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A69024 A replie to a relation, of the conference between William Laude and Mr. Fisher the Jesuite. By a witnesse of Jesus Christ Burton, Henry, 1578-1648. 1640 (1640) STC 4154; ESTC S104828 423,261 458

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in his innocent nakednesse then with his devised Fig-leaves how applyed to the Prelaticall Church 103 104. Prelates Service sensuall and heathenish as done to an unknown God fully displayed 104. Prelates pompous Ceremonies like the Cardinals Sumpter 105. No necessity of Prelates Ceremonies sith both Superstitious and Superfluous saving that they are all the Substance of their Religion 106 107. True Reformation ought to have no Ceremonies at all to bind the Conscience 107. Prelates Ceremonies strengthen Superstition and Idolatry and destroy true piety 108. What is that Substance of Religion which Prelates Ceremonies doe fence 106 107. And what strength they adde to his Religion how it is weaknesse not to see 108. Prelates Ceremonies are beggerly Rudiments yea Aegyptian bonds and Babilonish Chaines 108. How by the Prelates Ceremonies so eagrely urged the Jesuites win ground 108 109. Romes Reconciliation hastened by hossing up wodden Altars and hurling down golden Ministers 109. The Jesuites hale in Popery through the Prelates broad Gates he hath layd open ibid. 21. How the Prelate hath layd open the wider-gates of his Catholicke Church by pulling down the walls and bulwarks of Christs true Church 109. The Prelates wider-Gates whither they lead 110. The Prelate hath nothing to doe with the true Faith nor Communion with the true Saints ibid. He perverteth the Scripture Jude 3. falsely applying the Saints Faith to his boundlesse Catholicke Church 110. What Truth the Prelate professeth and with what singlenesse of heart 110 111. And his notorious hypocrisie in deluding the King 111. The Prelate puts all his Book upon the King as published in obedience to his Majesties command ibid. What we may expect from the Prelate who resolves to dye in that Faith wherein he hath lived ibid. And so what hope he can have of Gods favour 112. THE CONTENTS OF THE MAINE POINTS AND PASSAGES IN THIS insuing Reply to the Relation it selfe 2. WHat is that Church whose judgement the Prelate would have the people to depend upon 113. And not to be too busie with Seripture but moderately in things obvious 114. How the Prelate yeelds the Jesuite this that the Church of Rome is a true Church on whose judgement people must depend 115. The Prelate a Subtile underminer of the Truth 116. 4. The papall Church holds no one point of Saving Truth ibid. 23. How the Prelate vants himselfe for the great Champion of the Church of England 117. 29. How the Prelate overthrows Christ while he makes things not Fundamentall in the Faith necessary to some mens Salvation but tells us not who those be 117 118. 31. How the Prelate can bind all men to peace by his Churches Declaration yea though it be not the Churches 118. The dangerous Consequences hereof 119. 32. The Prelate selfe-condemned for adding things contrary and detracting things necessary 120. 35. How against the Prelate things considered in the manner of Beeing onely are fundamentall in the Faith Instanced in sundry particulars 120 121. The many absurd consequences of Popish Reall-presence ibid. 37. How the Prelate makes things which are fundamentall in the Faith not to be so to all men 122. See 117.118 If the Prelate doe at all discerne what the true Faith is what use he makes of it 122. 39. How the Prelate falsifies Lyrinencis and is loth to English some of his words 123. If the Church of Rome be Lupanar Errorum a Stews of Errours 't were good that all should know her in plain English to be so to avoyd her though the Prelate be loth English men should know it ibid. How the Prelate applauds the Iesuite Stapleton in a grosse point of Popery whom Dr. Whitakers in the Chaire at Chambridge confuted 124. How therein the Prelate prefers Stapleton before Bellarmine who comes nearer to the Truth ibid. 40. How the Prelate is justly as an Enemy to Assurance of Salvation and so of true Saving Faith 124. 43. How the Prelate makes it whether for a penny Beliefe of Scripture or the Creed hath the Precedencie of a Prime Principle of Faith 125. 44. The Prelate allows some Traditions for Apostolick though not fundamentall in the Faith ibid. 45. The Prelates Faith of Christs Descent into hell which Article is by the Replyer discussed 126 to 129. 47.48 For default of examining the Articles of the Creed by Scripture the Prelate overthrows two Articles The Catholicke Church and the Communion of Saints 129. 51. Notwithstanding the Prelate we ought boldly and publickly to affirme The Truth against errour 132. 53. The Prelate submits the Faith of the Church of England to the judgement of the Fathers whether her Articles be according to Scripture How by those Fathers he is condemned 132 133. With what limitation the Church within the first 400 or 500. yeares may be sayd to have been at the best 133 134. How the Replyer declines the occasion of entring into a comparison between the truly Reformed Protestant Churches and that within the first 500. years after the Apostles 134. Conformity to Popish Rites a Pretence to bring Papists to Church as the Christians anciently intertained Heathen manners to draw them to be Christians 134. Augustine complained of Ceremonies then when if the Prelate say true the Church was at the best ibid. 62. The Prelates false professed Faith concerning the Catholicke Church in the Creed which he defines to be the Society of all Christians 135. 