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innocent_a godly_a person_n in_o that_o church_n renounce_v and_o protest_v against_o must_v they_o be_v renounce_v communion_n with_o what_o will_v you_o do_v in_o the_o case_n where_o some_o in_o a_o church_n may_v be_v free_a from_o the_o error_n and_o evil_n which_o the_o great_a number_n be_v guilty_a of_o which_o you_o account_v the_o church_n must_v they_o be_v debar_v of_o all_o christian_a communion_n with_o the_o church_n offend_v and_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n protest_v to_o you_o speak_v nothing_o here_o in_o this_o case_n nor_o take_v no_o care_n for_o they_o but_o wrap_v up_o all_o alike_o in_o your_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n must_v the_o innocent_a party_n now_o in_o this_o church_n offend_v separate_a and_o withdraw_v from_o their_o own_o church_n and_o renounce_v communion_n too_o as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n offend_v what_o if_o all_o their_o maintenance_n and_o livelihood_n depend_v in_o live_v in_o that_o place_n so_o that_o if_o they_o withdraw_v from_o they_o they_o must_v either_o live_v without_o public_a ordinance_n and_o communion_n or_o else_o if_o they_o come_v away_o ruin_n themselves_o and_o family_n what_o also_o if_o in_o this_o church_n offend_v the_o wife_n be_v one_o of_o the_o innocent_a person_n in_o that_o church_n but_o the_o husband_n of_o the_o number_n of_o they_o that_o persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n the_o son_n and_o daughter_n among_o the_o innocent_a the_o father_n and_o mother_n among_o the_o offender_n what_o must_v the_o wife_n and_o child_n renounce_v communion_n with_o their_o husband_n and_o parent_n and_o now_o either_o live_v without_o the_o ordinance_n there_o or_o else_o go_v away_o from_o their_o husband_n and_o pareâ—…ts_n to_o some_o other_o church_n 〈◊〉_d and_o in_o your_o draw_v up_o your_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n against_o those_o church_n persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n will_v you_o in_o the_o gross_a do_v it_o or_o will_v you_o signify_v and_o declare_v all_o the_o name_n of_o those_o who_o remain_v obstinate_a and_o impenitent_a in_o such_o church_n with_o the_o name_n of_o those_o who_o be_v free_a from_o those_o error_n and_o offence_n lest_o you_o shall_v bring_v all_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n protest_v unto_o into_o sin_n and_o a_o snare_n pray_v resolve_v these_o case_n with_o many_o such_o which_o by_o these_o now_o hint_v you_o may_v foresee_v will_v fall_v out_o in_o your_o principle_n of_o non-communion_n of_o church_n and_o protestation_n three_o for_o the_o success_n and_o effectualnes_n of_o your_o practice_n i_o answer_v 1._o suppose_v the_o particular_a instance_n of_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v to_o have_v have_v a_o good_a effect_n as_o you_o relate_v in_o your_o two_o church_n of_o arnheim_n and_o rottendam_fw-la yet_o it_o follow_v not_o it_o be_v a_o powerful_a and_o effectual_a mean_n to_o reduce_v church_n for_o a_o course_n may_v prevail_v in_o one_o and_o take_v with_o one_o and_o yet_o have_v no_o rationality_n to_o carry_v it_o in_o other_o for_o though_o this_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n do_v submit_v to_o they_o of_o arnheim_n who_o be_v of_o note_n for_o part_n quality_n etc._n etc._n yet_o it_o be_v a_o question_n whether_o these_o will_v to_o some_o other_o particular_a church_n who_o have_v challenge_v they_o and_o whether_o these_o man_n will_v also_o at_o all_o time_n have_v there_o not_o be_v something_o cast_v in_o the_o balance_n before_o hint_v 2._o take_v the_o best_a that_o come_v of_o the_o issue_n and_o success_n of_o this_o agitation_n between_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n and_o that_o of_o rotterdam_n namely_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v acknowledge_v their_o offence_n in_o depose_v mr_n ward_n and_o restore_v he_o to_o his_o place_n again_o it_o be_v but_o a_o slender_a satisfaction_n for_o the_o loss_n of_o his_o ministry_n and_o maintenance_n for_o so_o long_a a_o time_n and_o for_o all_o the_o suffering_n of_o he_o and_o his_o family_n if_o the_o church_n offend_v have_v be_v enjoin_v or_o have_v order_v themselves_o to_o have_v pay_v he_o the_o profit_n of_o his_o place_n or_o to_o have_v give_v he_o a_o good_a sum_n of_o money_n on_o their_o fast_a day_n this_o have_v be_v some_o relief_n for_o a_o wrongful_a sentence_n and_o a_o person_n injure_v thereby_o and_o may_v have_v be_v