Selected quad for the lemma: water_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
water_n	bread_n	lord_n	wine_n	3,679	5	7.3104	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10973	Two dialogues, or conferences (about an old question lately renued, and by the schismaticall company, both by printed pamphlets, and otherwise to the disturbance of the Churches quiet, and of peaceable minds, very hotly pursued.) Concerning kneeling in the very act of receiuing the sacramental bread and wine, in the Supper of the Lord The former betweene two ministers of the word, the one refractarie, and depriued; the other not so. The latter betweene an humorous schismatike and a setled professor.	Rogers, Thomas, d. 1616.	1608 (1608)	STC 21241; ESTC S116109	75,976	132

the vine are more inseparably conioyned than we to him he communicating vnto vs his vigor and virtue Furthermore wee testifie and make it knowne to the world how we are members of that Church which professeth and acknowledgeth how the Sonne of God by the Sacrifice of his humane bodie hath pacified God for the sinnes of man It admonisheth vs in like sort of the mutuall loue and communion which is and ought to be betweene the members of so sacred and sanctified a body Many other causes and reasons may be alleadged why this Sacrament was instituted at the first and is frequented still of Gods people whereof though the setting out of our Communion and spirituall familiaritie with him and reioycing in him be one yet it is not the onely end but many being besides many gestures in diuers respects and not one onely is required for the more seemely receauing the same externallie Againe there being many causes and ends of our receauing the holy Supper one and the same site of body neither doth remember vs nor can present and represent all those ends vnto vs and others And therefore as sitting may note our communion and familiarity so kneeling our thankfulnes vnto God But if this spirituall Communion and comfort onely be thereby signified as nothing is more vntrue yet is the same expressed by the other Sacrament of Baptisme as well as by this and represented as well by water consisting of many drops as either of wine effected of many grapes or of bread made of many graines Which Baptisme yet is neither ministred nor vrged so to be by Sitting as the Supper is Neither is our corporall foode alwaies and euery where to the greatest comfort and token of sweetest familiarity receiued Sitting but sundry writers haue their seuerall fashions in their friendly and comfortable refreshings some taking the same one way some another not all Sitting especially in the Easterne parts of the world The antient Fathers some of them called this sacrament as the Lords Supper so a Sacrifice and that which the bread and wine were set vpon as the Lords Table so an Altar Whereof saith reuerent and most learned Zanchie although that Altars serue rather and be more meete for the offering then for the ministration of the Supper yet seeing neither Christ nor his Apostles either prohibited Altars or commended vnto vs the vse of wooden tables therefore is this also of altars to bee numbred among things indifferent and free for all and euery man to vse tables either of wood or stone at his discretion prouided that all superstition be remooued For what is an Altar saieth that holy and peaceable man what is an altar but a table made of stones about which would not I contend saith hee if so be otherwise there is a consent in the true doctrine and worship of God All this hath Zanchie which we say of Kneeling and the like And would to God you would so thinke of our Kneeing and others Altars and of all things else in good vse in reformed Churches that be indifferent Then would then could you neuer say that not Kneeling and Sitting is for receiuing It had bin too much for you to haue said how not kneeling but auerring that Sitting is for receiuing as if none other gesture were for the commodious and meete receiuing thereof but Sitting is very bad The first admonitioners which so disliked Kneeling at the Communion neuer vrged their Sitting as a thing necessary as you doe saying not Kneeling but Sitting is for receiuing For say they wee make not Sitting a thing of necessity belonging to the Sacrament neither affirme wee that it may not be receiued otherwise Therefore better iudge they of these than you doe but they best of all who take them as they are things of themselues indifferent and so except authority determine otherwise like to be deemed and that as good Communion and society they haue with Christ and his Church hauing on them the wedding garment of Faith which receiue Kneeling as they which Sit so as no man for the very act of kneeling no more then of Sitting sinneth