of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
Religion whiche it first receaued neque heresis vlla illic sumpsit exordium and that no heresie did spring there But to our matter that forwardnes in the Latine Churche he confesseth I thinke in respect of Tertullian whose manifest testimonies he coulde not otherwise shift him of and therefore of him somewhere he saith thus I denie that any of the auncient Fathers in Christ his time or Scholars to his Apostles Pu. 435. or within one or two hundreth yeares after Christ except one that had it of Montanus the heretike as he had more thinges besides in any one worde mainteined your cause for Purgatorie or Prayers for the deade Mary Montanus of whom Tertullian receaued his heresie had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes Againe I will not denie but you haue much drosse and dragges of the later sorte of Doctors Pur. 247. and the later the fuller of drosse But bring me any worde out of any that did write within one .100 yeares after Christ that alloweth prayer or almes for the dead Where as we sée by the later sort of Doctors he sheweth him self to meane such as were without one .100 yeares after Christ But of that one .100 yeares also together with Tertullian and the Fathers afore him vp vnto Christ we shall haue occasion to say more anone in our third Article Hauing therefore thus shewed in this first Article howe he chargeth the true confessed Fathers of the true confessed Church with this error as which he summeth vp together in an other place Pur. 458. and saith The error was continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Let vs now sée how he chargeth the same whole true Churche for some time with the same and that the more briefely because we haue nowe so often hard him say of so many times that it was the common error of that time and that time ij What he saieth of the whole Church in some of those times Pur. 382. Thus he saith in one place If we be asked how we can shifte our selues against the generall practise of Gods Churche for all popish assertions and namely this of praying for the dead We answere that we denye the practise to be generall because wee finde it Is nothing generall but that vvhich you find in them not in the most auncient writers that liued within an hundreth yeares and more after the time of Christ But what say you to the later practise which for places then was generall though for times you count it particular And to the particular practise of later times we answere that it is not sufficient to controll the auncient doctrine and primer practise Againe in an other place 370. The same order that was before Epiphanius and error that was in Epiphanius time doe all the later Liturgies followe and therefore saye I all the later Byshoppes and Priestes and people because they vsed those Liturgies making memorie and prayers for all them that are departed in the faith What saye you then to that practise so generall In the memorie of all departed they followe the olde order in praying for all they followe the later error which had chaunged the sacrifice of thankes geuing into the sacrifice of prayer But more of the olde Liturgies nowe in the thirde Article which must be of the originall that the Fathers referred this their practise vnto iij. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And here first for perspicuitie I remember to the Reader what S. Augustine saith of fasting August â—pist 86. Casul In the Scriptures of the new Testament Video praeceptum esse Ieiunium I see that fasting is commaunded But what dayes we must keepe fast Non inuenio in illis literis euidenter praeceptum I finde not in those scriptures euidently commaunded And yet the fast of fortie dayes before Easter and some others both he many moe of the Fathers doe say to be Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— commended vnto vs in the Scripture of the new Testament but specially that it coÌ„meth expresly vnto vs of the Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— Apostles tradition without Scripture The like they say of prayer for the dead that it is expresly found in the holy Scripture But the certaine times that it is solemnely practised as vpon the burial day the third seuenth thirteth fourteth yeares day and also in a certaine speciall prayer of the holy Masse are they say eyther all or some of them of the Apostles plaine TraditioÌ„ though also commaunded to vs out of Scripture So say the Fathers and for their so saying let vs now sée what this maÌ„ saith of them And to omit because it requireth a longer treatie that he maketh in effect no lesse then heretiks of S. Augustine with others Infr ca. â— Pur. 214 for auouching sacrifice for the dead out of the booke of Maccabées as out of Canonical scripture Gregorie Bernard Bede whoÌ„ D. Allen alleageth vpon the place of Mathew 12 are of opinion Pur. 19. â— Gre. 4.19 Ber. Ser. in Cant Bed in Mar. 3. saith Fulke that sinnes not remitted in this world may be remitted in the world to come But howe happeneth it that Chrysostome and Ieronym which both interpreted that place coulde gather no such matter although they otherwise allowed Prayer for the deade the reason must needes be because the error of Purgatorie growing so much the stronger as it were nearer to the full reuelation of Antichrist Gregorie and Bede sought not the true meaning of Christ in this Scripture but the confirmation of their plausible error Then S. Chrysostome bylike will please him Pur. 251.247 Chris ho. â—4 in 1. cor 15. Such pitie may bring you into the pit of hell Pur. 237. but heare I pray you out of an other place I denie not but that Chrysostome doth alleage this example of Iob sacrificing for his children Cap. 1. for prayers to profite the dead What shall we say Those good men in that declining state of the Church to superstition being destitute of the cleare testimonies of Scripture to maintaine those plausible errors are driuen to such simple shiftes to vphold them as it is great pittie to see Againe But where learned Chrysostome that prayers and almes had any comfort in them for the dead surely he alleageth Scripture but he applieth it madly and yet he often applieth it to the same purpose Pur. 226. Amb. de obit Theod. Alas good man Likewise Ambrose commendeth Honorius the young Emperour for solemnising the funerals of Theodosius his father by the space of .40 dayes after the example of Ioseph Genesis .50 such superstition crept into the Churche first by emulation of the Paganes and after seeking for colourable confirmation in the examples of the
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
