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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85314	Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1652 (1652)	Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624	107,263	123

witty speech of him Let the Elders keep the keyes and the people the keyclog it proves so too often What our Divines have said about it is well knowne I thinke they have battered this notion pretty well Augustine sometime is quoted for this opinion but I am confident it was never in Augustines thoughts In Evan. Joan. Tract 50. Tract 124. I am mistaken if he be not rather for the Catholick Church by his words especially in the latter place quoted not mentioning what other Divines have spoken there are two or three things that have made me doubt of this so as I never did throughly close with this notion when I was but a private member of a Church 1. That which is the primum subjectum is the proprium subjectum none doubt of this Proprium subjectum est quod cum suo accidente reciprocatur Animal est proprium subjectum sensus homo risus hence we say omnis homo est risibilis omne risibile est homo this is Axioma 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but every Axiome that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth include in it the rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where the predicate is true de omni subjecto omni loco omni tempore this is true of animal sensus So it must be true of the power of the keyes and the Fraternity Omni tempore but if we finde the power of the keyes exercised before there was a Fraternity then there was some other subject before the Fraternity When Paul came to Corinth he preached Authoritativè Ergo there was the power of the keyes in some subject but the Fratemity was Non-ens at this time how then could they be the subject Those who are the effect of the power of the keyes are not the first subject that is clear But the Fraternity is the effect it was so in all the Churches which the Apostles gathered and is indeed to this day This was one Argument troubled me So that which is primum is immediatum subjectum but how can this be since Mediantibus Apostolis and so now Mediantibus Ministris the Fraternity is made The elector is before the elected its true of Christ who elected the Apostles and gave to them the keyes from whom by a continued succession of Ministers still the Fratemity was made but had not the power of the keyes had some effect there had not been a Fraternity to choose an Officer though they are now in time before him whom they now elect yet they were not before him or them quâ fratres who by the power of the keyes in the ministry made them capable to choose an Officer therefore the power of the keyes was in some subject before them Besides election is no part of the power of the keyes Doma log p. 461. Keckes syst log l. 2. c. 20. therefore to argue the people elect ergo they are the first subject c. is fallacia non causae procansâ causae nomen hic usurpat ur pro quo vis argumento taking that to be a part of the power which is not 2 If so that which is primum est absolutum subjectum cui accidens absolutè sint ulla limitatione partis inharet sic animal est absolutum subjectum sensus adeoque visus auditus ideoque tantum animal dicitur rectê videre audire oculus non videt propriè quia non est Animal quando ergo oculus dicitur videre id non subjectivè intelligendum est sed instrumentaliter quod animal videat per oculum To apply this to our case the power of the keyes is in the whole body so the power of preaching c. there is the power subjectivè propriè so that if we aske who preached to day we must answer properly and subjectively the people preached but instrumentally only the Pastor preached so for the administration of the Sacraments this is very harsh hence againe because animal videt if a man dye or beast the eye which was the instrument of seeing excepting it may be the dissipation of the animal spirits else as an Organ it remains intire in the coates humors and optick nerves but yet it sees not So it seemes a Minister in case his body the people should dye he being but the instrument of their preaching he can preach no more this is strange how doe they preach out of their own bodies ordinatily If the men dye and only women and children be left the officer hath lost his preaching and cannot preach to them authoritatively because the Fraternity in whom the power was subjectivè is dead 3 I have observed that seven have been esteemed enough to make a Church suppose now one of these should offend another of the seven he must deale with him if he will not heare he must take two more here are four of the seven if he will not hear them tell the Church that is the three left the rest are parties Some to prove that Mat. 16. To thee I give the Keyes must be meant the Fraternity say that To Thee here is the same with Mat. 18. But this is somewhat doubted for that in Mat. 18. may well bee meant of a particular Church The visible Church is here meant saith Mr. Hoober Sur. p. 278. but in this place the Church must bee meant of the Catholike visible Church for it must be such a Church as must not faile But particular Churches may this or that particular Church I meane 2 But suppose i the so yet why must that