Selected quad for the lemma: water_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
water_n	bread_n	lord_n	wine_n	3,679	5	7.3104	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A26853	An accompt of all the proceedings of the commissioners of both persvvasions appointed by His Sacred Majesty, according to letters patent, for the review of the Book of common prayer, &c.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1661 (1661)	Wing B1177; ESTC R34403	133,102	166

you think it not a taking too much upon us to keep away the scandalous if they have their Appeals to you And is it indeed a power too great and arbitrary to have a judicium discretionis about our own Acts and not to be forced to baptize the Children of Heathens against our Consciences who judged for the Baptizers in the primitive Church what persons they should baptize We act but as Engines under you and not as men if we must not use our reason and we are more miserable than brutes or men if we must be forced to go against our Consciences unless you will save us harmless before God O that in a fair debate you would prove to us that such Children as are described are to be baptized and that the Ministers that baptize them must not have power to discern who to baptize But who mean you by the Churches that must present every Infant that Christ may accept them Is every Infant first in the Promise of pardon If so shew us that Promise and then sure God will make good that Promise though Heathen Parents present not their Children to him as your grounds suppose if not then will the sign save those that are not in the Promise But is it the God-fathers that are the Church whoever called them so And if by the Church you mean the Minister and by presenting you meant baptizing them then any Heathens Child that a Minister can catch up and baptize shall be saved which if it could be proved would perswade us to go hunt for Children in Turkie Tartary or America and secretly baptize them in a habit that should not make us known but there is more of fancy than charity in this and Christ never invited any to him but the Children of the Promise to be thus presented and baptized Sect. 2. The time appointed we conceive sufficient Repl. We conjecture the words that conclude your former Subject being misplaced are intended as your Answer to this and if all the Children of any sort in the world that are brought to us must by us be baptized without distinction indeed it is no great matter what time we have notice of it Sect. 3. P. 23. Ans. And then the God-fathers c. It is an erronious doctrine and the ground of many others and of many of your Exc●ptions that Children have no other right to Baptism than in ●heir Parents right the Churches primitive practice forbids it to be left to the pleasure of the Parents whether there shall be other Sureties or no St. Aug. Ep. 23. It is fit we should observe carefully the practice of venerable Antiquity as they desire Prop. 18. Repl. It seems we differ in Doctrine though we subscribe the same Articles we earnestly desire you distinctly to tell us what is the Infants title to Baptism if it be not to be found in the Parent Assign it and prove it when you have done as well as we prove their right as they are the Seed of Believers dedicated to them by God and then we promise to consent It 's strange to us to hear so much of the Churches primitive practice where so little evidence of it is produced Aug. Ep. 23. talketh not of primitive practice ab initio non fuit sic was it so in the Apostles dayes And afterwards you prove not that it was the judgement of the Catholick Church that bare Sponsers instead of Parents Pro-parents or Owners of the Children might procure to the Children of all Infidels a title to Baptism and its benefits Such Suscepters as became the Owners or Adopters of the Children are to be distinguished from those that proforma stand by for an hour during the baptizing of Children and ever after leave them to their Parents who as they have the natural interest in them and power of their disposal and the Education of them so are fittest to covenant in their names Sect. 4. Ans. The Font usually stands as it did in primitive times at or near the Church door to signifie that Baptism was the entrance into the Church mystical We are all bap●ized into one Body 1 Cor. 12. 13. and the People may hear well enough If Jordan and all other waters be not so far sanctified by Christ as to be the matter of Baptism what Authority have we to baptize and sure his Baptism was dedicatio Baptismi Repl. Our lesser difference about the Font and the flood Jordan is almost drowned in the greater before going But to the first we say that we conceive the usual scituation for the Peoples hearing is to be preferred before your Ceremonious position of it And to the second we say that dedicatio Baptismi is an unfiting phrase and yet if it were not what 's that to the sanctification of Jordan and all other waters Did Christ sanctifie all Corn or Bread or Grapes or Wine to an holy use when he administred the Lords Supper Sanctifying is separating to an holy use but the flood Jordan and all other water is not separted to this holy use in any proper sense no more than all mankind is sanctified to the Priestly Office because men were made Priests Sect. 5. Sureties c. P. 24. Ans. It hath been accounted reasonable and allowed by the best Laws that Guardians should Covenant and contract for their Minors to their benefit by the same right the Church hath appointed Sureties to undertake for Children when they enter into Covenant with God by Baptism St. Aug. Ep. 23. And this general practice of the Church is enough to satisfie those that doubt Rep. 1. Who made those Sureties Guardians of the Infants that are neither Parents nor Pro-parents not Owners of them we are not now speaking against Sponsors But you know that the very Original of those Sponsors is a great Controversie And whether they were not at first most properly Sponsors for the Parents that they should perform that part they undertook because many Parents were Deserrors and many proved negligent Sponsors then excluded not Parents from their proper undertaking but joyned with them Godfathers are not the Infants Guardians with us and therefore have not power thus to Covenant and Vow in their names We intreat you to take heed of leaving any Children indeed out of the mutual Covenant that are baptised How are those in the Covenant that cannot consent themselves and do it not by any that truly represent them nor have any Authority to act as in their names The Authority of Parents being most unquestionable who by nature and the Word of God have the power of disposing of their Children and consequently of choosing and covenanting for them Why should it not be preferred at least you may give leave to those Parents that desire it to be the Dedicators of and Covenanters for their own Children and not force others on them whether they will or no. 2. But the question is not of Covenanting but professing present Actual believing forsaking c. In which