Selected quad for the lemma: tradition_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
tradition_n	father_n	holy_a	scripture_n	2,746	5	5.8863	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88105	Light for smoke: or, A cleare and distinct reply by Iohn Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster, to a darke and confused answer in a booke made, and intituled The smoke in the temple, by Iohn Saltmarsh, late preacher at Brasteed in Kent, now revolted both from his pastorall calling and charge. Whereto is added, Novello-mastix, or a scourge for a scurrilous news-monger.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.; C. D. Novello-mastix.	1646 (1646)	Wing L1883; Thomason E333_2; Thomason E333_3; ESTC R200742	90,377	128

rather against then among the Presbyteriall positions you f Smoke in the Temple p. 9. say That Baptisme is not to be received by generation now as Circumcision was but by regeneration or visible profession as at first nor are the carnall seed now any more the children of Abraham but the faithfull and that no Ordinance is now to be administred upon legall consequences but on Gospel precepts and of Master Tombes his booke in answer to my objection concerning the delay of Baptisme by Christs example you say thus g Ibid. in your answer to me p. 37. I cannot dispute that here now Master Tombs will sat is fie you at large in his learned Examen where he hath made worke for an whole Assembly wherein to give you a word by the way you are much mistaken both in the man and in the matter and you will see cause within a while to conceive otherwise of both then now you doe and that there lieth no obligation either of necessitie or of conveniencie upon the Assembly which may engage them to the examination of his Examen Nor is Master T. with his most compleat armour so formidable a champion as that there should need an army of Divines to be mustered against him there be divers Davids who are ready for single encounter with that braving Goliah and some have given his cause such a wound already as though he may play the Mountebanke with it and skin it over will never be cured at the bottome But this onely obiter passing by him and his booke as a parenthesis or parergon to that which is before me at the present I must follow you a little further and see whether tracing the steps of your opinions by the print of your pen I can overtake you and at last find you in any place or posture of consistence or settlement In your Discovery of Independencie you deliver down-right Anabaptisme in many particulars without any word of exception or caution to your Reader as that h Smoke p. 10 11. h Smoke p. 10 11. Those who were baptized under Prelacy were baptized by an Antichristian power and that they are no right baptized members of Churches That all consequences drawne from circumcision are of no more force then from the Cloud and the Sea and the Rock and Noahs Arke and other typicall and figurative places in the Word yet by your leave from some of these there may be a good consequence to baptisme of infants nor can any legall or probable Scriptures make any law or rule for any such Gospel administration which is not directly in Scripture words to be found That childrens Baptisme in the Church is a way never to have a Church of such baptized beleevers as in the Apostles times That Baptisme being a visible signe cannot rationally be administred upon one that can neither see nor discerne what is done to whom the water can be no signe but they are onely told of it when they come to age Baptisme is as a flash of lightning as was well observed by one Circumcision was as a fixed starre so much difference in these two rites Institution of Baptisme is to duty as well as grace which children cannot performe and so answer the signe Institution of Baptisme is doctrinal in the very act of it as is acknowledged by all of the present Baptisme Matth. 28. now this implyes a capable and teachable subject You have other positions symbolizing with the sect of Anabaptists but I note onely those which have neerest congruitie to the title of that Sect. While such opinions as these which you seeme rather to confirme then to confute incline me to take you for an Anabaptist I am induced to doubt whether you be not somewhat else somewhat worse by such exceptions as i Smoke in the Temple p. 13 14 15. these First That Matth. 