father that he will send him I will pray saith he vnto the Father and he shall send you another coÌ„forter And in the same place where he saith he will send him he preuenteth say they the opinion might be conceyued of his proceeding from him in that he sayth he wil send froÌ„ the Father the spirit of truth which proceeds froÌ„ the father c To which they further adde that there is a great difference betweene the teÌ„poral sending of the holy ghost at our Lords request on the Apostles and the eternall proceeding of the said Spirit which is the poynt in question D. Tillenus his answere The proceeding of the Holy-Ghost which is the thirde poynte which he maynteineth to haue no ground in scripture hath his proofe in the scripture by the schoolmen themselues against the Greeks who receiued this article without any greate difficulty in the Councell of Florence in which was present Iohn Paleologus Emperour of Constantinople but they receiued but fainedly and by constraynte of theire Emperour who stood in neede of the Westerne Churches the Articles of the Popes Supremacy of TraÌ„substantiation of Purgatory and other like which are without and against the scripture Yet ther were some Bishops there that would neuer consent vnto them but afterwards caused all to be reuoked imputing the losse of the Easte Empire which hapned shortly after this councell to that vnluckie vnion that there was made with the Pope Now as the principall questions touching the holy ghost of his nature and of his office haue alwayes been determined by the scripture against the ArriaÌ„s Eunomians Macedonians so also may therein be shewed his proceeding from the father and from the Sonne The place in saint Paule cannot be shifted of by his distinction of possession and proceeding 〈◊〉 8.9 〈◊〉 .6 as if he spake onely of the gifte possession of the spirit that Iesus Christ receued according to his humaÌ„ity For the same spirit is there called both the spirit of Christ the spirit of him that raysed vp Christ And when saint Peter saieth that it was the spirit of christ by which the Prophets haue prophecied 〈◊〉 1.11 he quite cutteth of the bishops answere For seeing that the prophets haue prophesied before the incarnatioÌ„ of christ they cannot haue prophesied by the spirit in as much as it was giuen to the humanity of christ and on the other side the Scripture witnesseth in infinite places that this spirit of the Prophets was the spirit of God the father which sheweth as cleerely that the holy ghost proceedeth from the father the sonne as the consubstaÌ„tiality of the son with the Father by confereÌ„ce of the places in the Prophets that speak of Iehoua with the places in the Euangelists and Apostles which appropriate them vnto Christ The exaÌ„ple of Heliseus that receiued the Spirit of Helias is as little to purpose as the former distinctioÌ„ Iohn 15 Iesus Christ saith that it is he that well send this spirit shewing his diuine power Helias answereth to Helizeus when hee asked him double portion of his spirit Thou askest a hard thing meaning that it is not giuen by the power of man Christ saith not that it is an hard thing for him to send the Comforter contrariwise he saith all that his father hath is his also He gaue it indeed and in effecte to the Apostles breathing on them and saying Receaue the Holy ghost Iohn 20 And whereas du Perron sayth that this may bee expounded of the possession domination of the creatures ouer which the Father hath giuen him all power As wheÌ„ the father of the prodigal child saith to his eldest son the like words All that is mine is thine J answer as aboue is alredy sayd that the spirit is in the son as in the Father And as is shewed that the Spirit proceedeth from the father by the places which say That the Father seÌ„deth him froÌ„ the Father so also may be shewd his proceeding froÌ„ the soÌ„ by the places Gal 4.6 Iohn 5.1 god seÌ„deth the spirit of his soÌ„ the soÌ„ doth al things that the Father doth c. Jt is obiected that it is said That the Spirit proceedeth froÌ„ the father That Christ sayth he wil pray the father to seÌ„d him to which J answer that Christ in those places speketh as Mediator in which he is lesse that the father so hee sayth that the father is greater than hee And yet he saith the father wil send him in his name Iohn 14 Iohn 15 which couÌ„teruayleth that other saying that he will send him from the father As for the difference betwixt the temporall mission of the holy Ghost and his eternall proceeding J say that this eternall proceeding is nothing else but the communication of the Diuine esseÌ„ce by which the third person of the Trinity receiues all the same Essence from the Father and from the sonne as being the spirit of them both And seeing that the Greekes beleeue with vs that the holy Ghost is God that he is equall to the father and to the Sonne against the Arrians and Macedonians and that he is a distinct person from the father and from the sonne againste the Sabellians we are not to hould them for heretickes in this poynt though they had certaine particulare manners of speaking for as much as heresy is not in the words but in the sense as Saint Hierome saith Many among the auncient fathers are not held for hereticks though they speake often improperly of the misteryes of the trinity of which number is S. Hillary 2 de Triâ—c who in many places putteth three substances in God against the sownd maner of speaking whereof hee excuseth himselfe saying that these things surpasse al signification of wordes all intention of sence all conceptioÌ„ of sence all conception of vnderstanding But the Church of Rome is rightly holden for heretical which in many things doth attribute vnto it self the office of the holy ghost As wheÌ„ it sayth that one caÌ„not be assured of the truth and diuinity of the Scripture but onely by the testimony that that Church giueth of it The Bishop of Eureux The fourth poynte which we haue propounded is the translation of the Saboath to Sunday Euery one knoweth how rigorous the commandement of the Sabaoth was in the old law and how the gretest both thretnings promises of god were made to those that violated or obserued his Sabbaths And notwithstanding this commandement of God that god had vouchsafed to write with his own hand in the 10 precepts of the decalogue to sequester it as by speciall priuiledge froÌ„ all precepts of the ceremoniall law for to insert it in the Epitome of the morall law Yet the church hath changed it with out any written ordinance both as touching the end the forme â—â—d the matter First as concerning the end Saturday was ordayned to commemorate the Creation of the world gods rest after
