some to be obstinate or dissemblers he may know who is to be bound and who to be loosed which he cānot do by hearing the diuersity of their sins For if their sins be as red as scarlet if they be truelie penitent they are to be loosed and if they seeme neuer so small if they be not repentant nor humblie contrite in heart for them they are to be bound While you seeke to make a difference betweene the authoritie of the minister in the Ghospell of pardoning sinnes more properlie then the priest clensed the Leper you declare that you are not content with the sentence of Saint Ierome nor of so many of the auncient fathers as made the case all alike And where you saie it was not said vnto them as vnto ours whomsoeuer you punish with Leprosie or make vncleane he shal haue a Leprosie you speake beside the booke For this authoritie was giuen to them that they should make cleane or vncleane and whomesoeuer they made cleane he was admitted into the congregation and whomesoeuer they made vncleane he was so accounted of all men Yet properlie they made neither cleane nor vncleane but declared them so to be according to the institution which they had of Gods law in exercise whereof although they erred and so the partie might be receiued or refused according to their error yet was he neither cleane nor vncleane in deede by their sentence but by the work of God and so be sinners The blasphemie that you ascribe to Saint Hilarie I haue confuted before Your distinction of prius natura and quoad nos is foolish sophistrie in this case For except God first worke in our hearts by his holie spirit faith of forgiuenes we can haue but small comfort in the priests absolution That God doth alwaies wörke at the instant in which Baptisme is ministred it is false if Saint Augustines doctrine be true who reacheth that Baptisme may be receiued out of the Church but cannot haue effect but in the Church that is if the partie came from heresie and submit him selfe to the Catholike Church ALLEN And so it is in penance where God the principall and the priest the secondarie or seruisable cause ioyntlie forgiue together For so the words of institution of this sacrament doe moste plainlie conuince whose sinnes you shall forgiue they beforgiuen he speaketh in the present tence as though he would saie as you forgiue them or reteine them ipso facto I forgiue them or reteine them And therefore sauing the honour of the Master of the sentences he had not good consideration when he did holde as some other did after him that first mans sinnes be remitted by God in his contrition and purpose to come to the sacrament and afterwarde the same remission to be declared by the priests and as it were confirmed by his approbation in confession being therein partlie deceiued by the saying of Saint Hierome before alledged whome he tooke perchaunce to haue compared in all respects the office of the olde Priest for the viewe of the vncleane and ours of the new law in the iudgement vsed vpon mans sinnes and partlie as I take it by a sentence of Saint Augustine which compared together the receiuing of Lazarus by Christ and the Disciples loosing his bandes to Christes pardoning of sinnes first and then the priests loosing the same afterward in the face of the Church This to be shorte is a peece of Saint Augustines sentence Quid ergo facit Ecclesia cui dictum est Quae solueritis in terra erunt soluta nisi quod ait Dominus soluite illum sinite abire What doth the Church then to whome it was said vhatsoeuer you loose it shall be loosed Marie she doth that which our Lorde saied loose him and let him goe Wherein Saint Augustine meaneth nothing els but that Christ is the principall agent and that he properlie doth giue life to the soull the Priest for all that beeing his seruant and minister therein and therefore by nature is a latter agent in the same worke which els as I haue prooued ioynilie perteineth to them both for that the effect of a Sacrament commeth not to any man till it be receiued except it be in certaine cases of necessitie where the parties can not obteine the externall rse of the appointed element though they earnestlie desire the same But how the olde Priests office touching the Lepers of the law representeth our sacrament of the priests ministerie in the new Testament and how farre ours which is the truth excelleth that which was but a shadow of ours Saint Chrysostome doth excellentlic declare and therewith fullie may put out of doubt all men that our Priests properlie worke remission of sinnes as ministers in the same diuine action and not as declarers or approouers of that effect which before was wrought by God himselfe Thus he saith Corporis lepram purgare seu veriùs dicam haud purgare quidem sed purgatos probare Iudaeorum sacerdotibus solis liccbat at verò nostris sacerdotibus non corporis lepram verùm animae sordes non dico purgatas probare sed purgare prorsus concessum cst Quamobrem mco iudicio qui istos despiciunt contemnuntque multò sceleratiores ac maiori supplicio digni fuerint quà m fuerit Dathan vnà cum suis omnibus That is to saie To purge the Leprosie of the bodie or ells to saie as it was in deede not to purge but to discerne who were cleane was graunted onelie to the Priests of the olde law but it is fullie graunted to our Priests not to purge the bodilie lcprosie nor to snew who are cleaner purged but vtterlie to purge the verie filth of mans soull Therefore by my iudgement whosoeuer doe contemne or despise them they are much more worthie punishment then the disobedient Dathan with all his companie Thus saith this holie Father with many wordes moe which were worthie all consideration and rememberance in this case if the matter were not so abundant that it may not suffer ouer long abode in one place lest iniurie be done to other braunches of the cause no lesse necessarie to be knowne for full vpholding the truth thereof FVLKE Your argument taken of Christs speaking in the present tense is vaine and of no force to prooue that the forgiuenes or reteining of God and man concurre in one instant For in the latter sentence of reteining the verbe is of the preterperfect tense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but in the same sense that the verbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the former sentence which is of the present tence proouing Gods forgiuenes to goe before mans declaration thereof The Master of the sentences is litle beholding to you that doc so flatlie condemne him of error whereas he did write nothing in this point which was not commonly receiued in the Church of Rome in his time and long after For among the articles in quibus Magister non tenetur there is
but the promise of truth which indeed if it be shewed so manifest that it cannot come in doubt it is to be preferred before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church But if it be onelie promised and not exhibited no man shall mooue me from that faith which bindeth my minde with so manie and great knottes vnto Christian religion Let vs see therfore what Maniche doth teach me c. These wordes declare that setting aside the wisdom of the Church grounded vpō the scriptures which the heretikes would not acknowledge there were manie other things that might iustlie holde him in the Catholike Church among which the name of Catholikes was but one and serued onelie at that time when the Catholike religion was moste commonlie imbraced therefore he denied not that the name of Catholike onelie was sufficient to teach a man to knowe the Church and the trueth by it but acknowledgeth that all these motiues of vniuersalitie consent miracles succession name of Catholike must giue place to the trueth when it is plainlie shewed out of the canonicall scriptures as in the chapter following he vrgeth them to shew out of the gospells of Christ wher it is writen that Manicheus was an Apostle of Christ as his sect affirmed and his epistle pretended As for the reason you alledge that vnlearned men are not able to stand with heretikes in disputation which wil challenge the Church to themselues is of no force for the vnlearned man ought to know the Church by the true notes thereof conteined in the scriptures which is sufficient for to satisfie his conscience although he can not cunninglie auoide all the Sophisticall arguments that the aduersarie bringeth whereas theonelie name of Catholikes can breede no true faith or quietnes of minde which is not obteined by the peoples