Patriarkes Pur. 363. Againe Those Doctors that would seeke confirmation of prayer and oblation for the dead in the Scriptures as Chrysostome and such like doe manifestly wrest them to their purpose I doe here no more but note that he chargeth them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche euen so as he chargeth vs But what Scriptures and how substantially they alleaged I must reserue to * See ca. 13. an other place As that also which * See cap. 9. pag. he grateth vpon so often out of Tertullian as if he should confesse that prayer and oblation for the deade is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Whereas in déede he doth not so say but onely of the solemne times of such oblation in such manner as I alleaged a litle before out of S. Augustine concerning fasting and fasting dayes The offring anima die vpon the yeares myndday for the dead and the solemne memorie of them in the Canon of the Masse these thinges Tertullian and others ascribe to the Apostles traditions and not to precept of the Scripture And now for making it such a tradition what saith Fulke againe of them Pur. 39◠Thinke you that prayers for the dead came from the Apostles because Tertullian saith so And a litle after If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he And againe Where Chrysostome saith Pur. 303. It was agreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that be departed for they right well knew great profite to arise thervpon vnto them he must pardon vs of crediting him It is no maruell now after this to sée him fayne to denie the See cap. 13. most certaine works of the Apostles Scholars Clemens Romanus Dionysius Areopagita witnessing the same tradition and to say that we haue them but of some counterfayting knaue that could not otherwise mainteine his heresie to be olde Pur. 268. The modestie of the man tovvardes the old vvriters but by falsifying and counterfayting anew that which neuer was in the olde writers heades Finally vnlesse he make the like counterfaiting knaue of S. Chrysostome also he may sée by this testimonie of his that he had no cause for this poynt to charge him or any other after him with suche a chaunge of the olde Liturgies as he doth in many places saying But be it that Chrysostome Basil did write these Liturgies Pur. 356. Itē 360.371 the oldest Fathers that can be giuen them I would know what Liturgies they had in those Churches before Chrysostome and Basil deuised those formes that are said to be theirs If you would in déede know it and namely for this poynt about the dead Chrysostome him selfe as also Augustine Epiphanius Tertullian and others alleaged by D. Allen hath tolde you that it was all one and the same afore and after It followeth in him And whye Chrysostome Basill Gregorie or any other that prescribed newe formes of seruice were not content with the old formes that were vsed in their Churches before their dayes * See his boldnes vndoubtedly because they were too simple for their curiositie too sincere for their superstition sauouring of the auncient truth not fauouring their lately receiued errors And a litle after The authors of these Liturgies thought to confirme it by publike authoritie whiche was before but a blinde error without a head I shall answere this why of yours in the sixt Chapter where I must answere for these Fathers iiij He contrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuel and his limmes Now let vs come to the fourth and last article to sée him so farre confronting those Fathers which haue thus fathered this matter vpon the Apostles partly their writings partly their tradition that he cleane contrarie fathereth it vpon the diuell him selfe sundry lims of his saying boldly that thence the holy Fathers had it Ar. 39. It is certayne saith he that prayer for the dead was first planted by the diuell as were other abuses and because it hath a great pretence of charitie deceyued simple men the sooner Pur. 386. And with more particularitie in an other place First the diuel suggested superstitious deuotion into the Gentiles by peruerse emulation of whom Iudas Machabaeus might be deceyued And his facte gaue occasion to the ignoraunt people of error And their ignoraunce first winked at because it had a shewe of pietie confirmed by custome might at length Pur. 436. for none of the auncient Fathers within foure hundred yeres was wholly of your error be allowed of Augustine and others who neuer weyed the matter by Scriptures but by the common practise And this I thinke saith he is the righte pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie And in an other place yet more particularly Pur. 416. Pur. 152.266.386.410 I haue promised sayth he and that very often and therefore so muche the more to be noted to proue that the opinion of Purgatorie had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had He beginneth that paragraph with these wordes Nowe at the length commeth the author of this Heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine whom D. Allen there alleageth that Aerius an Arian was the firste that denied prayers and oblations to profite the dead Vnto that Fulke goeth about there to aunswere to quitte Aerius and to counteraccuse those Fathers and their felowes Well then Purgatorie sayth he had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had And what was that Heresie was receyued from the diuell by Philosophers and Gentiles And howe proue you that Purgatorie was so receyued Mary all Philosophers whiche graunted the Immortalitie of the soule as Phythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned three places for the soules departed And who else Carpocrates was a great admirer of Philosophie This Heretike learning out of Plato his Philosophie that mens soules must be purified after their death inuented a kinde of Purgatorie out of the opinion of Pythagoras Yet forwarde Origen to muche a Philosopher was not content with Plato his purification but he must bring in Platoes fire also Is this all Afterwarde about S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented by some mediators and conciliators of Origens error with the erroneous practise of the Churche Here loe we haue the thirde place the purification the fire and the name We lacke nowe but the relieuing of the Soules there For that he saith The Heracleonites would redeme their dead after a new maner namely by oyle balme water and Inuocation said ouer their heades in the Hebrew tongue But at one stroke to strike vs starke dead Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes First that the Patriarkes before Christes
comming were in hell That Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower partes That only Martyrs and perfect men are priuileged of God to goe to Paradise That all small offences must be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be payed Then for prayers a litle after And therefore sayth he it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes vpon the grounde of this opinion not content with the oblations for the dead whiche the Church then had by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles Oblations of thanks giuing also are heathenish and yet were but oblations of thankes giuing they added also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead whereof Tertullian maketh mention And that you may not doubt whether he charge vs alone or also the auncient Fathers with all this goe to his wordes alleaged out of the same place in this Chapter by me afore beginning thus And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that if the Gentils or Heretiks had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse c. After all this he concludeth in the ende saying Wherfore it is left that Montanus and his felowes were the first that taught prayers for the dead to be profitable And agayne Therfore Aërius was not the first that held our opinion but Mōtanus before him was the first that held your opinion throughly Mary you haue played the man in déede and performed I trow euery iote of the vaunting promise that you made a litle before when you said Pur. 410. That we can not reade out of the word of God we shal heare of Purgatorie among the Paganes Carpocratians Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon that is as your owne