66. How the Prelate jumpes with Bellarmine for a word of God as well unwritten as written 135 136 137. Baptisme of Infants a Doctrine of Scripture not an unwritten Tradition We ought to repaire to Scripture in all doubts of Faith 137. 72 73. How the Prelates words not well examined may make us beleeve he is no Arminian but Orthodox in the Doctrine of Grace while he abuses the Scripture most palpably and grosly 138 139. 75 76. What the place and office of naturall Reason is in judgeing of Scripture against the Prelate magnifying naturall Reason to the vilifying of Scripture the blindnesse and vanity thereof in judging of Divine things and matters of Faith 140 141 142 143. Vnsanctified Reason how it judges the Scripture to be false 143. How the Prelate is put to his naturall Reasons pregnancy in matters of Faith 1●2 77. The Prelates extreme blindnesse or malice in saying The Scripture is strengthened with probable Arguments from the light of Nature and humane Testimony to convince men without which it is not so demonstratively evident of it selfe 144. At large confuted 14● to 149. A secret power in Scripture convincing a naturall man in the reading or hearing of it preached that it is the very word of God 148 149 150. See also A motion of the Replyer to the Prelate how he shall make tryall of the Scriptures powerfull sufficiencie to convince him that it is the word of God 149. A comparison of the Scripture with the Sun 151. Gods word preached and not Church-Tradition the ordinary prime motive and instrument of Faith Illustrated
that coming as neare as you can to the Papists in their Ceremonies you shall thereby bring them to the Church And surely this is the ready way either to bring Papists to your Church or you to their Church But I say the Church was so pestered with Rites and Ceremonies even in Augustins dayes that he complained that Christians were now in a worse case and condition under the Gospel then the Iewes were under the Law for though their yoake was grievous yet those Leviticall rites were of Gods owne ordaining and commandement but Christians saith he are brought under an intolerable yoake of Ceremonies of mens devising and imposing But now on the other side if I should enter into a Comparison between the Reformed Churches since Luther and those Primitive and ancient Churches as aforesaid I know it would be very tedious to your Lordship and extremely move your Patience especially if I should by many degrees preferre Calvin Bez● Zanchius Iunius and many hundred more Worthies both for learning and piety and chiefly for Soundnesse in Doctrine in the Reformed Churches beyond the Seaes yea and not a few on this side as Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper all Martyrs Iewel Whitakers Reynolds Perkins with infinite more and all within one Century before such as those Centuries aforesayd produced whose Names for Envy-sake I forbeare to mention Lastly you say you are content to submit to them in all those points of Doctrine If you be then for Shame cleare away those Cloudes which the said Declaration hath over-cast your Articles withall and cast away your Arminian Pelagian sense and take off your Suspension of them and let them speak one single truth as they formerly did and as all understood them according to the Scriptures L. p. 62. The Catholicke Church we beleeve in our Creed to be the Society of all Christians P. What you beleeve is one thing But we beleeve the Catholicke Church of Christ in the Creed to be the number and Society of all the Elect as the next Article expounds it The Communion of Saints but not that Company of all Christians which you name and meane Christians in name and profession tag and ragge pell mell good and bad Papists and Protestants of which the greatest number are no true living members of the true Catholick Church the mysticall body whereof Christ is the Head and which by Faith onely we apprehend for we beleeve the Holy Catholicke Church but cannot discerne with our bodily eyes as we doe a visible Object This is that Church which Christ loved for which he gave himselfe that he might sanctifie and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word to present it to himselfe a glorious Church not having spot or wrinckle or any such thing but that it should be holy and without blemish This we beleeve to be the Holy Catholicke Church and no other But thus indeed as you tell us before you make wider the Gates of the Catholicke Church then ever Christ made them or rather indeed you exclude the Catholicke Church of Gods Elect and set up a new Catholicke Church which may be seen but ought not to be beleeved L. p. 66. Agreed on for me also it shal be that Gods word may be written and unwritten P. Agreed on with whom Even with no lesse then Bellarmine For in the very next words you give us the reason why it is agreed upon for you that Gods word may be written and unwritten For Say you Cardinall Bellarmine tells us truely that it is not the writing or Printing that makes Scripture the word of God but it is the Prime unerring Essentiall Truth God himselfe uttering and revealing it to his Church that makes it Verbum Dei the word of God Doth Bellarmine say so And that truely And to what