Mat. 18. be meant only of the Fraternity Tell the Church i. e. the Fraternity if hee will not heare the Church i. e. the Fraternity where are the Officers are they no body one in New England would needs know of me why they should tell the Ministers of it when as it is Tell the Church not the Ministers this indeed would confirme it and here we should have brave order Mr. Vind. vin p. 6. Cawdry upon that Text seemes to have a good Argument since that the Kingdome of Heaven is there meant the Church the keyes are given to Peter as distinguished from the Church It is not a reasonable construction saith he of the Text to say I give to thee the keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven that is of the Church and to mean I give to the Church the keyes of the Church whence he concludes they were given to Peter and so to the Officers for the Church as the keyes are given to the Steward for the family This Argument is worth the Answering Object The strongest Objection to mee is this the first subject takes up the whole adjunct for there is a reciprocation therefore the Presbytery cannot be the first subject for the keyes are not reciprocated with them instance is given in Election Admission of Members Discipline which cannot be performed without the Fraternity Answ If reciprocation be so required c. then this will as well deny the people to bee first

Vindication Mr. Edwards also only he should not have jumbled all Independents together as if they did favour such vile Opinions he should have spared some now if we have such Nurseries among our Churches we shall finde it a difficult worke to keep our Churches cleare some of these cursed seeds will be blowne into the Gardens 4 They cause Church-Members to walke irregularly if any doe not walke as they should or have drunke in any poyson if now the Brethren first and then the Officers come to deale with them they care for no body If they be of any number to make a Society that they can meet together then they will rend away and so meet together but if not so many if but one yet they know where there is a Society of Separatists who wil take them in and hence what care they for all Officers and Churches But have you experience of this you will say Yes that I have I could instance quickly in more then one Church Hence I have heard Congregationall Ministers say it was but a vaine thing to goe about to gather a Church in a Town where the Separation was or if it were neere neither have they gathered any 5 They doe labour to draw away the hearts of our Members from us it hath been the language of some to my people You must not beleeve the Black-coats Another time preaching about familie duties as it lay in my Catechise in order one of them would needs know of one of my people what I had to doe to preach such things I must teach Christ so none shall finde any setling who attend upon Ministers but blessed be God there be many who can tell them its false and I pray God keep me from their setling 6 They have spoyled many hopefull young Plants persons newly awakened who have given some hopes they have come in and like the spirits at London stolne them away this blessed Burroughs complained of whose Ministry in the beginning of these troubles worked excellently and hoped for a fine crop but this Generation got away those young ones Cap. 5. v. 7. p. 431. as they saw them moved and leavened them with their errours thus this man lost many of his hopefull Plants yea I finde something in his Exposition upon Hosea where though he doth not expresse his owne particular trouble concerning this for what I mention was his speech to some friends I could set it downe larger then I have done yet there is the thing I know no such dreadfull argument of Gods displeasure against this Nation these are weighty words yea he repeates it over againe at the end of the same Paragraph as this that as soone as young ones begin to know Jesus Christ there are presently corrupt errours infused into them under the notion of honouring Christ and free grace c. For my owne selfe I am but weake and God hath not honoured me in that kind so as others of his Servants yet I have known where I have been bestowing paines and have had some hopes within a fortnight that an apparent change hath beene discerned Some of this generation have come to draw them away into their Societies telling them they shall never bee settled if they attend upon Ministers If these things be seriously considered you may easily judge how comfortably our worke will goe on while these are tolerated amongst us this is poore comfort for Ministers to goe about Church-worke when as if their members will prove wanton if their officers come to deale with them and send for them they shall scorne to come at them and send them base letters abusing their officers I could set downe in the margent where such things have been acted but I forbeare this is nothing so long as the Separatists the enemies of the Ministry are tolerated for they can resort to them yea if all the members of Congregationall Churches as well as of Presbyterian Churches will separate from their Officers and goe into their private houses they may if they will if they doe but meet together and exercise their gifts it is sufficient So that though Christ hath appointed the standing