that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord and we judged that all those precepts obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure and all grant it meant of the Pastors and Teachers and other Elders that were set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the holy Ghost as in those like commands Wives obey your own husbands Servants your own Governours to be meant of their severall families respectively We could not therefore but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of our severall Congregations for matters of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their own Elders whereof we had for the most part of the time we were abroad three at least in each Congregation whom we were subject to yet not claiming to our selves an independent power in every Congregation to give account or be subject to none others but only a full and entire power compleate within our selves untill we should be challenged to erre grossely such as Corporations enjoy who have the power and priviledge to passe sentence for life and death within themselves and yet are accountable to the State they live in But that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seate of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authority over those Churches they feed and teach not ordinarily by vertue of those fore-mentioned Apostolicall precepts was to us a question and judged to be an additament unto the other which therefore rested on those that allowed us what we practised over and above to make evident and demonstrate and certainely of all other the challenge of all spirituall power from Christ had need have a cleare pattent to shew for it Yea we appeale further unto them that have read books whether untill those later writings of the two Reverend and Learned Divines of Scotland set forth after our returne nor much more then two yeares since and others of no elder date from Holland and one of our own Divines more lately Written with much learning and ingenuity there hath been much settly and directly or with strength insisted on to prove that government and although assert and inculcate it they doe as their opinions yet the full strength and streame of our non-conformists Writings and others are spent rather in arguments against and for the overthrowing the Episcopall government and the corruptions that cleave to our Worship and in maintaining those severall Officers in Churches Which Christ hath instituted in stead thereof in which we fully agree with them then in the proofe of a combined classicall Presbyteriall government as it is authoritatively practised in the most reformed Churches Before I give a full answer to your third and last instance of the government and discipline in the Churches I premise this that in all the differences between you and us in the principles and practises of the visible Church and government of it you give but three instances only wherein you practise more safely then the reformed Churches although you make such a great principle and matter of it in the eleventh page yet there are many things besides these three wherein you practise differently from all reformed Churches as in the way of gathering and constituting Churches in the way of making Ministers in the power you give the people in Church government cum multis alijs why did you in this Narration passe by these Is it not either because you were not willing to tell all you hold and practise the time being not yet come to open all your way and principles which is one of the things I blame you for your reservednesse in keeping back so great a part shewing us only the fairest side of that wherein you differ or else if you had thought fit to have related them you in your own wisedomes questioned whether those other particulars wherein you differ would bare so faire a glosse as of practising most safely and of fastning the odium of additaments so well upon the reformed Churches as these three instances you give And I might here take an occasion to shew further how the reformed Churches practised more safely on both hands then you neither adding not taking away and so I might strongly retort this whole third principle of yours back upon you but that may suffice I have already hinted of it Now for this third and last instance of your walking safely but fastning additaments in government and discipline on the reformed Churches this being laid downe so largely as that it is a third part of your book within a very little beginning in the twelfth page and continuing to the end of the one and twentieth page containing in it many various things I must therefore because of the intermixture of persons and things in this part of your Narration more then in any other going forward and backward up and downe that I may let nothing escape of moment I shall endeavour to draw out the severall ends of these twined threds and entangled discourse and to wind them up upon their severall bottomes by reducing this part of your Narrative to these following heads whereon I may more distinctly fasten my answers both for yours and the Readers better satisfaction 1. You relate what the reformed Churches doe practise and allow as also what our old non-conformists granted and what your selves allow and grant about a Church and the government of it 2. You relate what you disallow and are not satisfied in 3. You couch some arguments and reasons for your own way and practise and against the practise of the reformed Churches 4. You answer a common objection brought against your way by laying down the principles that you hold in such a case as also by relating your practise occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches 5. Upon this answer you make a comparison between the effectualnesse of your way in what you hold and practise and what the Presbyterians hold to reduce Churches and to compose differences in which comparison you make the scales to fall on your side rather Now the Reader must expect here as in other passages of this Narration generall doubtfull darke partiall and reserved relations with mistating the questions which in my answers I shall observe and point at all along To the first of these five heads wherein also are three particulars To the first of these concerning the reformed Churches namely what they practise and allow I answer you should have done well to have instanced their practises what were the greater matters governed in common by the Presbyterie of severall Congregations and what were the lesser matters wherein each particular Congregation was governed by their particular Elders As also what were those cases wherein the reformed