mouth hath here confessed the Church at the farthest by S. Augustines time hath pacht vp her Purgatorie and sacrifices for the dead as by and by I shall declare Thus I haue shewed how he noteth the true Church for so many particular errors of ours as about Ceremonies about the Crosse about the name of Sacrifice about Fastingdayes and abstinence from certaine meates about Sole life of the Cleargie and vowe of virginitie about merite of the same of abstinence about inuocation of Saints and worshipping of their Relikes about Purgatory and reliefe of the soules in Purgatory and that they were so much addicted therevnto that they counted the contraries to be Heresies and béeing opposite to the holy Scriptures and Traditions of the Apostles vj. As touching the Popes primacie To all these errors I will yet adde one more which he maketh so much of that he ascribeth the Apostasie of the Church by him imagined to the same Which for all that I will here shew to be imputed by him also to the true Church that in the second Chapter we heard him to confesse It consisteth in the matter of the Popes Superioritie To begin therfore with him an high come downward along the true Church vntil it And yet no mā then in the vvorlde that vvent out frō the Pope Ar. 47. Ar. 36. vanished quite away forsooth vpon a soden by force of a summe of mony giuen taken of Bonifacius the third and Phocas the Emperour thus he hath first of Pope Victor Victor went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches And againe Victor Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lord 200. passed the boundes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Afterwarde he noteth Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome for the like in S. Cyprians time for medling with Afrike Asia and Spaine Furthermore Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius Bishops of Rome all in a row chalenged prerogatiue ouer the Bishops in Aphrica by forging of a false Canon of the Nicene Councell And againe Celestinus Bishop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians And there in the end By these examples it is plaine that the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke or as he spoke there a litle before The Popes authoritie first beganne to aduaunce it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastatius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius and Caelestinus And in an other place of some of them againe Pur. 255. The Nicen Councell the first and the best was corrupted with counterfected Canons by the Bishops of Rome to maintaine their vsurped authoritie in the dayes of S. Augustine And in the nexte Chapter we shall heare him call the Churche in Innocentius his time Pur. 148. the companie which hath the Pope for their head Item the Pope and al them that take his part Finally to come to S. Gregories time where D. Allen saith thus So if thou would know whether that place that our aduersaries impudently doe alleage out of Gregorie the great against the Soueraigntie of the See of Rome Pur. 305.310.194 was in deede written for their seditious purpose beholde the practise of the same father and thou shalt finde him selfe exercise iurisdiction at the very same time when he wrote it in all Prouinces Christianed throughout the world both by excommunication of Bishops that gouerned not well by often citation of persons in extreeme prouinces by many appeales made vnto him by continuall legacies to other Nations sent either to conuert them to the Faith or to gouerne them in their doubtfull affaires and by all other exercise of spirituall iurisdiction c. He in his answer is driuen to say to this The practise of Gregorie although it were much more modest then of his Successors yet can it not be excused but it was contrarie to his doctrine whereby he reproueth an other to wit the Bishop of Constantinople in that he was not altogether cleare him selfe As though either he or any his successor vsed the stile of vniuersall Bishop and not all the cleane contrarie Seruus seruorum Dei Seruaunt to Gods seruauntes All this I haue so copiously alleaged out of him though not so copiously as I might for these thrée purposes First that the Reader might clearely sée that in so many pointes he confesseth him selfe and his fellow protestantes to dissent from them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche Secondly that againe he confesseth vs in the same points to agrée with the same Thirdly therefore and especially that he hath not for these pointes and so neyther for such as depende of these iust cause to denie vs the true Churche Note vvell vvhosoeuer seeke the Churche which he so graunteth to them that holde the same pointes and that vpon the same groundes and as earnestly or if he will euen as obstinately as we doe nowe condemning their aduersaries therein of heresie and so consequently of separation from the true Churche howsoeuer them selues rather are charged by him to haue receiued of older heretikes their opinions but that contrariwyse wée are for so muche to bée more excused then they as wée
But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be
opposed to our argumentes as you oppose it in the last Chapter You might if the Maior were true labour to the purpose I graunt in prouing the Minor But you might not I say for all that make of it an opposition or exception when we make argumentes out of Traditions Councels Fathers c. as in the like I shew vnto you I proue a doctrine vnto you out of the Old Testament you oppose therevnto your negatiue argument and say to me All true doctrine is taught in the New Testament for so you do holde and must holde that doctrine is not taught in the New Testament therfore that doctrine is no true doctrine Is this well opposed of you May not I say to you notwithstanding Yea syr but for all that what say you to my place alleaged out of the Old Testament vnlesse you haue any thing against the Old Testament it selfe Euen so vnles you haue any thing directly against Traditions them selues Councels Fathers and suche others our argumentes do preuayle and you in vayne do flée to Only Scripture although all true doctrine were taught in Scripture Now to the second question concerning the Church ¶ The second part Concerning the question of the Church About the Church his contradictions are very many and very palpable as I will declare in the eleuenth Chapter Here I haue to examine what he alleageth first indefinitely That the Church may erre That it may be diuorced That it is a base and contemptible companie That it may and also should become inuisible and then by name That the Protestantes haue the true Church or That the Papistes haue it not j Of the Church indefinitely That the whole Church may erre he alleageth and saith According to the saying of the Scripture Euery man is a lyer Ar. 86. Wherfore the whole Church militant consisting of men which are all lyers may erre altogether Why do you say The church militant Doth not the Church triumphant also consist of men If therefore all men be lyers why may not they also erre No doubt because although all men are lyers of them selues yet some men may notwithstanding by the gifte of God be veraces true And so where you conclude thus vpon vs God onely is not true Pur. 451. for the Pope can not erre you might conclude aswell God onely is not true for the Apostles can not erre Againe you alleage and say The true and only Church of God hath no such