contrarie the first intention of the Apostles was to deliuer the doctrines to the Church by tradition of liuely voice word vnwritten Also he saith that the Apostles wrote but by incident or chance Fol. 35. and vpon secondary occasions Let vs see this Enthymeme or imperfect argument of the PirrhoniaÌ„ Logicke The Apostles first taught by liuely voyce Ergo they pretended not to teach by their writings which succeeded their preaching The consequence is as good as who should say One eateth first for to nourish himselfe therfore drink serueth nothing to nourishment A non distributo ad distributum c. If he make an opposition between the coÌ„mandement of the spirit of God the incideÌ„t or the occasioÌ„s which moued the Apostles to write he blasphemeth in diuinitie denying the places of scripture 2. Tim. 3.1 2. Pet. 1.20 21. where it is called inspired of God and doteth in Logick excluding the efficient and principal cause because of the instruments and means that it vseth Also the Apostle saint Iude saith Iude. 3. that there was a necessitie of writing imposed vpon him And in the Reuelation we read that saint Iohn is more than ten times commaunded to write We know that to preach and to write are things verie accordant and which were comprehended in one and the same commaundement giuen to the Apostles â—ath 28 to teach all nations which yet to this day they teach by their writings He which commaunded them the thing which is to teach commaunded also the manners of teaching which are to preach with liuely voice and to set forth the doctrine in writing both of them being fit for teaching and this latter most fit for to continue and to transferre doctrines or instructions vnto posteritie â—enaeus li 3 p 1 So Irenaeus vnderstandeth it saying The Apostles after they had preached with liuely voice the Gospell afterwards gaue it vs in the scriptures by the will of God for to be the foundation and pillar of our faith So the booke intituled Manuale CuratoruÌ„ sheweth it saying there are three sorts of preachings One is by writing as saint Paule did writing to the Romanes Corinthians c. Another is by actions so euery action of Iesus Christ is our instruction the third is by word liuely voyce The Bishop of Eureux for to shew that hee is not alone in his opinion produceth foure places of foure ancient Fathers â—hat is by â—â—ose of our â—â—de often propounded and expounded namely that they shuld be vnderstood not of matters of faith but of the order gouernance of the Church which things being of their owne nature ambulatory subiect to change according to the diuersity of the circumstances of times places persons could not or should not be written Or if they speak of some doctrine not coÌ„teined in the scripture they meane it of the formal tearms which are not there as the words trinity coessentiall sacrameÌ„t the sense matter of which notwithstanding is therin found is drawen from thence either by analogy of faith or by necessary consequence Otherwise it would follow that they had gainsaid contradicted themselues a confess fid sum mor. 72 1. sum 80 22. ere 's to wit S. Basil wheÌ„ he saith that it is a most manifest marke of infidelity a most certain signe of pride to reiect any thing of that which is writteÌ„ or to bring in any thing which is not written S. Epiphanius All things are cleare in the scripture to those which by a holy vse of reasoÌ„ wil draw nere the word of god which haue not coÌ„ceiued an operation of the diuel such as they conceiue 〈◊〉 1. Timoth. â—om that accuse the scripture of imperfection endeuoring to cast themselues into the gulfe of death S. Chrysostome maketh saint Paule speake to Timothie in this manner In stead of mee thou hast the scriptures if thou desirest to learne any thing thou maist doe it from thence Then he addeth De doctrin Christ l. 2. c. If he wrote so to Timothie who was full of the holy Ghost how much more ought wee to thinke that it is spoken of vs. It is manifest that this Father thought that the intention of the Apostles was to leaue to the Churches their writings in stead of instructions by word of mouth which they could not continue after their death Saint Augustine saith In Psal 132 Among the things which are Openly declared in the scripture are All those which containe faith and manners that is Hope and Charitie There is to quitte his foure places and in pieces of the same coyne If hee will agree them let him bestirre himselfe better than he did in the answere he giueth to the place of saint Hilarie that hath these words That which is not conteined in the booke of the law we ought not so much as to know it Hee saith that this should be vnderstood of the Apocrypha books alledged in quality of Canonical What a mockery is this Is not the sentence of S. Hilarie generall or if it be not general is it not vnapt friuolous But the reply was ready That there be many other things to be knowne besides them which are coÌ„teined in the law which conteineth not so much as the principal points viz. the