formality of speech doth import a promise in the future not a duty in the Subjunctive yet the promise doth not include an impossibility of error no more then the promise made to your Church as you suppose doth exclude all error but that which is destructive Thirdly The future in the Hebrew doth not contradict a subjunctive in the interpretation when the scope bears it since the Hebrews as you may know have no proper Subjunctive And it is proper to the scope to understand it as of duty they should keep knowledge whereupon â—â—ey are charged for breach of duty therefore our Interpretation in this is more sound then your dispute upon it And therefore that which you say in your 19. Number that any man may ask the Priests of the Church what is the Known Doctrine of the Church then let him rest securely when he knowes that that is unreasonable because the Priests are not Infallible May he not rest more securely in Scripture for the Church in all things is not as before infallible the Scripture is in all which it proposeth but the Church you say is not in danger of taking in any damnative error Well but the Scriptures sets out none at all but all things are not determined in Scripture Well but all things are not determined in the Church but all things necessary are taught in the Church which may keep us from damnative error Well and are not all things necessary taught in the Scripture why then not to the Law and Testimony why to the Cistern when we may have it at the Fountain why not to the Scripture particularly when what Authority the Church hath it hath from the Scripture in general and why doth your Church take away from the people the use of Scripture and why may not we be informed as sufficiently by our Priests as you by yours notwithstanding this Text especially since we go by Scripture you by Tradition or humane definition And if the Priests of yours were Infallible can you say Infallibly that they will not deceive you How miserably then do you provide for the poor people when you would have them require at their mouth not the Law of God but the Doctrine of the Church That which comes on in the same Number about Tradition before Scripture was answered before it was written The Word in the Substance of it was before the Church which was begotten by it and when there is now as much need and as great certainty of Tradition as formerly then urge it And I thank you for Saint Irenaeus's Testimony I do not lye at catch but the most convincing dispute is by our Adversaries principles not the Fathers but yours as you apply them for we can make very good use of his words If the Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveyed to us as the Gospel was before it was written and this confirmes for me what was said before but now I assume the Scripture is now left to us therefore is there no need of certain conveyance of Tradition to us Surely you have a minde to help us for your own good Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations you speak of did rely onely upon Tradition they might be commended to the doctrine of the Gospel by Tradition and then not believe it for the sake of Tradition for this is the state of the question Tradition in matters of Faith unwritten is of equal authority to Scripture Secondly If you say Salvation was written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost this may be meant to be done not onely beside Scripture but besides Tradition and thus was it done extraordinarily But why Thirdly Might not the Holy Spirit infuse Faith of the Gospel into those Nations by some of those who were Apostles or sent from them to Preach it and then the Tradition you speak of is the matter of the Gospel which is written and so it doth not appertain to the question of Traditions of proper name which you say are beside that which is written though not against it and then your discourse is fallacious from that which is the object of the Gospel delivered to that which is beside it delivered which ambiguity of the word Tradition if it doth deceive you yet doth it not consequently deceive me but if you mean Tradition here onely of the manner of communicating the matter of Scripture without writing then the former answer may satisfie you that Tradition was then more certain and they were more assured of it by the Spirit of God then we are now And also it might be to them as the Star to the Wise Men for leading them to Christ By the light of the Star they were guided to Christ but when they came to him they saw him not by the light of the Star but by the light of the Day so some might be directed to the Gospel by Tradition before they had the Scripture and then believed it by the light of Scripture You add also neither did the Apostles or their Successors take any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such Languages as they could all or the greater part understand So you This is readily denyed for God did take care that the New Testament should for the most part of it at least be first written in Greek And the Greek you know in the notion of the New Testament is contradistinguished to the Jew because so many of the world besides the Jews were Greeks and the Greeks Language was the most common then and therefore saith Tully in his Oration for the Poet Archias Graeca per totum orbem leguntur And God by his gracious Providence hath taken care that the Scripture should be translated into divers languages as you may know that so several Nations might have it familiar to them in their own Tongue which must condemn your Church for not permitting of it ordinarily to the people in their own dialect and also doth conclude that Tradition is no Infallible provision for a rule of Faith for how shall the people undoubtedly know that the Traditions were clearly discerned true from them which were false and also that they were faithfully handed through so many Centuries to the present time And yet if so this would not be sufficient for your use unlesse you or others could finde these two points more one how to evade a Circle by proving the Traditions by the Church and the Church by the Traditions and the second this that those Traditions have Infallibly decided the differences betwixt us which the Antients did not professedly handle as having not provocations thereunto If any thing be touched by the by you may know the rule Aliud agentis parva autoritas In your 20. Number you make a recapitulation of what you think you have done and I think you have undone untill you come to Sixthly I have found a lawful Judge who can be informed of all Controversies
them and which not For the sense even in necessary matters as I have shewed in the last Chapter is far from being evident Again Tradition doth of its own selfe naturally continue in its full force and vigour after the same things are wrirten as well as it did before as appears by what I just now said of the unwritten traditions by which many men only know France or Spain yea rather the increasing of it by being divulged in writing by most credible and manifold Authors doth very much strengthen this former tradition so far is it from taking any thing from it wherefore God must purposely by a miracle have infringed the course of Nature which no man can say he did if the former Traditions of the Church which before the writing of any Scripture did fully suffice alone to ground an infallible faith of such and such points should grow then to lose their sufficiency in order to the same effect when they were strengthned by so great an authority as that of the Sacred Writers was Hence is confuted the opinion of Protestants teaching the Authority of Traditions to have expired when the whole Canon of the Scripture was finished though not before For which they have no Scripture at all And if they go by reason they are to say Tradition was rather more strengthned yea if they will not say this yet consequently they should say that Tradition revived againe at least in part when some part of the Canon was lost yet you ought not to say that Tradition expired at the finishing of the Canon without it can be shewed that God did expresse this unto the Church so to undeceive those many thousands who had then reason to think that they might securely build their beliefe upon that upon which for about foure thousand yeares so many had untill that day built their faith When Saint Paul or any other Canonical writer preached first that doctrine which afterward he did write did the beliefe of those thousands which was at first sufficiently grounded upon his preaching come to lose its certainty or rather to gain a new degree of certainty when Saint Paul came afterward to write that they must hold the Traditions he had delivered to them 2 Thess 2. 1 Gal. 2. and that though an Angel should come and teach them contrary to what they had received by his Orall Tradition they should account him Anathema And again Have thou a form of sound words which thou hast heard of me 1. Tim. chap. 1. And again chap. 2. the things which thou hast heard he saith not read of me by many witnesses these commend to faithfull men which shall be fit to teach others also Would the writing of such Scriptures make them think any force taken from Traditions or rather make them conceive that Traditions are to be stood upon now more then ever before Again what wise man would put out one light costing him nothing because it will be shining of its own nature unlesse you will needs have it hidden because he hath now another light but so that even with both these lights many of his house-hold will still remain in darkness But if you say that if Scripture had not been given us we should have had a more certain Tradition given unto us I would know of you upon what account the Tradition of so Noble a Church as Christs Church is should be of lesse credit or certainty then the Tradition of that farre lesse Noble Church which was in the Law of Nature What meanes had they then given by God to secure their Tradition for the space of 4000. years which we want for the having secured our Traditions for these last 1654. yeares This meanes you can by no means assigne and therefore by all means you must grant the Traditions of this Nobler Church to have been as securely preserved from Corruption for these fewer yeares as those Traditions of a farre lesse Noble Church were preserved without corruption for above 4000 yeares Again the Tradition of Christs primitive Church before the Scriptures were written and sufficiently promulged which Tradition did by an infallible authority recommend all things was to be believed upon her sole authority and so was the Tradition of the first Church before there was any Scripture and therefore by good consequence she in the first place recōmended herauthority to be believed as divine and infallible and all the true believers believed it to be so which they could not have done without God had said so for all divine beliefe resteth upon the saying of God God therefore said by that his Church that her Traditions were infallible for her authority Now if God said this shall we upon your fallible discourse come to say the Church's Traditions are now no longer infallible though God said they were so and never yet expressed the ceasing of their infallibility By this you will see whether my Answer hath helped you or your reply helped me concerning what will follow out of St. Irenaeus 13. For this serves for making good what I said out of St. Irenaeus so farre as he is a witness which a profane author might have been of what hapned so near his times For as for his authority as he is a most grave Father of the Church and a most believing that to be true which he commended to writing as most true I doe not presse it against you Yet because here you thank St. Irenaeus for his testimony and make a shew as if it were for you though you cannot invent the means by which Tradition should have ben conveighed more certainly supposing there had been no Scripture I could not but observe how so soon as you have hugged him you cast him off again with small respect when you say Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations did rely only upon Tradition They might be commended to the doctrine of the Gospel by Tradition and then not believe it for the sake of Tradition How flatly be these your words against St. Irenaeus who clearly declareth all himselfe to tell us upon what ground we must have been obliged to believe though the Apostles had never written any Scriptures at all What saith he if the Apostles had not left us the Scriptures must we not have followed that order of Tradition which they delivered to those to whose Charges they left the Church to be governed To this order of tradition by the unwritten word many barbarous Nations do assent who have believed in Christ without any writings keeping diligently the ancient Traditions What bringeth he this example of these Barbarous Nations for but to shew that we might with divine faith believe upon the sole account of that very tradition which the Apostles de facto left to those to whom they left the Churches goverment although the Apostles had never written at all at any time He therefore was none of those who would say with you neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations
teaching them what the universal Church holds to be Gods Law than by teaching them what they themselves conceive to be Gods law as you would have them do Ans This doth not contradict If they say it is more likely we can say it But what is this to Faith And upon this condition they are undone For which of their private Priests are able to say positively that this is the doctrine of the whole Church for all ages and places since the Apostles The Church otherwise considered hath no considerable Authority and so we mean the universal Church Secondly Although thus the Church is not the regula regulans but the regula regulata yet they cannot bring the consent of the universal Church for the points of difference Ad num 11. 12. 13. 14. Herein he gives me many words towards asserting Tradition to be a sufficient bottom of faith but in all these how little he takes away of my answer any one may say better then I. In the beginning of the eleventh he goes upon a false supposition that in the times before Moses the traditions were received by the Church upon the infallibility of the Church They were received by the Church not infallibly by the Church The Church had it self herein as a mean of proposall not as the last motive of faith Their faith was terminated by the spirit of God in the matter of tradition was not determined by the Church's Authoritative delivery the objectum quod of their faith was not the Churches proposal Then 2. supposing what we do not grant yet there is not now the same reason for the Church because they had more appearances tâ—en of God to and in the Church then now there is or hath been since the Apostles times And therefore the rule is good Distingue tempora 3. This will make a circle How were they assured infallibly of tradition by the Church How were they infallibly assured of the Church by tradition then the resolution of their faith was not into the credit of the Church as infallible Therefore doth my Antagonist in vain say to me shew the ground they had there to hold the Church infallible Nay the proofe hereof must come from the affirmer Asserentis est probare They are to make good here two things first that they did hold their Church infallible otherwise how could any of the people hold it to be infallible unles the Church did so determin of iâ— selfe and then that though they did hold it to be infallible yet that it was so and must be so otherwise they could not believe anything Afterwards he makes a perâ—triction of my distinction that the word in substance of it was before the Church which was begotten by it and then he tells me what I adde thereunto that when there is as much need and as great a certainty of tradition as formerly then he may urge the argument Here he shifts and shuffles He tell me that I must understand it of the unwritten word and to be only in orall â—radition Right I understand it so But what is this to 〈◊〉 question whether the manner of conveyance by tâ—e 〈◊〉 in way of orall tradition was infallible and then whether we are bound to take all or part of necessary doctrine from the Church this way And can they now conclude the Church infallible in the matter of tradition besâ—ide the word written by their tradition of the word unwritten And can they shew that the Iews were equally bound to any Tradition before the word written which was not agreable to the word afterwards written Otherwise how can they supply this to their purpose in urging Traditions differing from Scripture in matter equally to Scripture as the Trent Council defines as before Let them come to the point and satisfie demands In his discourse following I can grant him all untill he come to this they only had Gods word revealed by tradition This we must debate upon as being ambiguously delivered for only may relate to the subject they and so the sense is the Iewes only had Gods word revealed by Tradition but this is concerned here or only may have relation to Gods word as to the matter which was revealed and so the sense is that they had only that word which was revealed by tradition and this comes not to the point neither or only may relate to the manner of revealing by tradition and thus indeed it is proper for the debate but thus it is denied if we take it thus that the word of God was no otherwise assured to them than by tradition though they onely being Jews had onely that word of God which was revealed by tradition to believe yet had they not only tradition by which they did beleeve And therefore his conclusion must be naught and all he saies to that purpose even to the end of his Paragraph In the twelfth he deales about the need of tradition and he saies that the need or necessity of Tradition which you conceive to have been greater then than now doth not make the Traditions more Credible Ans True it is that simply the need of them doth not make them to be more credible if they be to be believed but there is the question whether there is now any to be believed necessarily in point of faith when there is not such need of them Scripture is as credible when we are heaven in regard of it self yet there we have no need of it but as since we have no need of it there we have reason to believe that there it will not take place so neither should Traditions when there is not that need of them My answer then did bear it self upon this that if there were that necessity of Tradition now as then he might urge the argument because God have would provided sufficiently for security of tradition now as then falsum prius And we may take his own similitude those that have read many credible books of France have they any need of orall Tradition to believe that there is such a Kingdome as France he saies no yet these last are as certain he saies Well then no more need have we of tradition for the doctrine of Christ which we sufficiently read in Scripture So then although he concludes Traditions hopefull and superflua non nocent yet can he not conclude them as necessary which should have been demonstrated But this he would doe in following words even now when we have Scriptures and Traditions we have ever had with them a perpetual succession of horrible Divisions opening still wider and wider Again odd reflexions upon Scripture but it is well he jopnes Traditions with it to take part of the consequence as he thinks and yet it may be he does not think so but that the cause of the Divisions is only Scripture and had we had no Scriptures we should have had fewer Divisions Doth he think so Then how is Scripture necessary as they generally confesse when it
because the Scripture can not deceive whosoever doth fear lest that he be deceived through the Obscurity of this question may ask Counsel touching it of the Church whom without any doubt the Scripture it self doth shew The same S. Aug. l. 4. de Trin. c. 6. saith No lover of peace will be against the Church And Ep. 118. c. 5. he plainly terms it Most insolent madness to dispute against that which the whole Church holdeth I will insist no longer upon the Testimony of the Fathers of which I might pour a whole shower against you lest I receive the ordinary Answer that this their Opinion was one of their Navi Spots or Blemishes and therefore shall be rejected but will â—â—ge your own Authors and Protestants to whom perhaps you will give more Credit Calvin upon Esay expounding the words of the 59 Chap. My Spirit which is in thee and my words which I have put in thy Mouth shall not depart from thy Mouth and from the Mouth of thy Seed and of thy Seeds Seed saith our Lord from henceforward and for ever saith He promiseth that the Church shall never be deprived of this inestimable good but that it shall alwayes be governed by the holy Ghost and supported with heavenly doctrine Again soon after The Promise is such that the Lord will so assist the Church and have such care of her that he will never suffer her to be deprived of true doctrine And his Scholar Beza de haeret à Civili Magistratu puniendis p. 69. confesseth that the Promise of our Saviour of the Assistance of the holy Ghost was not made onely to the Apostles but rather to the whole Church D. Saravia in defens tract de div Ministr gradib p. 8. saith The holy Spirit which beareth rule in the Church is the true Interpreter of Scriptures from him therefore is to be fetched the true Interpretation and since he cannot be contrary to himself who ruled the Primitive Church and governed the same by Bishops those now to reject is not certes consonant to Verity Our Lutheran Adversaries of Wittenberg Harm of Confess Sect. 10. p. 332 333. Confess Witten Art 30. not onely confess the Church to have Authority to bear witness of the holy Scripture and to interpret the same but also affirm that She hath received from her husband Christ a certain Rule to wit the Prophetical and Apostolical preaching confirmed by Miracles from heaven according unto the which she is bound to interpret those places of Scripture which seem to be obscure and to judge of doctrines Field also l. 4. c. 19 20. Sect. The Second acknowledgeth in the Church a Rule of faith descending by tradition from the Apostles according unto which he will have the Scriptures expounded And we cannot doubt but that she hath followed this Rule having such Assistance from Gods holy Spirit Furthermore the same Dr. Field in the Epistle to his Treatise of the Church professeth thus Seeing the controversies of Religion are grown in number so many and in Nature so Intricate that few have time and leisure fewer strength of understanding to examine them What remaineth for Men desirous of Satisfaction in things of such Consequence but diligently to search out which among all the Societies of Men in the World is that blessed Company of holy Ones that houshold of faith that Spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her directions and rest in her Judgment For brevity I will omit many other of our Adversaries who are of the same Minde and will now press harder upon you Surely if we believe the Creed the Church is holy if the Scripture She is the Spouse of our Saviour without spot or wrinkle which Eulogies and indeed glorious titles would nothing well become her if she can teach us that which is false This Scripture also gives us these known doctrines and directions That the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth 1 Tim. 3. v. 15 c. That the Church is built upon a Rock and the Gates of hell shall not prevail against her Matth. 16. v. 18. He that will not hear the Church let him be to thee as the Heathen and the Publican Matth. 18. v. 17. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me Luke 10. v. 16. Loe I am with you even to the Consummation of the World Matth. 28. v. 20. I will ask the father and he will give you another Paraclete that he may abide with you the Spirit of truth Jo. 14. v. 16. And again yet many things I have to say unto you but you cannot bear them now but when the Spirit of truth cometh he shall teach you all truth Jo. 16. v. 12 13. to omit many other the like passages is Scripture Now this Church whose Authority is thus warranted did praecede the Scripture which for a great part thereof was written but upon Emergent Occasions as Field Hook Covel and other our Adversaries have confessed which Occasions had they not been perhaps we never had known this Scripture Suppose then we had lived in those times when there had been no such Scripture as many did some part thereof being not written above sixty years after our Saviours Ascension Ought we not then to have believed the Churches tradition and preached word This Church was called the Pillar and Ground of Truth before the words were seen in writing and the like I might say by the other places before cited which are now in the Scripture but were delivered by word of mouth to the Church before ever they were written by all which places the Authority of the Church is commended to us and we referred to the said Church as a Guide in all our doubts And all these words of God were no less to be believed and obeyed before they were written then since Even the Scripture it self is believed upon the Tradition and Authority of the Church being part of the Credenda it proposeth nor could we at this day have known which books were true now Canonical which Spurious but by the Churches decision and Proposal as the said learned Mr. Hooker and other our Adversaries do acknowledge Again who doth not ground his belief upon the Church upon what doth he ground it but upon his own fancy or private Interpretation of Scripture the true Sourse and Nurce of all Heresy And such as these may indeed be found upon ancient Account as Helvidius Vigilantius and the rest of Hereticks as the Catholick Church did then account them Now to that which is insinuated That the Scripture was sometime acknowledged the Rule of Faith and Manners it is answered that it is so now but this doth no way hinder the Churches being the Ground of our Belief for the Church is both the Ground of our believing the Scripture and also the Interpreter of Scripture as is above confessed by our Adversaries
Luke 10.16 We say first this seems not to be rightly applyed to the businesse we are about for this was directed not to the Governors of the Church but to the seventy Disciples or Elders which were sent by Christ to preach the VVord Secondly If you doe extend it to the Representative Church yet doth it not command subjection of judgement alwayes to whatsoever is said but not to despise them as is intimated by what followes and he that despiseth you despiseth me VVe may differ without despising And Thirdly If you will from hence argue that whatsoever was determined in a Council was also determined by Christ then Honorius was by Christ determined an Heretick as you may see in the practicks of the sixth Oecumenical Synod as Nilus in his second Book And if you say that the Church cannot erre in a General Council then resolve Nilus the reason why the Pope doth not hear a General Council for if that General Council did not erre as by your argument it must not then the Pope did erre As for the other places of Holy Scripture which you produce of Christs being with his Church to the end of the world and of his promise of leading his Church into all truth VVe answer together First Though the promise be extendible to the end of the world yet it is not necessary to understand it so as that there shall alwaies be equality of assistance to the times of the Apostles which is hard to affirm since we cannot say that there is such necessity for such assistance or such dispositions in the Governours of the Church to receive such assistance Secondly The Promise is made good by a sufficient direction of the Church to their end of happinesse although not without possibility of error For every simple error doth not deprive the Church of Salvation and then it may also recover it self from errour by more perusal of the Scriptures But if it may at all erre it hath not the property of a ground of Faith nor a just capacity of an Infallible communication of all things which are to be believed You go on Now this Church whose Authority is thus warranted did precede the Scriptures Answ VVarranted as a Church but not as so not as Infallible Did precede the Scriptures which for a great part were written upon emergent occasions as you say Answ As for the writing of Scriptures and the emergent occasions you may be further referred to Doctor Field whom you made use of against me VVhatsoever the occasion was the end was to make what was written a sufficient rule of Faith and Manners And as for your objection and inference upon it VVe answer with a distinction the Scripture is considerable two wayes either in respect to the substance of Doctrine or secondarily in respect to the manner of delivery by writing in the first regard the Scripture did precede the Church for the Church was begotten by it which to them was as certain as the written to us And if you could make your Traditions of proper name equally certain you would say somewhat And as for Scripture that which is written doth binde though it doth not properly binde as written You say that the Church was called the Pillar and ground of Truth before it was written and so you say might be said of other passages We answer As that place expressed it doth not appear to us that it was so called since first we find it in termes in Saint Pauls Epistle But if so or other like were used before the answer before will serve By all which places the authority of the Church is commended to us and we are referred to the Church as a Guide in all our Doubts So you say and so we say Where is the Adversary How doth this conclude contradictorily We confesse that the Authority of the Church is commended to us in Scripture but not directly in every place you name nor in any is it so commended to us as to ground our Faith We confesse we are referred to the Ministers for Direction and to the Governours for jurisdiction yet are not the Latter Masters of our Faith unto whom we should be bound in a blind Obedience of Universal assent or practice We take their advice but we are not by them determined in our Faith We may beleeve what they say but not because they say it As it is drawn from Scripture so it draweth us If they make it probable that it is so because they say it yet it hath not the certainty of Faith without the Word of God I should be very tender of incompliance with the judgement of the whole Church but yet I must have for my warrant of Faith the Lord saith And although there be no appeal from a General Council yet have they no infallible judgement You proceed even the Scripture it self is beleeved upon the Tradition and authority of the Church Answer This was touched before in the case of Saint Austin and it is in effect answered as before by Doctor Field Indeed we take the Canonical Books by Tradition from the Church but we doe not take them to be Canonical by Tradition from the Church The authority of the Church moves me as to the Negative not to dissent but assent is settled to them as such in the way of Faith because they are such In thy Light we shall see Light as the Psalmist speaks Psalm 36.9 or by thy Light so by Scripture we see Scripture Next follows the Expostulation which may be put into this discourse Either we ground our beleef upon the Church or upon our own fancy and private Interpretation of Scripture c. Answer We deny your disjunction VVe ground our beleef neither upon the authority of the Church as you nor upon fancy neither as some have done who have been better friends to Romans then they have been to us as Doctour Whitaker told Campian upon a like imputation of Anabaptastical fancies VVe differ from you because we allow to private Christians a judgement of discretion or discerning which sure is commended in that precept Prove all things in the first Epistle to the Thessalonians 5.21 We differ from those who magnifie their private interpretations because we say they should be directed by their Ministers and ordered by the Bishops the Pastours of the Church chiefly when they are assembled in a General Council wherein is the highest power of Oyer and Terminer as we may speak of hearing and ending differences in the Church yet we cannot say that we are absolutely bound unto their Canons we having the judgement of private discretion and they not the judgement of Infallibility And if you cannot say that they are absolutely without any doubt but true without doubt we can say that we should not absolutely beleeve them Every possible defect of certainty in the Object excludes Faith the certainty whereof admits no falsity Therefore can we not presently yeeld or assent to whatsoever is by them defined
their Souls upon that their conceived certainty Thus you see when the Scripture in four several places delivereth these four words This is my Body Men will hold it to be clear that so clear words be not clear and will venture their Salvation upon this their Imagination In this and many other points we say the Scripture is clear for us The Lutherans say it is clear for them The Calvinists say it is clear for them We have conferred Place with Place we have looked in the Originals and after all this the Scripture doth not decide this Controversie but when all is done we are as far from Agreeing and being brought to the undoubted knowledge of the most important truth as we were at the beginning Another very strong Argument to declare that the Scripture cannot be the Judge of all Controversies in points of Faith necessary to Salvation is this That there be many points the believing of which is necessary to Salvation which points are no where set down clearly in Scripture For first you make it the chief point of all points to believe the Scripture to be the Judge of all Controversies and by it self sufficient to end them all I ask where is this point of points which you make the ground of your belief where is it I say set down in Scriptures and that so clearly that no prudent doubt can be made but that such words clearly say what you say Doth not Saint Athanasius in his Creed put down as an undoubted Article of Catholick Faith which Faith as he saith without a Man hold it entirely and inviolably without all doubt he shall perish eternally doth he not put down there that we must believe That God the Father is not begotten that God the Son is not made but begotten by his Father only that the holy Ghost is neither made nor begotten but doth proceed and that both from the Father and the Son And that he who will be saved must believe thus And yet how far are these most hard points from being clearly deliver'd in the Scripture So also that God the Son is Consubstantial to his Father and of the same Substance is a certain Article of Faith and yet no where clearly delivered in Scripture but was believed by All upon the sole Authority of the Church which consequently was believed Infallible I have already shewed that the necessary cōmandment of keeping the Sunday in place of the Saturday is no where in Scripture but rather the contrary How then can I believe this for the Scripture or for any clear place of it there being no such place to be found I have also shewed that it is no where in Scripture set down at all much lesse set down clearly and manifestly which Books of Scripture be Canonical which not How then by the Testimony of Scripture which giveth no Testimony at all of this point can I believe such books undoubtedly to be such not to be Canonical Baptisme of Children to be Necessary to their salvation is a prime point of Belief and yet you cannot believe this prime point upon any clear place of Scripture for there is no such place but you must all say with the great Saint Austin That though nothing for certain can be alledged out of Canonical Scriptures in this point yet in this point the truth of Scriptures and consequently a sufficient ground for Faith is kept by us when we do that which seemed good to the Catholick Church which Church the Authority of the same Scriptures doth commend Contra Crescon l 1.13 And this following the Tradition of the Church he calleth The most true and inviolable Rule of Truth He holdeth therefore Tradition of the Church so Infallible that it may be a ground for Faith He was taught so by Saint Paul 2 Thes 2. Hold the Traditions which you have received either by word of Mouth or by Epistle Upon which place Saint Chrysostome having taught that the Apostles delivered many things by word of Mouth not set down any where in writing he saith that these unwritten Traditions are worthy of the same belief which those deserve which are written It is a Tradition of the Catholick Church Seek no further So he But you say I must seek further to find this in Scripture yet Saint Chrysostome tells me that being a Tradition of the Church it is Gods Word and upon this account as worthy to be believed as if it were his written Word for it is the being his Word and not the being of his written Word which maketh it Infallibly true Well then It having been made clear by all these reasons and authorities that the Scriptures cannot be intended by Christ for the Judge of all our Controversies in Faith and that their reading cannot be that Holy way a way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it Let us see where this way is to be found and who is to be judge to define all Controversies with Infallible authority so that all are bound to submit their Interiour judgement in which all faith consists to this Authority it being high Treason against Christ not to submit to an Authority instituted by him purposely to oblige all to this submission I say this Judge is the Catholique Church This I will prove first and this being proved I will shew briefly that no Church but the Roman can prudently be held to be this Catholique Church In proof of the Catholique Church her being Judge of all Controversies I alledge first those words Matth. 16. v. 18. I say unto thee that is to St. Peter by name Thou art Peter that is Thou art a Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it that is those Gates of Hell out of which so many damnable Errours shall issue shall never prevail by inducing any damnable Error into that Church which I will build upon thee O Peter and thy Successours which I add because this Church was not to be built upon the Person of St. Peter onely for then this fair building had fallen to the ground when St. Peter had died They who do say that the Church may fall into damnable Errors do say that the Church may fall to the ground and that the Gates of Hell may prevail against it for what greater fall can it have then by damnable Errors to make its Members all fall into Hell and in what manner can the Gates of Hell more prevail against it And yet we are sure by Gods Word that shall never happen Wherefore in this Church we imbrace most groundedly all things proposed by it to be believed Here you see our Judge Christs Church hath Gods warrant to warrant Her from bringing in any damnable Error by her Judgement All may therefore securely obey But that none can securely disobey her Judgement Christ also doth warrant us in the next Chapter but one for Matth. 18. v. 17. he saith Tell the Church and if he
will not hear the Church Let him be unto thee as a Heathen and Publican Here you see all Causes of greater Importance are to be brought to this Judge for if even private complaints are to be brought into her Tribunal and if for disobedience after her Judgement given of them a man be to be hold for a Publican or Heathen much more are enormiously hurtful crimes such as are the crimes of Heresie to be carried to her Tribunal and those who in so much more Importing matters disobey are also much more to be held for Publicans and Heathens And that no man may think that after this his condemnation he may stand well in his Interiour persisting still in the same judgement and doing so stand right in the sight of God it followeth Amen I say unto you Prelates of my Church VVhatsoever ye shall bind upon Earth shall also be bound in Heaven You see I have found a Judge so securely to be followed in his Judgement and so unsafely to be disobeyed that his Sentence given upon Earth is sure to be ratified in Heaven This also could not be true if this Judge were fallible in such prime causes as most concern the Church and all such causes are those which may bring in damnable Errors Conformably to this doctrine of the Church her being our Judge Saint Austin de Civit. l. 20.9 expounds to our purpose those words of the Apocalypse or Revelation cap. 20. ver 4. I saw Seats and they sate upon them and Judgement was given them It is not to be expounded of the last Judgement but of the Seats of Prelates and the Prelates themselves by which the Church is now governed are to be understood All this which I have said out of the New Testament you will the lesse wonder at if you Note that even in the Old Law it is said The lips of the Priest shall keep knowledge and they shall require the Law from his Mouth because he is the Angel of the Lord God of Hosts Mal 2. Note here a grosse corruption of the English Bible which readeth these words The Priests lips should keep knowledge and they should seek the Law at his mouth whereas the Originals speak clearly in the future Tense Here by the way I must tell you that though the Scripture were to be Judge yet your most corruptd English Scriptures cannot be allowed for Judge Whence it followeth that those who do understand onely English can judge of nothing by their Scripture And so they must trust their Ministers to the full as much even in this highest point as we do our Priests in any point But let us proceed You see first that I have found a way so direct that fools cannot erre by it for any man may ask the Priests of the Church what is the known Doctrine of the Church and then let him rest securely when he knoweth that Secondly you see I have found such a Judge as all true believers had for all their Controversies for more then two thousand years together before Moses did write the first Books of Scripture all which time you must needs make the Tradition of the Church the infallible Rule of Faith for here was no written Word of God upon which their Faith could be built and yet Saint Paul 2 Cor. 4. speaking of those who lived in those Ages before all Scripture saith They had the same Spirit of Faith And the reason is clear for the Word of God is the same whether it be revealed by the Pen or by the Tongue written or not written And what saith St. Irenaus l. 3. c. 4. if the Apostles had not left us the Scriptures Must we not have followed that order of Tradition which they delivered to those to whose Charges they left the Churches to be governed To this order of Tradition by the unwritten word many of those barbarous Nations do assent who have believed in Christ without any writing or Inke having Salvation written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and keeping diligently the ancient Traditions So St. Irenaeus who you see holdeth manifestly unwritten Traditions of the Church to be a sufficient Ground of Faith It is most manifestly true which he saith that upon this ground the Faith of whole Nations have relyed This ground therefore is infallible all Nations Faith relying on this even two Thousand years and more before the first Scriptures were written and the Faith of many other Nations who since their writing have believed and do believe the true Faith For how many of them never did see the Scriptures at all or never did see them in a Language which they could understand Neither did the Apostles or their Successors take any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such languages as they could all or the greater part understand They thought the Tradition of the Church a sufficient Rule of Faith for all which they could not do if this Rule were fallible We must therefore confesse it to be Infallible Thirdly I have not onely found a Judge so clearly pointing out the way that fools cannot erre by it but such a Judge as no exception can be taken against his sufficiency for no other Judge was in the Church for some Thousands of years amongst the most true Beleevers and afterwards amongst whole Nations Fourthly I have found a Judge to whom Christ hath given a certain Promise to teach no damnable error by which Doctrine the Gates of Hell should prevail against her Fiftly I have found a Judge whom All men are obliged I say obliged by Interiour Assent in point of Faith to obey under pain of being held here for Heathens or Publicans and looked upon as such by the Judgement of Heaven binding what the Church bindeth Sixtly I have found a living Judge who can be informed of all Controversies arising from time to time and who can hear Me and You and be heard by Me and You that neither I nor You can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we doubt we can propose our doubt and she will tell us clearly her meaning whereas the Bible can neither hear a Thousand new Controversies which arise daily nor be heard clearly to give any certain Sentence in them but onely say the same still which she said even before the Controversies began and about which Sentence of hers all the Controversie did arise neither doth the Bible give any such Judgement as will suffice to hold these and these men who teach these and these errors for Heathens and Publicans which the Church doth so clearly and so manifestly that they themselves cannot deny themselves to be condemned by the Church together with their Doctrine but all they can do is to raile against their Judge which the damned shall do against Christ their Judge I see no exception there can be made against this Judge Onely you will tell me that Infallibility is wholly necessary for the Judge of Faith which I
of singularity because it doth not follow the Catholique If then you will do prudently as you speak go with Saint Austin no further then he would have you follow him namely in the way of Scripture which he understood well and at the latter time of his life but whether he understood it as much as any the Church had which you say may be yet under debate with all respect to Saint Austin since it appears not that he had any skill in Hebrew and if I remember well confesseth that he learned Greek but late So then if in some cases your own Men confesse that we must have recourse to the Original Languages how could he understand them so well And now come we to your grand assumption that what hath been said of the Catholick Church that it is by Christ appointed to be the Judge of all Controversies and that the definition of this Judge is Infallible and consequently a sufficient ground of Faith all the Doctrine must be applyed to the Roman Church and cannot be applyed to the Protestant Church And now then you are pleased at the latter end to discover your selfe that you did intend at first the Roman Church but dealt more cunningly then the rest of the Pontificians who do include in the nature of the one and true Church subjection to the Bishop of Rome Methinks this plot of yours might be somewhat resembled by him who had that Phantasie that whatsoever Ship came to Port was his so now every Church must be yours or none as if the Roman Sea were the Ocean or you would have all the Honours that might be conferred by God upon that Church he would please to own signally and to make his conceiving that this Church can be none but your own And thus would you have led me on with some ingenuity to be liberal in my respects and devoirs to the Catholick Church that so you might without contradiction sweep all for the Roman Catholick But prove that those priviledges you speak of belong to the Roman Church and cannot be applyed to the Protestant Church You prove it thus First This Protestant Church doth not so much as lay claim to those priviledges and so by her own Doctrine she cannot be Judge or Infallible nor any other Church but the Roman upon the same reason because they professe themselves by evident and Infallible Scriptures their own Fallibility as you prove the consequence to be to the end of your Page of the 27. Number and therefore the Roman Church is the true Church unlesse Christ hath no true Chrch nor hath had these many ages This is your argument which proceeds by way of a negative induction not the Protestant Church nor this other Church nor that nor any other Church doth claim the priviledge of being Infallible Judge onely the Roman therefore otherwise Christ hath had no true Church these many Ages Sir Which will you give us leave to do to smile or weep that men not to be contemned for their Learning and Reading should be abused and should endevour to abuse others by such ratiosinations which are made useful onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We and all other Churches do of their own accord yeild unto you that they are Fallible We save you the labour of the eviction True Churches they say they are and say they are not Infallible and they say also that you only do lay claim to this Infallibility but what then therefore you have Infallibility what because you only claim it Suppose that the Roman Church doth lay claim to Utopia or to the Terra incognita no other Church doth not the Protestant not any other therefore it is due to them Yes but where is this Utopia where is this Terra incognita what be the Priviledges and Dominions thereof they are yet to seek for them who lay claim to them First then make it out that there is such an Infallibility to be had before you challenge it and do not prove the beeing of it by your challenging it lest your Roman Eagle be said to catch at flies but prove solidly the beeing of it by the grounds thereof and then secondly prove a just claim for suppose that others did not lay claim to it what right can yet you have by a claim Is this also given primo occupanti If you have no other tenure for your Infallibility you have none and it doth bespeak fallibility to say the title is good If I might be so bold and surely I may in the cause of the truth of God it is more likely to fall out thus no Church but the Roman doth pretend to Infalliblity therefore is it highly presumptuous and is onely in this not an Usurper because there is no such thing as belonging to any Church We have no such tradition nor the Churches of God and yet also is it an insolent Usurpation of that Prerogative which belongs onely to God and Scripture This is enough to undo your argumentation and you but whereas you say that all other Churches of other Religions do say indeed that they themselves are the onely true Churches it is not true they doe not speak of themselves exclusively as you do Particular true Churches they may be under the truly Catholick Church and therefore they can contesserate one with another with respective acknowledgements but you are they who exclude all from the condition of being true Churches which will not reconcile themselves to you by absolute subjection And since you say that all other Churches but yours disclaim Infallibility you see that we alone do not stand aloof from obedience to your Roman Tyranny So you are not Catholicks in dominion neither Yet you would seem to have some reason for your discourse that one Church must be Infallible otherwise Christ hath not nor hath had any true Church these many ages This is inconsequential unlesse there be some Church Infallible Christ hath no true Church It is a false proposition as we have answered you from the first to the last that a true Church is Infallible and it is now all the question Though it be not true in every point yet may it be a true Church Every error doth not destroy the beeing of the Church and you have very great cause not to presse this lest it be retorted against your Church as it might be to be Even with you that Church which holds it selfe Infallible and yet hath erred is Fallible and therefore by your Doctrine no true Church the Church of Rome holdeth it self Infallible and yet hath erred then this is no true Church And might not the assumption here be proved by your own Doctrine for if the Tradition of the Church be the Rule of Faith then you have erred in rejecting the Millenary opinion which was a tradition of the Church So then your designe you speak of in the 28. Number of not expressing the Roman Church in your dispute you see is destroyed for what you say of
as they most prudently believed what the Prophets taught them by word of mouth to be infallibly true because spoken by those whom God gave Commission to say what they said so they most prudently believed what the same men did deliver to them by their writings as Gods Word because written by those whom God gave Commission unto to write what they writ The credit and belief given as well to their writings as to their words unwritten was at last found prudently accepted upon the Motives upon which they accepted their Commissions as given by God for their infallible instruction All were moved prudently to accept of this their Commission because God did own it for his by several Miracles or other most apparent proofs testifying to the people the infallible Commission which those Prophets and Scripture writers had to teach them by words or writing or both Their wits then were induced to accept of this their Commission as truly given by God moved thereunto by such prudent Motives that it had been a high act of imprudence which in point of salvation is damnable to have disbelieved them for example they did either see such apparent Miracles or such notorious force of Doctrine working visibly so strange changes of manners and in so many before so vitious to a life very Vertuous and sometimes vertuous in a stupidious degree The writers of the New Testament had these divine attentions yet more abundantly though the others cannot be denied sufficient whence as from their only words not yet written many thousands received their faith because they first prudently were induced by these Motives to acknowledge them to have had a true Commission from God to say to us in his Name all that they said and then because they acknowledged this Commission to be from God they believed infallibly all what they said because they said it with Commission from God to say it So by their words now written by them in the Scriptures which they delivered unto them many thousands received their Faith because first prudently they were induced by these Motives to acknowledge these writers to have had a true Commission from God to write what they did write in his Name and then because they acknowledged this Commission to have been from God they did believe infallibly all that they did write because they did write it with Commission from God Thus you see upon what assurance those who first received the Scriptures did receive them for Gods VVord The Apostles gave their writings to the prime Prelates and Pastors of the Church assuring them in Gods Name that these writings were Gods VVord These Pastors and Prelates preached to the people that they should admit of these writings as Gods true VVord VVhat they preached was believed with an infallible assent upon the authoritie of the prime Pastours of the Church They were prudently induced to give an infallible assent to their authority by these strong Motives by which they had demonstrated themselves to have Commission from God to teach his Doctrine both by word and writing Thus was the first Age assured of Gods Word by the Oral Tradition of the first Pastors of the Church assuring them also that the Spirit of truth would abide with the Church teaching her all truth and that they were to hear the Church under pain of being accounted Publicans and Heathens and that she should be unto them as the piller and ground of truth for as they did write so doubtless they did teach these things These first Christians then received this doctrine with an assent as infallible as they received the Scriptures And so all then believed and all taught their Successors to believe the Church to have such infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost that in all doubts arising about faith they were to submit unto her as to one having Commission from God to declare all such matters The second Age by so universal so full so manifest a tradition was most prudently induced to acknowledge the church to have such a Commission from God and so they believe the Church for this divine authority given her Now there is nothing which can make any thing more prudently credible then universal tradition A miracle to confirm that there is such a City as London though in it self it were a surer motive would not work so undoubted a beliefe in the minds of those who never did see London as universal tradition worketh And yet this tradition is but one of the motives which induceth us to acknowledge the Church to have received Commission to declare with infallible authority the Verities received from the Apostles and consequently her declarations to be admitted with infallible assent for her authority But I must needs note that this motive of tradition alone did serve to make all for the first 2000 yeares and more give an infallible assent to their Church see Ch. 4. Number 11. yet here I intreat you to mark how they resolved their faith then Why did they believe then that the Soul was immortal Because God said so by his Church having Commission to teach us all we are to believe Why believed they that this Church had Commission to teach them as Authorized with due infallibilitie Because the same Church told them so Why did they believe this Because they would do so And they would do so because it had been meere folly not to accept of this Churches Commission to teach them infallibly all truths which Commission they knew by tradition to have been ever accepted as divine by all good people so we c. I will adde one Motive more 33. Miracles are called a Testimony greater then Iohn the Baptist Christ himself said If you will not believe me believe my Works By this great testimony of Miracles God hath often owned the doctrine of the Romane Church even as it is in this our dayes For he knoweth but litle of the world who doth not know the vast extent of those Provinces and Kingdomes which in this last Age the Preachers of the Roman Faith have added to their Faith by this Testimony of God by Signes and Wonders and divers Miracles Hebrewes 2.4 And here most Visibly Our Lord ever working withall and confirming their words by Signes and Miracles It appeareth also by the History of Bede and the plain confession of your learned Magdeburgians that the faith brought into our England by St. Austin was the same faith which you abolished by your Reformation as you call it And yet again it appeareth by Bede and St. Gregory his Epistles that wonderful were the miracles which St. Austin wrought in Confirmation of the faith preached in so much that St. Gregory thought it necessary to admonish him of conteining himself in humility lest the working of so many miracles should puff him up These Preachers preached the Doctrine of our Church God confirmed their Doctrine by miracles Therefore the doctrine of our Church was confirmed by miracles And it may for this motive
