Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	woman_n	world_n	year_n	94	3	4.4991	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A11532	A conference betvvixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth, and publike worship of god established nowe in England. Gathered by him whose hearts desire is, that all may come to the knowledge of God, and be saued.; Conference betwixt a mother a devout recusant, and her sonne a zealous protestant.	Savage, Francis, d. 1638.	1600 (1600)	STC 21781; ESTC S106433	62,438	140

by integritie of lawe In a worde Aliter non persequimur vos nisi quemadmodum veritas persequitur falsit atem We persecute you no otherwise but as trueth persecuteth falshood namely to saluation not to destruction M. Surely your answeres I must confesse are farre otherwise then either I looked for at your handes or thought coulde haue beene giuen in your cause Wherefore I say againe we on our side are greatly wronged when we are forbidden to read your bookes or to conferre with you But yet if some learned man were here to dispute with you happely he would contrarie this which to me seemeth plaine S. Surely mother euen this also which you name is a good point be touched For indeede it is an vsuall shift of men and women thus giuen to say I cannot answere you but if such and such were here they would and would God we might haue some disputation then should wee see which part were better Yea such bragges are made by some learned of your side to blinde the eyes of the people as if either there neuer had bin triall of their strēgth this waie or as if they alwaies had had the vpper hand in disputation when God knoweth and the world can witnesse herein their weaknes and great foiles to the glorie of God and victory of his truth in the hearts of many thousandes both men and vvomen For confirmation whereof let me remember you of the disputation at Berne in Heluetia in king Henry the 8 his daies which is thus published in Chronicle to the worldes knowledge There was in ☞ the yeare of our Lord 1527. in the moneth of december order taken by the senate and people of Berne whose power amongst all the Switzers chiefly excelleth in regard of the varience of religion that then was and still more more increaseth that there should be a publike disputation in that cittie and to that ende they sent forth writings of the same and called thither all the Bishops bordering neere about them as the bishop of Constance Basil Sedune Lausanna warning them to come both themselues and to bring with them their devines or els to loose all such professions as they had lying within the boundes of their precinct They also appointed learned men amōgst them preachers of the Gospell to be readie to dispute against all commers in defence of their doctrine prescribing the disputation to be decided onely by the authority of the olde and newe testament They graunted safe conduct to all that would come They appointed likewise that all things should be done modestly without iniurie and brawling words and that euery one should haue leaue to speake his minde freely and with such deliberation that euerie mans saying might be receiued by the notarie and penned And to the end men might come thither better prepared they caused their ministers to publish such questions as they should dispute on before hand in writing that euery man might studie to say what he coulde against them and they were tenne in number 1. The true Church riseth out of Gods worde continueth in the same and heareth the voice of none other 2. The true Church maketh no lawes without the word 3. Traditions binde not but as firre as they are agreeable to the written word 4. Christ onely hath satisfied for the sinnes of the vvorld and therefore if any make any other waie the same denieth Christ 5. The body and blood of Christ cannot be receiued really and corporally by the testimony of scripture 6. There is no place of purging after this ☞ life and therfore all dirges prayers ceremonies lampes tapers c. bestowed for the dead profitte nothing 7. Christ onely is to be prayed vnto as the mediator of mankind to God the father 8. The masse is wicked and derogatory to Christs sacrifice offered for vs. 9. Images ought not to be set vp in Churches and praied vnto 10. Marriage is allowed by God vnto all degrees These things I say thus agreed vpon before hand were sent abroad to al places and the day appointed the 7 of Ianuarie for the disputation to beginne At which day nowe see the courage of Catholicks not one of the bishops before named came neuerthelesse the citty of Basil Zuricke Schasuse Abbacelle Sangallium Mallusia with the neighbours of Rhetia also they of Strawsburge Vlmes Ausburge Lindaue Constance and Isue sent thither their Embassadours The doctors of Berne began the disputation whereat were present Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucerus Capito and Blaurecus with others One the other side of them that were opponents the chiefe was Conzadus and Tregerus a frier Augustine who no way able to prooue his cause out of the olde and newe