priuiledge graunted Ar. 88. but that she may be deceiued in some things For her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect 1. Cor. 13. Where you her S. Paule saith our including him selfe also in that speache Ex parte enim cognoscimus c. For our knowledge is vnperfect and our prophecying is vnperfect so long as we be in this life whether we speake or write And yet you will not say I trow that S. Paule therefore might be deceiued in his writings and Epistles So then the Churches priuiledge knowledge prophecying may be vnperfect and yet she withall so frée from erring that she may be bolde in her determinations to say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath bene thought good of the holy Ghost and of vs. Againe you say And it is true that S. Augustine saith Euen the whole Church is taught to say euery day Ar 88. Pur. 393. Aug. Retra li. 2. ca. 18. Forgeue vs our trespasses But why so because the whole Church doth erre in her determinations euery day It were ridiculous so to say Why theÌ„ Propter quasdam ignorantias infirmitates membrorum suorum Because of certayne veniall sinnes of her members procéeding of ignorance frayltie saith S. Augustine In which members the Apostles also in their time were and therefore they also accordingly were taught to say euery day Forgeue vs our trespasses and did say accordingly Iac 3. 1. Io. 1. We do all offend in many things And yet I trow they did not erre nor could erre in their Canonicall writinges and determinations This is all that you bring to proue the whole Churche of Christ may erre Though you alleage one other place that the whole Synagogue did erre and yet that also onely in a fact not in a doctrine yea neither the whole Synagogue but a piece onely So that there bee as you see no lesse then three walles as it were betwene the Church and this shotte of yours These are your wordes Pur. 224.456 Dauid transgressed the law of God to carry the Arke vpon a new chariotte which should haue bene borne vpon mens shoulders … y blindnesse 1. Chron. 13. wherin not onely Dauid but so many priests and Leuites so good a Bishop and the whole Generall Councell of Israel did erre So say you but so saith not the texte yea it vtterly confoundeth both you and all these prophane innouations made by your ley heades and Parliamentes Dauid tooke counsaile saith the texte with his Tribunes and Centurions 1. Par. 13. 1â—… and all his Nobles He did not so much as consulte no not with the inferiour sorte of the Priestes but onelie If you please quoth he to his temporall Lordes and if the motion be of God let vs sende to the rest of our brethern in all the lande of Israel and to the priestes and Leuites in their Suburbes as you woulde saie the hedge Priestes that they gather vnto vs and we fetche agayne to vs the Arke of God And so they beganne in suche maner as you reporte vntill God killed Oza the Leuite in the procession and so made Dauid afraide to carrie it any further But three monethes after hauing found his error he gathered not onelie all Israel into Ierusalem but also filios Aaron Sadoc et Abiathar Sacerdotes The Successors of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar the high priestes Leuitas and the Leuites with the heades of them being these six Vriel Asaias Ioel Semeias Eliel and Aminadab These two Bishops and these sixe Archedeacons that I may so tearme them he called and saide vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues together with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place whiche is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lorde did smite vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing A notable ensample for all Princes and for al nobles to remember how they haue offended and to amende it accordingly and all A maiori in euery respect aboue the highest degree One more of your places I thinke good here to examine though you bring it not to proue that the Church may erre but onely to answere a place that we bring for the contrary Ar. 86. The true and onely Church of Christ you say can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceaued in some thinges euen as
the dead these two places of S. Hieromes are all that he alleageth Now touching Scriptures that we alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead it is good although it be not necessary vnlesse he can fortify his new castellet of Onely Scripture better then yet he hath done to examine whether the Doctors do say as he pretendeth either generally that no Scripture at all maketh for Purgatory prayer for the dead or so much as namely this place or that place doth not Whether the Doctors say no Scripture to make for it For the first Tertullian speaking no more but of the Oblations for the dead which we make vpon their yeres mindday saith Tertul. de corona Militis Huius disciplinae si legem expostules Scripturarum nullam inuenies For this discipline if thou require a lawe out of the Scriptures thou shalt finde none Traditio tibi praetendetur autrix Consuetudo confirmatrix Fides obseruatrix Tradition shal be declared to be the author of it Custome the corfirmer Faith the obseruer Nowe commeth Fulke which also I noted in the third Chapter and for this one particuler is bold to say generally Par. 2. diu 3 that all offering and all praying for the dead is confessed of Tertullian to be beside the Scripture As where he saith Pur. 264. They that is S. Chrysostome with some other old Doctors as also nowe their Successors the Catholikes labour to wrest the Scriptures to find that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be founde in them Pur. 268. Againe Tertullian hath discharged you of authoritie of the Scripture already Againe Tertullian as wise a man as M. Allen Pur. 275. affirmeth as we heard before that prayer for the dead hath no foundation in the Scriptures Againe Pur. 286. Neuer once mentioned in the Scripture and so confessed by Tertullian one that leaned to some part of your cause Againe Pur. 393. He vtterly denieth that they came from the Scriptures Therfore by Tertullians iudgemēt you do abuse the Scriptures Agayne Pur. 410. Praying and offering for the dead as Tertullian himselfe confesseth is not taught by the Scriptures Yet soone after to shew that Tertullian with Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes amongest other poyntes of his opinion he noteth Pur. 417. that all small offences must as he thought be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be paide Mat. 5. But reseruing that to the eleuenth chapter as one of his grosse contradictions I will here note how vpon the foresaid particular of only Tertullian he is farre more bold then yet we haue heard Pur. 363. For thus he saith They them selues that is the old Doctors for the most part confesse that prayer oblation for the dead is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Pur. 435. as Tertullian Augustine and other Againe Of them amongst the auncient Fathers that mainteined prayers for the dead the most confessed they had it not out of the Scriptures but of tradition of the Apostles and custome of the Church They denied it to be receiued of the scriptures This he saith of S. Augustine by name and withall of the most part of the fathers hauing in his whole booke no such saying of any other neither euen that of Tertullians importing so much but only as I haue declared So then haue I shewed that he fayleth in this that he braggeth of the Doctors confessing