private Priests are far more likely to teach them Gods law by teaching them what the Universal Church holds to be Gods Law then by teaching them what they themselves conceive to be Gods Law as you would have them do 11 Now to prove further the Church to be a competent judge guiding us no lesse securely then those many millions were guided who had an infallible faith and the same Spirit of faith with us as S. Paul said though their faith were grounded on the authority of no Scripture but wholy and intirely on the tradition of their infallible Church I urged that in those two thousand years and more before Moses did write the very first book of Scripture the true faith of all the true believers of those Ages depended in its infallibility upon their Churches being infallible in proposing the traditions she had received shall we allow infallibility to that Church and deny it to Christs Church shall we be worse provided for in so main a point in the law of grace then they were in the law of Nature what text of Scripture is there for this Then it was not written Hear the Church then it was not written that the gates of Hell should not prevail against her Nor that she was the Pillar and ground of truth that the spirit of truth abided with her then teaching her then all truth All this and far more then this as I shall shew in this chapter is written now of Christs Church And yet you will say we are not sufficiently certified of her infalliblity I pray tell me how then were they certified and infallibly certified of the infallibility of their Church How did Men then infallibly know that they were bound under pain of damnation to believe the tradition of that Church shew me then what you demanded of me lastly to shew that is shew the ground they had then to hold their Church infallible and the infallibility of the knowledge of it and infallibly what was the subject of this infallibility If you cannot shew that they could not then do it better then we now then refuse not to stand up to our Creed Your answer to so convincing an argument is most unsatisfactory and it would make a man think your intent were to plead against your self You say this was answered before it was written what was that answer It was that the word in substance of it was before the Church which was begotten by it to this you add that when there is now as much need and as great certainty of tradition as formerly then I may urge this argument so when you speak of the word of God which you say was before all writing and which begot the Church you must speak of the unwritten word This unwritten word is that very thing which we call tradition and indeed when you speak of such a word as must be sufficient for an exterior and an infallible direction for so many millions as were by it onely to be directed in the way of Salvation before any Scripture was written you must of necessity put this word outwardly expressed somewhere and expressed in such a manner as may be able to produce this effect of guiding whole millions in the way of Salvation by an infallible beliefe of what God hath said by that word Now I pray find me out any word of God any where existent before Scripture but in the Orall Tradition of the Church of those times You say Gods word revealed is the ground of all faith They then had faith therefore they then had Gods word revealed and revealed in a sufficient manner to ground divine faith But they only had Gods word revealed by Tradition Therefore Gods word revealed by tradition is a sufficient ground to ground divine faith By this unwritten word that is by this Tradition of the Church she from a small Church consisting of those very few to whom God by his own mouth did first of all speak or by his Angels grew to be a multitude of true believers And so the Church was begotten by Tradition upon which only this multitude that is the Church did judge most prudently that to be the true word of God which was by so powerfull a motive perswaded to be so That hence you may see that this very motive alone is a very sufficient inducement to receive the Verities recommended by it and to receive them with an infallible assent For this was the only inducement which we know the true believers to have had for those 2000. years and more which were before Moses did write the first book of Scripture And those Scriptures which were written from the law of Moses to the time of Christ were only kept among the Iewes and this time lasted two thousand yeares more during which long time many among the Gentiles as apeareth by Job and his friends had true divine faith with out any knowledg of the Scripture wholy unknown unto them this faith of theirs could have no other ground but Gods unwritten Word delivered to them by Tradition Therefore Gods unwritten Word delivered by Tradition only is a sufficient ground for infallible faith 12 And whereas you add That when there is as much need and as great certainty of Traditions as formerly then I may urge this argument I answer that the need or necessity of Traditions which you conceive to have been greater then now doth not make the Traditions more credible Those who have read very much in very many credible books of France have no need at all of any unwritten and orall tradition to make them believe there is such a countrey as France yet these men whom we will suppose to live at Dover doe as certainly know by unwritten or Orall Tradition of men daily coming from France bringing French passengers French commodities and as to those who never read one word concerning France not being able to read at all And those who are not able to read at all are not lesse assured by unwritten tradition that there is such a Kingdome as France because there be many books written of France and the French warrs with the English So though we have now the Scriptures written concerning most points of faith we are not lesse helped by tradition because there be such books extant And good Sir consider how great our necessities are of both these helps for even now when we have Scriptures and Traditions we have ever had with them a perpetuall succession of horrible divisions opening still wider and wider All commonly caused by the misinterpretation of the Scripture to which inconvenience they were not subject before all Scripture was written And therefore in this respect there is now after the writing of the Scripture a greater necessity then ever of Tradition both to assure us which books be the word of God which not which be the true which the false Copies of these books Where they be secure where corrupted And lastly which is the true sense of
of it Wherefore seeing that a motive power is no motive power any further then it can or ought to be able to motive the Emperiall power which cannot move further then it reigneth nor ought not to move further cannot consequently command any further then his territory at the uttermost The power of the cheife Pastor of the Universal Church is coextended to the Universal Church All Bishops of the Universal being to be moved must be moved by such a power as this is If Emperours called councils it was not by an Ecclesiastical calling such an one as the Pope called them by at the very selfe same time but the Emperours calling was only political proceeding from a temporal power subserving to the Ecclesiastical and not able to force them by censure in case of refusing to come as the Ecclesiastical power could which power implored the Emperiall assistance to concurre with her only for the more effectual excution Perhaps somtimes Emperours might venture to call dependently of the ratification of the supreme Pastor which they presumed would be assuredly obtained in so just necessities as there seemed to presse for a speedy meeting If Emperors were present in Councels it was only by their presence and good countenance to honor encourage and further the proceedings of the Councel and to passe their Vote in points of beliefe You add something else now but it comes again presently Fifthly you object How shall we know that every one of the Councel hath a free election to it and a free decisive Vote in it I answer the freedome of every mans calling is made evidently credible by the publick sūmons sent through the whole Christian world obeyed by the same without any pertinatious opposition and the answerable publick apperance from all parts of the world every one exhibiting the publickely authenticated testimony of his election and confirmation If any man be excluded he may without he will renounce his right be heard in the Councel which being a publick hearing the matter cannot but be known Many yet never were nor can be thus injured without making their injury notorious by publik protestations and such lik remedies alwayes used against unjust exclusion or hinderance of liberty in Voting If the Councel be known notoriously to use such procedings we are not to acknowledg it for a lawfull Councel Again as private mens proceedings are not to be judgeed bad unless they can be proved to be so much lesse ought the proceedings of the Church representative to be judged bad without sufficient proof of the contrary And when such evident and notorious ill proceedings are not apparent nothing can be solidly objected against the lawfulness of the Councel And therefore it being to be admitted as a lawfull Councel it belongeth to the Holy Ghost to provide that their difinitions be not prejudiciall to the Church put under his protection and direction You only look what the inward nature of humane malice might act but you should also look to the extrinsical over-ruling providence promised by God against humane malice and weakness This is that which maketh all these factions and bandings and domineering self interest never to be effectually destructive of that secure direction promised by God to his Church Though hell gates should be set wide open they should not prevaile against her Sixthly you ask how shall ignorant people be divinely perswaded that the Councel is general I answer the publick Summons to the Councel sent through the Christian world The Publick appearance of Prelats made upon these summons from all parts of the world Their publick sitting publick subscribing publick divulging their decrees and definitions acknowledged truly to be theirs by all present denied by no man to be theirs with the least shew of probability no more then such an Act is denied to be the Act of such a Parliament All these motives I say maketh it evidently credible to the ignorant and to the learned that this is the true definition of the Church Now this being evidently credible to be her definition and I believing by divine faith all her definitions to be true I also believe this definition amongst the rest to be true It is a great signe you are ill furnished with strong arguments when you would perswade us that in things so easy to be known there be such insuperable difficulties The Councel of Trents definitions concerning faith were never opposed by France though some things ordained for practice seemed lesse sutable to the particular state of that Kingdome yet this difficulty was at last removed Seventhly you ask how many Bishops in the Trent Councel were furnished with a title to over-power the rest for the Popes ends I pray Sir tell me how many But tell me by credible witnesses such as are their own subscriptions who can assure me of this truth And when you have told me this give me leave to aske what one of them was as much as suspected to be of a faith different from the rest If they differed not in faith from the rest how then can the Pope be suspected to have acted against faith by making such Bishops Again doth the making of such Bishops make the holy Ghost unable to order things so in the councel that nothing shall happen destructive of the secure direction undertaken to be afforded for ever by him Saul shall sooner turn a Prophet and Caiphas shall prophecie not knowing what he doth before the spirit of truth sent to teach the Church all truth shall faile in his duty Eightly you ask how the Church was provided for when for so many yeares there was no Pope defining with a Councel This time you mean was the first three hundred years after Christ when for persecution no Council could be gathered All this time the known doctrine of the Apostles remained so fresh and so notorious by the Tradition of the Church diffused and there remained also so Universal a respect and obedience to the cheife Bishop of the Church notoriously known to be the upholder of true doctrine that the Church wanted not meanes to decide Controversies as farre as the necessity of those times required whence the Quartodecimani although they opposed nothing set down clearly in Scripture were Iudged Heretikes for opposing the doctrine of the first Church made evidently known by fresh Tradition Now as the Church could want Councils for so many years so it could want Councils for the short space of schism For the necessity of new declarations it not so frequent at least in any high degree of necessity calling for instant remedy and a reme-of this nature only Scripture alone you say will remedy this necessity We besides scripture have alwayes at hand the many definitions of former Councils and the known Traditions of the Church which alone served Gods Church in those two thousand yeares before Scripture and for two thousand yeares more served the faithful amongst the Gentiles who had not the Scriptures which remained almost solely and alone
to you is not bound to so much Fourthly whereas you say They so will make him wise unto salvation and to continue still assured of the doctrine of the Church and never to contradict that Do not you see that you add to Paul in the Predicate for S. Paul saies they are able to make him wise unto salvation and you say so they are able to make him wise to salvation and to continue still assured of the Doctrine of the Church and not to contradict the Church who is it that wrests Scripture now Do not you draw it to your own use no you will say it is all one to make us wise unto salvation and to make us continue still assured of the Doctrine of the Church and not to contradict the Church Is it then all who have not contradicted the Church are saved none that have contradicted the Church are saved The former you will not say the later you cannot prove Pope Vigilius contradicted the Church in the 5. Gen. Council about the three Chapters was he damned Fifthly you say the Scriptures so understood would make him wise unto salvation and to continue in the doctrine of the Church How do you understand it copulatively or disjunctively Copulatively that the Scriptures and the orall traditions would make him wise unto salvation and to continue in the doctrine of the Church or disjunctively that the Scriptures would make him wise unto salvation and the traditions to continue in the doctrine of the Church If disjunctively then we may be wise unto salvation and yet not continue in the doctrine of the Church to wit by the Scriptures If we cannot have salvation without continuing in the Church then prove your Church to be as infalible to us as the Doctors of the Church were to Timothy until that time you will be thought to beg the question So to end this answer we note here that you take special care of the Church It seems by your stickling about the Church that what S. Austin said in his de Civitate Dei concerning Rome-Heathen is also true by you of Rome-Christian Et major cura unius Romae quam totius Coeli And there is more care had of one Rome than all Heaven You go on Thirdly you say You confess that when we are by the Church assured that the Scripture is the Word of God we may ground our faith in it for those things which are plainly delivered You say yes but I also say that all things necessary to salvation are not plainly delivered in Scripture So then it seems you come downe from your former universality that whatsoever we do believe we must believe upon the proposals of the Church as the formal cause and motive thereof and why then do you not allow the people the use of the Bible as in order to those things which are plainly delivered So that by this concession you open the way to contradict your own practice But you would shut it again by saying that all things necessary to salvation are not plainly delivered in it Be sure you take heed of this that you do not grant this for why then should all fly to the Church for infalible directions in way of supply well Are they not delivered or not plainly which speak your mind If not delivered then surely not plainly for of that which is not there are no affections as the Rule is but they may be delivered and yet not plainly Come out of the clouds and do not make a noise but lighten us If not delivered think upon the Argument you know well If many things not necessary are plainly delivered in Scripture then much rather all things necessary If delivered and not plainly then plainly not delivered for if they be delivered they are delivered for our use as a Rule of faith and action and how are they a Rule if they be not sufficiently plain for then we must have another Rule for the understanding of this Rule And also think upon the former Argument which proceeds upon your own distinction that the Scriptures were able to make Timothy wise unto salvation but not every one If Timothy then much more others because more is required as you say to a Minister in point of belief than to others But you would prove what you say S. Peter saith that many to their perdition did misunderstand some hard places of S. Paul so that mis-interpretation of hard places may be the cause of perdition Ans First you will excuse us if we note that the danger they were in was not by misunderstanding but by wresting of those places You know the Greek is as before was said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the Syriack renders it perverting depraving and so also your Translation of Rhemes depraving This is not so much an intellectual error as a moral fault and the danger is by the later Secondly Here 's but some things hard to be understood in S. Paul's Epistles not all not many and from hence you cannot argue that all things therefore in S. Paul's Epistles and much lesse in the whole Scripture are hard to be understood If you syllogize so you proceed a particulari a dicto secundum quid Thirdly the perverting and depraving doth more immediately depend upon their being unstable than ignorant Therefore cannot you impute that to simple ignorance which at least partly belongs to another cause Fourthly how prove you that those things which were hard to be understood were of those things which are necessary to salvation If you say so it lies upon you to prove it if they were not such then this text is not pertinent Fifthly it is to their own destruction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So then it seems hereby they had the liberty to read those Epistles and why should you therefore hinder the people from the use of Scripture since they run the danger of their own destruction by wresting them And peruse your own Estius upon the place who doth ingenuously note that it is not said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as referring to the Epistle as some copies he said would have it but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 referring to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which respects the time of Christs coming although afterwards Estius would extend them to the point of justification by faith Fourthly you object heresie and lewd life to some in whom you say we invested infallibility If I should grant all what prove you from hence but that there be other ways to heresie and bad life besides giving all scope to interpret the Scriptures as we judge fit c. unto but to prevent Ans But do you remember what occasion I had to object this to you by way of recrimination you charged us by the judgement of your learned Divines that the free use of the Scripture would be it upon which the peoples manners would grow worse and worse And to this I said how comes it then to passe that some in whom you vested
know that de officio this is the way of constituting and so of distinguishing the Church and de facto this is the way that S. Austin and also some of their owne Divines do prove the Church by yea this is the way which my Adversaries must take and do And thirdly neither do we say that we believe the Scripture to be the word of God by the testimony of the Spirit but to those who do professe the beliefe of the Scripture to be the word of God And therefore are we even with them in this kinde for as they deale with Heathens as to the proofe of Scripture by the Church so do we also as the Fathers were wont by the Church universal And I can use the authority of the Church as an inducement unto the Heathen although the Pontificians cannot use the authority of the Chnrch to me as the determinative of faith So then if they can prove the authority of the Church infallibly to be infallible without dependence upon the Scripture they shall indeed speak to the purpose Otherwise they are shut up in a circle out of which they can never move their foot The thirty second number hath in it much and little longae Num. 32. Ambages sed summa sequor fastigia rerum The intendment of it is to fix the wheel by assuring the Church to be infallible without running to the Scripture In the beginning of it it would prove their faith good because they believed those who delivered it had Commission from God But this satisfieth not because the question rebounds upon them why they believed that those who delivered it had Commission from God If they say they had assurance thereof by the Spirit then they come to our kind of assurance Therefore they determine this belief upon two motives one comming from the Doctrine in order to God change of life the other from God in order to the Doctrine in miracles and there he amplifies in two leaves which might have been dispatched in three words Indeed the first he says not much of for it is no concluding argument For first it doth not distinguish Doctrines for thus the Jew the Arrian the Socinian the Sectary might prove his Doctrine infallible Secondly the good life if it were a result of Doctrine yet not from the points of difference but the generall fundamentalls of Christian faith wherein the Controversies lie not Yea thirdly if this new life did proceed by way of emanation or absolute connexion from the points of difference we might join issue with them and have the better Yea fourthly Judas had a right Commission and yet no good life Yea fifthly the manners are rather to be proved good by the practicall Doctrine than speculative Doctrine if any Doctrine ultimately be such proved good by manners Therefore good life is no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Divine Doctrine nor yet of a Divine Commission Yea sixthly Dato non concesso that we mighr know the Church and Doctrine of it to be infallible by good life yet this is not conformable to their postulate that God should teach us all verity by the mouth of the Church as Stapleton speaks Then as to the other motive of faith in the true Church namely miracles we can say severall things first in thesi miracles are no certain distinctive of a Divine Commission because the man of sin may deceive by lying wonders as St. Paul speaks 2 Thes 2.9 And also Moses Deut. 13.1 2. Then this is no infallible motive for the believing of a Commission from God because we may be deceived in it And although upon supposition of a true miracle we might conclude a Commission from God yet this is not the way infallible because we may be deceived in the truth of the miracle whether it be such or not since the miracle cannot fidem facere de se as the testimony of the Spirit can Secondly the gift of miracles was a gift common to those who were not all Prophets as to penning of the Scripture and also not common for ought we know to some who did as St. Mark and S. Luke therefore this is not sufficient to resolve our faith in their Commission because not given Omni nor soli for whatsoever doth distinguish must have it self per modum differentiae Thirdly therefore since we must have faith to believe the miracles to be true we ask how we come to this faith if by the operation of the Spirit then faith ultimately is fixed upon our foundation namely the testimony of the Spirit by which we may as well be assured that the Scripture is the true word of God as that miracles are true Fourthly the gift of miracles was temporary and accomodated for that season of the Church And therefore cannot we prove by miracles new Doctrines as Invocation of Saints worshipping of Images Communion in one kinde Transubstantiation Supremacy of the Roman Bishop therefore if miracles did infallibly ascertain the divine Commission of the Prophets and Apostles to speak and write yet are not we satisfied by them in the question of new Doctrines which the Scripture gives us no account of but therefore he comes to Oral tradition For as for his reasoning in form thus in hypothesi The Preachers preached the Doctrine of our Church God confirmed their Doctrine by miracles therefore the Doctrine of our Church was confirmed by miracles it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For first not to carp at the form of his syllogism we say to the proposition that if they preached the Doctrine of the Roman Church as differently from the whole Church they preached what they ought not to preach and so the minor proposition is false If they did preach the same doctrine which the whole Church received in Scripture from the Apostles then we grant the minor and the conclusion too as much as doctrine can be confirmed by miracles but we distinguish of the time when the miracles were wrought namely in the time of the Apostles and by them For as for miracles done by S. Austin to confirm the same faith which we abolished in our reformation we say that Bede and Gregory and Brierly whom he quotes for testimony hereof are not to us surely of sufficient authority in their own cause Nay secondly they had best not add the testimony of the learned Magdeburgians lest they be ashamed to slight them in other matters but also chiefly upon this consideration because if the points of difference were confirmed by many miracles which he refers us to Brierly in his Index for then by the Argument before those points of difference were new for as miracles have themselves to faith so new miracles to new faith And if it was a new faith then it was not received by oral tradition from the Apostles successively and then they are undone Therefore let them speak no more to us of the miracles of S. Austin the Monk who shewed nothing so much wonderful as his pride in
or in an higher kind nothing is more credible for this testimony of the Spirit which is not yet disproved makes a thing not only prudently credible but necessarily and in the way of Divine faith And that which is prudently credible doth not include this but this eminently includes that which is prudentiall credibility Yet he goes on Yet here I intreat you to mark how they resolv'd their faith then c. namely in the space of the 200 years and more wherein they had nothing but tradition to make them give an infallible assent to their Church Ans This I have marked and not precariously But what shall I see in it that will give a sober man any satisfaction For first what if they did believe the soul to be immortall because God said it by the Church and the Church because it said that it had Commission from God is authorized with infallibility and did also believe this because the Church said so and why so because they would do so what of all this therefore we are not infallibly assured that the Scripture is the word of God by the testimony of the Spirit If they did believe indeed in way of a Divine faith then the Spirit of God did assure them by tradition For otherwise they forsake the antient Theological account of faith and they must either say that faith is not an habit infused or that it may be an habit infused without the Spirit of God but if they believed improperly or in the way of humane faith as we doe believe there are seven hills at Rome without universall tradition or a miracle then this is not to the purpose for the discourse is peccant in the ignorance of the Elench we can say as much without contradiction to our cause Secondly they cannot surely expect that we should gratifie them so much as to say there is as much reason to believe tradition now as then because now they themselves will say that we have the benefit of what assurance the general Councils can make And also 3. we must here note out of their own words for the use of our cause that for the space of 200 years and more they had nothing but tradition to make them give an infallible assent to their Church So then for the same space they had not the coroboration of general Councils and therefore these do not make the reason of belief simply as they would have it because the Church was so long without them 4. Though the universal comprehends particulars yet a particular doth not comprehend an universal therefore whatsoever assent is due to tradition universal is not due to tradition particular of Rome This is their trick to build all upon the common ground of the whole Church and then to inclose the universal Church within the walls of Rome This we must enter our plea against upon all occasions 5. We see they are come off unto some latitude in their conception of faith because the last resolution in this quest of faith they make to be thus and they would do so because they would do so and again because it had been more folly not to accept of this Church's Commission to teach them infallibly all truths So that now the acquiscence of the soul in the deep mistery of faith must be terminated and determined upon rhe variable point and principle of prudence and that which must eternaly setle our mind in the first and last ground of infallibility must be this we do so because we will do so or because it were folly not to believe So then since currente rota the discourse is come to this let us have our liberty to believe as we do believe because we see it to be folly for ought can be seen by them to accept the Church's Commission to teach infallibly all truths Sixthly if they say all truths then they seem to be fallen from their former Concession and also Stapleton's that some truths may be believed without necessity of the Church Seventhly as for the immortality of the soul which they insist in to have been believed because God said it by the Church we say easily that this might with lesse difficulty be received from the Church because it is surely probable and some will say demonstrable by reason and therefore is not only asserted by Plato who might have it from the Jewes by redundance in Aegypt whither he and Pythagoras and some others travelled for wisdom as Justin Martyr witnesseth but also in effect as I think by Aristotle And also here certainly they must be put to distinguish betwixt the Church of Rome and the whole Church or else his words are not true or else Pope John the 22. did not belong to the Church for he did not commend to others the Faith of the Immortality of the Soul And yet he goes on Which Commission to teach them infallibly all truth they knew by tradition to have been ever accepted as Divine by all good people This reason if I may say so is surely full of it self but not solid for it doth in effect run round again and the Faith of the Church is proved by the Church for they make all good people to be convertible with the Church and therefore they make the holy Catholick Church to be the visible But how then is the Church Regula regulata the Rule ruled as hath been confessed before Secondly must we content our selves with this in the grand concernment of faith because the Church did accept this Commission as Divine which we know by Tradition but how shall we know this Tradition to be of the Church before we know the Church Are they advised of this then must we come to be assured of the Doctrine before we be assured of the Church And this Doctrine we must be assured of independently of the Church because we cannot know the Church but by the Doctrine and by the Doctrine of the Scripture too as S. Austin discourseth against the Donatists Thirdly if all good people know by tradition this Commission to be divine then my Adversary needed not to have pinched the last resolution of faith so as to have said they believed because they would do so or because it had been meer folly not to accept this commission for though universal Tradition cannot transcend its sphere unto a causality of proper faith divine yet hath it more reason in it than to make a generall beliefe arbitrary or to preserve the act of it from folly in the negative A Divine assurance will not be compared with a negative prudence but universal tradition doth surpass it We had best then compound the difference betwixt himself by a kind of division thus negative prudence was suitable to his former proof Aqua ascendit quantum descendit but Divine assurance which I suppose he urgeth by tradition is necessary for the question For the certainty of faith is such as cui non potest subesse falsum in which there can be no
is under a command and express precept St. Matth. 22.37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind And this cannot be moulded into the notion of a counsel for thus Christ answers to the question in the ver before what is the great Commandement of the Law And also in the ver after he saies this is the first and great Commandement Now to do thus is most perfect charity and therefore what we can do is comprehended under all that is commanded yea if the law requires more then we can do according to ordinary measure of grace then we cannot do more than the law requires now this the law requires and not only semper but ad semper as to the internal duty of love And who is there in all the world that loves the Lord alwaies with all his heart with all his soul with all his mind And therfore Gods law is not to be cut short that it may be made even with our ability present Neither doth the text named by him out of St. Iohn prove obedience to the law possible to us in the way we may keep Gods commandements in generale though not all as we ought as we are said to keep the way though sometimes we transgresse We may keep the commandements as a man keeps a Castle against the enemies he keeps it till he be beat out of it he keeps it against forsaking it but he doth not keep it so as not to be overcome he keeps them as to the purpose of his mind he doth not keep them absolutly as to all acts negative in commands negative and positive acts in affirmative commands He keeps them not as keeping contradicts all offending for in many things we offend all as St. Iames speaks And therefore can we not fulfil the law because the same Apostle saies 2 ch 10. He that keeps the whole law and offend in one shall be guilty of all And therefore this argument is peccant in the ignorance of the Elench for we can say that we may keep the commandements yet not fulfil them according to the power we had in Adam and according to the measure of the obligation which is not adequated to our strength now but to Gods law as an express of his holiness and as commensurable to mans ability in state of Original righteousness Nay it is observable also that the word in St. Iames which is rendered shall offend is as diminutive a word in the kind as I think any other for it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lest Hindan and the rest of that sort should think that venial sinnes do but cast a little dust upon a Christians life no defilement And therefore to conclude upon the whole matter if the Scripture needs an infallible interpreter to distinguish betwixt counsels and precepts both given in the mood of command this makes no difficulty until counsels find better proof If they will take our counsel let them keep their counsel to themselves This we may say as litle to as he saies in it of new discourse N. 56. He speaks here again of the losse of Divine books This we have spoken to before more then once upon his provocation And this pincheth them for why may not they then faile of some traditions and how then can we depend upon the Church when the Church should have kept them since the Church as the learned of them say is to depend upon them But own thing here he would urge that according to us we must pick out points necessary one out of one Book another out of another Ans Surely this is no strong plea for first ought not the word of God dwel plentifully in us as the Apostle speaks 2. Cannot any own easily discern historical books from doctrinal 3. Can they not take special notice of those heads of doctrine or practice unto which salvation is expressely annexed 4. This argument concludes more heavily against them for depending upon the Church Who can compare all their books from age to age for their doctrin who can compare who hath been most learned and most faithful to derive a successional summe of things to be believed and to be done nay who in the compare of Churches can preferre the best but by the best doctrin and yet according to them we must take the doctrine from the Churches who can measure the vast latitude of the universal Church by those rules of Vincentius is it not easier to receive necessaries from Scripture then to boult them out of so many volumes of ages And how should we be sure of keeping received traditions when some traditions which were received are not yet kept by the Roman Church 5. In Scripture though we pick for necessaries yet we have nothing false but we have false traditions have we not yea this is a false tradition that traditions are equal to Scripture Yea 6. If any books be lost they were lost before Christs time and yet those which remained in St. Pauls time were able to make Timothie wise unto salvation And towards the reading of the Apocryphal books that so we may reade over the whole Canon it is a supposition in stead of proofe The reading of them in the Church doth not inferre their canonicalness of proper name and this is made good to them they know lately by the Reverend and Learned Dr. Cosins in a book on purpose And as for accurate noting all places and conferring with other places What then multa non experimur quia difficilia multa difficilia quia non experimur Is not this possible is not Salvation worth the paines must every one amongst them know the distinct exact sense of all their definitions no they will say but the people should seek the law at the Priests mouths Well then so is it not necessary to Salvation that the people with us should be able exactly to conferre all places and as for those places which contain necessaries there is not such obscurity And yet surely some hardness according to their principles doth belong to faith for how otherwise should it be supernatural and meritorious therefore if their way of beliefe be so easie it doth not beare proportion to the qualities of faith assigned by Mr. Knott And as for Translations to agree with the Originals this we have canvased before And our people can do it as well as theirs better too because they have liberty of translations And to the truth of originals we must come in several causes as Bellarmin before Omne reducitur ad principiun is good here too And then the consectary of these difficulties he would make to be negative to us namely that God did not intend this book to be our only guide And he would perswade us thus Gods wisedome directs him to the best meanes to compass his intention And then he would frame a minor with advantage thus even our ordinary wisedome if we had an
had been convenient that there had been no Scripture upon this consideration And how should they prove the Authority of the Church without Scripture Well but take his words in their ordinary sense and what kinde of argument will this be Even now when we have Scripture and Traditions therefore now Traditions are now as necessary or more then when there was no Scripture Nay they will seem to be less necessary when notwithstanding them we have more divisions How then shall these divisions be remedied It may be by more traditions What New traditions oppositum in apposito But in the next words he speaks out All divisions commonly caused by misinterpretation of the Scriptures to which inconvenience they were not subject before all Scripture was written And therefore in this respect there is now after the writing of the Scriptures a greater necessity then ever of Traditions Ans So then he hath now commented upon the former words and his sense is plain that had we not had Scripture we should have had less need of Traditions First we had thought the Learned men of their Church had devised Traditions not because we had Scripture but because Scripture was wanting in the matter of necessary doctrine And so he himself telles us presently after that since part of the Canon is lost we must say there is use of Traditions And yet now we have more need of Traditions because Scripture is written But it may be he will say there is more need of Traditions to clear the interpretations of Scripture Yea but then he should mean by Traditions Traditive interpretations of Scripture as they are called But are not these lost too For who is there can give us any account of them And as for other Traditions we are never a whit the better he hath told us before since notwithstanding we have them we have a perpetuall succession of horrible divisions opening still wider wider Let them remember that of Nâ—lus to accuse Scripture is to accuse God 2. Are the divisions necessary in points necessary If he means so it is flatly denied If in other points it is not to the question principal 3. A quatenus ad omne valet consequentia if we be bound to Tradition as such we are bound to all and yet all Traditions they have not kept 4. Traditions doe not lessen divisions about interpretation of Scripture for one division is whether Traditions have any ground in Scripture And he may know that he hath named Texts to this purpose and because there are differences about Traditions therefore by his argument we should not be ruled by them as indeed they do not order themselves by them They keep Tradition in the controversie for the use of the Church not in practice as he said Antiquitatem semper crepant novi indies vivunt and we must let goe the Scripture in controversie and practice for the use of Tradition and the Church they and their Fathers have troubled the waters of Scripture for the cheif Fisher Let them let their Traditions alone and they will see their discourse is a non causa Then he repeats importunately the uses of Traditions but not my refutation And he speaks of Traditions of such matter as we have in Scripture which is beside the mark we are about Traditions in their sense of that matter which is not in Scripture equally to be believed to Scripture which should prove the insufficiency of Scripture and the necessity of them This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore much he saies to this purpose is like the drift of snow which makes an heap but will not bear one up from sinking in it Yet I must note his wit in that he saies that God must purposely by a miracle have infringed the course of nature if the former Traditions of the Church should grow then to lose their sufficiency in order to the same effect when they were strengthened by so great an Authority as that of the sacred writers was How little in this is there of a sober soul As if the matter of Tradition was written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to confirm the authority of delivering it by orall Tradition Doth it not appear in Eccles History that the matter of the New Testament was written that it might be more certain and firm in the minds of men It seems then that the looser way by Tradition was not so sure and standing litera scripta manet Secondly If there be so great an Authority of the sacred writers surely we may make more use of what they wrote to confirm Traditions Adeone pudorem cum pudicitia perdiderunt as he said that the Authority of the sacred writers should be imployed as it were onely to serve Tradition Thirdly The Authority of the sacred Writers did rather confirm the truth of them than the use for why were they written if Traditions were necessary after they were written as such Therefore fourthly He concludes but sufficiency of them in order to the effect but this is not effectual to his purpose If he did conclude necessity of them after the writing this would be somewhat but then there would be more in the conclusion than is in the premises and yet surely all were nothing to the state of the question because we make no question of such Traditions Again he pleadeth losse of the Canon upon which he thinks Tradition should revive Ans That we have spoken of sufficiently before that the supposal doth not inferre insufficiency of the Canon and therefore doth not inferre necessity of Traditional matter beside what is written And also is there yet notwithstanding the losse of some part of Scripture enough remaining to confirm Traditions yes they will say Then God it seems hath taken more care for Traditions than Salvation there is enough for Traditions yet in Scripture not for Salvation Well but again there is enough in Scripture to confirm all Traditions is there not If there be then there is enough for Salvation or else there was not enough in Traditions Because they will say Scripture hath confirmed all Traditions to the Jew namely And then if there was enough to the Jew for Salvation in the Old Testament which was adaequate to Tradition then much more have we enough for Salvation by the New Testament and therefore is there no need of any Tradition beside the Canon Then he returns to an enarration of the use of Traditions even after writing which is of no use to them but to us because here he produceth several Texts for Traditions in the same notion as 2. Thes 2. Gal. 1.8 Tim. 2.2 2. and herein he prevaricates in his own cause For if these Texts be meant of such Traditions which were afterwards written in the matter of them they are so understood as we would have them to be understood and they are not pertinent to the question about Traditions beside Scripture in the matter of them Secondly Whereas he speaks that these
Scripture than for any thing else But then I deny the minor the Tradition of the Church testifying her own infallibility is not worthy of an infallible assent It may be worthy of the highest degree of moral assurance yet not of an iâ—fal ible assent No Authority can write as to Conscience what a king writes as to civil credit teste me ipso but that which is immediatly divine And why then do the Pontificians prove the Authority of the Church by Scripture The Church without Scripture is not yet Christned if we take Scripture for the substance of the matter it will be but the highest form of Heathens And therefore the Scripture is to be believed antecedently to the Church And how little his examples have proved the minor we have seen even as much as he had cause to conclude against me out of my own words thus Tradition in matters of Faith unwritten is of equal Authority to Scripture The Traditions we stand upon be matters of Faith truly once delivered by our Saviour or his Apostles though the Revelation were not written by them therefore this is of equal Authority to Scripture even according to your own words Surely it is easier to answer this than to forbear the Person The proposition was not my words I hope categorically spoken but as being the state of the question if those Traditions be in the matter beside Scripture And now he takes this to be my affirmation simply And then we deny his minor too because that which they stand upon is not matter of Faith as being not revealed by our Saviour or his Apostles or truly delivered by either for they are uncertain by which And if they will urge that Text St. Iohn the 16.22 as Bellarmin does they may think that many things might be written afterwards or were not points of Faith And this Text hereticks have urged and therefore by my Adversaries Logique he should not And did St. Austin think that any could soberly say that the points of difference were of that number Or did any of the Saints in Heaven see what they were in speculo Trinitatis and did send down word thereof As for his defence of the exception which he took against the Scriptures being a sufficient rule to us N. 15. because neither the Apostles nor their Successours took any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such Languages as all or the greater part of them could understand my answer is yet good the care was taken in that the new Testament was written in Greek which was a common language then And this I gave an Argument of in that the Grecian is contradistinguished to the Jew in the New Testament And therefore the Greek must be the greatest and most famous part and therefore the language common this proof he is not pleased to meddle with at all Another proof that that was the common Language was that of Tully for Archias the Poet Graeca per totum orbem leguntur This he takes notice of And he saies and so is Virgil in Latin But this doth not contradict me yea he gives me a corroboration of my Argument for whom did Virgil imitate Theocritus in his Eglogues Hesiod in his Georgicks Homer in his Aeneids Yea Horace had read the Greeks it seems by his Grecisms Yea Terence was so conversant in Menander that he was called Menander dimidiatus But he saies This is to be understood thus that the most learned sort of men every where read Greek and Virgil. Ans This supposed is not exclusive to the Greeks being the common Language as to others since he will think the Latin was common to the people then and yet the most learned read Virgil. And did not all those Nations whom St. Paul wrote his Epistles to understand Greek Did he write onely to the most learned In what Language was the Epistle to the Romans and the Epistle to the Hebrews for the Roman Church confesseth that this Epistle also was written by St. Paul written were they not both written in Greek yea the Jews that used the Septuagint Translation were many So Philo the Jew and Marcus Antonius the Roman wrote in Greek And therefore that which was spoken by the Oratour was spoken without any such Hyperbole He saies yet further either this must be spoken in way of a notable amplification or Scripture must be denied because even between the two Cities of Antioch and Constantinople the Greek tongue was not the vulgar Language of Pontus Cappadocia Asia minor Phrygia Pamphilia all which Nations the Scripture Act. 2. testifieth to have had different Languages Ans Though the Scripture speaks of them as distinguished in speech yet not in Language but dialect and so it is expressed ver 6.8 And so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be restrained as to those who had several dialects therefore whereas he saies the Greek tongue was not the vulgar Language of Pontus c. If he means that the common Dialect of the Greek was not used by them all this is not much to be stood upon because it is not reasonable to say that those who spake several Dialects did not understand the common Greek for take them all Attique Jonique Dorique Aeolique and Baeotique they differ ordinarily but in terminations or pronunciation from the common Within that compass is also Galatia which St. Jerom testifieth to have had a language somwhat like those of Trevers An. It is as farre from Thebes to Athens as from Athens to Thebes is it not Then that of Trevers must be as neer that of greek as that of the Galatians which was greek in St. Pauls time If afterwards the language altered or was corrupted this doth not contradict us because we must distinguish times And therefore yet it remains good that the greek was understood of the greater part of the world and therefore the Apostles took care to have the knowledge of the Gospel to be commonly understood And if they had not God did miraculously by the gift of the Holy Ghost sub forma visibili in the second of the Acts in the gift of tongues And this concludes against their Latin service as also St. Paul discourseth and concludeth against it in the first Ep. Cor. 14. And though we cannot tell the time when the Scripture can first be shewed to have been thus communicated to the people of severall languages what is this to the purpose If it had not been done afterwards it is enough to us that the Apostles did write in the most common language for those times And if it had not been done it should have been done But that it was done appears seasonably in the great Bible Neither can they tell us or will when the vulgar Latin began first to be Authentique whether under Sixtus Quintus or Clement the eighth In the beginning he tells me that I moved a question how the people should clearly know the true Tradition from the false Ans I did