testament as was appointed and decreed at first desired that he might alledge Doctours which the moderators refusing to graunt because it was contrarie to the order appointed he to his great shame and to the preiudice of all his side departed out of the place and would dispute no more The disputation endured 19. daies and in the ende by the greater part of that assembly the protestantes hadde the victorie and the Papists the foile And it was agreed vpon that the themes before mentioned were all true and agreeable to Gods holy worde that they shoulde be ratified and proclaimed according to promise and that masses altars images c. should in all places be abolished So they were at Constance Berne and Geneva they causing the day and yeare of this reformation from poperie to Christianity to be ingrauen in a pillar with golden letters for a perpetuall memorie to all posteritie This was anno 1528. After the rumour of this disputation Reformation followed at Strawsburge Basil and other places to Gods great glorie the comfort of his people the true witnessing to the world what strength Romish Catholicks haue in disputation when they are desired to keepe to the scriptures which onely is the ground of trueth and conscience I may not repeat others at large but blessed be God the like triall of them was made and the like foile giuen them at Wittenberge and Ravensburge at Ausburge at Spire at Wormes at Pois and here in England at London at Cambridge at Oxford and in private houses and consistories of Bishops often That notable seruice of Beza at Pois gone through the worlde when the Cardinall of Lotharinge wished that either Beza had beene dumme or they his auditours and aduersaries dea●e will witnesse for euer what pith popish falshood hath had against Christian trueth held and taught by protestants whē they came to disputation Reade our owne Chronicles of the cowardly refusall of the popish Bishops to dispute at the happy entrance of her Maiesty to the Crowne howe also they behaued thēselues in Queene Maries time when one of them said vve had the word but they had the sword c. Indeede indeede the sword and the fire are their best arguments and in blood they build whatsoeuer they build Neuer neuer therefore let them

indeed and therfore to be receiued helde and defended though for a thousand yeares the Lord hath made it a straunger in this or that place to punish thereby the sinnes of a kingdome or countrie Vetus consuetudo non praeiudicat veritate Olde custome doth not preiudice the truth saith good S. Austen Nec dici debet ●ug De Ciuit. l. 10. c. 32. quare modò quare sero quoniam mittentis consilium non est humauo ingenio penitrabile Neither may we say why commeth it now Good Mother marke it why commeth it so late for the councell of God that sent it is vnsearchable to the wisdome of man Thus speake the Papists in these daies where was your religion before Luther where hath it beene this many hundred yeares had God no Church till now c. But S. Austen telleth thē they speake not well they ought not to say so for Gods councell is known to himselfe and we cannot reach vnto it Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine nec quo die sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit quodenim verum est serum non est The autority of religion must be weighed by god not by time we must cōsider not vpon what day but vvhat thing we began to worship the thing that is true is neuer to late The Iesuits tell vs wonders of their conuerting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith and woulde they like that those nations should say where hath this religion beene all this while woulde they not say as Arnobius saith that which is true should euer be vvelcome Arnob. co●● Gen●● howe long soeuer the time of darkenesse hath beene Why doe they then teach any to stand vpon such questions against the Gospel nowe preached Our Sauiour saith If I speake the trueth vvhy doe you not beleeue me and that is the good issue indeede to consider the matter whether it bee true or no which is euer found by the weight of the sanctuary the word of God Certenly we teach no false religion but offer the trueth for issue praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned it may be entertained and so much the more hartely by how much shee hath beene long from home For so wee deale with our friendes and doe not vtterly denie them if they haue beene long away Certenly we haue planted no newe religion but renewed the olde I meane in respect of certen pointes corrupted by your men that was vndoubtedly founded and vsed by the Apostles of Christ and other holy fathers in the primitiue Church of this long late time by meane of the multitude of Romish traditions and vanities hath beene drowned with traditions fantasies though painted with colour of antiquity and continuance yet are new vaine and naught M. I cannot deny sonne but it is true that you say there may be vetustas erroris an antiquity of error for you know I haue some latin not yet forgotten and ●here may be a late beginning of truth in some particular