iudgement but by authoritie of the worde of God And seing the people are commonlie deceiued in many matters of difficultie and moste of all in misnaming of things what assurance shall the vnlearned haue that they be not deceiued in this so weightie a matter and wherein their speach may so easilie be abused But howsoeuer it was the common calling of the people brought you to know Catholikes Catholikes to know the Church and the creede taught you to beleeue the Church rules in Popes pardons then in other articles Thus is your faith builded altogether vpon humane presumptions the ladder whereof is this you beleeue Popes pardons because the Church of Rome alloweth them you beleeue the Church of Rome because it is the Catholike Church you beleeue that it is the Catholike Church because the people commonlie call it so But of Christian faith Saint Paull describeth another ladder faith commeth by hearing hearing by the worde of God preached by ministers sent of God so that against the authoritie of god who giueth both his worde and preachers and by them true faith you haue the generall and common calling of men which giue authority to that companie to be the Church which is surnamed Catholike which company so called may cause you to beleeue what they list and this indeed is the ground of al your heresies if you had gone one step lower that the Deuill inspireth ignorant and wicked men to call his fowle blouse the Romish synagogue by the name of the beautifull spouse of Christ his Catholike Church ALLEN The second cause that mooued me to reuerence the power of pardoning in the high Bishup and to like his Indulgences was the verie persons of them which first reprooued the same In whome because I saw the worlde to note and wonder at other manie moste blasphemous and inexcusable heresies I verilie deemed though I was then for my age almoste ignorant of all thinges that this opinion and impugnation of Pardons could neither be of God nor of good motion that first began in them begate such a number of most wicked cōtentio is opinions as streight vpon the controlling of the Churches power herein did ensue not onelie against Christs officers in earth but against his Saints in heauen against himselfe in the blessed Sacrament This extreame intollerable issue mee thought verilie could haue no holie entraunce and therfore with the other named cause stayed me in the Churches faith euen then when I had no feeling nor sense in the meaning of these matters FVLKE You were a wise young man in those daies when being almost ignorant of all things as you confesse you would follow the iudgement of the worlde in condemning the persons of them that reprooued pardons and were not able to iudge whether they were iustlie condemned of other blasphemous inexcusable heresies Nay at this presēt time as great a cleark as you are taken to be among your friends you are not able to conuince thē of such blasphemous inexcusable heresies as you prate of And yet if you had bin thō as able iustly to haue reproued thē by the scriptures of such monsters as the world did wonder at in them yet you staied vpō a weake staffe except this be a good atgumēt with you heretiks hold manifest false opinions therefore they holde no true opinions Much more wiselie and soundlie you should haue sought the true Church as Saint Augustine teacheth out of the scriptures and thereby iudged of the worldes noting and wondring which because it consisteth moste of wicked men doth commonlie condemne Christ and his Gospell Out of the same scripture you should haue learned who were Christes officers and whoe the limmes of Antichrist what honour is due vnto the saints in heauen and what manner presense there is of Christ vpon earth But as your faith was thē grounded vpō simple sophistrie in supposing that which no wise man will graunt so is it not now much differing from the same although you haue learned with more craft to peruert a few scriptures and to wrest the sayinges of some dctors for a florish hauing no more substance of true faith which is builded vpon the word of God then you had before For if your shameles principle be denyed that you are the Church of Christ then you come back to these beggerlie motyues as in your articles and Bristowes motyues is manifest being not able either to finde the notes of the true Church in the synagogue of Rome nor to iustify the doctrine of the Church of Rome to be builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles when triall is to be made by their writings ALLEN But afterwad reading the historie of the pitifull fal of our time and there considering the sinister intent and occasion of the first improofe of Pardons and all the strange endeuours of Luther whose name is cursed to all good men who first in all mans memorie sauing one Wicleffe who was condemned in Constance Councell for the same was so bolde onelie vpon contention and couetousnes to condemne that which himselfe in Conscience knew to be true and lawfull I could not
same that Christ said it to be we beleeue the same The whol discourse of the Doctor in that place is contrarie to the error of the carnall presence where he sheweth that the sacrament is the Image of Christ as man is the Image of God though he be not equall with God as the sacrament is not equall with Christ but an insensible thing yet neuerthelesse by grace is called and beleeued to be that which Christ said of it This saying of Epiphanius do we allow and vse as an inumcible argument against transsubstantiation and the carnal manner of presence as was well tried when in the conference at the tower it was opposed vnto your client Campian who had nothing but vaine wordes to anoide it being a place which he neither vnderstood in the authors tongue nor after it was expounded in English could tell the argument or occasion of it To the places cited out of Chrysostome I answered that albeit they be sometimes hyperbolicall yet as he vnderstood them and doth manie times expounde him selfe we confesse them to be true and yet no carnall presence prooued by them as In Mat. H. 83. which our answerer citeth in these wordes Sed quoniam ille dixit hoc est corpus meum credamus etiamsi sensui absurdem esse videatur Because Christ hath said this is my bodie we must beleeue it although it seeme absurd to our sense The saying is good and catholike but yet it is not altogether Chrysostomes neither in this homilie nor in the Hom 60. ad Pop. Antioch which also he quotech for it The wordes of Chrisostome in Math. Ho. 83. of the translation of Trapezuntius be these Quoniam ergo ille dixit hoc est corpus meum nulla teneamur ambiguitate sed credamus oculis intellectus id perspiciamus Because then he hath said this is my bodie let vs not be holden with anie doubtfulnesse but let vs beleeue and behold it with the eies of vnderslanding And ad pop Antioch Ho. 60. of Germanus Brixius translation these are his wordes Quoniam igitur verbum dicit hoc est corpus meum pareamus credamus intellectualibus ipsum occulis intueamur But because the word saieth this is my bodie let vs borh obey and beleeue and beholde him with the eies of vnderstanding A third place he cyteth out of this father in I. Cor. ho. 24. in these wordes Hoc idem corpus cruentatum lancea vulneratum quod in caelum extulit This is the verie same bodie whose blood was shed and which was wounded with the speare and which he carried vp with him We graunt as much that we receiue in the sacrament the verie same bodie of Christ that was crucified wounded dead and caried into heauen yet not comming downe to vs but we as Chrisostome saith in the same homelie by faith made Egles and ascending vp into heauen where Christ is yet the wordes be not altogether as our answerer citeth them for immediatelie after the word vulneratum followeth Fontes sanguinis aquae 〈◊〉 so orbi salutares scaturiuit Flowed forth 〈◊〉 of bloode and water healthful to all the world But he were to be pardoned that hath nothing of his owne reading but is faine to cite all out of other mens notes if he were not such a proude and malepert censurer of other men To proceede after these quotations and citations of the auncient Doctors he commeth to his aduersaries to shew how contrarie they are in vnderstanding of this text of scripture This is my bodie they haue found out saith he a new exposition affirming that it must be construed this is onelie the signe of my bodie for which they haue neither scripture nor auncient father for