move this question but somwhat else was annexed which he saies nothing to Well to this he now answers first they could know this better then know true Scripture from false for they could not do that but by knowing first the true Tradition recommending the true Scripture from the false tradition recommending the false Ans First this hath been often denied him that the ultimate resolution of faith in the true Scripture is not Tradition this may lead us to the gate of the Temple but this does not open the doore of faith 2. That Tradition which makes an inducement is of the universall not Roman Church 3. How shall we know true tradition but by the true Church How shall we know the true Church but by Scripture therefore we must know the true tradition from the false by the Scripture which contradicts his method And he saies they could do this as well or better than their fore-Fathers for many hundred of years yea for two thousand yea for twice two thousand years together Answ First they see then their error in defining Faith so strictly to be an infallible assent since they here stand upon a comparative certainty if so which amounts not to the consistence of faith Secondly He supposeth that which is not to be supposed that their fore-fathers were determined in their faith of the word of God by Tradition Even now or a litle before he said Tradition was estalished to the Jew by Scripture Now Tradition is that which must discerne and consequently stablish Scripture 3. It appears that as Scripture is more perfect then Tradition because otherwise God had gone the worst way namely from that which is more perfect to that which is less perfect namely from Tradition to the writing of his word but that which is less pefect cannot establish that which is more perfect Therfore neither then nor now could Scripture receive the blessing of establishment from that which is inferiour 4. In the times of the law there was no other Church to vie with the Jewes about Traditions And therefore they might be more certain of true Traditions But now there are several national Churches which may pretend superiority of tradition or tradition of superiority as the Roman doth and therefore it is not so sure a way to fixe our last foot upon Tradition 5. Universal Tradition of all times and places which only weighs in this cause is not in other things for them nor in that canon supernumerary of theirs and therefore let them either retract the argument or take it Yet he will be confident of two Traditions whereof the efficacie is commended with perpetuall profession and answerable practice dayly occurring Baptism of Infants and praier for the faithfull eparted The first of these we have abundantly examined before and he does here most insist upon the latter assigning also his reason of more practice of this last Because they baptize Infants but once but they pray â—ften for the same man who is dead And then being more practised it is more confirmed which Cressie also urgeth Ans As for Paedobaptism here he doth not prove it to be a Tradition unless this be a true proposition that whatsoever is commended with perpetual profession and answerable practice daly accurring is only delivered by Tradition Tradition is such but all that is such is not Tradition Therefore that proposition denied And for what he saies towards both before that the Apostles did only by unwritten Tradition clearly and undeniably teach the baptizing of Children and praier for the faithfull departed it is not clear that it is undeniable and therefore clearely and undeniably it is denied Baptism of Infants hath not yet lost sufficient ground in Scripture to keep it from a necessity of being named Tradition as he should have shewed And as to the other praier for the dead we answer first it seemes then it is but a Tradition and they will pradon us if we speak thus diminutively of it And whether this will please all the Roman Doctors that it should have no footing in Scripture let it be none of our care 2. For the object of persons whom they praied for question would be made what morally they were who were to be praied for but this he tells us he saies they were the faithfull Well but all the faithfull I suppose It may be they will say yes If not let them give us a reason of their distinction according to Tradition If so then praier for the dead doth not inferr purgatory which they intend in the praier for the dead And the reason of the consequence is proved because praier was made for all the faithfull and some of them went up to Heaven per saltum as they will also confess namely Apostles and Martyrs and yet these were also prayed for in order to a joyful resurection And indeed the antient praiers for the dead did respect their bodies in the grave to be raised up at the resurrection not their soules to be raised out of Purgatory after a plenary satisfaction And what meanes St. Austin in Tract In Iohannem 49. unus quisque cum causa sua dormiet cum causâ suâ resurget And some of their own have lately in this differed from them Neither had the Roman Church with their infallibility perswaded the Greek Church hereof in Nilus's time who hath a learned discourse against it And thirdly as for Inscriptions upon the Graves whereby he would make a prescription for the tradition we say two things First that we must have them to be shewed to be so antient as to have been universally used in the Primitive times and then secondly that they were used upon the Roman account And as for Aerius who onely as he saies denied praying for the dead to be accounted for this his opinion an Heretick by St. Austin and St. Epiphanius they must somewhat excuse us for this absolutely is not right for their turn if true First not right for their use because he might deny prayers and oblations for the dead in the former respect namely for a joyful resurrection and this comes not up to the state of the point wherein we differ namely whether prayer for the dead was a tradition in their sense as inferring Purgatory But 2. Neither is it absolutely true that Aerius was accounted an Heretique for this opinion exclusively to other opinions of his as my Adversaries words import However he meant them I will pinch it Either he means for this opinion only or for this opinion with other opinions If for this opinion concurrently with others this derogates from the common sense of his words and from his use too because if he was accounted an heretique for severall opinions it may be some of them were not heretical opinions and then it cannot be said that he was for every of them accounted an heretick unless we could make some to be heresies which are not heresies and this would be a contradiction Well then I
thus whatsoever requires infallible assent must have an infallible Authority Diverss points not proposed clearly in Scripture the Church requires an infallible assent to therefore she must have infallible Authority we answer granting the major which yet they have no reason to urge unless they had more firm Principles that the assumption may be true de facto but not de jure And then again It is yet denied that ever the Church Universal did ever exact this As to the right hereof she must prove her infallibility and Authority too hereunto as to the fact it must be proved by our Adversaries Therefore since I am respondent I may conclude thus Things necessary to Salvation are plainly set down in Scripture those points are not plainly set down in Scripture saies he therefore I conclude they are not necessary Here he makes a return to my Argument against him N. 18. that if that must be Judge which can hear him and me and be heard by him and me then Tradition is thus excluded from being the Judge here he distinguisheth It is the Church who proposeth these Traditions and not the Traditions which are our judge Ans This is easily taken away for according to their Principles Tradition must be Judge of the Church If their former Argument be good that we must not ultimately be assured in point of Faith by the Scripture because we do not know what is Scripture but by the Church so also we cannot ultimately be assured in point of Faith by the Church because we cannot tell which is the Church but by Tradition And if it be Judge of the Scripture in the Canon of it as they must say then surely it may be Judge of the Church because as before by the Fathers opinion the Church must be proved by Scripture Again by Tradition was the Faith of Christian Doctrine bred in the minds of the Barbarian Nations as we have it said before by my Adversary therefore Tradition must be the infallible Judge or else they had not the same Faith which the Roman contends for by an infallible Judge or if they had then there are more infallible Judges or Faith may be had without an infallible Judge or Traditions and the Church are all one and then the distinction is none And yet also this answer of his I did provide for before in these words but you say the Church doth determine hereby by Tradition then may it determin by Scripture more securely and more universally And to this he replies nothing but holds the conclusion From hence he skips to answer me about that which I opposed to his Judge exclusively to any other I urged that of St. Paul that an heretick is condemned by himself namely as I discoursed by the Law of God within him by vertue of Conscience which can and does and should apply the truths of God to the censure and condemnation of errour in us c. To this he saies he is not an heretick but an infidel who is told by his own Conscience that he gain-saith the Scripture Ans First Then the Scriptures are so clearly the Word of God that an Infidel may be told thereof by his own Conscience If not so then his words have no sense If so then may we see the Scripture to be the Word of God by its own light as the Heathens did the Law of nature and then he contradicts his own former discourse Secondly Saint Paul speaks not of an Infidel but in terminis terminantibus of an heretick who supposeth the Scriptures to be the Word of God though by consequence he denies it in Hypothesie as to the point of heresie So that the Text cannot be so put off And though every Christian is readier to die than to disbelieve any one saying of the Scripture yet the heretick who supposeth the Scripture in Thesi and in general may yet deny it in the application against him and for this he is to be rejected because he goeth against his own Principles of Scripture which do condemn his heresie in his own conscience though outwardly he opposeth And he helps his cause no better with another shift When St. Paul wrote those words the whole Canon of the Scripture was not written and until the whole Canon was written your own Doctors grant the Church to have been the infallible judge of controversies Ans If he takes whole so as to be understood in order to the Canon I grant that the whole Canon was not then written but if he takes it in opposition to a sufficient direction by what was then written I deny it there was then as much written as was simply necessary to Salvation for how could St. Paul otherwise say to Tim. That the Scriptures then were able to make him wise unto Salvation thus I distinguish of the former part but then 2. the latter I doe deny that our awn Doctours do say that the Church was the infallible Judge of controversies until the whole Canon of the Scriptures was written for then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Pharises had been infallible No the word of God was infallible when it was not written but not the Church Therefore he mistakes the purport of finishing the Canon which was not ever held by us to cease the infallibility of the Church but to accomplish the matter of Scripture and so it doth exclude verbum non Scriptum Infallibility of the Church was never held but the Canon of Scripture was allwaies sufficient providing allwaies that the Church in this consideration be meant contradistinctly to the writers of Scripture Neither needs he to wonder at my saying that the Church then was not sufficiently formed thereunto namely to a definition of what was to be held therein To this he saies the Church was formed before St Pauls conversion and before his conversion the number of Desciples was multiplied Ans The terme Church is very ambiguous He takes it here of the Church vertual or of the Church representative or of the Church diffusive The Church vertual which the Iesuits say is the Pope was not yet formed The Church Representative as they say in a Council confirmed by the Pope was not yet formed There was no council General till after three hundred yeares nor Pope so soon in their sense A Church diffusive there was but this serves not his turn for we must speake of such a Church formed so that the heretique should be condemned for contradicting the definition of the Church Now the definition of the Church according to my Adversary is by the Church Representative and this was not then formed Then again to take his own words either the Church was not then formed most compleatly with all things necessary to infallible direction to the true faith or it was Let them now say which they will Then no necessity of Pope and Council yea no necessity of Pope or Council If it was not compleatly formed then my former answer obtains And besides if
doth now infallibly teach the Church in all definitions And then a second that it is his duty to do so Let them learn their duty not to tell God his duty Did the Holy Ghost do his duty when Cajaphas and the Assembly condemned Christ And why did not the Holy Ghost make eight hundred Bishops in Ariminum as infallible without a Pope as the forty Bishops in the Trent Council whereof some might be made Bishops not because they did not differ from the rest but that they might not differ in the Roman Faith though against the Catholique faith And if they put the difference in this compare upon a Pope in Trent Council none in Ariminum though that answer will not serve as before since Praelats have a also a power of calling Councils as my Adversary before in some cases why should not the Holy Ghost rather assist eight hundred Praelats without a Pope then forty with As to the eighth answer he confesseth the substance of it that for the first three hundred yeares there was no General Council and tells us the cause for persecution no Council could be gathered But this satisfieth not God is not wanting in necessaries nor abundant in superfluities as one of theirs saies If councils had been allwaies necessary he could have provided against persecutions or for a Council notwithstanding And why not in time of persecutions as well as in the times of the Apostles Were not those times of persecution Neither is that a sufficient reason because all this time the former doctrine of the Apostles remained so fresh and so notoriously the Tradition of the Church diffused and there remained also so universal a respect and obedience to the Chief Bishop of the Church Ans these three causes will not make one sound one For by the first he means the known doctrine of the Apostles as delivered in writing or not if so then why may not we by the same cause sufficiently be directed by the word written And as to the second if he joyns Tradition of the Church as notoriously diffused as a social mean of the direction it may be denied upon this account only here for that other Traditions of Heretiques were then mingled in the Church with pretense of coming from the Apostles And therefore the Traditions of the Church was notoriously not distinguished And as to the third it is notoriously false that then there was a chief Bishop in their sense in those times For how then could equal 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be appointed in the Nicene Council if the Bishop of Rome had been Chief before how could St. Cyprian have said that all the Apostles were equall pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis How could the African Council have then cut off appeals to Rome Then had there been no need of the feigning of a Canon to this purpose in the Nicene Council How could St. Ierom have said that the Bishops succeeded the Apostles in communi in his Epistle to Evagrious Neither was there such obedience then performed by them to the Praelats in all places as may appear by the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians where he speaks of great Schisms And also by Ignatius his earnest exhortations of submission to them Whence the Quartodecim ani although they opposed nothing clearely set down in Scripture were judged Heretikes for opposing the doctrin of the first Church made evidently known by fresh Tradition Ans First if they will believe their Alphonsus de castro they were not sententially declared Heretikes because they were excommunicated Indeed Victor would have excommunicated then fecisset nisi Irenaeus illum ob hoc redarguisset he would have done it if Irenaeus had not chid him for this By the way then was this also obedience to the chief Bishop to chide him So Alphons in his 12. b. de haer In verbo pascha Yea 2. They may know that Eusebius doth give an account of the Asian observation to come from as good Tradition as the the other And surely the Asian Church was therfore the western and therefore was it not the doctrin of the first Church Yea also by the way how was Tradition of the Church notoriously diffused when there was Tradition against Tradition And herein also did the Brittish Churches which Tertullian speakes of differ from the western following the Eastern Church 3. Heresie is some times largely taken and doth then respect Schism of proper name and so in a large sense it might by some be called Heresie although the matter of difference was no doctrin of faith Ex verbis male prolatis oritur Haeresis So Hereticks in a propriety of speech they could not be 14. Alphonsus doth distinguish here upon in the same place and saies they were accounted Hereticks not because they did simply observe it then sed quia ita esse necessario faciendum credebant And this then alters the case And he explains himself further because this did include a necessity of observeing Judaical ceremonies even after Christ's his coming And so then this was contrary to the word written And then this was not a Tradition 5. They here shew the pride of Rome to offer to cut off from her comunion all those who were of the other perswasion who were not few as may be seen in Eusebius's 5. B. 24.5 Ch. for a thing simply of free observation wherein difference makes no variance a◠Irenaeus sent word to their Victor ch 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the difference of a fast and so of a feast doth commend the agreement of faith He goes on now as the Church could want Councils for so many years so it could want Councils for the short space of schism Right But then so can it want Councils still and therefore God hath not bound us over to the Church for our absolute direction upon necessity of Salvation Councils are necessary to infallible direction so my Adversaries hold The Church for three hundred years and in time of a Schism can want Councils as my Adversary here so then there is no absolute necessity of their infallibility And indeed there was much need of Councils in that space of the first three hundred years in regard of Divisions as since and then if God provided sufficiently for his Church without them he can and will do so still And this is confirmed by my Adversary by these words of his for the neccessity of new declarations is not so frequent at least in any high degree of necessity calling for instant remedy and remedy of this nature only And he may goe on and say it not upon my opinion but for himself and ex animo that Scripture alone will remedy this necessity He needed not to put in you say And as to that which he saies that there remained many definitions oft former councils and Traditions of the Church which alone served Gods church these we have spoken to sufficiently before Either the Definitions were concluded out of principles
Apostolical or that those who bring new doctrine are as well inspired as the Apostles the Roman Church shall now be Apostolical And if there were now as great a necessity of the infallible direction of the Church as there was in the times of the Apostles by them then why should not the Apostolical office have continued in the number of twelve and so all the Apostles should have had successours which they must not say who maintain the Monarchy of the Church Neither doth that instance of Iohn the Baptist teaching the Meâ—â—as which also the Scripture teacheth come up to the case First Because Iohn the Baptist was but a singular person but the Church now is considered under a promise of continual succession and as is pretended by them with the perpetual gift of infallibility therefore though there was Scripture then besides Iohns Testimony yet what need of it now if there be a constant infallibility in the Church Secondly There is a difference in the case ex parte Scripturae in regard oâ— Scripture which was not then compleated therefore there might be more necessity of St. Iohns Testimony and of the voice from heaven and of the Testimony of miracles But now the Canon is consigned what need of the infallible direction of the Church and if there be an infallible direction standing in the Church what need of a standing rule it may serve for a commonitorium as the Cardinal So the Scripture shall give us but an application of the Churches doctrine The Scripture that must not be a suâ—ficient rule the Church that is the direct and plain way that fools cannot erre They may erre by the Scripture they cannot erre by the Church Therefore in effect not only will there be no need of Scripture but there would be need of none But more closely That which is not of use without the Church and that which the Church may be without is not necessary The Scripture is of no use without the Church and the Church may be without Scripture Therefore according to their premises the Scripture should not be necessary and how farre is it from blasphemy to say that the Scripture is not necessary If to accuse Scripture be to accuse God as Nilus before Then to say there was no need of Scripture is to accuse God of inspiring so many Pen-men for no necessary purpose For although after all means of Faith still millions do not believe as he saies yet since according to their doctrine no sense of Scripture in point of Faith is to be believed but as taken from the Church since the Word not written takes up so much of necessary matter since the pâ—tfecter and the wiser are to be sublimated by Traditions since the common people are not to be conversant in Scripture in a knowen tongue what necessary purpose doth the Scripture serve to It is true superflua non nocent as the rule is and Utile per inutile non vitiatur true But yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to their principles the Scripture will be superfluous For that which is more than is necessary is not necessary that which is not necessary what is it Therefore if any of their men should be found to be traditores Bibliorum as some were of old the Roman Donatists would never make a separation from them He goes on The Church is not more Enthusiastical now than she was for four thousand years before she had all the promises which Christ made her of an assistance which should be at least as speacill and full as she ever had before Ans This is positively no answer but somewhat by compare we press it The Church in that time did not de communi challenge immediate inspiration therefore that Church which doth so now is more Enthusiastical Secondly It is a begging of the question since there is not now that need after the Canon is compleated Thirdly We return them their argument what assistance the Church had formerly it hath now the Church formerly had not de communi in fallible assistance therefore not now For the Prophets and the Apostles and the writers of the Scripture are not rationally to be included in the common account of the Church in our case Let them chuse which they will stand to If they put them into the promiscuous account of the Church let them now shew us such a Church If they account them extraordinary let them shew ordinarily such And he confounds himself in what follows Before she delivered only what she had received by tradition and by Scripture She hath received Scripture by Tradition too hath she not Why doth he then divide Scripture from Tradition in the way of its coming to us For the chief reckoning they make to us of Scripture is upon the credit of Tradition But he means Tradition ex parte materiae it may be because they think Tradition conteins other matter than Scripture equally to be believed But this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In Interpreting which according to the sense truly intended by the Holy Ghost the same Holy Ghost doth assist her so that here is no new Revelation claimed to be made to her but an infallible assistance to propose faithfully what was formerly revealed Ans He cannot well clear himself of Enthusiasm upon the account of Tradition Any thing beside the word written equally to be believed is matter of Enthusiasm But they pretend somewhat beside the word written equally to be believed therefore are they in danger of Enthusiasm And I do not see well how they can answer it But now he endeavours to purge himself of this accusation in point of interpretation of Scripture They say they do not interpret Scripture by revelation but by infallible assistance Well But how shall we blind souls be assured infallibly of this infallible assistance We may not examine it by the judgment of private discretion may we If we may then this is gained Must we believe it Yes Why Because God hath it to be his will that we should absolutely believe the Church Shew me where By the Church that is in question By the Scriptures what Texts Those produced But the question is whether they are rightly interpreted according to the true sense What will they say now Nothing but the Church hath infallible assistance And this they must believe by a revelation without Scripture and this is an Enthusiasm And the Roman church pretending this priviledge above other Church's makes it a private revelation Again though there are several waies of revelation yet I would aske how many waies there are of infallible assistance distinguished from revelation let them tell us or else conclude against themselves that they must have the sense of Scripture interpreted by revelation because by infallible assistance The pen-men of Scripture they had infallible assistance but that was by revelation Let us know what infallible assistance there is without a revelation specially since Stapelton and some others likely will have the
faith but only Opinion or humane belief ANSVVER THe Paper may be resolved into a Supposition and a Reason and a Conclusion To these in order First The Supposition It is not sufficient to make one a Catholick that he believe the same things that a Catholick doth believe unless the Catholick Church be the Ground also of his belief c. as in the Amplification of it This Supposition is indeed the main Position of the Pontificians and that which is formally Constitutive of them in that Denomination so that the Answer to it is not made as to a private Opinion or the Opinion of a private Man but as to the General Tenet of their Church in the matter of it In the Terms the word Catholick is to be distinguished for if they mean thereby such an one as they account a Catholick viz. one subject to the Church of Rome upon its own Authority It is very true that None is such a Catholick but he that shall render his belief to them in all things upon this their Proposal and so whatsoever is the Material Object of their faith yet the Formal Object is the Definition of the Church of Rome But if there be a true Sense upon ancient Account also of a Catholick who doth not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church then there may be in a true sense a Catholick now who doth not make the Church the last Resolutive of faith For where the Scripture was acknowledged the Rule of Faith and Manners also there the Authority of the Church was not the Determinative thereof And that it was will be made good if it be desired by several Testimonies But secondly give it suppose it that None is a Catholick in a right sense but he that believeth what the Church believeth because the Church believeth it yet the Romane will not gain his purpose thereby unless we would grant this Supposition also That the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church which indeed is meant in the Paper though wisely not expressed But this supposition that the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church is not to be yielded neither in regard of Comprehension for that makes a contradiction nor in regard of Dominion neither for other Churches have not submitted themselves to their Authority this needs no disproof from us till it hath a proof from them And thirdly If we should stand up to all that their Church in particular doth propose and if we should assent to it upon their Account we might be damned not for our want of faith but for Excess of faith in the Object Material and for the Error of faith in the Formal Object For we should believe more then is true if we should believe whatsoever they believe and somewhat also destructive of Articles in the Apostles Creed And we should also believe upon the wrong Inductive which is not the Authority of their Church as we may see now in the Answer to the Reason The Reason hath in it somewhat true somewhat false True that faith is to believe a thing because God revealeth it False that there is no Infallible way without a Miracle of his Revelation coming to us but by their Church which they suppose to be the Church its Proposition For if the question be This how shall we come to know whether the Church of Rome be the right Church upon the Authority whereof we must ground our faith Wherein shall we terminate our belief hereof In the Authority of the Church of Rome or not We are to believe that they say which God hath revealed but the Cause of our belief must be because the Church proposeth it So then we must believe the Church of Rome upon her own testimony and we must resolve all into this that the Church of Rome is the right Church although it be neither a Revelation nor a natural Principle such as this that The Whole is greater then the Part which indeed gave the Occasion of that Check which was given to Rome Greater is the Authority of the world then of a City Orbis quam Urbis S. Jerom. in Ep. ad Evagrium Wherefore if the faith of a Catholick must consist in submitting his understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it as is said in the Conclusion yet it is not necessary that this Church should be the Church of Rome For this in proportion would be to resolve our Perswasions into the Judgment of particular Men because a Particular Church which according to the Paper makes no Catholick faith but an Opinion or humane belief REPLY IN the Paper received the Position which I gave It is not sufficient c. is disliked because it makes the Catholick Church the Ground of our belief but in truth I find no reason given for such dislike or any thing said against it but what to me seems very strange and is this If there be a true sense upon ancient account also of a Catholick who doth not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church c. To which I answer that I would fain know what Catholick upon ancient Account did not believe Articles of faith upon the Proposal of the Church or indeed how can I account him a Catholick without a palpable Contradiction that doth not believe the Catholick Church S. Iren. l. 3. c. 4. saith We ought not to seek among others the truth which we may easily take and receive from the Church seeing that the Apostles have most fully laid up in her as into a rich Treasure-house or place where the Depositum of the Church is kept all things which are of truth that every man that will may take out of her the drink of life For this is the Entrance of life but all the rest are Thieves and Robbers for which cause they are verily to be avoyded But those things which are of the Church are with great diligence to be loved and the tradition of truth is to be received And the said Iren. l. 1. c. 3. telleth us that the Church keepeth with most sincere diligence the Apostles faith and that which they preached S. Cypr. Ep. ad Cornel. avoucheth that the Church alwayes holdeth that which she first knew See also his Ep. 69. ad Florentium And S. Aug. had so great an Estimation of the Church that he sticked not to say cont Ep. Manich. quam vocant Fundamentum c. 5. I would not believe the Gospel except the Authority of the Church did move me thereunto Moreover disputing against Cresconius concerning the baptism of Hereticks l. 1. cont Cresc he useth this discourse Although of this that the baptisme of Hereticks is true baptism there be no certain Example brought forth out of the Canonical Scriptures yet also in this we keep the truth of the said Scriptures when as we do that which now hath pleased the whole Church which the Authority of the Scriptures themselves doth commend That
Church as visible whose proposals we must receive and submit our understanding unto For the Invisible Church or Church as Invisible cannot order us in our Belief because as such it is not known to us I come now to your Testimonies And your first witnesse is Saint Irenaeus Answ We yeild all to Saint Irenaus nothing to you We say we ought not to seek amongst others the truth which we may easily take and receive from the Church c. Yes because the Church is serviceable to the truth by way of Ministery to deliver the Word of Truth to keep the Word of Truth to uphold the Word of Truth And so we acknowledge the Church to be a sufficient Treasury of Truth because we have therein the Scriptures But the Treasury doth not make the Money true nor currant for it is possible that there may be false Money in the Treasury Therefore we must not take it to be lawfull because it cometh out from thence and so the Scripture is not made true to us or the sense of it evidently credible to us because it is in the Church But we must look whose Image and Superscription the Doctrine hath and whether it be right coyn or not and it may seem to be of the right stamp and yet not Therefore saith Origen in his 34. Hom. upon Matth. All Money 1. Every word that hath the Royal stamp of God and the Image of his Word upon it is lawful Therefore we must bring it to the Word for trial We confesse we may take out of her the drink of Life yes but as out of a cistern such water as cometh from the Fountain the Scripture and we drink out of the Scripture the Water of Life as Tertullian in his Prescriptions We deny not this to be the entrance of Life because we have here the means of grace administred And all without the Church we say are thieves and robbers and they ought to be avoyded Yes All without the bosome of the Catholick Church which would break her Peace and rob her Treasury are as thieves and robbers and ought to be avoyded We grant that those things which are of the Church as being true from Scripture in points of faith or not repugnant to Scripture in things of Discipline are with great diligence to be loved And we allow it that the tradition of Truth is to be received Yes thus the tradition of Scripture the word of Truth or the Truth delivered in writing for so Tradition not seldome signifieth Or tradition of Truth which is according to Scripture as the Apostles Creed Not that whatsoever is delivered should be Truth as you would have it but whatsoever Truth is delivered should be received This is all that place as seemeth to me will afford Your second Testimony from the same Father may it self answer the Objection of the former and may confirm my answer Onely let me adde that he speaketh of the Church then purer then now If you will have more said to this you may find it in Saint Cyprians authority which you produce next The Church Catholick alwayes holdeth not maketh that which she first knew Where in Scripture Where else And where the Church holds that which it thus knew we hold with it and are beholden to the Church for holding it forth to us The Church may inform us of it but it doth not certifie it to us therefore doth not infallibly conveigh it the Truth to us therefore is not the ground of Faith The Office of the Church is as a Candlestick to hold the Light of the Word of Truth And moreover though is did alwayes hold that which it knew might it not also hold somewhat which she did not know Though it did hold that which was true might it not hold that which was false in other things As the Church of Rome holds many things which are true wherein we differ not and also many things false wherein she exceeds the Catholick Faith as in regard of Object Now put case therefore that that ancient Church near the Apostles times did not hold any point false but did hold Every point true yet even from hence nothing will be inferred sufficiently to your purpose unlesse you can prove that it was appointed by God to be the ground of Faith by an impossibility of errour in any particular Such is to be the ground of our Faith which is wanting in the Church not privatively as if it had been ever promised but Negatively because not promised to the Church after the Apostles times If it were possible that the Church might not erre yet this would not make us rest our Faith in it Faith hath no sure footing in such contingencies of Truth unlesse you prove a non-possibility of erring you doe nothing But we come now to the signal testimony of this kind that of Saint Austin I would not beleeve the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did move me To which I answer First if the testimonies of the other Fathers be defective in clearnesse or fulnesse as to this matter the testimony of one single Father though excellent will not amount to the Verdict of the whole Church and you have no Fathers yet for you for any thing I see Secondly Take this passage by it self and it seems to speak high but consider it with the tenour of his discourse in the whole chapter and it is like you will begin to think that it comes out from him in some heat of spirit to overcome his adversary Thirdly you will be pleased to give me leave to use a Criticisme which admitted according to the reasonablenesse of it will somewhat change the property of this suffrage It appeareth by compare of places in African writers that as is observed their manner was to expresse the tense more then past by the imperfect and also that he in other places must so be understood And if so here then it must refer to him as when he was a Manichee he was moved then as such by the authority of the Church to the embracing of the Gospel And so we grant that the authority of the Church doth move to beleeve the Scriptures But this cometh not to the case in hand which is intended for particular points of faith whether we should ground our faith of them in the Scripture and not in the proposal of the Church Neither is this an universal way as is pretended of coming to the beleef of the Scriptures by the commendation of the Church for some have been added to the Church immediately from the word as in the second of the Acts at the preaching of Saint Peter as is noted And yet fourthly mark the terms It is not said I would not believe the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did cause me but unlesse the authority of the Church did move me And thus this Testimony doth very well agree with our Opinion The authority of the Church might move him although he did ground his
finde in my heart not to say a word to them that you might see I do not give them that respect as to the Fathers And yet take the strength of all their authorities together and make of them an accumulative argument as we may speak yet they do not conclude your cause Calvin and his Schollar in their sayings affirm no more then that which we acknowledge not from them that the Church shall by the assistance of the Spirit be sufficiently furnished with necessary Doctrine unto Salvation but those of the Church invisible may be saved though the Church visible be not Infallible and by consequence not the ground of Faith As for Doctor Saravia's passage I answer it doth not come up close to your purpose The H. G. which beareth rule in the Church objectively is the true Interpreter of Scripture and thus it is not for you And if you understand the Church objectively yet first the matter he seems to speak to is of Discipline about Government of the Church depending upon Primitive Example but we are upon points of Faith Secondly He cannot be contrary to himselfe when he acts as he did formerly in the time of the Apostles but whether he doth so act now is a question yea no question Thirdly If you will with him and from him draw the Government of the Church to be proportionably Episcopal with all my heart I reject them that reject it And your Adversaries of Wittenberg confesse nothing for you The rule they speak of namely Prophetical and Apostolical preaching c. it is the Word of God written according to which she is bound to interpret those places which are obscure and to judge of Doctrines according to the rule which she hath received so as her Interpretations are to be agreeable to the analogy of Faith and her judgements of Doctrines to be made according to the Law of the Word namely harder places are to be expounded by those which are more plain and Controversies to be decided by that rule And all this makes nothing for you For thus the Scripture is the Rule ruling and the Church is but the Rule ruled And thus we follow the Church as the Church followes the rule as Saint Paul saith Be ye followers of me as I am of Christ in the first Epistle to the Corinthians c. 11. v. 1. Or if those Lutherans mean by a certain rule any rule distinguished from Scripture it is to be understood of some general heads of Christian Doctrine in proportion whereunto doubtfull places and Doctrines were to be judged But those heads were to be gathered out of Scripture And so all is resolved towards belief in Scripture but I think no man can see how they should say such a rule which was not Scripture was confirmed by miracles So for them And for Doctor Field if you will go through the twentieth chapter of the fourth Book you shall finde nothing in him contrary to this Doctrine For he saith plainly that though the Canonical Books are received by way of Tradition yet the Scriptures have not their authority from the approbation of the Church but they win credit of themselves and yeild satisfaction to all men of their Divine Truth whence we judge that the Church which receiveth them is led by the Spirit of God Observe not because the Church is led by the Spirit of God therefore doth he say she receiveth them but because she receiveth them therefore we judge she is led by the Spirit of God And as for his Rule of Faith descending by Tradition from the Apostles what is he like to mean but the Apostles Creed which he saith there was delivered in the Church as a Rule of her Faith But even this binds not by authority of the Church or upon Vertue of Tradition but by proportion to Scripture where it is found in particulars of matter though not in form of a Creed We confesse also that we should search out the true Church as the same Doctour saith We confesse that the Catholick Church is the Houshold of Faith the Spouse of Christ the Church of the Living God and that we should embrace her Communion and rest in her judgement Yes but how Not ultimately not absolutely not in what so ever she saith because shee saith it but in what so ever shee saith from the Lord. For although she doth goe by an infallible Rule yet are we not sure she goeth by it infallibly Therefore though wee rest in her judgements as to Peace yet can wee not rest in her judgements as to Truth because our understandings are not free to assent to what man will as being bound to assent to that onely which is grounded in the Word of God in matters of Faith And now might I Vie with you in number of Pontificians against you See Durand in his Prologue upon the Sentences where he hath more to our purpose then is necessary to be Transcribed Read him your self Gerson also in his Sermon concerning Errours against Faith and Manners about the Precept Thou shalt not kill saith thus More freely more purely more truely more speedily is Truth found out and Errour reproved if the Divine Law alone be constituted as Judge according to the consideration of Aristotle He which makes the Law the Judge makes God but he that addes Man addes a Beast Panormitanus also upon the 5. of the Decret concerning almes in chap. qualiter quando The saying of any Saint established with the Authorities of the New or Old Testament is preferred before a Papal Constitution even in decision of Causes Also Ferus upon the 1 Epistle of Saint John 2. chapter in the 52.3 page of the Antuerpe Edition thus The Holy Ghost doth teach t is by the means of the Holy Scripture and Word Again The Holy Scripture is given to us as a certain sure Rule of Christian Doctrine And again in the same page For if having the Holy Scripture as a most certain Rule of Christian Doctrine set before our Eyes we notwithstanding teach things so unlike what would be done if the Scriptures were taken away And if you say now that there is added to those places Tradition in the Roman Edition after the Trent Council as is noted You will get nothing by that but shame to the Pontificians And now I think I am not much behind hand with you in Testimonies about the Question But then afterwards you presse harder upon me So you say but I do not yet feel the weight of any thing you say I beleeve the Creed and that the Church is Holy And I do not beleeve but know that from hence nothing is coming to your cause The Catholick Church makes not it self the ground of Faith but is grounded in it as before And how were the first Members of the Catholick Church made Christians but by the Word of God And from the Holynesse of it doth not follow infallibility by the Roman distinction which saith that the Pope may erre
is strangled See here among Necessary things one is to abstain from blood which Christians do not nor think not to be done for they freely eat black Puddings and also to abstain from things strangled as when we strangle Chickens and eat them freely If you tell me that Scripture onely is Iudge of Controversies I will tell you that by the Iudgement of this Iudge following no other as infallible woe be to the Opinion of all Catholiques and Protestants who hold it lawful to work upon Saturdayes unlawful on Sundayes lawful to eat Blood and Strangled things unlawful to abstain from them as still forbidden woe I say to our Opinion for it not onely will not be judged as undoubtedly true by Scripture but also it will and that undoubtedly be judged false by the Places now cited I pray tell me here how Men of mean capacity yea how Men of the greatest capacity in the World shall be able to finde by the judgement of Scripture onely what is Infallibly to be believed in these points in which so many hundred Thousands of Jewes damnably differ from us Did not all this Kingdome of England grounded upon Scriptures clear enough as they said both hold and swear that they held the King the Head of the Church can any point in the Church be of higher concernment to the Church then to know for certain their own Head And yet this point is now no longer ascertained us by the Infallible judgement of Scripture For another example what Controversie can more import then to be undoubtedly and by Infallible Authority secured which books of Scripture be Canonical and the certain Word of God and which be not You say there is no Infallibility of any verity to be had but by the Scripture But I say that in all the Scripture no Infallibility can be had concerning the Canon of the Scripture wherefore either we cannot know this most important point of all points infallibly or else we must acknowledge the Church to be Infallible for the Scripture in this point is wholly silent We dispute and differ highly about the books of Macchabees whether they be the certain Word of God or no. I pray tell me how shall this grand Controversie be decided and decided Infallibly by the â—udgement of Scripture Luther denyeth the Apocalypse to be true Scripture we all in England stand out against him I pray tell me what Scripture we have against him that is Infallible without begging the question which is called into Controversie We all believe the Gospel of St. Matthew not onely to be the true Gospel of Christ and his Word but also to be the Gospel of St. Matthew as also the Gospel of St. Mark to be written by St. Mark If any Man should deny this what place of Scripture could we cite against him or what Infallible ground have we of this our belief The Marcionists the Cerdonists the Manichaeans do absolutely deny St. Matthews Gospel to be Gods Word This Controversie you say and all other Controversies of Faith is to be ended by the Scripture I ask what place of Scripture will end this Controversie and all other Controversies about all other books of Scripture which have almost all been denyed to be Gods Word by some Hereticks or other And as for St. Matthew you must know that all Ancient Writers no one excepted do say that he did write in Hebrew and yet neither his Hebrew Gospel nor any one certain Copy of it is extant in the World Tell me then upon what undoubted Ground you beleeve any thing that is in St. Matthews Gospel onely The Greek Translation which we have was made by God knows whom for we know not He might be a faithful or unfaithful Translator he might use a false uncorrect Copy he might mistake in many places by Ignorance in many by Negligence or Malice Upon what Infallible ground shall a converted Manichaean as St. Austin for example believe this Greek Gospel which we have By what Scripture will you presse him to it yea upon what Scripture do you your selves beleeve this Gospel this Greek Translation of S. Matthew If you tell me Saint Matthew did write in Greek I must tell you that all Antiquity no one antient Author excepted say the contrary How will you then ground Infallible belief upon your so new and so uncertain Opinion When this question was moved whether any Book was to be received as the Infallible Word of God or no The Holy Fathers could never finde any more undoubted ground then that the Church did allow or not allow of such Books to be held for Gods undoubted Word Upon this ground St. Athanasius in fine Synopsis receiveth the Gospel of St. Matthew and the other Three Gospels and rejected the Gospel of St. Thomas Upon this Ground Tertullian St. Hierome St. Austin and St. Leo professe themselves to admit such and to deny other Books to be Canonical Upon this ground it is that Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 3.19 saith such Scriptures are held for true genuine and manifestly allowed by the opinion of all because they are so According to the Tradition of the Church and that by this Evident Note or Mark they are distinguished from others Behold the most perspicuous mark by which Scriptures could be Infallibly known to be or not be Gods undoubted Word is the Tradition of the Church Whence St. Austin giving a reason to the Manichaeans who believed some part of the Gospel why he cited the Acts of the Apostles which they believed not saith thus Which Book of the Acts it is necessary for me to believe if I believe the Gospel being the Catholick Authority in like manner commendeth both these Scriptures to me So he contra Ep. Fund c. 4. By this the Author of the Reply may see how Insufficient his Answer pag. 25. is when he saith Indeed we take the Canonical Books by Tradition from the Church but we do not take them to be Canonical upon her Tradition but assent is setled in them as Canonical in the way of Faith because they are such In thy light we shall see light so by Scripture we shall see Scripture So he but not so any one of the Fathers who were most often pressed to give a reason why they believed such Books to be Canonical why not None of these professed themselves to be so sharp sighted that by seeing onely Canonical Scriptures they could see them to be Canonical Scriptures and that so manifestly as to ground their Faith upon it You by the Apocalyps see it to be Canonical your most illuminated Luther could not see it to be so by that light By all the light he had he Judged St. James his Epistle to be made of Straw yet you see in it a light shewing undoubtedly it to be Gods Word You cannot see the two first Books of Macchabees to be Canonical yet St. Austin believed them to be so for that the Councel of Carthage Can. 47. received them for
also confesse yet I also say that this Church of Christ must be confessed to be Infallible But withall I would have every one know that the Roman Church doth oblige to no more then to believe that the Pope defining with a lawful General Councel cannot erre for it is no necessary Article of Faith to believe that the Pope or head of the Church cannot erre when he defineth without a General Councel Now that this definition of a whole General Councel is Infallible ought not to seem strange to any Christian for who can think it strange that Christ for the secure direction of the first Christians whom the Apostles converted should give this Infallibility to all and every one of the Apostles and that he should regard so little the secure direction of all other Christians who were to be from the Apostles time to the end of the world that for their sakes for the secure direction of their Souls he would not give this Infallibility so much as to one Man no not to all the Prelats of Christianity assembled together with their head to define matters most necessary and in which all error would be most pernicious who I say could think this strange especially being this gift of Infallibility is given not for their private sakes to whom it is given but for the universal good and necessary direction concord and perpetual unity of the whole Church You must acknowledge that he gave Infallibility of Doctrine to all those who did write any small part of the Old or New Scripture He gave it to David though he was an Adulterer he gave it to Solomon who proved not only a most vicious Man in Life but who for his own person in point of Faith came to fall into Worshipping of Idols This you will not have thought strange but you will hold it Incredible that he should give this Infallibility not to one Man but the whole Church represented in a General Councel Let us passe on further yet and see how firmly this Infallibility is grounded I have above shewed how strongly it is grounded on those words of God promising a Holy way a way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it See here the third Number In the eight Number I have shewed that we cannot ground that Faith by which we believe the Sabbath to be changed to the Sunday upon Scripture but we must ground it upon the Tradition of the Church which if it be not Infallible we have no Infallible Ground at all for this point And in the ninth Number I have shewed the self-same to be about eating Blood or Chickens or any thing that is strangled In the 11 12 and 13. Number I have demonstrated that by the Scripture we cannot know which is true Scripture which is false which Books be Infallibly the Word of God which not for the Scripture hath not one Text in which it telleth us this and therefore for this Important point of Faith we can finde no other sure Ground then the Tradition of an Infallible Church for a fallible Tradition may deceive us In the 14. Number I have shewed that when Controversies arise as most and most Important Controversies do arise about the true meaning of the Scripture even after we have conferred all places together and looked upon the Original Languages the the Controversies still remain undecided and no Infallible way can be found to decide them by Scripture There is therefore no Infallible way to decide them if the decision and definition of the whole Church in a General Councel be not Infallible This is so clear that to the wonder of the world Luther himself in his Book of the Power of the Pope writeth thus We are not certain of any private Man that he hath the Revelation of the Father The Church alone it is of which it is not lawful to doubt So he In the 15. Number I have shewed that there be many points necessarily to be believed under pain of damnation which points are not at all set down in any clear Scripture For these points it is manifest that we can have no other ground then the Authority of the Church If this be not Infallible then we have onely fallible ground which cannot be a ground of Faith In the 16. Number I have confirmed the same Doctrine by the Authority of Saint Austin and Saint Chrysostome In the 17. Number I have proved this Doctrine clearly out of Gods Promise that he would build this his Church upon a Rock and that the Gates of Hell should not prevail against it which the Gates of Hell might easily do if the Church could come to teach damnable errors carrying her and her Children into the Gates of Hell it self The same in the same place I have proved by Gods commanding us to Tell the Church and commanding us to hold all those who will not hear the Church as Publicans and Heathens and by making good in Heaven the Sentence of the Church given upon Earth which he would not do if the Church should have at any time failed in her definition and that in points damnably erroneous In the 18. Number I have alledged other Texts still proving the same In the 19. Number I have shewed that for two Thousand years together before the Scriptures were written the true believers had no other sure ground of their Faith but the Authority of the Church which if it had been fallible the very ground of their Faith had been groundlesse and none at all The first Believers also and many whole Nations had no other ground then the said Authority of the Church as there I have shewed out of Saint Irenaeus and it is clear of it self for they did not build their Faith on any Scriptures Thus far I have gone already in the proof of the Infallibility of the Church Now I go on with those words of Saint Paul 1 Tim. 3. v. 15. where the Church of the living God is called The Pillar and Ground of Truth May not Men rely securely upon the Pillar of Truth May they not ground themselves assuredly on the ground of Truth No ground being surer ground and more infallible then the ground of Truth it self Yea my Adversary having found a place in St. Irenaeus calling the Scripture the Foundation and Pillar of Faith doth infer that if it be so then it is the ground and cause of our faith If this consequence be strong which I deny not then is it yet a stronger that the Truth is no where surer grounded then upon the Pillar and Foundation of Truth But my Adversary would take this place of St. Paul from me because he saith This expression may very reasonably be referred not to the Church but to the mystery of Godlyness and so be an Hebrew form c. Surely he forgot that this Epistle was not written in Hebrew but in Greek and then again No Hebrew form in the world can make the sense he intends What can be
