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tradition_n church_n good_a scripture_n 2,095 5 5.9073 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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infirmity_n be_v the_o same_o strong_a handsome_a healthy_a man_n that_o he_o be_v when_o at_o twenty_o five_o or_o thirty_o year_n old_a dub._n tho'_o i_o have_v sometime_o much_o reverence_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n for_o her_o antiquity_n yet_o now_o i_o begin_v to_o doubt_v that_o there_o be_v many_o disease_n in_o the_o body_n of_o that_o church_n many_o wrinkle_n in_o her_o face_n which_o be_v not_o from_o the_o begin_n but_o not_o withstand_v those_o infirmity_n it_o be_v the_o same_o true_a church_n as_o it_o be_v at_o the_o first_o plantation_n as_o the_o old_a decrepit_a man_n be_v the_o same_o man_n that_o ever_o he_o be_v for_o substance_n firm._n i_o deny_v not_o but_o that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v in_o some_o sense_n the_o same_o it_o first_o be_v in_o respect_n of_o divers_a article_n it_o hold_v but_o in_o respect_n of_o those_o gross_a error_n it_o now_o maintain_v it_o be_v no_o more_o like_o what_o it_o be_v than_o the_o old_a decrepit_a disease_a man_n be_v like_o what_o he_o be_v in_o his_o young_a day_n dub._n your_o comparison_n be_v very_o good_a and_o apposite_a to_o the_o present_a church_n of_o rome_n which_o past_a dispute_n be_v full_a of_o dangerous_a and_o desperate_a disease_n as_o i_o in_o part_n do_v apprehend_v i_o pray_v you_o proceed_v to_o my_o other_o motive_n firm._n the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v not_o so_o universal_a as_o her_o disciple_n boast_v of_o neither_o in_o respect_n of_o place_n or_o time_n 1._o it_o be_v the_o observation_n of_o a_o learned_a man_n that_o if_o the_o world_n be_v divide_v into_o 30_o part_n 19_o of_o they_o be_v heathen_n 6_o mahometan_n and_o 5_o christian_n of_o which_o the_o papist_n be_v not_o the_o one_o half_a as_o mr._n breirwood_n in_o he_o inquire_v do_v demonstrate_v 2._o as_o to_o the_o universality_n of_o time_n the_o church_n of_o rome_n can_v deduce_v her_o present_a tenant_n from_o the_o begin_n of_o christianity_n through_o the_o several_a age_n or_o centurye_n that_o it_o have_v continue_v a_o church_n from_o the_o first_o preach_v of_o the_o gospel_n i_o deny_v not_o but_o that_o it_o be_v the_o same_o for_o purity_n of_o doctrine_n as_o once_o it_o be_v be_v most_o false_a for_o the_o ancient_a church_n of_o rome_n never_o teach_v worship_v of_o image_n pray_v to_o saint_n that_o monstrous_a transubstantiation_n half_a communion_n prayer_n in_o a_o unknown_a tongue_n and_o many_o more_o groundless_a foppery_n against_o scripture_n the_o general_a consent_n of_o father_n common_a sense_n and_o reason_n dub._n all_o this_o i_o be_o incline_v to_o believe_v but_o how_o can_v these_o error_n creep_v into_o a_o church_n which_o do_v so_o punctual_o observe_v the_o tradition_n of_o their_o forefather_n what_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n now_o believe_v and_o teach_v it_o receive_v from_o the_o church_n that_o be_v in_o the_o next_o age_n before_o it_o that_o from_o the_o church_n next_o before_o it_o and_o so_o quite_o down_o to_o the_o apostle_n time_n as_o the_o author_n of_o the_o dialogue_n betwixt_o the_o uncle_n and_o the_o nephew_n have_v most_o learned_o demonstrate_v firm._n true_o very_o learned_o even_o as_o zeno_n prove_v there_o be_v no_o local_a motion_n you_o have_v hear_v how_o diogenes_n confute_v he_o by_o a_o ocular_a demonstration_n be_v not_o the_o scribe_n and_o pharisee_n great_a pretender_n to_o a_o strict_a observation_n of_o the_o