warrant or example But which of your aduersaries good sir giueth this construction This is the signe of my bodie some do interpret it and for that you maie haue warrant of auncient Doctors more then euer you read if you durst denie it but this is onelie the signe by which you meane a bare signe to exclude all true feeding vpon Christ in his supper none of the Protestantes your aduersaries did euer affirme What Libertines Anabaptists and other fantasticall heades haue imagined we haue nothing to doe with it no more then with the eight seuerall expositions numbred by Luther or those 84. gathered by Claudius de Xanctes from all which we disclaime and from all other sauing from one which is the true interpretation And yet it is certaine that Luther an enemie to this trueth streineth much Claudius ten times more the words of the Christian Protestants to so great numbers of interpretations Among whome if eighty more do vtter the same sense in diuers wordes you will make no lesse then 80. interpretations But because M. Chark acknowledgeth Luther to be illuminated singularlie by the holie ghost and he is compared to Elias by the common phrase of all Protestants our answerer taketh paines to repeat diuers bitter sayings of his against our interpretation of those wordes of Christ as which he had reuealed to him by his holie spirite A wife matter as though Luther being singularly illuminated by the holie ghost is made a Pope by M Charke that he can not erre in anie thing or being compared by some Protestants and in some respects for it is a lowd lie that he is compared by al Protestantes to Elias may not be deceiued in anie point as Eliashim-selfe was But doth our answerer trow you cite more truelie out of Luther then he did of late out of the olde writers that we might thinke perhaps he hath read the latter more diligentlie although he hath beene litle conuersant in the former I will giue you a taste by one or two places and first that which he citeth out of Luthers epistle ad Argentinenses wherein he clippeth and geldeth out diuerse wholl sentences at his pleasure or rather as his note booke did lead him So that it is plaine he hath read no more in Luther then in the auncient Doctors The wordes are these Hoc diffiteri nec possum nec volo c. This can I not nor will denie but if Carlostadius or anie manels could for fiue yeares past haue persuaded me that there had bene nothing in the sacrament but bread and wine he should haue bound me to him by a great good turne For I haue taken great care and anxietie in discussing this matter and haue endeuoured with all my power and synowes siretched out to ridde my selfe of the same Seeing I did well perceiue I might verie greatlie and especiallie hurt the papacie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Moreouer I had two men which did write vnto me of this matter more rightlie and sharplie then Carolostadius nor sowresting the wordes after the capacitis of their owne 〈◊〉 But I do se my selfe captine no waie being left to escape For the text of the Gospell is too plaine and strong and such as cannot easilie be ouerthrowen
in stead of which word properlie you craftelie conueigh in the worde truelie so your wholl syllogisme is a paralogisme and may lawfully be denied Notwithstanding your conclusion as it is we do graunt that the Apostles do rightlie and truely remit sinnes by their ministery in the holie ghost but as it should be inferred vpon your premises we denie it which cannot be gathered but vpon a false Maior Whatsoeuer the holie ghost may doe properlie in remitting sinnes the Apostles may do by ministerie as properlie As for the comfort of mans life taken away by denying sinnes to be properlie forgiuen by Priestes is a fond cauill and meere slaunder For we acknowledge it a singular comfort of mans life that God hath appointed men by their ministerie to assure vs of his fauour and reconciliation in the remission of oursins And we beleeue with Saint Augustine that sinnes are forgiuen in Gods Church vpon earth acknowledgeing the bountefullnes of God in so mightie a worke anathematizing and detesting the Nouatians and all other heretikes that obstinatelie and willfullie mainteine the contrarie The power to remit sinnes is further prooued to be giuen to the Apostles by these wordes of Christ Whose sinnes you do forgiue c. by the Doctors exposition of the same and by conference of other wordes of scripture of the like sense THE FOVRTH CHAP. ALLEN HOw the priestes of Christes Church haue defended this right and calling for remission of sinnes as wel by the commission that Christ first receiued of his father and afterward bestowed vpon them as by the assured receiuing of the spi rit of god from Christes blessed breath to the same and purpose I haue hitherto declared at large Now the third part of the place before alledged out of S. Iohns gospel concerneth the words of Christes promis and warrant made vnto his Apostles out of which wordes distinctly vttered we must see what force may be further added vnto our Catholike assertion for the pristes autho rity to remit and retaine sinnes And surely if none of the former wordes of commission nor any other mean or mention had beene made of the holy ghostes assistaunce herein these onlie woordes vpon the credit that faithful men owe to Christ had bin sufficient to haue assured the world of the authoritie of priesthood of the wholl cause that now is called in controuersie For what can be said either of god or man more properlie or more playnlie then this whose sinnes you shal forgiue they be forgiuen whose sinnes you shal retaine they be retained I must needes heree complaine of these vnfaithful and vnhappie times that in the continuall lothsome bragges of the scripture and Gods word in perpetuall tossing and tumbling of the booke of the Bible in endlesse contention and disputation of most high mysteries in them contained haue wholie conuerted the cleerest and onely vndoubted meaning of such places specially as moste touch the verie life and saluation of all mankinde and which be of all other thinges in termes of scripture most open and euident sull foolishlie and vnlearnedlie haue both the simple sort handled Gods word as in such grosse ignorance of al thinges they needes must and their new procured Masters also in not much more knowledge and farre passing pride can not otherwise do but whilest they plaie them selues in things of smaler importance they are to be laughed at rather then lamented but if the deuil driue them farther as he lightlie doth wherere he se quietlie possesseth and cause them to dallie and delude the places of scripture that principally concerne the state and saluation of vs al then we must with al force resist lest we leese the fruite and good of our Christianitie What can be of higher importance in the world or touch our soules and saluation so neere as the holie sacraments of Christ Church by which grace and mercy through gods appointment be procured yet these blessed fountains especiallie euen these waters springing euerlastingly to our life and comfort haue these men most infected FVLKE You fare as though we denied all power of remitting or retaining of sinnes whereas we do moste gladlie imbrace all such power as Christ hath giuen vs which we must so take as it be not dishonourable to the godhead that man should exercise that which is proper to God him-selfe The power therefore we graunt but what manner of power this is we must inquire whether an absolute power for priests at their pleasure as you speake afterward in this Chapter to forgiue sinnes properlie or a power to declare the same to be forgiuen according to the pleasure of God to them that repent and beleeue the Gospell and also whether this power is to be exercised by preaching the Ghospel or by auricular confession You spend manie words therefore in vaine to prooue the power and authoritie whereof we stand in no controuersie with you but what manner of power this is and by what meanes it is to be exercised As for the lothsome bragges of the scripture and Gods word in perpetuall tossing and tumbling of the bookes of the Bible doe argue that you complaine of sauoreth not of the spirit of Christ which willeth the scriptures to be searched as those which beare witnes of him To glory in the truth of Gods word contained in his holie scriptures is no vaine bragging but such as Christians ought moste of all to delight in The rest of your railing I passe ouer