against them selues and vs as though generally no Scripture at all doth make for Purgatory or prayer for the dead Now let vs come to particuler Scriptures Thus he sayth Of certayne particuler textes Pu. 103. S. Augustine although otherwise inclining to the error of Purgatory yet he is cleare that this texte 1. Cor. 3. of him that shall be saued through fire proueth it not neither ought to be expounded of it and that he sheweth by many reasons Enchirid ad Laur. ca 68. where he affirmeth that by the fire is ment the triall of tribulation in this life You say that he affirmeth it but he saith that it is an harde place and with doubtfulnesse speaketh accordingly Non absurdè accipi possunt So may this and this be interpreted not absurdly And where you say he is cleare that this texte proueth not Purgatorie and agayne that it ought not to be expounded of it and agayne that he sheweth the same by many reasons All is false No such matter Onely he sheweth that it ought not to be expounded after the Heresie of the Origenistes of hell fyre as though they that be in it may at the length be saued and that it may be expounded of the fyre of tribulation in this life Yea moreouer he sayth expresly that it may be expounded also of some other like fire after this life cleane contrarie to that whiche you here reporte of him though in other places you also your selfe contrarie to your selfe do reporte the same Whereof I shall anone haue occasion to say more in the third diuision of this chapter This is the onely place of all that D. Allen doth alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead which Fulke pretendeth any Doctor to say that it ought not to be expounded thereof But where he sayth thus speaking of D. Allen Pur. 145. For my part I will not refuse to satisfie his demaunde He will knowe and haue vs aposed from whence wee haue that newe meaning of our Sauiours wordes that he whiche is caste into prison for neglecting of reconciliation while he is in the way Mat. 5. is caste into hell from whence he shall neuer come and then alleageth for that sense Chrysostome Augustine Hierome and Chromatius This I saye is passing childishe althoughe it were true as it is not that all those Doctours haue that sense for D. Allen demaundeth no suche thing reade his wordes whosoeuer will Yea straight after reciting the Protestantes obiection That the places of the Olde and Newe Testament Pur. 148.151 alleaged for Purgatorie though they be thus expounded of the Doctors for Purgatorie yet sometimes they be construed otherwise by the Fathers them selues I answere to this he sayth and freely confesse it For that is not the question betwéene vs whether the Fathers haue expounded those textes of other poyntes of our Catholike faith for if they haue what maketh that agaynst vs but this whether they haue expounded those textes for Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with vs and whether they haue expounded them or anye other agaynst Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with you As for the diuersitie of true senses the Churche hath euer giuen roome saith D. Allen to the Expositors according to euery ones gifte onely prouided that no man of singularitie father any falsehood vpon any text Howbeit also euery ones true sense is not alwayes the very right and proper sense of that same text Whereof I spoke
that be Canonical but among others being Apocryphal Cuius authoritas c. The authoritie of which boke is thought lesse fit to confirme those things that come into contention betwéene the Hebrewes no doubt and vs. But notwithstanding the Hebrues counting it Apocryphal the Nicene Councell as we reade hath reckned this booke in the number of the Holy Scriptures As also S. Augustine distinguisheth saying Aug. de Ci. dei li. 18. ca 36 The supputation of the times after Esdras to Aristobulus is not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in others among which others are also the bookes of the Machabees which though the Iewes do not yet the Church counteth for Canonicall By all which it is playne that S. Hierome meaneth not as the Protestantes do when he saith that the Church receiueth not the bookes of Iudith Tobias and the Machabees among the Canonicall Scriptures For him selfe saith that the booke of Iudith is Canonicall by the Councell of Nice but only as I haue saide he instructeth the Christians béeing ignorant in the Hebrue tongue what bookes they should vse against the Iewes for which cause he also addressed his new Translation of the olde Testament out of the Hebrew as in many places he protesteth Hie. Apol. ad Ruff. and that the Church in Canonizing those other bookes meant not for all that that they should be vsed agaynst the Iewes who receiue them not and therfore would but laugh at vs for our labour Howbeit also if S. Hierome did saye in the Protestantes sense that the Churche then receyued not those bookes neither in her owne Canon that maketh nothing for the Protestantes For we graunt the time was when the Church did not generally receiue some of those bookes To make for the Protestantes he should haue saide that the Church and not only any priuate person neither did then nor ought afterwardes to receiue them Pur. 216. Where now is Fulke that saith Hieronym doth simply refuse these bookes of the Machabées Agayne Hieronym saith the Church receiueth them not for Canonicall Pur. 386. Yea moreouer I haue by the consent of the Catholike Church aunswered them And agayne of Tobias booke Pur. 215.230 I haue shewed by authoritie of Hieronym which is proofe sufficient agaynst the Papist that the Church receiueth not this booke of Tobias for Canonicall Scripture All this you saye but I haue shewed that not so muche as Hierome him selfe maketh with you though also if he did Supra pa. 1. eodem cap. that is not proofe sufficient agaynst vs as I haue tolde you playne inough before that it is onely the consent of the Doctours to whiche we attribute infallibilitie and the scope that of confidence of our cause we geue you to bring one Doctour if you can is not in these bymatters but in our principall controuersies And this much of the Canonicall Scriptures though it be somwhat besides my limites Whervnto yet I must néedes adde the place where you say thus Pur. 218. If Martyn Luther and Illyricus haue sometimes doubted of S. Iames Epistle they are not the first that doubted of it Eusebius sayth playnely it is a counterfeite Epistle lib. 2. cap. 23. and yet he was not accounted an heretike I say not this to excuse them that doubt of it for I am perswaded they are more curious then wise in so doing Do you make it but curiositie to doubt of that Scripture which your selfe also confesse to be Canonicall Howbeit Luther not onely doubted of it but also vtterly reiected it euen with as great courage as you haue here reiected the second of the Machabées and that also after the consent of the whole Church Is this no worse then Eusebius his fault before the Churches declaration O worthy estimation of Canonicall Scripture What matter will not you license them of your side to doubt of without note of Heresie when you dare so do in that which with you is the greatest And yet also to shewe what a marchaunt you are A falsarie Eusebius saith not as you charge him but the cleane contrarie Eu. li. 2. c. 22 His wordes are these Of Iames I reade so muche By whom the first of the Epistles which are named Catholicae is saide to be written But this one thing I maye