Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
tradition_n	church_n	doctrine_n	unwritten_a	1,841	5	12.2029	5	false

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A12701	An ansvvere to Master Iohn De Albines, notable discourse against heresies (as his frendes call his booke) compiled by Thomas Spark pastor of Blechley in the county of Buck	Sparke, Thomas, 1548-1616.; Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566. Marques de la vraye église catholique. English.	1591 (1591)	STC 23019; ESTC S117703	494,957	544

word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles EuaÌ„gelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that beloÌ„g to truth so that euery one that will may froÌ„ thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church wheÌ„ any questioÌ„ should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstaÌ„deth that souÌ„d form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which theÌ„ would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore eueÌ„ then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundameÌ„tum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditioÌ„ was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwriteÌ„ traditioÌ„s of the Romish church which are not oÌ„ly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereuÌ„to But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a maÌ„ to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditioÌ„s whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditioÌ„ though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacrameÌ„tall chaÌ„ge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chaÌ„ged though the same father in a thousaÌ„d other places shew that his iudgemeÌ„t is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish traÌ„substantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their coÌ„trouersies But at this time thou must pardoÌ„ this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditioÌ„s are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller grouÌ„d of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditioÌ„s which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates coÌ„mandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commaÌ„demeÌ„ts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writteÌ„ as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemeÌ„t ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the coÌ„mon conseÌ„t of all ChristiaÌ„ regions prescriptioÌ„ of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupoÌ„ by and by as though there were no

according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you

neuer hauing proued either of these nor yet being able to doe it you should coÌ„clude that your prescription against our doctrine which you call newe at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient witnesse the olde testament and the newe much rather ought to take place then his in his time against heretiques that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures You say our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique But you doe but say thus you proue it not nor euer shall For it was both heard and knowen many 100. yeares before yours was hatched and if euery one were so condemned that taught it then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be the same that theirs was wee aske no fauour at your hands And as long as we can doe so the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you the more we knowe we haue beene blessed of God Now whereas you say in this Chapter further that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles adding your glosse that is to say by doctrine not writen but deliuered from hand to hand and so receiued from age to age froÌ„ the Apostles to that time therein through the ambiguity of the word Tradition craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader and indeede you giue a glosse that corrupteeh the text For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke though either you or the Printer mistaking it send vs to the fifth Chapter where the wordes are not which you cite and most euidently it shall bee proued that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited yet by the traditioÌ„s of the Apostles which he speaketh of there he meaneth no doctrine nor points of doctrine as you doe vsually by that word contrary or besides that which was also taught in the word writen For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ which ValeÌ„tinian Marcion denied against whoÌ„ he there sheweth that he fought first with the scriptures wherewith when they were vrged he saith they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures as though they were not right had not authority might diuersly be takeÌ„ saying further that trueth could not be found of them by those that are ignorant of traditioÌ„ For the trueth was not deliuered by them but by liuely voice that therefore Paul saied we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect not the wisedoÌ„e of this world And this wisdome to euery one of them saieth he is that which he himselfe hath deuised Of which heretiques their wordes yours when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures are so like vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures for your vnwritten traditions Now when thus he had shewed how the heretiques in his time shunned triall by the scriptures and appealed to tradition he goeth on and sheweth that when he was contented to come to the traditioÌ„ of the Apostles kept obserued in the church downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours then they resisted tradition also saying that they were wiser then either those pastours or the Apostles themselues and so indeede neither by the scriptures nor yet by making demonstration vnto them that the same doctrine taught in the scripture was also deliuered by liuely voice first by the Apostles and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh could stop their mouthes And thus any maÌ„ of meane capacity may perceiue that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is to shew the heretiques that the doctrine which he taught concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ first was warranted by the Apostles writings and then also taught by them by liuely voice and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand amongst the faithfull pastours succeeding one another euen vnto that time And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles and not as you falsly expound him doctrine vnwriten beside or contrary to that which is writen as the Popish traditions you striue for bee if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke where he saieth That which first they preached after by the wil of god tradiderunt nobis they deliuered vs in writing to be the foundation and piller of our faith And indeede it is an vsuall thing with the fathers of the primitiue Church often by the tradition of the Apostles to vnderstand the very same doctrine which is conteined in their writings Herein therefore so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs it is a coÌ„mon tricke with you papists to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning But because you first and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions which is the window indeede that you would haue faine left open vnto you for then thereby you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church what you list and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine when all other shifts faile let vs see whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him He as Eusebius reporteth Hist Eccles lib. 4. cap. 14. saied that Polycarpe taught that one and sole trueth which he had learned of the Apostles quae Ecclesia tradit which the Church deliuereth forth Where of necessity by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition that he there speaketh of you may not vnderstand any other but those which haue warrant from the word writen and in no case those things that are besides that or coÌ„trary thereunto for then hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached the one and sole trueth for questionles those things are true that are conteined in the scriptures And this clearely appeareth if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe in his 5. booke 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto which are these Polycarpe did mention or teach those thinges which he had heard of the Apostles that is all things agreeable to the scriptures Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged saieth that vnder Clement the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians shewing them quam traditionem what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles that is to say that God the father almighty and so forth as is expressed in Moyses is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ And that he is so taught to bee of the Churches saieth hee they that will learne may by the Scriptures and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church Where it is most cleare that he telleth vs himselfe