ever Now of no Kingdome in the world but of the Kingdome of Christs Church this can be understood This Church therefore shall stand for ever And consequently at no time it shall fall into damnable errors for then it is true to say It doth not stand but is faln most damnably Again in Isaiah 29. God doth clearly declare his Covenant with his Church according to the Interpretation of Saint Paul himself Rom. 11.26 This is my Covenant with them saith the Lord my Spirit which is upon thee and the words which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed saith the Lord from henceforth and for ever But how could the Word of the Lord more depart from the Mouth of the Church then if she should with her mouth teach damnable errors From this therefore he secureth his Church for ever and ever Hence Saint Austin saith l. de Unitat. Eccl. cap. 6 7 12 13. See him also l. 20. de Civit. cap. 8. in Psalm 85. de Utilit Credendi c. 8. Whosoever affirmeth the Church to have been overthrown as it were if at any time it should teach any damnable error doth rob Christ of his glory and Inheritance bought with his precious Blood yea Saint Hierom cont Lucifer c. 6. goeth farther and averreth that He that so saith doth make God subject to the Devil and a poor miserable Christ The reason is because this Assertion doth after a sort bereave the whole Incarnation Life and Passion of our Saviour of their Effect and End which was principally to found a Church and Kingdome in this world which should endure to the day of Judgement and direct Men in all Truth to Salvation Wherefore whosoever affirmeth the Church to have perished taketh away this effect and Prerogative from his Incarnation Life and Passion and avoucheth that at some times Man had no means left to attain to everlasting blisse which is also repugnant to the Mercy and goodnesse of God He also maketh God subject to the Devil in making the Devil stronger then Christ and affirming him to have overthrown Christs Church and Kingdome which our Lord promised should never be conquered That the Holy Fathers did believe the Church of Christ to be Infallible and of an Authority sufficient to ground Faith upon appeareth by their relying onely upon her Authority in the chiefest Articles of Faith which is to believe such and such Books are the true Word of God and upon this onely ground they ground this their Faith as in the 12. Number I have shewed Saint Athanasius Saint Hierome Saint Austin Tertullian and Eusebius to have received such Books for Gods Word and to have not received others and to have received such with veneration of Divine Authority as St. Austin spoke And upon this infallible Authority they all believed God the Father not to be begotten God the Sonne to be begotten by his Father onely and to be Consubstantiall to him and God the Holy Ghost not to be begotten but to proceed from both Father and Son Upon this infallible Authority they all held children to be baptized though nothing for certain could be alledged out of the Canonical Scriptures in this point but onely the Catholique Church taught this to be done as in the 16th Numb have shewed out of St. Austin who there calleth this relying on the Churches Authority The most true inviolable Rule of Faith And S. Chrysostome there also saith that these unwritten Traditions of the Church infallible onely in her Authoritie are as worthy of faith and credit as that which is written in Scripture And in the 19th Numb I have shewed out of St. Irenaeus That we should have bin as much obliged to believe although no Scriptures had been written as we are now and that the faith of whole Nations is grounded not in Scripture but consequently on the infallible Authority of the Church whose word he calleth the Word of God as I shewed in the end of the 22th Number I summe up all these Authorities that my Adversary may not say as he did that the authority of St. Austin was single when he believed the Gospel to be Gods Word upon the infallible authority of the Church for if her authority be by so many Fathers acknowledged infallible then St. Austin is not single in his opinion in this point But because that place of St. Austin speaketh home and because my Adversary saith That if we take this passage by it self it seemeth to speak high but saith he if we consider the tenour of Saint Austins discourse in the whole chapter It is like we will begin to think that it came from him in some heat of spirit to overcome his Adversary For these causes I say I will consider the tenour of St. Austins Discourse in this whole Chapter and I will shew manifestly that this his Doctrine was so far from coming out from him in some heat of Spirit to overcome his adversary that he maketh it the very prime Ground of his discourse and without he will stand to that Ground he there must needs seem to say nothing against his Adversary This Chapter is the fourth Chapter Cont. Ep. Manichaei The whole substance of it is this The Epistle of Manichaeus beginneth thus Manichaeus the Apostle of Jesus Christ by the Providence of God the Father I ask therefore saith Saint Austin who this Manichaeus is You will answer the Apostle of Christ I do not believe it Perhaps you will read the Gospel unto me endevouring thence to prove it And what if you did fall upon one who did not as yet believe the Gospel what would you do then if such an one said I do not believe you This is his first Argument to shew that his Adversary by citing Texts out of the Gospel to prove Manichaeus a true Apostle could prove nothing against those who as yet have not believed the Gospel then he goeth on But because I am not one who have not yet believed the Gospel and so this Answer cannot serve me notwithstanding I must tell you that I am such an one that I would not believe the Gospel without the Authority of the Catholick Church did move me This being the ground of his Answer you shall see how he builds upon this and onely this Ground It followeth then thus I having therefore obeyed those Catholique Pastors saying Believe the Gospel the most Important point of Points Why should I not obey them saying to me do not believe Manichaeus Then upon this ground he presseth home saying Chuse which you will if you say believe the Catholiques then I must not believe you for they teach me not to give Faith to you wherefore believing them as I do I cannot believe you Now if you say do not believe the Catholiques then you do not go consequently to force me by the Gospel to give Faith to Manichaeus
yet will it not 〈◊〉 your 〈◊〉 unlesse you can prove that whatsoever priviledges were promised to the first Church in the times of the Apostles should in full dimensions be alwayes extended to your Church and your Church onely Therefore your Isidor Clarius doth apply this Text to the time of our Saviour when he did make the Blind to See the Lame to Walk as he sent word to John the Baptist And therefore since it was signally accomplished then we cannot urge the performance of it in that equality in a sense spiritual which also seems to be acknowledged by Saint Hierome upon the place where the opening of the Ears of the Deaf he doth apply to the Scripture Preached and the way he saies to be God Now then as we cannot solidly argue from the promise of pouring out the gifts of the Holy Spirit which was solemnly and subfâ—â—a visibile made good upon the Apostles as â—oâ—hâ— Peter declared that there shall be the like effusion of immediate gifts upon the Church in the following ages which some Sectaries would plead so neither can we rationally conclude from this promise which was as that excellent manner and in the Letter perfected by our Saviour Christ that it shall be continued to any Church iâ— that measure of a spiritual kind If we cannot evince the same perfection in the same kinde surely can we not by our accommodation of sense evince the same perfection in another kind upon the former consideration because it is mystical and that not argumentative 3. This path and this way and this holy way so that fools cannot erre is upon supposition promised to the Church Is it not Well then if it be promised to the Church then the Church is not that way for that way is promised to the Church so that the Church is not absolutely that way but so far as it goeth that way which is as much as was said before and is not yet answered that the Church is regula regulata not regulans Take then the matter thus that way which the Church goes we must goâ—â— The Church goes by the way of Gods-Word revealed and so must we therefore we are not bound to follow the Church with blind obedience which excludes Faith because that includes Knowledge although it be contradistinguished to Science Fourthly If the promise did belong to the Church in all times yet not to any Church of one denomination therefore untill you can prove that your Church is all this makes nothing for you Particular Churches have not those properties which belong to the Universal Church as such And if you make a proof of the Church to be the holy way because the Church is holy how easily is that undone because there is more reason that the Scripture should be the holy way for that is perfectly holy or the Holy Ghost is the Judge because he is essentially holy but neither is the Church perfectly holy here nor essentially holy not in Heaven And besides secondly the Holy Church if you understand it with relation to the Creed as in your former Paper it is to be taken of the Church invisible which as such is on way And thus I have slighted your strong hold as it seems to you for hitherto you do fly very often In your third Number you come to an assertion of the necessity of an Infallible Judge You say that all Christians of whatsoever Religion do agree in this that there must be one Judge of all Controversies and Doubts which either be or can be in Religion So you You speak very largely of your supposition as if it were agreed to by all Christians but you do not consider that you do leave out that which makes the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the state of the question whether there must be an Infallible Judge on Earth for that is not consented to on all hands by all Religions indeed by none but yours That God either essentially taken or personally the Holy Ghost is the Supreme Universal Infallible Judge and onely in whose Authority we rest and whose word is the Ground of Faith we hold Under him subordinate Judges there are but not Infallible neither is it by your reason sufficiently confirmed that there should be on Earth any Infallible Judge For the defect of such a Judge on Earth doth not leave us free without any fault to follow our own private judgement in holding what we will For first it is impossible for us to hold what we will in our judgements We may possibly though not morally professe what we will although contrary to our judgements as many doe but we cannot assent to what we will because our Understanding is not free to take which part of the opposition it pleaseth by way of Will for it embraceth Truth naturally as it sees it and it cannot give a rational assent without a due conviction and therefore your implicite Faith is false and null Secondly We do not say that we should follow our own judgement of discretion without meanes of regulating our judgement but yet after we have perused the Definitions of Councils and Sentences of the Fathers we cannot resigne up our Assents to their Dictates upon their account but do examine them as the Beraeans did that which Saint Paul said untill we can finde them resolved into the Infallible rule of Holy Scripture For let me ask a Papist according to the renour of your first Paper What doth he believe he answers that which the Church believeth and why doth he believe it because the Church believeth it and why doth the Church believe it because it received it from the first Church through the Sentences of the Fathers or the Determinations of Councils Well but how shall the People know whether this Tradition of Doctrine is truly discerned and faithfully delivered but if so why is he bound to believe the first Church because either they were the Apostles oâ— had it from the Apostles And why doth he believe the Apostles Because they were inspired by the Holy Ghost Well in what they wroâ—e or in what they spoke or both In both Well but how do we know what they spoke We know what they wrote bears witnesse of it self so doth not to us what they spoke so that although they were inspired in whaâ— they spoke yet we know not what they spoke Neither can we be assured by a Divine Faith that what of them was not written is certainly derived And therefore all of Faith must be terminated and determined in that which is written And as towards Controversies we say thirdly that Christ hath sufficiently provided for the Salvation of Man in regard of means of knowledge without an Infallible Judge on Earth of their Controversies because things necessary are plainly set down in Scripture and for matters of question we are not in any such danger if we do our endevour according to our condition to finde out Truth and do dispose our selves to Belief as we shall see
many have differed from themselves Is then this the way that fools cannot erre If wise men go this way surely this is their first errour that they go this way wherein nothing is found but perplexities and unsatisfiednesse Neither can they soberly raise the credit of their Doctrine by prime descent without interruption from the Apostolique age if all be well considered Such a confidence let me give a check to by application of a storie A Christian Prince was much seduced by a kind of men who professed a vast Art of giving a certain account of many Ages before and a trifling Courtier perceiving his humour made him believe that his Pedegree in antient race of Royal Blood might be fetched from Noah's Ark wherewith he being greatly delighted forthwith laid aside all businesse and gave himself to the search of the thing so earnestly that he suffered none to interrupt him whosoever no not Embassadours which were sent to him about most weighty affairs Many marvelled hereat but none durst speak their mind till at length his Cook whom he used sometimes as his Fool told him that the thing he went about was nothing for his honour for now saith he I worship your Majestie as a God but if we go once to Noahs Arke we must there your self and I both be akinne This the Storie which is so long that it reacheth you from top to toe for you would by a verie long series derive your authoritie as it were from Noahs Arke which you think represents your Church out of which there is no salvation You would run it up from verie many successions to the times of the Apostles and nothing will content you but this ancient Original You lay aside all other proofs in comparison of this succession not so much of Doctrine indeed as of Church Embassadours that are sent to you with Scripture you will not hear unlesse your Church may have the power of Interpretation infallibly in your own cause But let some of the Popes servants whom he makes his Fools inform him that that which he goes about is little for his Honour for now they worship him as a God but if they come to the times of the Apostles there will be found no such distance betwixt him and others and consanguinitie of Doctrine as it is expressed will be able to disinherit your points of difference formerly named with invocation of Saints 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Where doe we finde them Where may we read them Therefore urge not Antiquitie unlesse Truth goes along with it on your side and do not any more strain the consent of ages for Doctrines which as we may speak will be out of breath long before they come to that mightie height of the Apostolique time As for your instance of Saint Cyprian erring by perswasion of that which he held to be Scripture and St. Austins Crisis of his errour I Answer First You see here Saint Cyprian a Prime Doctor of the Church did then ground his Opinion upon Scripture without recourse to Tradition And this makes for us that he thought it no injurie to the Church to varie from what was held or practised upon respect to Scripture He undertook to think and doe otherwise then Christendome then in the point of Rebaptization and yet was not accused as an Heretique Secondly He erred groslie and yet not dangerouslie because he held his Opinion without malignance to the Church and so may we without peril of salvation And if you say the case is different betwixt him and us because that point wherein he went not with the Church was not then defined by a Council We answer what shall we say then of the times in the Church before there was any Council and therefore in those times the Rule of Faith and Action was without a Council and therefore this answer doth not satisfie or they were ruled only by Scripture which may satisfie you Thirdly He erred not in the substance of the Act when he pleaded Scripture but in the misapplication of Scripture to that case and therefore this Argument comes to the fallacie of accident and this makes no prejudice against Scripture which in it self is contrary to errour without defectibilitie and therefore he that indeed follows Scripture cannot erre because it is Infallible So cannot we say of the Church for ought yet we see by your Discourse Fourthly This makes no more disadvantage to the prerogative of Scripture then that the Pelagians for their Opinions urged the Testimonies of the Fathers which caused Saint Austin to make an Apologie for them Vobis Pelagianis when you Pelagians were not yet born the Fathers spake more securely namely of the power of nature Nay surely it makes a great deal lesse for the Father if in this he had followed the Fathers whom the Bitagians quoted had erred not by his Interpretation of them but it seems by their inconfideratenesse But we cannot charge Scripture with any such fault and therefore Saint Cyprian erred by misinterpretation And here also by the way we see how fallible a rule is the consent of the Fathers since if Saint Austin had ordered his belief thereby he had been overtaken with Pelagianisme Now as for Saint Austins crisis concerning this of Saint Cyprian that if he had lived to see the Determination of a plenary Council he would for his great humilitie and charitie straightway have yielded and preferred the General Council before his judgement to this besides what we now said about the undefinednesse of it by a Council we say It is like he would have yielded and this yet accrews not unto your cause much For first Saint Austin sayes for his great humilitie and charitie he would have yielded And this manner of Expression you may perceive doth abstract from a necessitie of duty Under bond of Duty these vertues have no freedome He was so humble of mind that he would have thought better of them he was so charitable that for this he would have offended none in this case but doth this infer that he was bound in conscience to sink his Opinion in the authoritie of their Definition No no. Humilitie and Charitie have in them no formalitie influxive unto Faith for this is seated in the understanding but to peace Therefore this yielding of his supposed upon the Case would have onely concerned his person as not to have opposed here not his judgement as if this should necessarily have been overcome by their Authority For the person may be bound when the Conscience cannot be bound so may the person yield as to the omission of opposite acts when the understanding yet keeps its former due apprehension Secondly this businesse of Saint Cyprian is such as is a matter of practice not clearly decided by Scripture but this avails not to an universal conclusion of ruling our faith by the Church which although you at the beginning did seem to wave yet here would in your discourse insinuate and wind in The summe of
ground established the necessarinesse of an Infallible Judge I need go no further till this be made sure I need not have any thing to do with your assumption indeed if I may be so free a presumption Yet lest you should take it amisse or ill if I should say nothing to it by it selfe I shall not let it passe without some notice of it But what you say at first here that if we finde out this Judge we can never remain in any doubt for without all doubt we must stand to the judgement of this Judge what reasons soever our private judgement or discretion may suggest So you this spoyles all and this is an argument against you that which you say is little else then Contradictio in adjecto as they speak If we must submit our judgements to an Infallible Judge pretended whatsoever reasons of Scripture I mean we have to the contrary then there is no such Judge for it is impossible for us in our judgements to assent to that for which we see reasons of Scripture to the contrary Take Reason simply and so in matters of Faith it must quiescere as the School phrase is as a principle because the doctrine of Faith is supernatural in the judgement of Aquinat at the beginning of his Summs but take Reason as an Instrument for the finding out of the sense of Scripture and so what moments we finde in Scripture for any opinion we cannot sink in any determinations on Earth As far as the understanding sees appearance of Truth it doth necessarily leap and run to it and will not leave it for any Authority under Heaven and therefore while the reason of Authority is not so clearly drawn from the Word of God as the reason of his Opinion in his own judgement it cannot give up its assent And if we are by duty to go your way of absolute credence to the dictates of your Judge we must then if he saies Vices are Vertues say so too as your Cardinal Bellarmin determins in his 4. Book de Rom. Pontif. cap. 5. And thus you again see whither your blind obedience will lead you even from darknesse to darknesse In the seventh Number you lay to our charge an agreement with all Hereticks that have risen up against the Church because we as all Protestants do hold that the Scripture is the onely Judge by which all doubts and differences and Controversies of Religion are to be determined with Infallible Authority To this Saint Austin answers l. de Trinit cap. 38. We also answer to this charge first as before that Hereticks have urged Authority too and therefore by your argument you must quit your way of the Authority of the Church or else grant us our way of Scripture notwithstanding Secondly doth it follow rationally that because the Hereticks have misapplyed Scripture therefore we should not rightly apply it If the Standard be made use of to ill purpose of measuring stoln commodities therefore shall not other measures be ruled hereby It is accidental to Scripture to be thus abused shall it therefore loose its proper priviledge because as Saint Peter saith some who are unlearned and unsetled wrest Scriptures to their destruction therefore those who are learned and setled may not improve it to their Salvation because Robbers make use of the light of the Sun for actions unrighteous and wicked therefore honest men may not use the Light for their lawful imployments Is this good reasoning You had surely raised your discourse to the height if you had told us that we must not urge Scripture because the Devil did urge it unto our Saviour Christ So one indeed concludes as if the Devil did not apprehend what kinde of argument our Saviour would own and what reject therefore did he not set upon him with Tradition of the Church as is noted Neither did Christ reply upon him with Tradition but with Scripture which is a better Argument that this is to be our Rule which we should be be ordered by Thirdly The Hereticks did not presse that which was true Scripture but either corrupted it as Tertullian observes in his praescriptions or took onely so much as was for their use or perverted the sense of it so that if Scripture doth consist in the sense they did not bring Scripture for their proof but that which is not Scripture Fourthly Why doth Bellarmine and others of your Writers so frequently endevour to uphold their Doctrines by Scripture if because the Hereticks use it we must not Neither do they plead Scripture by the Traditional sense of the Church but by their own Interpretations When Scripture seems to them to speak for them then they produce Scripture but when they are oppressed with clear testimonies against them then little respect is given thereunto Fifthly If Controversies are not to be ended by Scripture which the Hereticks plead then how are they to be ended by the judgement of the Church Yes you will say but how shall Hereticks know if they doubt what or which is the true Church it must be by the Scripture so that our last recourse must be to Scripture Again if Hereticks must be perswaded by the Church then are they led if not by their private judgements yet by private judgements of others For besides that the Church consists of private Men the consent of the whole if they could be certain of it being compared to Scripture in way of contradistinction hath it self by manner of private judgement All the publick power it hath it hath by God and Scripture then here again we must end Again how shall Hereticks know that all Controversies are to be ended by the Church they must know it either by their own judgements of discretion which you deny to us or by the Church What in its own cause or by Scripture so we must resolve our selves in Scripture analytically we must bottome there synthetically we must begin there Sixthly This practice of Hereticks if it hath reason to make us forsake Scripture hath it not reason also to make you retract your expressions of your self as towards Scripture that you do professe all reverence and all credit to be due to Scripture as the Infallible word of God insomuch that you are ready to give your lives in defence of any thing conteined herein Will you stand to your words If you will then must you believe that whatsoever is necessary is declared therein sufficiently For what saith the Scripture by Saint Paul Gal. 1.8 If I or an Angel from Heaven preach to you any other Doctrine besides what you have received let him be Anathema And what then becomes of your unwritten word on behalf whereof you wisely cry up the infallibility of the Church in points of Religion For as for the distinction of your men hereupon that the Text is to be understood of that which is against it not of that which is beside it is invalid for it is in the Text beside 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
Judge Is there no more likely-hood of a figurative sense in the words then there is of the being of an Accident without the Subject or of the Body of Christ to be in Heaven and on Earth and in thousands of places at once But you contend the improbability of this sense because he took the Bread and the Cup in his hand and said this is my Body and this is my Bloud Surely this makes no prejudice against us for this was necessary towards the consecrating of that Bread and that Wine otherwise there would have been a Consecration of Bread and VVine in Communi and therefore he spoke demonstratively and this demonstration makes the Subject no lesse capable of a figure then the Praedicate and what difference Behold the Lamb of God or this is the Lamb of God So in the 9. to the Hebrews and the 20. verse Moses having taken the Bloud of Calves and Goats said This is the Bloud of the Testament VVas that Bloud transubstantiated into the Bloud of Christ or when one takes his Testament may he not say this is my VVill although it be but the signe of his Will You take notice also of the different opinions there are about the sense of the words of Institution We have no cause to take it to our selves who have not such variety of conceits therein Neither can you I am sure justifie your Infallibility by your accord herein since some question whether it be transubstantiated and therefore have they a proviso of a conditionate adoration Adoro te si tu es Christus and so many amongst you differ about the manner of the change whether by production which supposeth as is noted the Body not to praeexiste and this is false or by adduction which supposeth against Transubstantiation or by a kinde of Conservative Conversion which is little else then a Contradiction in adjecto therefore answer your self How is it more clearly defined by the Church which was scarce in debate till the time of Berengarius Did the Church all that while want necessaries to Salvation But lastly you should not have pleaded Scripture for this point on your side if you will believe Scotus and your Cardinal Bellarmine who sayes that Scotus held Transubstantiation could not be clearly proved by any Text of Scripture and he himself thinks it not improbable Therefore herein you cannot in their judgement convince us by Scripture and therefore till the Church be Infallible it is no doctrine of Faith as it was not before the Lateran Council as Scotus affirmed by Bellarmins Confession in the 23. chapter of the third Book De Sacramento Eucharistia but if Transubstantiation be not declared in Scripture then our opinion negative to you is more secure and is not concluded not to be in Scripture though you or others will not professe it In the former part of your 15. Number you go over a former argument again to which the former answer may serve As for the other part of your Paragraph concerning all the points of Saint Athanasius's Creed which are not clearly delivered in Scripture and yet he that will be saved must think thus I answer Although the matter of them be not in terminis found in Scripture yet the sense of them according to aequivalence may as well as Transubstantiation when you will endevour to make it out by Scripture Secondly Although we believe what is said in his Creed yet therefore are we not bound to believe it by the Authority of the Church since he would have held it although the Church had not as he did sometimes differ from the common profession of the Church in the Consubstantiality of the Son of God In the beginning of the 16. Paragraph you say somewhat which you had said before to it we say nothing but you raise a new opposition Baptisme of Children to be necessary to their Salvation is a prime point of Belief and yet you cannot believe this prime point of Belief by any clear place of Scripture therefore you mean all necessary points are not clearly believed by Scripture therefore by the Church this must be your dissertation and your minor proposition you confirme by the Testimony of Saint Austin We Answer first to your Major by distinguishing a necessity of Baptisme in general it is necessary by necessity of precept but it is not necessary by necessity of mean to the child so as that if it be not baptized it is undoubtedly damned the former respects the Parents that they should take care of it for their children but if they do not or the child be taken away as many are before it can be done by a lawful Minister we cannot conclude it or them absolutely perished since it is not so necessary to them that were of age at the Primitive Institution Saint Mark the 16.16 Whosoever beleeveth and is Baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned not also and is not Baptized For many there were and cases might be put that there might be more which could not have Baptisme before they died as appears by your Vicarium Baptisma which the Fathers speaks of Then though we may well assure our selves that if Infants rightly Baptized die such they are certainly saved yet can we not as reasonably passe the Verdict of Damnation upon those which are not Baptized As to your assumption we also distinguish if you mean we cannot believe this Poedobaptisme by any clear place of Scripture namely in terminis terminantibus as they speak expresly we grant it but this is not enough for your purpose And if you mean it cannot be clearly believed because by consequence it cannot be proved or because it cannot be clearly beleeved since it is beleeved by consequence then we deny your assumption in both regards For whatsoever is necessarily inferred from Scripture is binding in the vertue of the principle and therefore clearly we may beleeve it Now the institution of Baptisme in general by Christ the substitution of it to circumcision since there is the same Covenant in substance to both Testaments is a sufficient Principle to infer the necessity of Baptisme of Infants besides what may be supposed by baptizing whole Families And therefore this is none of those things which are not grounded in Scripture and therefore no Object of the Church Tradition And therefore Saint Austins Testimony will come to no more then this that though they had nothing for certain alledged out of the Canonical Books in this point yet the truth of Scripture is kept when they do that which seemed good to the Catholique Church namely so far as the Catholique Church keepeth the Truth in clearing that which is not plain in Scripture Which Church the Scripture doth commend as he But is it cōmended for infallibility If not this Testimony and all your Testimonies and all your instances which you have of things not determined in Scripture but determined by the Church will doe you no good for you
must prove that they were and ought to be infallibly determined by the Church upon necessity of salvation because you would conclude your postulate of the necessity of an infallible Judge Now then if those things were not infallibly determined the instances thereof are of no use to you And you may consider that we may in things of practice which in their nature are of free Observation as being neither commanded or forbidden by the Scripture and should follow the Church therefore to bring it to an issue Either this Poedobaptisme was Infallibly followed by the Church or not if infallibly it was so by the moments of Paedobaptisme in Scripture although not perspicuous If not infallibly yet might they follow the Church and should in this Case because if it had been free to them to have done so or not in regard of the thing yet should they have gone in the way of the Church when there was nothing to the contrary much more should they conform in this which had that reason in the Analogy of Scripture and therefore this Testimony of the Father need not move us wheresoever we find it for I cannot find it by your direction Give me some better direction to find the following of the Tradition of the Church to be the most true and inviolable Rule of Truth reduplicatively namely upon its own account and in things necessary then I shall say more or yield He holdeth therefore you say the Tradition of the Church so infallible that it may be a ground of Faith Here are two things to be said First that he holdeth so of Tradition which by other Testimonies is to be proved Since Secondly he doth not hold it therefore of Tradition since these words of Saint Austin doe not draw after them the nature of Tradition in your sence which doth not depend upon the written Word as this doth for the reason of it And you believe Saint Paul taught him so in his second Epistle to the Thessalonians 2.15 Hold the Traditions which you have been taught whether by word or by our Epistle To this we answer premising the state of the Question whether Doctrine of Faith not depending upon the word written do oblige Faith equally to Scripture Now we say that these Traditions might respect Order and Ceremony or History and so comes not within compass of the Question in regard of the matter Secondly Though it will not please Estius upon the place yet nothing hinders but that it might be meant of the same matter which was first preached then written and then should hold it or them as first preached then written and this is a second answer in the place doth come into our question in respect of the matter for the Syriack renders it Mandats Commandements which do not signifie formally matters of Faith Thirdly The Thessalonians might be sure that what they had from him by word was such as they should believe equally to what was written but so cannot we be of your Doctrines of Faith which you say are handed from Generation to Generation Make us as sure of them in regard of Divine Inspiration and communication to us then urge our Obedience equal And this will give you an account of Saint Chrysostome upon the place who meaneth no otherwise then that which they had from God by him whether in word or writing they should hold which they could beleeve we can not for such Traditions having nâ—t that certainty of them Read the whole of him upon that Text and also do not passe by the Observation of this modesty herein we may think it worthy of beleef namely the Tradition of the Church which whether he means it of things of Discipline and order wherein we deny not conformity to the Church we are not sure of but there come not up to our Question for they are not of Faith and do not equally oblige And hitherto now you have gone about to assure Christians of a necessity of an infallible Judge now in your 17. Paragr you will assume that the Catholique Church is the Judge Then the Roman to be the Catholique prudently The text you name for the Catholick Church is that of Saint Matthew in his 16 Chap. the 18 Verse I say unto thee thou art Peter that is to S. Peter by name thou art Peter that is thou art a rock and upon this rock will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it c. And now surely you are at your strong hold which you think cannot be undermined or stormed true if your application of it were as sure as it But we are not careful to answer you in this assault First we deny your interpretation of the name of Peter you interpret the Greek that is a rock it is denied the Greek word doth not ordinarily and not here signifie a rock And if you will not believe me take this argument Cephas signifieth a stone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Petrus signifieth as Cephas therefore a stone Both propositions you have proved as you may see in S. John 1.42 43. as in the Syriack Thou shalt be called Cephas that is a stone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as in the Greek which is interpreted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a stone And because Cephas is known in Siriack to signifie a stone therefore the Syriack doth not add these words which is interpreted and that Petrus signifieth as Cephas you have there for Cephas is interpreted by Petrus therefore your interpretation is not right Secondly If you say as you did before that the Hebrew was the Original of Saint Matthew's Gospel then are you not nearly obliged to the Syriack which is but a dialect thereof nay likely the very Dialect of Hebrew wherein it was first written if not in Greek and then not onely can you not interpret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A Rock but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neither and then you cannot render the following words as you do And upon this Rock c. For the words in the Syriack are letter for letter the same both the name of the Apostles and the word which you render a Rock are the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 both and therefore if you will stand to the Syriack it will come to this Thou art a stone and upon this stone will I build my Church And this will have fair Correspondence with that of Saint Paul in the same Metaphor Ephes 2.20 Built upon the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone So that the priviledge of Saint Peter here was onely this to lay as it were the first stone in this Foundation Nay thirdly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the New Testament more then once signifieth a stone Rom. 9. last it is synonymically joyned there with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is joyned also to the same Metaphor in that it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for this must signifie a
arising from time to time and who can hear Me and You and be heard by Me and You that neither I nor you can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we doubt we can propose our doubt and she will tell us clearly her meaning whereas the Bible c. cannot do so This hath in it somewhat new your discourse in brief may be under this forme That which can hear you and me and be heard by you and me and resolve doubts of its meaning is the Judge the Church can do thus the Scripture not therefore the Church is the Judge and not the Scripture We easily answer If you understand the proposition of a formall Judge so we grant it and do not say the Scripture is the Judge but if you mean it so that nothing can be in any Kind a Judge but that which doth so we deny it and your assumption too for the Law is in its kind the Judge and so may the Scripture be as I have shewed before in this paper And unless the Ecclesiastick Judges whereof we do not reject a lawfull and good use doe rightly declare Scripture in the application of it to particular Causes wherein the authority of the Church as some of your men will sometimes say doth consist I cannot possibly hold my self bound in Conscience to yield my judgement therunto So then secondly unlesse you put into the premisses that that which heareth you and me and is heard by you and me is the infallible Judge and then that the Church doth so your discourse is peccant in the ignorance of the Elench for so we grant all as to the Church for this may stand with our cause but if you do put in infallibility we deny both the one and the other Preposition Thirdly by this Argument you exclude Tradition from being the Judge for doth that hear you and me Is that heard by you and me but you say the Church doth determine hereby then may it determine by Scripture more securely and more universally Fourthly is not the Heretique Saint Paul speaks of in his third chapter to Titus the 10.11 verses 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 condemned by himself or of himself how that not by principles of natural Knowledge for Theologie is supernatural and therefore needed a Revelation of it from God you know not by a Revelation immediate Extra Scripturam for then how should he be condemned of himself Not by any definition of the Church which was not then sufficiently formed thereunto no nor yet by Titus because then as before he had not been condemned by himself then he was condemned by himself because he had in him the Principles of the Word of God which he gainsaid by his contrary Error So that it remains he was condemned by the Law of God And therefore that can judge you and me not externally and by voice but internally by vertue of Conscience which can and does and should apply the truths of God to the censure and condemning of Errors in us so that this Scripture it is or the Word of God which passeth Sentence in the interiour judgement as you speak and this absolves some who in the outward Courts are condemned and condemneth some who in the outward Court are not condemned And therefore it is not only lawful but necessary for us sometimes to dissent in our judgement because they may erre in their dijudication And as much your own reason suggests in your 21. Number wherein you acknowledge it to be necessary that there should be infallibilitie in the Judge of faith And then you would state or estate this infallibility of the Church of Christ thus that a Pope defining with a Lawful Generall Councill cannot erre For it is no necessary article of faith to believe that the Pope or Head of the Church cannot Erre when he defineth without a Generall Councill So you Alas Sir what Cautions do you stand in need of in this grand and capital and Comprehensive Controversie which affords me Liberty to think that that is not the ground of Catholique Faith which is intricated with so many windings and guarded with such accurateness of Cautions that render it very suspicious and therefore not to be plain and a direct way so that fools cannot erre for who can be certain by a Divine Faith of the Lawfullness and regularitie of your Pope in his Creation and when there was Pope against Pope who of the people could distinguish the right And this is now possible because then in facto And who then could decide the question for the infallible judge you say is your Pope with a Council Which of them could then determine it and in his own cause Or could your Council determine it without a Pope but I hope your infallible determination could not be without the Head of the Church And who according to your Doctrine should call the Council for you say that power is vested in the Pope Well suppose no doubt of the legalitie of the Pope how shall we by a Divine faith come to be assured of the lawfulness and Generality of a Councill for you know Ecclesiastical History is full of instances of Councils which were called by the Emperours and not by Popes to whom you say it doth of due belong to call Councils else they are not lawful And how shall we know whether every one of the Council hath a free Election to it and a free decisive vote in it How much of faction may be looked for in a Councill when there is so much in the Election of a Pope such exclusions such bandyings What Council was ever called by a Pope wherein Religion was not made to serve his interest Is not he who hath power of preferring like to domineer in such Consultations And how shall ignorant souls be divinely perswaded that the Council i◠General If it be easie to discern it then had your Tren◠Council great infelicity to be so contradicted by the French Catholiques And how many Bishops in the Trent Council furnished with a Title to overpower them with Votes on the Popes behalf So that he answered well who said about the question which is superiour a Pope or a Council a Pope was like to have the more voyces because he could confer Bishopricks a Council not What clue can a collier have infallibly to guide him through all those Labyrinths Secondly If the infallible Judge of Faith be the Pope with a lawful General Council how was the Church provided for when for so many years there was neither Pope in your sense nor any Council Thirdly If the Pope and the Council do differ about a Question what shall be done in that case yet if the Question be which is superiour to the other the Pope or the Council what shall be joyntly agreed and is not this a main question between the Sorbonists and others Fourthly If the Pope with a lawful General Council be the infallible Judge then how will this be reconciled
that the invisible Church shall not perish which is true although the visible Church be under a possibilitie to erre since every errour is not destructive of salvation In the 25. Number you tell me what you have said before but that you have given me some additional Testimonies in the supplement of the last which have their answer without repetition Onely you no where I think find that Saint Jerome did receive all those books which you receive for Canonical and for those Authours which held the Consubstantiality of the Son and those several properties of the Holy Trinity you will give me leave with judicious men to suspect Eusebius Beleeve your Cardinal herein Bellarmin in his De Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis p. 94.5 6. where he brings the attestation of Saint Athanasius and Saint Jerome to the same purpose and Saint Jerome calls him not onely an Arrian but the Prince of the Arrians sometimes sometimes the Ensign-bearer Yea the 7. Synod he sayes and the Apostolical Legats rejected his authority as being an Arrian Heretique as he saies And as for Austins expression that the relying on the Church's authority is the most true and inviolable Rule of Faith you refer it to your 16. Number and there referre me to the 13. chapter of the first book Contra Cresconium which I cannot see there If it should be so disertly yet this must be understood respectively to those cases wherein the Scripture doth not clearly passe the Verdict in which the authority of the Church is the best rule we can then have as towards practice But this in his Opinion doth not absolutely leave us to follow Tradition of the Church in points of Faith unlesse he contradicts himself as you shall see at the end But you are afraid of want of Number to make noise because you say I said you had no other Testimony but Saint Austins I did not say that you had none but his absolutely but you had none but his that I could see of those you produced Neither him indeed if you please to tell us what you see Therefore we shall look over your reinforcing his and the main testimony for your cause in my answer whereunto I see yet no place for amendments or abatement I said if you consider the whole tenâ—â—r of the chapter you may be inclined to think that it came from him in some heat of dispute and methinks I may think so still Your men are wont to answer evidences of the Fathers which are against them when they please that such passages came from them not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and surely we may have that liberty when there is such occasion given for us to interpret them as here if we consider how he was displeased with himself for a former respect to that Epistle and also if we take notice of his short returns of discourse in this Epistle and also if we mark his check and correcting and taking up himself towards the end of the chapter with an absit Sed absit ut ego Evangelio non credam And if this answer doth not weigh with you then I gave you another that this might be spoken of himself not in sensu composito as then but in sensu diviso as in order to that time when he was a Manichee himself To which purpose I told you it was familiar to him and other writers of that part of the world to expresse a tense more then past by the imperfect and the sense is that when he was a Manichee he would not have believed the Gospel but that the authority of the Church had moved him to it One place of this usage I found to be in a chapter you quoted in his De Predestinatione Sanct. lib. 2. cap. 1. s 14. Qui igitur opus est ut eorum ferutemur opuscula qui priusquam ista haresis â—riretur non habuerunt necessitatem in hâc difficili ad solvendum quastione versari quod procul dubio facerem si respondere talibus cogerentur where you have the Imperfect Tense for the Tense more past facerent for fecissent and so the other So in his first Book of Retract cap. 51. Profecto non dixissem si jam â—uns essem literis Sucris ita eruditus ut recolerem where you have essem for fuissem and so the other And also by the way let me observe somewhat from those two places towards the main question besides the use of them in the way of Criticisme For by the former you have the reason why the Tradition of the Church in Doctrines received will not make an end of our differences since the questions were not then started and also by the second you may observe that we cannot swallow all that was said by Saint Austin without chewing since he sayes himself that had he been so well instructed he would not have said this and that And indeed his books of Retractations are books against you and do conclude wholly that we are not to take whatsoever the Fathers wrote to be as true as Gospel Yea some such books of Retractations all of them might have made as some think Origen did although they are perished as to us But the answers which I gave you to that passage of Saint Austin will not content you Therefore you endevour to shew at large that they will not serve You say unlesse he will stand to that ground he must needs seem to say nothing against his Adversary What ground do you mean VVhat that he was moved by the Churches Infallible Authority as you would conclude at every turn No supposing him not to speak in aestu Sermonis yet what he said against his Adversary was reasonable without urging the Infallible authority For the consent of the Church might be considered by him as a condition towards the reception of any doctrine and yet not to be that which he built his Faith upon as upon an Infallible ground You may know the Causa sine qua non is not a cause although such a thing be not without it yet is not this the cause thereof And therefore make what you can of the place it will not afford you a firm foundation if his authority could do it You say that this is his first argument to shew that his Adversary by citing Texts out of the Gospel to prove Manichaeus a true Apostle could prove nothing against those who as yet have not believed the Gospel So you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and what then Because the Adversary can prove nothing by Scripture to those that deny it therefore Saint Austin must infer that the authority of the Church is infallible and he must believe the Gospel upon no other ground VVhat consequence is this as if because Saint Austins adversary cared not for the judgement of the Church therefore we must be guilty of that which is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which hath so much wronged the Church as nothing more This
if one be sufficient why the other if both be necessarie then either is not sufficient So then if the Scripture be the most sufficient ground of Faith when it be known to be the Word of God and the sense of it then I have contradicted you and you have contradicted your self For I say as you say that it is most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith And two sufficients there are not in the same kind Yes you say but first the Scripture must be known by infallible authoritie to be the Word of God Well but we both beleeve that the Scripture is the Word of God and by infallible authoritie we do beleive the Scripture to be the Word of God because we do believe it by the authoritie of it self which you say is infallible And if you believe it by infallible authoritie of the Church as you think you must go to Scripture for this authoritie then is not the Church a sufficient ground because it needs the Scripture to prove the Church and confirm its authoritie And therefore my concluding was contradictorie since your supposition of two sufficient grounds is false Well and how shall we know evidentlie whether this is the sense of Scripture By the authoritie of the Church you say And why then do they not by their authoritie evidentlie deliver unto us the sense of Scripture in everie difficultie If it cannot it is insufficient if it will not it is uncharitable and besides you fall into the same danger again For where hath it this authoritie by the Scripture then the Scripture is the sufficient ground again and this not And when the Church in a Council doth decide a controversie best it doth so by principles of Scripture applying them to particular cases and the determinations of the Church have themselves to the Scripture but as conclusions and the Scripture hath it self to those conclusions as the principle And therefore properlie the principles are believed and the conclusions are credible not by themselves but by participation from the Principles So that as the prime Principles are the ground of all Science so are the Principles of Scripture the ground of all Faith And the first Principle in Theologie must be this that the Scripture is the Word of God and so the ground of Faith And if the Church be not subordinate it is opposite to Scripture as the first Principle and so stands by it self and must fall to the ground And if you say it is not necessarie to umpire all doubts then you say as we say and why then an infallible Judge And forasmuch as we doe believe the Scripture to be the Word of God why do you contend because we do not believe it as you believe it but if you intend your Treatise in charitie you might have spared your labour For we are in a surer condition then you can be upon your Principles You believe the Scripture by the authoritie of the Church and we believe it by that by which the Church hath its authoritie So that the Scripture is not onely the first ground in regard of Order but also of Causalitie because the Church hath no ground but by Scripture Therefore we like your intention better then your judgement Neither do we denie the moment of the authoritie of the Catholick Church towards Faith so that we have all the authoritie of Heaven and Earth for our belief And if there were a doubt and in us a possibilitie of errour by apprehension that we cannot be assured of the Scripture to be the Word of God by the Church yet our errour would not be so dangerous because we should erre in honour of Scripture as yours is or would be who erre in honour of the Church Also must I observe your ingenuitie again here that you do profess it as most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith when we know by infallible authoritie that it is the Word of God and that such and such is the sense thereof If there be degrees of Truth and sufficiencie then are we more secure if degrees of Truth and sufficiencie to us then are we yet more right And also this doth deduct from your universalitie of faith in your first paper by the proposal of the Church in all things For my second third and fourth and fifth answer the Paragraphs of your Discourse or Treatise have in them nothing whith hath any potential contrarietie to them which I have not fully as I think taken away In your Application you make to or against my sixth answer you seem to take another argument to perswade me that the Scripture and the Church may both be grounds of Faith It is by way of interrogation Can I not say you ground my Faith upon what Saint Peter saith because I can ground it upon that which Saint Paul saith We answer your question is out of question but your consequence from thence is unsolid and unjudicious because they were both inspired in their Doctrine but it is yet again in question whether the Church be infalliblie inspired and we can be infalliblie assured thereof the reason being not the same your reasoning sinks Yet you insist further Why is the Scripture the rule of Faith Because it delivereth to me Gods written VVord but the Church delivereth to me Gods VVord written and unwritten I may therefore rule my self by that So you I answer This argument hath no strength to weaken that which I laid down before that there are not two sufficicient grounds of Faith because the Church is but a Ministerial rule and subordinate to Scripture and so subordinately a rule as to that VVord of God which is written and therefore can it not ground or order my Faith by its own Vertue but onely by proportion to Scripture and so is not a rule equal to Scripture intensively And if you conceive your argument should have any force because the Church doth exceed the Scripture extensively in that it delivereth the VVord written and unwritten Surely you are much mistaken by your supposition that there is a VVord of God not written in points of Faith equally credible to that which is written It is to be proved not supposed Your reasoning rather hath force against your self The Church is not a rule infallible because it delivereth to us a VVord of God not written for herein it mainly erres The Scripture is not onely a necessarie rule but also sufficient most sufficient And therefore they bring in tradition by way of supplement you say it is a sufficient rule in that you say it is a sufficicient ground of Faith therefore must you expunge tradition This rule of Scripture you say is often so crookedly applied that we had need of better securitie of interpretation then our own judgement of discretion So you First this is accidental to the rule and therefore it doth not infringe its prerogative Secondly by this Argument if you drive it to
