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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88947	A modest & brotherly ansvver to Mr. Charles Herle his book, against the independency of churches. Wherein his foure arguments for the government of synods over particular congregations, are friendly examined, and clearly answered. Together, with Christian and loving animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said booke. All tending to declare the true use of synods, and the power of congregationall churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne officers, and censuring their offendors. By Richard Mather teacher of the Church at Dorchester; and William Tompson pastor of the Church at Braintree in New-England. Sent from thence after the assembly of elders were dissolved that last met at Cambridg to debate matters about church-government.	Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.; Tompson, William, d. 1666.	1644 (1644)	Wing M1274; Thomason E37_19; ESTC R16954	50,642	62

2. and bid them chuse out seven men fitly qualified for the office ver. 3. and accordingly the saying pleased the whole multitude and they chose seven that are there named ver. 5. and having so done they set them before the Apostles that they might ordain them by laying their hands on them ver. 6. And in Act. 14. 23. it is said that the Apostles ordained Elders by election or lifting up of hands for so doth {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} signifie in every Church Obj. The word signifieth nothing else but laying on of hands which was the act of the Apostles alone and not of the people Ans. The word is never used for laying on of hands in all the Scripture but the word used for that is {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} betwixt which and this word {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} there is as much difference as betweene holding up and laying down If Luke the writer of the Acts had intended the laying on of hands it had been easie for him to have used the other word which is proper to expresse such an action and frequently used by himself in that sence in this book Act. 6. 6. and 8. 17. and 9. 17. Object But be it laying on or lifting up that was not the act of the people but of the Apostle alone Answ. Of the Apostles it is confessed For who doubts but as they moderated the whole action and laid on their hands in ordination so they might also concurre in the election by lifting up their hands But it will not follow that therefore that lifting up of hands was performed by the Apostles onely for elsewhere the word is used to expresse the act of the whole Church and is translated was chosen 2 Cor. 8. 19. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} was chosen of the Churches Even as one place mentioneth a gift that was in Timothy by the laying on of Pauls hands 2 Tim. 1. 6. which must not be understood of Pauls hands alone because another Scripture mentioneth the hands of the Presbytery 1. Tim. 4. 14. By all which it appeareth that in the Apostles times the people had one hand in the election of their Officers And if so then it ought to be so also in these dayes for the practice of the Apostles recorded in the Acts is presidentiall for all Churches in all ages in those things that were not of particular reason and respect which for the peoples chusing their Ministers cannot be said Besides when the Apostles were alive the Churches were in the greatest purity and therefore we may more safely tread in their steps And further if this practice had not been according to the mind of Christ we may be sure the Apostles would not have countenanced it nor have directed the Churches to have used it but would have left and prescribed some other course to be observed in the choyce of Ministers which we see they have not done Secondly if Ministers must not be chosen by the Church then either they must be called of God immediatly or Ministers without any calling at all or be chosen and appointed by some other men But not the first because such immediate calling is now ceased as being peculiar to the extraordinary function of Apostles Prophets c. which in these times are not to be expected Nor the second because that is expresly against the Scripture which saith No man must take this honour to himselfe but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. And therefore they that ran when God sent them not are many times and very sharply reproved in the Prophets Jer. 23. 21. Nor the third For 1. God hath not given any such authority to other men that are not of the Church to appoint Officers to the Church Nor 2. may some of the Church arrogate this power onely to themselves excluding the rest because that which concerneth all as this matter doth ought to have approbation of all unlesse it might appeare that God had committed the thing only to some which for the chusing of Officers cannot be said 3. It is sutable to right reason that it should be thus For 1. by this means the liberty of the Church is not infringed by thrusting officers uppon them without their consent and whom they never chose Also 2. this is a strong engagement to the people to yeeld due reverence subjection and obedience to their Ministers because they are the men whom themselves have chosen whereas one thrust upon them against their wills is not like to be much beloved but rather contemned and hated and how then shall they profit by his doctrine Finally the people have a right originally to chuse their civil officers as is also practised at this day in many places And when the Lord brings a sword upon a land the Scripture saith expresly that the people of the land may take a man of their coasts and set him for their watchman Ezek. 33. 2. And if so then they may well have liberty to chuse such as must be watchmen for their souls for it is much more unreasonable that there should be thrust upon them such watchmen and officers upon whom the salvation or damnation of their souls doth depend then such as upon whom dependeth no more but their wealth or commodity of this life And this shall suffice for answer to your fourth and last Argument There are in your book two other general heads which are somthing insisted on the one about clearing such objections as are not reducible to your former arguments the other of appealing to the judgement of the adverse party In both which thopugh we might observe sundry things which were worth your second review yet in as much as our intentions were chiefly to consider the weight of your arguments but not to undertake the defence of every objection which you propose and considering withall that those considerations from the order unity peace and strength of government with the rest are not intended by you as we suppose as convincing but onely as probable grounds against that way which you deale against therfore for these and some other reasons having spoken to that which we conceive to be the main substance of your book we will here for this time surcease praying the Father of mercies for Christ Jesus his sake to poure out his rich blessings of truth peace upon our deare native countrey and to guide all his servants there here by a Spirit of truth into all truth And to give us such hearts and grace that we may follow the truth in love till Antichristianisme be utterly rooted out and Sion be restored especially in England to her former beiuty and new Jerusalem come down from heaven as a Bride adorned for her Husband the Lord Jesus Christ To whom be all glory and praise for ever and ever Amen FINIS