immortality of the soule the resurrection of the body c. What Apocrypha Logick is this to draw an vniuersall conclusion from particular premises And when the same father saith in another place It is good that we content our selues with the things which are written can that plaister cure or so much as couer the wound that this place maketh in his vnwritten Traditions And here let the reader be aduertised once for all That al the sentences of the Fathers how generall soeuer they be what vniuersall marke soeuer be set vpon them are euer shifted off by a restraining them to some particular deed As if the Hypothesis were not decided by the Thesis a particular case by a generall Law which is to make a laughing stocke of the Fathers and to depriue them euen of common sense in making them reason so vnaptly and in occasioning their aduersaries to make vnto them so easie and iust replies To returne to Hilarie the Bishop of Eureux opposeth to the aboue said place another of the same Father taken out of his Commentarie on the second Psalme where he saith That Moses after hee had written the words of the olde Testament consigned certaine more secret mysteries to the seuentie Elders c. which place he saith I haue not read and calleth me a bad scholler in skipping ouer the beginning of the booke for to studie at the end I answere hee sheweth that he himselfe hath not read the note set vpon the margeÌ„t of this place non credo which Hilar. Paris ex â—ffici Carol. Guillar anno 1544. with the authoritie of saint Hierome thinking that these commentaries vpon the Psalmes are for
Iewish law for to distinguish in like sort those which were corporally sprung from Abraham to discerne them from other nations the other spirituall Imperauit saith Joseph Ahae vt genitalia circūcideret voluit enim Deus vt genus eius nō permisceretur alijs gentibus And for this cause all the time they were in the wildernes those that were born were not circumcised because they were not mingled with other nations as S. Hierom Damascen do obserue Wheras Baptism hauing but one only vse which is spirituall the bare circumstances of circumcision conclude nothing that hath any necessary consequence for Baptism D. Tillenus his answer We do not reason of the bare circumstances of circumcision but of the substāce For we leaue to the children of the lewes that which it tēporally figured vnto them but seing it had also towards them a spirituall vse which is the very substance of this Sacrament wherfore shold we depriue therof the childrē of christians seing that Iesus christ came not into the world to diminish the spiritual blessings but to encrease fulfil them If du Perron thinke the intermission of Circumcision in the wildernes was not a transgression of the Law of God he is deceiued Iosh 5. ◠For after that Ioshuah had circūcised the Israelites in Gilgall he said he had taken away from them the shame of Egypt meaning therby that through contempt of gods couenant they were vnworthy thereof hauing shewed by this their negligence that their harts were still in Egypt whither they would fayne haue returned Num 1 The B. of Eureux Thirdly Circumcision left a perpetuall marke in the flesh which was alwaies a sensible token to him that had receiued it that he had beene circumcised whereas Baptisme leaueth not any sensible marke sauing in the knowledge and memorie of him that was baptized And therefore Baptisme seemeth to require an age capable of knowledge and memory D. Tillenus his answer Seing Baptisme bringeth the same spirituall fruit to the children of Christians that Circumcision brought to the children of the Iews as hath bene shewed this consideration of a corporall mark is friuolous The circumcised child can no more know nor remember how and wherefore his foreskin was cut off than the Christian child his baptisme and therfore both the one the other must be instructed when he is capable thereof In Abraham who was adopted into the couenant in a perfect age knowledge instruction and faith went before the Sacrament but in Isack born in the couenāt the Sacrament went before knowledge because according to the promis he was reputed the child of God from his mothers womb So we do not confer Baptism to the child of a Jew or a Pagā we blame the church of Rome which cōmitteth this abuse prostituting the sign of the couenant to those that are not cōprehēded therin not staying til they may enter into it by knowledge faith which is as great a mockery as to set a seale to a paper wherin there is nothing written The B. of Eureux 4. In circumcision there was but one materiall sign without the word wheras in Baptism aswell the elemēt as the word are of the essēce of the sacramēt Tolle aquā saith S. Aug nō est baptismus tolle verbū non est baptismus It seemes that he that is baptized and to whome the word of Baptisme is directed must bee capable not onely of the elementary signe but also of the word which was not requisite in Circumcision D. Tillenus his answer His fourth reason is as false as the former are vaine For if there be not the word also in Circumcision then is it not a sacrament And how should it haue bin instituted of God without the word 17.11 The promise that God addeth in the institution of it saying you shall circumcise the foreskin of your flesh and it shall be a sign of the couenant between me and you This is a word as expresly written as that which the institution of Baptisme conteineth 8.19 Baptize all nations in the name of the Father of the sonne and of the holy ghost He which sayd tolle verbum non est Baptismus take away the word it is no Baptisme sayd also Accedat verbum ad Elementum fiat Sacramentum Adde the word to the element and it becommeth a Sacrament As in Baptism the pronunciation of the sacramentall words is grounded on the institution of Iesus Christ so Circumcision