end I pray you doth the Cardinall say so Is it not to overthrow the Scripture for being the Sole word of God and to bring in another word of God which he calls verbum non Scriptum an unwritten word that is a word besides the Scriptures and equall to the Scriptures which is Romes unwritten Traditions And to this end and purpose Bellarmine using these words doth he tell you truely and is this the reason for which it is agreed on for you that Gods word may be written and unwritten Now though it be true that that which is spoken by God is his word though it be not written yet to us there is now no other word of God but that which is written that which is contained in the Scriptures And this word written is that alone which our Faith is grounded and settled upon According to that of Iohn Many other Signes truely did Iesus in the presence of his Disciples which are not written in this Booke But these things are written that ye might beleeve that Iesus is the Christ the Son of God and that beleeving ye might have life through his Name So as we are not to inquire further what Christ spake or did besides what we find written But your Lordship tells us before of certaine Traditions Apostolicall which it seems are that word of God which may be unwritten For you say If the Scripture be a Foundation to which we are to goe for witnesse if there ●e doubt about the Faith and in which we are to find the thing that is to be beleeved as necessary in the Faith we never did nor never will refuse any Tradition that is Vniversall and Apostolicke for the better exposition of the Scripture And to this place you referre that which you say pag. 58. As for Tradition I have said enough for that and as much as A. C. where 't is truely Apostolicall From which words first we observe that you make but an If of the Scripture as a Foundation If the Scripture be a Foundation and If in it we are to find the thing that is to be beleeved as If it were to be found in any thing else And Secondly how home you come to A C. the Jesuite in admitting Tradition Apostolicke to expound any doubt about the Faith and so with Bellarmine you are agreed for a word of God unwritten as well as written And you further adde here pag. 66. Speaking of the Scriptures their being written gave them no Authority at all in regard of themselves Written or unwritten the Word was the same But it was written that it might be the better preserved and continued with the more integrity to the use of the Church and the more faithfully in our memories So you Now 't is true that by the writing of the Scriptur●s Gods word contained therein is preserved continued in integrity and the more faithfully kept in our m●mories But is thi● all Nay the very writing of them though it added no Authority to Gods word in regard of it selfe yet as the Scriptures are to us Gods word is of the greater Authority because written For we acknowledge no other word of God as
larger Commentary let him but read the words over againe To the Eighth I answere It is not in it selfe pride not to obey Councels Difinitions and much lesse when a man knows them to be erronious Nor is it against any Iust and Godly Government but onely against that which is Papall Antichristian Tyrannicall And is it not high and Antichristian pride to impose Difinitions of Generall Councels of Prelates yea even when they are erronious and known apparently to be so yet to be as Gods own holy Commandements necessarily obeyed of all This is the highest and most Diabolicall Tyranny in the world thus to bring into bondage the faith soule and conscience of men to a necessary subjection to errour and falshood Yea thus not to obey you call it also unlawfull Unlawfull By what Law Or what Law either of God or of any lawfull Authority of Man or of Civil state is here broken Are mens lufts a Law Or are your Prelaticall Councels any true Generall Councels Generall they may be in respect of Prelates but Generall they are not in respect of the true Catholicke Church of Christ the Body whereof is not represented in your Generall Councels as is shewed before No nor is your Generall Councel Generall in respect of the Catholicke Church whereof you call your selfe the representative body For the lay-people are not admitted into your Councel nor any to represent them therfore it is not Generall therfore not to obey the difinitions of it is it unlawfull And suppose the Councel were lawfull are the Decrees therof to be obeyed when erronious To the Ninth That Christ intended not to leave an Infallible certainty in his Church to satisfie either contentious or curious or presumptuous spirits Here is one thing expressed and another implyed the thing expressed is negative Christ intended not c. the thing implyed is affirmative That Christ intended to leave an Infallible certainty in his Church And sutable hereunto are your precedent words There is there can be no necessity of an infallible certainty in the whole Catholicke Church and much lesse in a Generall Councel of things not absolutely necessary in themselves Which words imply this Affirmative That there is a necessity of an infallible certainty in the whole Catholicke Church of things absolutely necessary in themselves So as here also it is all one as if you had said thus Christ intended to leave an infallible certainty in hi● Church but not to satisfie either contentious or curious or presumptuous spirits Oney you doe still in such things