as vnworthie anie answere when whatsoeuer you prate in generall shal be founde false in speciall when you come to prooue the particulers ALLEN In the institution of Sacraments Christs wordes were euer plaine without colour or figure as wordes that worke with singular efficacie grace and vertue and therewith giue to the ministers iust authoritie for the execution of Christes meaning which could not be done in figuratiue speaches and parables without infinit error Did God speake parables when he instituted the solemnitie of so manie sacrifices in the olde lawe when he signified vnto Moses and Aaron euerie seuerall sorte of beast or creature with their sexe kind all the ceremonie thereunto belonging Did he speake parables when the sacrament of the lambe was to be instituted Did he speake by figure to Abraham when he commaunded him to circumcise the male of euerie of his people Did he speake by figure when he instituted the Sabbath Did he to be breefe euer in the olde lawe speake one thing and meane another when anie externall worke by the charge of his worde was to be practized for euer amongest the people In common speach in prophecying in preaching in similitudes in examples vttered for the declaration of manie thinges and for grace and varietie of talke to stirre vp mans industrie in searching the secretes of the trueth there figures of all sortes be vsed but where by externall wordes and actions force of inward grace must be procured or perpetuall vsages in the Church are
such a sacrament and of auriculer confession as necessarie ALLEN Moreouer the sacrifices of the olde law were in manie cases done by the Priestes as well for priuate sinnes as open which could not be without the confession of the penitent ergo much more the secrets of our soules be subiect to our Priestes to whom Christ hath giuen all iudgement Yet all this notwithstanding there be some that keepe them-selues by vaine excuse of sinne from the verie principall point and pith of this sacrament which is the particuler examination of a mans sinnes committed by thought word or worke and will yet draw back and holde that a generall confession is enough with tearmes vniuersall acknowledgeing a mans selfe to haue sinnes by minde word and deede though he expresse not the seuerall pointes thereof But this opinion is confuted both by all the fore said reasons and other as a moste absord and wilfull maintenance of sinne For by this rule he that killed and murdered thousandes should confesse no more after his wicked actes then before nor no more then the innocentest man that liueth Dauids weeping and confession should haue beene one after his double deadlie sinne committed as before in his innocencie Peter should not haue more bitterlie went after his for saking of his master then before Neither should our confession then pertaine more to our selues then to other who by like generall clauses maie truelie make the like and the same confession as it is now in the Church of England But the holie King Dauid confessed not sinnes common to him selfe and other men but my sinne my wickednes my impietie saith he and this in confessing to God that know alreadie his sinnes How much more now where Gods iudgement is exercised by man that can not discerne our faultes him selfe must we confesse our sinnes that he maie rightlie iudge thereof FVLKE The sacrifices of the olde law did in deede containe a confession of sinne but no particuler declaration vnto the priest of anie sin committed in secret therfore your conclusion is naught as also it is blasphemous that you saie therein that Christ hath giuen to your priestes all iudgement But confession by a generall clause you do not allow to be sufficient to saluation not answerable to Christes meaning I praie you sit at the length bring forth those words of Christ by which you know his meaning so well that you dare deny saluation to them that make not a particuler confession to a priest By this rule you saie the murtherer of thousands should confesse no more then the innocentest man aliue verily to a priest he is no more bound to confesse his murthers then an innocent man his lester trespasses But as anie mans sinnes are more heinous and greeuous so ought he to bewaile and lament the same more earnestlie before God So did Dauid and Peter after their seuerall and greeuous falles not to enforme God which knew their sinnes more exactlie then they could make confession of them but to stirre vp themselues to more earnest hartie sorrow and repentance for them That Gods iudgement is so exercised by priests as you meane you must first prooue after vse for an argument or els you begge and gette nothing ALLEN Penance must be donne for euery of our sinnes So Peter prescribed Simon the sorcerer when he attempted to haue bought the gift of Goddes Spirit that he should doo penance for that especiall greeuous crime Poenitentiam age saith he ab hac nequitia tua Doe penance for this thy wicked attempte if perchaunce God will forgiue thee this abhominable intent The man was baptised not long before and then no such Penance was prescribed for his most greeuous and blasphemous practises of Nicromancie and witchcrafte long exercised before Wherein this naughty pack Simon Magus is a thousand partes more religious then our newe maisters For he desired the Apostles to pray to God for him that this sinne might be forgiuen him where these care no more for the priest or Apostle concerning their sinnes then they doo for dogges Againe Saint Paule did not onely confesse his sinnes by a generall clause but acknowledged his owne sinnes wherein he in his owne person had offended he confessed he was of al sinners the greatest that he had obteined commission to attache them that beleeued in Christes name and so forth Such as were faithfull also at Ephesus as we reade in the 19. of the Actes came to the Apostles Et confitebantur actus suos and confessed their actes and misdees In so much that certaine which had followed vnlaufull artes as Magike Nicromancie and such like curiositie confessed their faultes and burned their bookes before all the people FVLKE We must be poenitent for al and euerie of oursinnes that we know or can call to minde but that penance must be enioyned by a Priest as you meane for euerie sinne let vs see how you can prooue it S. Peter prescribed Simon Magus that he should do penance for that greeuous crime Therfore penance must be done for eucrie of our sinnes Although the antecedent were true yet the consequence is naught penance must be done for one open and hainous sinne ergo for all secret sinnes But I denie that anie such penance as you meane was enioyned vnto him by Peter But that he exhorted Simon to repentance if he looked to haue any forgiuenes of his sinnes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 repent saith he or change thy minde from this thy wickednes and not as you translate for this thy wickednes as though repentance were a satisfaction for his sin Moreouer I answere you vse not to enioyne penance before men haue confessed their sinne But when Peter exhorted Simon to repent he had not yet confessed his sinne but was a couetous hipocrite 〈◊〉 you dissent from your pupills of Rhemis which denie that doing of pennance was prescribed to men before they were baptized For they translate agite panitentiam as well before baptisme as after to do penance satisfaction for sinne Where you saie that your new maislers care no more for the Priest or Apostle concerning their sinnes then they do for degges it is a saucic Censure of a dogged Papist For they whome you scorne do reuerence all the ministers of God as well in the power they haue to remitte sinnes as also in al other partes of their office An other argument on haue of Saint Pauls example who confessed his owne sinnes and namelie the greatest of persecuting the Church of Christ. Yea but not his secret sinnes to a priest but his open faultes before his conuersion and Baptisme And so likewise they that beleeued Act. 19 made open confession of some of their deuilish practizes committed before they were Christians and in detestation of their former wickednes and signe of true repentance burned their bookes to a great value ALLEN If the priestes had nothing elles to doe with oursins but as they had in the olde lawe to doo with