a particular Church exceeding the number of them who may ordinarily meet together in one place for the worshipping of God and the sanctification of the Lords-day which if it can be proved overthrowes M. Robinsons M. Cottons definitions of Churcheâ—… and your principles who all keepe to this as to a foundation upon which is built many of your other practises For we know at first the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches were not more numerous then to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation neither could it be expected that all should come in at first and we know for many other Churches the Scriptures doe not so particularly relate the growth and accessions of them But if any one instance can be given it is not materiall whether first or last sooner or later whether in the beginning middle or end of the story for then your Positions and assertions of a particular visible Church are overthrowne for one affirmative overthrowes a universall negative And I aske of you whether you take ordinarily here as opposed to extraordinary or take ordinarily for commonly as opposed to rarely and seldome now if you meane it in the first sence that the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches that may be instanced in their case was extraordinary and though the Apostles suffered them to grow so ranke and numerous yet we may not doe so now I desire to know of you then what is become of your first generall rule the Primitive patternes of Churches erected by the Apostles and I desire to know what râ—…le you walke by and whether the first constituted Church of all were not likely to be the patterne for constituted Churches seeing Primum in unoquoque genere est regula mensura reliquorum But if you meane ordinarily in the second sence as that there is but one only instance the most if not all other Churches were otherwise that you see will not by what I have above written helpe you besides what ever you can probably alleadge that the Churches of these times should be conformed to such Churches which consisted of no greater number then to make one particular Congregation I will give more and better why the Churches of a Nation and kingdome should be conformed to that of Hierusalem As for those phrases of yours which you bring in by way of caution and clearing the way of your government within your selves that you claime not an Independent power to give no account or be subject to none others but onely a full and entire power compleate within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely Whilest in these first lines you denie Independent power in words yet in your latter words you grant it claiming a full and entire power compleate within your selves which is Independent power and is the full sence of that which hath been fasten'd on you by us and I will shew it more fully in the proper place when I come to the 23. page especially if you take upon you to enjoy it so long untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely I had thought it had been enough upon your being challenged to erre to have given an account but belike it must be erring grossely I suspect something lyes under this as under many other of your phrases whereby you evade and hide your selves stating points wrongfully Pray what doe you account erring grossely and whether doe you judge any thing erring grosly in your particular Churches but such kinds of sins in manners and such kind of opinions as are against the Churches knowne light and the common received practises and principles of Christianitie professed by the Churches themselves and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sinnes to be the ground of giving an account as they are not of Excommunication with you page 9. both being of equall latitude sins of particular persons to a Church and the sins of a particular Church to a Communitie of Churches and if that be your meaning you shall be Independent enough And then further I demand of you how you can use those phrases of not claiming a power to be subject to none others I confesse you may better use those words of giving account holding counselling and advising by sister-Churches but as for that phrase of subjecting to none others I understand it not what censure will your Churches subject unto from other Churches will they yeeld to the deposition of their Ministers Excommunication of their members c. or how can there be any subjection to other Churches in your principles the phrase being taken properly and usually when as all along you pleade against authoritative Presbyteriall power so oft exprest in page 15 16. and is the great point in controversie in this instance betwixt you and the Presbyterians How oft doe you denie the subjection of a particular Church to all other Churches and are against all subjecting to censures yea to be subjected as to counsell and advices from the other Churches As to that phrase your owne Elders whereof you had three at least in each Congregation whom you were subject to in which you seeme to hold out the government and power of the Church to lie in the Elders and not in the body of the Congregation I desire you to satisfie me in this point whether all of you hold the power and authoritie to be in the Elders or in the Church and whether by goe tell the Church is meant tell the Elders or the bodie of the Congregation and whether according to the principles of the Church-way in M. Robinsons workes and the bookes of New-England and M. Bridges owne letter unlesse some of you have lately seene another light you might have truly written three Elders at least in every Congregation to whom the Congregations were subject or else three Elders who were subject to their owne Congregations and this shall suffice for answer to the first head of the five concerning the third Instance To the second head under this third instance what you are not satisfied in nor cannot allow 1. About particular visible Churches That you could not imagine in every City where the Apostles came the number of the converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations 2. About the government of it that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authoritie over those Churches they teach not c. In both these you deale fallaciously and relate the controversie to your advantage and our disadvantage For the first whereas had you dealt ingenuously your words should have been these for that in any Citie where the Apostles came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations you
