Selected quad for the lemma: water_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
water_n	body_n	bread_n	wine_n	10,358	5	8.3741	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41431	The sum of a conference had between two divines of the Church of England and two Catholic lay-gentlemen at the request and for the satisfaction of three persons of quality, August 8, 1671.	Gooden, Peter, d. 1695.	1687 (1687)	Wing G1099; ESTC R34918	23,435	41

is Bread is also a Contradiction but where is that Proposition in Scripture or what Catholic in the World holds it We say that which was Bread ceases to be Bread and becomes the Body of Christ which is no more a Contradiction than to say that which was Water ceases to be Water and becomes Wine Drs. That Text you build your Faith upon This is my Body implies a Contradiction for it must signifie This Bread is my Body which is as much a Contradiction as Christ is a Vine or Christ is Bread which you have acknowledg'd already for a Contradiction or else it must be an identical enuntiation and signifie This my Body is my Body Cath. This Bread is my Body is a Contradiction but cannot be meant in the Text for in all Languages but English where the word which signifies this is alter'd according to the different Gender the Antecedent is of to which this word should relate it is always put in the Neuter Gender hoc in Latin and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greek which it could not be if it were to agree with Bread or have relation to it that being always Masculin as panis in Latin and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greek therefore to say this Bread in the Latin or Greek Language would be false Grammer and English I suppose has no reason to govern the other Languages but they it they being more and old against one and new Nor need it be This Body is my Body the Particle this is a Pronoun demonstrative signifying only some exterior Object undetermind'd as to its Nature or Name without some other additional Word as this is a Horse this is a Hat are I hope proper Speeches and therefore no Identical Enuntiations This only supposes an Object existing and expos'd to Sense and determin'd by the following word Hat or Horse of what Nature and Quality it is Besides This is my Body is an Efficient Proposition and is the cause of the change which is not wrought till the Proposition be compleated and therefore this is not determin'd till the whole be pronounc'd Drs. It is impossible it should be taken in your sense for Transubstantiation cannot be without a Miracle and no Miracle can be without appearing so to Sense Nay it would destroy all possibility of judging of any other Miracle they being not to be discern'd but by Sense which cannot be rely'd upon if it may be deceiv'd in this Cath. A Miracle may be and yet not appear to Sense to be so yet ought to be believ'd For the hypostatical Union was never discern'd by Sense yet is believ'd a true Miracle so that your first Proposition is false To your second I pray say whether it be possible for God to make a thing appear to Sense to be what it is not Then supposing it possible may not God discover to Man that he has made a thing to appear one thing and to be another as well as he has discover'd that the Divinity was united to Christs Humanity tho' no such thing appear'd If he may and do's ought I to believe Gods Word against my own Senses or my Senses against Gods Word Notwithstanding this my Senses shall judge of a Miracle at all times unless when God assures me upon his Word that his Omnipotency has interpos'd between my Senses and their Natural Object Drs. But we will shew you by the Fathers and not of the first 300 years but since that your Doctrin was not held neither in the Greek nor Latin Church Cath. We do expect you should shew us by the Scripture and Fathers of all Ages and do not care to be complemented or spar'd as to the first 300 years if you have any Authority from those times let us see them and very clearly that your contrary Doctrin was held else you cannot be justified or excused from Schism in your separation Dr. It is sufficient to shew against you that your Doctrin has not had that constant Succession you boast of And that I will do by producing Instances plain and clear that your Doctrin was not maintain'd in one certain Age since Christ Cath. Tho' that can never justifie your separation or make your Communion safe for if it were not safe to stay in the Roman Communion because a Doctrin believ'd by them was in one Age since Christs time not believ'd it can never be safe to abide in yours where many Doctrins are now believ'd which you acknowledge were not believ'd by the true Church for many Hundred years together Yet let us hear your proofs Dr. I will shew you a Homily us'd in the Saxon Church from which you shall see how that Church and your Augustin agree in this Doctrin Cath. At least 't is some kindness to grant Augustin to be ours who Converted England above 1000 years ago Narr Truly the Homily we did never see before nor never heard of it nor do we know what credit it bears nor can I remember the words exactly but in the first place the Doctor quoted for he produc'd two the sense was that the Bread and Wine which the Priest Consecrated at Mass was turn'd into the True Body and Blood of Christ which Text we pray'd the Doctor to read in English which he did and after a little stumble at the word Missam he told us he car'd not tho' he render'd it Mass which he did This very Quotation we urg'd against him but he told us this must be explain'd by another in which he brought us the same or like words again concerning the change but at the end of the Sentence were these words in a distinct remarkable Character not Corporally but Spiritually Where or by whom this Book was Printed we could not learn or what Authority it was of but it might very well be Authentick for all that distinction it being frequently us'd by Modern Catholics who are not deny'd to hold the Doctrin of Transubstantiation They commonly say that it is not chang'd Corporally taking Corporally to signifie carnally as the Capharnaits understood our Blessed Lord when he spoke of this Mystery but Spiritually taking that to signfie as St. Paul uses the word Spiritual speaking of the Resurrection where he says it is sown a natural Body it rises a Spiritual Body there is a natural Body and there is a Spiritual Body Now if this way of speaking be frequently us'd by those who are notwithstanding such an expression confess'd to hold Transubstantiation why must it signifie more evidently the contrary Doctrin in this Author than it do's in others especially when this Author delivers the Roman Doctrin in this point in his other expressions as evidently and plainly as can be and cites the Mass as the Doctor confesses But he stood not much upon this Question but laid his whole stress upon two others Dr. I will prove now evidently that your Doctrin was contradicted in the fifth Age both by the Greek and Latin Church nay by a Pope of Rome