ordinance of the Ministry and left the example how these shall bee orderly called yet here is the foundation laid to destroy that Ordinance and bring in nothing but confusion Christ was faithfull in his house as a Sonne and ordered all things in that house he hath used his Ministers hitherto to bring home those that he hath elected and purchased he will have his house upon the Mountaines but now we are come to this point not to care whether we have Ordinances or no officers or no what comfort then can we have in going about this work of reforming our Churches But further if it be well observed these people are no such friends to the State though they are looked upon as the onely friends the State hath it will appeare if we consider them in a morall or politicall respect First for the morall respect the strength of a Christian state lies in having Christ on their side and I am sure the strength of our State lyes there now is that a way to keepe Christ on our side to tolerate those who seeke to undermine that whereby he is knowne in the world take away Ordinances and the Ministers who are appointed by him to dispense these Ordinances where shall we know Christ but these labour to doe this Can it be for their safety to tolerate such that hinder his visible Kingdome from being set up at least with poore comfort what is the reason that all this while there is no Discipline set up why are we in such a shattered broken condition no man hath any minde to stirre our obstructions are not from the Drunkards Whoremongers prophane swearers c. chiefly these carry so much conviction in their owne consciences that they dare not much appeare but these Schismes and Errors tolerated have been our obstructions If it shal please the State but to put forth some power to heal these not that I would have all errors knockt down with club-law and but stand to the Ministry I hope we shall see the Churches of England in another posture and things so carried that no man who walks by a pure conscience shall be justly offended for as for the Classicall and Congregationall Ministers they are come so near that I beleeve there will be no difference between them Those who hinder Christs Kingdome cannot be true friends to a Christian civill State If any shall object the State hath prospered since these Schismes and Errors have had their liberty therefore God doth witnesse for them I should say there is little Divinity in this kind of arguing viz. to argue from Providence to the maintaining of things crosse to the word of God besides here is fallacia non causae pro causâ For next to Gods own free soveraign pleasure which was the main cause the instrumental cause of the prospering

liberty yet he so ordereth their liberty that our Ministers would be glad if they had their Churches governed as is the Church whereof himselfe together with Mr. Na. Rogers are officers these are Congregationall men De schismate I will not rehearse what I finde in Camero because he wrote before these times and will be reckoned for a Presbyterian foure grounds he gives for separation none of which I am sure our Separatists can alleadge 1. Grievous and intolerable persecution 2. When the Church is Heretical 3. When Idolatry is set up 4. When the Church is the seat of Antichrist I shall conclude with a speech of his Vt nihil aequè arguit ingenium spiritus Christi ac studium conservandae societatis unionis in quo charitas elucet sic etiam nullum est evidentius argumentum pravitatis ingenii humani unde inter carnis opera contentienes nominantur quàm tumultuandi rixandi studium Object But you have spoken against godly men all this while Ans Not against their godlinesse one word their schisme errors only I have opposed But I know not what new Divinity we have got up in these dayes that if they be godly men that drinke in errours or practise inordinately Oh take heed how you speake they are godly men there may be an unwise speaking when men shall onely fling out against persons but confute nothing but certainly godly men deserve reproofe as well as others I hope the being of a godly man doth not make that to be no sinne in him which is sinne in another but here is the subtilty of Satan and it was all the game he had to play in those times I must now saith he get into an Angel of light and I must worke among these godly professors This w●● Satans plot in Cyprians time as he mentions in his booke De unitä Eccles yet when he saw his heathenish worship would not prosper but was cast down then hee plagued the Church with heresie and schisme if I can get some of those away I shall get other hollow ones to cleave to them and make a party If I now make not a division among them but that they joyne all with one shoulder to set up Christs Kingdome and thrust down mine it will go hard with my kingdome now therefore finde fault with the Ordination of Ministers it was Popish so separate from them plead conscience that is a tender peece strive for exact purity though it be beyond the rule as to visible Church-fellowship and thus he hath found out his wayes to damp all the worke of Reformation I shall say no more but this though some of these Separatists are godly men yet if godly men stand thus as now we do I beleeve God will not spare us though we be godly men but he will ere long bring such