that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this theÌ„ honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstaÌ„d this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testameÌ„t being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethreÌ„ the documeÌ„ts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion staÌ„deth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of ReligioÌ„ wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely coÌ„fesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning caÌ„not examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the coÌ„mon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwriteÌ„ traditioÌ„s To preueÌ„t you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish theÌ„ all others to mark how flatly against your vnwriteÌ„ vnwaraÌ„ted traditioÌ„s by the writeÌ„ word the fathers with one consent haue writeÌ„ for the absolute sufficieÌ„cy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus TertulliaÌ„ to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosoÌ„ nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writeÌ„ let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a straÌ„ger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority froÌ„ the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall conseÌ„t as often times you will

gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the coÌ„ming maner of coÌ„ming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstaÌ„ding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of theÌ„ neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto theÌ„ vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men theÌ„ vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent froÌ„ one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them theÌ„ heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which

be trueths as fully and more fully then he or any of his side For proofe whereof coÌ„sider that whereas the whole preface consists in the copie and edition that I had of his in print to aunswere of twenty two leaues hee spendes the first eight pages in prouing that Kinges Princes and rulers both ciuill and ecclesiasticall must carefullie administer iustice according to their callings and so bee as good shepherdes to them of whome they haue charge which who doubteth of or who euer denyed amongst vs yea we teaching as we do that Emperours Kings and Queenes in their kingdomes are carefully to looke to the keeping of both tables amongst their people and that they are next vnder God the supreme gouernours of their people aswel in causes ecclesiastical in commaunding for the good of the church and religion of Christ as in causes ciuill in commaunding for the common weale and the good estate thereof and they denying ciuil Magistrates any such authority in causes of the church doe not we far more fully then they teach them how and when they may be as good shepheards to their people Then by occasion of this former needlesse discourse hauing alleadged that Iohn 10. to proue that a good shepheard giueth his life for his sheepe and that Christ is that good sheepheard that knowes his sheepe and is knowen of them marke how in as many mo pages he inferreth that it is necessary that the sheepe know their shepheard that they heare his voice and geue no eare to the voice of a stranger and lastly that they follow and obey their shepheard which are things also truly taught and vnderstoode which we most gladly teach embrace and for lacke of which properties of Christes sheepe wee constantly hold aduouch that the Romish flocke these manie yeares hath rather beene a flocke of goates then of Christes true sheepe For if they knowe as they should that the name of the sheepheard Christ were the only name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and that in him all things are prepared already Math. 22. they would not set vp to themselues so many names of persons and thinges besides him nor hold that so many thinges besides those that are already prepared in him are left to theÌ„selues and others to that ende to prepare as they doe And if they did so heare his voice and refuse to heare the voice of strangers as Christes sheepe ought there neither would nor could be so many strange doctrines yea