the not being a rule upon this account the traditions and the testimonies of the Fathers cannot be a rule because they have been abused Thirdly We do not intend the use of the judgement of discretion to rest in that upon an interpretation nor do we oppose it to the authoritie of the Church but we say this must be satisfied in Articles and matters of Faith notwithstanding the decisions of the Church by consonance thereof to Scripture otherwise it cannot give the assent of Divine Faith Every one must be perswaded in his own mind although he doth not make his own sense This private judgement should neither be blind nor heady it respects authoritie but joyneth only with appearance of the Word of God That which you say to the seventh answer was examined before That which you say to the eighth answer will not serve to save you from differing from your self which indeed if it were in way of retractation would not be reprehensible as Saint Austin speaks in the Preface of his Retractations Neque enim nisi imprudens c. for neither will any but an unwise man reprehend me because I reprehend my errours But if you have a mind to see the difference betwixt you and you you may thus Before you said that the ground of believing is the authoritie of the Church since you have said in your second paper that it is the authoritie of God revealing If there be no difference why do you not keep your terms as a Disputant should do But you say your reply is exceeding easie the ground of our faith is God revealing and God revealing by his Church as he first causeth our first belief when he tells us by his Church such and such books are infallibly his word So you Now then if you make the authoritie of God revealing to be the ground and cause of faith then it is not the authoritie of the Church because although God doth reveal by his Church yet is not the authoritie of the Church the ground of faith but Gods authoritie for the Church is but as a Messenger or Ambassadour which we do not believe for himself but for his Letters of Credence from his Master and so is it the authoritie of Gods revealing which is the ground of faith And this is made out by that you say to compound your variance You say the ground of our faith is God revealing and Gods revealing by his Church as he first causeth our first belief when he tells us by his Church such and such books are infallibly his word then the authoritie is his whereby we believe and not the authoritie of the Church which is but Miniâ—terial And by your own argument are you undone for if the Church be the ground of faith and not the Scripture because by the Church we believe such and such books to be Canonical as you have said before and also here below in this Reply to my eight Answer then also the Authoritie of the Church is not the ground of faith because we must first believe Gods authoritie revealing it to his Church before we believe the Church But also to take notice of that Argument of yours here it is false For we must first believe the authoritie of Scripture before we can believe any authoritie of the Church For the Church as such hath all from Scripture as I have shewed And therefore by your own argument are you undone again for if that be the ground of faith which is first then the Scripture not the Church and therefore the Church may be disputed not the Scripture which we do understand by way of Intelligence through a supernatural light and cannot demonstrate as we may the Church by principles of Scripture Again you seem to differ from your self because now you hold that the Church is the ground of our faith in all particulars causally because by it we believe the Scripture but before the faith of a Catholick which you mean generally must consist in submitting his understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it so your first paper in terminis terminantibus But now when we believe the Scripture by the Church we may believe that which is plain in it by it self because it saith it not because the Church saith it Do not you now somewhat yield not to me but to truth Truth will be too hard for any one that hath not committed the sin against the Holy Ghost and yet also will it be too hard for him though he denies it Consider then what you have said and what you think and judge how the Masters of your Church will answer it at Gods Tribunal for that everlasting cheating of simple souls with the mysterie of implicite faith And that also which you so much repeat that we must receive Canonical books by the Infallible authoritie of the Church is not yet grown beyond the height of a postulate It hath been often denied you upon necessitie and it did not obtain it seems universally in the practice of the Church or else some of your Apocriphal books were not accounted Canonical for Cyrill of Jerusalem in his fourth Catechese where he speaks in part of the Scriptures he accounts not in the number the Maccabees you spoke of nor some others Yea for the reception of books Canonical Saint Jerome gives another reason of embracing but four Gospels in his Preface upon the Comment upon Saint Matthew not because the Church owned no more as you would have Saint Austin to be understood but he doth prove that there are but four by compare of that of Ezekiel with that of the Apocalypse about the foure beasts which doe represent as he interprets their meaning the four Evangelists You go on and say God revealing is alwayes the formall Object of faith Before every thing was to be believed as proposed by the Church because she proposeth it so that the formal Object of things to be believed was as proposed by the Church under that consideration But sometimes God revealeth his mind by Scripture sometimes by the Church as he did two thousand years and more before the Scriptures were written So you Well then now he reveales himself by Scripture contradistinctly to the Church as well as by the Church contradistinctly to Scripture which you put in one behalf of your unwritten word So then we may believe him immediately by Scripture but whether we can believe him immediately by tradition without Scripture wants conviction Neither doe you exhibit a reason of this Opinion by that which follows that for two thousand years and upwards before the Scriptures were written he revealed himself by the Church This as before is not enough to sustain traditional Doctrine because the Scripture in the substance of it was before it was written but you cannot evince that the word not written is as certain to us as the word before it was written was unto them And the Reason may be taken from
Crimen falsi for I do not see upon the place any half Syllables out of which you may draw any such interpretative Confession I have often upon your occasion said the contrary that the authority of the Church cannot be the cause of faith And therefore whether you have any faith of the Articles of Religion or of Scripture in all your Church is more easie to be found then said And assuredly though we talk of faith in the world the greatest part of it is but opinion which takes religion upon the credit of man and not of Scripture And as for us we have also the authority of the Church Catholick to move our judgement and Scripture to settle our faith And we are more related to the foure General Councils in consanguinitie of Doctrine as he said then your Church now And now at the end of all you doe fairly rebate the edge of your censure of my Expression namely Excesse of Faith But you say my distinction doth no way salve the improprietie of my Speech For there is still a difference in more believing Objects and believing more Objects But granting that it may be improperly spoken yet even in that sense it is not truely said because there can be no Excesse of Faith in believing that which God hath said So then by my Distinctions which is your School of Fides Subjectiva fides Objectiva fides Qua fides Quae there may be an Excesse of Faith in the Object if we beleive more then God hath said supposing we can believe what God hath not said although there be not an excess of faith in the Subject for we cannot have too much faith in that which is to be believed But the quarrel against the speech was not becacause it was not proper enough and congruous in this Discourse but because of the Application of it to you as it now appears and therefore here would you vindicate the Church in this upon the same ground of infallibilitie and therefore for your Faith in whatsoever you believe you have this Warrant Thus saith the Lord. But since this infallibilitie of yours you cannot have without begging of the question even to the last nor shall have it surely by begging you are yet to finde out some Expedience of Means or Arguments how to preserve your selves from that just charge of Excesse of Faith and the chief of that kind is that you speak of your infallibilitie for which you have not Thus saith the Lord. How then do you prove it by Tradition And how do you prove Tradition by the infallibility of the Church Therefore go not to Faith about by a circumference If you have a desire to rest your judgement and your soul in certain infallibilitie by your own word then center in Scripture from which all Lines of Truth are drawn and dismisse Tradition as your men state it for which this infallibilitie was devised and yet cannot be maintained for it cannot maintain it self You close with a passage of Saint Austin If so the words you intend it to set out your Charity to the Church of Christ not to perswade my Faith in its infallibilitie I may love the Church without infallibility because though I doe not love Errour yet must I love the Church when it is in Errour And this gives you occasion to think well of this respective and full answer to your last Paper Excuse me that it was so long ere it came and yet not much above the space of yours and also so long now it is come Onely let me leave you with a Father or two in whose company you are delighted Tertullian in his Prescript cap. 8. We have no need of Curiositie after Christ nor further Inquisition after the Gospell When we believe we desire to believe nothing beyond For this we first believe that there is not any thing beyond which we ought to believe Again against Hermog cap. 22. I adore the plenitude of Scripture And a little after Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis Officina If it be not written let him fear that woe appointed for those who adde or take away And Saint Austin in his 2. book De Doc. Christiana cap. 9. In iis enim quae aperte in Scriptura posita sunt Amongst those things which are plainly laid down in Scripture are found all those things which contain Faith and Manners of Living to wit Hope and Charitie For the excellent modification of Scripture in the 6. chapter Magnifice igitur salubriter Sp. Sanctus ita Scripturas Sanitas modificavit ut locis apertioribus fami occurreret obscurioribus autem fastidia detergeret Nihil enim fere de illis obscuritatibus eruitur quod non planissime dictum alibi reperiatur And the same in the 7. chapter for the second Degree or step to Wisedome He saith Deinde opus est mitescere Pietate neque Contradicere Divinae Scripturae sive intellectae si aliqua vitia nostra percutit sive non intellectae quasi nos melius sapere meliusque percipere possimus sed cogitare potius credere id esse melius verius quod ibi scriptum est etiamsi lateat quam id quod nos per nos met-ipsos sapere possumus And again Saint Austin contra Literas Petit. Lib. 3. cap. 6. Proinde sive de Christo sive de ejus Ecclesia sive de quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram non dicam nos nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit Licet si nos sed omnino quod secutus adjecit Si Angelus de Coelo vobis annuntiaverit praeterquam quod in Scripturis legalibus Evangelicis accepistis Anathema sit Consider what is said and the Lord give you understanding in all things To the Reader How in these times in which there be so many Religions the true Religion may certainly be found out 1. A Satisfactory Answer to this Title will alone put an end to the endless controversies of these dayes This made me think my labour well bestowed in treating this point somewhat largely And because that Treatise hath received a very large answer the examining of this answer will make the Truth yet more apparent That this may be done more clearly I will briefly tell you the Order I intend to observe in the examination of the said answer And because this answer directly followeth the same Order which I observed in treating the question prefixed in my Title Therefore when I have shewed you the Order of that Treatise you will clearly see that I shall most orderly answer the Reply against it 2. That Treatise had a short Preface to tell the intent of it My first Chapter must then be the Examination of what is said against this Preface Again that Treatise did shew five things First it did shew the necessity of a Judge to whom all are bound to submit Secondly That Scripture alone did not suffice to decide all necessary Controversies without a living Judge to
the 17. Numb Thirdly that this Judge could be no other then the true Church to the 21. Numb Fourthly that the true Church is infallible in her judging points of Faith to the 17. Numb Fifthly That this true Church which is our infallible Judge is the Roman Church to 29 and last Numb Lastly followed the Conclusion My answer therefore must have five more chapters to shew the Reply made against that Treatise to be unsatisfactory in every particular argument opposed against me in all these five points 3. There might have been added another chapter to examine what my adversary saith concerning the Conclusion of my Treatise But as he himself Page 112. observeth very well he might have spared his Reply against my Conclusion because it containeth no new thing appertaining to the main Controversie but it was made onely to shew that in the handling of the main Controversie I had answered all his paper which I did there run over in order And therefore in his answers to all I had said about the main Controversie he had given up his answers to all that which is onely run over again in the conclusion Neither know I any reason that I gave him to fansie as he saith he doth that I should either think a good cause wanting to him or him wanting to a good cause unlesse he had answered my Conclusion apart though something were in it not said before by me and some few things in which I charge him But Sir that which I stand upon is the main question and the proof or disproof of it Nor will I judge so hardly of you as to think you will conceive either my cause worse or me a worse defender of it because I tire not my self and my Reader with our personal debates when they concern not the main question in which both of us have been so large And so as you thought you might have ended when you came to that conclusion so I think I may well end when I have answered those hundred Pages and more which I met with before I come thither though there still remained something which concerned our private debates For if that which hath been said before doth not satisfie no great satisfaction will be added by going on a little further in the same strain in matters lesse to the matter The first CHAPTER The Answer to my Preface Confuted 1. YOur first words intimate that you fear least your silence should make me seem to my self or others to have got the Victory Sir your Reply is most welcome in this respect that it doth more help me then your silence could not to seem to have got but really to get that Victory which I desire not to my selfe but to truth For the examination of your Reply will serve for a Touch-stone to my Arguments I will follow you as you desire step after step and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. To shew the necessity of treating the matter I had undertaken I said that such a manner of reading the Scripture as is permitted by you to all sorts of people with so unlimited a Licence to interpret them according to their own private judgement of discretion as a thing most apt to cause a numberlesse number of Sects and Heresies A priori this is proved thus You permit any Artificer who can read to take the Bible into his hand and to take it for his sole and onely Iudge of all necessary Controversies And though all the force and efficacy of the words of Scripture consist in the true sence and sincere Interpretation of it yet when all comes to all you leave this Interpretation to be made by every Reader though never so unskilful with so great Latitude that though a General Council of the greatest Doctors which could be gathered together should have defined such and such a point for undoubted true Doctrine and to be held so according to Scripture yet you permit any Cobler to make a Review of this Decree and if he hearing all that can be said on the one side and on the other judgeth at last that the whole Councel hath erred in interpreting Scripture you leave him free to hold himself so strongly to his own interpretation as if it were the true sence of Gods Word neither will you hear of any Obligation which he hath interiorly to submit his judgement which is the seat of true faith or errour to any other Iudge upon earth For surely if he be left by your Principles so free in the choice of his interpretation of Scripture as not to be obliged to submit interiorly to a whole General Council he hath far greater freedom in not being obliged to submit to any other private Doctours Is not this to leave men in a mighty hazard of misunderstanding Gods Word and falling into Heresie Secondly the same is proved a posteriori in those places where the sacred Scriptures are thus prostituted not only to the bare reading but also to the interpretation of every profane and ignorant fellow I still mean when he shall have heard or seen what can be alledged on all sides there and onely there Sects have multiplied and do multiply beyond measure 3. Neither do any of your arguments prove this not to be the true cause of Heresies and bad life which followeth Heresie First it is so far from being contrary to that Text You erre not knowing the Scripture that it is most agreeable to it For a most fit way to erre against the knowledge of Scripture is to permit such and a great number of such men to interpret Scriptures as are most fit to erre in the interpretation of them especially being licensed to cross all Antiquity and all the Authority of the Church if these stand in their way And I wonder why you call this your manner of proceeding The knowledge of Scripture If the works of these famous Physitions Galen and Hipocrates were thrust into all Trades-mens hands and every one of them were licensed to interpret as they sincerely thought best would you call this The knowledge of Physick especially if every one might be permitted to hold his interpretation against a General Assembly of most learned Physitians Secondly you in vain object that of Saint Paul That the Scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation Far was it from the intention of Saint Paul to speak of the Scriptures interpreted by every giddy fansie for thus they may be the occasion of our damnation Saint Paul said they were able to make Timothie wise to salvation because he was a man who did continue in the things which he learned and had been assured of to wit by the Oral tradition of the Doctours of the Church A man knowing of whom he had learned these things and these traditions Let such men read Scriptures and let them with such interpretations understand them and they will make them wise to salvation and to continue still assured of the Doctrine of the Church and never to
the world Good Sir in what year of our Lord was it that I did say that this was certainly trueâ— Did not I say so this very last year which was above twelve hundred years since Saint Jeroms time If there were one Hebrew copy then what is that to our purpose now Can we go and confer our Translations of Saint Matthew and see how far they agree with that Original copy which St. Jerom in his dayes did see in one only place of the world Shew me so much as one Hebrew copy now extant in the whole world of sufficient credit to ground an infallible assent If after more then a thousand years loss of all Original copies Munster or any other private man obtrude us an Hebrew Original which hath lain all this while God knowes where by what Evidence will that appear Gods infallible and uncorrupted Word All your shifts will not here help you 48. You would shift first by asking how the Latine Interpretation came to be Authentique I Answer Because it was accepted for authentique and thus declared to be so by the Church which Church when she admitted it was fully satisfied that it agreed with the Original And this she knew by Tradition from the Church of former Ages This Tradition doth not certifie you because you hold it fallible And therefore most certainly I certifie you that you will never believe Saint Matthewes Gospel with an infallible assent until you believe the Church infallible in her traditions Your second shift is this Gospel might possibly at the first be written in Greek Good Sir tell me whether onely possibilities grounded upon conjectures be sufficient to ground an infallible assent And here give me leave by the way to shew you once more the evident unevidence which is in that light by which you see Saint Lukes Gospel for example to be Gods true word and so of all other Scriptures The Greek Copy of Saint Luke you see as evidently as the Sun to be Gods true Word by reading of it and yet this great Evidence is so little different from that Evident inevidence which you call a Possibilitie that Saint Matthews Greek Copy is Gods true and uncorrupted Word that you cannot see with your irradiated understanding whether this inevidence be not to the full as good as that Evidence and that it may not as well ground an infallible assent as that Again how come you to hold it a meer Possibility that Saint Matthews Gospel was written in Greek for if the Greek Text of Saint Matthew be as truly Original as that of Saint Luke your irradiated understanding must needs by its Light see it to be Gods Word as well as you see the Sun by its Light why then do you venture no further then to esteem it a possibilitie Is it a mere possibilitie that St. Lukes Gospel is Gods uncorrupted word Now let us see how slender your Conjecture is though I confess it to be better in my judgement then the light manifesting to you infallibly the truth of Saint Lukes Gospel Let us see I say how slender your Conjecture is to prove that possibly Saint Matthews Gospel might be written first in Greek because the Greek Copy interpreteth the Hebrew word Emmanuel which if it were written in Hebrew needed not any interpretation A pittiful weak Conjecture And this Dart is no sooner raised above your head with weak hand but it falls with a strong hand upon your head again The Greek Copy translateth Hebrew words therefore say you it is no Translation but it is an Original Sir it is manifest that Translations of Scripture usually tell us the Hebrew words first and then the Translation of it So Genesis 31.48 Galaad id est tumulus testis Galaad that is the witnesse heap And Gen. 35.18 Benoni id est filius doloris mei Benjamin id filius dextrae And Exod. 12. Phase id est transitus And Exodus 26. Manhu quod significat quid est hoe By these and divers such places you see how familiarly Translatours tell you the Hebrew word and then the Interpretation of it No prophane mean authoritie would upon so slight a conjecture as this is be rejected and contradicted Much lesse if he made himself an eye-witnesse of what he said Yet you reject Saint Jerom though he saith he did see a copy of the Hebrew Original with his own eyes and you reject him though all the Fathers writings extant stand on his side and this upon a most slender conjecture of your own which would have made another man more wisely conjecture the quite contrary and say this copy Translateth Ergo it is a Translation Whence it evidently appears how little you care either for the single or for the unanimous consent of Eminent Fathers But this being a point onely to bee tried by the Testimony of Antiquitie your Cause is lost without some good Authours can be found for you Your third shift is in place of giving a Solution to make an Objection asking Why our Latine Translation was made Authentique if the Church had made the Greeke Authentique I Answer that I know of no body who told you That the Greeke Translation was made Authentique by the Church Neither Greeke nor Latine can be Authentique but by the Church because the Hebrew Original being lost we cannot know how farre either Greek or Latine Translation agreeth with the Original but by the infallible Tradition of the Church you who reject this cannot know possibly how far translations be Gods uncorrupted word for as you say they are only so far Gods uncorrupted Word as they agree with the Original But you know not how far they agree with the Original Ergo you know not how far they be Gods word Your fourth shift is to pretend to this knowledge by the Harmony with the other Gospels Sir If any man intended to make a supposititious Gospel do you not think he would take care not to contradict the others But what harmony can there be found in these many things related by Saint Matthew and not related at all by any others Yea one of the greatest difficulties against Saint Matthews Gospel is to shew that it exactly agreeth with other Scriptures from the beginning to the ending And to be the briefer I will onely instance in some places of the beginning and ending omitting all the rest In the very first Chapter Saint Matthew tells us that Ioram did beget Ozias And yet out of the fourth Book of Kings which your Bible is pleased to call the Second Book it is manifest that Ioram begat Ochozias C. 8. And that Ochozias did beget Ioas C. 11. And that Ioas begat Amasias C. 12. and this Amasias begat Azarias C. 14. who is called here in Saint Matthew Ozias I ask then how cometh Saint Matthew to say Ioas begat Ozias who was born three Generations after him And being that these three Generations hapned between the time of David and the Captivity of Babylon they beeing added to
us to keep his Commandements 56. You go on as if I found fault with Scripture I only find fault with those who affirm Scripture to have been intended by God for an end to which I shew it never was intended Because if it had been intended by God to teach us clearly all things necessarie to salvation otherwise then by sending us to the Church and by bidding us keep our received Traditions it would have set the things down clearly and distinctly and not have left these points to be picked out one out of one book another out of another no man knoweth directly where yea divers books contained not so much as one of these points which you hold necessarie to salvation especially in plain and clear terms And those books which do contain such points do intermingle so many other lesse necessarie points or points of doubtful necessitie with those which are wholly necessarie without ever telling us of this lesse or greater necessitie that all the whole Bible must be very carefully and very attentively read over which is impossible because divers whole Books of the Bible are lost before a man can come to the infallible knowledge of such points as you will say are necessarie which points you say are but few and the Books of Scripture are many and divers more have been written and quite lost and how can we tell whether all these we have now contain all points necessarie For the most you pretend is that in the whole Canon all points necessarie were delivered we have not the whole Canon but diverse books of it have perished Therefore we have no assurance that the Scripture we have containeth all things necessarie The Scriptures we have make a book so big that the far greater part of the world taken up with so many necessarie affairs cannot in a very long space of time read over this Book with any part of that exactnesse which according to your own Principles must be required to find out which points be necessarie to salvation For to do this they must first read over the whole Canon and yet divers books of it are lost and not to be had how shall they read them Secondly to have assurance that they have read over the whole Canon they must read over such books as we hold to be part of the true Canon to see whether they be so or no and use such diligences as are necessarie for an infallible assurance They must also note most accurately all places which may perhaps clearly deliver a necessarie point when they shall have been conferred with other places which perhaps be at the other end of the Bible or may occur to me when I lesse observe any kind of connexion with what I read before Besides this for fear Translations which are only so farre Gods Word as they agree with the Original should be taken by me for Gods true Word I must consult with the Original and with the true Original of which I cannot get an undoubted copy infallibly secured from corruption Is it likely that God who hath promised us a Way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it would intend to lead us by a way having so many passages open to errour These difficulties shew that God did not intend this Book to be our onely guide His wisedome directs him to the best means to compasse his intention Even our ordinarie wisedom if we had an intention to set forth a writing to end all necessarie Controversies would direct us to set down plainly and clearly in one place all those few as you say points necessarie to be believed When God determined to set down all the Jewish Ceremonies you see how fully particularly and clearly he setteth them down in Leviticus Points of faith necessarie to salvation import incomparably more then points of meer Ceremonie If then God had intended a Book by which only he was resolved to deliver unto us all points necessary to salvation these points as you say being but few he would in some one part of these books have clearly set down these few points a thousand times more importing then the points of Ceremonies Many hold that the Epistles of Saint John were written after his Apocalyps and so by order of time that they were the very last part of the Canon And yet in the very last part of this my last part of the Canon Saint Iohn saith I had many things to write but I will not with inke and pen write them But I trust we shall see thee shortly and we shall speak face to to face No man can say that these many things which St. Iohn had to write were things unnecessarie wherfore many necessary things may not be set down in the Canon And yet the Canon is very compleat in order to its true end and also in order to the ending of all Controversies by sending us to the Church for full instruction as I have shewed And it is apparently false which you say that the Scripture doth give us everie particular point which is necessarie to be believed as I have shewed in this Chapter And whereas you adde secondly That the Scripture giveth also many points not necessary you mark not that the vast number of those points among which here and there we are not assured where the necessarie points are intermingled from the beginning of the Bible to the end is a thing which would make any man far from being fully assured that Gods intention was by this Book alone to decide all Controversies about points onely necessarie which might far more easily for our capacitie have been done in some one Chapter of some one of these Books 57. After this you urge that our Church hath not decided all necessary Controversies Sir Our Doctrine is that the Church can decide any point formerly revealed when any necessity shall require it or the declaration of this point concern our Salvation Salvation hath very securely been had without the decision of those points you speak of If circumstances happen that Salvation cannot be had without their decision they will then be decided If you acknowledge a real necessity to be at all times of the infallible knowledge of those points then by your own principles you are bound to say that they are plainly set down in Scripture And I am sure our Church hath determined that we are obliged to believe all Scripture with an undoubtful beliefe either you must say these points are not necessary and then all your arguments fall of themselves or else you must say these be plainly set down in Scripture and then we are by our Church obliged to believe them with divine faith I adde that our whole Church teacheth the definitions of Councils confirmed to be infallible Submit to this Judge appointed by God who did bid us hear the Church and you shall find her definitions not to leave you ignorant of what is necessary for you to know To cavil at her you will
to shew that all points necessarie be clearly determined according to truth in Scripture you are put upon a necessitie to say that lesse clear Texts suffice to determine this controversie for you though you stifly maintain that more clear Texts are not able to determine against you By which it is apparent how false that Principle is which forceth you to utter these inconsequent consequences By this also you may see that the Contradiction you would find in my words for saying on the one side these Texts are clear and on the other side that this Controversie the Scripture doth not decide doth arise out of my speaking according to your principles For you on the one side say that other Texts which are manifestly lesse clear are clear enough to end the controversies therefore these which are clearer must needs be clear enough for that end And again you say on the other side by these our Texts clearer then yours this Controversie is not clearlie decided Therefore I must consequentlie say that according to you This Controversie the Scripture doth not decide It is according to your Principles that these Texts must be clear because they be clearer then those which you are forced to affirme clear and again you must say they be not clear for fear you should confess them to decide against you Now if these two places be denied to be clear with a clarity sufficient to put an end to the Controversie then according to my principles scarce any Controversie will ever be decided by any Text. And this is most for my turn to shew the necessity of a living Judge whereas afterwards you take occasion to dispute of this Sacrament you do not do it as it should here have been done to the present purpose to wit by alledging more clear Texts to prove that Christs true body is not really in the Sacrament then I alledge to prove that it was really in it For these Texts I do call These Texts I require Without you give me these more clear Texts you will never give me a satisfactorie answer All other things I wave of until I have these clearer Texts The difference of these two hundred interpretations about these four words This is my Body though they be not owned by you yet they make strongly against you in this respect that they shew the Text of Scripture not to have ended but to have occasioned these endlesse differences And consequently they shew this point not to be clear out of Scripture You in vain are busie about other things which are not to the purpose so to entertain your Reader that he may not mark your omitting the main point which was to shew this great Controversie to be clearly decided on your side by Scripture onely Of my 15th Number 60. I go on still pressing other points the belief of which points your self hold necessarie to salvation and yet you cannot shew them evidently taught in Scripture For you cannot produce an evident Text teaching that God the Father is not begotten God the Son is not made but begotten by his Father onely that the Holy Ghost is neither made nor begotten but proceedeth and that both from the Father and the Son And that God the Son is Consubstantial to his Father Your answer to this is most highly unsatisfactorie You say that although the matter of these points be not found in terminis in Scripture yet the sense of them according to equivalence may as well as Transubstantiation To be as clearly set down as Transubstantiation in Scripture is according to your own principles not to be clearly set down at all In your answer you were to shew that these points were clearly set down in Scripture and you answer that they are as clearly set down as a point which is not clearly set down Is this any way satisfactorie Neither is it more satisfactorie if you mean to argue out of our own principles for according to us all points necessarie and this point in particular are not clearly set down in Scripture And to prove this I have laboured all this Chapter So that you neither satisfie according to your own nor our Principles Your second answer is destroyed by your former for whilest in that you professe to hold these Articles and not hold them upon the authoritie of the Church you leave your self no other authoritie upon which you can hold them but onely such Texts of Scripture as are not clear and no more sufficient to ground faith then other places are to ground a belief of Transubstantiation Be such places sufficient 61. For another necessarie point not plainly set down in Scripture I urge Baptisme of children Of my 16th Number which is by no evident Text of Scripture taught us You answer that it is not necessary for the salvation of the children to be baptized And to prove this pernicious doctrine you bring a Text which clearly speaketh onely of men old enough to believe and desire Baptisme For your Text is He that believeth he is then old enough to believe and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not and consequently would positively not be baptized shall be damned This Text you see speaketh nothing of children and whilest it damneth those who would not so much as believe it sheweth it self to speak of those who would not be baptised and these it damneth How doth it then intimate that those who are children and could have onely baptisme in re and not in voto should be saved without Baptisme for which point you bring it and yet of this point it speaketh not at all much lesse doth it speak as clearly as another text speaketh the quite contrary to wit Except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdome of Heaven Jo. 3. v. 5. Hear your own Doctor Tayler in his defence of Episcopacy Sect. 19. P. 100. Baptisme of Infants is of ordinary necessitie to all that ever cried and yet the Church hath founded this Rite Rule upon the Tradition of the Apostles And wise men of whom I hope you are one do easily observe that the Anabaptists can by the same probability of Scripture inforce a necessitie of communicating Infants upon us as we doe of baptizing Infants upon them Therefore a great Master of Geneva in a Book he writ against the Anabaptists was forced to flie to Apostolical traditional Ordination They that deny this Ordinarie necessitie of baptizing Infants are by the just Anathema of the Catholick Church confidently condemned for Heretickes so he This ordinary necessitie of Baptisme to all that ever cried You denie Therefore by the just Anathema of the Catholick Church you are condemned for an Heretick yea you go further then the Pelagian Heresie for they were counted Hereticks See Saint Aust Heresi 88. for saying Although Infants be not baptized they shall possesse an eternal and blessed life though it be out of the Kingdome of God You will admit them
did rely only upon traditions For if they had relied upon any things else in their beliefe their example had bin nothing to his purpose to shew what we should have done when we had only Tradition to rely upon 14. As for arguing about Tradition I went no Further then to shew that the Tradition of the Church testifying her own infallibility in proposing for Gods word that which she delivereth us for Gods Word as worthy of an infallible assent in this point And the examples I bring prove this Now if this point be once assented unto with an infallible assent it draweth by unevitable Consequence the like assent to all other points which by the same authority are testified to be likewise delivered as Gods Word Or else you must be forced to say that it is in our power to assent to this authority as divine in all things it delivers as Gods Word and yet to deny it in some things which it delivers as Gods word which is a plain contradiction Well then if upon this presupposed authority as infallible I believe the Church delivering such and such points by her doctors and teachers which be points never written then it is manifest I believe her in other points then those which were then written so I may with as good reason believe her now upon her own authority testifying other points then those which are written Whence you see all I say holdeth good even in Traditions of proper name which we say are besides that which is written I cannot conclude more opposite to you then with your own words here P. 73. Tradition in matters of faith unwritten is of equall authority to scripture The Traditions we stand upon be matters of faith truly once revealed by our Saviour or his Apostles though this revelation were not written by them Therefore this is of equall authority to Scripture even according to your own words 15 I going on to prove yet further that Christ intended to guide us not by the Scripture only but cheifly by his Church used this argument Neither the Apostles nor their Successors took any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such languages as all or the greater part of them could understand You answer they did take care that the new Testament should be written in Greek Then you being still to prove that Greek was understood by all or the greater part of the world your only proof of this is only out of Tully saying Graeca per totum Orbem leguntur Greek is read though the whole World and so is Virgil in latin But neither the one nor the other is to be understood in a sense making to our purpose for both these sayings are only true thus that the more learned sort of men every where read Greek and Virgil. And these words of Tully being delivered in on Encomiasticall Oration pro Archia may truely be said to be spoken by way of a Notable amplification And either this must be confessed or Scripture denied For it is evident out of Scripture That the Vulgar language of diverse Nations situated even between that place we call Constantinople and the Citty of Antioch in which a man would suppose the Greek language farre more common then in the more Western or any Northern or Southern places yet I say even between those two Cities of Antioch where the same Tully saith Archias was born and studied and Constantinople the Greek tongue was not the Vulgar language of Pontus Cappadocia Asia minor Phrygia Pamphilia all which Nations the Scripture Act. 2. testifieth to have had different languages Within that compasse is also Galatia which Saint Hierome testifieth to have had a language somewhat like those of Trevers If nations so neere Greece had not the Vulgar use of that language but that tongue had so small a compasse even in Asia and some few Eastern parts of Europe all other parts of Europe and whole Africa using Vulgarly other Tongues how short do you fall of proving that Greek was understood by the greater part of the World And if this cannot be proved then I said truly that though the Apostles writ the new Testament in Greek yet they did not take any care to have it communicated to all Nations in such Languages as they could all or the greater part understand For all or the greater part could not understand Greek call here to mind how lowd you use to cry out against us for using our Common prayer in Lattin though Lattin be so common among all well bred people And yet our Cōmon prayer is a thing only offered to God by the Priests who understand what they say for the people But the New Testament contains as you say the only necessary groūd of faith faith necessary to salvation But the falsity of this your saying is convinced by the Apostles taking no care neither read we of any care taken for many yeares after their times to communicate the whole Canon of Scripture to the severall converted Nations in their several tongues I pray name me the time when the Scripture can be first shewed to have bin thus communicated to the people of so severall languages You will sweat for some hundred yeares before you can find this either done or effectually desired to be done They know the tongue could sufficiently deliver Gods Word to the people and that Orall Tradition joyned to dayly profession practise would abundantly suffice for the infallible delivery of Gods Word 16. You move the question how the people should clearly know the true tradition from the false I answer first they could know this better then know true Scripture from false for they could not do that but by knowing first the true Tradition recommending the true Scriptures from the Tradition recommending false Again after Christ they could do this as well and better then their forefathers for many hundreds of years yea for two thousand yea for twice two thousand yeares together Reflect a little upon the efficacy of Tradition joyned with perpetual profession and answerable practice dayly occurring For example The Apostles by onely unwriting Tradition did clearly undeniably teach the baptizing of Children prayer for the faithfull departed This Tradition from hence came to be Professed as true doctrine by all the first Christians and conformably hereunto they in all places baptized their Children in all places they prayed for the faithfull departed Nothing more common then being born every one that is born dieth whence dayly was the practice of baptizing infants and yet more dayly the practice of praying for the dead because they baptize infants but once but they pray often for the same man who is dead Will we suppose these two traditions are called in question concerning the truth of them And let us suppose this to be done as it was done in the last age Learned men looking in Records of their own and all other Countries will find every where Christnings and every where prayers
for the dead all inscriptions of graves all wills and testaments all foundations of pious places will testifie this custome farre more strongly then that of Baptisme yea in no one countrey nor in any one age since Christ untill this last following age did ever any one man deny praying for the dead except Aerius counted for this his opinion an Heretick by St. Austin and by St. Epiphanius as you know very well Hence it is made evidently credible to any learned man that this Tradition of baptizing Infants and much more the Tradition of praying for the dead came to us from the Apostles it not being possible for all true believers in so many severall countries and so many severall ages to agree in the profession and daily practice of this truth without they had received these two things joyntly with their first faith else the novelty and the authors of such a novelty would in some time or some place have been made known to posterity for no one mans worke was it no nor no one hundred mens worke to bring all men every where to any such novelty with so unanimous and no where contradicted consent The Ignorant people will have the truth of these Traditions also made evidently credible unto them by the publick unanimous and universal consent of all antient men and all Ancient Monuments and also the like unanimous affirmation of all learned men of any standing who will all and every where profess themselves assured of it by their Learning and certain knowledge of those Traditions proved in the manner I now said This maketh the matter evidently credible to the ignorant Wherefore they should do most imprudently not to believe that these points came from the Apostles and then supposing that they came from them they should do a damnable sin not to believe them Can any rationall man desire a more rational proceeding How many true believers commended in Scripture cannot give so prudent a reason for what they believed How we proceeding thus escape clearly all Circle I told you the last Chapter Numb 31.32 Now as you must grant that our Church submitted unto as infallible presently by her authority decides all controversies so her Traditions once acknowledged as infallible will decide the points questioned The Scripture never so clear can never decide any one controversie untill it be first acknowledged Thus you see the two things which you here desired to see 17. After this I passed to another quality which the Church hath and the Bible hath not though it be a quality primely necessary to decide all controversies whence it appeareth that God intended not the Bible but the Church to be our judge This quality is that the Church is a living judge who can be informed of all Controversies arising from time to time and who can heare me and you and be heard by me you so manifestly that neither I nor you can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we do doubt we can propose our doubts and she will explicate her meaning Such a living judge as this we must have to put effectually an End to all Controversies that can arise And as for the Bible I have shewed that it doth not decide all points necessary to Salvation the Bible heareth not new Controversies arising as I prove by this clear example An Arrian staâ—â—eth up as really he did and saith that these words of the Scripture These three are one are words added by us to the true Scripture This Controversie and a thousand such like the Bible heareth not the Bible judgeth not for there is not a word of it in all the Bible And though you say you can see true Scripture by its light you shall never get any man to believe that you your selfe do really believe that you see every verse in Scripture by its light No light appeareth so dimm as these words appear to man Three are one Yet besides this light you who reject Church Tradition as fallible you I say have left you no other infallible ground nor any infallible meanes to convince the Arrian untill you hold the Church infallible All other use which you say you make of the Church sufficeth not to ground an infallible assent for when all comes to all you make any private man and consequently every Arrian Cobler as I shewed the last Court of Judicature in giving the finall sentence on which all depends For he must be the last judge who after the Churches judgement must give sentence that she hath or hath not judged against Scripture That you may see my argument is not peccant I will frame both the Premisses and the Conclusion thus Faith being an infallible assent Controversies concerning faith cannot be determined so as to end then effectually but by an infallible living judge who can heare you and me and be heard by you and me But no other then the Church can with any ground be held to be this living judge Therefore She must be held to be this judge I doe not without Reason put in my Premisses the terme of infallible for faith being an infallible assent must needs require an infallible authority to rest upon This Authority she must find in all points to which she is bound to give this assent But she is bound to give this assent to diverse points not proposed clearly in Scripture as I shewed the last Chapter Therefore she is bound to give this assent to diverse of those points onely because they are proposed by the Church to which she could not possibly be bound to give an infallible assent without due assurance of her infallibility 48 You object that the Church Traditions cannot hear you and me I answer that it is the Church who proposeth these Traditions and not the Traditions which are our judge you ask me whither an Heretike be not condemned by himselfe as Saint Paul saith and you interpret his saying so that he must needs be condemned by himselfe for no other reason but because he had in him the principles of the word of God which he gain-said by his contrary error and so he was condemned thereby and therefore that can Judge Sir he is not an Heretike but an infidel who is told by his own Conscience that he gain-saith the Scripture All christians are readier to die then to disbelieve any one saying of the Scripture When St. Paul writ those words the whole Canon of the Scripture was not written and until the whole Canon was written your own Doctors grant the Church to have ben the infallible judge of Controversies And I wonder you should say the Church at the writing of this by St. Paul was not sufficiently formed which the same St. Paul testifieth to have been formed before his conversion accusing himselfe for having above measure persecuted the Church of God And before his conversion the Number of the disciples was multiplied Act. 6. yea Act. 8. Simon Magus was turned Heretick before St. Paul was turned
by his word Sir I pray why is it more blasphemy to say that God speaketh by Christs Church who spoke infallibly by the Church of the law of Nature for two thousand yeares see here Numb 32. And when he then began to speak by Moses and the Scripture to the Jewes he still by his Church spoke to the faithful among the Gentiles and the Jewes might have grounded their faith on that voice for two thousand yeares more And when the writers of the former parts of the new Testament did write what they writ and when St. Paul did write what he writ God did infallibly teach all by the Church and yet these writers thought Scriptures necessary but not necessary for all the ends for which you may think them necessary Again what a slender proofe is this to ground a charge of blasphemy upon so vast a multitude as adhere to the Roman Church There is no need of Scripture if God speaketh by his Church to infallibility Did not God speak to infallibility by the Scriptures teaching that Jesus was the Messias Was it therefore meer blasphemy to account St. John Baptist sent by God to teach the same with infallible assurance Was it therefore neer blasphemy to think that voice was infallible by which God the Father testified the same from Heaven Was it therefore neer blasphemy to account the testimony of miracles ordained to testifie the same thing infallible though Christ calleth it testimonium majus Joanne Joan. 5 Or rather is it not neer blasphemy to say all these testimonies besides Scripture are needless Do you not see that after all the testimonies of God by the Scripture and by the Church that still millions do not believe Why is then one of these testimonies superfluous The Church is not more Enthusiastical now then she was for 4. thousand years before she had all the promises which Christ made her of assistance which should be at least as speciall and full as she ever had before Before she delivered only what she had received by Tradition Now she delivereth what she received by Tradition and by Scripture in interpreting of which according to that sense truly intended by the Holy Ghost the same Holy Ghost doth assist her so that here is no new Revelation claimed to be made to her but an infallible assistance to propose faithfully what was formerly revealed If others claimful assurance by the Spirit in any point let them shew as good promises made to them in particular as are made to the Church and we shalt never account these false Enthusiasts This infallible assistance being promised to the Church by God cānot be voted frō her by the multitude of mis-believers who oppose her tho you set thē all loos to vote against her 25 After all you will have St. Paul call the Church the Pillar and ground of truth with an intention only to set forth the office and not with an intention to set forth the authority of the Church Sir how can you know St. Paul intention but by his words And sure I am that no word could in breif more fully set forth her infallible authority then by declaring her to be the pillar it selfe and the ground of truth When he useth such words as declare this as sufficiently as need to be how know you that he intended not to declare this sufficiently I ask also in any mans apprehension what office of the Church is signified by calling her the ground of truths In which words an assuredly grounded authority will presently appear to be signified O but you know his intention was to signifie the office only of the Church and not her Authority because he meant here to instruct Timothy how to carry himselfe in the Church of God and to this purpose it had been impertinent to speak of her Authority as you think I think it was very pertinent to speak of it even to this purpose For is it not fit that in a Church which is to be held for the publick Oracle of the world the cheif Pastors of this Church especially those who were to be first of all made cheife Pastors should behave themselves so as not to make men believe it improbable that God should assist infallibly such a Church How much do not your multitude only but your greatest Doctors think themselves to say against the infallibility promised to such a Church as ours is in which they see sometimes scandalous Popes scandalous Cardinals scandalous Bishops c. Which though it be a pittiful argument because scandalous men and Solomon the Idolater have been assisted with an infallibility to be Writers of Scripture it selfe yet it is an argument which troubleth weak soules And therefore to take away such scandals it is very convenient that Bishops especially those who were first of all preferred to that office should be blameless continent vigilant sober of good behaviour and that they should have a good report even from the enemies of the Church Also that the Deacons should be grave not double tongued not given to much Wine or covetous These and such like precepts as these were much to the purpose and as so were here given by St. Paul to maintain the credit of such a Church as might seem to all fit to be accounted the Oracle of the World The Pillar and ground of Truth 59 Let us heare how you argue here If the infallibility of the Church were here affirmed then Timothy needed not such instructions to take care how he behaved himself in the Church since infallible assistance is immediate and that which is immediate includes no time for the inspiration nor means of instruction so you A strange Consequence The Church is infallible in defining points in a general Councel Ergo no man needeth instructions for his private good behaviour Was it so for the first two thousand yeares before the Scripture was written Or do we perhaps teach this infallible assistance to be communicated to every one immediatly And how is it true that the assistance which is immediate to the Church assembled in a full Council includes no time for the inspiration nor no means for the instruction Do you think that as soon as all are assembled they are presently all or the greater part to define all things as fast as they are proposed was it so when the Apostles and the Elders of the Church were assembled together in the first Councel though this issued forth their decree with this preface It seemed Good to the Holy Ghost and us Was there no time required for this short Decree No means used before it was made Read those words The Apostles and the Elders coming together to consider of the matter And when there had been much disputing Peter rose up and said There followeth his speech Then St. James made an other speech To what purpose all these speeches and these made after former much disputing if your doctrine be true that neither time nor use of any be to proceed