differences what if the messengers of the Churches upon hearing and examining differ among themselves about the differences and offences in the Church â—…ending and about the sentences to be agreed upon to be commended to the offending parties yea and what if the Churches themselves upon returne made by the messengers how they find matters differ also one of the Churches offended being of one mind and the other Church offended of another mind what remedy is there now for miscarriages what reliefe for a person injured or what effectuall and powerfull meanes to reduce a Church or Churches 13. In your sentence of non-communion against Churches and in your Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ â—…hat they may doe the like what shall become of some innocent godly persons in that Church renounced and protested against must they be renounced communion with what will you doe in the case where some in a Church may be free from the errours and evils which the greater number are guilty of which you account the Church must they be debarred of all Christian communion with the Church offended and all other Churches of Christ protested to you speake nothing here in this case nor take no care for them but wrap up all alike in your sentence of non-communion must the innocent party now in this Church offending separate and withdraw from their own Church and renounce communion too as well as the Church offended what if all their maintenance and livelihood depends in living in that place so that if they withdraw from them they must either live without publike ordinances and communion or else if they come away ruine themselves and families what also if in this Church offending the wife be one of the innocent persons in that Church but the husband of the number of them that persist in their errour and miscarriage the sonne and daughter among the innocent the fathers and mothers among the offenders what must the wives and children renounce communion with their husbands and parents and now either live without the ordinances there or else goe away from their husbands and pareâ—…ts to some other Churches 〈◊〉 And in your drawing up your Declarations and Protestations against those Churches persisting in their errours and miscarriages will you in the grosse doe it or will you signifie and declare all the names of those who remaine obstinate and impenitent in such Churches with the names of those who are free from those errors and offences least you should bring all the Churches of Christ protested unto into sin and a snare pray resolve these cases with many such which by these now hinted you may fore-see will fall out in your principle of non-communion of Churches and Protestations Thirdly For the successe and effectualnes of your practise I answer 1. Supposing the particular instance of your practise according to the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry to have had a good effect as you relate in your two Churches of Arnheim and Rottendam yet it followes not it is a powerfull and effectuall meanes to reduce Churches for a course may prevaile in one and take with one and yet have no rationality to carry it in others for though this Church at Rotterdam did submit to them of Arnheim who were of note for parts quality c. yet it is a question whether these would to some other particular Churches who had challenged them and whether these men would also at all times had there not been something cast in the ballance before hinted 2. Take the best that came of the issue and successe of this agitation between the Church of Arnheim and that of Rotterdam namely that Church which had offended acknowledging their offence in deposing Mr Ward and restoring him to his place againe it was but a slender satisfaction for the losse of his Ministery and maintenance for so long a time and for all the suffering of him and his family If the Church offending had been enjoyned or had ordered themselves to have paid him the profits of his place or to have given him a good summe of money on their fast day this had been some reliefe for a wrongfull sentence and a person injured thereby and might have been a meanes to have preserved them from doing the like for time to come but for a Minister and his family to be so long in a sad condition without all maintenance in a strange Land and in the issue for them who did this to acknowledge only their sinfull aberration and the Minister thus suffering to acknowledge his sin too and both of them to be humbled for it alike here was a poore remedy â—…ay as you relate it your selves it is very unjust and injurious for in some passages of your Narration you acknowledge the fault on the Churches side as in page 16. and in page â—…0 and that Mr Ward was wronged and yet they were both equally ordered to a publike confession of sin and solemne fasting the Delinquent and the Innocent alike deale with is this the fruit of your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion is this the reall evidence and demonstration of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such a case and was this the issue of all that sending to and solemne assembly and the agitation of so many dayes publike hearing by deposition of witnesses so largely and formally related in page 20 21 I wonder wise men as you pretend to be should not see into the weaknesse and folly of your own practise in this case but tell such a story so to shame your selves you should never have troubled your selves to have come so many dutch miles not the Church at Rotterdam nor made so great adoe for many dayes of deposing witnesses c. as your selves relate in page 20 21. to have put together the Innocent and Delinquents And let me here put you this dilemma either Mr Ward was unjustly deposed from his Ministery both materially and formally upon unsufficient causes as the matter for such a censure and for the way and manner of it as being too suddaine before admonition and before fasting and prayer preceding c. 〈◊〉 was justly deposed by the Church if unjustly in both these respects as your Narration implies page 16. why was Mr. Ward put upon acknowledging his sin to the Church and put in the same condition with them who had dealt so unjustly both materially and formally and whether this was not a meanes to hinder the Churches repentance and humiliation for their sin when they should be put but to doe as Mr Ward But if Mr Ward were justly doposed why was the Church then put upon publike acknowledgement and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves before God and man and whether was Mr Bridge as well as the Church injoyned to confesse his sinfull aberration in it in that he did not interpose his authority and interest in the Church nor speake a
