Selected quad for the lemma: water_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
water_n	ghost_n	holy_a	lord_n	4,282	5	3.9053	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69535	The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Commission for the Review and Alteration of the Book of Common Prayer.	1661 (1661)	Wing B1278A; Wing E3841; ESTC R7198	132,164	165

Baptism do depend on all the necessary con-causes on Gods mercy or Christs merits on the Institution and on Baptism it self according to its use as a delivering investing Sign and Seal and they depend upon the promise sealed by Baptism and the promise supposeth the qualified subject or requisite Condition in him that shall have the benefit of it To tell us therefore of a common Cause on which the effect depends viz. the Institution of Baptism it self when we are inquiring after the special condition that proveth the person to be the due subject to whom both Promise and Baptism doth belong This is but to seem to make an Answer Either all baptized absolutely are justified and saved or not If yea then Christianity is another kind of thing than Peter or Paul understood that thought it was not the Washing of water but the Answer of a good Conscience to God Then let us catch Heathens and dip them and save them in despite of them But if any condition be requisite as we are sure there is our Question is What it is and you tell us of Baptism it self Did ever August jure vel injuria was to be esteemed a Believer We grant with Austin that Infants of Believers propter Sacramentum fidei are visibly and professedly to be numbred with Believers but neither Austin nor we will ever grant you that this is true of all that you can catch and use this form of Baptism over The Seal will not save them that have no part in the Promise The Catechism is not intended as a whole Body of Divinity but as a Comprehension of the Articles of Faith and other Doctrines most necessary to Salvation and being short is fittest for Children and Common people and as it was thought sufficient upon mature deliberation and so is by us Repl. The Creed the Decalogue and the Lords Prayer contain all that is absolutely necessary to Salvation at least If you intended no more What need you make a Catechism If you intend more Why have you no more But except in the verie words of the Creed the essentials of Christianity are left out If no explication be necessary trouble them with no more than the Text of the Creed c. If explication be necessary let them have it At least in a larger Catechism fitter for the riper CONFIRMATION It is evident that the meaning of these words is that Children Baptized and dying before they commit actual Sin are undoubtedly Saved though they be not Confirmed wherein we see not what danger there can be of misleading the vulgar by teaching them truth But there may be danger in this desire of having these words expunged as if they were false for St. Austin saies He is an Infidel that desires them to be true Ep. 23. ad Bonifac. Repl. What all Children Saved whether they be Children of the Promise or no Or can you shew us a Text that saith Whoever is Baptized shall be Saved The Common-Prayer-Book plainly speaks of the non-necessity of Unction Confirmation and other Popish Ceremonies and Sacraments and meaneth that ex parte Ecclesiae they have all things necessary to Salvation and are undoubtedly Saved supposing them the due Subjects and that nothing be wanting ex parte sui which certainly is not the case of such as are not Children of the Promise and Covenant The Child of an Heathen doth not ponere obicem actually quo minus baptizetur and yet being baptized is not saved on your own reckoning as we understand you therefore the Parent can ponere obicem and either hinder the Baptism or effect to his Infant Austin speaks not there of all Children whatever but those that are offered per aliorum spiritualem voluntatem by the Parents usually or by those that own them after the Parents be dead or they exposed or become theirs He speaks also of what may be done de eo quod fieri non posse arbitratur But our question is What is done and not What God can do Our great Question is What Children they be that Baptism belongeth to After the Catechism we conceive that it is not a sufficient qualification c. We conceive that this qualification is required rather as necessary than as sufficient and therefore it is the duty of the Minister of the place Can. 61. to prepare Children in the best manner to be presented to the Bishop for Confirmation and to inform the Bishop of their fitnesse but submitting the judgement to the Bishop both of this and other qualifications and not that the Bishop should be tyed to the Ministers consent Compare this Rubr. to the second Rubr. before the Catechism and there is required what is further necessary and sufficient Repl. 1. If we have all necessary ordinarily we have that which is sufficient ad esse there is more ordinarily necessary than to say those words 2. Do you owe the King no more obedience Already do you contradict His Declaration which saith Confirmation shall be performed by the information and with the consent of the Minister of the place But if the Ministers consent shall not be necessary take all the charge upon your own souls and let your souls be answerable for all They see no need of Godf. here The Compilers of the Liturgie did and so doth the Church that there may be a witnesse of the Confirmation Repl. It is like to be your own work as you will use it and we cannot hinder you from doing it in your own way But are Godfathers no more than witnesses c. This supposeth that all children c. It supposeth and that truly that all children were at their Baptism regenerate by Water and the Holy Ghost and had given unto them the forgivenesse of all their Sins and it is charitably presumed that notwithstanding the frailties and slips of their Childhood they have not totally lost what was in Baptism conferred upon them and therefore addes Strengthen them we beseech thee O Lord with the Holy Ghost the Comforter and daily encrease in them their manifold gifts of Grace c. None that lives in open sin ought to be Confirmed Repl. 1. Children baptized without right cannot be presumed to be really regenerate and pardoned 2. We speak only of those that by living in open sin do shew themselves to be unjustified and these you confesse should not be Confirmed O that you would but practise that If not this Confession will witnesse against you Before the imposition of hands c. Confirmation is reserved to the Bishop in honorem Ordinis To blesse being an Act of Authority so was it of old St. Hierom Dialog Adv. Lucifer saies it was totius orbis consensio in hanc partem And St. Cyprian to the same purpose Ep. 73. And our Church doth every where professe as she ought to conform to the Catholick usages of the Primitive times from which causelesly to depart argues rather love of contention than of peace