not omit that although of some it is taken for a counterfeite because no suche number of the auncient writers maketh any mention at all of it as neither of that which is saide to be the Epistle of Iude which also is sette in the number of the seuen Epistles Catholicall Tamen nos istas cum reliquis in quamplurimis Ecclesijs publicè receptas approbatasque cognouimus Yet we haue founde these with the residue to be publikely receiued and approued in very many Churches ij About onely Scripture Next vnto this I take in hande the question of Onely Scripture thinking better to deferre the rest touching Purgatorie to the end of the chapter dispatching also all other questions before because they be shorter Howe he ascribed all authoritie to Onely Scripture and nothing to ought els we heard in the seuenth chapter If the Doctors be not of their ovvn side they be on â—ulks side Now he will beare the ignorant in hande that the Doctors were of the same opinion yet confessing withall that they helde the contrarie no lesse then we doo as partly in that same chapter we saw partly here agayne we shall sée And therefore in this question agayne as in others afore it is no more agaynst vs then agaynst those Doctours them selues whatsoeuer he wresteth oute of their writings Cyprian would haue nothing done in the celebration of the Lords supper namely in ministring of the cup Pur. 287. but that Christ him selfe did li. 2. Epist 3. I answere he writeth there contra Aquarios against them that offered in the Chalice water onely whereas Christ offered wine That he calleth aliud quà m quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit An other thing then that which Christ did first for vs as being cleane against Christes doing and such a doing as he did for a tradition to vs. But otherwise to mingle the wine with water S. Cyprian there requireth and that also by Christes tradition and therfore he buildeth not vpon onely Scripture as you in alleaging him séeme to pretend Pur. 303. Now for an other Doctor where Chrysostome sayth It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy Mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed we will be bold to charge him with his owne saying And there you alleage foure places out of him against him selfe as it were for onely Scripture Is not this pretie shewing of the Doctors to be of your side And what are these places of S. Chrysostome First IdeÌ„ Ar. 69. Hom. de Adam et Heua Satis sufficere c. We thinke it suffiseth enough whatsoeuer
you alleage there is no mention at all of Scripture but onely of preaching and teaching Likewise S. Hillarius most expresly auoucheth euery where the authoritie of the Nicene Councell against the Arrians and yet you pretend that he would haue heresies against the Trinitie Ar. 11. Hilar. li. 4. de Trin. to be confuted not by mens iudgement but by Gods word You marke well what he doeth in that place How heresies must be confuted is not his purpose but to answere the Scriptures that the Heretikes abused and misconstrued which he there had recited at large therefore he saith Cessent propriae hominum opiniones neque se vltra diuinam constitutionem humana iudicia extendant Let mens proper opinions cease neither let the iudgementes or fancies of men stretche them selues beyonde Gods limite Therefore against these prophane and impious institutions or Catechismes of God let vs followe the selfe-same authorities of Gods sayinges which they alleage in their owne false sense restoring euery one of them to his true meaning Which there consequently he doth A goodly testimonie for your purpose The saying of S. Basill is in euery mans mouth Basi de spi Sanc. ca. 27 that the Doctrines preached in the Church we haue them partely by writing partely by the Apostles Tradition without writinge And if we go about to reiect suche vnwritten customes we shall vnawares condemne the Gospell also Imo ipsam fidei predicationem ad nudum nomen contrahemus yea wee shall bring the verye preaching of our faith to a bare name And you your selfe doe note it as a greate matter that by his confession here Pur. 380. the wordes of Inuocation when the Blessed Sacrament is shewed are not taughte by the Scripture no more then many other ceremonies that he rehearseth in the same place And yet must he also beare you witnesse against himselfe for Only Scripture Ar. 11. Basi de vera side in prooem Moraliū Well what saith he In his treatise of faith We know that we must now and alwayes auoyde euery worde and opinion that is differing from the doctrine of our Lord. I say the same But it is not all one to be differing from our Lords doctrine and not to be expressed in Scripture In so muche that he alloweth wel of those words in speaking of the Trinitie Quae apud Sanctos viros in vsu fuisse reperirentur Which had bene vsed of the holy fathers although they were not in Scripture Basi in Regulis breu Interrog 1. Two sayings more of his you alleage In his short definitions to the first interrogation Whether it be lawfull or profitable for a man to permit vnto him selfe to do or say any thing which he thinketh to be good without testimonie of the holy Scriptures He answereth For as much as our Sauiour Christ saith that the Holy ghost shall not speake of him selfe what madnes is it that any man should presume to beleue any thing without the authoritie of Gods word If you saw the place your malice passeth The words are these Quis esse tanta vesania c. Who can be so madde that he dare so much as to thinke any thing of himselfe And it followeth But because of those things and words that are in vse amongst vs some are playnly taught in the holy Scripture some are omitted Concerning them that are written they must precisely be so obserued and concerning them that are omitted we haue this rule To be subiect to other men for Gods commaundement renouncing quite our owne willes Which he saith because he writeth there to Monkes who vow obedience to their Superiours Basil Mor. Reg. 26. c. 1. Agayne In his Morals Dist 26. Euery word or deede must be confirmed by the testimonie of holy Scripture for the perswasion of good men and the confusion of wicked men He there admonisheth his Monkes béeing studentes of Diuinitie to be so perfect in the Scriptures that they may haue a text ready at euery néede so as Christ had to repel the diuels temptation Mat. 4. and Peter to answere the Iewes scoffe Act. 2. And we desire the same in so much as when you bid vs cast all away that is not written we haue this text ready where S. Paul biddeth vs the contrarie To hold the Traditions which we haue learned whether it be by his Scripture or by his word of mouth 2. Thes 2. Last of all we haue to sée what you alleage likewise out of S. Augustine for your onely Scripture Augustine For you play with his nose also as you haue done with his fellowes the foresaid Doctors confessing that he is for vnwritten Traditions and suche other authorities as we stand vpon and yet alleaging him for Onely Scripture Your confession I haue reported at large in the seuenth chapter as for example where you say Augustine blindly defendeth in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda Pur. 349. and else where the cōmon error of his time of prayer for the dead which by holy Scripture he was not able to mainteine contrarie to his owne rule of only Scripture in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Well then how do you shew out of Augustine against Augustine him selfe