tradition_n of_o their_o father_n and_o yet_o we_o know_v how_o gross_o they_o have_v corrupt_v the_o law_n of_o moses_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o our_o saviour_n confutation_n of_o they_o mat._n 5._o and_o in_o several_a other_o place_n dr._n crakan●thorp_n and_o other_o learned_a protestant_n do_v evident_o show_v the_o beginning_n the_o progress_n of_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n the_o manner_n of_o their_o spring_n and_o growth_n but_o suppose_v we_o can_v punctual_o t●ll_v the_o beginning_n and_o progress_n of_o such_o and_o such_o a_o error_n shall_v we_o therefore_o believe_v it_o to_o be_v no_o error_n you_o walk_v sometime_o in_o the_o field_n vides_fw-la it_o be_v evident_a to_o your_o eye_n that_o the_o grass_n a●d_v grain_n do_v grow_v though_o you_o do_v not_o see_v they_o move_v at_o all_o sometime_o you_o visit_v a_o friend_n that_o be_v sick_a of_o a_o languish_a consumption_n you_o see_v by_o infallible_a symptom_n that_o your_o friend_n be_v in_o a_o desperate_a condition_n will_v you_o not_o believe_v he_o to_o be_v so_o because_o you_o can_v tell_v the_o time_n when_o or_o the_o manner_n how_o his_o disease_n come_v upon_o he_o dub_v i_o can_v be_v so_o unreasonable_a and_o by_o what_o you_o have_v say_v my_o three_o reason_n fall_v to_o the_o ground_n for_o the_o present_a church_n of_o rome_n have_v no_o agreement_n with_o the_o primitive_a but_o be_v extreme_o opposite_a to_o it_o in_o the_o point_v before_o name_v beside_o many_o other_o i_o pray_v let_v i_o hear_v what_o you_o can_v say_v against_o their_o unity_n for_o they_o seem_v to_o be_v firm_o unite_v under_o one_o infallible_a head_n the_o pope_n firm._n true_o sir_n they_o do_v but_o seem_v so_o for_o they_o be_v miserable_o divide_v in_o the_o great_a fundamental_a of_o their_o faith_n faith_n their_o infallibility_n and_o be_v not_o they_o very_o unjust_a to_o we_o to_o exact_v our_o belief_n of_o that_o which_o they_o themselves_o know_v not_o where_o to_o find_v for_o some_o of_o they_o tell_v we_o it_o be_v fix_v to_o the_o pope_n chair_n some_o say_v it_o be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o a_o general_n council_n ot●●rs_n believe_v it_o to_o be_v in_o neither_o but_o in_o both_o unite_a together_o other_o will_v persuade_v we_o that_o it_o be_v in_o the_o whole_a body_n of_o the_o church_n so_o that_o if_o you_o seek_v after_o this_o pretty_a knack_n of_o infallibillity_n you_o will_v be_v abuse_v as_o young_a apprentice_n be_v use_v to_o be_v in_o great_a cittys_n and_o corporation_n who_o in_o waggery_n be_v send_v from_o shop_n to_o shop_n for_o a_o pennyworth_n of_o ell-broad_a packthread_n or_o a_o pound_n of_o stockfish_n tallow_n or_o a_o lefthanded_a shuttle_n after_o these_o poor_a novice_n have_v be_v send_v from_o one_o end_n of_o the_o city_n to_o the_o other_o they_o return_v home_o without_o such_o ridiculous_a commodity_n and_o be_v sufficient_o expose_v to_o laughter_n and_o derision_n there_o be_v scarce_o a_o controversy_n in_o all_o bellarmin_n voluminous_a work_n wherein_o he_o recite_v not_o the_o different_a opinion_n of_o the_o roman_a catholic_n among_o themselves_o insomuch_o that_o this_o great_a cardinal_n work_n be_v not_o to_o be_v buy_v in_o rome_n as_o sir_n edw_n sandye_n report_n in_o his_o europa_n speculum_fw-la because_o he_o have_v so_o imprudent_o discover_v the_o nakedness_n of_o his_o mother_n in_o point_n of_o unity_n to_o say_v nothing_o of_o the_o contention_n betwixt_o the_o thomist_n and_o scotist_n ochamist_n &c_n &c_n it_o be_v pleasant_a to_o see_v how_o sweet_o the_o dominican_n franciscan_n jesuit_n molinists_n jansenist_n regulars_n and_o secular_o