was not to be administred without speaking of the vse and efficacy of the same as appeareth by the example of Ioshuah aboue alledged And doubtlesse Abraham before he circumcised his family instructed them in the doctrine thereof For see the testimony that god giueth of him 19. I know saith he that he will teache his children and his houshold to obserue the way of the Lord. 7. Moyses commandeth carefully to instruct children and he speaketh euer of the Law of god of which Circumcision was a part The B. of Eureux Fiftly though all things which had place in Circumcision should haue their corresponcy to Baptisme yet would it not bee for all that necessary that it were a correspondency of Identity but a correspondency of Analogie would suffice As the ceremonie of sowr hearbs and of the staffe they should holde in their handes in eating the Paschall Lamb is not literally accomplished in the Eucharist but onely spiritually inasmuch as we eate it with contrition and bitternesse for our faultes and as pilgrimes and passengers in this world iourneying into another life So the temporall infancie to which Circumcision was applied may haue his correspondēcy to Baptism only in the spirituall infancie by which we must become children for to bee baptized according to the saying of our Sauiour If you become not as little children you shall not enter into the kingdome of heauen And therefore to those that were already hoarie with olld age they did not sticke in the primitiue Church to giue hony and milke to eate Ad significandum infantiam saith S. Hierom. By which meanes the argument woulde hold good to conclude thus Circumcision was giuen to those which were little children of a temporall infancie therefore Baptisme may be giuen to those that are little children of a spirituall infancy that is to say that are become little children in maliciousnesse as saith saint Paul But to inferre Circumcision was giuen to little children of temporall infancy Baptisme therefore is to be conferred to those that are little children after the same manner the conclusion doth not enforce And therfore S. Augustin alledging this argument maketh account onely of it as of a coniecture D. Tillenus his answer If the temporall infancie of the Iewish children shoulde be referred onely to the spirituall infancie of Christians the reason of Iesus Christ would bee of no force when hee saith That children of a temporall infancy belong vnto him and should be brought vnto him Now we
can not bring them and put them into his armes visiblye and corporally Gal 3 â— Rom. 6 and the scripture teacheth that they which are baptized doo put on christ and are ingrafted into his body it followeth therefore that it is by this meanes that we shold bring them present them vnto him And Iesus christ sanctifieth and cleanseth by water in his word all those for whome he gaue himselfe to death Eph. 5 Now he dyed as well for children as for others seeing that the kingdome of heauen belongeth vnto them It followeth therfore that he sanctifieth and cleanseth them by the washing of water in his word 8 39 And saint Peter hauing sayd that euery one should be baptized for remission of sins and they should receiue the holy Ghost addeth This promise is made to you and to your children The similitude of the ceremonies of the Paschall Lambe whereupon hee groundeth his correspondency of Analogy perswadeth vs as litle as his reasons inforce vs. For all the ceremonies commaunded in the first institution of the Passeouer 2 were not literally fulfilled among the Iews especially in their yearly Passeouer As to eate it their loyns girt theyr shoos on their feet and a staffe in their hand which ceremony Du Perron should not ioyne with that of the sowr hearbs seing it was not of the number of the ordinary and belonged onely to the Passeouer celebrated in Egypt As also the ceremony of not going foorth of doors till morning And therefore our sauiour Christ celebrating the Passeouer transgressed not the law written in sitting at table and going foorth into the garden Besides the Paschall Lamb as J sayd aboue was rather a figure of the onely Sacrifice of Iesus Christ â— 7 0 4 â— 0. 2 17 who is the accomplishment of the Law and the body of all the shadows and ceremonies If there were question made of finding some correspondency betweene the ceremonies of Circumcision and the ceremonies that the Church of Rome hath added to Baptisme the B. of Eureux would be able to find therein as little Analogy as Identity The B. of Eureux The third argument is taken from the Actes where Saint Peter saith that hauing seene the holy Ghost come down on them that heard the word in the house of Cornelius he could not deny them Baptisme seeing they had receiued the same grace Wherof they conclude those that are capable of the same grace are capable of the same signe Now little children are capable of the same grace they are therefore capable of the same sign To which without standing to reply that in the olld Testament weomen are capable of the same grace and not of the same signe We may answer for the Anabaptists that those which are capable of the same grace and in the same manner or fashion are capable of the same signe But those that are capable of the same grace in diuers manners are not therefore for all that capable of the same signe Now little children will the Anabaptists say are capable indeed of the same grace as those that bee of age but not in the same manner for those of age are capable of grace by theyr owne personall faith and little children by their parents faith which is imputed vnto them And therfore to the former is requisite a Baptism proper and personall and to the others sufficeth the imputatiue Baptisme of their parents it being a thing reasonable that Baptisme do follow the quality of faith whereof it is a