which is hard to affirme since we cannot see that there is any such necessity for such assistance And by those words such assistance Your last reply sheweth that you meane assistance extended to Infallibility Sir stand to Scripture and shew out of the Text that he promiseth to be with them securing them from all error in the first age and he promiseth not so much for the second or third age Against your reasons we have our reasons bring against my illimited text another text teaching clearly that my Text ought to be limited to a smaller assistance in other ages then was here promised for the first As for the necessity of the people which was the prime reason why Christ gave this infallibility it was greater in ages remoter from Christ you ask why then be our traditions now equally infallible to those of these times I answer that as it is harder to prove now that Christ did such miracles was crucified did rise again then it was presently after these things happened yet all these things be as infallibily true now as they were then and as infallilible so I say of Traditions which for all this doe not lose a sufficient measure of infallible certainty But to go on What if there be no such necessity of such assistance for other ages what Text have you to prove that God must needs give no more then is necessary and cannot promise more and give what he promiseth I know you will say this infallibility in ages after the Scripture was not necessary because the Scriptures alone would serve to decide all controversies Sir did not the Church alone serve to decide all Controversies before the Scripture was written Yes Why then was Scripture thought necessary by you even for this end for which the Church was well provided before Again the old Scripture did it not testifie as much as was necessary that Jesus Christ was the true Messias Yes To what end then was Saint John Baptist sent to testifie this To what end a voyce sent from Heaven to testifie this To what end so many Miracles wrought to testifie this To what end did Christ and his Apostles still further testifie this Mark here how false your judgement is in thinking God will promise just what is necessary and no more Sir in Ages after the first when the Church should grow from a Grain of Mustard-seed to be a Tree of vast extent in such a vast compasse and in progresse of many Ages a world of doubts would rise which Bookes were Scripture which not Which corrupted Scripture which not Which was the undoubted sense of the uncorrupted Scripture which not Why might not Christ for any thing you know by Scripture think this a sufficient Reason to promise an assistance extended to infallibility for other Ages of the Church as well as for the first age Will an authority so assisted to testifie all this infallibly be lesse necessary then so many Authorities to Testifie that Jesus Christ was the true Messias after it was infallibly Testified by true Scripture And all these Testimonies were given to the Jewes as ill as they were disposed How then can you say of the Church of Christ that she for want of this Disposition was deprived of this Assistance in all Ages but the first VVhat you adde of Traditions hath been already Answered See also Number Twelve But what you adde of Scripture having still the same certaintie is apparently false speaking as you speake in Order to assure us For you your selfe confesse that divers Bookes of Scripture as the Apocalyps c. are now held certain which were not held so before Again many and a good many bookes of Scripture are quite lost How know you by Scripture only that no necessary point for practice or beliefe contained in those bookes only did not perish with the bookes themselves And as for the bookes we have you see how uncertain we remain about the true sense of them in highest points Then they had the Apostles themselves or the known Disciples of the Apostles to tell them the meaning of these words This is my Body is this so really or figuratively only These words Baptize all Nations do or do not include Infants To be a Priest or a Bishop was to have power to sacrifice to absolve or was it not Now times make these held for uncertainties whereas by and by you admit that by this promise of Christ the Church is secure from damnable error though not from all simple errors for then no body should be left for God to be withal you admit that which will destroy quite what you said before For before you said Heresie consisted in opposition to clear Scripture whence all those must needs be Hereticks who opposed clear Scripture Therefore all those who held these prime points in which you and we differ with us against you were Hereticks for they held these points which as you say are against clear Scripture But by your own confession Christ had no visible Church baptizing teaching all Nations c. but those who held these prime points in which we and you differ wherefore we must confesse that Christ was with these Opposers of evident Scripture or else you cannot shew with what Members of the Church he was for all these last ages preceding the Reformation Let us go on 30. What kind of assistance Christ promised may be gathered behold a fifth Text out of several words in the 14. chapter of Saint John there verse 15. he saith I will pray the Father and he shall give another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever even the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive And verse 27. The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my Name he shall teach you all things and suggest unto you all things whatsoever I shall say unto you And chap. 16. ver 12. I have yet many things to say unto you How be it when the spirit of Truth is come he will guide you into all Truth I aske now according to these Texts How long is this spirit of Truth to abide with them in their successours For ever saith the Text. Shall he also secure those with whom he for ever abideth from all errour He will guide you into all Truth saith the Text. Give me then leave lesse to regard what you say to the contrary Where there is all Truth there is no errour If you answer there is no Fundamental errour I Reply that all Truth excludes all errour either in points Fundamental or not Fundamental And being you cannot assuredly tell me which points be Fundamental which not which destructive of salvation which not which be curable which are not you must grant me that she is to be believed in all points And fear not to believe her She will guide you into all Truth Therfore you may securely follow her in all herwaies This promise of Christ made equally to the Apostles and
we see with our eyes not onely fools but also most learned men to erre grossely and to follow most contradictorie opinions whilst they professe from their hearts to follow Scripture as near as they can Ans This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 First because men do erre therefore is not that the way The errour is by them because they go from the way not by the way because they go in it It concludes as much as if the way to Rome were not the way because some men do not finde it Secondly they professe from their hearts as they say to follow Scripture as near â—s they can but do they from their hearts professe it Thirdly if most learned men do erre grossely and follow most contradictorie opinions c. it seems then some most learned men think this is the way Fourthly if they follow most contradictorie opinions and yet follow Scripture the fault must be in them for you dare not say there is any contradiction in Scripture Fifthly they may be in way of Salvation though some do erre in the sense of Scripture as it is drawn down in application to some points of question Sixthly there should have been considered here a possibilitie of recrimination with more advantage against the Adversary For how many of them do erre in following the Church and are more prone to erre because the Church is more variable and their traditions which they say are part of the rule are not written In particular how many of them passionately differ from one another about the subject of Ecclesiastick power about temporall power whether the Pope hath any then whether direct or indirect How many of them hotly maintained contrary opinions in the Council of Trent And yet I hope they followed the Church For if they held Scripture the rule they were Adversaries to my Adversary Seventhly Therefore since men may finde your way and yet erre by it and not finde Scripture and yet erre by it for the Church may for ought is proved teach errour the Scripture not let fools go that way and most learned men goe the way of Scripture My Argument then is yet good That way which the Church goes we must go And this they will not deny But the Church goes the way of Scripture and this they cannot deny Nor is there any direct Answer made thereunto Therefore Neither is my fourth Answer answered Therefore may we conclude contradictorily to his conclusion of this number the visible Church is not this Judge by submission to the judgement whereof we are secured from all errour Num. 3. S. 2. Whence what you say against my third Number is easily answered For all Religions agreeing that there must be one Judge of all controversies which either be or may be in Religion they must all give infallibilitie to their Judge Ans And from what was said before all that you reply to my answer is easily answered for no Religion but yours doth say that there must be a formall visible Judge of all controversies infallible And as for us we say there is no need of such a Judge and our principles do conclude negatively to such a Judge For whereas we say God's written word hath plainly set down all things necessary to salvation as you do relate it we also by consequence inferre that there is no need of controversie in things necessary because the Scripture hath plainly determined those points which are necessary already which how true it is we shall shew in answer to your third Chapter All other Sectaries agreeing with you in that point I understand not how you could say that none but we hold an infallible Judge Ans If you include us here amongst the Sectaries as you seem to do we deny the charge And we say we are no more Sectaries than the Catholick was before Papacie had head or foot in the world We say as he my name is Christian my sir-name is Catholick We have made no such change of Doctrine as to be accounted Hereticks as you call us nor of Discipline as to be accounted Schismaticks but we should not appear so innocent unlesse Romans should first accuse us And secondly there are no Sectaries but you that do maintain the contrary unlesse they be Anabaptists and Enthusiasts which make themselves infallible Judges as your single Church makes it self an infallible Judge For Thirdly those who hold the Scripture to set down plainly all things necessary are not in this Sectaries as seems to be intimated in the former words Nor fourthly by holding the Scripture to have plainly set down things necessary do they inferre that there is a necessity of an infallible Judge to decide all controversies which may spring up For their opinion includes the contrary And therefore upon the whole matter the former words are not so rationally delivered And what he saies afterwards that without an infallible Guide every man might proceed as if your faith were fallible and so give an infallible assent to nothing is indeed gratis dictum For if this discourse be resolved as it must be into this proposition Without an infallible Guide our faith is fallible and we can give infallible assent to nothing it will appear to be salse because the proposition is false as it is taken universally For though in points of question I cannot give an assent infallibly to a Judge unlesse I do give an assent infallible to this Judge's being infallible yet we hope we may give an infallible assent to those things which are plain in Scripture and not questioned Yea secondly I may give an infallible assent to that which is in question without an infallible Judge external because by his agitation of it I may see it plainly resolved into the sense of Scripture which indeed is the formall rationall end of all Councils that by the conference of learned men the meaning of Scripture as to the case may be cleared The former discourse therefore is plainly fallacious a dicto secundum quid or a particulari as if because we cannot have an infallible faith of things disputed without an infallible Judge we could have no faith in any thing but fallible Yea it is false in those particulars debated for we may have a faith infallible of them by Scripture though the Judge ministeriall be not infallible The faith objective is infallible in the Scripture and the faith may he infallible subjective by the rule of Scripture and yet the Judge fallible because we may make use of the Fathers of the Church as Consuls not as Dictators In the next words he would vindicate himself from saying that without such a Judge we should be free to follow without any fault our private Judgement in holding what we will as you insinuate But I said otherwise every man might be free to believe what he judged best and so we should have as many Religions as there be private and different judgements c. Ans He doth me wrong in saying that I
that time infallible which yet we grant not a possibilitie of it to be infallible still It doth not inferre an actuall infallibilitie still Because God did so then therefore he did so after the word was written is as good an Argument as this because God made an extroardinary light for the time before the Sun was created therefore we must not now be directed by the light of the Sun As if because God did sufficiently rule his Church without general Councils for the first three hundred yeares therefore we should not make use of Councils now And then we say secondly we must not compare the two thousand yeares before any word was written but onely with the time of the Church when the Gospel was not written as for fortie years after Christ untill the Canon was finished and so it bears some proportion but it is not to be compared with the other times of the Church after the finishing of the Canon For then the word was to be the ordinary standing rule without Prophets or Apostles Thirdly was there any thing necessary consigned by tradition to the Church which was not put into writing This cannot be said because then God should have provided for his Church worse afterwards by writing And if it be said that the writing of the word doth not exclude the word not written which is tradition let them tell me why when all was in tradition before somewhat was put into writing and somewhat left in the way of tradition And then also let them tell me how that of our Saviour should be true St. John the fifth 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you think to have eternall life and they are they which testifie of me if any thing necessary were left in tradition how could they have eternall life in the Scriptures So then since all that was necessary was committed to writing why then was not that whereby the Church was ruled for forty years before the Canon was finished written also as well as before and then your tradition which you contradistinguish to Scripture is evacuated Or let me know why we may not as well deny the Roman traditions in point of faith after the finishing of the Canon as our Saviour did the traditions of the Pharises after their Canon was finished And why then should we not apply to them that of our Saviour to the Jews St. Mat. 15.9 In vaine do they worship me teaching for Doctrine the traditions of men Might not the Pharisees as well have put their traditions into their Mishna which as the tradition is was delivered by word of mouth from God to Moses from Moses to Joshuah from Joshuah to the seventie from them to the Church And fourthly my Adversary speakes this in favour of Generall Councils does he not If he does not his discourse doth not well cohere if he does he does not consider that for the two thousand yeares there was no generall Council nor for the first forty of the Christian Church Nor much for the first three hundred years And what consequence can be then drawn from his words against me for my deniall of being obliged absolutely to Councils If the Church were infallible even without Councils it would contradict me who say that the Church is not infallible even by Councils but since he sayes now the Church is infallible by Councils if it were infallible without Councils it would contradict him who says it is infallible in and by Councils because he placeth the infallibilitie in Councils so as that he will not stand to any infallibilitie of the Church without them Num. 7. In the seventh Number he doth indeavour to free me from the fear of hypocrisie in differing by an outward act from our inward act of belief But his indeavour is not sufficient To differ by my outward act of subscribing from my inward act of belief is hypocrisie but if I subscribe to that which I do not assent unto as true I must differ by my outward act from my inward act and therefore will it be hypocrisie To the assumption he would now give me satisfaction by perswading me that my inward act of assent may well go along with my outward act of subscribing His reason is this for any wise man may inwardly perswade himself that although I by my force of wit cannot see how such a point defined by a whole General Council should be true yet if I have wit I cannot but perswade my self even according to humane wisdome that so grave a judgement of a whole Council is far more likely to see the truth than my private judgement and therefore rather to be interiourly imbraced Ans And is this all he can say to move me to change my opinion First he seems to suppose that we cannot see sufficient reason in all the determinations of a Council and so far he speaks ingenuously because it is a prejudice against himself Secondly there are so many doubts of a free generall Council about the morall existence of it that I had need of some Divine faith to believe that such or such is a free Generall Council And that there may be such scruples of such a Council he himself afterwards gives me intimation of Thirdly all this I can give you the free use of for it will do me no harme The discourse is peccant upon the ignorance of the Elench for this is in terms reconcilable to our cause yea and also almost all that follows to the end of the number for they do not prove a captivating of the soul into the obedience of faith as the Apostle speaketh but at most but a disposing of the mind of the person against opposition As you do conclude you conclude above your premisses as you should conclude from your premisses before you can conclude nothing against me For fourthly all that is said there makes no more than a probability of that to be right which is defined by the Council For put case it seems so to all in a generalitie or to most or to the wisest and of them to all or most of the wiser of them this is but probable according to Aristotle's account And then I will deny it that every Council is so qualified If it were this probabilitie makes but a strong opinion but not faith And therefore the Romanist doth unadvisedly urge necessity of faith upon grounds infallible before they can give us grounds infallible And therefore fifthly as for his Dilemma it will not take It is this Either the places against the definitions of the Council are clear or not if not they are more likely to hit upon the truth than I am if clear and evident then it is an evident and clear folly in me to thinke that so wise an Assembly should have so universall a blindnesse as that none of them should be able to discover that which is cleare and evident even to my short sight alas how far comes this short of infallible satisfaction And
he saies we must resolve our faith in the authority of a Council and if it hath defined that the sense how came they to have authority to define this to be the sense of the place If not clear to this purpose how came they to divine infallibly this sense for the Scripture according to them did not appear to have this sense without a Council then who gave authority to the first Council to give this infallibly to be the sense If clear then have we no such necessity of an infallible Judge for umpiring of litigant senses Thirdly Tell it to the Church ex vi authoritatis as to teach not ex vi infallibilitatis in teaching in regard of authority as to persons not infallibility as to truth Representatively in the office not absolutely in the matter We are to hear them as authorized to teach but not simply to believe them as if they were assisted not to err He that is appointed by Christ and doth say that which is false is not to be believed because if he saies that which is true it is not to be accounted true because he saies so but he is to be accounted as to speak true because it is so yea they may know that that text was applied by Christ as to censure in points of trespasse not to obedience in points of faith Not that Scripture alone by her self endeth all our differences c. Ans Who ever said so Who is his Adversary It were easie to have the victory without an Adversary if possible No Nor the Church alone by her self But we say also the Scripture doth not formally end any as they would have a living Judge and yet is not deficient in necessaries for by proposing plainly what is necessary it concludes necessarily against the necessitie of a living Judge infallible What is necessary more than to believe that which is necessary And therefore no need of traditions and what more plain than that there is no need of an infallible Judge as to salvation since what is necessary is plainly delivered in Scripture It is sufficient in the matter for necessaries and it is clear enough in the manner as to points of faith understood signanter And would we be ruled by Scripture there would be fewer Controversies in the Church and of the Church And were not their Church a party for it self it would give all to Scripture The interess of the Church hath brought in traditions not for salvation but for its authority And the Scripture must not clearly have delivered all points necessary because then what reputation would be given to the authority and magnificence of the Church But we are invited much to the third chap. and expectation is raised wherein he saies when I shall have fully set down the state of the question you shall find all that you add in this place presently answered Ans This he sayes should be done before it be said If he will prove that we must err in point of salvation without obedience to their judge If he will prove that all error is damnative and if he can prove that their Church or the Church hath not erred yea cannot err then we will excuse him for repetitions in the third chap. for he cannot come off handsomely with answering in a third chap. what was said in a former more fully unlesse he saies much more to what is said than what he hath yet said But we do not prejudice his Judge CHAP. III Shewing that since Scripture alone doth sufficiently propose all things necessary to salvation there is no need of a living Judge infallible HEre he saies at first Num. 1. You deliver your opinion in your answer to my third Num. p. 12. thus And then he tels me my opinion of which he says no proof was given by you untill you came to this present place For proof he hath had as much as could reasonably be required and more I suppose than he desired But I was to follow him and therefore he was not to accuse me And he might then have begun with the proof if he would have made short work He then prepares himself to reinforce the combate And therefore he saies And first I will take leave to state this question a little more fully and distinctly Ans He useth his own right if he will state the question more fully and distinctly and it is right to do so All good discourse begins with a definition and all regular disputes with the state of the question And it will be a favor to me if he does it well for we shall have done the sooner And so he ends his first number Your assertion then is Num. 2. that all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture Ans Yes this is my assertion And I am not ashamed of it yet for it is not mine alone but the Scriptur's and St. Austin's and others as he hath heard before In this assertion there be two things which needfull and distinct declaration the first is to declare these words necessary to salvation the second to declare those words plainly set down Ans Content let him be as good as his word onely let him take care he doth not as some he knew confound that which is to be distinguished and distinguish that which is to be confounded So let him turn his answering to what I said against his assertion into an opposition of mine And first concerning those words necessary to salvation they must of necessity be understood so that all things are plainly set down in Scripture which are necessary first to the universall Church as it is a Community Secondly all things necessary to all states and degrees that must needs be in this Community Thirdly all things necessary to every person bound to be of this Community Ans This way he thought to destroy my assertion as Mr. Cressy does to destroy the assertion of Mr. Chillingworth but it will not do For here is he faulty in confounding that which is to be distinguished He should have distinguished betwixt necessaries to salvation and necessaries to the universall Church as it is a Community though all that is necessary to salvation is necessary to the Church taken confusely of the persons yet whatsoever is necessary to the universall Church as a Community is not necessary to salvation for then before there was a competent aggregation in a Community there was no possibility of salvation And that Community is to be saved by the holding of things necessary is it not Yes he would say then this Community doth not come in to integrate things necessary to salvation and if not then those things which are necessary to this Community doth not come in neither Then he should have done well secondly to have distinguished betwixt a Church in its being and in its well being All things are not necessary to the being of a Church which are requisite to the bene esse of it Now salvation may
not this also that a Minister of the Gospell may competently inform the people in the necessaries to salvation And if a Minister can do it surely the Church But the stresse of the discourse lies in this whether what the Church can doe may not sufficiently be done without the Church And then secondly if not without the Church whether it may not be done without the Church its infallibility Now to this last my Adversary speaks thus that he stands not upon this whether this competent direction should be called an infallible direction or not No doth he not Then he seemeth to yield that which he hath so much contended for the infallibilitie of the Church that that is not necessary He hath formerly urged the infallibility of the Church to ground faith now he either grants that we may be saved without faith or that faith may be grounded without infallibility which indeed in my opinion doth yield the cause But then also they will give us leave to note that the cause betwixt the Romanist and us as to verbum non Scriptum is also yielded hereby for if he will sit down with this postulate that the Church may competently direct us to happinesse through the Scriptures then the word not written is secluded from a competent direction to salvation For the word not written is absolutely contradistinguished to Scriptures And therefore I see no reason we should goe further in this work which is not so hard as tedious But that he calls us back with an Epanorthosis Though we think it most certain that no fallible direction can competently direct the people to happinesse Well will they stand to this Where shall we have them If it can then as before If it cannot upon their second thoughts then we say absolute loquendo we grant it thus that the Church not proposing any infallible direction cannot competently direct us and therefore untill they prove the Church infallible in their traditions infallible too or as to the interpreting of Scripture they have no cause by their own argument to obtrude so often the authority of the Church because it is no competent direction to happiness unlesse it be infallible as they now think But take the Church as proposing Scripture which we have hitherto made plain sufficiently as to things necessary so though the Church be not infallible in its own direction yet being considered as bringing Scripture which is infallible it may competently direct unto happinesse And so these great magnifiers of the Church upon due account have left us in the field to defend the Church when they have left it We can make use of its competent direction with the Scripture which is certain and infallible They cannot make use of the Church without infallibility So then as the Catholick Moderator says of the reformed religion that it cannot be blamed in the point of justification since it lays hold upon that which can certainly save us namely the righteousnesse of Christ so also to be sure here we are on the surer hand because we make use of that which is certainly infallible the Scripture and also of that which gives us some competent direction the Church specially taking the Church universally for place and time It is no question that the present Church cannot end the present controversies Now because by the way I did say our Church could not err in damnative errors you conceive me to grant that it may err in points not damnative Ans This is well put in by the way I did say he spake it more than once and it appeared also to be spoken provisionally that there might be some refuge for the Church if it should be convicted of some error yet not damnative And surely it were better for them to lie close under the buckler of this distinction unlesse they had better arguments to prove universall infallibility But since it may be Mr. Knot 's inconveniences of that distinction have been found prevalent and so it is quitted He expounds himself thus When I said these words I did onely take and subsume that which you your selves most commonly grant unto the Church that it cannot err in damnative matters Ans This but one degree from a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He says he meant it as we If he meant it as we how doth he conclude against us We hold it distinctively upon the case of the whole Catholick Church though a particular Church may err in points damnative So then he meaning it as we leaves the way plain to inferr that he held that the Church might err in points not damnative If he did take it as we we are agreed and then by Mr. Knot 's argument infallibility is extinguished He used it formerly in way of distinction and specificatively or not If not then the use of it formerly is none if so then he is lost And they may very easily perswade themselves that we can allow unto them this priviledge of the Church that it hath a main advantage over any Minister or private Interpreter This we can afford unto them without absolute infallibility of the Church If they will be contented with such a priviledge to the Church as no Minister or private Interpreter can have they need not exceed the distinction of the Church's not erring in damnatives specifically taken For a private Minister or Interpreter may erre in damnatives Yea also this exemption from errors damnative in this sense gives a demonstrative reason why we should not follow our own interpretations without apparent cause because the Church universall cannot err in damnatives therefore we should prefer that when we see not plain cause to the contrary and because it may err in other things therefore cannot we absolutely yield the Church obedience of faith for its own sake And our differences from the Church in interpretations are not therefore damnative simply because we differ from the Church but if we contemn the Church which hath authority and more faculty and if we wrest hard texts as some men did in St. Paul's Epistles to their own perdition as St. Peter saith Interpretations may be flatly contrary and not damnative till the Church be proved without possibility of error to be without possibility of error let them then hold the former distinction untill they can make good these two points first that the Church cannot err at all the second that all error is damnative These are two hard propositions and therefore if that which is most hard is most easily broken as the rule is in the Trent History they should do well to break them When the Church shall shew her Commission for her infallibility she may 〈…〉 Commission for our obedience intuitiâ—â— Num. 9. Here he begins I will presse again your text and give a second answer Namely the second Ep. to Tim. 3.16 So then now we shall contend 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He says we render the word for correction so your Bible reads it And why doth
may be need of a Judge externall as to peace but for this there is no need of a Judge infallible If any thing would content them but a spirituall Monarchy this might yea neither it may be if such a Monarchy were necessary were this infallibility necessary because Ministeriall authority doth not essentially include such an infallibility But he goes on and useth an argument against me The word of God according to your own Doctrine was not sufficient to decide all necessary Controversies before the whole Canon of Scripture was compleatly finished but St. Paul said this of the word of God before the Canon of the Scripture was compleatly finished Therefore St. Paul said this of the word of God before the word of God was of it self alone sufficient to decide all Controversies Therefore then it had been false to say the word of God had been sufficient to this end Therefore St. Paul did not then say so Ans Besides what I said before concerning the use which I made of this text and to say nothing of what is here supposed that St. Paul was the Author of this Epistle to the Hebrews I answer to the major that that part of Scripture was then sufficient before the whole Canon was compleatly finished in our sense to decide all necessary Controversies as well as the old Testament was sufficient to make Timothy wise unto salvation and for those uses which are there spoken of in that text to Timothy therefore he mistakes us if he thinks we hold that that part which was then written was not sufficient And yet more might be added by God though not by man for the Canon then did not restrain God but man Therefore we answer also to the assumption that if he takes compleatly finished simply then indeed St. Paul said it before the Canon was compleatly finished but if he takes the words so as that part which was written was not sufficient in our sense we deny it For then God had not sufficiently provided for the Church of those times neither had the Scripture been able to make Timothy wise unto salvation So the terms in the former sense do not conclude in the latter they are concluding but not true So this specious argument is at an end without its end Onely we will now make use of the argument against him turning the mouth of the Canon as we may speak and it is thus St. Paul said this of the Scripture before the Canon was compleatly finished therefore now much rather after it is thus compleatly finished is it sufficient Or more fully thus The word of God according to his Doctrine is not sufficient after the Canon is compleatly finished St. Paul said this of the word of God before the Canon was compleatly finished therefore his Doctrine is contradictory to St. Pauls ex abundanti for St. Paul says the word was sufficient before the Canon was compleated and he says it is not sufficient after it is compleated Again those words speak not of the word of God blunted with those interpretations which your opinion licenseth Ans This is a plain cavill or a slander we license not any blunting of the edge of Scripture by any mis-interpretations We do not deny the use of Scripture as the Romanists do to the people Neither is it fit for them to complain of blunting the edge who take away the Sword of the Spirit We onely allow the people to be perswaded in their own mind concerning the sense of Scripture and if the Pontifician authority or arguments be able ex vi fua to perswade them that what sense they give is authentick let them be perswaded But it is very usuall for them to quarrell first who are most guilty that so they may least be discovered But who blunt Scripture so much as they who say the Scripture is like a nose of wax which may be turned any way Let him that is without sin in this kind cast the first stone at us How they have adulterated Scripture is known to all the world But of the word of God applied according to the Divinely-spirited interpretation of the Church in whose hands hands guided by the Holy Ghost this word of God is managed for the decision of Controversies that it is sharper than any two edged Sword Ans How often must we be forced to tell them that we exclude not the use of the Church in a due Representative towards composing of differences and also that the Church is not now infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost And therefore that their decision is not the last resolutive of faith and that there is no need of any such infallible Judge for necessary Controversies since there is no necessity of Controversies about things necessary And also that if there were such a Judge infallible we must know it and who it is infallibly And also then hereby are excluded the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of traditions for if the Scripture interpreted by the Church be to decide all Controversies then what need to have recourse to the word not written as to that which equally binds in things of faith And so then they destroy themselves And therefore whereas they say frequently that Scripture alone doth not decide all necessary Controversies we can easily distinguish that alone hath respect either to the Church or to traditions as it opposeth traditions so alone and it doth exclude them and as it doth respect the Church so though it doth not exclude the use of a Judge yet it doth exclude the necessity of a Judge infalble His other lines unto the eleventh num might have been spared Si non verum prius nec posterius And they have also been answered And here wisely he joins to the examination of my former texts Num. 11. another text which I produce against him in answer to the fourteenth number that he might handsomely decline an answer to that which if he would have dealt punctually I should have been answered in its place but we follow him at the running leap The text is that of Christ Search the Scriptures St. John 5.39 His exception is this To prove this to be understood in the Imperative mood evidently is impossible therefore evidently they do not contain a Command This is the sum of that discourse Ans First evident proof they had not best urge for then what will become of all their faith and all their discourse which doth not amount to so much as probability Secondly if it be more probable to be understood in the Imperative it is sufficient to weaken their cause since I am to be considered as proposing the text by way of a respondent not as an opponent Therefore if I name a text which is but probable against them it is enough for me against them specially in the cause of infallibility for a probable contradiction undoes infallibility Thirdly it is in the Syriack in the Imperative mood and this interpretation if any other should weigh with us
unto habituall knowledge and yet error may come by want of actuall knowledge either negatively by not applying them or worse by misapplying them they take such opinions first as are of use to them then will draw Scripture to them as is observed but they should apply their opinion to Scripture not Scripture to their opinion Sixthly and lastly he did not consider how near he came to Blasphemy by comming so near to a contradiction of Christ for Christ says to them Ye err not knowing the Scriptures and his consequence says by consequence that they might err though they did know the text because it doth not plainly set down the Resurrection whereby he makes either our Saviour to affirm that they could not know the Scripture which our Saviour plainly supposeth or else that the cause of not erring is not to know the Scriptures as to that point which how he will answer at that great day I know not And so his Syllogism comes to nothing or worse than nothing For if all things had been plainly set down they should not have erred but they erred therefore all things are not plainly set down His major is false If he takes should not have erred ex parte officii it is true but not to his purpose if he takes it ex parte event us it is to his purpose but not true It is not false that they might not have erred but that they could not err it is false A posse ad non posse non non valet Means are not always used or not as they should be We know our duty plainly in many things yet we do not do it This argument is good against him men have erred about the sense of the Trent Definitions as hath been said therefore all things are not plainly set down by the Church but this Argument is not good against us because we do not allow the form or rule of the argumentation His other answer is as uneffectuall that they might err in the knowledge of the Scriptures because in the reading of them they did follow their own private Interpretation which is the most ready way to err specially when men oppose the publick interpretation of the Church Ans And doth this conclude contradictorily to this proposition that they might not err if they attended to Scripture Secondly they might err if they attended to the Church because for ought is yet confirmed the Church may err and therefore the surer way is to attend to Scripture which they confesse is infallible Thirdly if he speaks of opposing the publick interpretation of the whole Church we allow more reverence to the universall Church than to theirs Fourthly is it necessary that every one who cannot submit intuitively to all the definitions of the Church in points of question should oppose the publick interpretation of the whole Church in plain points of faith Fifthly Maledict a glossa quae corrumpit textum This glosse corrupts the text for there is here a limitation of Christs words which else where he accuseth us of without any colour from the words of the Text. The Text disertly represents the cause of erring in this matter of the resurrection to be the not knowing of the Scriptures without any mention of the Church He will not afford it right unlesse we take in also obedience to the interpretation of the Church and his Church too for otherwise he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was not then surely invested with the priviledge of infallibility which was not invested upon them as some of their most learned affirm til after the resurrection of Christ And therefore if this were true it were not pertinent Sixthly upon this whole matter it comes to this that it is with them better to believe the Church without the Scripture even in plain points than the Scripture without the Church for otherwise he comes not up to the state of our question And how good this Divinity is let those learned ones of their Church judge who will thus distinguish of the Scripture that it is necessary but not sufficient which also in my opinion is by them intended on the behalf of the Church indeed but not to bring in a new necessity of an infallible Judge in matters of Scripture expressed but to bring in necessity of Traditions in matters of Faith not expressed Num. 13. Your fifth text is 2. Pet. 1.19 We have also a more sure word of Prophecy whereunto you do well that you take heed as unto a light that shineth in a dark place untill the day dawn and the day-star arise in your hearts His exceptions against the validitie of this text are two One that all things necessary to salvation are not there set down when S. Peter spake those words because the Canon was not finished This we have fully taken away before The other is thus how will you prove that all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture because one thing is plainly set down Ans To this first take that which was said before about the concluding all points necessary to be plainly set down because that of the Resurrection is so with the reason thereof and the reason is good here also because he seems to confesse that that one point of Jesus's being the Son of God and the Messias might clearly be found in Scripture This me thinks then we have gained that one point is clearly set down in Scripture And this it may be conceived he might grant me because I could draw no consequence from thence against him for so he insists how will you infer ergo all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture We make use of it thus If this point be plainly set down in Scripture then other points also necessarily concerning his being the Messiah must also clearly be set down so then here is a wheel in a wheel yea many inclusively in one and those also clear but verum prius as it seems by his own confession Secondly if I should serve them with a quare impedit why do they not as well admit other points to be clearly set down in Scripture what will they say surely they will say that this point is plainly set down because it is so necessary Well then we reply If there be degrees of necessaries then we may be saved in any degree of necessaries Or if this be set down onely as necessary why not all necessaries For the rule is good A quatenus ad omne valet consequentia If that clearly set down as necessary then all things necessary are clearly set down The same reason is the principle of universality surely with God who doth all things in number weight and measure For although that Axiom Idem quae idem semper facit idem doth not always follow as in finite Agents because they may be defective in their power and there may be want of disposition in the matter they work upon but it cannot be
those texts defended doth sufficiently confirm the Scriptures sufficiency in matter and manner to this end of salvation We do not say that all things necessary to decide all Controversies are plainly set down in it that is not our assertion nor the state of the question betwixt us Our position may be true and yet this false for all things necessary to salvation may be plainly set down in Scripture and yet not all things necessary to decide all Controversies Neither can they maintain this of their Church which they think more fit to decide Controversies than Scripture for then why did not the Trent Council clearly determine on which part many questions should be held But the plainnesse of things necessary is in Scripture sufficient against the necessity of any Controversie as the fulnesse is sufficient against the necessity of Tradition which is their word unwritten And therefore are not we bound by any necessity of our cause to find any Text wherein we are obliged to take the Scripture for our onely Judge of Controversies for the texts before maintained are good to prove us obliged to Scripture for salvation whereunto things necessary are plainely set down If he might have made the state of the question for his own turn my discourse should have been impertinent A ruffling Adversary would have said that he had shifted and shuffled in the change of the question as if we had held that the Scripture did contain all things necessary to decide all Controversies All prime Controversies necessary to salvation if there need be any it doth and that is sufficient for us against them But he thought he had devised a way how this opinion might be made good that the Scripture doth suffice for the deciding of all Controversies thus Yet the Scripture wanteth not that glory of being sufficient to decide all imaginable Controversies because she teacheth us that Christ hath erected a Church built upon a rock the pillar and ground of truth having the Spirit of truth abiding with her to teach her all truth O excellent provision for the honor of Scripture One in the Trent Council as I remember did not like references but would have all done uniformely by the same hand but we must from Scripture referr to the Church And as it is said of Cardinall Bellarmin that being asked a question too difficult said he could not tell how to answer it but he would shew the party one that could and then shewed him the picture of an excellent Divine so the Scripture cannot answer all Controversies but it hath reputation in this that it can shew and doth an infallible Judge of all imaginable Controversies the Church To this first methinks then if it were but for this use the Scripture should be more common to the Laitie because it sheweth so clearly this Judge Secondly let them shew unto us where the Scriptture doth plainly shew unto us this Judge that they may no longer beg the question And Thirdly let them tell us why the Church doth not determin all Controversies as we have said before not imaginable onely but reall Controversies as concerning the Popes power in compare with a Council and concerning his temporall power and concerning the right of Bishops concerning original sin concerning the conception of the Virgin were these determined with satisfaction to all the Members of the Council Fourthly doth the Scripture give the denomination of this Church which is the pillar and ground of all truth that should be the infallible Judge Fifthly if they think the Spirit of truth doth abide with the Church to decide all Controversies by way of an habituall gift then must this Church have more priviledge than the Apostles had for they had the Spirit by way of a transient gift and therefore some particular questions they did not decide by the gift of the Spirit but the Church must have a standing faculty to decide all imaginable Controversies Sixthly may not we as well say this is for the glory of the Church for necessaries to salvation that it sends us to the Scripture which is infallible and clear enough in things of necessary faith This honour the Fathers before the universal Bishop gave to the Scriptures the Romanists now would arrogate it to the Church If they must be brought to a Competition which in ingenuity should carry the honour the Scripture according to the Fathers or the Church according to the Romanists But he thinks according to his principles he is not engaged to finde a plaine Text where this is set down that the Church should decide with infallible authoritie all our Controversies because according to them all points necessary to salvation be not plainly set down Answ Then first according to our principles we are not bound to believe it and we must account it no necessary to salvation because it is not plainly set down And how then shall we know it what by its own light or may we know the Church by Scripture and not the infallibility which is the priviledge Secondly How then could he say by Scripture that God hath provided a way so direct that fooles cannot err Thirdly if he confesse that there is not a clear text which sheweth this priviledge of and our duty to the Church then the disputation is at an end for he will not dispute with me from the testimony of the Fathers for causes best known to himself And if he sayes we must be judged by the Church it is the question Fourthly therefore are we in this agreed which is the main point of the question namely that the Scripture doth not plainly set it down that the Church is to decide with infallible authority all our Controversies For if it were plainly set down we also should be bound to believe it as being plainly set downe though it would not therefore be necessary to salvation simply because it is plainly delivered All necessaries are plainly set down according to our opinion but all that is plainly set down is not necessary to salvation ex natura principii And then fifthly if he doubts of this point as to be plainly set down in Scripture then his principles are less capable of certainty than ours for he hath no ground certain of his faith upon the account of the Church because if the Church did ground her infallibility upon her owne authority contradistinctly to Scripture she could not by her owne authority contradistinctly to Scripture prove that she is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and yet neither hath the Church or their Church for ought I have read in any of their Councils determined it selfe by Scripture or otherwise infallible to the decision of all imaginable Controversies Nay neither do Bellarmin or Stapleton if I be not mistaken assert the infallibility of the Church in this extent therefore my Adversary in this walks alone Yet he says the texts he will produce hereafter are an hundred times more clear that the Church is to decide all our Controversies than
and consequently hope too Yet we may hope to make his charge nought and our faith good but we need not say any more than what hath been said whereunto he hath said as much as comes to little yet now he diverts hither We must say therefore again that this should not be a question betwixt us how we believe the Scriptures to be the word of God for this is supposed betwixt us as the subject of the question And we say that the sense of this argumentation is to as much purpose as if when we are at London we must go back again because we did not go the new way As to the Assumption then we deny it We do ground our assent to this truth upon Divine Revelation Yea moreover we return him his argument in terms and therefore they have no Divine faith so naturall it is for those to speak most who have a mind to cover their own defects They cannot ground their assent to this truth upon Divine Revelation because they ground it upon the authority of the Church for they must either have an immediate revelation that the Church is infallible or else they must ground it upon the general sum of revealed truth and that is the Scripture for as for Tradition that which is of a particular Church is of no weight as to this businesse and universall Tradition must go upon account of the Church now then if they say that they have a Revelation immediate that the Church is infallible in proposing those books to be Canonical they make that to be of use to them which they deny to us who have as good reason to say that we may as well have an immediate revelation that the Scripture is the word of God but if they ground their faith upon some texts of Scripture which concern the Church then they must believe the Scripture for it self So then either they must come to us or else indeed they have no Divine faith And therefore had he no cause to be offended with that I said that the Canonical books are worthy to be believed for themselves as we assent to prime principles in the habit of Intelligence To this he says in a parenthesis And so is the book of Toby and Judith as well as these But doth he say this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and doth he not then find fault with the antient Church who did not as hath been shewn give equall reverence to these as to the books Canonical If they be as worthy to be believed as the books Canonical then they erred in not receiving them with equall belief And if they erred then our Adversaries are lost And now as for our assent to the Canonicall books in the manner of assent to prime principles by the help of the Spirit of God they are not like to prosper in the abuse of it First it is to be noted that we are not now to deal with one that denies the Scripture to be the word of God for to an unbeliever hereof we should use other arguments rationally to induce him to a good opinion hereof but when we are demanded by a Christian what is it that grounds our faith of Scripture one would think we might say that we are resolved to a Divine faith hereof by the Spirit of God disposing our assent to them as of themselves worthy to be believed which is the reason of assent to prime principles And therefore secondly we do not say that our assent to the Canonical books is by a naturall light as our assent to prime principles but that our assent is made to them by way of Intelligence through the Spirit the light of the Spirit as to shew us the Scripture to be worthie of belief for it selfe is supernaturall but when that comes we believe it as we do prime principles not by discourse but because it is credible of it self Faith herein bears more proportion to intelligence than to science because we do not in faith use a reason to the act as we do in science And this is intimated in the common reading of that text of the Prophet Si non crediderint non intelligent if they will not believe they shall not understand so then since faith is a supernaturall habit as the School-men the Spirit of God doth infuse it into us as being an habit infused as they speak and this doth dispose us to believe the Scripture to be the word of God as by him indited And one would think that it is a better ground to believe it to be the word of God because he saith so than to believe it because the Church saith so and it is more about because I cannot believe it upon the account of the Church but because God gives testimony of the Church and why cannot we then believe God teste seipso So all the assent we give to them is made upon the veracity of God which is the center in which all lines of Scripture do meet and terminate Therefore might he have spared that which follows Have you brought all the infallibility of Christian Religion unto this last ground to be trampled by the Socinians Ans First I do not see what reason we have to lay the foundation of Religion so as to please the Socinian One who maintained the Protestant cause was prejudiced by suspition of being inclined to Socinianism and I am now found fault with for not providing for their satisfaction in our principles Well but secondly I do not finde that Socinians do abhor this tenure of Scripture And thirdly they to be sure do trample upon the authority of their Church as infallible And therefore this is to be returned home to the Romanist And also upon the former grounds might he have omitted what follows from doe you expect unto all that you believe for although the object is to be believed for it self as a prime principle yet is there not a naturall light for it that comes supernaturally and therefore faith is a supernatural habit But if they would be accounted such rationall men in the faith of Scripture they do deserve from the Socinian a negative reverence by a positive favour to them But again how far is that which I have said different from the determination of Ratisbon in their fourth session Scripturae dicuntur perfectae quoad perfectionem eredibilitatis et exactissimae veritatis The Scriptures are said perfect as in respect of the perfection of credibility and most exact truth And the perfection of credibility belongs to the first principles which are indemonstrable And as those principles have themselves immobiliter unto Sciences as Aquinas so the Scriptures have themselves unto Divinity Here we must rest And if every one doth not believe them to be the word of God upon this account this doth not derogate from the credibility of the object thus we say that the Scriptures are the infallible word of God is evident of its own self needing no further proof for the requiring
they were read in the Church The strength of this reasoning is resolved into this proposition Whatsoever is read in the Church is to be taken for Canonical and this proposition is false by the practice of the Church of England by St. Jerom's distinction yea also by the Canon it self for it sayes Liceat etiam legi passiones Martyrum cum anniversarii dies eorum celebrantur Itmay be lawfull also to read the passions of the Martyrs when their anniversary days are celebrated And also if that reason did bind the Fathers in the Council of Carthage to establish them as Canonical why did it not as well bind St. Jerom in whose time the books also were read if they were universally read And if the Church of God was sufficiently instructed in point of faith without them till St. Austin's time which was above four hundred years after Christ as Bellarmin confesseth why may not the Church be well enough without them still For either there must be nothing in them materiall or expositionall which is simply necessary for Gods Church or else the Church of God for the purest and best times must be unprovided thereof as Canonically to ground faith If they confesse the former we have what we would if the latter besides other consequences they destroy the rule of faith to Councils themselves or as some now will say by succession of tradition Therefore by this instance he gets nothing it is neither proof nor disproof Num. 28. Here he triumphs before the victory he doth here put a new face upon an old argument If you say that we must have a speciall Spirit that is new eyes to see it then you who have this Spirit are all Prophets discovering by private Revelation made to your selves that which all mankind besides could not and cannot discover This argument prophylactical preserves them little A speciall Spirit is considerable two ways either in ordine ad subjectum or in ordine ad objectum it may be speciall in the first sense and not in the latter Now it is the speciall Spirit in the latter sense which makes the Prophet when some new thing is revealed thus we deny any speciall Spirit which rather belongs to them who will not have all things for necessary faith and manners revealed in Scripture that so they may find in the Church by tradition the points of their Religion which they cannot find in Scripture as is noted But also the speciall faith in the first sense may be subdistinguished it is considerable either as oppositly to those who have not faith or respectively to those who have faith in the first way we say it is speciall for all men have not faith as the Apostle speaks 2 Thes 3.2 but if it be taken respectively to those who have faith we say it is not speciall but common for there is no true dogmaticall faith but such as Stapleton and their Schoolmen confesse Yea this argument may be returned to them too if they say they are inlightned by the Spirit to see all truth infallibly to be delivered by the Church they have the new eyes and they are all Prophets discerning by private revelation made to them selves that which all mankind besides could not discover So then the other old argument which here he incrustates that if the evidence of Scripture to be the word of God were such as of a prime principle as this It is impossible that any thing should be and not be in the self same circumstances then all should assent to it as they do to this principle is again slighted for first every one hath not that supernaturall light or eye to see the truth of that first principle that the Scripture is the word of God which we have said before but then secondly the prime principle in Metaphysicks are not so clear as to exclude all necessity of means of knowledge of them though they do naturally perswade assent so there are means of knowing the Scripture which do not prejudice their autopisty through the Spirit of God and therefore there may be a failing of belief Yea thirdly the Spirit bloweth where it listeth John 3.8 Yea fourthly many truths are assented to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he said which are not prophorically acknowledged And yet some of their own men have confessed this truth being overcome by the soveraignty of it Fifthly it is retorted if the authority of the Church were the prime principle for the evidence of faith then all would assent to it but all doe not assent to it therefore by his own argument the Church's authority is not the prime principle But the assistance of the Spirit he then pleads a fortiori for the Church the Church having far more proof of her assistance than every private Protestant Ans First we have no to need be put upon the compare with the Church If the Church have infallible assistance herein yet private Christians may have it too and that would be sufficient for us in this point But secondly the Church is no otherwise infallibly certain hereof than we for this is assured to every one that votes it in the Council the same way if indeed they doe give their suffrage upon a ground infallible Thirdly the private Christian is assured hereof by the Spirit for himself therefore the Council needs not be infallible herein as to teach it because we are thus taught of God If the compare were thus if the private Christian were thus assisted to teach others much more the Council this would be somewhat like but the private Christian doth not undertake this and yet doth it not follow that this infallibility doth attend the Council which doth undertake to teach others because there is use of its teaching without infallibility and no need of its teaching infallibly this point which we are infallibly perswaded of by the Spirit of God And fourthly we deny that there is any points of as much consequence wherein the Church should be assisted with infallibility as this that the Scripture is the word of God because if we be assured of this we need not depend upon any infallibility in the Church for other points since all things necessary are with sufficient plainnesse set down in the Scripture Fifthly as before the Christians were assured hereof before Pope or Council in which he placeth the authority infallible of the Church And again if the universall Church had this priviledge they speak of they are to prove themselves to be first a true part and then also that the part hath the property of the whole and when they have done these we can say as much yea more for our own Church And lastly they are yet to shew their clearer proofs of assistance to the Church than a private Christian hath for the hardest of all points namely that the Scripture is the word of God which indeed if it be compared with the points of Controversie in Divinity is not the hardest point
obtruding upon old Christians ancienter than Tertullian's Prescriptions therefore it is too much curtesie to take any notice of what he saies about the faith brought into England by S. Austin and yet we can make use of it too for if it be so as he saies that the faith brought into England by St. Austin was the same faith which was abolished by our reformation then we have abolished none but the Roman faith and the Christian faith in the general principles of it we had before And this might be enough for the virtue of miracles but that he saies miracles are called a testimony greater than John the Baptist Are they so then we take leave to shew what his words in two places will come to even in the same page 72. before in the same p. he had said that a miracle doth not make a thing so prudently credible as universal tradition here he saies that a miracle is a greater testimony than John the Baptist whence we argue thus That which is greater than that which is greater is greater than that which is less miracles are here said to be greater testimony than John the Baptist and John the Baptist's testimony was greater than of Universal Tradition then miracles are a greater testimony than of universal Tradition But let this pass And now we shall touch upon what he saies about Tradition saving that we must smile at what he saies about the truth of their miracles that there is as little to be said against them as against the miracles of the Prophets and Apostles This is not to be answered until the miracles of the Maid of Kent may be compared with those of Elijah and S. Peter and until their Doctrine which they would have confirmed by their miracles be found as good and authentick as that of the Apostles which was confirmed by their miracles But to Tradition we come Thus was the first age assured of God's word by the oral tradition of the first Pastors of the Church who had received it in the name of God from the Apostles who gave their Writings to them Ans This is not much to their purpose For first unless oral tradition did exclude the divine testimony of Gods Spirit they cannot say that the first Age was assured by this and not by that And this testimony is not excluded neither by oral tradition nor by miracles simply for Gods Spirit might assure them of the truth of each and then the last ground of faith is the testimony of the Spirit Secondly let orall tradition be restrained as to object of thing or let it equally be proved of the new points forementioned otherwise they have not by orall tradition sufficient benefit Thirdly notwithstanding the Apostles own preachings which were more than oral tradition and notwithstanding all miracles done by the Apostles which both equally had themselves to al then hearers of the one or spectators of the other yet as many as were ordained to eternal life believed Acts 13.48 So that the belief did effectually follow upon the efficacy of the Spirit of God applying the means of faith home to their Consciences It is not said as many as did believe were ordained to eternall life as if the belief foreseen had it self antecedenter to the ordination but as many as were ordained to eternall life believed Fourthly as for the Jews and Proselytes they had also who lived in the time of Christ for the means of their assurance Moses and the Prophets who had prophesied of Christ and Christian Doctrine And as for that which follows that the first Pastors besides their oral tradition did assure them that the Spirit of God would abide with the Church teaching her all truth c. We answer first if the first Pastors did teach any thing they could teach nothing but what they received from the Apostles who gave their writings to them as before and why then may not we take it better from the writings of the Apostles than from their teaching for primum in suo genere est mensura reliquorum But secondly where have they sufficient inducement of belief either by orall tradition or miracles or whatsoever prudential motives that this respects the Church under the formality of a Representative Yea thirdly therefore if so how was it made true to the Church in those Centuries wherein there was no formall Representative namely for 200 years and more wherein they had nothing but tradition to make them give an infallible assent to their Church as himself says in this Paragraph Fourthly if this promise attended the Church under the account of a Representative yet of the whole Church and what is this to the Roman Church which is but a part even in St. Jeroms judgement in his Epistle to Evagrius Yea also fifthly that promise was not spoken by the Apostles to the Church but by Christ to the Apostles and therefore can it not be drawn down in a parallel line to all the ages of the Church and therefore that which follows in the 71 p. is without any foundation Debile fundamentum fallit opus But he reinforceth the power of universal tradition Now there is nothing which can make any thing more prudently credible than universall tradition and so he prefers it to a miracle Ans And have they vouched universal tradition by universall tradition they may be cast for they cannot find universall tradition for their supernumerary points and there was universal tradition for some points which they have cast off as before namely the millenary point and infant baptism So then by their own argument they are unprovided of such a proof than which nothing can make a thing more prudently credible Secondly if he means by the terms prudently credible precisely such then he derogates from infallibility and so all this discourse comes short of the state of the question which respects infallible assurance If he means it subordinatly to that which makes infallible assurance then why doth he insist upon this as the primum mobile of all faith and then let them tell us what that is which doth absolutely fix belief and determines doubting And surely the terms he useth per se do seem to be termini diminuentes that which is urg'd as prudently credible abstracts necessarily from that which is infallibly credible for they are sub diverso genere And so when all comes to all upon the whole matter and at the foot of the account all faith goes no higher than a prudentiall assent Then thirdly therefore as to the force of the Argument he hath no Adversary for we can say so to Nothing can make any thing more prudently credible than universall tradition and we can make use of this motive as well as the Roman yea somewhat better because he will shrink the whole Church into one City of Rome But fourthly suppose nothing in the kind of that which is prudently credible as such were above universall tradition yet this concludes not rightly that absolutely
uni tantum aut alteri populo proponuntur in particular judgements and in precepts of manners which are not proposed to the whole Church but to one or another people he saies they may erre in the same Chap. but so may not Scripture therefore can they not receive the vulgar edition absolutely as the first Church did receive the Original Copies so that either my Adversary hath overshot or the Cardinal under and if they will have nothing to do with him that in any title importing Faith or Manners differ from them then they have many to excommunicate on Munday Thursday though they absolve them again on Good Friday as they do the King of Spain for detaining part of St. Peters Patrimony And as for the other exception I made against the vulgar by the varieties of the Edition of Sixtus 5tus and clement the 8th he refers me to a Famous Book called Charity maintained written against Dr. Potter See it Part 2. c. b. n. 3. as I take it in his Copy but he saves me the labour in telling me the effect of it thus That by Authentical testimonies of persons beyond all exception is shewed there that the decree of Sixtus 5tus about his Edition was never promulgated and that he had declared divers things to have crept in which needed a second revew and that the whole work should be re-examined though he could not do it being prevented by death Ans according to their principles no Authentique testimony but of a Council confirm'd by the Pope let them shew such And then we say Secondly what if the decree of Sixtus 5tus was not promulg'd was not this Sixtus 5tus's Edition And it seems there was a decree for it but not promulg'd and the promulgation makes it but legible the decree I hope makes it credible the promulgation attends the binding of it in actu exercito but the decree attends the constitution of it in actu signato And was there no error in it because it was not promulgated Or rather was not it therefore not promulgated because there was error in it Thirdly the Authority of the Trent Council was ingaged rather for this than for that of Clement the 8th for the Trent Council as they know speaks of it as in verbis de presenti haec ipsa vetus vulgata editio quae longo tot saeculorum usu in ipsa ecclesiâ probata est this very same old and vulgar edition which by long use of so many ages is approved in the very Church as if it had been so long before born and now when it was of age should be onely Christen'd Fourthly How did divers things creep in which needed a second review what while the Church slept then how can we believe the Church in tradition and purity of Copies for she may sleep while they are stolen or corrupted Therefore have they no cause to triumph that Mr. Chillingworth hath said nothing to this point in defence of Docter Potter as they say in the following words For if the Citation be right Part 2. Mr. Chillingworth did not publish for ought I knew what he had against the second part And he gives an account thereof why he did not in the latter end of his Answer to the 1 part p. 390. And therfore they did not ingenuously charge him with this omission since it was forborne in the whole upon ingenious reasons And if they thinke to save themselves because Sixtus his decree was not published surely Mr. Chillingworth may be excused because the second Part of his Answer was not published However he had said enough against the perfection of the Vulgar translation in his answer to the first part 77. Even upon the opinion of their own men Lyranus Cajetan Pagini◠Arias Erasmus Valla Steuchus who in many places have rejected it and differed from it And to these he adds the judgement of Vega who was present at the Council and was instructed therein by the President of the Council the Cardinal S. Cruce as he saies and of Dredo and Mariana who had the opinion of Laines in it the General then of the society and in a sort of Bellarmine also But also if they might boast of not being answered in one point then some body might boast that they have given Treaties for Answers Lastly will they be confident that the decree was not published for the authority of the vulgar edition why then doth it go under the name of Sixtus 5us's Bible yea also Dr. Iames who hath written Bellum Papale to such a purpose in his third part 36. p. hath asserted that all the shifts they have made herein will not serve For both Bull and Bibles are in many mens hands whatsoever Gretser saith to the Contrary This Paragraph might have been spared N. 37. and I might be excused surely for sparing it it gives me a former reason why my two places out of St. Austin are not answered he tells me that I have given him leave to have no more to do with the Fathers This is his reason and my reason is because he will have more to do than he can do to answer them We deny not a tryal by the Fathers though their Judgement be not infallible and since we produce the Fathers for us we are bound to answer them against us as contrarily if they produce them against us they are bound to answer them against themselves and this is a rule of Reason Testem quem quis adducit pro se tenetur recipere contra se the witness which one brings for himself he is bound to receive against himself And therefore whatsoever Coccius saies ad faciendum populum we may I think say well as Nilus did in his first book of Ecclesiastical dissentions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is altogether absurd that those who have not the Fathers for their examples should of themselves discern that which is better and that we who have the Fathers should not so neither understand So he of the Romans also so that my Adversary should not have stopt this gap with an exception against my opposing of the Council of Ariminum to the Nicene Council towards proving the contradiction and consequently the fallibility of Councils but this he hath nothing new to say against and therefore I have nothing to answer more then formerly onely he chides me because I proposed the Council of Ariminum as if it had been a lawful Council and so would deceive the people which knoweth not which councils be lawful which not No This spoyles all infallibility is in Councils the people do not know which are right councils and those that are not right are not and where then shall the people find their infallibility where the way so plain that Fooles cannot err as they have told us It is better to be without a guide than to have one we cannot trust So we bid the Roman people good night and take our leaves of this number N. 38. But this
for Iudith Then one of the Councils must erre either that which established Iudith and not the rest or that which established Iudith and the rest namely that of Carthage wihch my Adversary saies S. Ierome had not seen One thought them not fit to be declared Canonical another thought them to be fit And is not this a contradiction of Council to Council Again Bellarmine saies that S. Ierome did afterwards receive the Book of Iudith Now I desire to know how much time that after doth suppose for If S. Ierome had received it presently we should have heard of it if much time after as it might be by the words then the Authority of the Church seemed not to S. Ierome so intuitively to oblige as the Antagonists suppose Had he thought the Church infallible would he have stuck at it Do not the Romanists know the rule in Tacitus Qui de liberant desciverunt They which deliberate have already revolted What he would have me note by the way that the Fathers of the Council of Carthage did acknowledge the Maccabees for true Scripture it is no difficult matter to give account to For first he goes upon a false Principle that if those Fathers were of our Religion then we must make them agree with us in this prime Principle upon which we receive all Scripture as Gods infallible Word This is not so for my living Adversaries may know that one who hath defended our Religion hath been quoted to me as differing from me in this point and that is Mr. Chillingworth Though all that are of this opinion are like to be of our Religion yet all of our Religion it seems are not of this opinion For indeed the Protestant Religion supposeth the Scripture to be the Word of God as a common Principle and therefore also there should not have been any contestation about this point if our Adversaries had not been resolved to question all Religion which is not properly theirs Secondly Therefore they might have received Scripture upon the Authority of Universal Tradition which also abstracts from the Roman Impropriation Thirdly Since they had not Universal Tradition for those Apochryphal Bookes as it seems by S. Ierom we cannot neither upon that account be ingaged to receive them as Canonical Fourthly Since they did not receive them by Universal Tradition as appears also by Cyril of Ierusalem as before and since they are not to be discerned by their own light as my Adversaries will confess nor by the conditions of the matter what reason shall we have to receive them For if they say the Council was assisted by the Holy Ghost we ask what was it assisted as a Council or as such a Council if as a Council why had not the other the same Assistance if as such a Council how shall we discern which Council the Holy Ghost will assist unto infallibility Et solos credit habendos Esse Deos quos ipse colit N. 45. In this he is pleased to move again the same stone which will in the end return upon himself again For how came one Council to acknowledge the Maccabees and another not were not the former Council as well irradiated as the latter Yes they were more in all account but of my Adversary who is not in so good a capacity to grant that the Argument from Authority of the Church graduates its strength by the greater nearness to the Primitive For he holds an equal assistance of the Spirit to the Church at all times But the old saying was Quò antiquius eò melius And the rule is good Ut se habet simpliciter ad simpliciter ita magis ad magis maximè ad maximè if it be good as ancient then the more ancient the more good And this at other times is the advantage which the Romanists would take in claiming the credit of the Original Church to them And besides he might have considered that he had no reason to bring this about again because the reason of their reception as was said before is expressed to depend upon the custome of their being read in the Church which doth not make them or declare them to be Canonical unles in S. Ieroms distinction for the edifying of the people in manners not for confirmation of faith Well then if one Council might see what another did not without prejudice to the object then S. Ierome might not see or Luther what S. Austin did without prejudice to the credibility of Scripture Yea it is not yet proved that S. Austin accounted the Book of Maccabees as Canonical as other Books But this is actum agere And again he repeats what he hath not done Let them not trouble us for they have lost their strength And yet again S. Matthews Gospel N. 46. He had better have solidly proved which he sleightly puts off the proof of in the end of the last section that they do not prove the infallibility of the Church first by Scripture I assure them this is a Fort-royal and therefore this should be made good at all hands Well but let us see his Argument in the face about S. Matthews Gospel which he saies he hath forced a passage to Surely he had no such reason to rally and obtrude this Argument again and to be so confident of it as to say boldly that it cannot possibly by our Principles ever come to be believed with an infallible assent to be Gods true uncorrupted word Why not Nay here is all of this no proof We looked for a Spear like a Weavers Beam or else some new Sword whereby the Philistin thought to have slain David but here is none yet Yea Sâ—apleton shall sufficiently answer him with a contradiction as before who saies It is not absolutely necessary to Faith that it should be produced by the Authority of the Church but it may be caused immediately by the Spirit of God So then it is possible by our Principles to believe it with an infallible assent to be the Word of God And before a Church was formed how did the material Members believe any point of Faith then it is possible But then he slides to another way as he thought of urging hiâ— Argument and that is the Marcionites the Cerdonists and the Manichaeans do deny and others may come to deny the Gospel of S. Matthew to be Gods true Word Yea but this is another question It is one thing to believe it to be Gods Word and another to prove it to him that denies it to be Gods Word Now the question in hand is how we believe it to be Gods Word And therefore we say as to such we deal with them as we deal with others who deny any part of Scripture not by the Authority of the Roman Church and therefore the Romanists get nothing by this Argument but by Universal Tradition as a common Argument which rather makes a Scholastical Faith than a Faith Divine of proper name So that also he cannot reasonably
put me in minde again that I cannot credit it to be the Word of God by virtue of the Translation since according to my opinion Translations are onely so far Gods Word as they agree with the Originals but we have onely Translations of S. Matthews Gospel no Original at all This we have in places before spoken to But suppose no Original Copie of Saint Matthews Gospel yet this makes no impossibility of belief in Stapletons judgement because we may believe immediately without the interposal of the Church And the Translation is considerable as an Instrument to represent the Object not to help the Effect it hath more relation to the fides quae than the fides quâ to the Faith objective rather than the Faith subjective So that I do not believe the sense to be true for the Translation but I beleve the Translation true because it agrees with the Sense And he that made the Originall can Supply it Again they belive the Gospel of St Matthew Do they not how do they believe it by the authority of the Church Well but what authority had the Church either operative or declarative to make or declare that to be Scripture which was not Scripture they say then the Church can make translations and particularly the vulgar latin to be authentique but the vulgar is not absolutely authentique by confession of their own men And besides the best reason which could be had it been true of the vulgar was this that that should be authentique because it was made by the original copies before they were corrupted Yea but my adversaries say there was no original copie of St. Matthews Gospel or if there was they are worthy to die as David said of Abner because they have kept their Master no better Are they now the Church unto which perfidia non potest habere accessum no unfaithfulness can have access Again if there was not an original copie or no copie of the original how shall we believe their Church to be infallible since the chief place of strength for their Church is found in that Gospel 16. Ch. 18. as Perron would think Suppose the question then be made how they prove their infallibility by Scripture answer is made by the 16. of St. Matt. the 18. Well but we must know it first to be the word of God before they prove their Church infallible by it Now they are at as great a loss as we for they cannot prove that Text to be the word of God by the infallibility of the Church because the infallibility of the Church is in question if that be not before hand assured to us that it is the word of God If then at length they have a mind to rest themselves in common argumentative principles and resolve their perswasion of it to be the word of God upon the credit of universal tradition so do we as to this kind of perswasion Whereas then they say It is uncertain who the Translator was and of what skill and honesty we answer this makes more against them For if a Divine Faith be necessary as they mightily assert then it is reason that we should less relie upon humane arguments which make but humane faith and therefore for our private assurance should believe it upon Gods own authority To that they say If there were one Hebrew Copie then in St. Ierom's time what is that to our purpose now I answer first that this may abate their confidence of an absolute negative 2. If those of Beraea did gratifie St. Ierom with the use of that Hebrew Copy it is very probable that as the former Beraeans were diligent in searching the Scriptures whether those things spoken by St. Paul were true so those would take care to consign it â—o posterity if there was but that one copie thereof 3. If he had the liberty by the Nazaraeans to describe it as before then surely of that Autograph St. Ierome would have made an Apograph he would have made another copy And 4. If the translation they so much brag of were his they know what skill and honesty the Translator was of So then they are brought to this either to take my answer or to deny their translation which they will And all their shifts will not help them N. 47. Here he would put me out of my shifts as he calls them I asked them how they were sure of their latin interpretation to be authentique they say now by tradition of former ages Well but we are satisfied thus also by way of argument concerning the Scriptures and in particular concerning the Gospel of St. Matthew We say also that we are infallibly satisfied herein by the Spirit of God And this way of faith I hope we may assert we may believe what we cannot prove as they believe that Roman Faith which they cannot prove But he saies we are incapacitated to make use of tradition This tradition doth not certâ—fie you because you hold it fallible So then Crede quod habes habes Is this a sufficient argumentation And so consequently it is infallible to you because you hold it infallible So it must it seems be You do not hold it because it is infallible but it is infallible because you hold it And thus infallibility shall not make faith but opinion shall make infallibility I had thought before that verity had been fundamentally in things and that things had not been true because we conceive them so but our conceits had been true because things are so Surely it is a better argument that the Roman Faith cannot be certified to them because their principles are uncertain as hath been shewed then that tradition cannot certifie us because we hold it fallible If it be infallible we are as sure as they in the certitude of the object though because we think it fallible we are not certain certitudine subjecti in the certitude of the subject valeat quantum valere potest And why would they have us sure of our faith in the certainty of the subject and yet scarce allow a certainty of salvation in the certitude of the object But then 2. They are sure by the tradition of former ages namely universal tradition they mean do they not if so universal traditition includes all places then how comes infallibility to be the prerogative of their Church when they are to prove their faith by universal tradition 3. It seems they do not hold tradition to be infallible and therefore by their own argument it cannot certifie them since that which was held in the Church universally for the first ages they do not now hold as they have been told namely the millenary opinion infant communion standing up in prayer from Easter to Whitsuntide Yea why do they not stand up altogether at prayer as was appointed by a Council 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. If they mean the terme certifie as infallibly we grant it if they mean it morally we deny it and therefore if they
have no more certainty then of tradition for their faith they have no faith of proper name 5. We are upon the surer ground to trust upon the Scripture because the Church must be subordinate to it then they because they trust to the Church for the truth of Scripture For if this were right then the Church might have that priviledge which St. Paul could not claim to himself namely to be mistress of our faith whereas St. Paul denies it 2. Ep. Cor. 1.24 Not as Masters of your Faith but helpers of your joy And we have Estius also of our opinion as before that all faith hath not the authority of the Church for the formal reason thereof this is enough against his first shift the second shift is this Gospel might possibly at the first be written in Greek and here he asks me whether possibilities grounded upon conjectures be sufficient to ground an infallible assent We answer no but exceptions of a possibility of error are sufficient to contradict infallibility They say they have an infallible faith we say there is a possibility of error herein and this is enough for us against them And then 2. This weapon we use against you Possibilities grounded upon conjectures are not sufficient to ground an infallible assent This it seems is their own position now they have nothing but possibilities for them therefore they have no infallible assent This assumption hath been proved before upon their own principles We have nothing but possibilities grounded upon conjectures that they have a right Pope legitimate in his Baptisme and priesthood and so of other Priests there might be want of due matter due form due intention which with them make the act null But then he compares the inevidence of St. Matthews Gospel to be the uncorrupted word of God with the evidence of St. Lukes Gospel to be such by its own light and would have me think as much reason to believe the inevidence of the latter as I doe of the former but 1. he doth not rightly to compare the evidence of St. Lukes Gospel with the inevidence of St. Matthew's as he would have me graunt As if because I supposed an inevidence which was the original I also graunted an inevidence of the Gospel and yet faith doth not exclude a negative inevidence there may be certitude of assent without evidence of the object therefore we say 2. We are rather assured of the language by the Scripture then of the Scripture by the language otherwise the ignorant people could have no faith of Scripture 3. We can give upon our own principles as much credit to the Church as to the point of the originall language as the Church can require or they prove 4. How did the Church first accept it to be the word of God whether the Greek was the originall or not By the internall testimonie of the spirit it must be said For if it should be said we receive now by tradition of former ages this is forecluded because we ask the question how the first Church accepted it if not by the spirit of God internally assuring them then let them tell us how they came to the faith thereof not opinion if so then why may we not receive it so too And moreover it doth not follow that if the Gospel of St. Matthew were originally greek therefore we should see it to be so as well as St. Luke A posse ad esse non valet Multa videntur quae non sunt multa sunt quae non videntur Many things seem which are not many things are which are not seen Every irradiated understanding of theirs doth not see all points which belong to their Church Some do see the Monarchie of the Church to be as Bellarmin some do not see the Monarchy of the Church as Spalatensis notes Again how came it to pass that the former Churches did not see the Apocryphal books to be Gods true and uncorrupted word and yet some Church of later times hath seen them such answers of mine would be repetitions were they not answers to his repetitions Nextly he comes to my argument which I did not make much of but he less that the Gospel of St. Matt. was written in Greek because the Greek copie doth interpret the word Immanuel which if it were written in Hebrew needed not any interpretation But my Adversary might have added if he had pleased that which followes in my Paper since the letters of the word put together without any variation do make that signification And this we called not a demonstration nor a probability but rather a possibility by that reason And therefore unless he did make all things invincible by infallibility he needed not to have called it a pittiful weak conjecture Well but what said he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He answers then it is manifest that translations of Scripture usually tell us the Hebrew word first and then the translation of it so Gen. Bi. 48. Galaad id est tumulus testis Not to take any notice of the Scribe he puts here that in the way of interpretation which is there delivered in way of a cause and reason of the terme Ver. 47. but Iacob called it Galeed then 48. for Laban said this heap is witness between me and thee this day therefore he called the name of it Galeed And before the name which Laban gave it in Chaldee Segar Sahudatha is not there interpreted although there be a little difference between that and the name which Iacob gave it in Hebrew for Galeed signifies the heap of witnes the other heap his witnes Therefore whereas he would make Galaad id est tumulus testis to be in termes Scripture it is not so No m re is that of Exodus 12. Phasâ— id est transitus It is not said so there but there is a reason given why they should â—at it in haste for it is the Lords Passeover ver 11. the reason is given before which is contrary to what he saies that it is usual to put the Hebrew words first and then the translation of it but here is the reason before and no formal interpretation Ratio nominis I hope is different from an interpretation Another instance and indeed in order before the last is Gen. 35.18 Benoni i.e. filius doloris mei Benjamin id filius dextrae But here also he presumptuously supposeth his vulgar latin to be Scripture which is to suppose that which is not to be supposed and indeed a sophism in begging that which is in question none of all languages which the great Bible set out with us hath doth put in these words in form of an exposition The Syriaâ—k and the Arabick and the Greek doe express the matter of the interpretation but then they leave out the name Benoni but all keep Benjamin without any interpretation Another instance of his is Exod. 16.15 31. Manna quod sign ficat quid est hoc And here again he takes the vulgar Latin for
good Scripture for none give the terme and afterwards tâ—e signification but the Latin but the name Manna they do not name And whether that be the signification of Manna deserves a criticism Some think that it may come from the Hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so it should signifie a portion neither is Bethel interpreted upon the place Gen. 35.15 So then upon the whole matter that which he confidently saies being not so in his own Instances and more my conjecture is yet true and good unless they can make the Latine Translation to be as Catholique Scripture as they would have the Pope to be universal Bishop And surely if a Translator of Scripture doth translate words of Scripture where the words are not interpreted in Scripture he is not a Translator of Scripture quoad hoc formally but materially of that which is Scripture And this is not to render Scripture so much as to make it And moreover they may know this to be the usage of the Evangelists besides which are acknowledged to have written originally in Greek to give the Interpretation of the Hebrew or Syriack words My conjecture then is well recovered of its weakness But then he falls upon me for giving a contradiction to S. Ierom. Though he saith he did see a copie of the Hebrew Original with his own eyes you reject him though all the Fathers Writings extant stand on his side Answ A conjecture of a possibility of the contrary makes no such contradiction which stands betwixt affirmation and negation categorically 2. S. Ierom then hath rather contradicted them if a conjecture be sufficient to a contradiction For can we conceive that there is not room enough for a conjecture that either that Copie which S. Ierom had use of or that which he described which may be as certain as some other may now be extant in the world which contradicts my Adversary 3. If there were an Hebrew Copie it is more than a conjecture it is more than probable that he who translated it into Greek did exactly compare it with the Hebrew whose faithfulness in those times we might better trust than some Romans now And also they know that the Pope may be deceived in point of fact Neither did all the Fathers I suppose see the Hebrew Copie And it would have been enough that none of the Fathers are against it but it is a greater adventure to say all the Fathers stand on that side And also they may know what Father did profess that he did see the remainers of those cells in which the Seventy did translate the Old Testament and who contemns that testimony I think I bear as much respect to the Fathers as some of the Romanists do or more but yet if I should hold with the Romans against the Fathers that the Bishop of Rome was the universal Bishop I should not be blamed for contradicting the Fathers But to his Argument This Copie translateth ergo it is a translation Answ Tâ—e Antecedent begs the question whether it doth translate or not Whatsoever doth interpret doth not translate And therefore here is an Argument for me It doth not translate ergo it is not a Translation And it doth not translate for then the Interpretation must be in the Hebrew which is denied to have been the use of the Hebrews as before especially in the same case where the name is given in the same letters which signifie the interpretation Therefore the Latine doth not translate when it giveth the Interpretation as in the former examples And the other Evangelists are not Translators when they interpret Hebrew or Syriack words So his Argument is for me And so my cause is not lost as to this point since also S. Austin professed in that of his against the Epistle of the Manichean that he would hear Reason against Antiquity at least surely he might do so in matter of fact Your third shift is in place of giving answer to make an objection asking why our Latine Translation was made authentique if the Church had made the Greek authentique Answ Shall I say that my Adversary doth not seem here to know well what shift to make since he carps at my answering by way of question But then they should be better advised than to make such Arguments as they will not be willing to answer an intergatory about in the same matter But he saies passing by some other words which seem too hot for him I know of no body who told you that the Greek Translation was made authentique by the Church I return upon him Was the Greek Translation made authentique or not He is not willing to say it was nor it was not But I press them Was it or was it not If it was not then their Translation was not of authentique Scripture and so again they do not translate but make Scripture If it was made authentique by the Church then what need of two authentique Translations Again if it were not made authentique by the Church then the Church could be without the authentique Gospel of Saint Matthew and yet have enough for salvation and therefore can we be as well without Traditions of the Church because I presume they profess so much reverence to the Gospel of S. Matthew that they will not say that Traditions are more necessary than the Gospel of S. Matthew And if it were made authentique absolutely by the Church we can better believe it by the vertue of Universal Tradition than they can believe their Latine by the authority of the Roman Church And if it be necessary as it is that Translations as such should agree with Originals and the question be which is the Original or where the Original is to be found they are in as great difficulty as we for then they have no certainty of an Original as to this Gospel to make use of for their Translation And if their Latine as to this was a Translation of a Translation we have the better cause in this because we trust rather to the first Translation And if some part of the Church made use of the Septuagints Translation in stead of the Hebrew and the Pen-men of the New Testament made so much use of it also as is confessed by learned men then may we rather make use of the Gospel of Saint Matthew in Greek than they in Latine Your fourth shift is to pretend to this knowledge by the harmony with other Gospels Ans A great deal he saies to this which I might spare the refutation of upon these reasons First because I compare the harmony of this Gospel to the other Gospels with the credit of the Church therefore do I not make this to be an Argument absolute 2. Because I spoke of the harmony betwixt this and other Gospels and not betwixt this Gospel and other parts of scripture and therefore he playes the Sophister the discourse is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereas then he does deny my Argument by compare of it with
N. 50. Here he tels us of an argument in the 14 num of the former treatise with infallible faith this is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and therefore he beggs the question And if they cannot prove the cause to be theirs with out our free graunt they are not like to have it And therefore this being denied him as before all that he would build thereupon must fall to wit therefore we must be assisted in this infallible knowledge by some other infallible means and no other infallible meanes can with any shadow of probability be said given to us but the infallible authority of the Church therefore her athority must be infallible as shall at large be shewed in the next chap. and then in the next after that that this infallible Church is the Roman and none but the Roman This is all wast and lost unles they could maintain it to be necessary charity in us to preserve their cause from starving by graunting that which it ought not to have And 2. Dato non concesto suppose there must be some other meanes of infallible deciding doubtful sense of Scripture I can make it a question whether they can plead the next right as if they came vacuam possessionem for the place may be ful by universal tradition which surely is not the same with the Roman Church for the whole surely is greater then the part and then also when you prove the Roman faith by universal tradition you would prove the Roman faith by the Roman and this is idem per idem And as for the 3. thing that this infallible Church is the Roman and none but the Roman which he saies he will prove in the last chapter surely if I may speak it without offence he does very well to refer it to the last for he may doe any thing before it But also since his supposition that we cannot be certain by the Scriptures infallibly of their own true sense in points necessary to salvation with infallible faith must fall without a better support we may be at our last already for if this be not good the other chapters make number And this number makes no weight He doth nothing in it but tell us that he hath done so and so which we interpret nothing Infallibility should not need many words In this N. 52. he would wipe off the suspicion of disrespect to Scipture in those termes he used and would lay a blame upon me for my censure of his words to this purpose His words were these if he would have given us a book for Iudge he would never have given us for our Iudge such a book as Scripture is which very often speaketh obscurely sometimes so prophetically that most would think it spake of the present time when it speaketh of the time to come that it speaketh of one person for example of David when it speaketh of another for example of Christ And much more I added to this effect that I might be rightly understood when I said that God would never have given us such a book for our judge To what of this he said in his former treatise I said Sir Let me have leave to speak affectionately to you Do not you see what disrespects of Scripture if not blasphemies your opinion doth miserably betray you to if you follow it Would any sober man let fall such words as if God had intended the Scripture for our judge such a book as Scripture is So you This I said And now he examins these words strictly and saies My adversary to avoide this argument so mangleth the sense that he may-make my words sound of a blasphemous disrespect reporting them as if I should have said if God had intended Scripture for our Iudge he would not have given us such a book as Scripture Ans Surely this is a false charge that I have mangled his words for I have given the full sense of them And this may be demonstrated by denying of the end which he makes to be to avoide the argument For I do not see any such difficulty in the argument that I should decline it and fall upon the person This is not my mind or manner But I could find fault with his dealing with me even here for he puts together that which I did not put together For he saies I accused him of a blasphemous disrespect whereas I said disrespect if not blasphemies and also the termes if not blasphemies without a grain of charity might have been construed without an affirmation Nether doth he right me or clear himself in the prosecution of his defence For my words in all reason doe represent as much as if I had added what he said I should have added These words if God had intended a book for our Iudge he would not have given us such a book as Scripture must connotate this sense that he would not have given us such a book as Scripture for our Iudge And therefore he needed not to quarrel upon the omission as if I had not dealt fairely with him consider it in the form of an hypothetical proposition if God had intended a book for our Iudge he would not have given us such a book as Scripture is what need be added for our Iudge when it is understood of course They know the rule Quod necessario subintelligitur nunquam deest That which is necessarily understood is never wanting And therefore have I not done his words any injury by mangling them nor yet by interpretation of them still they seem to sound such an imperfect book as Scripture and must do so if they have full sense in them But also if we might say what S. Austin said of the Heretiques words Bene haec acciperentur nisi ab eo dicerentur cujus sensus notus est so here these words might be better construed if they were not spoken by such whose sense was known For unless the Scripture be a book imperfect in regard of matter what need of tradition unless the Scripture were imperfect in regard of cleareness what needed an infallible judge to decide controversies about the sense Therefore he cannot get clearely off Aqua haeret And surely he doth not helpe himself or his cause by a like case he puts if God had intended the Scripture for sole Iudge in Law controversies he would never have given us such a book as Scripture is for our Iudge Doth this passe any handsome and respective reflexion upon Scripture As if it were no fitter to decide controversies in Divinity then in the Law And do they not think that we may have more reason to be bold with them than they with Scripture if God had intended that we should have been absolutely determined in matters of faith by General Council would he have given us such a pack'd Council as the Council of Trent was And yet moreover all he saies is besides the mark For this we doe not contend for that the scripture is the sole Judge