A Modest Brotherly ANSVVER To Mr. CHARLES HERLE his Book against the Independency of Churches Wherein his foure Arguments for the Government of Synods over particular Congregations are friendly Examined and clearly Answered Together with Christian and Loving Animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said BOOKE All tending to declare the true use of Synods and the power of Congregationall Churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne Officers and censuring their Offendors By RICHARD MATHER Teacher of the Church at Dorchester And WILLIAM TOMPSON Pastor of the Church at Braintree in NEW-ENGLAND Sent from thence after the Assembly of Elders were dissolved that last met at Cambridg to debate matters about Church-government London Printed for Henry Overton in Popes-head alley 1644. Reverend and Deare Sir THe right forme of Church Government being more searched into of late time then formerly and your self amongst others having written for the governing power or jurisdiction of Synods over particular Churches We therfore knowing our selves bound as well as others to try all things and hold fast that which is good have considered as the Lord hath holpen us those Arguments of yours which are contained in your Book against the Indepency of Churches and not being satisfied therewith your Book being published in Print we have therfore thought meet in like fort to publish our Answer and in that way to shew unto your self and others what yet hinders us that we do not think your Arguments to be convincing In which attempt we have bin the more encouraged by your profession which we dare not but believe that in what you have written you have aimed at verity and not at victory wherof we are the rather perswaded because we do perceive your whole discourse to be carried along without passion and bitternesse in a spirit of meeknesse and love which also we are willing to acknowledge before all men to your just commendation and the glory of that grace of God that gives you such an heart And it is our hope that sith you professe to aim at the truth and do dispute with such a spirit as if you meant so indeed that therfore it will not be unacceptable to you if any weaknesse be discovered in those grounds wheron you build this perswasion that in the present Question the truth doth stand on your side And as your Book doth breathe forth a spirit of meeknesse ingenuity and love so we hope you will find that we have aimed at the like in our Answer which as we have written and now published it for the truths sake and for the help of those that cannot attaine unto larger and more learned Treatises about this Subject So in speciall manner in love to your self and our deare Country men friends as in other places of Lancashire so in your Parish of Winwick wherin one of us was born and the other was for sundry Years together an unworthy Minister of the Gospel of Christ Accept therfore we doe beseech you this brotherly labour of ours which here we send you divided into these few Chapters We are also willing upon this occasion to testifie our thankfullnes for that loving respect which we found from you when we lived together in that Country when you were pleased to own us in our sad times The Father of mercies be with you and with all those that love the truth in sincerity and blesse that Reverend and Grave Assembly wherof we hear your self are a Member that by their wise and holy indeavours the truth may be cleared and all corruptions removed in the Doctrine Worship and Church Government in ENGLAND to his praise and glory and the comfort of all those who unfainedly desire that the Crowne of Christ Iesus and the Scepter of the Son of God may be gloriously advanced over all which is the prayer of Your Loving Brethren RICHARD MATHER and WILLIAM TOMPSON A Modest and Brotherly ANSWER TO Mr. CHARLES HERLE His BOOKE against the Independency of CHURCHES CHAPT. I. Containing Observations upon sundry passages in your stating the Question THE Independants say you deny to a Synod as the name of a Church so all manner of power of jurisdiction either to determine or any way oblige such as they shall any way represent pag. 2. Unlesse it could be proved that in Scripture the name of a Church is given to a Synod we are not to blamed though we give not a Synod that name sith we are commanded to hold fast the paterne of the wholsome words of Scripture as sufficient 2 Tim. 1. 13. though for this we will not contend But for power to determine viz. dogmatically or by way of doctrine this we deny not to a Synod For that Synod Act. 15. did put forth such power and we acknowledge other Synods may doe the like upon like occasion and their determinations being according to the Scripture ought to bind all those whom they represent They acknowledge that neighbour Churches may meet and consult and advise each other and withdraw all fellowship from any one that shall grow pertinaciously scandalous pag. 2. And you may adde further that by their messengers being met in a Synod they may determine by the Scriptures any matter of controversie that may arise But for matter of jurisdiction or power of the Keyes in excommunication ordination or whatever Censure they hold it is entirely and onely in every single Congregation though but of 2 or 3 beleevers p. 2. If any hold so small a number as 2 or 3 to be a Church so compleat as to have power of excommunication ordination and whatever Censure they may if they see cause declare their grounds for so holding But for our parts for ought we yet see a Church that hath such power as is here spoken of had need to be a greater number then two or three even so many as shall be necessary and requisite for the carrying on of Church-worke in admonition and reprehension of one another as there shall be cause and therfore they had need to be seaven or more For a Brother that sinneth must so be dealt withall for his recovery that if he remain impenitent the proceeding against him is still to goe on by degrees till at last the matter be brought unto the Church Mat. 18. 15 16 17. But in all the degrees of proceeding against him the persons before whom he is called are in every latter step and degree more in number then they were in the former and so the Church being the last is the greatest number of all And yet there are three at the least that must be acquainted with the matter before it must be brought unto the Church viz. the brother offending the brother offended and one witnesse at the least so that the Church consisting of those three or foure that deal in the matter before it come into the Church and of another number greater then they and distinct from them to whom the matter is brought