Selected quad for the lemma: tradition_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
tradition_n	church_n	find_v	scripture_n	3,607	5	6.0436	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06697	A profitable dialogue for a peruerted papist. Or a little labour of a lay men tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist: namely, by laying open vnto him his ovvne errour, in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre. Composed in dialogue maner, as it were betweene a simple lay man, and certayne graue diuines, and published onely for the benefit of the lay Papist. VVritten by R.M. gent. and student in Diuinity.	R. M., student in divinity.	1609 (1609)	STC 17149; ESTC S103258	25,816	46

forme c. Compare the signe with the trueth thou shalt vnderstand the similitude for the figure ought to be like the trueth for truely that body hath the first forme and figure and circumscription and that I may say at once the substance of a body but it was made immortall after the resurrection c. Lay. Most true it is graue Father Christ hath still the true substance of a Body and therefore the signe and the thing signified being alike those Heretickes whosoeuer they be that séeme to proue the forme of Bread in the Sacrament to be there without the substance of Bread do thereby séeme to proue also Christ to a haue a fantasticall Body that is a Body in shew without the substance of a body But thou doost here most playnely confute that palpable absurdity therein thou art agréeable to the true doctrine of the Primitiue Church for what Christian liuing a thousand yeres since or vpwards did euer affirme such a reall presence in the Sacrament that thereby Christ God and man is to be swallowed into the bodyes of many damned creatures We find many proofes from Antiquity to the contrary as partly hath bene noted already and yet for more witnesse thereof we note S. Ambrose also who sayth playnely touching this sacred Bread euen Christ himselfe that it is not bread which goeth into the body h In his ● Booke of Sacraments Chap. 4. but the Bread of eternall life which strengthneth the substance of our soules c. He sayth not as some peruersly misconster him Non transi●e in corpus per nutritionem i Bellarm. vpon the Eucharist the 2. Booke 14. Chap. it passeth not through the body by nourishment but Non vadit in corpus it goeth not into the body c. Who then can mistake him here but he that wilfully makes himselfe ignorant euen he which by such vndirect dealing peruerts thy words also saying k Bellarm. in the same Booke Chap. 27. Where thou doost affirme the Bread and wine to remayne after sanctification both in substance nature figure and forme as they were before thou doost thereby meane onely the sensible accidents and visible formes do so remayne but the substance to be changed But if such weake defending of errours be allowed for good and lawfull in vayne then it is to bring any testimony from antiquity against Heretikes But we hope that such peruerse answeres from the peruerter may proue in good time a good motiue for the peruerted to looke about him betimes and not both to liue and dye a childe in vnderstanding for ignorance cannot excuse those that wilfully refuse to walke by the light of holy Scripture The word of God is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light vnto my paths saith the Prophet Dauid * Psalm 119. It is as a light shining in a dark place sayth S. Peter * 2. Pet. 1. By which we are giuen to vnderstand that as the Sunne giues light to the corporall eye so doth the holy Scripture giue light to the spirituall eye Whereupon it followes that if neyther our aduersaryes nor our selues would wilfully become blind and then trust to the leading of others we should soone all agrée in one outward profession for who is he that can beleeue contrary to that which he séeeth or where is that spirituall man so contentious as not to allow those Traditions and customes of the Church which are not contrary to the expresse word of God We grant from the Sacrament according to that trueth which we finde in holy Scripture * Iohn 6. 63. the true eating drinking of the flesh and blood of Christ spiritually we say word for word as Saint Basil said aboue a thousand yeeres since l In his 141. Epistle We eate his flesh and drinke his blood being made partakers of him by incarnation and sensible life of the word and wisdome for he called all his mysticall conuersation in the flesh flesh and blood and made manifest that doctrine which depends of his life actuall naturall and diuine by which the soule is nourished exercised and trayned vp to the contemplation of heauenly things c. but we deny such a grosse eating and drinking therein that thereby both the righteous and the vnrighteous are made partakers of Christ which doctrine is most manifest against the sacred Scripture m 1. Cor. 10. 