so there is need of Synods for the governing of the Church and for the preventing of herâ—…fies In a word all things are loose in independent Government every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their owne eyes if they like not any Church whereof they are members they may goe to another nay a few in a Church disliking that Church may goe make a Church themselves and make Ministers and hold what they will as Mr Sympson did with some few more and since some have rent from Mr Sympsons Church as he from Mr Bridge The rules they goe by are loose nothing being fixed nor certaine among them and there can be no setlednesse of mind nor consistence of Principles in that way simple and well meaning people according to their Principles must be drawn till they come to that to hold that there are no true Churches nor Ministers at all yet upon the earth which principle begins to take and spread already amongst many Independents In a word that Liberty and loosenesse which is from first to last in Independent Government holding no authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation to remedie or prevent any matter and that which is in the particular Congregation being on many Grounds and Principles of theirs so slight and weake as the only subject of Excommunication being no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. as that two or three Saints or now of late six or seven may with-draw from Churches defective and impure and make Churches and chuse all officers c. with other like so that what need they care then for that Church of which they are members though cast out seeing they can make new and have all to their owne minde be chiefe there is a dangerous temptation even to sober men to make them presume to broach that practise that which else they would never have done But in the Order and Government of the Reformed Churches there is consistence unitie and strength as is evident by a hundred yeares visible experience of Gods blessing from heaven upon them there is also a certainty and fixednesse of rules agreed on both for particular congregations for Classes and Synods there is an awing and preserving of officers and people in their bounds and keeping them from running out to errours c. there being no man be he never so able or subtill that can escape calling to account and censure Magistrates and Ministers have their power in the Church without usurpation and confusion and to conclude in the words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were Magistrates and civill power acquainted with this order and government of the Church they would finde their authoritie increased their worke more easie and their places more comfortable thereby And now having given an answer to that part of your Apologie under that instance of the government and discipline of the Churches by speaking fully of those five heads unto which I referre all your discourse about the government and discipline of the Churches beginning in pag. 12. and ending in the 21. I will for a close speake something to some of your passages contained in this part of your Narration which could not so well be taken in nor so properly animadverted upon under those five heads without the Readers being much confounded and entangled 1. To that passage p. 14. We had for the most part of the time we were abroad three Elders at least in each congregation whom we were subject to I aske if the Churches were subject to the Elders you many times having but three and sometimes but two nay one Elder the government of your Churches then was either Monarchicall Government or Oligarchicall at best And if the Churches were subject to the Elders who were the Elders subject to the Elders then were under no subjection but if the Churches were subject to the Elders and not the Elders to the Churches riddle me what is the meaning of all those phrases the Church still did so and so not the Elders the Church at Roterdam deposed M. Ward and not M. Bridge and an Elder or two and so M. Nye and M. Goodwin the Ministers were sent by the Church and that Church which had offended confessed their sin and restored their Minister to his place againe which sure was not M. Bridge and a lay-Elder or two 2. To those passages of Churches offended calling to an account Churches offending proceeding to full and open tryals and examinations to Iudiciarie charges and deposition of witnesses openly before all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where Authority about them enjoyns it and of a particular Church being censurable by neighbour Churches about them I desire to put this disjunctive proposition Either this power of calling to an account examining deposing witnesses censuring them c. are acts of ruling and government and in the Churches challenged acts of subjection or they are not if you grant they be acts of rule and government then there is an authoritative power which Churches have out of their Churches and you grant it in such acts at least though not in that of excommunication But whether if it be so in these that of excommunication will not follow let it be considered for either the censure of excommunication is not founded upon the common grounds on which callings to account and some censures are or else there is some proper peculiar grounds in the nature of that ordinance or in the Scripture forbidding that though allowing others neither of which will be found to have a foundation in Scripture and if so why then doe you make all this adoe of entire full compleate power within your selves and are against the combination of Churches in Classes and Presbyteries to doe that constantly certainely and presently upon scandals that fall out in a Church which you doe at best but at uncertainties and after a long time when the remedy may come too late a yeare or two afterwards But if you answer these are no acts of government and rule in this Church or Churches but meerely acts of consultation advice perswasion and that when the Churches offended have heard all they only give their counsell and advice and commend it to them but it is in their liberty to doe or not to doe for though they submit to a hearing and open triall by vertue of the principle of submission yet they submitted not to stand to the determination and agreement of that Church or Churches I answer if you meane no more then the bare power of counsell and advice in all this and no power of Authoritative determination and decision this is no more nor you give no more to the Churches offended then to particular Christians who may counsell them in such cases And why then doe you hold out such words and your practise of a full and