a_o mean_n to_o have_v preserve_v they_o from_o do_v the_o like_a for_o time_n to_o come_v but_o for_o a_o minister_n and_o his_o family_n to_o be_v so_o long_o in_o a_o sad_a condition_n without_o all_o maintenance_n in_o a_o strange_a land_n and_o in_o the_o issue_n for_o they_o who_o do_v this_o to_o acknowledge_v only_o their_o sinful_a aberration_n and_o the_o minister_n thus_o suffer_v to_o acknowledge_v his_o sin_n too_o and_o both_o of_o they_o to_o be_v humble_v for_o it_o alike_o here_o be_v a_o poor_a remedy_n â—…ay_o 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pretend_v to_o be_v shall_v not_o see_v into_o the_o weakness_n and_o folly_n of_o your_o own_o practice_n in_o this_o case_n but_o tell_v such_o a_o story_n so_o to_o shame_v yourselves_o you_o shall_v never_o have_v trouble_v yourselves_o to_o have_v come_v so_o many_o dutch_a mile_n not_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n nor_o make_v so_o great_a ado_n for_o many_o day_n of_o depose_v witness_n etc._n etc._n as_o yourselves_o relate_v in_o page_n 20_o 21._o to_o have_v put_v together_o the_o innocent_a and_o delinquent_n and_o let_v i_o here_o put_v you_o this_o dilemma_n either_o mr_n ward_n be_v unjust_o depose_v from_o his_o ministry_n both_o material_o and_o formal_o upon_o unsufficient_a cause_n as_o the_o matter_n for_o such_o a_o censure_n and_o for_o the_o way_n and_o manner_n of_o it_o as_o be_v too_o sudden_a before_o admonition_n and_o before_o fast_v and_o prayer_n precede_v etc._n etc._n 〈◊〉_d be_v just_o depose_v by_o the_o church_n if_o unjust_o in_o both_o these_o respect_n as_o your_o narration_n imply_v page_n 16._o why_o be_v mr._n ward_n put_v upon_o acknowledge_v his_o sin_n to_o the_o church_n and_o put_v in_o the_o same_o condition_n with_o they_o who_o have_v deal_v so_o unjust_o both_o material_o and_o formal_o and_o whether_o this_o be_v not_o a_o mean_n to_o hinder_v the_o church_n repentance_n and_o humiliation_n for_o their_o sin_n when_o they_o shall_v be_v put_v but_o to_o do_v as_o mr_n ward_n but_o if_o mr_n ward_n be_v just_o dopose_v why_o be_v the_o church_n then_o put_v upon_o public_a acknowledgement_n and_o order_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o before_o god_n and_o man_n and_o whether_o be_v mr_n bridge_n as_o well_o as_o the_o church_n enjoin_v to_o confess_v his_o sinful_a aberration_n in_o it_o in_o that_o he_o do_v not_o interpose_v his_o authority_n and_o interest_n in_o the_o church_n nor_o speak_v a_o
so_o there_o be_v need_n of_o synod_n for_o the_o govern_n of_o the_o church_n and_o for_o the_o prevent_n of_o herâ—…fies_v in_o a_o word_n all_o thing_n be_v loose_a in_o independent_a government_n every_o one_o be_v leave_v and_o may_v take_v liberty_n without_o control_n to_o do_v what_o be_v good_a in_o their_o own_o eye_n if_o they_o like_v not_o any_o church_n whereof_o they_o be_v member_n they_o may_v go_v to_o another_o nay_o a_o few_o in_o a_o church_n dislike_a that_o church_n may_v go_v make_v a_o church_n themselves_o and_o make_v minister_n and_o hold_v what_o they_o will_v as_o mr_n sympson_n do_v with_o some_o few_o more_o and_o since_o some_o have_v rend_v from_o mr_n sympson_n church_n as_o he_o from_o mr_n bridge_n the_o rule_v they_o go_v by_o be_v loose_a nothing_o be_v fix_v nor_o certain_a among_o they_o and_o there_o can_v be_v no_o settledness_n of_o mind_n nor_o consistence_n of_o principle_n in_o that_o way_n simple_a and_o well_o mean_v people_n according_a to_o their_o principle_n must_v be_v draw_v till_o they_o come_v to_o that_o to_o hold_v that_o there_o be_v no_o true_a church_n nor_o minister_n at_o all_o yet_o upon_o the_o earth_n which_o principle_n begin_v to_o take_v and_o spread_v already_o among_o many_o independent_o in_o a_o word_n that_o liberty_n and_o looseness_n which_o be_v from_o first_o to_o last_o in_o independent_a government_n hold_v no_o authoritative_a ecclesiastical_a power_n out_o of_o the_o particular_a congregation_n to_o remedy_n or_o prevent_v any_o matter_n and_o that_o which_o be_v in_o the_o particular_a congregation_n be_v on_o many_o ground_n and_o principle_n of_o they_o so_o slight_a and_o weak_a as_o the_o only_a subject_n of_o excommunication_n be_v no_o other_o kind_n of_o sin_n than_o may_v evident_o be_v presume_v to_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n etc._n etc._n as_o that_o two_o or_o three_o saint_n or_o now_o of_o late_a six_o or_o seven_o may_v withdraw_v from_o church_n defective_a and_o impure_a and_o make_v church_n and_o choose_v all_o officer_n etc._n etc._n with_o