21. we deny also such a grosse eating drinking therein that thereby Lay people must not communicate with the blessed cup of our Lord fearing lest they should shead his prectous blood vpon their garments or lest by the weakenesse of their stomackes they should bring vp againe their Creator by belchings and vomitings which absurdity the Church hath long since confuted as witnesseth S. Aug. n Against Faustus the 20 Booke and Chap. 13. for indéed according to the doctrine of her head Christ Iesus so doth the true Church teach alwayes But neuer did the true Church teach that our Sauiour Christ hath any reall being in the body of a wicked creature for Christ himselfe is most playne against that vayne doctrine And briefly to proue that to be true we will now set aside all other witnesses and proofes whatsoeuer and humbly beséech the author of this blessed Sacrament euen Iesus Christ himselfe to resolue vs herein Speake holy Lambe of God thou that art the onely Sauiour of the world speake so we most humbly beséech thée that thy words herein may proue a swéete sauour of life to the small remnant of thy holy Church in this corrupt age Teach vs swéete Lord whether any can haue true life without eating and drinking that blessed flesh and blood of thine and also whether any can misse of that true life eating and drinking the same blessed foode Christ My sonne o Iohn 6. 48. to 36. I am that Bread of life your fathers did eate Manna in the wildernesse and are dead This is that bread which came downe from heauen that he which eateth of it should not dye I am that liuing bread which came downe from heauen If any man eate of this bread he shall liue for euer and the bread that I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world c. Verily verily I say vnto you except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye haue no life in you Whosoeuer eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternall life and I will rayse him vp at the last day for my flesh is meate indeed and my blood is drinke indeed Lay. My Lord and God these words of thine are profound and to the spirituall man spirit and life although to the carnall man farre otherwise for notwithstanding thou hast commaunded vs all not to adde any thing to thy sacred word p Deut. 〈◊〉 2 and 12. 32. 〈◊〉 22. 18. yet these carnall-minded men can not vnderstand these thy comfortable speeches

Christ can not haue condēned members c. Who then can poynt to those that can not erre Although both good and euill i In his booke of the vnity of the Church chap. 18. may giue and receyue the Sacrament of Baptisme yet not any are spiritually regenerated built together in the body and members of Christ but the good Doubtlesse in the good is that Church by whom it is sayd k Canti Cap. ● 2. Like a Lilly among the thornes so is my Loue among the daughters c. For it is in those that build vpon the Rocke that is those which heare the words of Christ and doe them for it was sayd to Peter l Mat. 16. 18. conf●ssing Christ the Sonne of God And vpon this Rocke I will build my Church It is not then in th●se which build vpon sand that is those which heare the words of Christ and do them not for he sayth m Mat. 7. 24. He that heareth my words and doeth the same I will liken him to a wise man which builds his hous● vpon a rocke And in the same place a little a●t●r he sayth He which heareth my words and doeth them not I will liken him to a foolish man which builds his house vpon sand c. Those then that are incorporated by the ioyning of charity dwelling vpon the Rocke and standing together bright as a Lilly among thornes they shall verily poss●sse the kingdome of God But those which buyld vpon ●and or are accounted as thornes who can doubt that they shall not possesse the Kingdome of GOD Truely the Sacrament of Bapti●me profits not such c. They shal not possesse the kingdome of God and therefore they are no● on the Rocke and because they are not on the Rock without all doubt they are not to bee accounted in the Church because vpon this Rocke sayth he I will build my Church c. Lay. To those that are not wilfully obstinate in erronious opinions thou hast sayd inough for this matter most reuerend Father for here thou dost most plainly declare vnto vs who they are of whome the true Church the Spouse of Christ cōsisteth euen those that heare the words of Christ and do them they onely build vpō the Rock against which hel gates cannot preuavl● for as thou dost most truely affirme whosoeuer builds not vpon that Rock without al doubt they are not to be accounted in the true Church because vpon the same Rocke that Church is built But what is thy opinion touching Peter and Peters successours in Peters chayre which in the new Law as some say is answerable to the chayre of Moses If they heare the words of Christ and do them not shall they yet notwithstanding be obeyed as men that cannot erre Aug. My sonne n In his 〈◊〉 Sermon vpon S. Mat. This name that he should be called Peter was giuen him of our Lord because by that figure he might signifie the Church for Christ is the Rocke Peter the Christian people for that Rocke is a principall name Therefore he is Peter from the Rocke not the Rocke from Peter euen as Christ is not called from a Christian but a Christian from Christ Thou art therefore Peter sayth he and vpon this Rocke which thou hast confessed vpon this Rocke which thou hast acknowledged saying Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God I will build my Church that is vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God I will buyld my Church vpon mee I will buyld thee not mee vpon thee for men willing to be built vpon men say I verily am of Paul but I belong to Apollos but I am of Cephas which is Peter But others which would not build vpon Peter but vpon the Rocke say But I am of Christ c. 1 Cor. 1. 