Sacrament And this answer serueth for all argumentes of like nature namely that little children are parte of the Church are capable of the kingdome of heauen whereof baptisme is the gate and entrance For after the same manner as they are capable of it that is to say no otherwise then by an imputed faith and not personall Baptisme would they say is communicated vnto them So that as they beleeue in the faith of their parents vntill they bee capable of a personall faith so are they Baptized in the Baptisme of their parentes till they bee baptized with a personall Baptisme namely when they are come to yeares of discretion and knowledge To these three reasons they adde a little light coniecture of that which Saint Paul said that he baptized the houshoulde of Stephan out of which they conclude that little children may he baptized Which argument is lame on both sides For first they must proue that there were little children in the houshold of Stephan which the scripture dooth not shew and secondly that those litle children were particularly baptized For although there had bin little children in that hous yet this witnes of S. Paul of hauing baptized the houshold of Stephan could for al that conclude nothing for them vnles there had bin expresse mention made that they were particularly baptized For one may always answer that in that he baptized the house of Steph is as much to say as he baptised all those that wer capable of Baptisme in that house As when it is sayd in Saint Iohn of the Ruler 53 Credidit ipse domus eius tota It can not be sayd that the little children in the cradle if there were any did beleeue but those who for their yeares were capable of beleefe Contrarywise to shew that this obiection of the house of Stephan in which is no testimony that there was any little children is far from making anything for them the Anabaptists replie that in the conuersion of Samaria by S. Phillip in which it cannot be doubted but that the conuerted parents had little children in the cradle the scripture euidently specifieth that Baptisabantur viri ac mulieres without making mention of little children D. Tillenus his answer Our third argument which he alledgeth is taken from the 10. of the Acts where saint Peter ordaineth Baptism to them that had receiued the Holy Ghost whence we conclude that they which are capable of the same grace are capable of the same signe And seeing that children are capable of the same grace of regeneration they cannot be vncapable of baptism which is the sign therof The same speculation which his answers conteineth if they were of any weight might haue had place as well against the Circumcision of little children and seeing that the different measure of grace did not depriue them of the signe in like manner ours ought not to be depriued of it The Scripture saith 11.12 that the Gentiles because they were not receiued into the couenant of Circumcision were without Christ without hope without God and strangers from the Couenants of promise The same Scripture sheweth vs that Baptism hath succeeded Circumcision Shall we then repute our children for straungers from the couenaunts of promise Shall we holld them only for children of the first Adam that is for children of wrath subiect to the curse for flesh and blood which cannot possesse the kingdom of heauen without bringing them to the second
Adam by whom they are sanctified and quickned If by faith imputed the B. of Eureux meaneth a quality without and foorth of children and if he say that they please God the Holy Ghost not making any reall change in them He destroyeth these principles of Scripture which say Reuel That none vncleane thing entreth into heauen Rom. 1 That the iust shall liue by his own faith That none hath accesse to the kingdom of heauen vnles he be regenerate That without faith it is vnpossible to please God Now faith and vnbeliefe are things immediatly contrary not that we would say that children do beleeue after the same manner as they that be of years with an actuall knowledge but that the Holy Ghost worketh in them an inclination and power to belieue taking away from their hart that which naturally repugneth VVhen saint Augustin saith that children are baptized in the faith of others as either of their parents or of them that present them or of the whole Church he excludeth not all operation of the Holy Ghost in the person of children which in another place he plainly confesseth to be in them As when he saith Aug. Ep ad Dar We say that the holy ghost dwelleth in litle children which are baptized though they know him not For in that they doo not know him it is no otherwise thē as they knovv not their reasonable soule yea their life Whereof notvvithstanding it doth not folow that they haue neither reasonable soule nor life This operation is as easy to god as to vs incomprehensible And the hart of an ould man before he be chaunged by regeneration is no lesse deaffe and vnable than the hart of a child the chaunge whereof is not none because it is vnknown likewise the disobedience and rebellion which is in them that be of years is a disposition contrary to faith which is not in litle ones who receiue oftentimes greater measure of grace than they that be of years vvho notwithstanding after our Aduersaries themselues are not vncapable of the externall sign though they ask it but of hypoctisy For he that administreth it vnto them can not knovv theyr fayth and capacity of grace seeing the Apostles themselues were therein deceiued Acts 8.1 as appeareth by the example of Simon Magus Seing then that the grace conferred to children by Baptism is a thing reall in their owne persons and not imputed only witnesse the examples of Ieremy and S. Iohn Baptist sanctified from their mothers womb an imputed signe is not sufficient no more than an imputatiue Paradise