other_o like_a so_o that_o what_o need_v they_o care_v then_o for_o that_o church_n of_o which_o they_o be_v member_n though_o cast_v out_o see_v they_o can_v make_v new_a and_o have_v all_o to_o their_o own_o mind_n be_v chief_a there_o be_v a_o dangerous_a temptation_n even_o to_o sober_a man_n to_o make_v they_o presume_v to_o broach_v that_o practise_v that_o which_o else_o they_o will_v never_o have_v do_v but_o in_o the_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o be_v consistence_n unity_n and_o strength_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o a_o hundred_o year_n visible_a experience_n of_o god_n blessing_n from_o heaven_n upon_o they_o there_o be_v also_o a_o certainty_n and_o fixedness_n of_o rule_n agree_v on_o both_o for_o particular_a congregation_n for_o class_n and_o synod_n there_o be_v a_o aw_v and_o preserve_v of_o officer_n and_o people_n in_o their_o bound_n and_o keep_v they_o from_o run_v out_o to_o error_n etc._n etc._n there_o be_v no_o man_n be_v he_o never_o so_o able_a or_o subtle_a that_o can_v escape_v call_v to_o account_n and_o censure_n magistrate_n and_o minister_n have_v their_o power_n in_o the_o church_n without_o usurpation_n and_o confusion_n and_o to_o conclude_v in_o the_o word_n of_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n be_v magistrate_n and_o civil_a power_n acquaint_v with_o this_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n they_o will_v find_v their_o authority_n increase_v their_o work_n more_o easy_a and_o their_o place_n more_o comfortable_a thereby_o and_o now_o have_v give_v a_o answer_n to_o that_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n under_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n by_o speak_v full_o of_o those_o five_o head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o your_o discourse_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n begin_v in_o pag._n 12._o and_o end_v in_o the_o 21._o i_o will_v for_o a_o close_o speak_v something_o to_o some_o of_o your_o passage_n contain_v in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o narration_n which_o can_v not_o so_o well_o be_v take_v in_o nor_o so_o proper_o animadvert_v upon_o under_o those_o five_o head_n without_o the_o reader_n be_v much_o confound_v and_o entangle_v 1._o to_o that_o passage_n p._n 14._o we_o have_v for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o the_o time_n we_o be_v abroad_o three_o elder_n at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o we_o be_v subject_a to_o i_o ask_v if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n you_o many_o time_n have_v but_o three_o and_o sometime_o but_o two_o nay_o one_o elder_a the_o government_n of_o your_o church_n then_o be_v either_o monarchical_a government_n or_o oligarchicall_a at_o best_a and_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n who_o be_v the_o elder_n subject_n to_o the_o elder_n than_o be_v under_o no_o subjection_n but_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n and_o not_o the_o elder_n to_o the_o church_n riddle_n i_o what_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o all_o those_o phrase_n the_o church_n still_o do_v so_o and_o so_o not_o the_o elder_n the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n depose_v m._n ward_n and_o not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o elder_a or_o two_o and_o so_o m._n nye_n and_o m._n goodwin_n the_o minister_n be_v send_v by_o the_o church_n and_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v confess_v their_o sin_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n to_o his_o place_n again_o which_o sure_o be_v not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o lay-elder_n or_o two_o 2._o to_o those_o passage_n of_o church_n offend_v call_v to_o a_o account_n church_n offend_v proceed_v to_o full_a and_o open_a trial_n and_o examination_n to_o judiciarie_n charge_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n open_o before_o all_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n as_o can_v be_v expect_v in_o any_o court_n where_o authority_n about_o 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of_o the_o piety_n wisdom_n and_o learning_n of_o two_o kingdom_n be_v meet_v in_o one_o etc._n etc._n which_o testimony_n give_v by_o you_o to_o this_o assembly_n and_o that_o character_n give_v by_o you_o of_o the_o people_n and_o the_o professor_n of_o this_o kingdom_n in_o page_n 24._o and_o 28._o be_v worthy_a to_o be_v observe_v and_o be_v of_o great_a use_n in_o these_o time_n when_o the_o assembly_n and_o their_o