28.18 it should be vers 19. and Mark 16 c. are rather and farre more probably to be expounded of the Spirits Baptisme then of Baptisme by water Secondly That the Baptisme of Iesus Christ by water was onely in the Name of Iesus Christ Thirdly That the forme by which they Baptize viz. ●●aptize thee in the Name of the Father Son and holy Ghost is a forme of mans devising a tradition of man a meere consequence drawne from supposition and probabilitie and not a forme left by Christ Fourthly That to preach in the Name of Iesus Christ or to do any thing in the name of Iesus Christ is not alwaies in that grosse manner as it is taken viz. naming Iesus Christ or the naming of the Father Sonne and holy Ghost over them but in the power vertue efficacie Ministerie of Iesus Christ or the Persons of the Godhead the Father Sonne and holy Ghost Fifthly k Pag. 17. That none ought to give Baptisme now because none can give the gift of the holy Ghost Sixthly l Pag. 18. That the fulnesse of time is not yet come for ordinances for as there were severall seasons for giving out of truth before so now The next Title under which you sort the opinions of these times into severall professions is of seeking and seekers and there besides other new Doctrines which you deliver you say that m Pag. 17. all shall in the last times be in a secret invisible inward and spirituall glory no more in grosse carnall visible evidences materiall beames of gifts miracles this is to know Christ no more after the flesh which cannot be the meaning of the Apostles words 2 Cor. 5.16 for gifts and miracles continued after the time that he wrote those words but either that he did not conceive of Christ as of a temporall King as the Disciples sometimes did Luk. 24.21 Act. 1.6 and our Saviour himselfe denyed Joh. 18.36 or that his affections to Christ were not such as theirs that had conversed with him in the flesh and had been taken onely or chiefly with the comeltnesse of his person or had the sensible evidence of his miracles or had a carnall conviction of his resurrection as Thomas Didymus had Joh. 20.27 but that he did spiritually participate and communicate with him deriving life and vertue from him as the members from the head as where he saith I live yet not I but Christ liveth in me and the life which I now live I live by the faith of the Sonne of God who loved me and gave himselfe for me Gal. 2.20 Another position which you give out among the exceptions to the way of Seekers which to orthodox Divines is a meere paradox is n Pag. 18. that there is no such power for ordinances as is pretended but beleevers as disciples may administer and so did the Apostles and beleevers formerly as they were disciples I looked to have found the Antinomian Tenets among the rest which you report but your silence concerning them in a place whereto their discovery was so seasonable and pertinent is thought by some

conscience nothing with a doubting conscience nothing at all which hath not warrant from the Word either in generall principles or particular conclusions and it serves likewise to shut out meere humane inventions from the worship of God and the luxuriant fruitfulnesse of humane fancie against which the Ancient and Orthodoxe a Tert. depraescript advers haeret Hilar. in Psal 132. Hieron contra Helvid Aug. contra Petil. l. 3. c. 6. Doctors have given many cautions which Protestant Writers pertinently bring in against Popish Traditions and additions thereto But makes nothing either against the States establishing of the Presbyteriall Government nor against the peoples yeelding to it for want of faith since for a great part of it it is grounded on the Word of God and is in no part of it repugnant to it SECT IIII. Mr. Saltm his unequall dealing in distributing his owne and his adversaries worke The Presbyterie not like Prelacie in unwarrantablenesse by the word of God Of Prudence how for of lawfull use in Religious matters Smoke Pag. 20. NOw you are to prove more then perhaps you thought on that is to cleare a Church Covenant which many of your way are against for though you condemne it in some Churches yet a Nationall Church-Covenant you plead for Light By what law would you put me to cleare a Church-covenant it is no part of my worke in the taske I undertooke and if you may decline discussing the imposition of Protestations as you do in the next precedent paragraph though mentioned by me as a proofe against you and as you doe the objection made from the deferring of our Saviours Baptisme till he was about thirtie yeers of age h Smoke p. 37. as you doe likewise in the further prosecution of your Reply why should you take upon you to appoint me an impertinent worke and which is more that which is repugnant to my judgement for you say it is to cleare a Church-covenant which is rather your office then mine who thinke it fitter to be accused then cleared Smoke Pag. 20 21. You grant that the Government is but in some parts warrantable by the word of God so was Episcopacy and Prelacy in some parts of it there is not any false worship or way but it hath some parts of truth in it the great image had a head of gold c. truth must be all one and the same and homogencall not in parts Light You allow your selfe too much libertie in changing my words which have their weight and pertinency from whence if you vary you marre the matter I said not the Government is but in some parts warrantable by the word of God but in the chiefe parts which you will not say of Prelacy for that consisteth in being chiefe in assuming a Lordly preeminence over their brethren of the Ministery but the chiefe parts of the Presbyteriall Government have their warrant in the word and why not the rest Besides it is not enough to have some parts or the chiefe parts of government warrantable by the word of God but it must be