would suffice the possession wherof Iesus Christ promiseth vnto them so reall 8.3 as he affirmeth that none shall enter therinto vnles he receiue him as a little child Whereas he saith reason would that Baptisme should follow faith 〈◊〉 1 wherof it is a Sacrament that is altogether friuolous For Circumcision is also called the seale of the righteousnesse of faith and in another place the sign of repentance Let him therfore ask the reason of God why he did not defer Circumcision from children till such time as they were capable of such a faith and repentance as the Anabaptists require To that which he addeth that in the conuersion of Samaria men women ar only spoken of who were there baptized without any mention of litle ones though it cannot be doubted but that there wer som The answer hath bin made aboue namely that those were not born in the couenant therfore before they could be admitted thereunto by the sign of Baptism it behoued them to be instructed in the doctrine There needed not any speciall commandement touching the Baptism of little children to those that knew the foūdation of the new couenant by the correspondency of circumcision Children notwithstanding are comprehēded in the generall commandement of baptising all that shall be saued The B. of Eureux There is yet one reason that is very rife in the mouth of Catholicks being vnderpropped by the tradition of the church and by the interpretation which hath alwais run currant among catholicks namely Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua Spiritu sancto non potest introire in regnum Dei But this in the mouth of Caluin those of this sect is of no force For hee interpreteth there Aqua not for the elementary water but for the holy ghost And when it is replyed that that were a repetition of the same thing vnder two diuerse words he opposeth Baptisabit vos Spiritusancto igne wher he will haue Ignis Spiritus sanctus to be one and the same thing which he doth for to exclude the necessity of Baptism But in a word to all that will haue this place serue their turn the Anabaptists who reiect the tradition interpretation of the church do answer that this propositiō is to be vnderstood of them that are capable of Baptism As when it is said in the same chapter He that beleueth not is already iudged It is vnderstood say they of them which are of years to beleeue D. Tillenus his answer He would bereaue vs of the argument taken out of Saint Iohn Except a man be borne againe of water c. Ioh. 3.5 because we take this word Water for the spirit as in another place the word Fire and spirit signifie one and the same thing Math. 3 But although from this place canot bee concluded the absolute necessity of Baptism yet neuertheles we ought to conclude frō thence the absolute necessity of regeneration The Anabaptists vnderstāding this word water of outward Baptism as the Church of Rome doth do reasō thus seing Baptism is expresly called regeneration seing that children are not capable of regeneration which is doon by faith Baptisme is not to be communicated vnto them To which we answer For as much as regeneration is absolutely necessary to saluation children vnles they will damn them all are partakers therof therfore the seale of this grace of regeneration is rightly applyed vnto them The reply that du Perron maketh for them that this sentence of S. Iohn is to be vnderstood only of them that are capable of baptisme through yeares of knowledge is nothing currāt against vs but against the church of Rome which interpreteth this place of the absolute necessity of externall baptism of which it cannot otherwise choose but that many children are depriued and therefore excluded from saluation after their doctrine The B. of Eureux Now against these arguments which they so easily by their solutions vndoe when they are not constrained with the authoritie of Tradition and the interpretation of the Church they haue many other for it in apparance stronger as that Baptism is a dependaunce and a seale of faith and therefore that those that are not capable of faith are not capable of Baptisme That baptisme is called the washing of Regeneration That Regeneration is made by the worde of God you are all the children of
chance some water is cast seeing they want the chiefe and principall condition which maketh a man be a matter and subiect capable of Baptisme namely Fayth That they that are Baptized as saith Saint Paule haue put on Christ That Christ cannot bee put on out of the Church which is called the fullnes of Christ that therfore Baptisme cannot be among hereticks That euery one of you sayth Saint Peter be Baptized for remission of sinnes And the Creed of Constantinople I beleeue one Baptisme for remission of sinnes Now among the haereticks there is no remission of sinnes For the Keyes were giuen to the Church and by consequent no Baptisme that when it was tolde Iohn Baptist that Christ Baptized he answered none can doe it vnles it be giuen him from heauen that no authority is giuen from heauen to the assemblies of hereticks and therefore that they cannot Baptize That Baptisme is done by the power of the holy Ghost that the holy Ghost is not resident out of the Church neither consequently Baptisme D. Tillenus his answer First I answere that the hearers of the Scripture learne that whosoeuer is Baptised in the name of the father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost is well Baptised But the followers of the Romish tradition can neuer know whether they be well baptized or no For besides this instituti of Christ the Church of Rome requireth the intent of the Priest without which the Sacrament with theÌ„ is none Now there is no man that can be fully assured of another mans intent Secondly the scripture teacheth vs the difference betweene the outward sacrament the inward grace which