contrary doctrines to the voice of Christ set downe in the Canonical scriptures receaued maintained amongst them as ear I haue done with Albine I shall shew there are Likewise such followers obeiers of the voice of Christ are they haue they beene for these 4. or 500. yeares speaking vnto them in his word writteÌ„ by the mouth of his true church auÌ„cient sound pastours thereof as that none euer in a number of most weighty and materiall matters more directly contraried his voice then they Whither I haue iust ground and proofe for my thus saying I referre thee to that which I haue written in confutation of Albines discourse cap. 4.17.29 36. And yet such is the folly of this nameles preface wryter that hauing thus noted these to be the properties of Christs true sheepe as though by and by without any further proofe at all it ought of necessity to bee granted that he and his side had all these properties and that we of our side had neuer a one of them all but were notoriously branded with the contrary markes he triumpheth and insulteth ouer vs spending all the rest of his preface in railing vpon vs and in perswading his reader to forsake vs and to ioyne with him his So that all the rest of his preface is builded vppon a most shamefull and impudent begging of all these points that they know Christ aright heare his voice no other obey him and follow him most orderly and also of these that his begging of that former may seeme the more reasonable that their doctrine is sound hauing countenaÌ„ce of al auncient holy fathers of the coÌ„sent of al ChristiaÌ„ Regions prescription of time that their prelates are al prelates lawfully called hauing right succession euery thing that they should haue to credit them withal therefore that they are such as Christ hath commaunded to to be obeyed as himselfe and lastly that their church is the holie Catholike church the obedient spouse of Christ and mother of all the faithfull and that therefore it is damnation to depart froÌ„ her or to refuse to obey any of her lawes and ordinances that with vs all things are quite contrary All these things his reader must graunt him suppose to be true for he hath nothing at all to proue any one of these besides swelling words of vanity and lofty arrogant bragging that these things are so And therefore al these things being the things in question betwixt vs and such as we all most constantly and iustly haue alwaies denied as our writings of these points heretofore now this answere of mine in sundry places thereof make manifest to any indiffereÌ„t reader thereupon it must needes follow that whatsoeuer he hath alleadged either out of scripture or doctor to perswade his reader to obey their church their prelates their ordinances traditions is shamefully abused For compare the times when the persons whereof those things were written their doctrine and doings with these and you shall finde witnes the scriptures theÌ„selues and all sound antiquity as much differeÌ„ce betwixt their church prelates doctrine and ordinances and them of whom those places are to be truely vnderstoode as there is betwixt light and darkenesse the pure Church of Christ and the impure Synagogue of Antichrist And also all his exhortation vpon these grounds to ioine with them and all his bitter inuectiues against vs for refusing so to doe is as a building in the aire without all foundation And therefore is thus easilye pulde downe and laide vnderfoote as a thing more meete to bee trampled vpon as a thing of nothing then by any to bee at all regarded And yet as foule a fault as this is in him it is common to him with all wryters of his side and most notoriously with this Iohn de Albine before whose booke hee hath set this his preface It may bee seeing his author whom hee ment to publish and of whom he had such an opinion that hee accounted him a notable discourser against heresies to haue such a grace and dexterity in stuffing out his booke almost with nothing else but with this beggerly begging the maine questions alwaies that he thought his preface should not be suteable and fit to be set before such a learned discourse vnlesse it were garnished bewtified with the same popish grace And if this were his reason then which I am sure hee hath no better hee is to bee borne withall for what