open triall and what speake you of roome for complaints and of subjecting to an open triall and review of what can be brought and of being censurable by neighbour Churches c. Whether be not all these the usuall phrases and expressions of acts of power and government can there be so much as triall and examination and judiciary charges and deposition of witnesses without authority much lesse censure can you ever shew it either in civill government in Common-wealth or in Ecclesiasticall in Churches out of Scripture or stories where all these acts were exercised and practised by persons who only had power of counsell and advice and if you cannot how can you make it good but that this must be more then advice and counsell namely authoritative power It is given as a rule by your selves that in matters of a common nature 't is in Ecclesiasticall government as in civill Now if in all civill Assemblies all these acts and practises be acts of authority and government why holds it not so in Ecclesiasticall And further to reason though Churches be sisters and equall each considered by it selfe yet in cases of offence and difference between Churches the Churches complained and appealed unto to whom the rest submit should now be greater and have more power in this thing then the Churches submitting and their acts should be authoritative as in reason 6 or 8 men falling out and choosing and submitting to others to heare the businesse and make an end of it these are now greater and have a power and authority over these quo ad hoc and in these acts and what they doe are acts of power which they must stand unto or suffer the penalty Thirdly You speake more then once upon occasion of this scandall committed in that Church at Rotterdam of Churches as in the plurall number sister Churches to be consulted with before hand and of your Churches mutually and universally acknowledging that principle of submission and how that Church â—…hich with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence and of requiring a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation Now what and where were those other Churches of whom all this is spoke I grant that at Arnheim was one Church that Mr Bridges Church should have consulted with or have submitted to but where were any other Churches I will yeeld the Church at Arnheim might by letters declare their offence but I know not what other Churches did by letters doe the like I grant the Church at Arnheim was a Church of our Nation before whom the offending Church did yeeld a publike hearing but I know of no other I will not question but that the Church at Arnheim and Mr Bridges Church did upon the offence of deposing Mr Ward acknowledge that principle of submission and submit to one another but I doubt no other did then mutually submit for besides the Church at Arnheim offended and Mr Bridges Church offending there was no other Church of your way and communion for the offending Church to consult with or that did write letters or before whom the businesse was heard c. for I suppose and judge Mr Simpsons new Church being at that difference with Mr Bridges Church and Mr Bridge with him Mr Bridges Church should not have consulted with Mr Simpsons before hand and that Mr Bridges Church would not have yeelded the principle of submission to have submitted to a full triall and examination of all proceedings before Mr Simpsons and in case Mr Simpsons Church had sent letters declaring their offence they would have declined it as partiall and as accounting them the parties offending and I never heard that Mr Simpson with some messengers of his Church joyned with the messengers of Arnheim in the triall of that businesse of Mr Ward or sate as Judges c. so that I cannot tell why you use Churches in the plurall number thus all along in that businesse but that the Reader might conceive for your greater authority and esteeme and for the greater solemnity of the action there were more Churches besides that at Arnheim Fourthly For those two Gentlemen who were sent with the Ministers of the Church offended to require an account whether were those Gentlemen Elders of the Church of Arnheim or private members only If they were not Elders why were private members sent before Elders shew us a rule for that and satisfie us how private persons and no officers of the Church should represent the Church but if they were Elders why doe you name them Gentlemen only and not speake of them as officers 5. Whether though you make so sure of it yet it be not to be doubted upon the grounds of reason and light of nature that it is not more brotherly and more suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with but a point of greater authority inequality and usurpation for foure men grant them to be a Church representative to take upon them what those foure members of Arnheim did to a whole Church for so many dayes so fully and judiciarily to proceed as you write in the 21 page then for a whole Presbyterie of Ministers and Elders or a grave Synod to call to an account and heare the offences of two or three in a particular Church and together with that Church representative to decree such censures as publike acknowledgement of their offences or excommunication c. Sixtly I much wonder how you can call the meeting of Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye with two Gentlemen more calling Mr Bridge with the rest of that Church supposed to be delinquents such a solâ—…mne Assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an imprâ—…ssion upon your hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever you have beeâ—… present at Certainely you have either been but at few solemne Assemblies where Christs dreadfull presence hath been or else your phancie was mighty high at that time as to make such a deepe impression upon you of a dreadfull presence as ever you have been at Let me aske Mr Nye what was this Assembly beyond the solemne generall Assembly of Scotland where you were present when the great solemne Covenant of the Kingdomes passed of which you write so highly into England or was it beyond the Assembly of Divines wherein not only two of you are for consultation but all you â—…ive with so many other godly Divines where instead of two Gentlemen assisting then here the Worthies of both Houses Lords and Commons assist nay a Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe where much of the piety learning and wisedome of two Kingdomes are met in one as your selves confesse afterwards in the 27 page I am of the mind there are ordinarily many Assemblies and where you may have been that have a more dreadfull presence of Christ then that had The Church meeting to partake in the Lords Supper cal'd the dreadfull and terrible houre by some of the Fathers