have been damned notwithstanding absolute necessity knowes no dispensations But therefore he produceth a Text for absolute necessity St. Iohn the 3.5 Except a man be borne of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdome of heaven Ans If we compare this verse with the third we need not make any other construction then of a necessity of being born from above Neither is it likely that Christ would have spoken no otherwise to Nicodemus of baptism had he meant it so And Ferus though he speaks of this sense ad literam yet hath he other senses thereof And if it be compared with the other Text St. Matthew 3.11 you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire as that Text is to be understood by an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so may this also notwithstanding the order of the words But 2. Dato non concesso that it is to be understood of Baptismal water yet the Rhemists upon the place do confess that in two cases Baptismal water is not necessary Namely in the case of martyrdome and if they have a desire of it but are prevented necessarily by death And the reason thereof is sufficient because God hath not bound his grace in respect of his own freedome to the Sacraments and so Ferus upon the place Deus enim non alligavit potentiam suam Sacramentis c. God hath not tied his own power to the Sacraments By his ordinate will indeed he gives grace by the Sacraments But nevertheles he can give it without the Sacrament Let them then tell me why Infants may not have rem Sacramenti without the seale as if God should have no favour for Infants because they cannot be qualified for the priviledge Let then the Rhemists and Ferus be compurgators for the pernicious doctrine of mine as he calls it And now whatsoever testimony he produceth of the necessity of baptism unles St. Austin's as to Infants they will stand very well with my termes in their ordinary sense which doth not contradict an ordinary necessity of it to Infants but again that all the Fathers were of this opinion I can deny I except Tertullian And St. Austin for those of age holdes but an ordinary necessity as appears in his 4. b. De Bapt. Contra Donat. 23. ch This ordinary necessity I stand for He himself intends no more by his testimonies Dr. Tayler's and others and therefore he absolves me himself but I cannot absolve him from ignorance in the Elench This doth not contradict me who do dispute now against an absolute necessity which he must maintain or else in this he comes short of his design And also that that allowance of baptism of Infants after it be done doth not inferre an absolute necessity of their being damned in the judgment of the Fathers if they were not Baptized if they will take Mr. Hookers opinion for all let them consult him in his 5. b. 33. p. where he saith I know there are many sentences found in the books and writings of the antient Fathers to prove both Ecclessiastical and Moral defects in the Ministers of Baptism a bar to the heavenly benefit thereof Now in Lay-men I trow there are Ecclesiastical defects for there is a defect in not being Ecclesiastical And therefore whether others mistake the Fathers either in the point of fact or in the reason of that allowance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But he gives me a Syllogism which we will not neglect because it is very rare with him He disputes upon my distinction of necessity thus This precept is necessarily to be fulfilled this precept is not plainly set down in Scripture therefore all necessary points are not plainly set down in Scripture This hath the face but not the form of a Syllogism But to pass that we answer therefore that this Syllogism doth not conclude contradictorily to the state of the question which is whether all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture Now all that is necessary to be done is larger then all that is necessary to be done unto Salvation Though all things necessary to be done unto Salvation are necessary to be done yet all that is necessary to be done is not necessary to be done unto Salvation The former are necessary necessitate medii the latter necessitate praecepti Now the knowledg of the former is simply necessary the knowledg of the latter is not so necessary Whatsoever is known to be praecepted is to be necessarily done but whatsoever is praecepted is not necessary to be known So that also his Syllogism was peccant in the fallacie of the consequent He followes me then your Answer will not helpe you out here whatsoever is necessarily inferred from the Scriptures is binding in the vertue of the principles why so because he saies because you cannot shew that this precept given to the parents is necessarily inferred out of Scripture So now he is upon the minor of the former Syllogism he would then prove it by a negative Induction Not out of the Institution of our Saviour for he also instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist not necessary for Infants Ans first this is no argument it doth not follow from the denial of one species to another because he did not institute the Eucharist as necessary for infants threfore he did not institute the Sacrament of baptism as necessary for Infants 2. they know there is not the same reason for the Institution of the Eucharist for Infants as for the Institution of baptism For this is administred to the child without its own faith the other is administred upon faith to confirmation 3. If they will be ruled by tradition and the authority of the Church the Eucharist was accounted also as necessary for Infants Now that tradition came from Christ as his institution or not if it did then there is some reason for baptism to Infants if not how shall we believe tradition or the authority of the Church He proceeds not out of substitution to Circumcision for so it should not be necessary to women To be even with them The high Priest was only of males the Pope succeeds the high Priest therefore the Popedome was not competible to Ioane some of them would fain have somewhat for woman to be proportionable to Circumcision of males towards the taking away of original sinne which should be an object of tradition But as the unmarried was included in the parent so the woman included under her husband as to this Yet such another argument we have then it should be necessary only for those of the Iewish nation As if Circumcision was inioyned to the Iew upon the quatenus of the nation and not as they were members of the Church under the same Covenant with Christians as to the substance thereof and therefore Eusebius saies of some of those under the law that they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they were reall Christians or in
Texts confirm the certainty of Traditions we grant it namely of those Traditions which were afterwards written but how do these Texts confirm the certain necessity of those that are not written And therefore thirdly He is mightily disappointed if he conceives those Texts should bind us to stand upon Traditions now more than ever for the formality of Tradition was there sunk in the writing and the matter of Tradition was the same with that which was writtten in his own confession unless he drives the Texts Heterogeneously to his own words And he impingeth upon the same stone again What wise man would put â—ut one light costing him nothing because it will be shining of its own nature unless you will needs have iâ— hidden because he hath now another light but so that even with both those lights many of his houshold will still remain iâ— darkness Ans He supposeth a light added to a light It is well then that Scripture is assured to be one light but his Tradition should be compared to a light when there is no other light namely when the Scripture is defective Secondly If he thinks Tradition is a light costing us nothing he may be deceived for it will cost a great deal of Scrutiny since we cannot see it shining of its own nature infallibly And thirdly If some be still in darknese with both those lights then surely they may be more in darkness with but one and that is Tradition therefore they should allow the people the light of the Scripture since both too little as he saies to some But fourthly What if one light put out the other in the true state of the question namely Scripture Tradition superadded in matter And what wise man will light a straw candle in the Fathers expression when the Sun shines the Sun-light of Scripture puts out the straw-light of Traditions condemning those who teach for Doctrines Traditions of men which the Romanist does in some proportion And fifthly what wise man would have such a light which serves his turn best when it shines least for Traditions if we believe our Adversaries are a covered dish dainties to be kept private for those who are fit to receive them the more wise and perfect men which may teach them to others The mystery of Salvation that is made common by writing but the mystery of Tradition is put under a bushel The mystery of the Trinity is delivered in Scripture but the mystery of the Trent Traditions must not be familiarly known So then say they what they will or can we shall sooner find an extinguisher for the light of the rush candle than they for the light of the Sun But if you say that if Scripture had not been given us we should have had a more certain Tradition given us So he delivers my words which were not so but thus If Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us as the Gospel was before it was written Now some difference there is betwixt given us and left us for that which is left to us is intended for our constant use which that which is given doth not connotate So some Pontificians will say the Scripture was given upon particular occasion but was not left to the Church as a fixed universal rule But there is yet more betwixt us about my words we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us so I said he reports me thus we should have had a more certain Tradition given unto us A more certain Tradition given and a Tradition more certainly conveighed are not altogether the same the former supposeth the matter of Tradition as not certain and this we can deny as to those times when there was no Scripture as written the other speaks de modo tradendi which comes closer to our question For we can perswade our selves that God who is graciously provident for his Church wherein he hath placed his Name would have taken care that if there had not been a certain direction in writing the matter of necessary Doctrine and practice should have been more certainly communicated to us So then he thrives very little by compare of the Christian Church with the Jewish although the Christian Church be more noble For first the compare must be of the Jewish with the whole Christian Church because the Jewish Church Proselyts being included therein namely Proselyts of the Covenant as they were distinguished was all the Church there was And secondly Because no part of the whole Church can compare with the Jewish Church as to priviledges and then by this reckoning how little of Nobility will fall to their share Thirdly As the Tradition which was it whereby the matter of Scripture was proposed was for the time necessary before the matter of Scripture was written so also must the Tradition of the Christian Church be considered as in relation to the time before which the matter of the New Testament was written therefore he should have pleaded if he would have it done patly that there was any Tradition of Faith after the Old Law was written beside what was written which was to be believed unto Salvation equally to what was written and then have drawn down a parallel Line of proportion of the same though he would have more nobility for the Christian Church Thirdly If the nobleness of a Church be antecedent to more certain Tradition as he thinks then how happened it that there was so little a time betwixt the preaching of the Gospel and the writing of it It seems then if God provides for Churches according to the nobleness of them that the better provision for the Church is by Scripture The Christian then hath a more certain way of Faith than by Tradition And as for means of securing Tradition in the Christian Church which he compares with the Jewish in he hath no cause to bragg For first they cannot say or prove that they have all Traditions in number formal and material Secondly They do not practice all How many are there which St. Basil speaks of in his Tract de Sp. Sanct. which they observe not Thirdly The safety of them is in the whole Church and yet forsooth every one must not know them Fourthly If so then have they reason to blush that they have been more careful to keep Tradition than Scripture and particularly of the Hebrew Copy of St. Matthew and is this for their credit Fifthly Are the Scriptures preserved uncorrupt or not If not how have they been faithful as before If so then why do their learned men obtrude the Authentiqueness of their Latin upon this account that when this Edition was made the Scriptures were pure and uncorrupted but corrupted since Again the Tradition of Christ's Primitive Church before the Scripture was written and sufficiently promulged was to be believed upon her sole Authority Ans If he takes that Tradition inclusively to the Apostles who preached that which they did write
afterwards and take Tradition for the matter of what was written we grant it if but he takes tradition of the primitive Church to be that which was derived to after times and was not written we deny it to be believed upon her sole Authority In the former sense it is true but not pertinent in the latter pertinent but not true And indeed this was the notion of Traditions for the first times namely to be that sâ—â—â—â—e of doctrine which did comprehend the materialls of faith 〈◊〉 to be any thing different from Scripture or diverse 〈…〉 first of the Gal. 8. doth not signifie contra but praeâ—â—â— from Scripture So he will finde Irenaeus to mean it And so St. Cyrill of Jerusalem in his 5. Cat. 117. p of the gr last Ed. makes it to be upon account no other than 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the System out of the Holy Scriptures about every of those things conteined And again 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for things of faith were not composed as it pleased men but the most pertinent things being gathered out of all Scripture do make up the doctrine of faith And again as the seed of mustard in a little grain doth contein many branches so faith it self in few words doth comprehend the knowledge of piety that is in the old and new Testament And what followes but that text which he my adversary named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see therefore Brethren and hold the Traditions So then if he takes Tradition in the first sense the Church was infallible therein by the Apostles if in the second the Tradition was infallibly Scripture and the Church believed it upon that account And that Traditions did not bind either in their own virtue or without Scripture they may see in St. Basil who yet speaks much for them So in the seventh ch of the Holy Ghost where speaking of the controversie whethre they were to say of the Son of God with whome or by whome he hath these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. this is not sufficient to us that it is a Tradition of the Fathers for even they did follow the will of Scripture having taken principles out of testimonies which a little before we proposed to you out of Scripture God therefore said by his Apostles that the Traditions then were infallible being in matter the same with what they wrote for their Authority Now if God said this shall we upon his fallible discourse for even Councils are fallible in their discourse come to say the Church's Traditions are further infallible then agreeable to his word though God never said so and never yet expressed any such infallibility of the Church And thus I return him his own words mutatis mutandis And so my Argument out of Irenaeus is not yet refuted Neither doth he take away my use of Irenaeus testimony in the next paragr For as to my Argument what he saies is not appliable It was thus out of his Authority If the Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us as the Gospel was before it was written but the Scripture is now left to us therefore no need of certain conveighance of tradition to us This Syllogism he makes no offer of answer to for that which he saies in a Parenthesis though you cannot invent the means by which Tradition should have been conveighed more certainly supposing there had been no Scripture I can receive without prejudice to my Argument for whatsoever Hypothetically should have been done had not there been Scripture yet now since we have Scripture we have no such need of we now dispute upon the fact not against the supposition Therefore from the dint of the ratiocination he digresseth to an observation of disrespect in me to St. Irenaeus because I said Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations did rely onely upon Tradition Ans He is in this deceived To assent to Tradition in the matter of it and not to assent to the matter upon the sole Authority of Tradition are not such opposites as he imagines for they may well agree Therefore though the Father said they did assent to Tradition as to the matter yet not by Tradition as the manner Tradition was the objectum materiale not the objectum formale of their Faith And the next words as he also perhibits the Fathers words do defend my answer having Salvation written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost So then they were assured of the Doctrine of Salvation by the Holy Ghost then they did not believe that Tradition upon the sole Authority of the Church So this contradicts my Adversary and makes for me not onely by consequence because it is against him but directly for then we can as well be assured of Scripture by the Holy Ghost have no such need then of the authority of the Church as to salvation though the church were infallible which is one of the things to be proved and cannot And yet besides this tradition in the sense of the Father was in the matter of it Scripture and therefore hath no consanguinity with the true state of the question So then we may conclude in the negative they did not rely upon or believe upon the sole account of that very tradition yet if they had it would not conclude against our cause because that tradition is not the same with what belongs to the question To be civil to an Adversary in this number N. 14. all the sense of it may be resolved into this discourse If the radition of the Church testifying her own infallibility in proposing for Gods Word that which she delivereth for Gods word be to be believed then she is to be believed as proposing that to be Gods Word which is not written Ans This hath been abundantly agitated before with our indemnity to the Plaintiffe but since he repeats I do not And we answer First the consequence is not clear especially if we extend it to that which is not grounded in Scripture if he understands it of that which is grounded in Scripture it is not proper to the question As to that which is not grounded in Scripture we may still deny the major Tradition universal of the Church may be worthy of assent as to the truth of Scripture to be the Word of God and not so of that which is delivered beside Scripture which also is held by others against them and the reason is not yet disproved because there was more necessity of the Faith of Scripture than that which is delivered beside Scripture and therefore may we well suppose a greater assistance to the proposing of Scripture than any thing diverse Deus non deficit in necessariis Why do they assert infallible assistance to General Councils not to private Doctors or to a National Council Namely because others are to be directed by the General Councils well then the Church universal might be more assisted for the proposing of
take him to mean that Aerius was accounted an heretick for this his opinion exclusively to other opinions in a negative precision and then I say it is not true And to bring it to the test one of his Authors shall be mine St. Austin in his Catalogue of heresies N. 53. He tells us of Philaster that he had made an enumeration of heresies and after him more perfectly Epiphanius and he came after them and he gives us an account of the Arrians from Aerius and several things he does say of him that he was sorry that he was not a Bishop and that having fallen in Arrianorum heresin into the heresie of the Arrians he added also some proper opinions saying that we ought not to pray or offer oblations for the dead and that set fasts were not solemnly to be observed and also that a Presbyter ought not to be by any difference distinguished from a Bishop And some said of him that they were also Eneratites and Apotactites So then the result hereof is this if he could not say Aerius was accounted an heretick onely for this Nay St. Austin doth contradistinguish here heresie to proper opinions So he might be an heretick and not for proper opinions because he had fallen into the heresie of the Arrians yea and some account him an heretick for not distinguishing betwixt a Bishop and a Presbyter therefore though his proper opinions were in the judgement of St. Austin heretical yet can it not be said that he was accounted an heretick onely for denying prayers for the dead which was to be shewed by me And if for this opinion disjunctively yet not for denying prayer for the dead in his sense which was to be shewed by him And therefore upon the whole matter we cannot submit to Tradition as infallible because this Tradition in the Roman sense bears false witness of its self nor to the Church if it fallibly pretends infallible Tradition Neither can prudent reason make infallible assent unless the conclusions could be better than their premises Prudent reason were more apt to make Science which they have no cause to be inclinable to neither because it is more opposit to their implicit Faith And he hath no cause therefore to say How many true Beleevers commended in Scripture cannot give so prudent a reason for what they believed Ans All the reason of Faith which can be given if we take Faith in the acception of an infallible assent must be grounded upon infallible principles if any believed upon other account it was not properly Faith and therefore it cannot be said in propriety of the notion which the Romanist also stands upon that they believed Secondly If he takes Faith in a looser sence for an assent upon humane Authority this is not to the question and we can allow Tradition its influence hereunto Thirdly If he means that they could not give a more prudent reason for what they beleived as to others that should ask them a reason of their Faith this we can yield as to universal Tradition that by the inartificial Argument of Authority we can give no more prudent reason than by Tradition But this doth not hit the question whether the testimony private of the Spirit of God makes not a better assurance of Faith to our selves though this is not demonstrable to others that we have this assurance by the Spirit of God Therefore fourthly This will not do the business unless what he saies he proves from Scripture We have urged the contrary in the example of the Beraeans and the term believing in Scripture is not seldom taken not of an internal act of Faith subjective but an external profession of faith objective And so Simon Magus is said to have believed Here he gives us occasion to wish he had done so before as he does here in putting his sense into some form thus Faith being an infallible assent controversies concerning Faith cannot be determined so as to end them effectually but by an infallible living judg who can hear you me be heard by you me but no other than the Church can with any ground be held to be this living Judge therefore she must be held to be the Judge Ans First to the major and we say that it begs the question in two Suppositions First That there is a necessity of controversies in points of Salvation And secondly that it is necessary to Salvation that all controversies though not in points of Salvation should infallibly be determined When these two suppositions are sufficiently made good we shall grant him the major and yet then also that infallible Judge is yet bound to judge by law of Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And then as to the minor we say secondly This speaks for the Church universal which then according to my Adversaries Principles should alwaies have a true Pope and a true standing General Council or else we should think God had not provided for his Church ad semper Now if it be said some controversies may arise which are not so necessary to be decided in order to Salvation then he destroys his major which goes in part upon that Supposition and so in this he is one of us Therefore thirdly We can retort his Argument mutatis mutandis Faith being an infallible assent requires an infallible Authority But the Church is not yet proved to have an infallible Authority therefore it must be the Scripture Fifthly If he means his infallible Living Judge of the Roman Church we deny that this Judge will explicate all doubts for how hath it ended all controversies in the Trent Council Indeed that Council hath made more about the sense of ambiguous definitions and therefore though his major proposition were true de posse which yet we deny upon the former considerations yet we were to seek de velle and then should we be never a whit the nearer And as touching that Text whereby he would prove that the Bible cannot end all controversies because it cannot end the controversie about it with the Arrians these three are one We say first in ingenuity he needed not to have taken notice of it Secondly We should not by right have disputed the subject of the question whether this or that be Scripture or not Our dispute is about the predicates of scripture Thirdly the Arrians were sufficiently condemned by another Text as before and therefore there is no such necessity of the question Fourthly We rather believe the Church than the Arrian herein But let it be put to the pinch and there were more Faith required in it than the matter afforded can the Church determin it by her own Authority infallibly It not why doth he raise the dust If it can why is it not formally done Therefore either this Text hath not given necessary occasion to an infallible Judge or the infallible Judge hath deceived us in not taking the occasion And therefore to put his other discourse into a shorter and better forme
But first The Church Universal doth not say it Secondly who of them hath proved that the Church is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they bear witness of themselves therefore their testimony is not true not in modo if it were true in materia Thirdly What the Church can say amounts but to a prudential motive or congruous inducement but what is it which grounds Faith and binds Faith and makes it a divine belief if not what is said in Scripture Without this what is the Church but a company of men in naturalibus The Roman doth not so much believe this or that because God saies it but they believe God saies it because the Church saies it But the Church virtual in the Pope Representative in a Council diffusive in the people signifies nothing without religion The question then is what religion makes the Church which we are to believe Not reason satisfies us in this because some principles of Religion do transcend reason and because reason cannot by its principles produce Faith of proper name then we must have somwhat which is supposed as a common principle whereby true Religion is discerned Not the Church For the question is which is the Church What then but Scripture Let them then think upon the former Texts for sufficiency of Scripture which if they were acknowledged would save us this dispute And let them think upon that Text Esa the 8. the 20. To the Law and to the Testimony If they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them That which is referred to another for direction is subordinate thereunto The Church is referred to the Law and to the Testimony therefore it is subordinate If they speak not according to this word as written it is because there is no light in them Another Text may be named 1. Epist of St. Peter the 1. ch 23. ver Being born again not of corruptible seed but incorruptible by the Word of God which liveth and abideth for ever So the Apostle from whence we thus argue That which is begotten of the Word is subordinate to it the Church is begotten by the Word Therefore their argument is retorted by the contrary For the Word in the substance of it must be before the Church because the Church is begotten by the Word therefore the Church must depend upon the Word which liveth and abideth for ever and this better suits the standing charracter of Scripture than the loose and fluent or fluxive way of Tradition And how comes Tradition into the world By the first Church they will say Well and how came the first Church to be such What did they joyn together in the profession of Religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as some say the world came together by the casual concurrence of Atoms The first Church viritim was begottten by the Word through the Spirit so in the ver before seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit Then all is to be resolved into the Word quod est primum in generatione est ultimum resolutione So Aquinas Omne reducitur ad principium All is to be reduced to the first principles Therefore they will never reconcile St. Paul and Irenaeus unless they admit my distinction of the Church Then that which Frenaeus saith will well agree with that of St. Paul St. Paul saies as we commonly read it the Church is the Pillar and ground of truth St. Irenaeus saith the Scripture is the Pillar of truth Both agree for subordinata non pugnant Subordinates make no warre Let them not therefore tell me that what God tells me by his Church I am to admit this we admit But let them tell me how I shall infallibly know that he tells me so by the Church And let them tell me how I shall know the Church but by letters of credence namely in Scripture How can I divine whether there is to be a Chureh and which is the true Church and which the true Religion without Scripture And Nemo tenetur derinare as the saying So that that which he saies that the Church is first believed independently on Scripture dependâ— neither upon Scripture nor Catholick Church nor reason Take Scripture in the matter of it and that which he saies hath no consistency In saving Religion there is nothing before it not only in signo rationis but also in time because the Church is begotten of the word of God We deny not that the Church is made use of to dispose us to faith of Scripture but this doth not resolve us because it self of it selfe resolvs but into a moral capacity which makes not faith properly called not faith Divine therefore in Genere Credibilium the first proposition to the Church is that the Scripture is the word of God and without its testimonies of the Church it cannot be said to be credible in the sense of divine faith Therefore if he meanes that the Church is first believed independently on Scripture namely upon the account of humane faith we may grant it of the universal Church but what is this to our purpose since we are disputing about faith divine If he takes it of divine faith this would be to purpose but that it is not true Yet he proceeds So he that begins to be a Christian cannot admit of Scripture as men admit of the first principles of sciences Ans Nor do we say so Ordinarly he begins with prudential motives from without he useth arguments drawn from out of Scripture but the question is whether these motives are productive of Faith in him And he seems to say as much as deâ—â—ses it because he saies in respect of us the Church is first believed independently of Scripture So then the way by the Church is imperfect as the way of knowledge by those things which are more known quoad nos But in the way of Faith which makes the assent more firm and certain we must begin with Scripture upon which the Church depends To joyn issue then We at first lead men to the Faith of Scripture by the way of the Church as the Samaritans were led to Christ by the voice of the woman But Faith doth not rest here because they who deny the Scripture may deny the Church and may question its credibility Therefore since the Authority of the Church doth de se terminate its self in the Testimony of men we would have our Faith by such a way as is proportionable to it which if it be Faith divine must rely upon some divine Authority And this way the Scripture must be more known than the Church because by the Scripture we know the Church in a distinct knowledge And without it can be no more than an Individuum vagum Surely it is Scripture which makes Individuum demonstrativum And they are wont to prove it determinatum as in Petrus by the Scripture And as for the Criticism in the forenamed Text of Scripture to Timothy about the
buckler it is enough to us that he cannot or does not prove it But then 2. He is wanting in another thing because he doth not produce his reasons against our reasons let them draw the Sword and cut the knots if they cannot unty them Let them bring forth their strong reasons as the Prophet speakes When as then he saies bring against my illimited Text another Text limiting we say that the cause and our office is upon the negative until he brings another Text for his sense or gives reason for it or gives us the consent of all ages of the Church we have nothing more to thinke besides what hath been said then that he had reason to say more then what follows the necessity of the people which was the prime reason why Christ gave this infalliblity was greater in ages remoter from Christ But this was answered to by retortion that then Traditions it seemes now are not to be accounted equally certain And he answers now that which he had better have kept in He saies now it is harder to prove now that Christ did such miracles was crucified did rise again then it was presently after these thinges happened yet all these things be as infallibly true now as they were then and as infallible so I say of traditions which for all this doe not lose a sufficient measure of infallible certainty Ans Traditions then were but equall to Scripture Traditions now are not equall to Traditions then Therefore they are not now equall to Scripture And this spoyles their Traditions and contradicts the Trent Council which determins that they are to be received Pari pietatis affectu And so hath he lost his hold of Traditions by his own words Neither will it save him to say that they are now as infallible as then in themselves but not to us for so is the Scripture infallible in it self without the Church as they confess but it doth not so appear to us they say 2. They are to make good if they can degrees of infallible assistance by the least degree of infallibility But to goe on what if there be no such necessity c. Ans He seemes to be towards a punctum reflexionis here well if there be no such necessity of equall assistance then my answer to such Texts is the better And then let them take the rule which their own do use Deus non deficit in necessaris nec abundat in superfluis God doth not abound in things superfluous nor is wanting in things necessary But then also if it be not necessary why have my adversaries so much pleaded the necessity of an infallible judge Indeed it might be if God had pleased and yet not necessary by necessity of consequent but they are wont to prove it to be because it is necessary He goes on Did not the Church alone serve to decide all controversies before the Scripture was written c. We answer as often before The Church is not thence concluded infallible put it into forme that which decides all controversies is infallible the Church before Scripture was written did decide all controversies Therefore it is infallible No. We first deny the proposition That which decides all controversies decides them infallibly does not follow This cannot be proved less will not serve them Then 2. To the assumption we can deny it it did not decide all controversies put case it did decide all necessary controversies yet not all controversies And we must have a judge they say to decide all controversies whatsoever And 3. If the Church then before Scripture was written did decide all controversies whatsoever then surely there is not that assistance infallible now given to the Roman Church because notwithstanding they have the Scripture and Traditions yet they cannot decide all controversies If they can they are not faithfull and then that of St. Cyprian is not due to them now that perfidia non potest habere accessum If they cannot where is the equall assistance and then also what was decided by the Church was decided by the Scripture in the substance of it though not then written so that he had no cause to contradistinguish this decision of the controversies to the use of Scripture Again he saies did not the old Scripture testifie as much as was necessary that Iesus Christ was the true Messias Yes to what end then was Iohn Baptist sent to testifie this Ans First if the old Scripture did sufficiently testifie of the Messias then that which I have said concerning the sufficiency of the whole Canon is surely sufficient if it did not sufficiently testifie then his argument is none 2. There is not par ratio for the adding infallibility to the Church after the Canon is consigned as for St. Iohns testimony notwithstanding the old Scripture More might be requisit for the settling of the Primitive Church then after because the Church after was to be grounded in the Primitive But he saies there is as good reason In ages after the first when the Church should grow from a grain of mustard seed c. This proves nothing unless there might arise such a controversie which could not upon Salvation be decided without an infallible Judge Let them prove this and they will say somthing If not this will not be to the purpose that several controversies in such a space might arise And would not the same number of necessary points material and formal serve as many more thousands of Christians And those controversies which he names we have spoken to nay when they have as they suppose an infallible Judge are all controversies ended Let them bethink themselves what differences amongst them are yet dependent as before We waite therefore for the proof of such a promise of assistance extended to infallibility for other ages of the Church It is not enough for him to say why might not Christ for any thing you know thinke this a sufficient reason A posse in the premises will not make an actuality in the conclusion 2. there is a difference betwixt a reason after the thing is apparent and a reason to prove the thing to be if they can soundly prove to us that there is such an assistance given in promise to the Church in all ages then we should sooner be induced to the acknowledgment of his reason But there is nothing in the reason till the reason prove the thing 3. If words in Scripture were to be taken allwaies simply according to the termes what need would there then be of an infallible Judge of the sense of Scripture Therefore let them chuse which they will do whether they will allwaies have Scripture meant according to the uppermost import of the letter if so then the sense of Scripture is plain which they have denied if not then may they admit a limitation of that assistance spoken of Matthew 28.3 This forme of modality why might not should not one would think become the high mode of infallible assistance
This manner of speech might serve us against their infallibility but no speech serves infallibility but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And all those testimonies were given to the Iewes as ill as they were disposed Ans he seemes to mistake what I said formerly about indisposition to receive infallibility For I spoke of it in order to those who should receive the gift of it for the Church and he now seems to speake of it in order to the people But 2. Suppose there were as good a disposition the possibility hereof cannot conclude the same necessity of the same assistance and some of their men are named by some of ours for denying any such disposition towards such a measure of the spirit as formerly was given That the Scripture hath still the same certainty he saies categorically is apparently false speaking as you speake in order to assure us c. Ans All his reasons are invalid For as for the first that I confess some books of Scripture were formerly not acknowledged by all which now are received this is of no weight because it is sufficient to my discourse that they have still the same certainty from the time of their general reception And 2. They have in themselves allwaies the same credibility as well as his Traditions as he hath noted before And that many and a good many books of Scripture are quite lost is first in those termes at least a supposition Whether any be lost is yet work for Tishbi specially whether many much more whether a good many but it is obvious to a Romanist that denies the Scripture to be sufficient to find it imperfect in the matter In ingenuity he should have said nothing herein lest he should be interpreted for his own ends As the Socinian who denies Christs satisfaction to prove his opinion denies Christ's Divinity that so the satisfaction should not be sufficient so the Romanist lest the Scripture should be thought to be a sufficient rule saies a good part of it is lost Thus with their honesty they have lost their modesty Secondly let them again consider how much prejudice comes to their Church which they say is the depositary of Christian Doctrine upon the loss of a good many books of Scripture Thirdly yet dato non concesso suppose so yet that which doth remain is surely as sufficient as the old Scripture without all the new Fourthly my words do not engage me in this debate because they are of a capacity to be understood of that Scripture which doth remain Fifthly If any be lost me thinks as the Sibills books the rest should bear a better price And as to his other exceptions about the sense of Scripture about the Sacrament of the Eucharist or of Baptism whether to Infants or to be a Priest or a Bishop was to have power to sacrifice or absolve or not we say first that we have said enough already And we say that we need not say any more in these points till they make good these postulates First whether the exact knowledge of these points be necessary to Salvation Secondly whether if not they can yet prove an infallible Judge in all points of controversie appointed to us by God And as to the last they are first to prove a real sacrifice in the time of the Gospel otherwise there will be no object for a special act of a Priest as such And absolution simply we deny not their absolution to be necessary to salvation and that it can make attrition to be as good as contrition are tasks for them to prove who affirm them And as for that he saies that then they had the Apostles themselves or the known Disciples of the Apostles to tell them the meaning of those words He does not well consider what he saies if they gave the sense of those places which are obscure where are these interpretations why have we not a tradition of them if not they say nothing if so they must derogate from the Church's fidelity because it hath justly communicated and handed to us traditions of other matters then are written and not the sense of those Texts which are written 2. We are yet entirely able to hold the buckler in the defence of our position that there is no such need of an infallible exposition of those Texts which contain points necessary for faith or practice The water where the lambe might wade was clear enough then and had been yet clear enough had not the great Fisher troubled the waters for better fishing If the point of the diall be not fixed they may vary the shadow but the sun keeps it regular motion So if their gnomon be loose they may make the time to go for them but the sun of righteousnes Jesus Christ the same yesterday and to day and for ever as the author to the Hebrews speaks doth in an uniforme and regular course shine in the Scripture and the doctrine of Christ by the twelve Apostles is equally set for all times only the Roman makes the variation who would have the Scripture follow the Church and not the Church the Scripture We need not then yet their Oedipus who hath a foot so great that he must wear a slipper The following words in this section are somewhat cloudy and they do need a clue to shew us their right connexion His drift seems in them to be this to make me destroy my self by two positions first that the Church is secure from damnative errour though not from all simple errour the second this Heresie consisted in opposition to clear Scripture Ans One would have thought that a bad conclusion could not lawfully be begotten of these two positions since specially the second is such as was antiently held by those who do understand distinctly points of divinity And also I had thought once that he had granted the former though now pro re naâ—a he doth think otherwise I am sure he had more reason to stand to it then to abide the perill of the negative Well but what from hence Whence all those must needs be Hereticks who opposed clear Scripture Therefore all those who hold those prime points in which you and we differ with us against you were hereticks for they held these points which you say are against clear Scripture Ans The Church is considerable in the quantity of it so it is universal or particular it is considerable in the quality invisible or visible the Church invisible is distributively secure from all damnative errour the universal visible may be secure from all damnative errour This we say still But by what engine is this drawen into his conclusion which he saies should proceed partly from this position But 2. What if we grant all that those who have been with them against us in the points of difference were Hereticks it is but like for like for they familiarly give us no other name then Hereticks And I think we shall do very few Learned and sober men any harme
the Word or by the Sword And therefore consideratis considerandis if he hath no other hold for his Hypothesis he hath none And so Lycurgus the Lawmaker might well die in Crete for his fiction that the laws he gave the people came from Apollo of Delphos As to the charge against their Church about the Millenary opinion he would here answer it N. 3. that it was not admitted by the supreme pastour of the Church defining with the Church assembled in a Council Ans first If this were a reason it would destroy all the traditions for three hundred years because they were not admitted by the supreme Pastour defining with the Church in a general Council for they say there was no council for the first 300 years But secondly was not tradition then an infallible rule if it was that is no answer if not the Scripture or there was no infallible rule at all and this contradicts them in both for they say there was an infallible rule and not Scripture But he would also say it was not generally admitted by the Church diffused or universal Ans But I hope the diffused Church adds no authority to a matter of faith This was indeed Alphonsus a Castro's opinion but my adversary was not of capacity for that conceit because he annexeth authority to the Pope and a Council and if the diffused Church which includes the people have any moment toward credibility why is it denied to them to have the Judgment of private discretion since their consent also makes a suffrage And as for the diverse Fathers not holding it as a Tradition they may excuse us certainly unless they will prove it He should not surely prove it by Iustin for he is accounted for it himself though many did not acknowledg it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is sufficient for a Tradition Is it not If not let them shew more for other Traditions which they hold if so then that went for one And then the many were not Fathers St. Austin otherwise Neither doth this conclude against Catholick Tradition in all use but may in point of faith till we be as certain of Tradition Till that time I am satisfied with the former place of Cyrill of Ierusalem and when we shall be as certain of Tradition derived from the Apostles times through all ages of the Church in points of Faith then we shall not urge this plea that if this opinion of an Apostolical Tradition was so current in the Church upon the credit of one Papias at first how shall we be ever sure in the account of Traditions which is which N. 4. He hath learned to speak here high that he might at least at last go off with noyse He calls it a demonstration which yet by his own words is to be held up by a supposition Neither upon the supposition supposed will it be very neare a demonstration for it concludes not per se but by accident and also it concludes rather or primarily negatively that other Churches are not the infallible Judge And if the discourse were good it would come to this that other Churches should fare the worst for their modesty and the Roman should fare the better for their impudency And if the antient Church was infallible notwithstanding it did not say that it was infallible or else they differ from the antient Church in an essentiall praedicate then their Church is noâ— infallible notwithstanding it saies that it is infallible So then upon the whole matter his supposition is not admitted and therefore could they well prove their Church to be fairer for this priviledge then any other the supposition being admitted yet since it is not admitted it proves nothing in re nor by their own confession And yet if it were admitted his discourse would not make him to be as good as his word in a demonstration And yet this ratiocination of his instead of an un-answerable argument against us but is proved not to be so may be an unanswerable argument against them that they lie at catch and have need of that which all other Churches have left and also it proves that they have no better proof What I said more to what he said more by anticipation he saies nothing to But he ingageth himself in the end to a better account of the Roman Church So then I have for the present my discharge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet his Epiphonema is this Petrae durities nulli magis quam ferienti nota And not to be behind hand with him I return him that of St. Basil 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 FINIS Errata which the judicious and can did Reader is desired to observe PAge 71 l. 9. r. uncreated p. 84. l. 6. r. 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Dr. Potter p. 726. l. 30. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 730. l. 5. r. decretory weapons p. 742. l. 15. r. now p. 744. l. 26. r. a posse non ad non posse non valet p. 200. which should be p. 930. l. 28 9. r. Cardinal's p. 946. l. 3. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ibid. l. 13 r. Prudentia p. 953. l. 4. r. qui ne le croit p. 964. l. 10. r. by images p. 975. l. 2. r. Greek Latin Edition p. 977. l. 19. r. without indempnity p 980. l. 7. r. Antoninus p. 985. l. 16. r. Encratites p. 994. l. 23. r. joyn with her the Church p. 1000 l. 21 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 1060. l. 19. r. one p. 1066. l. 14. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The mistakes of the Printer in false pointing litterals and folio's may be rectified in reading
of Scripture and Traditions were agreeable to the substance of Scripture or not if so then they hold their virtue by Scripture If not they remain under debate whether they were infallible Neither is Tradition before Scripture to be confounded with traditions after Scripture We can grant more to the former than we can to the latter both in the substance of the matter and in the manner of certification And for the time after the old Testament was written he doth well to say that it remained almost solely and alone to the Jews For what was Iob and why might not others of the learned Gentils travail for divine knowledge as well as Pythagoras and Plato and Orpheus into Egypt as Iustin Martyr saith of them Ninthly he answers to the cause put of a Pope's differing from the Council upon a question he saies nothing shall be deferred and yet no peril For if it were necessary to have a present definition the Holy Ghost would not forget to inspire the parties requisit to do their duties Ans Again What necessity then of every controversie to be ended Secondly How should the people know whether the business required a present definition Surely they may know by this that it did not require a present definition because if so the Holy Ghost would not have forgot to have inspired the parties requisite to do their duties Well then also we can say that we may be as confident that what is not clearly delivered in Scripture doth not require a full definition because if it had the Holy Ghost would not have forgot to inspire the Pen-men of Scripture to do their duties In the tenth answer he is very suspensive how to declare himself in the point of Ecclesiastical Monarchy He saies a Monarch in some Nations could not do all things without a Parliament But he thinks himself on the surer side that he is sufficiently assisted when he defineth with a Council Ans First why do they not speak out and tell us which is which The Church can end all controversies as they say but not that capital controversie about the Church That whereby all things are to be made manifest is that not to be made manifest We must see all things by the light but the light must be private Do they declaim against private Spirits and will not let us publiquely know the power of the Pope comparately to a Council and yet they together must be the subject of publique Authority And why do they tell us that the Scripture cannot prove it self and therefore we must not resolve our Faith in that and yet we must resolve our selves in the Authority of the Church and yet the Church cannot tell us where this Authority Supreme is or will not And it is all one to us for we are in the dark as well by their want of will to shew us light as of power But since it seems we may be saved in the opinion of the Jesuit or in the opinion of the Sorbonist we draw this advantage from it that notwithstanding we know not infallibly which part of the contradiction to hold in points of question we may yet be secured against damnation pendenti lite And what controversie is of such moment for an infallible Judge as who it is Secondly Infallibility may be in one as well as in many since it comes by the assistance of the Holy Ghost then if they think God hath provided absolutely the most plain and expedite way for the direction of his Church this must be placed in the Pope without a Council I hope the Holy Ghost needs no Council which cannot soon and easily be made in all the essentials And therefore he should not have compared the Pope with a Monarch but he should have compared upon this reckoning a Monarch with the Holy Ghost Then though a Monarch could not do all things without a Parliament yet a Pope might do all without a Council because the Pope should be infallibly assisted by the Holy Ghost as the Apostles were but they do not think so of a Monarch Again they think that the Pope is of divine institution and that a King is meerly a creature of the peoples and therefore he that hath a divine institution must needs have more divine assistance Again when he defineth with a Council he defineth not so much as Head of the Church but as a Bishop in communi with the rest as indeed anciently the custom was and this derogates from the Monarchy of the Church And if he had a priority of order this doth not infer a priority of Jurisdiction over all the Church which Pelagius and Gregory Bishops of Rome abhorred Eleventhly he saies not one Council have been opposite to another Ans This proposition in terms is not true The Council of Constantinople under Leo the Emperour decreed against Images The second Council of Nice decreed for them And what do they think of Pope Vigilius his judgement betwixt the Council of Chalcedon and the fifth Council of Constantinople about the Epistle of Ibas whether it conteined heresie or not And is not the African Council against Appeals opposite to the Trent Council which adds to the Catholique Apostolique Church the Roman as making the Roman to be omnium Ecclesiarum matrem magistram of all Churches the mother and mistress But this hath been touched before He goes on In the Nicene he the Pope erred not as you will grant nor in the three next General Councils as the Church of England grants Ans He saies well He erred not in the first Nicene But this antecedent will not make a conclusion or consequent that therefore he hath not or cannot erre in others It followeth not from a negative surely of one act to a negative of the power they are to prove that he cannot erre which is infallibility But secondly We say also that he could not erre in the other General Councils neither as Head of the Church because he was not Head of the Church He might have erred as a Bishop of Rome but as Head of the Church he could not erre not that we do assert him to have been Head of the Church but because we say he was not Head of the Church and therefore could not erre as such He goes on He subscribed not in the Council of Ariminum how then did he erre in it Yea because he subscribed not that Council is never accounted lawful by any but Arrians Ans He seems now to come to terms more moderate Before he speaks of Councils to be confirmed by the Pope Subscription is less and more general Every confirmation includes eminently a subscription but every subscription makes not a confirmation For they will not deny that other Bishops were wont to subscribe Secondly they may know that the 5. council of Constantinople went for good without his Subscription nay notwithstanding what he published for the tria Capitula which were condemned in the foresaid Council Therefore if they have