the least they disdaine to submit themselues to the Priests whom God hath giuen power vnto to discearne the cleane from the vncleane But I would thou shouldest not beguile thy selfe by false perswasion or some respect of shame that thou hast to confesse vnto the priest who is Gods Vicare For I tell thee thou must vnder his iudgement whome God doth not disdaine to constitute his Vicegerent But this Doctour made a wholl worke of penance and the waies of recouerie of Christian mans fall after Baptisme by the Priests iudgement and sacrament of Confession Of the which bookes if any man list doubt yet let him be assured that they be both auncient Catholike learned and agreeable to the doctrine of Saint Augustines daies whosoeuer made them And our cause is so much more holpen because not onelie Saint Austine who is plaine in these matters vpon Saint Matthwes Gospel and els where as it is declared alreadie but also other of great antiquitie confirme the same and plainly confound the pride of our daies in which men are not somuch ashamed of their sinnes as they be disdainefull to confesse their sinnes vnto a poore priest though he iustlie accupie the verie iudgement seat of God FVLKE You doe wiselie to deuorce vpon his meaning when you haue not his wordes to warrant you For so you maie blinde the eyes of the ignorant to beleeue that you haue som farther intelligence of meaning then can appeare euen by the words that you haue cited out of him For the 〈◊〉 of condemnation is not by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against them which are ashamed to confes their faults to men if they amend them before god but against them that flie the knowledge and iudgement of men and yet doe not repent before God And therefore he saith si ea confiteri aut emendare noluerirt if they will not confesse them or amende them and againe si in maio suo permanserint if they shall continue in their euill But if they will amend their faultes and not continue in sinne he dare promise them forgiuenes and life euerlasting as is declared in the last section But now you charge vs with Saint Agustines authoritie and yet you will not abide by it that it is Saint Augastines authoritie wherein you deale more sincerely then Papists are commonlie wont to doe to acknowledge that these bookes you vouch are not admitted for Saint Augustines authoritie Among so many great and large volumes as are certeinlie knowne and generally receiued to be of Saint Augustines writing where you can finde nothing but these bookes of vncerteine credit to mainteine the necessitie of auricular confession the indifferent reader may well gather how litle ground your purpose cā finde in that age of S. Austins For that you haue declared alreadie out of S. Austine vpon S. Matthewes Gospel ells where how plaine it is for these matters let the reader iudge by that I haue answered in those seuerall places But as touching the bookes de visitatione 〈◊〉 being one of the two treatises that you cite as it is certaine that it was not of S. Austines writing so hath it no similitude with the doctrine of his time or with the stile of anie learned or auncient father The Censure of Erasmus vpon these bookes is this Sermo locutulei nec docti nec diserti Quid habuerunt vel frontis vel mentis qui talia scripta nobis obtruserunt nomine Augustini c. These bookes are the speach of a pratler neither learned nor eloquent What shame or wit had they which haue thrust vpon vs such writings vnder the name of S. Augustine Yet you dare assure vs that they be auncient Catholike learned and agreeable to the doctrine of Saint Augustines daies But the reasons of your assurance you spare to shewe giuing vs nothing but your bare word which is sufficient among vnlearned and sottish Papists whose ignorance you knewe would accept whatsoeuer you brought and therefore were carles what all the learned of the contrarie parte might iudge of your impudent and shameles assertions Concerning the other whole worke of penance which you affirme that this doctour made although it were graunted that Saint Augustine was author of that worke of repentance as it shall be easilie graunted that if not Saint Augustine yet some other auncient and learned father was the writer of them neuertheles there is nothing in them by which you are able to prooue the matter in controuersie namelie the necessitie of confession of all mortall sinnes to a Priest And therefore albeit you set a good face vpon the matter you haue neuer a sentence to set downe out of those bookes that is able to giue but onely a glosse or colour to your Popish confession For if you had you woulde not haue beene silent in setting forth the sentence of another beside Saint Augustine as you saie and as I thinke of great antiquitie who against them that be impenitent and neither acknowledge their sinnes vnfainedlie before God nor studie to amend and reforme their wicked life writeth vehementlie shewing three kindes of repentance one before baptisme in them that are of yeares another after baptisme which is dailie sorowing for our infirmities in saying the Lordes prayer the third of heinous and notorious sinnes offensiue to the Church of them that are excommunicated and are not to be receiued without open confession and signes of humilitie But the necessitie of confessing all thinges to a poore priest iustlie occupying the verie iudgement seate of God there is no word in either of those two bookes De medicina poenitentiae de vtilitate poenitentiae ALLEN And Saint Ambrose these mens auncient somewhat did knowe this practise so well and allow it that he did sit in his owne person on confession as Paulinus doth recorde whose behauiour in that diuine office that all Priestes maie perceiue and all the people note I will report Quotie scunque illi aliquis ob percipiendam poenitentiam lapsus suos confessus esset it a flebat vt ilium flere compellerat Causas autem criminum quas illi confitebaniur nulli nisi Domino soli apud quens intercedebat loquebatur bonum relinquens exemplum posteris sacerdotibus vt intercessores apud Deum sin magis quà m accusatores apud homines That is to saie So often as anie man came vnto him to confesse his faultes and receiue penance he so wept that he made the Penitent to weepe also But the faults themselues which they confessed he vttered to no man but to God alone to whome for their sinnes he made sute leauing a blessed example to all Priestes of the posteritie to account themselues rather as intercessours to God for sinnes then accusers of men before the worlde for their sinne This saieth Paulinus of Saint Ambrose whereby at once we see the iudgement of them both for our matter FVLKE The iudgement of Saint Ambrose concerning the necessitie of popish thrift or auricular confession we haue
originall which Bull was graunted Hospitali Sancti 〈◊〉 in Saxia almae vrbis In which is an approbation of all pardons graunted by his predecessours to the saide hospitall and the members thereof Whereof there are rehearsed that Innocent the third graunted to the faith and deuotion of the faithfull and the saluation of their soules to all that visit the said hospitall and the members thereof from the feast of the natiuitie of our Lord and euerie day vnto the octaues thereof two thousand and 800. yeares of pardons The same Innocent graunted to the said hospitall and the members thereof in euerie festiuite of the Apostles 2000. yeares of pardons The same Ionocent graunted to the said hospitall and the members thereof euerie daie of the wholl yeare one yeare and 40. daies of pardon Also Pope Alexander the fourth graunted to the saied hospitall and the members thereof from the feast of the holie ghost in the moneth of Ianuarie euerie daie vntill the octaues of the same feast foure thousand yeares and eight hundred Lents of pardon remission of the seuenth part of al their sins And on the Sundaie in which there is song for the introite of the Masse Omnis terra the said Alexander graunted to the saied hospitall and to all and euerie the members thereof the first Sondaies of euerie moneth of the yeare 3000. yeares and as many Lentes and remission of the third part of all their sinnes The same Alexander graunted to the saide hospitall and the members thereof from the feast of Corpus Christi euerie daie vntill the octaues 2000. yeares and remission of the seuenth part of all their sinnes Pope Celestinus the 5. graunted to the saide hospitall and the members therof from the feast of the Epiphany vnto the octaues euerie daie a hundreth thousand yeares of Pardons The same Celestine graunted to the saied hospitall and the