you alleage there is no mention at all of Scripture but onely of preaching and teaching Likewise S. Hillarius most expresly auoucheth euery where the authoritie of the Nicene Councell against the Arrians and yet you pretend that he would haue heresies against the Trinitie Ar. 11. Hilar. li. 4. de Trin. to be confuted not by mens iudgement but by Gods word You marke well what he doeth in that place How heresies must be confuted is not his purpose but to answere the Scriptures that the Heretikes abused and misconstrued which he there had recited at large therefore he saith Cessent propriae hominum opiniones neque se vltra diuinam constitutionem humana iudicia extendant Let mens proper opinions cease neither let the iudgementes or fancies of men stretche them selues beyonde Gods limite Therefore against these prophane and impious institutions or Catechismes of God let vs followe the selfe-same authorities of Gods sayinges which they alleage in their owne false sense restoring euery one of them to his true meaning Which there consequently he doth A goodly testimonie for your purpose The saying of S. Basill is in euery mans mouth Basi de spi Sanc. ca. 27 that the Doctrines preached in the Church we haue them partely by writing partely by the Apostles Tradition without writinge And if we go about to reiect suche vnwritten customes we shall vnawares condemne the Gospell also Imo ipsam fidei predicationem ad nudum nomen contrahemus yea wee shall bring the verye preaching of our faith to a bare name And you your selfe doe note it as a greate matter that by his confession here Pur. 380. the wordes of Inuocation when the Blessed Sacrament is shewed are not taughte by the Scripture no more then many other ceremonies that he rehearseth in the same place And yet must he also beare you witnesse against himselfe for Only Scripture Ar. 11. Basi de vera side in prooem Moraliū Well what saith he In his treatise of faith We know that we must now and alwayes auoyde euery worde and opinion that is differing from the doctrine of our Lord. I say the same But it is not all one to be differing from our Lords doctrine and not to be expressed in Scripture In so muche that he alloweth wel of those words in speaking of the Trinitie Quae apud Sanctos viros in vsu fuisse reperirentur Which had bene vsed of the holy fathers although they were not in Scripture Basi in Regulis breu Interrog 1. Two sayings more of his you alleage In his short definitions to the first interrogation Whether it be lawfull or profitable for a man to permit vnto him selfe to do or say any thing which he thinketh to be good without testimonie of the holy Scriptures He answereth For as much as our Sauiour Christ saith that the Holy ghost shall not speake of him selfe what madnes is it that any man should presume to beleue any thing without the authoritie of Gods word If you saw the place your malice passeth The words are these Quis esse tanta vesania c. Who can be so madde that he dare so much as to thinke any thing of himselfe And it followeth But because of those things and words that are in vse amongst vs some are playnly taught in the holy Scripture some are omitted Concerning them that are written they must precisely be so obserued and concerning them that are omitted we haue this rule To be subiect to other men for Gods commaundement renouncing quite our owne willes Which he saith because he writeth there to Monkes who vow obedience to their Superiours Basil Mor. Reg. 26. c. 1. Agayne In his Morals Dist 26. Euery word or deede must be confirmed by the testimonie of holy Scripture for the perswasion of good men and the confusion of wicked men He there admonisheth his Monkes béeing studentes of Diuinitie to be so perfect in the Scriptures that they may haue a text ready at euery néede so as Christ had to repel the diuels temptation Mat. 4. and Peter to answere the Iewes scoffe Act. 2. And we desire the same in so much as when you bid vs cast all away that is not written we haue this text ready where S. Paul biddeth vs the contrarie To hold the Traditions which we haue learned whether it be by his Scripture or by his word of mouth 2. Thes 2. Last of all we haue to sée what you alleage likewise out of S. Augustine for your onely Scripture Augustine For you play with his nose also as you haue done with his fellowes the foresaid Doctors confessing that he is for vnwritten Traditions and suche other authorities as we stand vpon and yet alleaging him for Onely Scripture Your confession I haue reported at large in the seuenth chapter as for example where you say Augustine blindly defendeth in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda Pur. 349. and else where the cōmon error of his time of prayer for the dead which by holy Scripture he was not able to mainteine contrarie to his owne rule of only Scripture in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Well then how do you shew out of Augustine against Augustine him selfe that this was his rule You make your shew in thrée partes Ar. 12. Pur. 383.405.368.451 First you quote onely without recitall of any words eleuen or twelue places out of him In which he preferreth the authoritie of the Canonicall Scripture before all writings of Catholike Doctors of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions So you gather of those places But that is not the question Which is to be preferred but this Whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie And touching the preferment also recite the wordes when you will and it will appeare playnly that he neither preferreth the Scripture otherwise then we do Your second part is about this one question Ar. 12. Who haue the true Church Of whiche question you saye that S. Augustine would haue the Church fought only in the Scriptures Reade my first Demaund and you shall sée what S. Augustine would haue in that question and that I would haue the same to wit that you answere the Scriptures that he alleageth for his Church and for ours together and that you bring one text for the visible Churches perishing after a time or vanishing out of sight and one text that one Luther or one Caluine should after so many hundred yeres restore it againe This is the summe of al. In dede he is content in that question to set aside all other authorities so to draw the Donatists who drew backe al that they could standing vpon other things impertinent to try it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer saith You allenge him De 〈◊〉 Ecclesia cap. 2. where he saith and the like cap. 3.5.6 The question betwene vs and
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
praye you syr is all Montanisme that Tertullian hath in his Booke De anima and in so many other Bookes which he wrote beyng a Montanist then what article of our Créede almost is not Montanisme Euen in those fewe lynes that you cite he hath Immortalitie of the soule Resurrection of the flesh and that which is his scope in the same place to wit for you séeme not to vnderstande it the soules suffering in her betweene this and the Resurrection If otherwise therefore some be trueth though some other bée Montanisme what shoulde you haue done but to looke in Epiphanius in Augustine and such others what were the heresies of Montanus and not finding prayer for the dead amongst them to haue refrained your rashnes You knew this well inough therfore notwithstanding your bragges to proue it c. you confesse that it is but your owne lyght suspicion Pur. 417. saying And therfore it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes added to the abuse in the Church afore also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead wherof Tertullian maketh mētion in his bookes De Castitate De Monogamia which were both written to heretikes of his secte and by those prayers laboureth to proue his Montanisme to wit that Second mariages are not lawfull And againe And therefore it may well be Pur. 263. that all that Tertullian speaketh of prayers and oblations for the dead was onely in the conuenticles of the Montanistes All in Tert. is Montanisme that Cypr. doth not mention And this coniecture you say seemeth the more probable not because it is by any imputed to Montanus but because Cyprian which was afterward a Catholike Byshop in the same Citie where Tertullian some time had lyued maketh no mention of prayers for the deade A goodly cause and yet in déede Cyprian maketh such mention thereof as D. Allen alleageth him Pur. 239. Infra pag. that your selfe doe say there This place of Cyprian hath more collour but yet not so cleare for Purgatorie as M. Allen would seeme to make it And when you haue all done you sticke fast in the lyme But this by the waye Againe you vtter your suspition Pur. 419. saying Finally it appeareth that the faithfull in Tertullians time c. allowed no Prayers for the dead And yet of this least for lacke of courage so great a verse shoulde geue vs so much as a fillip though you haue bene so vncertaine in your premisses you must néedes be certaine in your conclusion notwithstanding and say to vs Therefore Aerius was not the first that helde our opinion although Epiphanius and Augustine say it neuer so muche but Montanus before him was the first that helde your opinion throughly against the Catholikes of his time Oblations for the dead And so much of prayers for the dead But because Aerius denied not onely the profite of them but also of oblations for the dead and was no lesse for that also condemned of the Church you must take paynes to quit him of that heresie likewise and to charge the Church rather that condemned him yea the Church long before he was borne Thus then you say speaking of the times of Tertullian Montanus before him Pur. 417.418.419 The Church then had oblations for the dead by peruerse emulation of the Gentils and yet they were but oblations of thanks giuing You go about to proue it a litle after saying And that the practise of the Churche for oblations for the dead at the yerely day of their death were taken from the Gentiles it appeareth by this that Tertullian counteth them of all one origen to witte of the Apostles tradition with the oblations pro Natalitijs that is for the birth days And if this be not inough Beatus Rhemanus you say a Papist and a great antiquary doth confesse it affirming that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels whiche he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon tradition of the Apostles were abrogated After this you be bolde to crowe agaynst those auncient times and to say amongst many other corruptions which they tooke of the Gentiles and Heretikes So they tooke oblations for the dayes of death and birth of the Gentiles He is a poore antiquarie which knoweth not what Natalitia were in olde time and still are to wit the dayes of Martyrs Natalitia so called because they were then after many sore pangs deliuered out of their mother the militant Churches wombe and borne vnto the life ioy of the world to come Which mother of theirs and ours vsed therfore alwayes and stil vseth Ioan. 6. for ioy that a man is borne to heauen to offer from yere to yere vpon the dayes of their Martyrdome the oblation or sacrifice of the Altar For any other of her children she offereth also the same oblation vpon the day of his death and so forth vpon his yeres Mindeday yere by yere but not with such ioy but rather mourning with them and for them to get them comfort knowing that though they also be borne into the worlde to come yet it may be crying for a time as all children into this world and not laughing by and by as the glorious Martyrs And these two sortes are the oblations that Tertullian speaketh of saying Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitijs Tertul. de Coro mil. Cypr. Epi. 37.34 anima die facimus We make oblations for the dead and for the byrthes of Martyrs vpon their yeres day S. Cyprian likewise We celebrate the passions and dayes of Martyrs with an yerely commemoracion We celebrate oblations and sacrifices for their commemorations And in See Molanus de Martyrolog◠ca. xv after Martyrol vsuardi Aug. in ps 118. in res all Martyrologies you may sée them called Natalitia or Natales S. Paulinus hath left verses that he wrote ten yeres together vpon the Natalis of S. Felix S. Augustine shewing that the olde persecutors could not hurt the Church but rather that they did much good agaynst their willes amongst other vtilities as that the whole earth is clad in purple by the bloud of Martyrs Heauen is all in flowers by the garlandes of Martyrs Churches are decked with the Relikes of Martyrs Often cures are done by the merites of Martyrs hath also to our purpose and saith Insignita sunt tempora Natalitijs Martyrum Times are notably marked with the birthdayes of Martyrs Orig. li. 3. in Iob. Finally Origen saith expresly the place is often alleaged by your selfe Nos itaque non natiuitatis c. We do not celebrate the day of birth into this world considering that it is the entrie into dolours and temptations but we celebrate the day of death as being the laying off of all dolours and profligation of all temptations Pamel in Cyp. ep 34 And therefore it litle forceth what your
of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures onely out of the Scriptures without the commentaries of the Doctors but not also I trow without the Commentaries of Caluine and such like companions thus he saith Pur. 407. And happy be those which not regarding the streames of waters that runne through the vaynes of earth but seeking to the onely fountayne of heauenly truth conteined in the holy Scriptures haue certaine comfort of saluation Pur. 285. And againe to the same purpose Surely as the Sunne is not obscured with the dust that a Cock casteth vp when he scrapeth on the dunghill The Doctors vvritings a dunghill no more is the Sonne of righteousnesse or the light of his holy worde darkened by all the myste of mens deuises which Allen or his complices can rayse out of the whole heape of superstition and error to deface the glory of his Church The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and therefore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Our doctrine shall one day be tried before God and therefore we make no account how we be iudged by mans day 1. Cor. 4. So properly he vttereth his presumption in the words that the Apostle clene contrarie did speake in excéeding great feare It foloweth Your way is your owne way not the way of the Lord and because you take another way vnto saluation then the onely right waye Iesus Christ therfore by his owne sentence you are al theeues and murderers Hath any séene a man so drunken so blinded with pride Well then in the other place of searching the meaning out of the Scriptures them selues alone and neglecting the receaued Expositors what saieth he Whether the old Doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestāts Pur. 434. I haue answered before we will make no comparison with them Modestly spoken a man would thinke but what followeth Neither will we chalenge the likelihood to vs neither will we leaue it to them I mary hold your owne we pray you And why so For whether soeuer we doe we shall be neuer the more certaine of the trueth You say true for so much as concerneth your selues For in déede no certaintie of trueth but most certaine certaintie of error in your vnderstanding But in what so euer the Doctors doe agrée who so expoundeth the Scripture vnto that shall be euer most certaine of the truth which is ynough though not alwayes certaine of that same very places meaning as in the sixt Chapter I declared more at large Forth now a Gods name Supra cap. 6. par 2. But this will we set downe as a most certaine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same Spirite by which they were written The meaning of some place one may attaine vnto which hath not that Spirit but to vnderstand them alwayes agréeably to the truth can not be without that same Spirit Forth againe What then shall we arrogate the Spirit as proper to vs and denye it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirit and so haue we Hereof ariseth an obiection How then is the Spirit of God contrarie to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges He answereth God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods Spirit yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture Yea Syr Cyprian as he was of Cornelius his Spirit so was he likewise of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè as we tearme it though explicite he were of an other of an erronius iudgemēt and that according to his owne humane spirit and not according to Gods Spirit As at this day likewise and alwayes whensoeuer any Catholike man of ignoraunce erreth expressely yet notwithstanding in effect he is of the trueth with the other Catholikes which erre not because he quietly continueth in vnitie with them nor doth not obstinatly holde his owne error against them Now whether the case be so betwene the olde Doctors and you briefly and manifestly it is declared by this that neither you at this time will be refourmed by them nor they in their time would be refourmed by your forefathers Aerius Iouinianus and such like But now that you haue abrogated the vnderstanding of the Scriptures from Gods spirite both in the Doctors and in your selues say on and tell vs your aduise What then there remayneth but this seconde principle as certayne as the first That the Spirite of God hath a meaning in the Scriptures which is not to be sought out of the Scriptures in the opinions of deceiuable men but only in the Scriptures where is nothing but the spirite of truth No syr why suppose those men were the Apostles them selues or any other hauing the same spirite of trueth that the Apostles first had but of that ynough before foorth therefore Therefore that the spirite may declare his owne meaning Ar. 86. one place of Scripture must be expounded by an other for the hard places of Scripture must be opened by easie places all other ordinary meanes and helpes of wit learning knowledge of tongs diligence in hearing reading and praying are subordinate and seruing to this search and triall And is this way so sure and certayne I mary For who soeuer obserueth this search and triall most precisely shall come to the knowledge of the trueth most certaynly And may he not trust an other which hath so precisely obserued it as for example the Protestantes me thinkes as your selfe or M. Caluine c. but I crie you mercy you meant not them Well then may he not trust the olde Fathers therein A comfortable doctrine for the ignorant forsooth or did not they obserue it diligently No for who so euer is negligent in this search and tryall though he haue otherwise neuer so many and excellent graces and giftes may easily be deceiued yea you speake nowe a great worde euen when he thinketh he followeth the authoritie of the Scriptures Which search if the auncient Fathers had alwayes followed they should not so lightly haue passed ouer some thinges as to condemne the Protestantes in Aerius and Vigilantius c. and other thinges so slenderly haue mainteined as the doctrine of the Papistes Well then I sée all is in a mans owne diligence to trust no man nor men but to reade the Scriptures conferre the places and so gather the meaning by him selfe this is your most certen way I must therefore tell you a litle of our diligence therin that you may certifie vs whether it be ynough or no. and the rather because you exhort our master D. Allen and say to him Pur. 9. Trye the rule of the Protestantes and search the worde of God in the holy Scriptures and then vndoubtedly you shall finde the trueth and the Church also that is the pillar of trueth And againe Ar. 62. Who haue the trueth you must search in the
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
24. but kéepe still in the visible euerlasting Church that visibly commeth of me beginning at Hierusalem 4. Rising after Motiue 19. Article 11. Fourthly I require them to shewe any beginning of our Church other then the beginning of Christes Church at Hierusalem Act. 2. As we shew and the world séeth the beginning of their companie now of late by Luther who afore was one of vs nor he onely but all that he drew away after him So that no man can say they were afore that inuisible Protestants because it is so euident that they were visible Papists And to these two or either of them Fulke answereth nothing I require them moreouer in the same Demaund to shewe so much as any first beginner of any one Article of our doctrin so as he receiued it not at the handes of his Predecessors and they of theirs and so forth euen vp to the Apostles As we shew that Luther began his new Articles of him selfe and receiued them not at any mans hands And also if any of the same Articles had in old time any patrone as Aerius agaynst praying for the dead that he likewise in his time was the first beginner of it and receiued it not of his Elders but that his Elders held the contrary of his Article so that his Article euidently was of him selfe and not of the Apostles Hovv this iiij and xxxviij Demaund doe differ I do not here charge them with such Articles as they were of the Church then condemned for heresies for that is enough of it selfe against them whether they were then first begon or afore and therfore I haue of that a seueral Demaund num 38. but as they were then first begunne which of it selfe is enough to shew that they were not receiued from the Apostles whether they were condemned of the Church then for Heresies or no. Now of these matters there are two long Treatises betwene D. Allen and Fulke first in the booke of Articles Art 11. pag. 35. to 47. Secondly in the booke of Purgatorie lib. 2. ca. 13. and 14. pag. 387. to 424. In which places the olde Heresies that they charge one another withall I reserue to their proper place in the Demaund aforesaide as also the chaunges that he sayth some Popes to haue made to the 45. Demaund What then belongeth to this Demaund First touching the argumentes or consequences secondly touching the antecedents The 1. Arg. The one argument is this Our first Authors can not be named Ergo they were none other but the Apostles His first answere is that it followeth not And one while he doth nothing but chafe at vs for it saying Must we finde out the authors of Heresies Pur. 391. Nay iustifie them your selues by the worde of God if you can c as I noted here cap. 7. pag. 79. Another while he will answere it with a witty example of the common wealth saying Must the Magistrate either iustifie a theefes possession or els bring out the author where he had it Nay the theefe must bring out good proofe how and by whō he came by such goods or els he is worthy to be serued like suche a one If that would serue we bring so good proofe for the Article of praying for the dead wherof you there intreat that your selfe confesse we stole it not but that we receiued it from hand to hand of our Auncetors ca. 3. whom your selfe confesse to haue bene the true Church of Christ cap. 2. Will you then quit vs with your witty example charge Christes Church to be a théefe But you confesse cap. 3. pag. 19.20.21 that she telleth you how she came by it to wit by the Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And moreouer howe your friend Aerius would haue stolen it from hir as now your grandsire Luther would steale it from hir heire What Magistrate after al this wil admit the théefe to pleade against the lawfull heire in such childish maner as you do hauing nothing neither to disproue the possession or the Euidēces of the heire nor to bring as Euidence for your selfe as by my answers in the chapters aforegoing it is most manifest Pur. 388. Againe you say the first author of euery heresie can not be named Where you recken ten and say These and a hundred more heresies shal they be thought to haue their heresie from Tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named For example There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowen of them Where haue you that cause I Nicenū 2. con pa. 62. tomo 3 Nicep li. 16 ca. 27. finde that Seuerus B. of Antioch was their head whose name was Seuerus Acephalus And againe that they were but a piece of the Eutichians whose head was Eutyches as the Puritanes whose special head we be not certayne of are a piece of the Caluinists In such sort to shew the author is enough or also to shew the beginning it selfe for that is the cause why we séeke for the author to shew the beginning Which againe is shewed euē by this that the primitiue name of Christians would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by that I say declareth that they began after the beginning And so we can shew the authors also of the other nine Heresies that you name which also your selfe do in naming of them and of all other if it were worth the while as partly you may sée noted in M. Rishons Table And in no such sort can you shew our first authors And so I am now come to your second answere wherein you denie our Antecedent For you say Pur. 402.413 If any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the Popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our founders as they do some of theirs Tute Lepus es pulpamentum quaeris You make D. Allen to be that same non plus of Cambridge Pur. 64. who when he lacked an argument said he would dispute ex concessis You are he euen your selfe Do we acknowledge any founders of our faith but the Apostles of Christ Ar. 47. Agayne you say Thus we haue noted to you the names of diuers Heretikes which first preached certayne Articles of your doctrine Those notes you meane wherewith you noted here cap. 3. pag. 24. the confessed true Church aswell as vs which I haue cleane wyped out cap. 6. pag. 57.58 and will wype away the rest likewise here in the 38. Demaund Ar. 39. Pur. 389. Againe for the first beginning of one particulare you say It can not be proued out of any authentical writer or by any credible author that any before Tertullian who was almost two hundred yeres after the incarnation of Christ eyther named or allowed prayer for the dead or that it was vsed in the Church Tertullian him selfe flourishing
Heresie but it was so contradicted howsoeuer the Fathers were at the same time otherwise occupied And we shew that these supposed Heresies were not as you blaspheme taken into the Church by emulation of Paganes or Heretikes as here cap. 6. pag. 36. to pag. 56. In how many places doth S. Augustine say that Origens heresie of the Damneds saluation after a while was ioyned with a certaine humane pietie And yet who knoweth not how the Origenistes for all that were most ernestly and continually resisted And the like may be shewed in all the like that as well the Heresies which had a shew of pietie and charitie were faithfully resisted as the others no Heresie at all lacking some shew for the time And howsoeuer now you make a small matter of prayer for the dead Cap. 11. coÌ„tradict â—1 in the next Chapter after your vsuall maner of contradicting your selfe you will make it equall to the greatest most blasphemous against Christ and against God and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all that belieue it c. Besides that the Fathers in déede withstood your friend Aerius who would haue entred with the contrarie and likewise all those other knowen friends of yours the old Heretikes Had they for all their being occupied against those horrible Heresies leasure to withstand trueth and had they not leasure to withstand corruptions of trueth You thinke your folowers very béetles if you hope to blind them with such grosse conueiance But you haue also Scripture forsooth to couer your iuggling Ar. â—8 2. Thes 2. For when the Scripture telleth vs that the Mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the General defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time it is folly to aske whether sodenly and in one yere and consequently with much preaching against it Ar. 43 all Religion was corrupted Against your blaphemous vnderstanding of this texte as if it said that the Church of Christ wrought the mysterie or preparation of Antichrist I haue replied cap. 8. pag. 121. But now whosoeuer wrought it doth your text say that ther was then no preaching against it No such word Besides what a mad imagination is this of yours that if all Religion had bene corrupted in one yeare then the Pastors would haue cryed out against it but being wrought by litle and litle they either could not espie it or were content to winke at it For who séeth not in the Ecclesiasticall Histories and other monumentes of Antiquitie that they gaue warning vigilantly and faithfully as well against those Heretikes that would haue corrupted but one or a few Articles as against those others that sought to corrupt many or all So haue they done all the time of the mysterie against all the Heresies that from the beginning haue wrought it 1. Ioan. 2. couertly therein seruing Antichrist them selues also therefore termed Antichristes So they do now also being the time of the defection or Apostasie though not Generall S. Paule doth not so call it of which Antichristian Mysterie you Protestants are the workers as I haue declared cap. 8. pag. 124. to .133 And after all the mysterie when his Reuelation coÌ„meth shall that at least passe vncontrolled You according to the blasphemies of your Apostasie do make that Antichrist is long agoe reuealed to the which I haue in the same place answered moste irrefragably by the Scriptures them selues that you abuse But now whensoeuer his Reuelation be doth any text say that there is then no preaching agaynst him Ar. 36. 2. Thes 2. Mat. 24. Apoc. 12. For so you say When the comming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes and wonders in so muche that if it were possible the very Elect should be deceiued and a generall departing from the fayth was foreshewed and the Church to be driuen into the wildernesse What maruell were it if none of our Church could preach against it as it first entred As though the Scripture were not playne that not onely as he shall enter when the time of his Reuelation commeth but also euen during the whole time of his raigne there shall be open and stoute preaching against him ouer all the worlde with moste mightie working of true Miracles agaynst his lying wonders and moste constant resisting of him to bloud and to death though his tormentes and tormentors be neuer so horrible and Satanicall As I haue partly noted in the same 8. chapter pag. 124. to 130. All this you haue said to defend that our Religion might be false and of a later entraunce Ar. 36. although it were not gaynesaid at the first entring of it As for that which you say of preaching and writing agaynst the Popes authoritie when it first began it is answered aboue cap. 9. pag. 157. Now on the other side that your Religion is not false though it were withstood by the true Pastors in Aerius Iouinianus c. this you say Pur. 413. They that defended that Heretikes should not be baptized were withstood by Cyprian and all the Bishops of Affrica who were in the vnitie of the Church yet were they not heretikes nor their opinion heresie Much forsooth to the purpose Were withstood you should haue added at their first arising and preaching But then you had marred your example your selfe For their opinion did not then first arise but came by lineall tradition from the Apostles And the contrary opinion of Agrippinus and his successor S. Cyprian did then first arise and was withstoode by Pope Stephanus c. who (a) Aug. de bap cont Don. li. 5. ca. 23. wrote and commaunded (b) Vincen. Lirin ca. 9. apud Cyp. epist 74. nihil nouandum nisi quod traditum est to make no innouation but keepe the Tradition And therfore it was an heresie and they that helde it obstinately as afterward the Donatistes and Luciferians were Heretikes and the (c) Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3.4 Niceph l. 6. ca. 7. Hier. coÌ„tra Lucif Bed l. octo quest q. 5. Aug. coÌ„tra Cresc li. 3. ca. 1.2.3 de Bap. li. 2. ca. 4. Ep. 48. Catholiks recanted it both in Africa in Phrygia though S. Cyprian him selfe peraduenture was martyred in the meane time But yet you haue in store one example about this rule to dorre vs withall and to shew that (d) Ar. 93. the Romish Church can well inough abide the true Religion of Christ to be damnably abused by wicked men not only without open or priuie reprehension but also with allowing Which is no worse theÌ„ you hold here of the true auncient Church which you cal your owne But your example out of Matthaeus Paris is cleane agaynst your selfe For it sheweth manifestly that neither those Friars preachers which attributed too much to Religion or life Monasticall nor those Parisian Doctors which detracted too muche from it lacked their reprehenders among the Catholikes as they were all vntill some of the Doctors afterwards proued obstinat heretiks And that
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie
within one hundred yeares after the Apostles doth witnesse that it was vsed before his time and that it came to his time by Tradition of the Apostles The same doth S. Chrysostome S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and many mo witnesse by your owne cōfession here cap. 3. pag. 2.3.4 Are not these authenticall writers nor credible authors nowe with you who here cap. 2. pag. 11. to 22. were with you the most approued writers and the Doctors of Gods Churche I thinke Gods Church may beléeue her Doctors better then you her rebels Howbeit also any reasonable man will thinke it enough for vs to bring it vp to Tertullians time and put you to proue that then it began if you will not graunt that it came from the Apostles Ar. 43. Of another particular you say Transubstantiation no small Article of your Religion was not decreed vntill the yeare of God of our Lorde you would saye 1215. But you will not I trow inferre therevpon that then it beganne For by the same reason an Arrian maye say that Homousion no small Article of our Religion beganne in the first Nicene Councell because it was not decréed vntill then Both wordes were then decréed but the things meant by them came euen from the Apostles Lanfrācus lib. contra Bereng and was decréed also the one of them 200. yeres afore that time to witte when the Heresie of Berengarius superesse in Altari post consecrationem substantiam panis vini the substance of the bread and wine to remayne after Consecration and not only agaynst the Reall presence was condemned in diuers Councels and he glad to recant it as by the writers of the same time we know The other Argument is directly agaynst you as this was directly for vs. The 2. Arg. Your first Authors can be named after the beginning of the Church rising with their new opinions Ergo their opinions were Heresies and they were Heretikes and you be Heretikes namely maynteining the same obstinatly Here agayne you denie both the consequence and the antecedent but how friuolously I haue at large reported cap. 7. pag. 80. where you put in your poore and colde exception of Onely Scripture hauing nothing els to stay agaynst the Auncient Fathers who both made that consequence and also noted your beginners but that they muste proue all by Scripture or els neither doth their argument holde neither was Aerius c. your first Author As also in another place you say to D. Allen therevpon Your rule is false For you leaue out the chiefest condition Pur. 413. which js that the opinion it selfe be contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles or els it is no Heresie though it maye be truely fathered vpon any man sooner or later Full wisely D. Allens rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man that was long after the trueth was firste preached by the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith and contentiously maynteined it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles And you can by no exception by no reason disproue it Now your rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man long after the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith c and contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie c. Are not you then a proper rule giuer Any opinion that is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles No doubt but D. Allen should do wisely to correct his rule which is not his but the Fathers rule by suche learned aduise 5. Contradicted Motiue 20. Article 11. Another rule of D. Allens is according to my next Demaūd (a) Pur. 412. Whosoeuer was wondred at and withstand and in his first arising and preaching by such as were in the vnitie of the Church as Aerius by S. Epiphanius S. Augustine c. and now Luther and Caluine by the Romanes c. he was according to the matter an Heretike or a Schismatike if he were obstinate I aske them therefore who so withstoode vs at any time or what heresie was not so withstood according to Gods promise to his Church Vpon thy walles Esa 62. O Hierusalem I haue set watchmen all day and al night euen for euer non tacebunt they shal not be scilent Whervpon S. Augustine saith confidently by the warrant also of the Parable Aug. ep 119 cap. 19. Mat. 13. Ecclesia dei inter multā paleam c. The Church of God beset with much chaffe and with much cockle although she tolerate many things not béeing able to redresse them yet such things as be agaynst faith or good life she neither alloweth nor is scilent nor practiseth And Fulke him selfe saith as much The Church of Christ in suche places as she is ioyne herevnto ca. 2. Ar. 92. where he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres suffereth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Now against this and so against him selfe to what hath he to say One while he bringeth causes why and how our Religion entred into the true Church with scilence 1 For because it came not in sodenly Ar. 43.39.35 Pur. 256. but entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors where he addeth especially being earnestly occupied against great Heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chiefe foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Pur. 419. Sabellians and such like monsters 2 Another meane or cause was this that in those auncient times if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse with such correction as they thought was sufficient And this was a great corruption Where he addeth So they tooke of them c. eight or nyne things of ours he there nameth his words are here cap. 3. pag. 9. Amongst the which prayer for the dead is one 3. the causes and maner of the entring wherof he rendreth in like sort more at large cap. eodem pag. 14. to 20. as because it had a pretence of Charitie Ar. 39. Pur. 386.78 it deceiued simple men the sooner And the ignorant peoples error first winked at because it had a shew of pietie was allowed at length of Augustine and others who folowed the common errors of their time To omit that D. Allen foresaw and preuented these goodly causes Pur. 384. c. I say it is a fond part to tel why and how a thing was done which thing was neuer done For so the Scripture before alleaged promiseth and S. Augustine affirmeth that there should not be nor was any such silence in the true Pastors In so much that you can not name any confessed