agree_v together_o though_o a_o laté_fw-fr pope_n dare_v be_v so_o bold_a as_o to_o decide_v a_o controversy_n for_o the_o molimist_n against_o the_o jansenians_n and_o so_o that_o which_o be_v none_o before_o very_o lucky_o become_v a_o article_n of_o faith_n such_o be_v the_o pope_n omnipotent_a power_n that_o he_o can_v create_v article_n of_o faith_n out_o of_o that_o which_o be_v a_o pure_a nonentity_n a_o very_a nothing_o in_o the_o primitive_a time_n yet_o i_o hear_v that_o the_o jansenist_n be_v so_o saucy_a as_o to_o continue_v very_a jansenist_n still_o notwithstanding_o his_o holiness_n infallible_a determination_n dub._n i_o see_v there_o be_v no_o such_o unity_n in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n as_o they_o brag_v of_o i_o desire_v to_o hear_v what_o you_o can_v say_v against_o the_o sanctity_n of_o their_o doctrine_n firm_a the_o sanctity_n of_o their_o doctrine_n refer_v to_o that_o of_o faith_n and_o manner_n for_o that_o of_o faith_n which_o be_v brief_o comprehend_v in_o the_o apostle_n creed_n or_o any_o other_o doctrinal_a point_n contain_v in_o holy_a scripture_n express_o or_o by_o good_a consequence_n deduce_v from_o thence_o by_o the_o general_a consent_n of_o father_n we_o allow_v of_o but_o as_o for_o popish_a addition_n of_o new_a atticle_n by_o pope_n pius_n the_o 4._o and_o the_o council_n of_o tr●nt_n that_o be_v against_o scripture_n and_o can_v never_o be_v justify_v by_o the_o general_a consent_n of_o the_o ancient_a doctor_n of_o the_o church_n we_o reject_v as_o false_a and_o consequent_o not_o holy_a this_o i_o suppose_v you_o will_v demonstrate_v when_o you_o please_v to_o give_v i_o the_o reason_n which_o make_v you_o forsake_v the_o present_a church_n of_o rome_n as_o to_o their_o sanctity_n of_o manner_n their_o
to_o the_o sight_n the_o smell_n the_o taste_n shall_v we_o think_v that_o the_o god_n of_o truth_n give_v to_o m●n_z five_z scence_z to_o deceive_v 4_o of_o they_o by_o one_o pretend_a miracle_n or_o that_o it_o be_v his_o method_n to_o inform_v the_o mind_n by_o imposture_n if_o one_o or_o two_o or_o three_o sense_n may_v be_v deceive_v why_o not_o all_o then_o what_o will_v become_v of_o rome_n oral_a tradition_n for_o may_v not_o the_o ear_n be_v deceive_v as_o well_o as_o the_o eye_n the_o nose_n the_o taste_n the_o touch_n here_o be_v 4_o sense_n to_o one_o against_o that_o tradition_n and_o then_o how_o be_v the_o papi_v certain_a of_o what_o they_o have_v receive_v from_o the_o present_a church_n or_o how_o be_v she_o certain_a of_o what_o she_o receive_v from_o the_o church_n immediate_o before_o she_o be_v not_o the_o doctrine_n of_o transubstantiation_n which_o teach_v man_n not_o to_o believe_v their_o eye_n and_o other_o of_o their_o sense_n a_o ready_a way_n to_o atheism_n and_o infidelity_n for_o if_o four_o of_o the_o five_o sense_n may_v be_v deceive_v then_o farewell_o all_o tradition_n and_o if_o these_o inferior_a faculty_n may_v be_v thus_o baffle_v what_o satisfaction_n can_v it_o have_v be_v to_o st._n thomas_n that_o christ_n be_v true_o rise_v from_o the_o dead_a by_o put_v his_o finger_n into_o the_o print_n of_o the_o nail_n or_o his_o hand_n into_o his_o side_n but_o beside_o what_o sense_n and_o reason_n witness_v against_o this_o monstrous_a opinion_n the_o scripture_n be_v clear_o opposite_a unto_o it_o for_o christ_n at_o the_o institution_n of_o this_o sacrament_n do_v not_o take_v his_o own_o body_n into_o his_o hand●_n but_o bread_n he_o break_v not_o his_o own_o body_n but_o bread_n he_o do_v not_o eat_v his_o own_o body_n he_o do_v not_o drink_v his_o own_o blood_n but_o he_o drink_v of_o the_o fruit_n of_o the_o vine_n mat._n 26.29_o for_o so_o