place but it followeth not that either the error is truth because it hath bin continued long or the trueth error because in that place it was receiued but lately I like not this kind of reasoning whosoeuer vseth it for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience S. Good mother I know well you vnderstand the latin tongue and therefore haue I repeated many testimonies in latin to giue you your due praise this ability being not ordinary in women And what you say I thanke God hartely for praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason and so say Popery hath bin in england so long therefore it is truth and the gospel was reuiued but of late therfore it is error heresy apostasie and what not Surely mother you haue touched the quick such arguing is loose and staieth not the cō●cience it followeth not but is very childish Men may be called at the eleuenth houre yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first and as fully shall be regarded if they come then The Lord may doe with his own as pleaseth him M. Yea but what say you sonne to our baptisme for that is a matter of moment we were all baptised into the Romish faith and vowed at the font to continue in the same Howe then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man In what fait● baptized S. Deare mother here first I wish a lattise window in my breast that the ioy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent I hope profitable might appeare vnto you for they lead vs as it were by the hand to the consideration of those things which may fully satisfie any Christian heart And who can tell what the Lord of mercy wil doe who willeth not he death of a sinner but would haue al mē saued come to the knowledge of the trueth The Lord Iesus Christ who is the true sheapheard samp bishop of our soules giue a blessing to our conference Then to your doubt so well and to so good purpose moued I answere thus God forbid that either all or any of vs had beene baptized into the Romish faith You are deceiued and those cursed charmers that whisper such things to Gods people and cast such stumbling blockes before their eyes to turne thē out of the right way shall answer the Lord for so doing You are taught and told that all those who were baptised in those times when popery was receiued by the realme of England were baptized into the Romish faith which is not so wherein appeared the great mercy and goodnesse of God in preseruing the Sacrament of entrance and admission into Gods Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it euen in the greatest darkenesse and authority of popery This therefore I pray you vnderstand that we were all baptized in the time of popery into the same faith which nowe wee hold and baptize children in that is into the faith of the 12. articles for thus said the priest then in latin Credis in deum patrem c. as the minister doth now in English Doest thou beleeve in God the father almighty c. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child Credo as we doe nowe answere All this I stedfastly beleeve Then said the priest in latin againe as the minister do●h nowe in english wil● thou be baptized in this faith they answered then for the childe volo we nowe that is my desire Then tooke the p●●●st water and saide in la●in Ego baptizo te in nomine ●atris c. we say the same in eng●●● I baptize thee in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost And this beeing the substance of baptisme see howe the Lord preserued it euen then pure and holy and all one was baptisme then

this father that I named vnto you saith they wrot that which they deliuered and they wrote it by the will of God as not trusting tradition vnwritten and they wrote it to be for euer the ground of our faith noting that vnwritten tradition may not be the ground because it is vncertain and full of imperfection as I could shewe you if we were to speake of that matter Therefore seeing this which is written is certainly and assuredly that which they deliuered and we hold nothing but that which is agreeable to this which is written you see it is most plaine that we holde nothing but that which the Apostles themselues deliuered and so our faith the old faith which was from the beginning and first M. Surely if you holde nothing but that which is written it is certaine that that which was written was deliuered by the Apostles and so it followeth that you hold nothing but that which was deliuered by the Apostles and Prophets and therfore your faith olde indeede and not to be reiected And for tradition although we may be told that this and that was deliuered by the Apostles and their successours and so by them to theirs againe to this day yet I must needes confesse that is not so manifest and plaine as which is written neither doth it yeeld such contentment to my conscience But I can not tell what to say it is a sure and steadfast way to trust to that which is written rather then to that which is reported and yet I am loath ●o offend you shal giue me leaue to pause think more of it S. Yea deere Mother and with the hart