members thereof from the feast of the natiuitie of the Virgin Marie and in the octaues euerie daie thirtie thousand yeares of Pardon as many Lentes Also Pope Clement the 5. graunted to the said hospitall and the members thereof from the feast of the resurrection of Christ vnto the octaues thereof euerie daie two thousand and eight hundreth yeares of Pardon Item Pope Boneface the 8. graunted to the 〈◊〉 hospitall and to the members thereof from the feast of the ascension of Christ vnto the octaues 2500 yeares of Pardons Item Pope Clement the sixt graunted to the said hospitall and to all the members thereof from the feast of Pentecost vnto the octaues thereof euerie daie 8000. yeares 8000. Lentes full remission of all their sinnes Item Pope Innocent the 6. hath graunted to the said hospitall and to the members thereof from the feast of the assumption of the blessed Marie vnto the octaues thereof euerie daie 2000. yeares and 2000. Lentes of Pardons Item Pope Benedict the 12. hath graunted to the saide hospitall and the members thereof from the feast of all Saints to the feast of Saint Leonard 3000. yeares and as many Lentes of Pardons The summe of the daies of pardon graunted by Popes and by 60 Archbishops and by 70. Bishops in the consistorie of Lateran confirmed by the authoritie Apostolike maketh 700. yeares and as many Lentes The summe of the Masses of the wholl order by the yeare maketh thirtie two thousand and as many psalters of the bretheren which are of the order In these liberall grauntes where there is not onely thousandes of yeares and Lents by which you vnderstand paines penances inioyned or due for sinne what meaneth the remission of the seuenth part of the third part of all their sinnes yea full remission of all their sinnes except the Pope meane either to mocke men that receiue his pardons or els tooke vpon him to remit deadly sin as the words sound can haue none other sense seeing there is not onelie the vniuersall particle all their sinnes but also remission of sinnes is distinct from paine of penance due for sinnes Againe what should neede so large pardon for veniall sinnes which may so easilie be remitted without pardon except the pope meaneth to release the paines due for deadlie sinnes Doe ventall sinnes which may be washed away with holie water deserue so many hundred thousand yeares of penance or punishment as are conteined in these pardons Finallie what shal we saie to those pardons that are graunted for saying of certeine praiers wherof diuerse printed bookes are full in which is expresse mention of pardon for mortall sinnes As for example Pope Alexander the sixt graunteth to him that saieth a certeine praier deuoutlie in the worship of Saint Anne and the Virgin Marie and her sonne Iesus ten thousand yeares of pardon for deadlie sinnes and twentie yeares for veniall sinnes tottes quoties The praier with the indulgence is to be found in a booke printed at Paris no longer agoe then in anno 1534. fol. 85. in horis sanctae virginis What face then hath this proctor for the Popes pardons to affirme that the Pope neuer tooke vpon him by pardon to remit deadlie sinne But now let vs consider his reasons how he prooueth that the Popes pardons doe not properlie import remission of any deadlie crime c. Since the institution of the sacrament of penance no man can forgiue deadlie sinne without confession of the partie and purpose to satisfie the iustice of God Here are three positions assumed without proofe alwaies denied of vs namelie the institution of the sacrament of penance the necessitie of Popish confession or of the purpose of satisfying the iustice of God which no man can satisfie in any part but onelie Christ hath fullie satisfied the same for vs and therefore it is open blasphemie to saie that God can not forgiue a man his sinnes except he be willinglie to suffer due correction therefore For Christ hath once suffered for vs and found eternall redemption That God requireth repentance in them that receiue forgiuenes of sinnes beeing of discretion that is such as heare the worde and beleeue it is not so to be vnderstood as though God were restrained of his power by the impenitencie of man but that God giueth repentance to all such as whose sinnes he forgiueth For except he conuert vs we cannot repent Therefore it is a presumptuous saying to affirme that god cannot because he is righteous forgiue a man without he be penitent For his righteousnes is thoroughlie satisfied in Christ before we were borne And if it be his pleasure to forgiue a man his sinnes he will also giue him repentance and faith to apprehend Christ to his iustification But the Pope who is not able to giue repentance is no more able to forgiue sinnes If this matter hang as you saie vpon the necessitie of the sacrament of penance and confession to a Priest neither of both those necessities beeing prooued it hangeth in the aire and is concluded without proofe Now if God onelie by the ministerie of
not to recompence Gods iustice but to make satisfaction to the Church which is not to graunt remission in those cases but vpon good hope of the parties true conuersion and inwarde and vnfained repentance But as Augustine speaketh here of open satisfaction not to Gods iustice but to the Churches iudgement so you haue his authority or as good for secret satisfactiō which is now more vsed lest any man should feare that were not sufficiēt to satisfy for the remnant of the debt due for mortall sinnes forgiuen I know not whether to impute it to ignorance or impudencie but most intollerable presumption it is to make that author whatsoeuer he was a faulter of your popish secret satis faction now vsed to be prescribed in your secret shrifts For this writer as I haue before declared aloweth no secret satisfaction for the loosing of mortal crimes but vpon a verie hard condition namely sed mutato priùs saeculari habitu c. but so that the secular habit be first changed and the studie of religion be confessed by correction of life and continuall and perpetuall sorow thorough the mercie of God but so onelie that he doe contrarie things to them for which he repenteth euery Sundaie humby and submmissiuelie vnto his death he receiue the Eucharist c. This is not to say pater noster in rememberance of the fiue wounds or to giue fiue pence grotes or shillings to fiue poore men or to fast fiue frydaies or such single satisfaction as your Popish priests in shirst doe enioyne Touching the worde satisfaction vsed by this Monkish Augustine it is neuer vsed by the right autentike Austine to graunt that the sufferings or doeings of man can satisfy the iustice of god who is satisfied by Christs obedience onelie and by none other meane the vertue of whose satisfaction is communicated vnto vs by the holie Ghost whereof we are assured by faith onelie but not by a solitarie faith as this heretike doth slaunder vs but by a faith accompanied fruiteful huelie effectuall and workeing by loue as the holie scripture teacheth vs whatsoeuer these blasphemous dogs barke against it ALLEN Now to this ende haue we saied al this that the faithful may vnderstand perfectlie what the Pope may by right remit thorugh his Pardon and Indulgence For looke what the officers of Gods Church may binde that without all doubt may they vpon good consideration release againe Therefore if they may enioyne penance for yeares and daies both openlie out of the sacrament and also in priuate satisfaction after Confession then may they release certaine daies and yeares of the same penance which was prescribed before For loosing and binding pertaine by reason law Christs owne graunt as to one act of iurisdiction that the one beeing lawfull the other must needes so be also If the Church be of right power and authoritie to prescribe penance of seuen yeares she hath the like right to remit vpon iust respect either all those yeares or some part of the same especiallie hauing meanes otherwise to supplie the lacke of fatisfaction of Gods iustice in the partie penitent FVLKE There is no faithfull man can perceiue by any thing that you haue saide what right the Pope hath to remit by his pardon and indulgence that which is enioyned by an other It is out of doubt that the officers of the Church vpon good consideration may release that which they binde except for in emissibie sins they binde with insoluble bandes And therefore they may release daies or yeares appointed for triall of the repentance if the Church can be