in no part contrary to the word of God and so we may say of Presbytery not so of Prelacie You say truth must be all one and the same homogencall in all parts that is if you speake to the point all truth must be onely Scripture truth but hath not the light of nature taught the heathens many truths who never saw the Scripture and is any government reduced to practice without some prudentiall supplyes in divers particulars wherein the Scripture is silent as for the Elders in a Congregation how many they should be whether perpetuall or annuall and what their qualifications should be for the measure of knowledge and other abilities and whether they should be maintained at the charge of the Church and there are many Queries concerning the particulars of the Deacons office which cannot be resolved by any direction of the written word Smoke Pag. 21. Nor are grounds of prudence any Scripture grounds to rule by prudence hath let in more will-worship then any thing Prelacie had its prudence for every new additionall in worship and government and if Presbytery like prudence too let the Reader iudge what may follow Light There is prudence which in the habit is an endowment from God in the exercise a dutie from man Matth. 10.16 whereby every ordinance of God is to be ordered to the best advantage for his honour and the edification of his people Opposite to this on the one hand is the corrupt and pragmaticall policie of such as when they professe themselves wise they become fooles Rom. 1.22 and such are they who pretend to perfect the Church of God by their inventions and traditions and there is on the other hand a neglect and contempt of prudence which hath brought a contemptible confusion upon the profession of Religion and this is most found among the sects most opposite to Presbytery Smoke Pag. 21. And what is that not directly from Scripture yet not repugnant surely Christs rule is not such he opposes any tradition to the command of God net directly from Scriptures is repugnant to Scriptures such is the onenesse intirenesse indivisibilitie and essentialitie of the truth He that is not with me is against me Light Not directly from Scripture say you is repugnant to Scripture if you meane it universally it is false as the precedent particulars doe evince if you meane it of the substantials of faith and practice you say true but not to the purpose of such as these is the authoritie of our Saviour He that is not with me is against me Matth. 12.30 but of circumstantials it is sound he that is not against me is with me Mar. 9.40 And though it be for the honour of the word to be received for a rule of Religion both affirmatively and negatively yet to wring it and wrest it to serve all turnes where God meant to leave men to prudentiall accommodation of times persons places and occasions is to abuse and dishonour it and so doe most of those who pretend most to magnifie the majestie of the word Smoke Pag. 21. And for the Reformed Churches as a rule that is to set the Sunne by the Diall and not the Diall by the Sunne we must set the Churches by the word and not Church by Church and the word by the Church Light The Reformed Churches are not onely as the Diall to the Sun but as the clocke to the Diall and the word as the Sunne to both when the Sunne doth not shine nor the diall give a shadow the clocke must be heeded for the houre of the day and sometimes one clocke may be a direction to another and though one individuall person or Church hath not power over another yet many may have power over one for the spirit of the Prophets is subie●t to the Prophets 1 Cor 14.32 and whether they have rule power over each other or no one Church may

as Irenaeus Epiphanius Philastrius Brixlensit and Augustine of old or any later Haeresiographers have set them forth but if you cannot doe this as I know you cannot with what conscience do you give out a suspition or insinuation of such abominable guilt what an ungodly guile is this how far from the Christian charitie of a man pretending the spirit of meeknesse and moderation as you doe a Smoke p. 2. nu 3. Let a spirit of meeknesse say you runne in the Artery of Preaching and Printing how farre from finceritie to raise such a smoke of infamie and reproach upon the reputation of him whom you style sometimes b In the Inscription of your Letter a Friend sometimes c Smoke p. 26. a Brother and to whom you professe a threefold respect for his age learning and place in your Letter unto him this s●rely is the beame in your eye d Your Letter to me p. b. you spake of while you are curious to take out the mote in mine eye and for that you say of Independencie worse thought of then Treason Blasphemie Idolatrie Atheisme c. I know no Presbyterian that thinks so of Independencie ut sic abstractively but considering the concurrence of many dangerous and damnable opinions with it and their protection and propagation by it it may perhaps be truly said that Independencie extensively comprehensively and effectively though not formally or intensively may be worso then other errouts or heresies forced under that supposed golden