of this na●ure prudently avoyd the plainer and least deceitfull way of expressing your selfe Now what Christ intended he certainly performs and makes good But to that your Imaginary Catholicke Church Prelaticall I deny that Christ ever intended to leave an infallible certainty For to such he never made any such promise And therfore you cannot say and say truly That Christ intended that For you are no part of his true Church as having no calling from Christ as before is proved And you your selfe confesse in many places of your Booke that the Authority of your Church is not Divinely infallible And for instance you make your present Church Authority in inducing beliefe of Scripture to be Gods word to have a prim● place in things absolutely necessary in themselves and yet you confesse that this Authority is not Divine and infallible So here is a Contradiction which I leave with you to reconcile Againe you tell us before that our Saviour Christ hath left in his Church besides his Law-books the Scripture visible Iudges to wit Arch-Bishops and Bishops And of such are made your Generall Councels Ergo of necessity Christ must intend to leave unto you an Infallible Certainty in judging Controversies of Faith For the Scripture you deny to be a compleat and sufficient Iudge in doubtfull cases and that in such cases the visible Iudges the Prelates in a Generall Councel are to determine Now if you have not certain infallibility of Judgement in what case is the Church Then it may be said as Bellarmine and other Jesui●es say Christ hath provided very ill for his Church if he had not left a visible Iudge and withall a certaine infallibility unto him to determine controversies of Faith This he speakes of the Pope and upon the very same ground that you doe for all Prelates in a Generall Councel And the ground is that you and they both deny the Scripture to be sole Iudge in Controversies of Faith Well then what say you Doe you confesse this that you have this Infallible certainty If you say you have it not as you do and yet you will be the true Church of Christ then you bely Christ both here saying He intended to leave it and before in saying He hath left you to be visible Iudges For had he intended to leave such an Infallibility certain to such a Church as you speake of and to leave such to be visible Iudges as are Archbishops and Bishops then certainly he would have given you such an Infallible certainty as wherby you should have been qualified and furnished to be sufficient and competent Iudges whose Judgement should be such in matters of Faith as men might secretly and safely rely and rest their Faith upon For otherwise if you have not this Infallibility but that somtimes at least and that in weighty Controversies you might erre in Judgement then men should have no more ground whereon to settle their Faith then the Dove in the Deluge had to set her foot upon you have so covered the Scripture as with a Deluge of Criminations as to be no sufficient Judge in Controversies of Faith And you confesse ibid That a Generall Councel which is an Universall Assembly of Prelates and Grand Bench of visible Iudges is not of infallible credit but that they may erre yea and possibly manifestly too against fundamentall verity as pag. 226. So as if the Scripture be though Infal●ible yet not living but a dead Iudge that cannot speake or pronounce the sentence And if the Prelates the visible living Iudges have not infallible certainty nor a Generall Councel infallible credit in their Decrees you leave the Church in a most perplexed case Whither shall she goe in all her doubts To what Judge or Oracle for resolution To the Scriptures That 's dead and cannot say Mum· To a Generall Councel of Prelates That 's of no certain credit their Judgement is not infallible yea not in fundamentall Truths Alas poore Church what wilt thou doe What wilt thou doe Why surely beleeve none of all these false Prophets no not all of them together when assembled in a Generall Councel for they may and will miserably deceive and seduce you if you trust to their Judgement Whither then To the Scripture But it is dead say they They are false Prophets and blind guides beleeve them not follow them not Search the Scriptures as Christ bids you To the Law and
be expected there Can or will the Lord Iesus Christ long suffer such things And what doth England now attempt The recovery of Scotland First ô England be thou thy selfe reconciled to God humble thy selfe for thy fearefull Apostacie revoke and call in all thy ungodly Edicts against Christ and his Word reforme all thy oppressions of Gods People and thine owne maintain not still open warre against the Spirituall Kingdome of Iesus Christ least he destroy thy temporall looke up to God as highly offended with thee and who hath for the present rent a whole Kingdome from thee who hast rent thy selfe from his Kingly Dominion over thee Be no longer rebellious against God stand not upon the confidence of thine own conceited Prudence and Power which unlesse thou hast God on thy side shal be but a snare unto thee and shall stand thee in no stead at thy need except thou dost repent and turn to God unfainedly and refraine thy violent courses and reform all My zeale hath carryed me thus farre for my God and for my King and for my Countrey and for all the People of God and the King in all his Kingdomes my dayly prayer being for Truth and Peace as the Prophet Saith Love the