he_o call_v it_o after_o consecration_n and_o distribution_n i_o will_v not_o drink_v henceforth_o of_o the_o fruit_n of_o the_o vine_n etc._n etc._n in_o like_a manner_n st._n paul_n it_o be_v still_o this_o bread_n and_o this_o cup._n 1._o cor._n 11.26_o when_o our_o saviour_n say_v hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la what_o do_v hoc_fw-la stand_v for_o either_o it_o must_v signify_v this_o thing_n in_o my_o hand_n i._n e._n the_o bread_n or_o else_o his_o own_o body_n which_o body_n he_o hold_v in_o his_o hand_n utter_v these_o word_n hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la that_o be_v corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la a_o mere_a identical_a trifle_a proposition_n which_o according_a to_o all_o logic_n be_v most_o absurd_a and_o destroy_v the_o very_a nature_n of_o a_o sacrament_n which_o consist_v of_o two_o essential_a part_n the_o sign_n and_o the_o thing_n signify_v beside_o they_o of_o rome_n con●ess_n that_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n be_v not_o present_a under_o the_o species_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n when_o the_o priest_n begin_v to_o pronounce_v hoc_fw-la nor_o till_o he_o have_v utter_v the_o last_o syllable_n um_o hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la such_o poor_a shift_n these_o man_n be_v force_v to_o use_v as_o for_o antiquity_n so_o much_o boast_v of_o by_o those_o of_o rome_n i_o know_v that_o some_o of_o the_o father_n to_o draw_v man_n mind_n from_o the_o earthly_a element_n to_o heavenly_a mystery_n use_v now_o and_o then_o high_a rhetorical_a expression_n never_o dream_v of_o any_o substantial_a change_n of_o the_o element_n into_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n as_o be_v evident_a from_o iraeneus_n panis_n communis_fw-la post_fw-la consecrationem_fw-la non_fw-la est_fw-la amplius_fw-la panis_fw-la communis_fw-la sed_fw-la efficitur_fw-la eucharistia_n quae_fw-la constat_fw-la ex_fw-la duabus_fw-la naturis_fw-la terrenâ_fw-la &_o cael●sti_fw-la haec_fw-la oblatio_fw-la ●st_fw-la figura_fw-la corporis_fw-la &_o sanguinis_fw-la christi_fw-la ambrose_n 1._o ad_fw-la cor._n cap._n 11._o &_o lib._n 4._o de_fw-fr sacram._n non_fw-la dubitavit_fw-la dominus_fw-la dicere_fw-la hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la cum_fw-la dedit_fw-la fignum_fw-la svi_fw-la corporis_fw-la aug_n epist_n 23._o ad_fw-la bonifa_n &_o 12._o cap._n contra_fw-la adiman_n hoc_fw-la est_fw-la corpus_fw-la meum_fw-la i._n e._n typus_fw-la corporis_fw-la mei_fw-la ter●ull_a panem_fw-la &_o vinum_fw-la appellatione_fw-la corporis_fw-la &_o sanguinis_fw-la honoravit_fw-la non_fw-la naturam_fw-la quidem_fw-la mutans_fw-la sed_fw-la naturae_fw-la gratiam_fw-la adjiciens_fw-la theod._n dial_n 1._o &_o 2._o in_o a_o word_n the_o ancient_a father_n who_o oppose_v the_o eutychian_a haeresy_n do_v make_v use_n of_o the_o sacramental_a union_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n to_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n show_v that_o the_o humane_a nature_n of_o christ_n be_v not_o more_o change_v into_o the_o divine_a then_o the_o sacramental_a bread_n and_o wine_n be_v into_o the_o very_a body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n therefore_o they_o believe_v no_o such_o thing_n as_o that_o monstrous_a popish_a transubstantiation_n so_o that_o we_o see_v the_o falsity_n and_o absurdity_n of_o it_o by_o scripture_n antiquity_n common_a sense_n and_o reason_n beside_o the_o great_a danger_n of_o idolatry_n in_o worship_v a_o piece_n of_o bread_n if_o there_o be_v no_o transubstantiation_n as_o some_o of_o the_o papist_n themselves_o confess_v and_o