12. Many in the Church follow after earthly businesses o In his 46. Treatis vpon S. Iohn yet they preach Christ and by them the voice of Christ is heard but the sheep follow not the hirelings but the voyce of the Shepherd by meanes of the hirelings Note the Lord himselfe doth declare vnto you what hirelings are p Mat. 23. 2 3. The Scribes and the Pharises sayth he sit in the chayre of Moses what they say do but what they do that do not What other thing sayd he but By hirelings heare the voice of the Shepherd for fitting in Moses chayre they teach the Law of God therefore God teacheth by them But if they teach their owne neyther heare nor do what they say for truely such seeke their owne not those things which are of Iesus Christ c. Lay. It séemes then by thy iudgement that we must not build vpon men of what calling or place soeuer vnlesse what they teach be agréeable to the Law of God and herein indéed thou doost follow the good counsell and aduice of blessed Paul who sayth plainely touching the visible Church q Gala. 1. 8. Though that we or an Angell frō heauen preach vnto you otherwise then that which we haue preached vnto you let him be accursed c. And thereby proues inuincibly that no doctrine is to be receyued in the Church although constituted by the Church contrary and besides that pure doctrine taught from the beginning And the same thing doth S. Iohn proue also r 1. Iohn ● 24. ● 1. and therefore our aduersaries of Rome would gladly proue some of their owne doctrines to be the traditions of the Church receyued first from the Apostles themselues and vainely they boast as a great matter against vs that we are not able directly to shew the time when the Church of Rome fell into any Error nor by whom shée was first brought into errour But all this is but vaine cauelling for the deuill hath not so little craft in him as to change good to euill suddenly for then the euil could hardly take place but by little and little which craft by a great nūber is little or nothing perceyued at the first he brings much euill into the Church By continuance of time the often droppes of water haue made a hole in the hardest stone but none could tell the time directly when that hole was made It is sufficient to proue the Church of Rome to teach now contrary to the doctrine taught in the same Church aboue a thousand yeres since which thing is easie to be proued by the helpe of thée and other ancient witnesses They séeme also to make good and lawfull their owne Doctrines and Traditions besides the Scriptures by that place in the Gospell where our Sauiour sayth to his Disciples s Iohn 16. 12 13. I haue yet many things to say to you but ye can not beare them now howbeit when he is come which is the Spirit of Truth he shall lead you into all trueth c. But what sayest thou ancient Augustine to this delusion of theirs Aug. My sonne t In his 97. Treatis vpon S. Iohn

A Profitable Dialogue for a peruerted Papist OR A little Labour of a Lay man tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist namely by laying open vnto him his owne errour in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre Composed in Dialogue maner as it were betweene a simple Lay man and certayne graue Diuines and published onely for the benefit of the Lay Papist Written by R. M. Gent. and Student in Diuinity Brethren be not children in vnderstanding 1. Cor. 14. 20. If God be on our side who can be against vs Rom. 8. 31. Seeke and ye shall finde Math. 7. 7. LONDON Printed by Simon Stafford dwelling in the Cloth-fayre neere the signe of the red Lion 1609. The Contents of this Booke THis small Treatise is diuided into two parts 1 THe first part contaynes certayne proofs frō Antiquity that it is onely the society of the faithfull the holy Catholike Church that can not finally erre and that the visible Church of Rome or where else soeuer may erre And therefore not lawfull for any one Bishop on earth to be admitted vniuersall Bishop or supreme head of the vniuersall Church 2 THe second part confirmes the former proofes by manifest proofes also from Antiquity that the visible Church of Rome doth erre in a principall poynt of Christian doctrine as namely touching the Sacrament of the blessed Body and Blood of our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ The Authour to the learned Reader GOod Reader my selfe being a Lay man and altogether vnskilfull in Artes I am therefore to entreat of thee being a scholer that thou wilt not so much regard the maner and forme of this my weake worke as the matter and substance it selfe which is no other thing in effect but certaine manifest proofes from Antiquity that the Church of Rome doth erre proued by such ancient witnesses as the Papists themselues allow for lawfull and so forcible are those witnesses against those Romish aduersaries that if hereafter any of them shall go about to reply against this Treatise ensuing they shall but thereby the more lay open their owne follies and shame in striuing against the inuincible streame for great is the Trueth and it will preuayle yea what can more confound the learned aduersary or as S. Paul sayth * Tit. ● 10. 