Truth and Peace Truth is both the Mother and Nurse of Peace But to proceed you say No externall action in the world can be uniforme without some Ceremony If you speak of Naturall Actictions nature it selfe doth teach a fit manner in doing of them If of Morall or Civill actions we commonly use such Ceremonies as either humane Lawes Customes or a mans owne reason hath brought in use But if you Speake of Religious actions such as are conversant about the worship of God That 's quite of another nature for point of Ceremony Onely thus farre it holds proportion with the other that as every naturall action hath for its manner of performance and carriage certaine Principles of Nature to guide a Man in the decent and orderly doing of it and as every Civil and Morall action hath for its manner of the decent carriage of it some Rule either intrinsecall within a man and in his own choyce and power or extrinsecall and without him according either to Custome or humane Law even so the externall manner of performing Gods worship hath for its Sole Principle and Rule the will of God himselfe whose service it is and over which he is the Sole Lord whose will for his whole service both internall and externall he hath clearely expressed in his word the holy Scripture And this is a principle which every man that seeth not but by the Spectacles of Natures Light assenteth unto as a firme and universall truth namely That every Master is so to be served as himselfe commandeth And if a Servant presume to serve his Master as himselfe listeth and not as his Master commandeth shall have small thanks for his labour How much more and beyond all comparison is God to be served of us not as we fancie but as himselfe hath expresly commanded in his word And this is a safe obedience wherein a man observing his Rule cannot erre Whereas obedience to Mans command is onely so farre good as the commandement it selfe is good and lawfull But Gods Word and Commandement being every way perfect and given us with a strict charge and under a most severe penalty even a Curse to those that shall either adde to it or detract from it who but Children of the curse will presume to invent what manner of externall service of God his own proud fancie liketh best Such service cannot be called the service of God as wherewith he is served and pleased but the service of Man wherein he pleaseth himselfe Yea when a man hath pleased his own fancie in the invention of this or that Ceremony in religious worship and not content herewith doth withall impose and injoyne it to be of necessity observed of all so as their Conscience is now by humane Law captivated thereunto this service of God becomes Hereticall For what is Heresie in the common use among Divines but an obstinate holding and maintaining of an errour in faith which mans pride hath made choyce of But not onely presumtuously to elect and obstinately and pertinaciously to maintain but to make a Law to enforce others to conform to any such errour in faith this is the highest degree of Heresie that can be And that the inventing holding and imposing of such Ceremonies in Gods worship is an errour in faith and so hereticall is cleare For it is a point and Article of Christian faith to bebeleeve that Christ is the onely Lord and King of his Church and therfore in the Creed we say And in Iesus Christ his onely Sonne our Lord. To whom then doth the power of ordaining Ceremonies in Gods holy service appertaine but to the King or Master of this service This power is Christs Prerogative in his Church This is Christs Throne wherein he sitteth raigneth and ruleth in and over the Soules and Consciences of his people as before is touched He is the onely Teletarkes or Master of ordaining Ceremonies in Gods house or family as the learned Budaeus interprets that word out of Dionisius Areopageta so as Teletarkía which signifies a Prerogative and Power in GOD incommunicable to ordaine Ceremonies in his worship is used for the Soveraigne Deity or Godhead and so for the Holy Trinity And Christ hath ever from the beginning reserved this power intire and peculiar to himselfe even as his glory not imparting it to any earthly power not to his Church not to his Prophets and Apostles not to the Kings of Israel under the Law nor to the Fathers before the Law For before the giveing of the Law in Mount Sina GOD taught his Church the use of Sacrifices and Altars and other Rites with the difference of Meates cleane and uncleane At the giving of the Law GOD shewed Moses a pattern for the Tabernacle and all things thereunto belonging with a Charge to doe all things according to the Pattern which he had seen Not the least Ceremony no not a pin about the Tabernacle was left in Moses power or choyce to make of his own head So afterward when the Temple was to be built David received the pattern thereof and of all things appertaining to the whole service thereof from God in writing which David delivering to his Son Salomon appointed of God to build the Temple Said All this the Lord made me understand in writing by his hand upon me even all the worke of this Pattern even the Pattern of all that he had by the Spirit So as though David was a King and a Prophet and that of singular eminency a man according to Gods own heart and aboundantly indued with the holy Spirit of God and the Sweet Psalmist of Israel and though King Salomon was indued with admirable and incomparable wisedome yet the Lord