proceed_n be_v so_o much_o traduce_v and_o speak_v against_o by_o your_o follower_n and_o church_n and_o let_v i_o make_v this_o use_n of_o it_o to_o the_o people_n and_o sad_o put_v this_o question_n to_o their_o conscience_n whether_o be_v more_o probable_a that_o a_o assembly_n so_o judicious_a of_o so_o many_o able_a learned_a and_o grave_a divine_n where_o much_o of_o the_o piety_n wisdom_n and_o learning_n of_o two_o kingdom_n be_v meet_v in_o one_o go_v in_o god_n way_n as_o you_o say_v page_z 28._o make_v it_o their_o work_n and_o business_n to_o find_v out_o 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there_o and_o for_o authority_n with_o the_o people_n to_o lead_v they_o whether_o you_o or_o most_o of_o the_o minister_n in_o the_o assembly_n have_v the_o great_a be_v no_o controversy_n witness_v the_o deep_a censure_n upon_o the_o assembly_n and_o the_o godly_a minister_n every_o where_o by_o multitude_n of_o the_o people_n but_o the_o great_a applause_n and_o cry_v up_o of_o you_o and_o other_o independent_o so_o that_o if_o authority_n with_o many_o well_o mean_v people_n be_v a_o advantge_n it_o be_v on_o your_o side_n and_o that_o have_v do_v you_o heretofore_o some_o service_n to_o make_v many_o man_n more_o rich_a of_o preach_v against_o your_o way_n because_o of_o your_o great_a authority_n with_o the_o people_n that_o be_v ground_n enough_o to_o put_v many_o man_n out_o of_o the_o state_n of_o grace_n with_o some_o sort_n of_o people_n beside_o â—…f_a authority_n in_o the_o people_n heart_n can_v sway_v any_o thing_n with_o the_o assembly_n against_o the_o truth_n yea_o but_o to_o suspend_v their_o judgement_n about_o the_o truth_n as_o i_o be_o confident_a it_o do_v not_o than_o you_o will_v have_v the_o advantage_n of_o authority_n to_o sway_v the_o assembly_n rather_o to_o your_o side_n then_o against_o you_o 4._o for_o the_o four_o disadvantage_n the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n this_o be_v a_o dangerous_a insinuation_n against_o the_o assembly_n yea_o and_o the_o parliament_n too_o without_o who_o nothing_o the_o assemby_n do_v can_v be_v of_o any_o validity_n as_o if_o they_o will_v be_v carry_v with_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n rather_o than_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o will_v bend_v the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n now_o let_v i_o put_v you_o this_o dilemma_n either_o the_o public_a interest_n of_o this_o kingdom_n at_o this_o time_n will_v stand_v and_o agree_v with_o the_o word_n of_o god_n or_o it_o will_v not_o if_o it_o will_v stand_v than_o not_o only_o the_o assembly_n but_o you_o also_o shall_v be_v for_o that_o interest_n account_v the_o public_a interest_n so_o suit_v to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n a_o advantage_n but_o if_o it_o will_v not_o stand_v with_o the_o word_n but_o that_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n run_v one_o way_n and_o god_n word_n another_o way_n can_v you_o think_v the_o assembly_n will_v be_v carry_v with_o public_a interest_n and_o leave_v the_o stream_n of_o the_o word_n will_v not_o the_o assembly_n rather_o follow_v the_o word_n of_o god_n account_v late-walking_a according_a to_o that_o the_o great_a and_o most_o public_a interest_n have_v the_o parliament_n kingdom_n and_o minister_n do_v and_o suffer_v so_o much_o for_o a_o reformation_n according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o now_o after_o all_o this_o be_v there_o a_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n divide_v from_o the_o word_n to_o carry_v away_o the_o minister_n call_v together_o according_a to_o which_o a_o government_n must_v be_v frame_v and_o the_o church_n reform_v and_o this_o be_v the_o great_a disadvantage_n that_o some_o member_n of_o the_o assembly_n who_o will_v go_v according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n meet_v withal_o and_o must_v be_v put_v to_o swim_v against_o brother_n what_o will_v the_o prelate_n say_v of_o our_o reformation_n and_o church_n government_n when_o you_o speak_v thus_o have_v not_o you_o put_v a_o sword_n into_o their_o hand_n this_o day_n against_o we_o and_o shall_v we_o not_o hear_v of_o it_o but_o i_o wish_v brother_n whilst_o you_o thus_o asperse_v the_o assembly_n with_o the_o danger_n of_o be_v carry_v a_o way_n with_o the_o stream_n of_o public_a interest_n that_o the_o stream_n of_o your_o own_o particular_a private_a interest_n and_o credit_n among_o the_o people_n do_v not_o too_o much_o carry_v you_o away_o as_o many_o other_o way_n so_o in_o write_v