head or embraced in its ●●ver 〈◊〉 though they be at the best but as the belly and thighs of brasse and at the worst as legges of iron and feet in part of iron in part of clay as in Nebuchadnezzars Image Dan. 2. vers 32 33. I should require and expect your ingenuous acknowledgement of this injurious and uncharitable charge but that you have directed me to another remedie of the wrong you doe me where you say in your Epistle to me If you finde any passions in my Booke charge them upon mine unregenerate part for I finde that when I would doe good evill is present with me According to this distinction a female disciple of some Antinomian Teacher who would be thought too good a Christian to be a member of any Congregation that met in a Steeple-house made her evasion from an accusation of these for when her Mistresse charged her for stealing her linnens and other things which she found in her chest or trunck she denied that she stole them and when she asked how came they to be laid and locked up there Did not you doe this No said she It was not I but sinne that dwelleth in me That this is no tale fained or taken up on trust to reproach such professours as pretend to an extraordinarie straine of Evangelicall perfection but a true storie will be made good by evidence beyond exception to such as shall question the truth thereof But whether true or false you will haply say what is this to you Truly so much as her excuse for her theeverie hath the more conformitie with your excuse for your calumnie but I bring it in but occasionally and it is more pertinent I confesse to mind you of your owne faults then of others Smoke Pag. 59. You say you will conclude with my Politicks c. The Answer to this see in the Epistle SECT XXIX The charge of misapplication of Revel 18.1 iustified against Mr. Saltm his deniall The expectation of new lights which some Sectaries teach Papisticall fallacious and dangerous Smoke Pag. 59. YOu say of my Text Revel 18.1 that at I began so I and with misapplication of Scripture Misapplication is a word sooner writ then proved and my resons were rather crowded then ordered in my paper the Scripture was this For the Angel that came downe from heaven hath great power and the earth is lightned with his glory Light If you would cleare the Scripture from misapplication you must shew how it came in with a for as a reason of the precedent passage your next words before it are The Gospel dares walke abroad with boldnesse and simplicity when traditions of men like melancholy people feare every thing they meet will kill them and then immediately not a word betweene you say For the Angel that comes downe from heaven hath great power and the earth is lightned with his glory If this be not a misapplication of Scripture I adde further if it be not an absurd one and your defence of it ridiculously vaine and your appeale to the Reader a presumption that you take him to be very stupid or so fond as to follow you in all you say with an implicit faith let the judicious and impartiall Reader judge Smoke Pag. 59. Which Scripture there applied doth hint to any that will not rather cavill then interpret that my reason for delay of Government was in this An Angel was yet to come Light You said before your reasons were rather crowded then ordered though I know not why you should put your selfe into such a precipitation of haste If so it is not strange they should be misplaced and those cast behind which should come before as in a crowd it falleth out And truly for this testimonie and the reason of it with what went afore it it comes in a great deale too late to be pertinently applied for you had ended your reasons such as they were for the delay of Government a good while before and now were at the end of your second Objection where there was roome enough before you loosed your Pen from Paper to have made a reference of that Text to its proper place and to have told your Reader what you meant by it as now you doe and then I should have told you that that Text is as much misapplied for want of truth had it come in where it might seeme to be most certaine as here for want of sense and sutablenesse to the precedent words For The Government of the Church is as you have acknowledged before a Scripture Government and unlesse you waite for an Angel from heaven to bring another Gospel who by the doome of the Apostle should he come should be welcomed with a curse Gal. 1.8 you must not looke for another Gospel Government if you refuse the Scripture light in expectation of Evangelicall Revelations take heed you comply not with the Papists whom you pretend to abhorre making a Bellarm. de notis Eccles Tom. 2. l. 4. c. 15. p. 278. Propheticall light or revelation a note of the Church and pretending Revelations from b Legend aur fol. 255. p. 1. col 1. Portifer seu Breviar in usum Eccles Satisbur part Estrval in Festum S ri Egid. Sept. 1. lect 9. printed Paris pervid Francisc Regnault an 1555. Thelmes of the Saints out of Villegas Ribad vol. 1. part 1. p. 87 88 98. Angels And if you say your Brethren the Anabaptists have their revelations and many