Schis We read not of any gesture of body prescribed or obserued in Circumcision and Baptisme as in the Passeouer and Supper Pro. Or obserued Had you not added these wordes I should haue thought that by your reading you had found how thereis a forme of gesture prescribed vnto Christians at their taking the holy Communion And though I shreudly coniecture you are of that minde yet being not willing to take you at the worst let vs know the reason why a gesture was obserued though not prescribed at the holy Supper which was neither prescribed nor obserued at Baptisme and Circumcision Schis Because there needeth no naturall regard to be had of any certaine gesture in the two former Sacraments so the fore-skin were cut off and water be vsed but in the other two a gesture answerable to the action is requisite Pro. It is requisit and necessary that we take and eate bread and wine at the supper of the Lord as it was requisite that the fore-skin should be cut off at Circumcision and water vsed and none other liquor at Baptisme but that a certaine gesture was either obserued or requisit at the Communion this reason sheweth not Schis God prescribed to his people when they were to flie out of Egypt the gesture of loynes girded and staues in their hands because the eating then of the Passeouer was in hast But the gesture being but for that time as may appeare by the omission thereof when the obseruation of the Passeouer was established our Master Christ who came not to breake but fulfill the Law and knew what was fittest to be done did eate the Passeouer Sitting a gesture more answerable to eating in peace than the former vsed in Egypt Pro. Because God prescribed to the Iewes a forme of taking and eating the Passeouer hath hee therefore prescribed a forme to Christians of taking and receiuing the Lords Supper The one you manifest the other I would see prooued But had our God set downe as he hath not the manner how Christians should receaue the Supper as hee ordained how the Passeouer should bee taken and eaten of the Iewes yet because you heere confesse that this forme of eating the Passeouer in processe of time was altered the Iewes now eating the same Sacrament for substance but after a new manner sitting in Christs time for so you say standing afore and yet without sinne why may not wee Christians vpon as good reasons retaining the substance change the manner after which the holy Supper was ministred and receiued in the daies of Christ Before Christ his time there were additions vnto you heard afore in Christ his time there were alterations of the manner of taking the Passe-ouer your selfe do say yet all well liked and allowed of the Lord. Had the Iewes more libertie to adde formes euen of

thus vrged by authority if the sacramental signing of the body and blood of Christ bee no more to be reuerenced then water applyed in Baptizing children seeing that is also a sanctified signe of Christ his blood that washeth away our sinnes and iniquity P. If they will by you be aduised the simple and superstitious shall so argue and thereby fall into a loathing of our manner of receiuing the sacrament But you and they must be answered how the church of England hath the two sacraments in equall price and estimation conceiuing highly and religiously of them both but ascribing diuine adoration yea none adoration at all either vnto the Bread wine of the one or vnto the water of the other albeit the water signifieth Christ his blood that washeth away our sins iniquity the bread wine the body and blood of Christ shed and giuen for mans redemption But for-so-much as we are baptized infants when wee know not what wee do and are men old or young when wee partake of the other also that the very Bread and VVine exhibited to these senses and handes of all communicants do sacramentally represent the body and bloud of our Lord the Ministers deliuerie of them Gods very offering his fauours in Christ vnto vs the bread broken his body dead the wine his bloud shed vpon the Crosse lastly the distributing both of the wine and bread Christ his benefits and Gods blessings imparted and communicated vnto all Communicants whereof they be remembred so oft as they receiue in all places of the world and to the worlds end what Christian seeing and seriously considering these and the like things but will bee excited with all due submission and religious reuerence to come vnto the participation and receiuing of such celestiall fauours Not because it is either vnlawfull or vndecent with like reuerence to receiue the other Sacrament but for that partly our tendernesse is such because of our yeares that wee cannot and partly the necessity is not so vrgent that wee need to Kneele But doubtlesse were wee of good yeares and did know what