satisfied in shorter time But for priuate satisfaction of Gods iustice or any satisfaction of his iustice they can neither binde nor loose enioyne nor release Therefore if the Church be of power to enioyne and prescribe penance for seauen yeares shee is of power also to release seuen yeares or part of the same but shee hath no meanes to supplie the satisfaction of Gods iustice which is fullie satisfied in Christ whose satisfaction is not to be disposed according to the iudgement of men but is applied to all the elect of God according to his will and pleasure Now whereas you speake of seauen yeares penance and the streightest Canons of Ancyre prescribe but 25. yeares for the greatest crime whereto serue so many thousand yeares of Pardon If therefore all that you haue saide tende to this ende that men may vnderstand that the Pope hath power to release times of penance enioyned seeing no councell euer enioyned a thousand yeares penance nor any penance beyonde the time of a mans life in so much that the Councell of Nice decreed that they which departe out of the world should be receiued into the communion although their time were not expired why doth the Pope take vpon him to graunt an hundred thousand yeares of pardon at a clap as I haue shewed before out of a pardon imprinted and confirmed by Leo 10 But if the Pope haue authoritie to graunt pardon for so many thousand yeares of penance enioyned by the right of binding and loosing which you saie by reason law and graunt of Christ pertaine to one act of iurisdiction that the one beeing lawfull the other must needs be so also Then may euerie priest enioyne an hundred 50. 40. 10. or 7. thousand yeares of penance to them that come to shrift as wel as the Pope giue pardon for so many thousand yeares for hundreds be but beggerly things to talke of where thousand be so rife If you answere that the Pope doth pardon not onelie yeares of penance enioyned but also of yeares due to be enioyned the difficultie is nothing auoided for if thousands of yeares be due the priest may enioyne thousands of yeares But then he shal exceede al the Canons penitential that euer were made in any councel and yet be forced to graunt pardon at the houre of death ALLEN And therefore I ioyne in argument and open reason with our aduersaries thus To giue pardon in moste common and Catholike sense of that worde is to release some part or all the enioyned penance for sinnes remitted But the Pope because he is the principall gouernour of Gods Church may release any penance enioyned vpon iust considerations Ergo the Pope may lawfullie giue Pardons The Minor wherein the aduersaries may perchance giue backe I prooue thus That which was bound by the Churches or Popes authoritie may be lawfullie loosed by the same authoritie againe because Christ himselfe ioyned in his graunt both these acts togetber and they are prooued to be proper to one iurisdiction But the Church by the Decrees of Bishops and Councells hath appointed such penance and so many yeares of correction for sundrie faults therefore the same Bishops or such as be of the like authoritie when they see occasion may remit the penance of the saied yeares or some part of it by limitation of daies or seasons as the state of the penitent requireth or the
of necessarie collection For Logicke would stil iudge whether such meaning could be necessarilie gathered out of such wordes Seeing we are not bound to creditte any writings since the diuine inspired scriptures but so farre as they agree with the scriptures and receiue the light of trueth from them But those auncient writers to whome he would haue vs to referre our selues liued so many hun dred yeares after the Apostles and Euangelists the writers of the new testament as they could no more declare to them then to vs their meaning in their writings and therefore those auncient fathers which ground purgatorie prayer to saintes sacrifice of the altar vse of the crosse c. beside tradition vpon the scriptures as the answerer saith must shew the necessarie collection of them by the iudgement of demonstration seeing they neuer sawe the writers neuer heard them speake nor possiblie could liuing so long after them or els they can carie no credit of necessarie collection outof the expresse wordes of holy scripture As for tradition without scripture since God hath giuen the holie scripture is as good as the credit of men may be without a warrant from God A fourth waie of triall of spirites with him is Councells by which olde heretikes haue beene tried and they are content to referre themselues to all the Christian Councells that euer haue beene since Christ died We acknowledge Christian councells to be a godlie meane to exa mine and trie the spirites but according to the scriptures onelie for matters of faith as in the example of the first Councell of Christendome Act. 15. where the question was determined by authoritie of the scriptures But that the Papists dare abide the triall by al Councells it is false for they admit none but by the Popes consent they admitte nothing in them but that the present Pope doth allow Many Councells in Aphrica forbad appellations to Rome the general Councell of Chalcedon made the Bishop of Constantinople of equal dignitie with the Bishop of Rome the Bishop of Constantinople condemned and accursed a Pope sor an heretike the Pope of that time confirmed it yet now it is not holden for Catholike But I will spare examples vntill this lustie gallant dare aduenture the triall whereof he maketh the challenge But seeing there are many points of controuersies betweene vs and the Papists which in no auncient councell came in question he bobs vs with the last most learned Godlie and generall Councell of Trent which was gathered of purpose for triall of hercticall spirites whereunto all safe conduct being offered we refused to come for triall As though the Catholikes would haue come to the Councell of Nice if nothing might haue beene therein determined but that which pleased Arius or to the Councell of Constantinople if nothing might haue beene concluded but that Macedonius would allow Or to the Councells of Ephesus and Chalcedon if when all had beene saide that which liked Nestorius and Eutiches must haue bene holden for Catholike Such is our case we accuse the Pope to be an heritike yea and to be Antichrist the Pope will admit no councell but where he him selfe is iudge nor any to haue any voice determinatiue but onely such as are sworne to maintaine his heresies and ambition It is great pitie but the Protestants must come to such a councell Such were many councells holden of olde time by heretikes but for the most part not frequented by the Catholikes Some of our profession were at Trent but what entertainement had they euen such as their aduersaries could afforde them they were not permitted to haue any speach but as pleased their enemies wherefore when they saw noe equitie vsed as they could looke for no better before they came they left the heretikes to consult among them-selues by example of auncient fathers in like Chapters of heretikes The sift waie of triall is to referre the matter to the olde Doctors which liued before the controuersies began of which we haue spoken latelie and this we haue often vsed and still vse against the Papists in most controuersies although the authoritie of man is no certaine rule to trie which is the truth of God Augustine against Iulian vsed this waie rightlie first confuting the Pelagians by the authoritie of the holie scripture and then by the testimonie of the auncient fathers also Theodosius also in a case determined by the holie scripture did politikelie circumuent the heretikes after the aduise of Sisinius the Nouatian by the suggestion of Nectarius the Catholike to put them to a foile which had good successe because the others cause was naught But Epiphanius hath a hard saying against vs as our answerer thinketh It is enough to say against all heresies the catholike church hath not taught this the holy fathers haue not admitted this But I wene Epiphanius doth not meane that it is enough to saie so except men can prooue it to be so For els it is aseasy for heretikes to saie so against Catholikes as for Catholikes against heretikes And here out answerer voucheth Epiphanius quoting onelie lib. 2. contra haere but no Chapter of so long a booke wherebie knowing him to be a common foyster we maie well suspect his honestie in this voucher vntill he shew vs