of a dutifull child I say the father of our Lord Iesus Christ lighten the eyes of your vnderstanding in all things to the glory of his great name and your eternall comfort but be you assured in this that we hold nothing as needfull to our saluation but that which is written in expresse wordes or by sure and plaine collection and therefore make the consequence as the Lord shall direct you M. Howe then commeth it to passe that your religion is still called new new S. Even as I told you before it is one of Satans trickes to discredit trueth and hath in all times beene vsed of him But as then your selfe collected by that which I alleadged that it is not safe to be lead by tearmes and names without due considering howe iustly and truely they are giuen so I beseech you do here again and be not mooued with the name for questionles there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the religion of God then to accuse it of noueltie as a matter lately found out For as there can be no change in God himselfe so ought there be no change in his religion Yet still I say Satan hath taken this course euen from the beginning to call trueth newe which indeede is not onely of greatest antiquitie but also frō euerlasting That vngratious blood thirstie Haman when he sought to procure the king Assuerus his dspleasure against the Iewes vsed this slaunder against them of noveltie telling the king that he had in his domion a kinde of people that vsed certaine newe lawes of their own c. Act. 1● Whē Paul also began first to preach and expound the Gospel at Athens he was called a tidings-bringer of new Gods that is of a newe religion for said the Athenians may we not knowe of thee what newe doctrine this is Origen again telleth vs of Celsus that when he wrot of set purpofe against Christ to the ende he might scornefully scosse at the gospell he accused it of noueltie and said Orig. con●a C●lsum vvhat hath God after so many ages now at last bethought himselfe whose vile blasphemies that auncient father in his bookes written against him answereth Eusebius also saith that the Christian religion from the beginnnig for verie spite was called new and straunge Euseb l. 1 c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sentence was giuen of condemnation that S. Audrewe should be crucified for teaching and enterprising a newe sect and taking away the religion of their Gods Shall we then bee mooued with this tearme and carried away with this name No God forbid These examples are a faire warning for vs to take heede of that lightnesse and rashnesse Let the deuil rage against trueth with what names God shall suffer him and his members yet this shall euer stand that the doctrine of the Church is elder then any Idolatrie or superstition of the Gentiles that the doctrine of the Gospell was preached in Paradise by God himselfe saying The seede of the vvoman shall bruise the serpent● head That the writings of Moses are elder the any writings of the Gentiles the doctrine of the Apostles elder then Popery or any other heresie and that we at this day hold nothing as I haue often said but what appeareth out of the Apostles owne writings alowed both by vs and our aduersaries to be their vvritinges to be their ovvne doctrine deliuered to the Church to be beleeued and for men and vvomen to be saued by M. Surely I see still it is not safe to be carried away vvith names and to beleeue all to be nevve vvhich is called so or all olde vvhich is named olde for so vve may be deceiued But yet in shevve of the vvorlde ours hath had a longer continuance then yours S. I must needes here once againe remember you what I meane by your religion to wit those pointes of doctrine onely wherein you differ from vs. And then I answer first that your religion euen in shewe of the world hath not had a longer continuance then ours especially for the principall points whereon wee stand as namely 1. the articles of our Creede which is a briefe and summe of catholik faith as Athanasius plainely witnesseth Symbol Athanas Haee est fides Catholica and the Councell of Trent confesseth 1. the acknowledgment of gods diuine law and the worshipping of god according to that law 3. the doctrine of repentance frō dead workes and of faith in Iesus Christ for the remission of sinne 4 the doctrine of the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords supper which are the fundamentall points of out faith and religion and the rocke whereon we build our soules and Church and without controuersie of greater antiquity then those points of doctrine which we call popery Besides I answer although your religion in shew of the world were more ancient then ours yet that ought to be no disparagement to ours or aduācemēt to yours for god afflicteth his church as pleaseth him maketh vs see that it is like the moone whervnto it is compared now growing now ful now waining we may not mesure truth by worldly coūtenāce but by that rule which neuer faileth the word of God and if our faith be that which there is taught warrāted the you haue heard which is the old true Catholik faith