11. condemne him to erre in his owne iudgement then to find himselfe altogether vnable without absurd cauelling and vndirect dealing to resist the weakenesse of a simple Lay man fighting in Trueths behalfe for notwithstanding my Sixe demaunds to the learned Papists be the simplest booke that euer hitherto hath bene brought foorth against them yet are they not able to reply directly against it without absurdity Whereupō I doubt they will seeme to skorne to vouchsafe it an answere But here by the way I acknowledge and that sincerely that it is vnmeete for any Lay man although neuer so great a scholer to take to himselfe the office of ministery in the Church or to clime vp to the Pulpit before he be lawfully called to that holy and reuerend function But for Lay men decently to instruct and admonish one another it is no nouelty but a thing allowable in the Church many yeeres since as witnesseth S. Hierome who sayth playnely * Vpon the Ep●stle to the Colo. Chap. 3. that the Apostle Paul doth teach that Lay men ought to haue the Scriptures abundantly and to instruct and admonish one another c. But if it be tolerable for Lay men to admonish one another it followes then because all are not scholers that some of them may be also tolerated to write simply and playnely and according to that maner of speach which the common vulgar sort do vsually speake who neuer speake more eloquently then when they speake trueth sincerely and playnely and then they thinke they speake very well if they be vnderstood very well But perhaps some learned Aduersary will obiect according to his vsuall maner against these proofes which I haue here cited from some of the ancient Fathers liuing in the Church aboue a thousand yeeres since that they haue bene brought forth already by diuers learned men long since answered by learned men also therfore in vaine for me being a Lay man vnlearned to cite them againe thinking that I haue but gathered them here and there out of other mens workes where they haue bene collected before and for that cause likewise from me the lesse to be regarded These things being obiected I answere True it is that the same proofes haue long since bene brought forth against the Aduersaries by thē also answered but how well or how ill they haue bin answered let that be tryed by those Christians which are of soūd iudgement for this I da●e auouch that a lawfull witnesse being brought against any mā it is no lesse then an absurd answer in that man whosoeuer to reply that the same witnesse in speaking of one thing doth thereby meane another But into the same strayte are all Heretiks brought by resisting the apparāt truth And this is a principall marke to be aymed at in this our corrupt age in which there is so much dissension and controuersie among professed Christians For if our aduersaries might be permitted to answere so absurdly and to passe from one poynt to another before some one poynt onely be throughly decided all the labour wee take to cleanse them from their infectious spots of errour would proue but labour in vayne but God be thanked the faithfull know well how to preuent the silly shiftes of Heretikes and so with little labour eyther to conuert them or confound them for commonly the Heretike may be condemned by his owne mouth his doctrine contradicting some trueth in Scripture which himselfe professeth to beleeue for where traditions and customes of men are regarded before holy Scripture there ignorance doth soone beget errour especially if diuers things called by one name be not so perfectly distinguished but that the one may be taken for the other But let the ignorant learne first touching faith A true faith which worketh by loue is one thing and a verball or vaine faith another Secondly touching iustification A iustification before God is one thing and a iustification before men another for God iustifieth according to the inward heart by the good tree true faith but man iustifieth according to the outward declaration by the fruits proceeding frō that tree * Luke 6. 43. good workes S. Paul treating of the first iustification denyes not the second for he sayth If Abraham were iustified by workes he hath wherein to reioyce but not with God c. γ Rom. 4. S. Iames treating of the second denyes not the first for he graunts Abraham beleeuing God it was imputed vnto him for righteousnesse c γ Iames. 2. Thirdly touching the Church The society of the faithfull which liue by true faith and therefore hell gates not possible to preuayle against them is one thing and a