of the piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one c. which testimony given by you to this Assembly and that Character given by you of the people and the Professours of this Kingdome in page 24. and 28. are worthy to be observed and are of great use in these times when the Assembly and their proceedings are so much traduced and spoken against by your followers and Churches and let me make this use of it to the people and sadly put this question to their Consciences Whether is more probable that an Assembly so judicious of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the pietie wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one going in Gods way as you say page 28. making it their worke and businesse to find out the Government and the truth about the order of the Church visible and giving freedome of debates to men of different mindes and apprehensions seeking God publiquely and privately daily with so many prayers put up for them in all Churches at home and abroad beyond the Seas should find out the truth or Mr Lockyer Mr Batchelor Mr Carter with a company of weake ignorant men and women youths and maids apt to be seduced and ready to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way As to those words We would much rather have chosen to have been venting them to the multitude apt to be seduced I answer so you did much rather chuse to vent your opinions and principles both in publique and private to the multitude apt to be seduced according to the opportunities you had these three yeares then to communicate them to your godly brethren of the Ministerie as I have before fully shewed For this passage of yours But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ wee have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State whether this be so or no that you have had a conscientious regard to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truth and reforming the Churches of Christ let my last answer and what is before proved witnesse and if out of a conscientious regard to the orderly c. you adventured to be members of the Assembly and upon this way by an Assembly of searching out truths why did you not before the Assembly forbeare the disorderly and unpeaceable way of venting your selves to the multitude and of gathering Churches c. as also since the Assembly the disorderly and unpeaceable way of searching out truths in writing this Apologie in preaching some Sermons with some other practises which were no orderly nor peaceable wayes of searching out truths especially the Assembly sitting But them beleeve you that will I judge and that upon grounds and hints already given that other things made you adventure to be of the Assembly and to come thither constantly rather then the conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and I cannot let passe without some animadversions the phrase used by you here of your being members of the Assembly We have adventured our selves a very significant and true expression for I beleeve you accounted this Assembly a great Adventure for your Church-way and such a bottome as you would not have put it in at least not so soon if all the wayes you could have devised under heaven would have hindred it but it happened to you according to the Proverbe Nothing venture nothing have for supposing there must be an Assembly you might perhaps by being members of it doe your selves and way some good but by declining and refusing it you had been certainly lost But brethren what is the reason that in this Section wherein you give so full a testimonie to the Assembly and of your great adventuring to be members of it that you annex in the close these words following And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages both of number abilities of learning Authoritie the streame of publique interest trusting God both with our selves and his own truth c. Whether does not this somewhat reflect upon the Assembly as if there were a great hazard that things would be carried there by number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest rather then by truth for if points were not likely to be carried so by plurality of Votes c. but by the clearest proofes from Scripture then these were no disadvantages to you but all the advantage would lie on that side whether many or few whether greater Scholars or lesse that could bring the strongest Scripture grounds and I must tell you that in such an Assembly as you confesse this is and is well known to be both for the persons and ends of its calling that great liberty of speech and debate with that solemne Protestation taken by every member at first sitting there a man need not account those things specified by you for any disadvantages for any two or three men nay one of a different judgement in Doctrine or discipline from that Assembly having truth on his side and but so much learning as to manage and make out his evidences though a man of no authority might easily cause the consciences of most there to owne and fall downe before that truth and to change their mindes yea and to blesse God for the light and imbrace the person or persons that brought it much lesse need you whose number is sufficient about ten besides some who are halfe Independents having parts and abilities enough and Authority to manage your arguments and even to command free and long audience complaine of these things for disadvantages but I am jealous this passage is here inserted and brought in to possesse the peoples minds fearing by this time this Apologie was set out things might not goe on your side and to give them something to confirme them in your way to teach them what to say namely though you had the truth and brought such strong arguments as were not answered yet you could not be heard but matters were carried against you by pieces the greater number of the Assembly by far being of another judgement as also by the streame of publike interest Authority c. And many of the people of the Church way speake thus already that the Assembly cannot answer your arguments but beare you downe with numbers the Parliament should have done well to have chosen as many of your way as on the other side and then there would have been a faire and even triall but I will examine all your disadvantages apart and give you and the Reader a particular account of them First For Number though you have not so many of your judgement in the Assembly yet you have a competent number to plead your cause and to be the mouth for all of your way to speake