in what Chapter we shall finde it The sixtwaie of triall with him is to consider which is the Catholike or vniuersall Church or great multitude of Christians out of which the other part first departed But to consider which is the Catholike or vniuersal Church is no waie of triall but the matter to be tried And the description that he maketh of the Church is as vncerten the great multitud of Christians out of which the other part first departed For the Catholike Church is not alwaies the greatest multitude When the East Church was deuided from the West the one was as great a multitude as the other yea considering the number of prouinces of the East and the largenesse of them it was the greater And one heresie some times departeth out of another as the Rogatians from the Donatists the Eunomians from the Arrians the Iacobites from the Eutichians c. Neither doth Saint Augustine against the Manichecs make the consent of people and the name of Catholike of them-selues to be a sufficient waie of trial but among many thinges which altogether held him beside the authoritie of the holie scriptures he accounteth these which with the truth are a good confirmation but can be no preiudice against the manifest truth as he confesseth in the same place To the iudgement of Vincentius we will subscribe to holde that which euerie where which alwaies which of all hath beene beleeued so hath no point of Poperie Hoc est etenim verè proprièque Catholicum quòd ipsa vis nominis ratioque declarat quod omnia verè vniuersaliter comprehendit For that is truelie and properlie Catholike saith Vincentius which thing the verie force and reason of the name declareth
which truelie comprehendeth all thinges vniuersallie These wordes in rehearsing the saying of Vincentius our answerer could not beare and therefore left them out bragging of vniuersalitie antiquitie and consent whereby his aduersaries spirit might quicklie be tried But let him once attempt to trie anie one peece of Poperie by this rule of Vincentius and so shew it to be Catholike as he describeth Catholike and he shall finde it an harder matter to performe then to talke of examining his point by the authenticall writings of the most auncient doctors for 200. yeares after Christ. The seuenth waie of triall is succession of Popes in the seate of Rome wherein the successor alwaies teaching the doctrine of his predecessor it must needes be a strong argument to prooue the descent and continuance of one the same faith from the Apostles time This argument is vsed by Saint Augustine and Optatus against the Manichees and Donatistes But this waie of triall he knoweth his aduersaries will not admit But he is deceiued for seeing he ioyneth succession in doctrine with succession in place let him make triall when he dare and prooue that Peter and all the Bishops of Rome that liued for foure fiue or six hundred yeares after Christ did holde all points of Poperie and had none other faith then the Papists haue now Some of the later mightholde some few and of the best errors But let them shew all in euerie one and take all but that shall thev neuer be able to doe brag they of succession as long as they list The eight waie of triall is to examine what part doth holde any olde condemned heresie for the true Church can neuer admit or defend any heresie for otherwise she could not be the piller of truth The true Church may erre in matters which are not of necessitie to saluation yet be the piller of trueh so long as she holdeth al truth necessarie to saluation yea some true Church may be seduced for a time with hereticall opinions as the Churches of Corinth and Galatia but not obstinately defend them nor continue in them For of a particuler Church as the Church of Ephesus the Apostle speaketh wherein Timothie had his conuersation But we beleeue saith the answerer with holie Athanasius in his creede that he which holdeth not the faith whollie in all points shall perish eternallie howsoeuer our aduersaries doe salue the matter in their Prophets Berengarius Husse Wicklife and Luther whome they saie to haue bene holie men and yet to haue erred in diuerse pointes offaith and to haue held their errors obstinatlie to the daie of their death And we beleeue with holie Athanasius that whoesoeuer shall not holde that Catholike faith which he or whoesoeuer vnder his name setteth downe in that Symbole or creed wholl and vndefiled without doubt he shall perish eternallie But not euerie one that erreth in any small point of doctrine or faith which is not of the foundation of our religion For so doth not Athanasius saie and our aduersarie falsisieth both his wordes and meaning to drawe him to that sense of his Now if Berengarius Wicklife Husse Luther cannot be conuinced of any heresie contrarie to Athanasius Creede though they erred in other points they are not subiect to his sentence of eternall damnation more then Cyprian Augustine Hierome whoe erred also in some points of doctrine yet are rightlie accounted saints and elect of God as they which held the foundation and all articles of faith necessarie to saluation But where he chargeth vsto saie that Berengarius Husse c. did erre in diuerse points of faith meaning thereby diuerse articles of Athanasius Creede he doth vs and them great iniury for that we neither saie nor thinke neither saie we that they did obstinatelie holde those errors wherein they were deceiued although they did stiflie holde them not as heretikes which are condemned in their owne conscience but as men deceiued with zeale of truth euen in those points wherin they were deceiued But we beleeue saith he the contrarie by which beliefe he will condemne the best and most auncient Catholike fathers who as men helde euerie one of them for the moste parte one error as hath bene shewed But whoesoeuer coulde shew saith he but one confessed heresie to be defended by our Church there needed no more disputation about the matter It will be a hard matter to make the Papists confesse that their Church holdeth any heresie but it hath beene often shewed that the Popish Church holdeth many things of olde time condemned for heresie as worspiping of the Image of Christ in the Carpocratites and Gnostikes Inuocation of Angels in the Caianes licensing of women to Baptize in the Marcionites worspiping of Angels of men and women that are dead in the Collyridians and such like But for the right vse of this triall he requireth two conditions to be obserued The first is that the partie do in deede holde that which is obiected and not a certaine likelyhood of it in which point he chargeth vs to slaunder them with the heresie of Pelagius concerning free will who held that men without the helpe of Gods grace by the power and force of nature could worke well but they require that a man should be preuented and holpen with the grace of God In trueth we do not obiect vnto them all articles of Pelagius heresie but yet they are not free for Pelagius held that by the power of nature men might keepe Gods law but more easelie by the help of Gods grace the former the Papists holde not but they holde the latter that a man holpen with Gods grace hath free-will and power to keepe Gods law Their doctrine also of merite ex congruo of workes preparatorie before grace and such like are nothing els but branches of the Pelagian heresie The like iniurie he saith we do them in objecting the heresie of those that did sacrifice to our Ladie which they do not A great iniurie I promise you the Collyridians offered cakes onelie to her the Papists offer candels ouches and brouches monie and Iewels The Collyridians did garnish a charret where her Image was the Papists adorne tabernacles as they call them yea chappels altars and Churches to worship her Epiphanius condemneth the studie of making her Image and the Images of dead saints as a deuellish attempt He inueigheth most seuerelie against the worshipping of the virgine Marie of Angels and of saintes departed yetall this is Catholike among the Papists and we offer them iniurie to charge them with this olde heresie because they do not offer cakes as the Collyridians did The second condition is that the heresie obiected be accounted condemned for an heresy in the Primitiue Church not onelie held by an heretike for heretikes held manie trueths together with their heresies And here he complaineth that Doctor Fulke doth them wrong in saying that praiers for the dead is an heresie because the Montanistes which were