plagues upon the professing party in England as shall make their hearts ake For my part I look on England thus there have been choice servants of God in England who laboured under the Hierarchicall oppression many strong cryes have they made for the removall of that burden and that they might enjoy him in his owne Ordinances without the mixtures of mens inventions God hath given us in the answer of those prayers as to the removing of what offended and now saith God looke you to it yee Professors I give the power which never your Fathers saw into the hands of the Puritanicall * The old scoffe party let me now see how you will improve it for the advancement of my Church and glory but verily if we improve it no better then now we do we must look that God will not intrust us with this power long he doth not use to stay long before he visits his Churches but quickly deprive us of this liberty and Lord if thou doest thou shalt be just Having done with the Separatists I shall now take a short view of the agreements and differences that are with and between the Classical and Congregational Divines and then shall make bold to present an humble request to the Congregational Divines 1. Do the Classical-brethren stand for all the Ordinances of Christ as Praying Preaching Sacraments Discipline c so doe the Congregational-brethren 2. Do the Classical-brethren stand for Christs officers Pastors sach ers Ruling-elders Deacons allowing such and onely such o doe the Congregational-brethren They agree in worship and in officers 3. Do the Classical-brethren hold to the old doctrines of Faith Repentanee holding up the preaching of the Law in its method to prepare before faith to guide after faith so do the Congregational-brethren such as we looke upon as sound and esteem worth the regarding 4. Do the Classical-brethren hold the government of the Church to be Presbyterial so do the Congregational-men such as are the most acute Besides what Mr. Norton none of the lowest ranke hath asserted in his book which I quoted before I have heard him say That if the Congregational-government did make the government of the Church democratical he would give up the cause For my part I am but among the weakest of Gods Ministers but yet I thinke it were no hard matter to prove the government of the Church to be Aristocratical I enter not now into the debating of the question but this hath much stucke with me First there is government in the Church I meane an externall politie besides an internall government of the Spirit what ever our phantastical Spiritualists have dreamed of the Scripture is too plain against these Secondly then there are governours and governed this must needs be yeelded else government cannot be for governours there are none that are sound in their wits can deny if they owne the Scriptures Thirdly the affaires then of the Church must be so carried that these Relates may be kept distinct for that government which destroys these by making the Correlate i. the body governed to be governour and so there are none governed cannot possibly be a government standing so much with the light of nature There is no government if all rule Obj. But how can the government of the Church be Aristocraticall when as you carry things by the suffrage of the people Answ I should desire also to propound these questions First would you not if now Churches were constituting give the people this liberty that if any could bring in good testimony against a man who was to bee received into the Church that they should do it and if the thing be proved will not you refuse to admit such a one Secondly if it now come to casting out of a member will not you give liberty to any of the brethren who shall first asking you leave to speak in a sober grave way propound some question to the clearing of the case in hand before the people joyn with you in cutting off a member I say would not you give this liberty Thirdly will you excommunicate renitente ecclesiâ

any power invested with Authority but if they injoyne a thing to bee done and it be refused that Authority will reach further Authoritas cogit as is the kind of the Authority Civill or Ecclesiasticall Blessed Burroughs in answering to that which some would have Iren. p. 44. scil that a Synod may formally excommunicate because by excommunication they i.e. Hereticall Churches are put out of the Kingdome of Christ into the Kingdome of Satan and this will terrifie saith consider whether this be not done before and that with an authority of Christ by those former six things mentioned in the page before for Hereticall Congregations or persons are judged and declared in a solemn Ordinance by the Officers of Christ gathered together in his name to be such as have no right to any Church Ordinance to have no Communion with any of the Churches of Christ now if this judgement be right are not such persons or Congregations put out of the Kingdome of Christ and put under the power of Satan consequently Certainly this cannot be a ground of such difference shall Non and Ex make such a stir when Non is as bad as Ex I should judge my self I am sure to be in as bad a case by the one as the other though for my part this notion of Catholike-visible-Church hath made me ready to yeeld to Synods juridicall power I could I say yeeld it and yet