occasion for drawing up such answers to it and you can blame none but your selves as would upon necessitie discover and lay open both matter of fact and opinions more then ever else there would have been any pretence of ground to have done it As for referring the vindication of your Persons to God and a further experience of you by men I answere that without great repentance for this Apologeticall Narration and some other practises since your returne into England in stead of Gods vindicating your Persons you cannot but expect God will visit you and whether hereafter men may have occasion to vindicate you upon further experience of you I referre that to time but for the experience they have had of you this Parliament before the writing of this Apologie and by the writing of it and since till this very day they can have no great cause of vindicating you but rather particularly by this Apologie they have matter of great offence and scandall And I judge this Apologie hath in one sence given a further experience of your wayes and spirits to men then the experience of many yeares hereafter might have done As for referring the Declaration of your judgements and what you conceive to be Gods truth therein to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly why did you not as you speake referre it to the agitation of the Assembly but write this booke just before the agitation wherein you had declared your judgements in the points controverted and let me aske you seeing you meant to referre the declaration of your judgements to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly why would you agitate the points before hand as in this Apologie in so undue and disorderly a way why would you so publiquely engage your selves in print before hand yea and peremptorily conclude the points before ever disputed as in the 22 24. pages you doe And let me tell you you had neâ—… agitate what you conceive to be truth in this cause more duly and orderly in the Assembly then you doe in the Apologie for I beleeve this Apologie considering all circumstances was borne and brought forth the most out of due time and order of any booke put forth thiâ—… forty yeares As for that clause of this Assembly whâ—…reof both Houses were pleased to make us members it might have been here spared because in the title of the book and in other places you speake of your selves as memberâ—… of the Assembly but if you added it here as by way of acknowledgement of the great favour and good pleasure of the Houses to make you so being members of other Churches then the Church of England and having received another Ministery and never purposing to be bound by the determinations of the Assembly then there may be some reason of this addition And whereas our silence upon all the forementioned grounds for which we know we can never lose esteeme with good and wise men hath been by the ill interpretation of some imputed either to our consciousnesse of the badnesse and weaknesse of our Cause or to our unabilitie to maintain what we assert in diffâ—…rence from others or answer what hath been written by others we shall with all modesty onely present this to all mens apprehensionâ—… in confutation of it That what ever the truth and justnesse of our Cause may prove to be or how slendâ—…r our abilitiâ—…s to defend it yet we pretend at least to so much wisedome that we would never have reserved our selves for but rather by all wayes have declined this Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe an Assembly of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the Piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one honoured and assisted with the presence of the Worthies of both Houses at all debates as often as they please to vouchsafe their presence as the stage whereon first we would bring forth into publique view our Tenets if false and counterfâ—…it together with our owne folly and weaknesse We would much rather â—…ave chosâ—…n to have been vâ—…nting them to the multitude apt to be seduced which we have had these three yeares opportunity to have done But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ we have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the providence of the State And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages which we could not but foresee both of number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest Trusting God both with our selves and his owne truth as he shall be pleased to manage it by us I answer whereas you speake of silence upon all the forementioned grounds you have not been silent in the Pulpits and among the people but in many Sermons and in divers Congregations and at sundry times most of you have both plainly particularly and at large besides more darkly and generally preached your Church-way so that what you would inferre is denyed you for had you indeed been silent amongst the people and where you ought to have kept silence you could not have lost esteeme with good and wise men but it had beene your praise with God and Men but this is that I charge you with and for which you may well suffer in the thoughts of good and wise men that you have been very silent and reserved where you should have spoken and have been desired and where the free and plaine declaring your judgements would not have prejudiced the forementioned grounds but on the other hand where you should have been silent and your speaking could tend to no other ends but to diâ—…union in dividing the godly party and to the increasing of your owne party there you have been free to speake out but to your godly and learned brethren in the Ministery differing from you you never brought in a Narrative of your Tenets as was desired and you promised nor ever laid downe clearly your positions with the grounds of them as who but you would in three yeares time have done and have desired satisfaction but you still declined disputes and reasonings upon the points in difference as upon that about Formes of Prayer whereupon the meeting among Ministers was laid aside for a time You never answered any of the bookes written by men of much worth and learning and with much strength and moderation as your selves confesse but it was still given out by your followers upon the comming forth of the bookes they should be answered and that the Question was mistaken and you held not so with such like put off's You have declined giving in your positions and grounds to some Parliament men that desired them who promised to be ready to doe any thing for you provided they might know what your way was and see your grounds to consider of them whether they were according to Scriptures but now in Pulpits and in houses