is eaten for it were impossible to think that the Father could be in that doubt and trouble which he expresses about the Question whether Christ were to be Ador'd or no He is concern'd about the Footstool which he endeavors to make so plain that he repeats the same thing over and over again and tells his fear of Adoring or not Adoring At length he says By Footstool because Earth is the Footstool is meant Christs Flesh in which Flesh he walk'd here which very Flesh he gave to us to Eat which very Flesh no Man Eats but he first Adores what The Flesh of Christ sure And if that Flesh he gave to Eat be the same Flesh he took from our Blessed Lady and in which he walk'd as the Father says here most absolutely then surely Flesh to be Eaten is as much the Object of Adoration as that he took and walked in which I hope the Doctor will not deny but was to be Ador'd So that now says the Father having just before spoken of the Flesh which Christ gave us to Eat and which no Man Eats without first Adoring I have found out how such a Footstool ought to be Ador'd and that we do not only not sin by Adoring but we sin by not Adoring such a Footstool to wit Flesh which was given us to Eat Besides the Adoration the Doctor speaks of may be given at any time and before any thing as well as Bread and Wine in the Sacrament for if it be only the person of Christ sitting in Heaven which ought to be Ador'd and is Ador'd when we are put in mind of him by such Instruments we might as well fall down and Adore the Person of Christ in Heaven when we see an Image of him because that puts us in mind of him which yet the above named Doctor says is Idolatry or take a piece of common Bread at ones House remembring by it what Christ once did with Bread fall down and Adore before that Bread. Nar. St. Ambrose who was somewhat Elder than St. Austin and his Master has the Plainest Quotations to prove this Point that can possibly be in his Book De iis qui Mysteriis initiantur Cap. 9. in his fourth Book de Sacramentis Cap. 4. Cap. 5. which Books we desir'd but the Doctor being in his own House tho' he confess'd he had the Books he might chuse whether he would let us have them or no. And indeed for one reason or other we had them not nor St. Chrysostom of the same Age out of whom we would have shewn only his 83 d. Homily upon the 26th of St. Matthew and his Sermon of the Eucharist in Encoeniis to prove our Doctrin we would have shewn very many places from that Father but having not these Books nor others we ask'd for we were forc'd to quote some places without Book as one out of St. Gregory Nyss Orat. Catechet Cap. 37. Verbo Dei Sanctificatum panem in Dei Verbi Corpus credo transmutari c. hoc autem fit virtute Benedictionis in illud transelement at â eorum quae apparent naturâ I do believe the Bread Sanctified by the Word of God to be chang'd into the Body of God the Word c. but this is done by the Power of Consecration or blessing the nature of those things which appear being Transelementated into it St. Cyril of Jerusalem we had out of whom we desir'd the Doctor to read these following words in English Cum igitur Christus ipse sic affirmet at que dicat de pane HOC EST CORPUS MEUM Quis deinceps audeat dubitare Ac eodem quoque confirmante ac dicente HIC EST SANGUIS MEUS quis inquam dubitet dicat non esse illius sanguinem Aquam aliquando mutavit in Vinum quod est Sanguini propinquum in Cana Galileae sola voluntate non erit dignus cui credamus quod Vinum in Sanguinem transmutasset Si enim ad nuptias Corporeas invitatus stupendum miraculum operatus est non multo magis Corpus Sanguinem suum Filiis sponsae dedisse illum confitebimur Quare cum omni certitudine Corpus Sanguinem Christi sumamus Nam sub specie Panis datur tibi Corpus sub specie Vini datur Sanguis ut sumpto Corpore Sanguine Christi efficiaris ei comparticeps Corporis Sanguinis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christopheri erimus hoc est Christum ferentes cum ejus Corpus Sanguinem in membra nostra receperimus atque ita ut beatus Petrus dicit Divinae Naturae consortes efficiemur c. Hoc sciens pro certissimo habens Panem hunc qui videtur à nobis non esse Panem etiamsi gustus Panem esse sentiat sed esse Corpus Christi Vinum quod à nobis conspicitur tametsi sensui gustus Vinum esse videatur non tamen Vinum sed Sanguinem esse Christi Sir if you please I will spare you the trouble and render them my self and pray tell the Company when I wrong the Text The English then of these words is thus When therefore Christ himself affirms and says of Bread THIS IS MY BODY Who afterwards will dare to doubt And the same also confirming and saying THIS IS MY BLOOD Who I say may doubt and say That it is not his Blood He once chang'd Water into Wine which is next to Blood in Cana of Galilee by his only Will and shall he not be worthy that we believe him that he chang'd Wine into his Blood For if being invited to a corporal Wedding he wrought so wonderful a Miracle shall we not much more confess that he gave his Body and Blood to the Sons of his own Spouse Wherefore let us take the Body and Blood of Christ with all assurance for under the Species or Appearance of Bread the Body is given thee and under the Species of Wine the Blood is given so that the Body and Blood of Christ being taken thou art made to him a Fellow-partaker of his Body and Blood. We are made Christophori i. e. Bearers of Christ when we take his Body and Blood into our Members So as blessed St. Peter says We are made Partakers of the Divine Nature c. Knowing this and holding it for most certain that the Bread which we see is not Bread though our Tast judges it to be Bread but the Body of Christ And the Wine which we see though it may appear Wine to our Sense of Tasting yet is not Wine but the Blood of Christ Doctor Is this plain English and is the Father faithfully Translated Drs. We do not deny but the Fathers now cited have the Words quoted in their Writings nor do we deny but that they are well enough English'd but we do confess all they say for we of the Church of England do own and acknowledge a very great Change and Alteration in the Sacrament and do not deny but that the Fathers