that this was his rule You make your shew in thrée partes Ar. 12. Pur. 383.405.368.451 First you quote onely without recitall of any words eleuen or twelue places out of him In which he preferreth the authoritie of the Canonicall Scripture before all writings of Catholike Doctors of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions So you gather of those places But that is not the question Which is to be preferred but this Whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie And touching the preferment also recite the wordes when you will and it will appeare playnly that he neither preferreth the Scripture otherwise then we do Your second part is about this one question Ar. 12. Who haue the true Church Of whiche question you saye that S. Augustine would haue the Church fought only in the Scriptures Reade my first Demaund and you shall sée what S. Augustine would haue in that question and that I would haue the same to wit that you answere the Scriptures that he alleageth for his Church and for ours together and that you bring one text for the visible Churches perishing after a time or vanishing out of sight and one text that one Luther or one Caluine should after so many hundred yeres restore it againe This is the summe of al. In dede he is content in that question to set aside all other authorities so to draw the Donatists who drew backe al that they could standing vpon other things impertinent to try it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer saith You allenge him De 〈◊〉 Ecclesia cap. 2. where he saith and the like cap. 3.5.6 The question betwene vs and
places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
Vnitie As though Christ or S. Augustine or we did speake of any other then Vnitie of Christian People and in Christian faith And if any Heresie among the Christians haue had their vnitie also that doth no more but declare that the same Heresie whatsoeuer it were might for this at the least claime the true Church better then the Protestantes For another shifte he sayeth Ar. 107. that the Church may be called the howse of peace because there is in it peace and agreement in the chiefest Articles of the Faith By which reason he might say that very many of the old Heresies were within the Howse of Peace because they agréed with the Church in the chéefest Articles But we say that any one Article be it of the chéefest or of the meanest may breake the peace as quartadecimani did disagrée onely in the day of Easter and many other like in S. Augustines Catalogue of Heresies to Quodvultdeus And therefore it helpeth his side nothing that he saith to excuse their diuision Ar. 63.61.62.10.58.96.103 that the Lutherans Zuinglians do differ but in one matter and that not the greatest to wit concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Be it so that among them are no more but these two Sectes and betwéene these no more difference which yet is most false as not onely large tables of their names set out by Catholikes but also innumerable Bookes about innumerable matters set out be them selues against one another and euen their own Puritanes now at home do notoriously declare One matter I say is inough yea also if it be but a ceremonie though you say of some of yours They differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Yes Syr when they holde their owne Ceremonies to be necessarie or condemne the Churches Ceremonies as vnlawful as those Quartadecimani did they are Heretikes and therefore diuided from the faith Howbeit also diuision is made sometimes without any disagréemēt so much as in a ceremonie as whē it is a méere Schisme not mixt with any Heresie at all Such were the Schismes that were towards among the Corinthians 1. Cor. 3.4 swelling one against another onely vpon their Baptizars and Teachers And therefore what is the matter that you differ in forceth not Onely if you diuide your selues and will not come to one anothers Churches where is your vnitie As for difference of opinions betwene our Canonists and Diuines or also betwene our Schole Diuines among them selues it is as I said in the 8. Dem. pag. 283. all without diuision all in vnitie Aug. cōtra Iul. li. 1. c. 2. De bap cō Donat. li. 1. ca. 18. all no otherwise then as S. Augustine saith Sometime also the most learned and best defenders regulae Catholicae of the Catholike rule do without breaking the frame of fayth not accorde and diuers be of diuers iudgementes without anye breake of peace vntill a generall Councell allowe some one parte for cleare and pure Suche was the difference of S. Cyprian his fellowes from the other Catholikes about Baptisme here in the 28. Dem. And suche was the difference betwéene some about the Popes or Councels superioritie before the Florentine Councell which by your owne confession here cap. 6. pag. 70. resolued the matter But your differences we say are with diuision with pertinacie without end a generall Councell can not finish them yea to nourish them for euer your very doctrine is that in Church or Generall Councell is no authoritie of such importance 36 Owners and keepers of the Scriptures Moti 8.30 Articl 2.3 My next Demaund to the Protestantes is S. Augustines Demaund to the Manichies which D. Allen doth prosequute in two Articles And it is grounded vpon the foresaide authoritie of the Church Aug. cōtra Ep. Fund ca. 5. If thou shouldest meete with one saith S. Augustine to a Manichee who doth not yet beleeue the bookes of the Gospell what wouldest thou doo to him saying vnto thee Non credo I do not beleeue them As of his owne selfe he there sayth Ego vero Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas I verily shoulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the Catholike Churches authoritie did make me And then he gathereth therevppon and asketh Quibus ergo obtemperaui dicentibus crede Euangelio cur eis non obtemperem dicentibus mihi Noli credere Manichaeo Those therefore to whom I obeyed saying Beleeue the Gospell Why should I not obey the same men saying vnto me Do not beleeue Manicheus do not beléeue Luther Nowe to this what shifte hath Fulke He can not denie but that our Demaunde is vpon that Churth whiche is called Catholike nowe according to my sixte Demaunde pag. 227. as S. Augustines Demaunde was vpon that Church whiche was called Catholike then and as muche maligned of those Manichees as nowe of these Protestantes Neither can hee shewe but that as it hath still the same name so it is still the same Churche as I haue defended agaynst all his vayne Cauilles eyther out of the Scriptures cap. 8. pag. 124. or out of the Doctors cap. 9. pag. 155. And therefore béeing still all one Churche you shall sée if you marke that he sayth in his aunswere nothing of the one but it is common to the other and that it is all one for vs to frame our Demaund of the Catholike Church then Ar. 10. and of the Catholike Church now For thus he sayth The Primitiue Churches testimonie of the worde of God we allowe and beleeue But I deny that the Primitiue Church dyd affirme Luther to be an Heretike or the doctrine which he taught which we holde to be Heresie Here you denie it but in other places you confesse it where you graunt that they affirmed Aerius to bee an Heretike for denying prayer for the dead and were fayne therevpon to take exception against the same Primitiue Church by your colde shift of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 79. Tell vs then we say why we should obey the same Primitiue Church commaunding vs to beleue the Gospell and not obey it commaunding vs not to beléeue Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius c. cap. 3. pag. 9. to 14. and consequently not to beleue Luther nor to care for all your carping in these two Artiticles of her Images and Inuocation of Saintes of her Sacrifice of her estimation of Customes Traditions writings of Doctors Decrees of Popes and Councels of her auncient Latine Translation of her corrupting either of the text of the Testament or of the true Religion conteined therein of her not translating of the Scriptures into all vulgar tongues of her workes of supererogation Abbeys Priories and Chauntries For touching all these things either it is euident in it selfe or in sundry places eyther you haue confessed or I haue proued or at least I haue defended that they were the Primitiue Churches also no lesse