is not inclosed within the other as a salue in a box as the Romish Tradition teacheth They that receiue the first receiue not alwaies the latter in what place soeuer it be as we see by the example of Iudas SymoÌ„ Magus For as saith S. Augustine 〈◊〉 5. de â—ont 〈◊〉 24 meÌ„ do put on Christ soÌ„times in participatioÌ„ of the sacrameÌ„t somtimes in sanctification of life the first is common to good and bad the other is peculiar onely to the good Neither hereticks nor orthodoxall can minister any thing but the outward sacrament the holy ghost onely giueth the internall grace that is fayth possessioÌ„ of Christ remissioÌ„ of sinnes All which is manifest in scripture But the Holy-ghost saith he is resident onely in the true Church and not among hereticks 2. J answere the scripture teacheth vs that the spirit blowes where it listeth if it were allwaies tyed to a visible church as the Pope to his seate of Rome â— 8 without distributing his graces elsewhere which is du Perrons meaning No infidell nor heretick borne out of the true church could euer enter thereinto by regeneration by which grace the holy ghost bringeth men thereunto 〈◊〉 17 Saint Paul persecuted the true Church so farre was hee from being a member of the same receiued notwithstanding the holy ghost out of the visible church Therfore it is not to speake properly the minister that giueth Baptisme but as the Scripture sayeth the heauenly father saueth vs by the washing of Regeneration through the renewing of the Holy Ghost 〈◊〉 5. 5 26 â— 1 16. Iesus Christ cleanseth sanctifieth his Church through the washing of water in his word And as the word of the Gospell when it is published according to the reuelation of God to saluation to all that beleeue though he that preacheth it do it of euill will without sincerity without zeale of enuy coÌ„tentioÌ„ as saith the Apostle that is though he haue no good intent So is it in the Sacrament which is a visible word so that the minister confer it according to the Lords institutioÌ„ his heresy or hypocrisy cannot hurt him that receiueth it For the question is not what is required in a pastour to approue his Ministery before God but what is requisit to the efficacy of the sacrameÌ„t according to the truth of god which the scripture teacheth vs caÌ„not be made voyde by the wickednes of men To which S Augustine agreeth saying that not only the good but also the wicked haue the ministery to Baptise but neither of theÌ„ both haue the power of baptism that Christ hath committed the ministery thereof to seruants but reserueth the power thereof to himselfe Thirdly J say that the scripture sheweth vs the correspondency of circumcision with Baptisme Ezech 1 23. Therfore as the circuÌ„cision giuen by the Apostataes of Samaria was availeable to the children that God acknowledged for his there being no need of reiterating it so as the Samaritans did reiterate that which had ben administred by the Iews as Epiphanius witnesseth So by like reason should not Baptism administred by a heretick be reiterate prouided that he keep the substaÌ„ce of the institution The Prophets indeed do exhort the Samaritanes to repeÌ„tance but neuer cal theÌ„ to a secoÌ„d circumcisioÌ„ though the first wer polluted by many abuses superstitioÌ„s The Bishop of Eureux Against these Arguments with greate apparaÌ„ce of scripture S. Augustine who 10 whole years haÌ„dled this question against the Donatists could not find any actuall and demonstratine proof in the scripture for the doctrine of the Church in this poynt and could oppose vnto them no other thing that would hold the place of an infallible proofe but the tradition authority of the Church Hoc saith he obseruandum est in rebus quod obseruat Ecclesia Dei Questio autem inter vos nos est vera sit Ecclesia Dei ergo à capite sumendum exordiuÌ„ cur schisma feceritis And in another place 〈◊〉 Proinde quamvis huius rei certè de Scripturis Canonicis non proferatur exemplum earundem tamen Scripturarum etiam in hac re a nobis tenetur veritas cum hoc facimus quod vniuersae iam placuit Ecclesiae quam ipsarum Scripturarum commendat autoritas vt quando S. Scriptura fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis eandem ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate S. Scriptura demonstrat And in another place Bap. â—on Sed illa consuetudo quam etiam tunc hominem sursum versum respicientes non videbant â posterioribus restitutam recte ab Apostolis tradita creditur Et talia multa sunt quae longum esset repetere Now saint Augustine declareth that the opinion of the Donatists was hereticall and the whole Church with him holdeth the Donatists for hereticks and our aduersaries themselues As also it must needs bee that either the Catholikes or the Donatists be hereticks For if Baptisme administred by hereticks bee not true Baptisme the Catholickes which receiue them without Baptizing theÌ„ doe violate this article One Fayth one Baptisme Also I beleeue one Baptisme for remission of sinnes If on the contrary it be true Baptisme the Donatists in rebaptizing them and reiterating and multiplying
