Gods worde or authorities of scriptures but such as is so pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them as euery man may see the holy Ghost neuer ment any such thinge as they gather of them 3 Holde on vpwarde still and Tertullian will witnesse with thee that in that floure of Christes Church with in lesse then CC. yeares of our maisters death Oblationes fiebant annua die pro defunctis That oblations and sacrifice were yearly made at the xij monthes mindes of most men he meaneth both by the sacrifice of the Church and offeringes of the freindes of the departed as there also Repete apud Deum pro cuius spiritu postules pro qua oblationes annuas reddas Call to thy remembraunce for whose soule thou prayes and in whose behalfe thou makes yearly offeringes He speaketh of a freinde of his that practised thus for his wiues departure And in an other place he well declareth the duety of maried persons one towards an other if God by death separate them in sonder Pro anima eius orat refrigerium interim postulat offert annuis diebus dormitionis eius She prayeth for her husbandes soule and obteineth in the meane space ease and offereth euery yeare at the mind day of his passing hense And he letteth not to affirme that the maried couple that practise not thus do not beleue the resurrection Therefore he concludeth thus Nunquid nihil erimus post mortem secundum aliquem Epicurum non secundum Christum quòd si credimus mortuorum resurrectionem vtique tenebimur cum quibus resurrecturi sumus rationem de altetutro reddituri VVhat say you shall we fall to nothing after our death as the Epicure thinketh and not rise againe as Christ teacheth And if we beleue the resurrection of the deade then doubtlesse we shall be bounde to make accompt one of an other as we shall together rise againe Beware here my maisters once againe I must tell you you are going towardes the deniall of the resurrection so many as condemne the vsage of the Church in praying or offeringe for the deade Tertullian sayth you be Epicures in this point and so you be in all others I say you are past priuy muttering in your heartes that there is no God for you are come to plaine Manducemus bibamus cras enim moriemur Let vs eate and be mery we can not tell how longe we lieue I say you must aunswere for parting the affection of man and wife and the one must be countable at the day of iudgement to an other that they procured not the dueties of the deade by right of Gods holy Church for their soules departed Take heede therefore you are warned 3 Nay ho there M. Allen no higher then Tertullian And when we haue examined the testimonies of Tertullian in order as you haue brought them you shall haue small aduantage out of him yea your friendes shall thinke you had bene better to haue made no mention of him For first I must tell you that these three lines which are all that he hath written sounding that way are found in three bookes which all were written by him when he was an heretike separated from the catholike Church And therefore it may well be that all that he speaketh of prayers and oblations for the deade was onely in the conuenticles of the Montanistes of which sect he was an earnest defender rather then in the catholike Church And this coniecture seemeth the more probable because Cyprian which was afterward a catholike Bishop in the same city where Tertullian sometime had liued maketh no mention of prayers for the dead but onely of sacrifice for the Martyrs which was none other but the sacrifice of thankesgiuing lib. 4. Ep. 5. But admit that the Church of God in that time vsed these superstitious prayers and oblations for the deade let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed The firsâ— place M. Allen allegeth in this forme Oblationes fiebant annua die pro defunctis But Tertullians wordes in libro de corona militis be these Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitijs annua die facimus We make oblations for the dead for our birthes on the yearly day By which it is euident that M. Allen did not read these wordâ—s him selfe but receiued them of some other mans collection or sound them in some booke of common places But to the matter Tertullian him selfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth hath no ground in the holy Scripture Harum aliarum eiusmodi disciplinarum si leges expostules scripturarum nullam inuenies traditio tibi praetendetur autrix consuetudo confirmatrix fides obseruatrix Of those and such like disciplines if you require the lawes of the Scriptures you shall finde none tradition shall be pretended to you to be the author Custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer It is good to take that which is so franckly giuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his errour not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wreâ—t the Scriptures to find that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them I knowe the Papistes will aunswere that tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written But why then doe they not obserue all other things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be tradition if tradition be the word of God why doe they not giue to them that are newly baptised a temper of milke and hony and from the day of their baptisme forbid dayly washing all the weeke after Why doe they not count it a wicked thinge to fast on the Sunday or to pray and worship God on their knees Why doe they not count it a wicked thinge to fast betwene Easter Whitsontide or to pray on their knees all that time Finally why doe not they crosse them selues in the forehead at euery steppe they set forth at comming in at going out at putting on of garmentes at putting on of shoes at washing at the tables at lighting of candles at beddes at stooles and at all thinges what so euer they doe What aunswere can they here make but that their Church may dispense as well with the word of God vnwritten which they cal tradition as she doth against the word of God conteyned in the holy Scriptures So that alwayes what so euer they prate of antiquitie customs traditions vnwritten verities or the word of God vnwritten the authority of their blasphemous church is aboue them all Now to the second testimony alleged out of Tertullian S. Ieronym shall testifie for vs that this booke as the other that followeth was written against the Church so was also his booke de corona militis when he was out of the Church whereby it may
God they are now bestowed according to their founders intent For they that serue the aultar of God must needes pull downe the aultars of idolls And if any portions that were taken from the world be gone to the worldely agayne I meane the Abbies and their landes it is the iust plague of God vpon them that vnder hypocrisie of forsaking the world liued not like men of the world but like deuills of hell And whereas you aske agayne if any man would take from his owne wife children to bestow vppon Priestes wiues and children I haue aunswered before that the chiefe collegiat Churches in England were first inhabited of married Priestes which taught sounder doctrine and liued a more chast life then the Epicureous Monkes that succeeded them I might aske of you M. Allen if they meant not to mainteyne Priestes wiues their children whether they ment rather to mainteyne Priestes whores their bastardes Byshops brothells and their minions Sodom and Gomor of Monkes Fryers it was neither Cutberd VVilliam nor VVilfryde wether they were holy or superstitious but the prouidence of God that appointed such portion as the Church now enioyeth if the same by any meanes should be taken from them yet God hath appointed that they which preach the Gospell shall liue of the Gospell We are not so carefull of worldly liuelihood as you knowing your owne disease imagine that we should be that we would come into your filthy Synagoge to winne Cardinalls hatts or Archbishops palls some of vs if they had sought worldly promotion by abusing their learning wittes to the maintenaūce of your horrible heresies needed not to haue come frō you to seke preferment among the Protestants which you know is neither so great nor so easy to come by as among the Papists 8 But let them on thinke on these matters them selues I will turne againe to my purpose although I can not goe farre from my matter so longe as I am in the beholdinge of that faith which our first preachers brought vnto vs at our first conuersion or in any steppe of the antiquitie which we well perceiue to be the fructe only of that doctrine which we haue declared and an euident testimony of so vndoubted a trueth I thinke there is no way so certaine for the contentation of a mans selfe in this time of doubting and diuersitie in doctrine as in all matters to haue an eye towards the faith which we receiued when we were first conuerted And for that point I woulde wishe that S. Bedes history were familiar vnto all men that hath vnderstanding of the Latine tongue and to all other if it were possible for there shall they plainely see the first beginning the increase the continuance the practise the workes proceding out of the catholike faith feare not that is the trueth for that was the first and that was grounded by Gods worde and openly confirmed by miracle And that point must be considered not onely for our owne countrie but for all others that be or hath bene Christianed For into the selfe same faith were they first ingraffed also as by the peculiar practising of euery good man towardes his freinde and louer I haue already declared and nowe for the generall vsage of Gods Church the reader shall at large perceiue that nothing may wante to our cause whereby any trueth or light may be had 8 The conclusion of your chapter is a recourse to the beginning you thinke it is the suerest way to looke to that faith in all poyntes which this land first receiued If men should follow your counsell as in some things they should follow your faith which you now teach so in many poynts namely in that which you coūt the chiefe the reall presence of the naturall body of Christ they should go as farre from that you teach nowe as you would haue them come neare some things that were receiued thē And wheras you wish that Bedes history for that purpose were made familiar and some of you in deede haue taken paynes to translate it into English they that list not to be deceiued but to see into what faith all nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles they were better to consider the word of God and the history of the actes of the Apostles which if you durst abyde the tryall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latine And if you were as zealous to sette forth the glory of God as you are earnest to mainteyne your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so longe founde faulte with our translations of the scripture woulde haue taken paines to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke or else to write such bables as you doe M. Allen and all the packe of you but all in vayn◠to shadowe the same whose right shoulde easely discusse all clowdes of darke doctrine and the more it is impugned the more bright shall it shewe and the more it is compared with darkenesse the more glorious it shall appeare That in euery ordre or vsage of celebration of the blessed sacrament and Sacrifice through out the Christian vvorlde since Christes time there hath bene a solemne supplication for the soules departed CAP. XI 1 THerefore let vs see howe the Church our mother of her piety vseth generall supplication in all seruice and solemne administration of the blessed sacramēt euen for those whose freindes haue forgotten them whose paines and trauell worldely men remembre not whose obscure condicion of life or pouerty woulde not suffer them to procure prayers by their knowen deedes of charity or almes Those men I say that doe lacke singular patronage of their freindes those hath she remembred in the rites of celebration vsed in all countries and in euery age sithens the Apostles dayes VVhich ordres of diuine seruice as they haue bene diuers in forme of wordes so they perfectly and wholy agreed in the substance of the sacrifice in praying and offering for the deade and supplication to sainctes as thou shalt straight wayes by their vsed ordre of wordes perceiue And as we goe forwarde herein euer let vs beare this rule in minde Quòd legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi in that sense speaketh S. Augustine often against heretikes the ordre of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescriptiō for all the faithfull what to beleue And the motherly affection that the Church beareth towardes all her children departed the saide doctor thus expresseth Non sunt praetermittendae supplicationes pro spiritibus mortuorum quas faciēdas pro omnibus in Christiana Catholica societate defunctis etiam tacitis nominibus quorumcūque sub generali cōmemoratione suscepit ecclesia vt quibus ad ista desunt parentes aut filij aut quicunque cognati vel amici ab vna eis exhibeantur pia matro cōmuni That is to say in our tongue Prayer must not be omitted for the
Scriptures nor in the most auncient writers that lyued with in an hundreth yeares and more after the time of christ And to the particuler practise of the later times we aunswere that it is not sufficient to controll the auncient doctrine and primer practise If we be required to shew some place of any auncient writer which denyeth purgatory or prayers for the deade we haue already shewed that Augustine some time doth doubt whether there be purgatory some time affirmeth there is no meane or thirde place but heauen for the elect and hell for the reprobate likewise for praying or satisfying for the deade we haue alleaged Cyprian and others your owne common law out of Hieronym sayth that the prayers of the liuing profit not the deade 13. quaest 2. In praesenti saeculo c. In this present worlde we knowe that one of vs may be helped of an other either by prayers or by counsells but when we shoulde come before the iudgement seate of Christ neither Iob nor Daniel nor Noe can intreate for any man but euery man must beare his owne burthen Yea Gelasius the Pope sayth that no man can be absolued of the Pope after his death 24. q. 2. C. legatur Wherefore serue the Popes pardons then To that which is required of the expresse word of God forbidding prayers for the deade we aunswere that all places of scripture that forbidde prayers without fayth forbidde prayer for the deade for faith is not euery mans vaine perswasion but an assurance out of the worde of God which because we can not haue in praying for the dead therefore we are forbidden to praye for them If it be against the hope of Christians to morne for the deade much more it is against the fayth and hope of Christians to praye for them For by our prayer we suppose them to be in misery whome the worde of God doth testifie to be in happines to be at rest to be with Christ Iohn 17. Apoc. 14. And as for a place so expounded by an auncient writer I will seeke no farther then the place of Hieronym euen now alleaged out of your owne canon lawe vppon 2. Cor. 5. referring the reader to many other places alleaged in this aunswere as out of Cyprian Origene and others by which the intollerable lying bragging and rayling of this miscreant shal be better confuted then by any contradiction of wordes And where as he sayeth we chalenge the olde doctors before the simple for our partakers whether they be simple or wise before whom we speake as we speake not alwayes before the simple onely but often times and commonly before as wise and well learned men as M. Allen we neuer make any such challenge of them as the Papistes doe which offer to stand to their iudgement in all thinges and yet in most thinges yea in the cheefest pointes of religion that be so in deede or be so compted of them they are contrary to the doctors and olde councells for which cause and not for confirmation of trueth we alleage the authoritie of men for we haue learned as Augustine sayth to geue this honor only to the canonicall scriptures that we must beleue them with out controuersie and all other writings we receiue so farre as they agree with the scriptures and not other wise wherefore we doe not onely saye that the doctors haue erred like men but we haue proued it so that the Papistes them selues can not saye naye for shame But to that he sayth we doe boldely condemne the holy Scriptures that it out of all measure impudent and sclaunderous And that which he citeth out of Irenaeus belike as he had it of some foolish priest that fedde him with notes of doctors or as he is impudent enough to peruerte the fathers meaning him selfe so if he had alleged the whole sentence he might well haue taken him selfe and the rest of his fellowes by the noses for heretikes by the iudgemeÌ„t of Irenaeus whose wordes be these Cum enim ex scripturis arguantur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum scripturarum quasi non rectè habâ—ant neque sit ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciant traditionem non enim per literas traditam illam sed per viuam vocem When they be confuted by the scriptures they are turned into the accusation of the scriptures them selues as though they were not well nor of sufficient authority both because the trueth can not be founde of them which knowe not the tradition for that was not deliuered by writing but by worde of mouth How saye you M Allen who is an heretike by Irenaeus iudgement who accuseth the scriptures as though they were not of sufficient authority who sayth the scriptures are like a nose of waxe who saye the trueth can not be founde in scriptures without tradition of vnwritten verities In good sooth M. Allen you haue the worst grace of any that euer I knew in alleaging the sentences of the doctors for you alleage fewe or none but either in whole or in parte they make against you 9 But if you thinke that I feane of them you shall see what shamefull shiftes the maisters and captaines of the contrary assertion haue deuised for the defense of them selues I dare say if the studious be but any whit indiffereÌ„t he will leaue their sâ—hoole for euer The chiefe Captaine of all these contentious heades like an vnshamefast childe affiâ—meth that the doctors praysed and followed the common errors of the ignorant people in almes and prayers for the departed Brentius aunswereth that Tertullian making mention of yearly oblations for the deceased tooke his error of the hethen vsage of the gentility And Augustine he saith affirmed purgatory prayers and almes for them for the affiance that he had in mens merites towardes the remission of sinnes Melancthon as though he were no man that might orre him selfe sayth the doctors were men and discented amongest them selues As for the vsage of any celebration in the worlde what roume can it haue with these champians when Câ—luin confesseth in plaine termes that the celebration of the Sacrament hath bene contaminated euen in a maner sith the Apostles time and first planting of our religion and to reduce it to the puritie againe the man frames a newe one of his owne so farre from superstition that it hath no steppe of religion or true worship of god But well the worde of God is yet safe with them there a man may holde them No surely they are as â—alsie with the very scripture it selfe when so euer it maketh against them Brentius before named is not ashamed to saye that he pardoneth the author of the Machabeis of his error and ignorance And that thou may see the perfect image of a prowde heretike Caluin sayth thus as for the booke of the Machabeis I will not vouâ—hsalfe to make aunswere to it Mercifull God what faithfull
full of posing M. Protestant as though you were Iohannes ad oppositum I wil pose you M. Allen an other while or any M. Papiste of you all that hath a forheade to mainteine this trumperie for Clemenâ— the auncient Bishoppes writing Alas Syr what if this be proued counterfect that you saye is so olde and you with out peraduenture lye that of late haue founde it so auncient what grounde haue your schollers then Tertullian hath discharged you of authority of the scripture already how will you proue it then to be a tradition of the Apostles your aunswere wil be still Clenens sayth it But alacke Sir whether is it more licke that Eusebius and Hieronym that lyued neerer to the time of S. Clement by twelue hundreth yeares then you shoulde know or here tell of his epistles and other writings better then you But Eusebius and Hieronym neuer hearde of such writinges as were neuer seen in the Church 13. or 14. hundreth yeares after Clemens his death Where shoulde you haue them then but of some counterfecting knawe that coulde not otherwise maintaine his heresie to be old but by falsyfying and counterfecting a newe that which neuer was in the olde writers heades But to shew that your shamelesse Clement daunceth bare and breechelesse with out all honesty I will yet pose you further and bidde you call your wittes together to aunswere me Whether had you rather graunt that so holy a Pope as Clemens was did erre or â—hat he was a false knaw that woulde father an error vppon so holy a mans name and credit your Syr Clemens decreeth that the fortyeth day must be obserued for the departed according to the olde forme because the people did so obserue the bewayling of Moses But if the scripture affirme that the people bewayled Moses but 30. dayes Deut. 34. Then is your Clement a falsyfier of Gods worde and his foolish decree builded vppon his false grounde How saye you now M. Allen is this Apostolike or apostotaticall is this plaine dealing or Popish counterfecting was Clemens in the Apostles age so ignorant of the scripture or was he an ignorant hypocrite that fayned this vnder the name of Clemens Trueth seaketh not to be mainteined which lyes fayth looketh not to be defended by falsehoode The Church of Christ craueth no counterfected authoritie to establish her doctrine Therefore it is neither trueth nor fayth nor the doctrine of the Church of Christ that you mainteine defend and establish by lying falsyfying and counterfecting but error infidelity and heresie he therefore that will forsake the certainetie of Gods worde to builde vpon the traditions of men for leuing the only pathe of trueth hath a iust rewarde to fall into the pitte of error 5 VVell I will close vp this parte of our talke for Tobies almes borde in the obittes of Christian men with S. Augustines graue iudgement who as he is plaine for the benefite of oblations in the memorialls of mens departures in all placies so here in a maner he ordereth the action thereof for abusies that might thereon arise in his epistle to Aurelius The offeringes sayth he obserued for the soules departed whereof there is no question but profet ariseth to them let them not be ouer sumptuous vpon the mindes of the deceased nor soulde away but geuen with out grudge or disdaine to such as be present and woulde be partaker thereof but if mony be offered it may be distributed out of hande to the poore and then shall not those dayes of their freindes memorialles be to their great griefe forsaken or destitute of companie And the ordre with honeste comelinesse shall be kept continually in the Church So S. Clement him selfe teacheth all them that be called to such dayes of prayers for the departed and to be partakers of those oblations or charitable relieues which were by some honest sober refreshing euen in the Church in those dayes obserued whether they be of the laity or of the priestes he geueth them this lesson Qui ad memorias eorum vocamini cum modestia cum dei timore comedite veluti valentes legatione fungi pro mortuis cum sitis presbyteri diaconi Christi sobrij esse debetis priuatim cum alijs vt possitis intemperantes coercere All you that are called to the funeralles of the departed refresh your selues in measure and feare of God that you may be worthy to be as it were in commission of intreatie for the deade and being priestes or deacons of Christ you are bounde to be sobre euen at home but abrode for others example and discipline 5 You had bene as good to haue left out the comparing of Augustines oblations with Tobies almes borde for that custome which most resembled your fantasie of Tobies almes borde Augustine condemneth where he alloweth oblations for them that sleepe to profit some what Sed quoniaÌ„ istae in caemiterijs ebrietates luxuriosa conuiuia non solùm honores martyrum in carnali imperita plebe credi solent sed etiam solatia mortuorum mihi videtur facilius illic dissuadeâ—i posse istam foeditatem ac turpitudinem si de scripturis prohibeatur oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium quas verè aliquid adiuuare credendum est super ipsas memorias non sunt sumptuosae c. But because this dronkennesses and riotous festes vsed in the Church yeardes of the carnall and vnskillfull people are wonte to be beleued not onely to be the honour of the martyrs but also the comforte of the deade my thinke it were more easy that this filthynesse and beastlynesse may be there diswaded if both it be forbidden out of the scriptures and that the oblations for the spirites of the deade which truely we must beleue doth helpe somewhat vpon the memories them selues be not sumptuous c. But if Augustine had knowen the horrible abuses which grew afterwarde by permission of these oblations he woulde as well haue prohibited them out of the scripture as that hethenish banquettinge in the Church yeardes in honor of the martyrs as for comforte of deade mens soules As for Clement that teacheth the preistes and deacones to be sober and moderate in eating where they were bidden to buriall feastes euen here also he sheweth him selfe in his owne colours As though in the dayes of Clemens when the Church was in great persecution they had nothing els to doe but to keepe sumptuous feastes at their burialls where at the priestes and deacons were in daunger of glouttony dronkennesse as they were in the Popish church when Popery was in the pride seldome temperate or sober and lest of all at burialls and monthes mindes c. That the benefite of prayer and almes appertaineth not to such as dye in mortall sinne though in the doubtefull case of mans beeing the Church vseth to praye for all departed in Christes fayth CAP. VII 1 THus farre we now are broght I trust with proofe and euidence enough with
true worship to banish together our fathers faith CAP. XII 1 IN this chapter where he vomiteth out nothing but rayling and lying he doth rather bewraye his owne infirmitie then touch the strength of our cause For being trobled with a sore laxe of the tongue which I take to be a like disease in the mouth that it is in the wombe he gusheth out nothing but bragging and faceing scolding and sclaundering tauntinge and trifling And therefore I will but breefely confute his vanity and turne him to his matches to contend in that kind of quarreling The chiefe argument he sayeth that the Church in times past and Augustine the Churches champion vsed against the Pelagians was to shewe that their heresie was contrary to the publicke prayers of the Church what shoulde I vse many wordes I appeale to the iudgement of all Papistes that haue not loste all vse of naturall reason and indifferent iudgement which either haue reade or will take paines to reade so many workes as Augustine did write against the Pelagians whether of an hundreth arguments that he vseth this insultation be not one of the feeblest which tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne concession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also And therefore when Augustine had to doe with the Donatistes that challenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other tryalles aside and prouoketh onely to the scriptures Therefore M. Allen if you wil teach your schollers to kepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to barke and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinckers curres but you must instructe them to open conningly out of the scriptures how our doctrine is cōtrary to the trueth and yours agreable to the same I do not blame you if you would faine haue that argument of the Church without tryall which is the Church to take place for it woulde ease you and your fellowes of much paine it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler all other bookes arguments and reasons might be layed a side and keepe silence The Church sayth it and we are the Church therefore it is true The scriptures them selues are altogether needelesse where this argument may stand for payment This is so plaine a proofe that the aduersaries shall not be able to saye baffe vnto it In deede they were but sory whelpes that could not say baffe to the bleating of such a calfe as you are which thinke that such a foolish cauill can carry credit with them that haue any cromme of brayne in their heads The Church prayeth so therefore it is true Nay Syr you pray and practise to controle the word of God therefore you are not the Church of god Proue that you doe not so or else prate as long as you wil. And thinke not to dorre vs with Cyprians name where as if you had his iudgement we might be bold to say as the same Augustine hath giuen vs example Nos nullam Cypriano facimus iniuriam cum eius quaslibet literas à canonica diuinarum scripturarum auctoritate distinguimus Neque enim sine causa tam salubri vigilantia canon Ecclesiasticus constitutus est ad quem certi Prophetarum Apostolorum libri pertinent quos omninò iudicare non audeamus secundum quos de caeteris literis vel fidelium vel infidelium liberè vindicemus Contra Cresconium Gram. lib. 2. cap. 31. We doe Cyprian none iniurie at all when we put difference betwene any of his writinges from the canonicall authoritie of the holy Scriptures For not without a cause with so holesome diligence is the ecclesiasticall canon appoynted vnto which certeyne bookes of the Prophets and Apostles doe perteyne which we dare not iudge at all according to which we may freely iudge of all other writings either of faithfull men or infidells And againe in the 32. chapter Ego huius epistolae auctoritate non teneor quia literas Cypriani non vt Canonicas habeo sed eas ex canonicis considero quod in eis diuinarum scripturarum auctoritati congruit cum laude eius accipio quod autem non congruit cum pace eius respuo I am not bound to the authoritie of this epistle because I count the letters of Cyprian not as canonicall scriptures but I consider them by the canonicall scriptures and what so euer I finde in them agreeable to the authoritie of holy Scriptures I take it with his prayse that which agreeeth not I reiect it with his leaue Iudge here gentle reader whether Augustine would or should with any indifferency bind either men to the absolute admitting of Cyprians authoritie wherwith he would not be holden him self and know Allen for a Iangler on Augustines wordes against the meaning of Augustine or any reasonable man. 2 I would learne by what Churches example they haue lefte out of their newe fangled phantasticall seruice the offering and praying for the departed One of them was so impudent to say in an open booke that the Lyturgies of the fathers made all against the Catholikes for the proofe of their false assertions VVherein sir I pray you tell me I woulde call you by your name if I knew who you were there you were ashamed of your owne name therefore ye shall lacke the glory of your assertion But who so euer you be I pray you what affinitie betwixt their office of celebration and yours doe you finde they offer the holy hoste they worship it they shewe it they pray vnto it which of all these doe you they blesse it with the signe of the holy crosse they practise the action vpon an altar how well follow you these they pray for the deade they make inuocation solemnely to sainctes they ioyne with all catholike Churches in the worlde where is your cause here amended or ours not plainely proued If their seruice like you so wel or at least better thē S. Gregories Masse you might with more honestie haue chosed for any one of them then haue forged a newe one of your owne which in deede is directly repugnant to all other rites in the Christian world VVhich you may well terme the seruice of contradiction and damnation as one that neither communicateth with the sainctes in heauen with the soules in purgatory nor with the faithfull a liue And being ashamed of the Latine Church you chalenge an other origine of faith out of the Easte parte as though your matter were well amended if you might shake of that faith and worship which our countrie in her conuersion first receiued and in which till this daye she hath happely lyued and make the heade of our holy tradition vncertaine by referring vs vnto an vnknowen origine 2 He would know by what churches example we haue