whatever any of your way can say for it Secondly When an Assembly was first agreed upon there were not many more Ministers and Schollers of your way in the Kingdome who were capeable of such a service how ever you may be encreased since so that you had as much advantage as your condition was capeable of yea and favour too Thirdly Considering the many hundred Ministers in this Kingdome that petitioned for Reformation and subscribed the Remonstrance who also bore the heate of the day and never flinched for it and the small number of the Independent who fled also to save their stake and to keepe in a whole skin having quitted to our Churches and Ministery and making no account to be bound by the determinations of the Assembly it is more in proportion both Arithmeticall and Geometricall to have Ten of you members in the Assembly then some hundreds of our Ministers and yet you know the whole number of Divines who meet there does not much exceed 80 persons Fourthly Number is little where conscientious men having taken such a Protestation come together to seeke out truth being free also to receive and chuse any government laid downe in the word and not over-awed by power or feare of crushing nor byased by hopes of preferment it is true in such an Assembly as the Convocation house of Bishops and their Clarkes was number was a great disadvantage Secondly For abilities of Learning I grant you there are many members of the Assembly goe farre beyond any of you in that yet among you all and in some particular men of you there are abilities enough of learning speech and wit to bring out and enforce to the greatest advantage upon study taking time which you doe and writing downe your grounds any Scripture or Reasons for your way so that you need not complaine for want of learning but rather for want of truth in your cause which will afford no better arguments for it Thirdly For Authority I know not well what you mean by that in this place you having so many doubtfull passages in your Apologie whether the Authority of Parliament or whether the Ministers who are for Presbytery have greater Authority in the Assembly then you or what else Now if you meane the first that the Presbyterian party hath the advantage of you namely the Authority of Parliament I answer the Parliament interposes no authority to determine what government shall be but calls the Assembly to advise with and draw up for them what government is most agreeable to the word giving also a liberty to the fewer number in matters of dissent to give in their Reasons as you in the 30th page grant and imply you will doe And as for the Parliament who are Authority there are but few Ministers of the Assembly who have been able to doe more with them then you or who have had a greater interest in their favour then your selves witnesse all passages of Parliament from first to last wherein the Parliament hath honoured any of the Ministers either in preaching before them upon solemne occasions or in calling this Assembly or in employing them about the Scottish affaires either in Englaâ—…d or into Scotland or in the setting up a Lecture at Westminster or in appointing Licensers for printing of bookes what ever it hath been or how few the number that have been employed though but two or three yet still an Independent hath beene one But secondly if you meane that the Ministers who differ in judgement from you have a greater Authority in the Assembly then you I answer you are all equall having a brotherly equality there the whole Assembly not having Authority that is Jurisdiction and power of censure over the meanest to cast him out or to hinder him from speech according to rule and order And as for authoritie of speaking in the Assembly and of being heard some of you have exercised as much of that as most there and for authority with the people to lead them whether you or most of the Ministers in the Assembly have the greatest is no controversie witnesse the deepe censures upon the Assembly and the godly Ministers every where by multitudes of the people but the great applause and crying up of you and other independents So that if authority with many well meaning people be an advantge it is on your side and that hath done you heretofore some service to make many men more shie of preaching against your way because of your great authority with the people that being ground enough to put many men out of the state of grace with some sorts of people besides â—…f authority in the peoples hearts could sway any thing with the Assembly against the truth yea but to suspend their judgements about the truth as I am confident it doth not then you would have the advantage of authority to sway the Assembly rather to your side then against you 4. For the fourth disadvantage the streame of publike interest this is a dangerous insinuation against the Assembly yea and the Parliament too without whom nothing the Assemby doth can be of any validitie as if they would be carried with the streame of publike interests rather then by the word of God and would bend the word of God to the streame of publike interest now let me put you this Dilemma either the publike interest of this Kingdome at this time will stand and agree with the word of God or it will not if it will stand then not only the Assembly but you also should be for that interest accounting the publike interest so suiting to the word of God an advantage but if it will not stand with the word but that the streame of publike interest runnes one way and Gods word another way can you think the Assembly will be carried with publike interest and leave the streame of the word would not the Assembly rather follow the word of God accounting walking according to that the greatest and most publike interest hath the Parliament Kingdome and Ministers done and suffered so much for a Reformation according to the word of God and now after all this is there a streame of publike interest divided from the word to carry away the Ministers called together according to which a government must be framed and the Church reformed and this is the great disadvantage that some members of the Assembly who would goe according to the word of God meet withall and must be put to swimme against Bretheren what will the Prelates say of our Reformation and Church government when you speake thus have not you put a sword into their hands this day against us and shall we not heare of it but I wish bretheren whilst you thus asperse the Assembly with the danger of being carried a way with the streame of publike interest that the streame of your own particular private interest and credit among the people did not too much carry you away as many other waies so in writing