us to hear so much of the Churches Primitive practice where so litle evidence of it is produced Aug. ep 23. talketh not of Primitive practice Ab initio non fuit sic Was it so in the Apostles daies And afterwards you prove not that it was the judgment of the Catholick Church that bare Sponsors instead of Parents Pro-parents or Owners of the Children might procure to the Children of all Infidels a title to Baptism and its benefits Such Susceptors as became the Owners or Adopters of the Children are to be distinguished from those that pro forma stand by for an hour during the Baptizing of the Children and ever after leave them to their Parents who as they have the naturall interest in them and power of their disposall and the Education of them so are fittest to covenant in their names The Font usually stands as it did in Primitive times at or near the Church door to signify that Baptism was the entrance into the Church mysticall we are all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12. 13. and the people may hear well enough If Jordan and all other waters be not so far sanctified by Christ as to be the matter of Baptism what authority have we to baptise and sure his Baptism was Dedicatio Baptismi Reply Our less difference of the Font and flood Jordan is almost drowned in the greater before going But to the first we say that we conceive the usual scituation for the people's hearing is to be preferred before your Ceremonious position of it And to the second we say that Dedicatio Baptismi is an unfitting phrase and yet if it were not what 's that to the sanctification of Jordan and all other waters Did Christ sanctify all Corn or Bread or Grapes or Wine to an holy use when he administred the Lords Supper Sanctifying is separating to an holy use But the flood Jordan and all other water is not separated to this holy use in any proper sense No more than all mankind is sanctified to the Priestly office because men were made Priests It hath been accounted reasonable and allowed by the best Laws that Guardians should Covenant and contract for their Minors to their benefit by the same right the Church hath appointed sureties to undertake for Children when they enter into Covenant with God by Baptism And this generall practice of the Church is enough to satisfy those that doubt Repl. 1. Who made those Sureties Guardians of the Infants that are neither Parents nor Pro-parents nor Owners of them We are not now speaking against Sponsors But you know that the very original of those Sponsors is a great Controversie And whether they were not at first most properly Sponsors for the Parents that they should perform that part they undertook because many Parents were Desertors and many proved negligent Sponsors then excluded not Parents from their proper undertaking but joyned with them God-fathers are not the Infants Guardians with us and therefore have not power thus to Covenant and Vow in their name VVe intreat you to take heed of leaving any Children indeed out of the mutual Covenant that are baptized How are those in the Covenant that cannot consent themselves and do it not by any that truly represent them nor have any Authority to act as in their names The Authority of Parents being most unquestionable who by nature and the word of God have the power of disposing of their Children and consequently of choosing and covenanting for them VVhy should it not be preferred at lest you may give leave to those Parents that desire it to be the Dedicators of and Covenanters for their own Children and not force others on them whether they will or no. 2. But the question is not of Covenanting but professing present actual believing forsaking c. In which though we believe the Churches sense was sound yet we desire that all things that may render it lyable to mis-understanding may be avoyded Receive remission of sins by spiritual Regeneration Most proper for Baptism is our spiritual Regeneration S. John 3. Unlesse a man be born again of Water and the Spirit c. And by this is received remission of sins Acts 2. 3. Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins 's So the Creed one Baptism for the remission of sins Repl. Baptism as an outward Administration is our visible Sacramental Regeneration Baptism as containing with the Sign the thing signified is our spiritual real Regeneration As we are regenerated before Baptism as you know adult Believers are so we cannot pray to receive remission of sins by that same Regeneration renewed As we are regenerated really in Baptism that Regeneration and Remission are conjunct benefits But if Baptism at once give Regeneration and Remission it follows not that it gives Remission by Regeneration But as Regeneration comprehendeth the whole change reall or Physical and relative so we acknowledge that as the part is given by the whole you may say that Remission is given by Regeneration but more fitly in it than by it But we are not willing to make more adoe about words than needs We cannot in faith say that every Child that is baptized is regenerate c. Seeing that Gods Sacraments have their effects where the Receiver doth not ponere obicem put any bar against them which children cannot do we may say in faith of every child that is baptized that it is regenerated by Gods Holy Spirit and the denial of it tends to Anabaptism and the contempt of this holy Sacrament as nothing worthy nor material whether it be administred to children or no Concerning the Cross we refer to our Answer to the same in general Repl. All Gods Sacraments attain their proper end But whether the Infants of Infidels be the due Subjects and whether their ends be to seal up Grace and Salvation to them that have no promise of it or whether it be only to seal the Covenant to believers and their seed are Questions yet undecided wherein we must intreat you not to expect that we should implicitly believe you and it is as easy for us to tell you that you are promoting Anabaptism and much more easy to prove it We take those but for words of course PRIVATE BAPTISM We desire that Baptism may not be administred in a private place And so do we where it may be brought into the publick Congregation But since our Lord hath said S. Joh 3. Unlesse one be born of Water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven We think it fit that they should be Baptized in private rather than not at all It is appointed now to be done by the lawful Minister Repl. We must needs suppose you are disputing with Protestants who ordinarily shew the Papists that that Text Joh. 3. asserteth no absolute necessity of Baptisme to salvation But we believe as well as you that it is the regular way of solemn