we go about when we are to be baptized as we know what we do such is my perswasion and ought to be of vs all of all persons communicating at the Supper when wee come to the table of the Lord doubtlesse the Lord would not be displeased did we Kneele at Baptisme then our assured perswasion is that hee is not offended with our Kneeling at his Supper Therefore whereas all worthy communicants euen in duty and conscience are bound with this signe of reuerence to receiue these holy and heauenly mysteries and yet many persons in one respect or other will not bend nor bow their Knees but in no case Kneele if authoritie doe force such stubborne and wilfull persons to doe that necessarily which of themselues voluntarily they should performe neither doth authoritie transgresse their bounds nor do they sinne that obay their command And so let this satisfie those simple and superstitious persons and be an answer vnto you THE CONCLVSION S. TO conclude if kneeling in the very act of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion be an institution of man P. It is no meere institution of man S. If it be the taking of Gods name in vaine when it is without all respect of reuerence P. It is done with all respect of reuerence in the Church of England S. If God be not honored thereby except it be according to his will P. It is according to his will and so God thereby is honored S. If it swarue from the example of Christ his sitting and therefore deserueth no praise P. Though it swarue from the example yet is it against no commandement of Christ. And therefore not to bee condemned S. If it bee a prouoking sinne to reiect the exemplary sitting of Christ whereby wee show our selues to bee in the Communion with Christ and the reformed churches and to retaine Kneeling which for bread-worship ought to bee banished and whereby wee seeme to bee in communion with Antichrist and his synagogue P. Wee reiect not the exemplary sitting of Christ neither should we sit haue we by it the more fellowship with Christ and his Churches reformed whose fellowship which without sitting praised be God we doe enioy is in partaking of spirituall graces in obeying and doing his precepts and in professing of Christian religion iointly and with one heart and minde neither by our Kneeling haue we either the lesse with Christ his true churches or the more familiaritie and communion with Antichrist and his synagogue In which respect neither is Kneeling to be banished out of our churches because of the Papists bread-worship nor do the kneelers by kneeling commit a prouoking sinne yea any sinne at all S. If it obscureth that reioycing familiaritie in and with Christ which the Lords supper signifieth P. At the Lords supper Kneeling obscureth not but furthereth our familiaritie and ioy with Christ and Christians S. If the argument from Christ his example be made the stronger in that he sat of purpose P. Christ his purposely sitting whatsoeuer it was maketh not our purposely kneeling to be vnlawfull S. If the lawfulnesse of choosing a fitter time than the euening cannot iustifie our reiecting Christ his exemplary sitting P. By the same authority Gods people may leaue the example of Christ in sitting if hee did sit whereby they left his example of ministring the supper in the euening vnlesse by some order and decree he had enioyned his example for our necessary imitation S. If the bittes of prayer ioyned with the words of institution do make Kneeling the more sinfull P. Euery bit yea and euery crumme of that prayer vsed with sound faith and deuotion doth make our kneeling the more acceptable vnto God S. If kneeling bee not as indifferent as standing nor best beseeming the holy communion and the King must appoint nothing but by the hand of the Lord. P. It is as indifferent and more conuenient than standing and in our iudgment and perswasion best beseeming the communion and appointed euen by God himselfe by the hand of our Lord the King S. If wee ought to abhorre Kneeling as wee abhorre Images transubstantiation and consubstantiation P. Kneeling is a pure ceremonie of our Church voide of all superstition and Idolatry whatsoeuer and our kneelers the most sincere worshippers of God and neither themselues nor their Kneeling to be abhorred S. If to scandalize bee greeuouslie to sinne and kneeling be a showe of the greatest euils and withall the greatest scandall P. There is no scandall giuen by kneeling neither is kneeling euill nor show of euill much lesse of the greatest euils or the greatest scandall S. If it bee a begging of the question to affirme kneeling to be indifferent and the Kings commandement so called both rather encrease than lesson scandall by kneeling P. Kneeling hath not as yet beene showne to bee of it selfe vnlawfull