not differ from these reverend Divines if they follow home their non-communion close Now if you say what doth this helpe against Hereticall Congregations though you have proceeded to Non-communion they regard it not but still go on in their Heresies and leaven others to that they wil say what do they care for your excommunication if all the Hereticks in England were excommunicated they would not care but go on still Indeed our New England Divines will teach us a way how to helpe it viz. if a Synod hath declared against an Hereticall Congregation being pertinacious and so hath proceeded to non-communion they will call in the Civil power to help and so they have a way to help by their non-communion and this must be the help of them though they be excommunicated This Mr. Norton intimates Resp ad Apol. 148 Keyes 50 Iren. c. 4. Mr. Marshal relates that Zuinglius in a publick dispute did so stop the mouthes of the Anabaptist that they appearing to the Magistrates unreasonably obstinate were banish d the City Defen ag Tomb. 58. Ecclesiae appellant Magistratum in causis Ecclesiae non ad doctrinam declarandam vel disciplinam exequendam sed ad doctrinam a Cencilio declaratam vel disciplinam ab ecclesiâ applicatam sanctione Civili confirmandam The dury which Mr. Cotton sheweth to lye upon the Civill Magistrate inferres as much As also Mr. Burroughs And thus it was in New England when the Synod at which the Civill Power was present as to hear so to keep civill order had consuted and condemned the Errors and Heresies and so was broke up then a Generall Court was called which soon suppressed those Heresies and brought the Churches to peace again If the Civill power would do as much here we should soon see our Churches in better order What Civill Magistrates have done in this ease before I need not mention books are full It s true the Churches were when there was no Civill Power to defend them but oppose them but we can finde how many Heresies and Schismes they were then troubled with shall the Church be in no better case under a Christian Civill Power Nursing-Fathers then at that time 6 Doe the Classicall godly men looke upon their Congregations having visible Saints among them to be true visible Churches so doe the Congregationall men judge them also I gave instance before 7 Would then the Classical brethren have their members being such as have right to the Ordinance to partake with Congregational Churches in the Lords Supper to shew their communion certainly so they ought but why Congegationall men doe refuse godly men members of Classicall Churches not admitting them to the Lords Supper when they have desired it is very strange to me I wish our reverend Brethren would give us solid grounds for this practice for it gives offence and that justly a Preface to survey ch dis Mr. Hooker and b Iren. p. 266. Mr. Burroughs have both said they should be admitted Shal a Church be acknowledged to be a true Church where Doctrine and Worship is pure also this person a member of it a visible Saint it may be a real Saint and shall he be denyed communion 8 For Classes Pref. surv ch dis the Congregationall men say Consociation of Churches is not onely lawfull but in some cases necessary So Mr. Hooker Mr. Cotton speakes fully to this Keyes p. 54 55. weighty matters such as Election and ordination of Elders excommunication of an Elder or any person of publike note the translation of an Elder from one Church to another it is an holy Ordinance to proceed with common consultation and consent I suppose thus much might have beene obtained of the Classical-brethren that though in cases of weight as excommunication they would not have such an Ordinance carried on by one Minister but have the thing seriously examined first and debated in a Classis yet when the thing had beene concluded upon they would leave the execution of the sentence to the officer or officers of the Church where the case lyeth If so much might be obtained I should be very farre from opposing a Classis I would not willingly live without one I know of no other material point of difference as for the first subject of the power of the Keyes that is but a notion though its true much practise depends upon it yet I finde not that our Divines here would have the fraternity to be the first subject by their owning of Mr. Cotton his booke of the Keyes for Mr. Cotton makes a Church organized to bee the first subject and not the Fraternity as is apparent in divers places of that booke The summe is I wonder at our differnces well might that worthy Divine say in his letter to me from New England It s the wonderment of this side of the world that you that are godly and may agree yet will not surely the cause lyeth more in the Will then any thing else Give me leave therefore I pray to make my humble request to our Reverend Divines the Congregational-men that they would please to close in with the Classical brethren and not suffer these groundlesse differences to trouble the Churches any longer If you aske Why doe you make your request to us are we the cause why they are not bealed I cannot thinke the cause lyes onely in the Ministers nay I have heard long since there had been an agreement among the Ministers had not some others that live by divisions broken it but whether all Ministers are of the