a_o cencilio_fw-la declaratam_fw-la vel_fw-la disciplinam_fw-la ab_fw-la ecclesiâ_fw-la applicatam_fw-la sanctione_n civili_fw-la confirmandam_fw-la the_o dury_n which_o mr._n cotton_n show_v to_o lie_v upon_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n infer_v as_o much_o as_o also_o mr._n burrough_n and_o thus_o it_o be_v in_o new_a england_n when_o the_o synod_n at_o which_o the_o civil_a power_n be_v present_a as_o to_o hear_v so_o to_o keep_v civil_a order_n have_v consute_v and_o condemn_v the_o error_n and_o heresy_n and_o so_o be_v break_v up_o than_o a_o general_n court_n be_v call_v which_o soon_o suppress_v those_o heresy_n and_o bring_v the_o church_n to_o peace_n again_o if_o the_o civil_a power_n will_v do_v as_o much_o here_o we_o shall_v soon_o see_v our_o church_n in_o better_a order_n what_o civil_a magistrate_n have_v do_v in_o this_o ease_n before_o i_o need_v not_o mention_v book_n be_v full_a it_o be_v true_a the_o church_n be_v when_o there_o be_v no_o civil_a power_n to_o defend_v they_o but_o oppose_v they_o but_o we_o can_v find_v how_o many_o heresy_n and_o schism_n they_o be_v then_o trouble_v with_o shall_v the_o church_n be_v in_o no_o better_a case_n under_o a_o christian_a civil_a power_n nursing-fathers_n then_o at_o that_o time_n 6_o do_v the_o classical_a godly_a man_n look_v upon_o their_o congregation_n have_v visible_a saint_n among_o they_o to_o be_v true_a visible_a church_n so_o do_v the_o congregationall_a man_n judge_v they_o also_o i_o give_v instance_n before_o 7_o will_v then_o the_o classical_a brethren_n have_v their_o member_n be_v such_o as_o have_v right_a to_o the_o ordinance_n to_o partake_v with_o congregational_a church_n in_o the_o lord_n supper_n to_o show_v their_o communion_n certain_o so_o they_o ought_v but_o why_o congegationall_a man_n do_v refuse_v godly_a man_n member_n of_o classical_a church_n not_o admit_v they_o to_o the_o lord_n supper_n when_o they_o have_v desire_v it_o be_v very_o strange_a to_o i_o i_o wish_v our_o reverend_a brethren_n will_v give_v we_o solid_a ground_n for_o this_o practice_n for_o it_o give_v offence_n and_o that_o just_o this_fw-mi just_o preface_n to_o survey_v ch_n this_fw-mi mr._n hooker_n and_o 266._o and_o iren._n p._n 266._o mr._n burrough_n have_v both_o say_v they_o shall_v be_v admit_v shall_v a_o church_n be_v acknowledge_v to_o be_v a_o true_a church_n where_o doctrine_n and_o worship_n be_v pure_a also_o this_o person_n a_o member_n of_o it_o a_o visible_a saint_n it_o may_v be_v a_o real_a saint_n and_o shall_v he_o be_v deny_v communion_n 8_o for_o 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