Baptisme do sinne against the same article Whence I thus conclude The doctrine of the Donatists which was hereticall could not be confuted by the scripture alone and without the helpe of the Apostolicke tradition for to confute all heresies And by consequent it conteyneth not alone sufficiently all the principles of doctrine necessarye to diuinity and Christian Religion D Tillenus his answere Let vs see if Sainte Augustine in those tenne yeares that he handled his question against the Donatists could not finde any actuall proof in the scripture vpon this poynte as Du Perron saith lib. 1. â— coÌ„t 7. I thinke he promiseth very certayn proofes when he saith Ne videar humanis argumentis agere ex Euangelio profero certa documenta c Least I should seem to discourse with humaine reasons Lib. 2. de bap cont Don. c. 1 J will alleadge sure proofes out of the Gospell c. And in an other place Quid sit perniciosius vtrum non Baptizari an rebaptizari iudicare difficile est verumtamen recurrens ad illam stateram Dominicam vbi non ex humano sensu sed ex authoritate diuina rerum momenta pensantur inveniode vtraque re Domini sententiam Qui lotus est non habet necessitatem iterum lauandi c Jt is an hard thing to iudge whether is more dangerous not to be Baptised or to be baptized againe yet hauing recourse vnto that ballance of the Lord where not of humain sence but of diuine authority the vallews of things are weighed I finde of both matters the lords sentence He that is washed hath no neede to bee washed agayne c. And in another place hauing said that this custome came of the Tradition of the Apostles not meaning that it wanteth his proofes in Scripture he addeth Lic 5 de cont Don c. 2 Contra mandatum dei esse quod venientes ab hereticis si iam illi Baptismum christi acceperunt baptizantur quia scripturarum sanctarum testimoniis non solum ostenditur sed PLANE ostenditur That it is against the coÌ„mandement of God that such as come froÌ„ hereticks shold be baptised if they haue already receued ther the Baptism of Christ becaus by the testimonies of holy Scriptures it is not only shewed but plainly shewed These places others of this father do shew the audaciousnes of du Perron in his affirmations and his sincerity in his allegations As for the places he bringeth out of the same father to proue that he acknowledged the imperfectioÌ„ of the scriptu e coÌ„cerning this poynt he confouÌ„deth the question of act exaÌ„ple or practise with the questioÌ„ of law or ordinaÌ„ce S Augustine saith in this matter there caÌ„ be none exaÌ„ples of scripture alledged that is it caÌ„not be fouÌ„d there that it was so practised therfore he referrd the custoÌ„ or practis hereof to apostolike traditioÌ„ but that it ought so to be practised he affirmeth that not only the scripture sheweth it but that it sheweth it manyfestly Whence I conclude against the Bishops conclusioÌ„ on this second poynt The doctrine that euidently sheweth what is to be done in all matters coÌ„cerning fayth which confuteth the heresies that repugne the same is perfect but the scripture conteyneth this doctrine Therfore it is perfect The assumption is proued not only by the scripture but also by the testimonies of the fathers by whome he pretendeth to proue the doctrine of the church of Rome I wold earnestly desire of him cleare direct answere to that place of Augustine aboue alleadged out of his secoÌ„d book 9 chapter de doctrina Christiana for in the verball conference he woulde giue no answer theruÌ„to but on condition that I would protest to forsake the scripture and not to reason any more but by the authority of the fathers The bishop of Eureux The third heresy which we haue propounded among those that cannot by the scripture alone bee confuted is that of the Greekes touching the proceeding of the holy ghost which our aduersaries hold as well as we to proceed from the father and from the sonne a thing notwithstanding which the scripture doth no where expresse On the contrary it seemeth to restrayne the originall of the same proceeding from the father alone saying â—5 26 16. The spirit of truth which proceedeth from the father For when this sentence of Christ is obiected to the Greekes He shall take of mine They answerr that this worde of mine hath relation not to the Essence nor to the person but to the doctrine so that the intention of Christ in saying he shall take of mine that is of the same treasure of doctrine and wisdome of which the sonne hath taken And they alleadg for proofe of their exposition that which followeth in the Text which sayth And he shal declare it vnto you replying that the word declare hath relation not to the essence nor to the person but to the doctrine In like sort when these places are alleadged vnto them if any one haue not haue not the spirit of Christ 8.15 â— 5.6 he is none of his And agayne the spirit of Christ crying Abba Father they answer that concludeth not that the spirit proceedeth from Christ and that he is called the spirit of Christ not by proceeding but by possessioÌ„ for asmuch as Christ according to his humanity hath receiued the guift the ful whol possession of the same spirit according to the words of Esay The Spirit of the Lord is vpoÌ„ me becaus the Lord hath anoynted me And S. Peeter saith The lord hath anoynted him with the holy ghost and with power And that in this maner it is said that Elizeus receiued the spirit of Elias Not that the holy Ghost did proceed from Helias but because in a certayne measure he was possessed of Heliah When that is obiected vnto them which Christ saith vnto his Father That which is thine is myne They answer that may be expounded of the possession and outward domination ouer the creatures ouer whom the Father hath giuen all power to the sonne in heaven and in earth neither can the seÌ„ce of the words in that place be restrayned to the Essence no more then when the father of the prodigall Childe saitb to his eldest sonne the same words Omnia mea tua sunt But besides this though it should be vnderstood of the essence yet the argument concludeth nothing For if becaus the essence of the father is one the same it shoold therfore follow that the holy ghost proceedeth as well from the one as froÌ„ the other you must in like sorte conclude The essence of the father and the holy ghost is one and the same the sonn is therfore begotten of the holy ghost as well as of the Father And when it is added to those other arguments He will send the comforter They answer that he expoundeth himselfe shewing his meaning by this word Send namely that he will pray his