of all the Saintes as you may also sée in the Councell of Trent Another poynt of your great skil is where to supply D. Allens lacke Pur. 12. you bring forsooth the right definition or description of an Heretike and say that an Heretike is a man in the Church c. Wherof what pretie conclusions do folow you may consider as because Papistes be Heretikes with you Ministerlike conclusions of Fulke therefore they be in the Church item Anabaptistes Seruetians c. and of old the Arrians Pelagians c. againe on the contrarie side because these are not nor were not by you in the Church therefore they be not Heretikes It foloweth in your definition That obstinatly mainteineth an opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the Scriptures And then you adde Which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared but condemned for Heretikes We say to you the same of any of vs also But you should haue defined also who is obstinate You bring no Scripture against vs but we answere it clearely much lesse do you proue vs to be obstinate But we bring playne Scriptures against you to proue that also the doctrine of the Apostles Traditions is the doctrine of the Scriptures with very many particular pointes of controuersie expresly against you as namely that neither the Church of Christ should euer flye out of sight much lesse any thing neare the yere 607. nor Antichrist reigne so long as from that time nor the day of Iudgement to be so long after the cōming of Antichrist Againe for the Real presence This is my body and so forth And if you also goe about to answere some of our Scriptures it is no otherwise then the Arrians Pelagians c. did in old time who notwithstanding were obstinate against the truth because they yéelded not neither when the Church had giuen her sentence So do we proue you to be obstinate much more then any because you neither yéeld after sentence and also do hold that the Church hath no such authoritie to end contentions Your ignorance in so wondering at D. Allen for saying that a Christian Scholer should first beléeue and after séeke for vnderstanding I noted before cap. 10. Dem. 34. Of the like ignorance it is where you wonder to heare that the Sacrifice of the Masse is a likenesse of the Sacrifice of Christes death vpon the Crosse and say Pur. 200. that it is contrarie to the whole a See here cap. 10. Dem. 24. scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be now any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come As though we had now no Sacramentes at all Do you not know that all Sacramentes be liknesses of other things as S. Augustine whom your selfe somewhere alleage saith Si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem c. Aug. ep 23. Pur. 292. Sup. de 24. For if Sacramentes had not a certayne likenes of those thinges whose Sacramentes they be they should not at al be Sacraments And so you may remember that S. Paule him selfe will haue Baptisme to be a likenes or similitude of Christes death Rom. 6. buriall and resurrection As againe S. Augustine in the foresayd place noteth that it is truely sayed Christum immolari quotidie in Sacramento Christ to be sacrificed euery day in the Sacrament although he were but once sacrificed in seipso in him selfe that is in his owne visible and not sacramentall forme because of the likenes in the Sacrament to that immolation vpon the Crosse For there was visible seperation of his Body and Bloud the one from the other Here is mysticall or sacramentall seperation of the same as the sacramentall wordes doe signifie And therefore this seperation is but like to that if we attende the maner of both and yet it is the very same seperation if we attend the thinges that were and are seperated Which D. Allen vttered very aptly in these few wordes It is the selfe same in another maner Pur. 198.201 Whereunto you say that Euery boye in Oxford can tell him that by Logicke like is not the same An high point D. Allen knew it not How then did he say in another maner Did he not thereby geue you the meaning of that Logicall Principle to wit that like is not the same with the same maner But otherwise what boye hath not heard it sayd of one and the same man being chaunged by age sicknes apparell shauing c. He is like or vnlike him selfe Against so playne a declaration you could not replye and yet you must néedes say something but yet that which neither boy nor man nor your selfe can vnderstand This it is to say It is the selfe same in another maner will not helpe so long as the same respect remaineth Which same respect I pray you for I am not so quicke to vnderstand him who vnderstandeth not him selfe For who can imagine that the very same respect remaineth when the same maner doth not remayne Pur. 20.21 Againe where you attribute that to diuorsement which the Scripture in many places both a Mat. 5. Mar. 10. Luc. 16. ◠Cor. 7. deny to diuorsement and doth b Rom. 7. attribute only to death to wit to make her no wife that was a wife there you vtter your great skill in many matters As in saying that such mariage after diuorsement is dispensed withall by the Pope Item that the Popes Canon Law hath farre many more causes of diuorsement then for adulterie which only Christ alloweth and we Mat. 5. quoth you As though also the Canon Law allow not that onely as a cause of perpetuall diuorse in such sort that if the Adulterer become afterwardes neuer so chast yet the innocent cannot be compelled to receaue him againe But otherwise if the mans furie be such that the wife in his house is in continuall feare daunger of her life doe not you also allow her to dwell away from him vntill such time as his amendment doe appeare sufficiently Item you speake there as though Moyses iudiciall Law ought to be still obserued Leu. 20. We wish that adulterers were punished as God commaunded in his Law it followeth and then the other question of Mariages were soone answered As though the man were punished by death if he sinned against his wife with a single woman If not how then is the question of his wiues Mariage with another resolued by his punishment Such is your skill in the Law I note here your ignorance but I mislike not your moderation in saying we wish Why then doe I charge you with such an opinion of that Law For this that you there charge the Catholikes to allow dispensation for such persons to marrie as the Law of God and nature abhorreth What Law of God doe you meane but Leui. 18 Doe you thinke then that Law to binde Christians and that so straightly as neyther to
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie