what meane you by them of whom where when vpon what grounds why a rambling logodiarrhe without wit or reason Edicta Principum Decreta Synodorum And iudicia pro tribunali are of large extent of different alotment For against God Equity Truth and Honesty what an idle discourse is it thus to shoote your bolts as boyes doe stones to make Duckes and Drakes vpon the surface of the water to glide smoothly for two or three grasings and then sinke to the bottome without any more adoe Adde quantity to iudgements Decrees Edicts wee shall know what you would say and so answere As for humane wisedome that helpe on our right hand haue you such cause to boast we haue no sense nor reason I thinke you doe not find vs such arrant fooles as vtterly destitute of humane indowments If you doe the better for you You may cary the cause against vs without more adoe Customes we haue many of the better sort not all your anticke fits and gesticulations You haue not all antiquity had you haue many they neuer saw Silly man know you not most customes doe and may vary keepe your owne if you please we are not so wedded to them nor to all ours but vpon reason we haue will and may change by better warrant then you can auoide As for multitude we dare drip Siders with you old and late but these are meere flashes of your Catholike vanity I haue said it often I repeate it in the close that you may remember it the better at least you shall find that is my selfe that will ioyne issue with you when you dare to maintaine the doctrine of the Church of England and oppose the doctrine of the Romish Church by all of these or any of these Antiquitie Custome Multitude humane wisedome Iudgements Decrees Edicts and Councels If I haue not for me in all or euery one as good and better share and interest for my confession theÌ„ you for yours I wil yeeld As for Miracles Visions and such hobgoblin-stuffe I am contented you appropriate to your owne So did the Gentiles brag of the like as Chrysostome obserueth Orat. 1. in Iudai santes pag. 34. Edit Hesheâ— So did the Donatists as S. Augustine reporteth de notis Ecclesiae ca. 19. Their miracles were then as yours now Figmenta mendacium hominum aut portenta fallacium spirituum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a prouerbiall speech in Athenaeus Fooles may be frighted with Hagges and Fairies men of vnderstanding know it is but knauery At Lauretto Sichem Annuntiada or wheresoeuer we haue the like puppet playes amongst our Catholike neighbours Cachinnantibus daemonijs at such iugling tricks for their aduantage And yet take me not so as if I cast off all miracles I admit I admire them that were true for a true end the ratificatiou of Truth vnto the soule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That such as would not yeeld vnto the word preached might yet be conuicted by that miraculous power saith Clemens in his Constituions This was that the world might beleeue but yet since and euer Chrysostome said true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One faith and beleefe is to be regulated not by miracles but by the Scripture which on good foundation we defend containes all that is Necessary for our saluation You haue done with your Reader and I with you till we meet againe at the next turne till then farewell A list of the seuerall errors imputed to the PROTESTANTS by this Gagger being so many Lyes I. THey maintaine in the first place that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood II. That in matters of Faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word III. That Apostolicall Traditions and ancient Customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs. IIII. That the Church can erre V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to be in a Tongue not vnderstood by all the Assistants VII That Saint Peter was not the first or chiefe among the Apostles and that none was greater or lesse among the twelue VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed IX That a Woman may bee supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine sinnes XII That we must not confesse our sinnes but onely to God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times XIIII That the Actions and Passions of the Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church XV. That no man can doe workes of Supererâ—gation XVI That by the fall of Adam we haue all lost our free-will and that it is not in our owne power either to choose good or eâ—ill XVII That it is impossible to keepe the Commandements of GOD though assisted with his Grace and the holy Ghost XVIII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation XIX That no good workes are meritorious XX. That Faith once had cannot be lost XXI That God by his will and ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall be damned and who saued XXII That euery man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that hee is of the 〈◊〉 her of the praedestinate XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell keeper XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. XXV That we may not pray vnto them XXVI That the Angels cannot helpe us XXVII That no Saint departed hath afterward appeared to any vpon Earth XXVIII That Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth XXIX That they pray not for vs. XXX That we may not pray to them XXXI That the bones or reliques of Saints are not to be kept no vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead XXXII That Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne Nature XXXIII That Children may bee saued by their Parents faith without Baptisme XXXIV That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholikes Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed XXXV That the bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ not his body XXXVI That wee ought to receiue vnder both kindes and that one alone sufficeth not XXXVII That sacramentall vnction is not to bee vsed to the Sicke XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy Orders XXXIX That Priests and other religious persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded on holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good XLI That Iesus Christ descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the Soules of
Traditions Act. 16. 4. this is one Act. 15. 29. To abstaine from bloud and strangled Exempt such dishes specified from such dressing haue with you to Masse to Mr. Mayes as I am inuited by Sir A. P◠peraduenture your selfe 2 Tim. 1. 13. We finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the forme of wholesome words in our Bibles And if this be Traditions vnwritten iudge you good Catholiques and set not so high a price vpon this arrant blunderer then whom a verier Goose neuer handled Goose-quill And so goe see if your leasure will serue Fathers that affirme somewhat not what they should The first you must see if you please is Irenaeus Lib. 3. cap. 4. for he will not trouble your seeing with Clemens Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Polycarpus Egesippus Iustinus Martyr all elder than Irenaeus and vaunted of by his good masters and no doubt as much to poynt as Irenaeus who yet is held to be resolute and irrefrageable in that place Propter quod oportet deuitare quidem illos quae autem sunt Ecclesiae cum summâ diligentia deligere apprehendere veritatis Traditionem For which cause wee must shun and eschew them but with all possible diligence make choyce of the things belonging to the Church and lay hold vpon the Tradition of truth Which Tradition is no other thing but the rule of our faith The holy Scripture nothing vnwritten vncertaine beside much lesse against Scripture This is somewhat in your opinion but that which is the thing intended indeede is this which followeth in Irenaeus Et si quibus de aliquâ modicâ quaestione disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum re liquidum est Thus hee questioneth I answere affirmatiuely yes No doubt we ought for resolution in poynts of doubtfull controuersie relye vpon that decision of the eldest Churches Doe we refuse this triall good Sir Gagger Where you will in what poynt you will I vndertake thus to iustifie the Church of England name you the Controuersie one or moe and maintaine the contrary if you can or dare The question is not with Irenaeus what must be Law but how the Law is to be expounded and interpreted Scripture the Law and Tradition the Interpretation that is the perpetuall praxis of the Church to expound the doubtfull texts of Scripture But Irenaeus proceedeth farther than so it will be said For What if the Apostles had left vs no writing at all Nonne oportet ordinem sequi Traditionis quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias Farther indeede but to no purpose this is vpon supposition If it had been so which is not so nor could be so Secondly it followeth not that because if God had not giuen Israei a Law it is probable hee would haue continued his former course with Abraham Isaac and the Patriarchs therefore when he had giuen them his Law they were still to looke for immediate or Angelicall Reuelations as before No more is it consequent to reason pietie or Irenaeus intent that albeit if no Scripture had beene written onely Tradition must haue beene followed therefore Scripture being written wee should as otherwise addresse our selues vnto Tradition But thirdly wee come home to poynt Shew vs any thing tendred by those Ecclesiae antiquissimae to be belieued and obserued and see if wee respect it not as well and as much as you Till you shew vs such Traditions leaue your prating idlely at randome touching worth and weight and vse and authoritie of Traditions Your Traditions tendred in these dayes are onely in name as Simon Magus was and Simon Peter the same no more of credite than hee of pietie both alike Origen is next to be seene in cap. 6. ad Roman Hee calleth Baptisme of Infants a Tradition and let it be so It is the vniuersall iudgement and most ancient practise of the Catholique Church deduced at least from Scripture if not proued in Scripture as the controuersor himselfe confesseth Be it a Tradition it is more for our aduantage than otherwise For we admit receiue defend and practise it which must needes giue the lye vnto your proposition That according to the Doctrine of the Protestants Apostolicall traditions ancient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige For the World knoweth your brazen face will blush to deny it wee receiue it practise it are obliged by it S. Damascen may stand by vnlesse you meane to make your friends with him a childe in yeares of yesterdayes birth in respect of those old Heroes of the Primitiue times Not that he saith any thing Lib. 4. cap. 17. more than an other or more effectuall and to purpose but because he is not of that desert or esteeme to be ranked with the Fathers of the Primitiue times being long post natus and a Partian many wayes for which cause I answere him not S. Chrysostome is peremptory and through for Traditions In 2. ad Thessal 2. vers 16. he saith Hence it is plaine and apparant that the Apostles deliuered not all in writing but very many things without booke Thus hee but to what end For no Protestant liuing in his right wits will deny this That the Apostles spake much more then is written And whatsoeuer they spake as Apostles in execution of their Ministery is of equall authority with that which they wrote For inke and paper conferre no authoritie or validity beyond the subiect and author of the writing Therefore the Tradition of the Apostles and of the Church is without all question of good credite and esteeme and so much wee professe Art 34. I graunt it hath displeased some which is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is Tradition which auoweth it seeke no further I see no reason why any should be so displeased therewith For if it be a Tradition of the Catholique Church and such Traditions onely hee meaneth Chrysostome saith there no more than hee may No more than Augustine and Tertullian haue said It is Tradition I goe no further No more will◠in any thing for my part I promise you that is controuerted betwixt you and vs at this day Make that appeare which you propose to haue been a Tradition of the Catholique Church and you and I shall soone agree shake hands and no more adoe Saint Basil you haue kept for the close it seemeth and for the vpshot of all and he indeed is in the place remembred very much for all Traditions vnwritten deriued to the Church from the Apostles I know some Protestants especially of preciser cut doe discredit the Author as a Counterfeit onely vpon Erasmus bare word who sauoured some discongruity which I could neuer finde of stile I am not of that or their minde Others being at a stand because of their owne priuate fancies oppose Saint Basil vnto Saint Basil For my part I beleeue
the Decisions and Edicts of Popes the inquisitors of Heresie and such like inhibitions to the contrary There are publique Resolutions held of all and priuate opinions maintained by some by men particular in their owne Conceits and Societies in a more generall agreement in things indifferent not de fide or if yet of a looser and lower tye and alloy As those are proposed resolued maintained tendred and commanded So the other are free and disputed and questioned not enioyned as de fide or Subscribed because Problematicall and no more If a man should collect the priuate opinions of priuate men which are differences in Schooles among Schollers nay of the Master of Controuersies or of sentences and impute them vnto the Church of Rome the Faith of Rome this Gagger if hee know what to doe and his gagle would refuse them disclaime them thinke themselues wronged proclaime themselues belied as Bellarmine doth often in the like case Ex aequo bono and more maiorum we may doe the like Yet see the honesty of this Imposter against vs in this his poore pamphlet He hath collected together out of C. W. B. and such companions and disposed as it hapned without order or method xlvii seuerall propositions All pretended errours of the Church of England because all contrary to expresse words of our owne Bibles and repugnant to Antiquity in the Writings of the Fathers so to fasten Noueltie and Heresie and Impietie vpon our Church Of these xlvii onely viii or ix are the Doctrines of our Church 6. 13. 15. 18. 30. 36. 42. 44. and yet not all these as they are by him abused embeasted confounded and circumscribed The rest are partly left at libertie by the Church not determined for doctrines either way Many imposed by him on the Church are directly disclaimed abandoned oppugned by the Church and the flat contrary to them commended and commanded And accordingly belieued practised and maintained against oppugners A maior part are the meere opinions priuate fancies peculiar propositions of priuate men many of them disclaimed by the very Authors some falsely imputed to their Authors some raked together out of the lay-stals of deepest Puritanisme as much opposing the Church of England as the Church of Rome So that whatsoeuer is in this Gagger is or childishly fancied or ridiculously mistaken or wilfully peruerted or slanderously imputed or maliciously proposed or ambiguously conceiued or not iustified any way as may euidently appeare in the particulars in my answere ensuing In which Whatsoeuer is to be owned by the Church as resolued and tendred and subscribed in the authorised Doctrine or Practise thereof is by mee iustified fully against him and shall be maintained against his betters as not contrary to Antiquitie in the Tradition of the Church much lesse vnto Scriptures in our owne Bibles What is inuolued by him malitiously to procure enuy to the side is explicated and asserted to the proper tenents and termes it is shewed how farre the Church of England resolueth where and what things are left free and vndetermined for men to hold with them or against them Priuate opinions are left vnto their Authors and Abettors olde enough and able enough to speake for themselues In a publique cause as is the Faith of Gods Church peculiar interests that I know haue no such share at least ouer-awing as to commaund vndertaking against opponents In answering of whom to come vnto my course obserued with him which I thought fit in conueniency to let the Reader vnderstand for my owne excuse and iustification I haue gone along with him cap apee and point per point first for his Scriptures both expresse and to be seene then for his Fathers that affirme the same that is nothing to purpose as little as his Scriptures did as I could finde them quoted or could guesse at them by imagining where they mought be probably spoken withall or where I could remember to haue some time left them For our Catholiques Romish secure no question of the goodnes of their cause or rather relying vpon the tractablenesse of their patient Proselytes so they can make a dumbe shew with scoring vp Fathers doe not much trouble themselues with caring where or what they say So this Gagger stood affected it is more than apparant For I was often left to goe blowe the seeke for his Fathers For poore man he tooke them vp as hee could finde them by tale without weight or triall Some few peraduenture in the country abroad but the maior part by farre out of C. W. B. What he is I cannot tell and as hee hath them truely or falsly quoted rightly registred or mistaken so in euery poynt are they in the Gagge vnlesse worse Such supine negligence secure discoursing childish disputing in such a Master in Israel Such infant-like performance in such a Goliah vpon whose head the Philistines haue set vp their rest I speake no more in effect than I haue heard of him since I vndertooke him who can beare Beside the scurrilous fellow according to his breeding and education it seemeth sure I am fitting enough his disposition commeth in with Coblers and Bakers and Tinkers and Tapsters and Hosts and Hostesses and bottles and bottle-ale Insulteth vpon poore Protestants Out of their wits sicke in their wits Prateth of Horses and Asses praying and such like stuffe out of his Coblersshop or Hostesses ale-bench no doubt And who is able to possesse his Soule or containe his pen in patience that hath to doe with such Impostors Mountebankes and Buffones such rake-shames and rakehels as these ramblers are I confesse that subiects of this nature should aboue all be moderately calmely and quietly handled but so if wee meete with moderate men with quiet men with temperate honest and discreet men with men not proiected prostituted and giuen ouer vnto lying calumniating traducing of all that concurre not with them as this companion and his comerades are who haue no intent to make vp any ruines or decayed places in the Church to heale the sores cure the wounds mollifie the swellings cleanse out the empostumations in the mysticall body of Christ that ayme not at peace nor would procure vnity nor any way indeauour that those who professe Gods holy name may agree in the truth of his holy word and liue in vnity and godly loue but make their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their whole indeauour their speciall study day and night by all kinde of iniquity to keepe a faction on foot and maintaine opposition euen where it needeth not Such are to be curryed in their kinde and to be rubbed as they deserue in no case to be smoothed or sleeked ouer lest they please themselues too well in their impiety It was euer held lawfull to call a spade a spade Saint Paul gaue not Elimas any gentle termes nor did Saint Peter speake butter and hony vnto Simon Magus Our Sauiour himselfe that man of meekenesse called Herod a Fox and Iudas a Deuil when they deserued it
wee must relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and her Pastors There be moe Pastors in the Church then the Pope though he be granted first he is not all There be moe Churches then his Church what hath Pope Vrban one man to doe with Pastors with the Church but that which wee know well enough by Pastors and Church in conclusion you meane the Pope I could interpret Saint Anselme well enough as that if a Controuersie were referred by the Church or an Heresie to be corrected in the Church which touched the case of the Catholicke Church it could not be put ouer more fitly to any one man by the Church representatiue in a Councel then vnto the Pope first Bishop of Christendome of greatest not absolute power amongst Bishops But I know your Saint Anselme well enough This was not his meaning he was partiall post natus not fit to speake in this cause nor amongst the Fathers A great Bishop I grant him He was Archbishop of Canterbury no great Doctor but respectiuely considering the barbarous times in which hee liued farre from being one of the ancient Fathers or their grand-child He liued in the dayes of King Henry the first and was a factionist for Pope Vrban his good Lord and Master So aske my fellow if I be a thiefe your bottle-ale Hostesse where you vse it seemeth to meete in Partridge alley with your gossips is well enough acquainted with these passages and can tell you as much as Saint Anselme could if an Heretick aske her who is Supreame ale-canner on Earth shee will answer no doubt why who but his holinesse In this case I beleeue them both alike as good reason for one as for other Sure yours are no better then those Corkes with which your Hostesse vseth to stop her bottles but agree as you can you and your Hostesse we proceede to the next Proposition III. That Apostolicall traditions and ancient customes of the holy Catholique Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs THis is also contrary to the expresse words of our owne Bibles How wherefore we shal see when we can In the interim thus wee draw on Traditions are of two Sorts in the writings of Antiquity as the word is ambiguous of two significations There are Traditions writteÌ„ improperly so called and there are Traditions vnwritten deliuered from hand to hand The name is sometime applyed to the one and sometime attributed to the other you meane not here Traditions written I know it no more doe we we agree to take it of vnwritten Traditions in opposition vnto Scripture as where Tertullian speaketh in his Book de coronâ militis thus Scripturam nullam invenies Traditio tibi praetenditur euictrix Scripture for this you can finde none the originall came from Tradition Traditions are considered Originally in their Authors Christ the Apostles the Church priuatemen which haue their authority more or lesse answerable to the worth of their Originals Againe they are considered materially in regard of what they treat of what they containe whereof they are of Orders Rights practices opinions in common vse and custome amongst men Traditions instituted by our Sauiour euen in points of beliefe Faith haue Diuine authority as his written word hath Traditions deriued from the Apostles haue equall authority with their Preachings and their writings I approue that processe of the Controuersor The authority of Gods Word is not because it is written but because it commeth from God Traditions of the Church haue such authority as the Church hath all binde and oblige as they were intended and as their extent is For they must be considered not onely from the Author but from the End Some were intended to be Permanent others onely to be transient for a Time onely or else for euer Some vniuersall some onely Partiall for the Catholique or else a priuate Church Such variety and difference is in Traditions which this Hudler confoundeth to deceiue his Nouice with indistinctions Now the question is not whether there be Traditions or haue beene heretofore we doe grant it in euery kinde that either there are or haue beene Traditions of Christ his Apostles the Church priuate men The question is not of what authority they are we grant their authority is from and as the Authors but the question is of their Credit and Extent First whether the pretended Traditions of Christ and his Apostles were indeed so ordained or deriued as they are pretended or rather counterseits and suppositions Proue them true vndoubted and we rise vp vnto them Secondly to what ends they were instituted whether to last and indure euer or for a time whether to supply the defects of Scripture not else sufficient for the end This we denye for it is our Position that the written Word of God without vnwritten Traditions is perfect and absolute and sufficient for the end whereto it was intended To make the man of God absolute in euery good worke Abuse not your selues nor your Proselites here slander not nor belye vs giue vs any Tradition of Christ or his Apostles giue vs good euidence for what you say goe proue it conuincingly to haue come from them by Scripture Fathers consent of Antiquity can you aske any more and we receiue it with both our armes as Gods holy Word and Institution Quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ab Apostolis praecepta benè traduntur quanquam scripta non reperiantur Though I finde it not vpon record in Scripture yet I receiue it as proceeding from the Apostles if the vniuersall Church imbrace it said Saint Augustine and I subscribe vnto it bring vs any such Tradition so accepted so receiued so commended and you shall see wee will reuerence it as much as you or more but if you giue me copper in stead of gold pardon me if I beleeue you not nor receiue it for pay Ecclesiasticall constitutions are moe more certaine of the same authority with the Churches written Lawes which binde generally if made for generall obligation or else particularly if they haue but locall and confined limitation omni modo bind they doe vnto obedience so long in such sort so farre forth as the authors did intend till the same authority disaâ—ow them which gaue vnto them being at the first In the 34. Article to this purpose wee reade of and concerning Ecclesiasticall Traditions It is not necessary that Traditions and ceremonies be in all places one or vtterly like for that at all times they haue beene diuers and may be changed according to diuersities of Countries times and mens manners So that nothing be ordained against Gods word Your Catholique cares be they round or long cannot be offended with this position I thinke Whosoeuer through his priuate iudgement willingly and purposely doth openly breake the Traditions and ceremonies of the Church which be not repugnant vnto the word of God and be ordained and approued by common authoritie ought to be rebuked openly that others may
feare to doe the like as hee that offendeth against the common order of the Church hurteth the authoritie of the magistrate and woundeth the consciences of the weake Loe Traditions not onely auowed but maintained the infringers censured So that but reade ouer your Position againe That Apostolicall traditions and auncient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs compare that with this decision and then giue your Catholike honesty the lye Euery particular or national Church hath authority to ordaine to change and abolish ceremonies or Rites of the Church ordained onely by mans authoritie so that all things be done vnto edification Nor is this against your Catholique Doctrine or practise and yet this is all that our Church deliuereth touching traditions in their publique authorised receiued constitutions Priuate opinions if there be any tye vs no more then they doe you Nay we deale more sincerely and positiuely than you doe distinguishing Traditions for plainenesse sake whereas your Fathers of Trent giue this onely in commaund That Traditions be receiued as the Scripture playing fast and loose in ambigiuous termes not differencing humane diuine Apostolicall Apotacticall Christian Paganish generall particular free of necessity temporary or permanent Traditions Can you or any Papist defend this The Popish Doctrine thus deliuered is not onely contrary to expresse words of your owne Bibles but to pietie and religion to sense and reason that any idle fantasticke foolish impious prophane humane inuention for your words runne generally and extend to all should be receiued as Holy Scripture but the protestant doctrine declared as before is not contrary to expresse words of our Bibles 2 Thessal 2. 15. Therefore Brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which yee haue receiued whether by word or by our Epistle Therefore c. Wee deny not obedience vnto this exhortation but indeauour to stand fast in the word of truth and hold fast all those Traditions which Saint Paul deliuered either by word or writing All Protestants giue due respect to such diuine authority Shew any that doth not and you say somewhat But good Sir Gagger Hee that refuseth those manifold botcheries and brokerages of your Romish Church and casteth them off as impious and ridiculous doth not streight transgresse this Apostolicall direction no more than he that reiecteth a counterfeit Passe made by some jarkman vnder an hedge for a Rogue doth resist lawfull authority Proue your Tradition such as you pretend then see what we will say vnto you 2 Thessal 3. 6. Now we command you brethren in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ that you withdraw you selues from euery brother that walketh disorderly and not after the Tradition he receiued of vs. Which we receiue and obey But Tradition may runne for Example here in effect not according to our example And so Saint Chrysostome vpon the place or it may be something extant also in writing or order prescribed them by the Apostle temporary and occasionall or of morall dispensation If you can name it wee will not refuse for our conclusion differerh not from yours Traditions are to be receiued and doe oblige vs but you must let vs know them and their credite first 1 Cor. 11. 2. I praise you brethren saith the Apostle that you remember mee in all things and keepe the Traditions as I haue deliuered them vnto you So hee would vs were hee now liuing so would hee not you that haue broken them for that which hee deliuered vnto them that hee receiued of the Lord 1 Cor. 11. 23. and that which hee receiued was touching the whole intire communion the Cups as well as the Bread you haue broken this Tradition through your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and presumptions But can you resolue mee what Tradition hee meaneth heere perhaps they were Temporall and not intended for vs. If such your owne rule is They oblige not It may be no vnwritten Traditions but the written word at least such things as be written now Howsoeuer the allegation is not to purpose for it doth not proue what the Protestants deny and that which it proueth they deny not That Traditions are to be kept 2 Timoth. 2. 2. Where there is no expresse mention of Traditions but onely of things receiued from Saint Paul by which Traditions peraduenture not written are meant and peraduenture things written who can tell whether these or those shew them and we refuse them not Iohn 20. 30. and 21 25. are both to one purpose Tradition is in neither text expressed nor to be collected from either for neither text is for Tradition both one other intimate no more but that all which Christ did or said is not recorded in the Gospels Doth any ideot belieue the contrary This fellow might begge vs if wee said or taught that Christ did nor said any thing but that is written Till then himselfe may be begged for a foole that would put vpon vs this vnhandsome beliefe All that Christ did or said is not written therefore any thing must be receiued that is pretended to be Tradition Apostolicall or Diuine 1 Cor. 11. 34. Paul saith The rest I will set in order when I come Therefore you may goe learne to bake a batch of Bread or goe drinke an health to the Vicar of St. Fooles with your Host of Holborne The inference is Saint Paul had not ordered all till hee came when hee came hee made good his promise and set all things in order at Corinth therefore any thing though neuer so absurd which Papists pretend as Tradition must be receiued as Gods word 1 Timoth. 6. 2. Saint Paul saith nothing of Tradition except these words will beare out Tradition These things teach and exhort which things are written not vnwritten For These things doe designe things there remembred Saint Iohn 2. Epist 12. saith He had many things to write vnto them which hee would not commit to paper but come himselfe and teach them by word of mouth which hee repeateth Ep. 3. vers 13. Therefore hee wrote not all things vnto them And who saith hee did therefore what our Gagger is a goose no other sequell and so hee must stand vntill hee shew that some of his Romish Traditions were part of that which Saint Iohn would not write vnto them but teach them by word of mouth Act. 16. 4. and 15. 28. Wee reade of no Traditions wee doe of Decrees ordayned in the Councell at Ierusalem but the mischiefe is they are written and yet so our Gagger and his Comerades keepe them not For tell mee did you neuer eate a Goose or her pudding Capon Hen or Chickens at your Bottle-Ale house in Partridge-Ally if not there nor otherwhere I haue nothing to say to you But if so I returne it to your teethe you belie vs in that which you doe your selues The Traditions Apostolicall and auncient customes of the holy Church oblige you not For among these Decrees or as you will
I confesse I haue dealt with this man as I would not haue dealt with euery one nor so as happely my person and calling would in some mens opinion require but sure as he and such as he deserue to be dealt withall For shall I suffer him to rayle vpon to blaspheme to calumniate to belye so impudently the Church of England as he doth beside his Tapster-like phrases of Ale and Hostesses and not make him heare of it on both his eares but guild him ouer with good language 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let himselfe or his companions or any Papist in the packe goe honestly sincerely soberly scholler-like to worke Let him set affection faction partiallity sinister ends apart Let him come home to the poynts controuerted without rowling rambling rauing ioyne issue instantly with the Question where it lyeth I am for him no man more ready more willing more submisse more desirous to goe calmely and sedate to worke for Gods glory the Churches tranquilitie the good and benefit of my selfe and others To learne to heare to be aduised to yeeld to euidence and conuicting proofe out of Scriptures out of Fathers the totall Tradition of the Church No otherwise willing to deale with moderate men then I haue and doe with that worthie Baronius in his kinde But for this man those that thinke otherwise must pardon me As a wise man is to be heard with attention so a foole must be answered according to his folly And so haue I answered this goodly Gagger Thus Curteous Reader hauing giuen thee an account of my comming vpon this employment and secondly of my carriage of it with the reason of my demeanure in it I come to the Gagger to cope with him leauing thee to the Protection of the Almighty Windsor December 28. Thine in Christs seruice RI MOVNTAGV THE PREFACE answering that of the Gagger's to his Catholike Reader IAm not nor would you haue me it seemeth by your inscription Sir Gagger much interessed in this your Preface For you will not I suppose admit meâ— for one of your Curteous Readers and I professe I am none of your Catholike Readers that is as you intend it according to the Romancutt Your inscription is onely to the Catholike Reader your addresse alone vnto the Cuâ—â—eous Reader And sure I am you neede both the one and other Catholike and Curteous or none at all to ouer-view your pure Naturalls Indeed because Catholike beleeuing any thing therefore so curteous admitting admiring any thing You are sure of a Curteous one without more adoe if he be a Catholike one that readeth it Such Readers you leade in a string by the nose you neede not pray them their patience spare that paines and engagement you are sure enough of so much patience as heart can wish though otherwise affected or but indifferent Readers would count it a pressure to peruse such idle treatises as you permit your selues leaue to send amongst them But Sir what incongruity is this which your Gagger-ship presenteth vs with at the first Gaping It was intended by you and accordingly fitted to choke vp the new Gospell and Gospellers for euer The very title doth challenge that opinion and threaten that performance and yet see your vnaduisednesse you would not haue it put into their mouths at all Catholikes alone are addressed and inuited to it that is Biddengape to begagged They onely are to reade it and to receiue aduice in what sort to vse it that is to serue themselues thereof with fruit and profit Whereas in all Eristicall discourses those ad oppositum are to be Readers if not onely yet principally as men to be conuerted or confounded of that which is written against them For my part I desire not nor would I willingly maske vnder a Catholike cloake at all yet as some Protestants sometime out of a desire to be Eye-witnesses of your Antique trickes there doe couertly repaire vnto your Masses so for once I care not if I take vpon me the stile of a Curteous and Catholike Reader to heare your aduice concerning those same points which are so very necessary for your Catholikes in perusing this treatise the better to serue themselues thereof with fruit and profit in all and in the seuerall points no doubt of great and much behoouefull obseruance The first point is an excuse of some negligence or at least ouersight in the very title of the Pamphlet For whereas the refutation of the errors of the Protestants so vaunted of was vndertaken to be out of expresse texts of their owne Bibles this indetermined generality may amuse and puzle the Reader who will be to seeke without all question out of which English Bible the alleaged passages are extracted Well thought vpon and to purpose Bonum factum had hee beene so punctuall and precise in his Texts of Fathers to bee seene for affirming God knoweth what oftentimes in none of which the editions are specified being many diuers and different In many of which no place designed or but at rouers and randon or els falsly and not to purpose Some aduice would haue beene thought vpon here Bibles are of more speciall care I grant Therefore as this was necessarily done so in discretion that should not haue beene left vndone And yet what such necesssity to tell the Reader out of which English Bible they were alleadged Great doubtlesse For Qui bené distinguit bene docet England hath brought forth within these few yeares past to the number of twenty seuerall Bibles I grant that perchance to the number of twenty and twenty thousand in many seuerall impressions and editions in folio in quarto in octauo as many hath Rome and Lions and Antwerpe and Paris and other places nay farre moe brought forth seuerall sorts of the vulgar Latine and sent them abroad into the world It was very vnaduisedly therefore done of Bellarmine Valentia Vasquez and the rest of our Controuersors not to giue vs a speciall direction vnto that precise Edition which they followed as you haue done for yours of 1615. in quarto by Robert Barker that we might addresse our selues in perusing Controuersies vnto the Edition by them followed the time place and quantity thereof Surely a materiall and most remarkeable aduice Catholikes could neuer haue perused this treatise with profit without this Oh but the Protestants sorts of Bibles are sarre different one from another Meane you in forme So are yours but then you enlarge beyond art and skill There are but fiue seuerall forms of Bibles at the most You mean in matter For the translations differing one from an other Then in plaine English you lye Name me ten of this twenty if you can Some different Translations there haue beene of late but authorized I know but two The Bishops as they call it and this last which hath perchance beene printed in seuerall formes twenty and twenty times but without diuersity in the Translation So that you might as well haue directed your
no such allegation nor will I oppose him vnto himselfe Thirdly some goe to it with downe-right reprehension that he gaue too much vnto Traditions and therein erred which censure and taxation is too surly I like not that the ancient Fathers should so be philipped off and sent away like schoole-boyes with snips that most learned religious and most iudicious Writer saith no more then is iustifiable touching Traditions For thus he The Doctrine of the Church is two wayes deliuered vnto vs First by writing then by Tradition from hand to hand both are of like value vnto piety And this is true if certainly both come from the same Author to the same intent and purpose for writing and speaking doe not vnder or ouer-value a thing In Edicts and Precepts and Proclamations from a Prince some haue his minde his words his hand-writing other his minde and words all his hand others his minde onely and no more being conceiued and penned by a Secretary of State according to directions yet are all the Acts of his Maiesty not of a Seruant or a Subiect To this Basil addeth which some mistake and therefore mislike 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. If wee venture or presume to taxe and reproue vnwritten Customes as not much to be respected wee may vnwittingly and vnwillingly preiudice and that in points of moment and consequence the very Gospell of Christ and bring Preaching to be but a bare name which censure I see no such cause to censure For Saint Basil saith not Take away Tradition and the Gospell is nothing as if the credit and weight and authority of the Gospell were meerely from Tradition but that the Gospell will receiue preiudice thereby Meaning that through Tradition that is the vniuersall consent of the Catholike Church wee are assured that the Gospels of Saint Marke and Saint Luke are diuine and true and that the Gospels of Saint Thomas Saint Bartholmew and others are forged though these were Apostles those but Disciples But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to what purpose is this for Popish Traditions Is there any of them so commended vnto vs as the Gospell of Saint Luke or Saint Marke is by Tradition Saint Basil saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. that is not some things as you perfidiously relate it but of the Doctrine and Discipline heretofore and yet obserued in the Church part we haue from written instruction and part from the Tradition of the Apostles we haue receiued which hath beene transmitted vnto vs couertly Both which haue the same force vnto piety We admit this saying and professe as much let it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a perpetuall practice of the Catholique Church of Christ and see what wee will say vnto it Saint Basils first instance in the point is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signe vs with the signe of the Crosse you know wee commend it we practice it we command it we propugne it Euery Baker could haue told you so much that euer had Childe Christened in our Church Aske your acquaintance I make no doubt but you are interessed in some Bakers basket for a toste or a new loafe Bakers and Bottle-ale are so much in your mouth But leaue we you to your Bottle-ale and Baker great Saint Basil that patronizeth you suppose so much your Traditions in his Morals Reg. 12. cap. 2. giueth you this Item remember it well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Wee ought not to follow the Procepts of men so farre as to set by the Commandement of God Hold you here and haue along with you in your Traditions as you will faile here Basil and we leaue to gang alone IIII. That the Church can erre FAst and loose Sir Iugler For why expresse you not plainly what Church you meane when you say that the Church cannot erre or in what things and how far the Church cannot erre Particular and Topicall Churches haue erred such may then and can euen in Fundamentals and so ceased to be any more Churches as those of Galathia Ephesus Philippi Colossae Thessalonica Those vnto whom Saint Iohn sent his Reuelation glorious and goodly in their time but now Cages for vncleane Birds But as touching the Catholique Church take it thus from me The Catholique title includeth two things vniuersality of Time and Place both or vniuersality of Place onely In the former acception take the Church and that Caetus euocatus which hath beene heretofore and which is now make it vp The Apostles their Disciples all their Successors are included And so the Catholique Church hath not did not cannot erre either in Factor Faith Fundamentall or lesse Fundamentall In the second acception according vnto vniuersality of Place The Catholike Church of Christ is twofold Diffusiue or Representatiue in euery part and member in euery place In some speciall parts in one place a generall Councell for the whole or all particulars that make vp the whole The Catholique Church at this day cannot erre in all her parts nor in faciendis matter of fact nor credendis points of beliefe dangerously The Church Representatiue true and lawfull neuer yet erred in Fundamentals and therefore I see no cause but to vouch shee cannot erre in Fundamentals Firmitas enim Fundamenti cui totius Ecclesiae superstruitur altitudo nullâ incumbentis sibi templi mole lassessit Soliditas enim illius fidei quae in Principe Apostolorum est laudata perpetua est Et sicut permanet quod in Christo Petrus credidit ita permanet quod in Petro Christus instituit as well saith Leo Ser. 2. de Assump sua If this be your opinion looke you Let vs see if our Bibles be expresse against this Esay 40. 21. My spirit that is vpon thee and my words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seede saith the Lord from henceforth and for euer In which words if we did defend the Thesis as it is proposed that the Church could erre we might answer this Text doth not perplex vs. For where doe we finde Church or not erre in the Prophet it is but by illation at the most The man bragged of expresse words and can performe no more but consequence And that not necessary For may not it be said This is but a Precept not a Promise as where it was said vnto Iosua and in him vnto the Princes and Rulers of the People The volume of the Law shall not depart from them they shall meditate therein day and night This was an iniunction what they ought to doe not a promise what they should performe or at least but Temporary and Conditionall for they departed from the Law and the Law from them I◠so what assurance of not erring Thirdly Gods promises haue a Condition annexed or implyed euer to be performed by man which if he performe God is bound if hee breake God is free My words
vpon the name of the Lord that is he that calleth vpon the Lord shall besaued but we grant the name of Iesus to bee Iesus named and when wee heare that sweet name of our Sauiour named accordingly do and are inioyned by Canon to do reuerence with our bodie Heere it doth not insue wee may worship Images there is text for the one none for the other Shewe it that vnto the Image os Iesus euery knee should bowe Difference in the one from the other Images are resemblances which in vse and application may in naturall proportion haue such a relation vnto the Prototype that they supply the roome thereof insinuating the forme and fashion thereof which the name thereof cannot doe insinuating onely that being thereof So there is reason for the one none for the other lesse reason of alleadging this text of Saint Paul for ratification of Image-worship In the Brazen Serpent there is more resemblance It may be a warrant for making an Image no warrant for worshipping an Image made nor for making ordinarily because that was made by speciall direction to a speciall end against a generall practice vpon precept Thou shalt not make any grauen Image God may so dispense with his own Law where when in what sort and to whom hee will but not wee The first obseruation then out of this Text against the Protestant that God commanded the making of this Image is idle neuer Protestant made question of it nor of the second that it was set vp for a signe nor the third that the lookers vpon it should receiue health nor the fourth of exempting the practice commanded from the breach of the first Commandement These they confesse they plead and bid you shew the like for your Images for making erecting beholding reuerencing any Image of God or Saints in this sort and they yeeld This Serpent was beheld not adored by those that looked on it though it had a reference vnto a great mystery and was a Rememoratiue of saluation extended by the Sonne of God Vnlesse it were adored it is to no purpose alleaged For making is one thing this may be done Adoring another thing that is vnlawfull Therefore Saunders and Catharine and Saunders and Bellarmine doe maintaine adoration was giuen vnto it Vasques denieth it and that iustly for when they began to adore it the good Ezechiah brake it in pieces But yet Vasques must yeeld it was adored or else that it is alleaged to no purpose to prooue Adoration To conclude no Text of Scripture doth expresly say nor by consequence inferre that euer Images were worshipped with countenance or commendation of God or any holy man in Scripture Saint Ambrose saith no such thing as is pretended that Images lawfully may be worshipped Hee saith Whosoeuer crowneth the Emperours Statue crowneth the Emperor that is honoreth him and whosoeuer dishonoreth the Emperours Statue dishonoreth him What then Whosoeuer dishonoreth Gods Image dishonoreth him I grant And what of that Therefore honour is to bee giuen some Images No man denieth it Therefore all Images are to be worshipped Away with that no such consequence Honor is one thing Dulia if you will Latria is another worship I am sure First What is Gods Image Then How farre Gods Image Then What honour is due vnto Gods Image And lastly Whether the honor giuen be not more or other honour then is due vnto an Image Saint Augustine in his third booke de Trinit You might haue added cap. 10. as well as the book out of Bellarmines nameth the brazen Serpent expresly in the ranke of such things as tanquam religiosa honorem haberepossunt And so doe wee and many things of that nature as the Sacraments of the Church of the which very things hee speaketh and it had beene better he had sayd nothing of them For hee demolisheth that Idol of Transubstantiation in adding Stuporem tanquam mira habere non possunt Which could not haue passed from his pen had he beleeued Transubstantiation This place of Saint Augustine is to no purpose for there is not a word of Images there Saint Gregory is of later date then Saint Augustine and of lesse credit by much in controuerted questions Images in his time were much improoued and yet not vnto Adoration Honour Reuerence and respect was giuen then to bee bookes for the simple and ignorant people to bee remembrances of things by representation Hold you heere and wee blame you not As for Damascene he was a childe in respect of those Heroes of the Church Postnatus and a party in that Image quarrell in the Easterne Church exception against him may lie as partiall interessed and yet hee saith no more though what hee saith cannot bee prooued then that the honoring of Images was a Tradition Apostolical You or Damascene proue this and I yeeld I maruaile none euer said so before Damascene who yet had good occasion to auow it if it had beene so They had you say and did auow it for Saint Basil against Iulian hath the same that it was deliuered from the Apostles Some body told Pope Adrian so and hee beleeued them for facile credimus quae fieri volumus Adrian related it in the second Synod of Nice and you take it for Gospell It Saint Basil said it I le subscribe it shew it in Saint Basil and no more adoe I maruaile Saint Basil should euery where forget this Tradition remembring so many as he doth especially in his booke de spiritu sancto Basil is not the onely man belyed in that ridiculous Synod nor the onely man forged in that Epistle of Pope Adrian whence the Rhemists and Harding and Bellarmine had it from whom you took whatsoeuer you haue impudent Plagiary as you are Saint Chrysostom's Masse is not intirely his many things haue beene added in tract of time no man will deny it that knoweth any thing this bowing to the Image is one of those additions and yet in some editions there is no mention of any Image if there bee it doth not come home to iustifie that in the Church of Rome whereby worship is giuen to stocks and stones and such worship as indeed is Gods peculiar Images and Idols may be two things these prophane and impious neuer tolerable those not vnlawfull and sometime profitable especially resemblances of Stories Images were vnlawfull vnto the Iewes at all the very ordinary and ciuill vse and making of them except by speciall warrant in some place as in the Temple vpon the Ark which though perhaps not obserued yet is true and apparant to any man that aduisedly shall read Philo and Iosephus Vnto Christians they are not vnlawful for ciuil vses nor vtterly in all manner of religious imployment The pictures of Christ the blessed Virgin and Saints may be made had in houses set vp in Churches the Protestants vse them they despight them not Respect and honour may be giuen vnto them the Protestants doe it and vse them for helps
riddles Saint Hier in praefat commen in Eph. Saint Aug. Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith The things c. Saint Gregorie hom 6. in Ezech and many others confesse the same Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Math. 23. 2. 2. 3. * Note here that he doth not say whosoeuer but whatsoeuer giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that not onely the bonds of sinne but as well all other knots and difficulties in matters of saith and manners are to be loosed by Saint Peter and by the Pastors that succeed him in the Church See more to this effect Deut. 17. 8. See Aggee the 2. and 11. 2 Chron. 19. 8. See Fathers which affirme the same S. Gregor Nazian in Oratione excusat Tertul. lib. de praescrip Haeret S. Cyprian Lib. 1. Epi. 3. S. Aug. lib. 1. cont Cres cap. 33. lib. cont epist Fund ca. 5. Whether now wilt thou beleeue so great a Bishop as S. Anselme or some other Host or Hostesse that sell bottle-ale Contrary to express words of their owne Bible 1. 2. 3. Thas Traditions are to be receiued see more Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer beare great Saint Basil See Fathers that affirme the same S. Basil lib. de spirit Sanct. ca. 27. saith that some things we haue from Tradition of the Apostles both which haue force alike vnto godlinesse Some things wee haue from Scripture other things from the Apostles Traditions both which haue like force vnto godlinesse Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer-beare great Saint Basil And consequently cannot erre See more Iohn 16. 13. Therefore it is not forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to bee in a tongue not vnderstood by the Assistants Now the names of the twelue Apostles are these the first Simon which is called Peter Therefore c. And what other thing is it for Peter to confirme and strengthen his brethren than to practice and exercise his greatnesse ouer them For he that doth strengthen and confirme is greater and they who are strengthened c. are made thereby inferiors to him who doth strengthen and confirme them See more for proofe hereof c. See Fathers that affirme the same Theoph. in 22. Luk calleth Peter Prince of the Disciples Eusebius in Chron First Bishop of Christians S. Cyril of Hier. Cat. 2. Prince and most excellent of all the Apostles S. Chrys hom 55. in Mat. Pastor and Head of the Church Cont. Crescon 3. 15. Contrary to their own Bible 2 Thes 2. 3. For so Saint Peter should then be Antichrist for he was Pope and the very first of Popes Therefore the great Antichrist shall be a particular man Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible See more Mat. 16. 19. See Fathers that affirme the same Contrary to the expresse words of your owne Bible Therefore sinnes may be confessed vnto man See the Fathers who affirme the same Tertul. lib. ad Mart. ca. 1. Pope Vrban the second graunted a plenary Indulgence to such as would goe to the Holy-Wars An. Christi 160. Hence hath the ground of Indulgences beene alwayes taken but more principally from the super abundant merit of Iesus Christ Whence it appeareth that man by assistance of Gods grace may doe some things counselled And these we call workes of supererogation See one Father for the same in stead of many I could produce See more Eccles 15. 14. Is it not then plaine wilfulnesse to denye Freewill See Fathers that affirme the same S. Iren. Lib. 4. cap. 7. Contrary to express words of their owne Bible Briefly if the Commandements were impossible they could binde no man For it is not to bee conceiued how one should sinne in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid It is not to be conceiued how one should sin in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid Lastly Saint Basill who saith it is an impious thing to say that the commandements of God are impossible See more 1 Cor. 9. c. See Fathers that affirme the same S. Ambrose de Apolog. Dauid ca. 6. S. Hier. lib. 3. cont Pelag. S. Aug. de spirit lit cap. vlt. 1. 2. 3. Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible See more Ose 13. 9 c. See Fathers that affirm the same S. Aug. lib. 1. ciuit Tert. de Orat cap. 8. S. Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist 2. S. Ambrose Lib. 2. de Cain et Abel will nâ—t that we refer vnto God the preuarication of Adam or treason of Iudas though hee knew the sin before it was committed Contrary to their owne Bible Therefore S. Paul himself was not assured infallibly A point of doctrine so improbable that we will not labour to ouerthrowe it by any further proof of Fathers Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible Mat. 18. 10 Therefore they had their Angell-keeper This very passage Saint Cyril of Alexandria Lib. 4. con Iulian. applieth to our Angel-keeper See more Acts 12. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 10. Contrary to expresse words in your owne Bibles Zach. 1. 9 10 11. Now what I pray you is a praier if this be not Contrary to their owne Bible That this was spoken to a true Angell and not to Christ Basil l. 3. c. Eunomium S. Chrys ho. 7. in laud. S. Pauli and vpon 1. of Col. and S. Hier. vpon 66 of Esay Which beeing so who for shame can say He prayed not vnto him See Fathers that affirme what hath beene said touching Angels For some such my self haue met with Therefore Saints deceased haue appearea to some on earth At Saint August witnesseth Lib. de cura mortis cap. 14. Nor can any be so senslesse as to say they pray for them selues Contrary to their owne Bible If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. Where note that Theodoret paraphrasing vpon Baruch interpreteth this very place as Catholiques doo Now is the Sunne more cleare than that Saints pray for vs Iob 1. 5. 〈◊〉 S. August himself expounds this very place as Catholiques doo in his Annot. vpon Iob. If it had not been the common custome in the time of Iob to inuocate the Saints deceased it had bin friuâ—lous for Eliphas to haue asked Iob to which of the Saints he wou'd t 〈…〉 See more Contrarie to expresse words of their owne Bibles In second of Kings but is the 4 by the account of Catholiques 13. 21. S. Chrysost To. 5. cont Gentil quòd Christus sit Deus in an whole Booke proues heerby and by the like vertue of other Saints that Christ their Lord and Master is God whose seruants napkins and shadows could do such wonders Are they not therefore fooles and blind that keepe such a â—ooting at Holy-bread Hooker Poor Protestant whither now is thy figure fled See Fathers that affirm the same S. Ignat. in his Epist ad Smyr Iustin Mar. Apol. 2. ad Antoninum Now say the truth and shame the Diuell are not they sick in their wits which will oppose such plaine Scriptures Deuter. 23. 22. Psal 66. 13. Psal 19. 11. 1. Tim. Math. 5. 12. Ier. 35. 5. Therefore it is grounded c. Contrary to their owne Bibles These freed Captiues cannot bee the soules of the Saued which no man in his right wits can call Captiues nor of the damned for so the diuels should be brought again into heauen Therefore they were the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Acts 2. 27. Which very words Saint August applieth to the paint of Purgatory and addeth Who but an Infidel will deny Christ to haue descended into hell Ep. 99. ad Euodium Saint Ambrose Ser. 20 in Psal 118. Saint Hierome vpon 4 of Amos Saint August vpon the 37 Psal Saint Gregory lib. 4. Dial. explicate this very place of Purgatory Heb. 9. 1. 5. Lo Saint Paul calleth the pictures of the Cherubins which Salomon made an Ordinance of diuine Seruice which Protestants call the making of Idols who now shall we beleeue whether S. Paul or a Protestant When painting and grauing of 〈◊〉 tures is so farre from beeing Idolatry that it is prooued to be a Science diuinely infused by God himself Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible and he said Draw not nigh hither c. Lo how cleer a place is produced heer against Protestants where an insensible â—reature without reason was commanded by God himselfe to be honored Now the principal reason why the Arke was worshipped was in regard of the Images that were vpon it which as S. Ierom saith the lewes did worship in his Ep. ad Marcellan Num. 21. 8. Hence are euidently prooued diuers things against Protestants c. See Fathers that affirme the same Saint Ambrose Ser. 1. in Psal 118. Where first our Lord hauing taught his owne Disciples that excellent Prayer of all praiers which hee would haue them to offer to him the Pater noster or our Lords Praier hee afterwards in many other places willeth them to pray alwaies as Luke 18. 1. The Angels in the Prophet Esay Esay 6. and the beasts in the Apoc. Apo. 4. which rest neither dâ—y nor night do thrice repeat c.