they_o also_o acknowledge_v that_o if_o the_o priest_n that_o consecrate_v be_v not_o right_o ordain_v or_o that_o he_o do_v not_o actual_o intend_v to_o consecrate_v or_o that_o he_o omit_v any_o one_o ceremony_n which_o they_o call_v necessary_a at_o the_o time_n of_o consecration_n that_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n be_v not_o due_o consecrate_a and_o consequent_o no_o transubstantiation_n and_o therefore_o great_a probability_n that_o the_o papist_n in_o worship_v the_o host_n do_v frequent_o commit_v the_o very_a great_a sin_n of_o idolatry_n which_o be_v to_o i_o one_o great_a reason_n of_o forsake_v their_o communion_n firm._n true_o it_o be_v a_o substantial_a reason_n and_o such_o a_o one_o that_o have_v wrought_v upon_o other_o beside_o yourself_o however_o i_o desire_v to_o hear_v from_o you_o what_o further_a reason_n you_o have_v to_o leave_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n dub._n the_o next_o which_o i_o shall_v acquaint_v you_o with_o be_v the_o half_a communion_n so_o manifest_o against_o scripture_n and_o antiquity_n our_o bless_a saviour_n at_o the_o instituition_n of_o the_o sacrament_n command_v drink_v you_o all_o of_o this_o whereas_o at_o the_o give_v of_o the_o bread_n he_o say_v only_o take_v eat_v foresee_v and_o obviate_a this_o grand_a error_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n it_o be_v true_a the_o person_n then_o communicate_v be_v only_o his_o disciple_n which_o have_v receive_v their_o commission_n to_o preach_v the_o gospel_n before_o that_o time_n but_o not_o in_o that_o ample_a and_o full_a manner_n as_o they_o receive_v it_o after_o his_o resurrection_n as_o be_v plain_a from_o john_n 20_o 22_o 23._o and_o m●t._n 28_o 29._o but_o be_v it_o grant_v that_o they_o be_v all_o in_o full_a order_n and_o upon_o that_o account_n the_o cup_n be_v give_v they_o otherwise_o they_o shall_v not_o have_v receive_v it_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n the_o bread_n may_v be_v deny_v to_o the_o people_n because_o none_o but_o priest_n do_v then_o communicate_v but_o we_o know_v that_o a_o priest_n when_o he_o do_v not_o consecrate_v be_v in_o the_o place_n of_o a_o layman_n and_o consequent_o the_o disciple_n not_o consecrate_v at_o the_o supper_n be_v no_o better_o and_o therefore_o according_a to_o the_o doctrine_n and_o practice_v of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n shall_v not_o have_v receive_v the_o cup._n but_o what_o will_v they_o think_v of_o the_o whole_a church_n of_o corinth_n to_o who_o st._n paul_n send_v a_o first_o and_o second_o epistle_n they_o can_v imagine_v they_o be_v all_o priest_n observe_v then_o how_o ●e_n exhort_v all_o of_o they_o to_o examine_v themselves_o in_o order_n to_o the_o receive_n of_o the_o holy_a eucharist_n under_o both_o kind_n 1._o cor_fw-la 11._o this_o be_v so_o evident_a that_o our_o adversary_n have_n nothing_o to_o reply_v as_o for_o antiquity_n the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v clear_o against_o it_o as_o jam_fw-la able_a to_o demonstrate_v from_o express_a testimony_n of_o the_o father_n but_o our_o learned_a writer_n have_v ●aved_v i_o that_o trouble_n those_o that_o please_v may_v peruse_v chami●re_o ch●mnitius_n jewel_n cracanthorp_n the_o confession_n of_o the_o council_n of_o co●stance_n stand_v as_o a_o last_a monument_n against_o the_o popish_a innovation_n in_o this_o particular_a the_o word_n be_v these_o we_o decree_v in_o like_a manner_n that_o though_o in_o the_o primitive_a church_n the_o holy_a eucharist_n be_v receive_v under_o both_o kind_n by_o the_o faithful_a yet_o this_o custom_n to_o avoid_v some_o danger_n and_o scandal_n be_v reasonable_o