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A14368 A stronge battery against the idolatrous inuocation of the dead saintes, and against the hauyng or setting up of images in the house of prayer, or in any other place where there is any paril of idolatrye, made dialoguewise by Iohn Veron VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1562 (1562) STC 24686; ESTC S102670 105,295 264

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the priestes the people goe aboute all the places of prayers and dyd lye prostrate in suckeclothe before the shrines of the martirs and Apostles and did require helpe for hymselfe by the faithful intercession of the Saintes What will ye say now to this No man can deny but that this is a moste auncient hystorie Answer Antiqu●●●● vvithout trueth proueth nothing Eutrapelus I haue many tymes hearde oure brother Philalethes saye that antiquitie without a truthe or without a good foundation or grounde in gods booke proueth nothyng Againe when certaine arguments of Hierom wer discussed it was by sufficiente testimonies and authoritie of the scriptures proued that the examples of such kynges and bishoppes which are brought foorth without any authoritie of the scriptures doo in such weightie matters proue nothynge Ye do not reade in al the boke of God that any of the godly and faithfull kynges dyd euer lie prostrate before the shrines of the righteous and did craue for help by the faithfull intercession of the dead For they did all crye out My helpe is from the Lorde whiche made both heauen and the earth The Lorde shal preserue thee from all euyll the Lord shall kepe thy soule The Lorde shall keepe thy goyng out and thy goyng in frome hensefoorth worlde without ende The exposition of Ruffinus vvor●●● Philalethes Besydes Ruffinus wordes doo appeare to be suche that they ought rather to be vnderstanded of the intercession of the saints that were in the earth For it seemeth that the prince went about all the oratories or prayeng places where the congregation of the sainctes was assembled and that he dyd desyre the faithfull to praye most earnestly vnto god that he would vouchsafe to geue him the victorye and to preserue his empire to the commodity profite and vtilitie of many men The like in a manner haue we in the said Ruffinus li. 10. ca. 8 where wee haue these woordes In the meane while Constantinus trusting in godlines did euen in their own contrey subdue the Sarmatiās the Gothes other Barbarous contreys and nations those excepted which eyther by frendeship or by yelding of them selues did preuente peace And the more deuoutely and humbly he did submitte hym selfe vnto god the more God did subdue all things vnder hym He dyd also send letters to Antonie the first inhabitaunt of the wildernesse as vnto one of the prophetes desiring him that he woulde praye vnto the lorde for him and for his children So he did not onely study to be made commendable vnto god by his own merites and by the deuotion of his mother but also by the intercession of the Saints Mark how he did here take the intercession of the saintes neither doo I see any cause why wee maye not expounde that place touching Theodosius VVhat the vision of Theodosius doth signify of the intercession of the saints that were aliue here on the erth And where as they say that the Apostles Iohn and Phillip did appeare vnto Theodosius the emperour what shall they gather by it But that he was by such a vision certified of the victorye as Iudas Machabaeus was before by the appearing of Onias and Hieremy And therfore as Iudas Machabaeus dyd not call vppon Onias and Hieremie when he should ioygne in battail with his enemies but vpon the mighty Lorde of hostes In like maner Theodosius whan he sawe his souldiours turne their backes he prayed not vnto the Apostelles but vnto god sayeng O almighty god The prayer of Theodosius thou knowest that for to reuenge the iuste quarell of thy sonne Iesu Christ I haue taken in hande these warres yf it be otherwise poure thy vengeaunce vpon me But if trusting in thee and vppon a iust cause I am come hether retch forth thy right hand vnto thyne lest the gentils do say where is now their god Whereunto the same doth well agree whiche Saincte Augustine in hys fyfte booke of the city of god and .26 chapiter doothe write of this moste holy prince how that he did put his whole confidēce and trust in God as in his moste strong shield and bucklar and strong bulwark agaynst his ennemies Didymus Obie 26 The cōmune people is wont to saye stil that it was a mery world when the holy virgin Mary and all the blessed sainctes in heauen were prayed vnto and woorshipped whervppon they doo gather God was well pleased withall els God would not haue sent vnto them such felicitie But nowe sens pylgremages prayeng vnto sainctes was put downe rhe worlde hath ben in all kynde of myserie Philalethes Answer Hiere 44 The lyke were they wont to lay to Hieremies charge vsing these stoute wordes agaynst hym The woorde that thou haste spoken to vs in the name of the Lorde we wil not here it of thee but we will doo whatsoeuer thyng goeth out of oure owne mouthe as to burne incense vnto the queene of heauen and to poure out drynke offringes vnto her as we haue doone bothe we and our fathers our kinges and our princes in the cities of Iuda and in the stretes of Hierusalem for then had we plentie of vitailes and were well and selfe none yll but sens we leste of to burne incense to the queene of heauen and to poure out drinke offerynges vnto her we haue hadde scarcenesse of all thynges and haue ben consumed by the sworde and famyne Do not I pray you the worshippers of dead Saintes make the lyke complaintes praisyng the felicitie of the olde world as they do terme it when al kynd of idolatrie did reigne The common complaint of idolaters But this is the commune cōplaint of idolaters For both Demetrianus and the commune sorte of the heathen dyd lay to the christiās charge that it was long of them that suche cruell warres did arise emong them that theyr catell dyed of the moreyn that they were plagued with pestilence and famyne and that they had vnseasonable weathers yea that all maner of plages that the world was plagued withall oughte to be impuded vnto them Cypr cont●● demetrianum But Cyprian doothe so answere to al these vaine obiections that his aunswere maye serue vs for to stoppe the mouthes of the vayne Papistes whiche nowe doo make so greate a brag of the felicitie of theyr idolatrous tyme. But leauing mens auctorities I wil shew how the lord him self doth answere or rather handel this obiection of the aduersaries in his prophete Osee For Osee 1. he sayth your mother hath played the harlot for she said I wil go after my louers that geue me my bread and my water my wol and my star myne oyle and my drinke And she did not knowe that I gaue her corn and wyne and oile and multiplied her siluer and gold whiche thei bestowed vpō Baal Therfore wyl I return and take away my corne in the tyme therof my wyne in the sea son therof and wil recouer my wol and my flaxe lent to