remedy but that we must needs grant all this to be true he taketh occasion to triumph and to frame a bitter inuectiue against our Religion and liues so concluding his wordy preface with an exhortation to his Reader to forsake vs our ReligioÌ„ to ioine againe with theÌ„ in theirs All which because it is nothing but the vaine malitious wordes of a foolish aduersary without proofe or shadowe of proofe which therefore I am sure the wise Reader will make no reckoning of I might very well let passe with this onely answere that whatsoeuer he hath here said braggingly either in the commendation of his Religion Church or to the disgrace of ours is vtterly false and that I haue plentifully proued it so to be in sundry places of this my answere Howbeit seing this is not only his brag but the brag also a nuÌ„ber of times of Iohn de Albine in the booke following indeed is in effect the only thing by taking whereof granted most subtily they all their fellowes seeke to beguile their simple readers it shal not be amisse because here first we meete with it least otherwise the Reader should be too ready to suffer his hart to be sorestald with this false principle to the preiudice of the truth somewhat to say to make both the vanity falshood hereof to appeare to euery one First therefore it is worthy the marking that the maÌ„ though as hee plainly sheweth hee had here a full purpose at least in wordes to giue as great countenaunce as he could to his cause that yet he seekes to giue it credit but by the testimonie of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time in the meane time omitting that which is to be preferd before all these namely the testimony of the vndoubted word of God reuealed set downe in the scriptures wherein he hath dealt but as the nature of his cause requires which hath no countenance from thence and as the fashion of other of his companioÌ„s in this case is For hereupoÌ„ it is that there is nothing more coÌ„mon in their discourses then to labour by all meanes they can the disgrace of the written word of god and to establish the credite of a word vnwritten which they count to be the traditions or ordinary practise of the Church of Rome To this ende they bestowe so much paines as they doe at least to make shewe of proofe that the scriptures are so darke and obscure so insufficieÌ„t for the direction of the Church in all matters and of so vveake authority of themselues without the authority and testimonie of the Church to countenance them that without the foresaid vnwritten word no man could either fully or certainly be setled and established in the truth So that herein this is their drift that they indeed being without all sounde warrant out of the canonicall scriptures for those thinges which wee count erroneous in theÌ„ they yet may make their followers beleeue that they haue as good ground as need be for them in that they can proue theÌ„ by the tradition of the Church which they call the word of god vnwritten and which they hold to be not onely aequal vnto the other that is written but also far more full and certaine for the determining the trueth of all controuersies And therefore Soto contra Brentium Canisius cap. 5. of his Catechisme and Lindan lib. 5. cap. 10. of his panoplie are not ashamed to confesse reckening almost all the pointes in controuersie betwixt them and vs that they haue their ground and warrant from tradition not written in the scriptures And hereupon it is that there is nothing more common with any of them then when wee presse them with this that the opinions for the which we striue with them haue no warraÌ„t in the scripture yea that the scriptures rightly vnderstoode are flatte against them therein to flye to tradition which is the cause that this fellowe him selfe was so busie before to abuse Irenaeus for the countenance of that onely foundation of their Religion For this cause we may doe say of them that iustly by their owne confessioÌ„ as Tertullian saide of the hereticks in his time they cannot stand if they be driuen once to determine al their controuersies by the scriptures de Resurrectione Carnis cap. 3. Now as for vs Christian reader for all this lewde bragge of his we appeale to these scriptures of god and onely wee allowe of them as of a most perfect touchstone whereby to trye in all matters of Religion the pure golde from the counterfait crauing no further liking nor allowance in any thing then by them wee are able soundly to proue and confirme that which we say and teach And the ancient holy fathers and so the Christian regions in al ancient prescription of time which are the things that he here brags of as it appeares in all sound monuments of antiquity euer since these scriptures were written for the determining of controuersies in their times haue alwaies taken this course to coÌ„fute confound all aduersaries to the truth As for their owne authority or the authority of any other before them no further credit they craue then as they are fouÌ„d to agree with these scriptures otherwise the more that haue couseted the loÌ„ger they held the worse This I haue made manifest by pleÌ„tifull testimony of the ancient fathers theÌ„selues cap. 3.5.23 And therfore whiles he sends vs thus to the fathers Christian regions consent prescription of time he seÌ„ds vs but about the bush for when we come to theÌ„ they will send vs backe againe to the scriptures But whiles they take this course in seeking rather countenance for their cause any where else then at or by the canonicall scriptures in the iust iudgement of god they plainly bewray themselues to euery simple maÌ„ to haue but a bad cause that they so shun the light and refuse the most certaine most indifferent triall of it which questionles is by these scriptures whose neither authority nor indifferecy without blasphemy may once be called in question Indeed I read that wheÌ„ they were pressed with the authority of these scriptures the Marcionites preteÌ„ded for the defence of their heresy their paraclet or coÌ„forters visioÌ„s instructioÌ„s that likewise the MoÌ„tanists did fly to their prophecy the ValeÌ„tinians to their dreams of their Aeons the Manichees to their fundameÌ„tal Epistle the Iewes to their Talmud the Turks to their Alcaron belike lest these should be fouÌ„d vnlike these their predecessors they will thus fly from the vndoubted authority of god speaking in the scriptures to the vncertaine and variable authority of man Yet if this were true that he saith that they haue the auncient holy fathers the common consent of all Christian regions pre scriptioÌ„ of time of their side it were soÌ„ewhat some likelihood it were that things were with theÌ„ as he saith I must needs coÌ„fesse

suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the

pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand

and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in

CatholicÃ¢ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene

seede and then is he taught how to liue in his vocation wherein lieth the sum of that Religion which wee now teach and preach For first we teach men how to serue God according to his owne reuealed wil not according to their owne fansie as you doe Secondly finding men many waies to decline from this rule wee labour to make them see their sins and the danger thereof which wheÌ„ we haue done we send theÌ„ only to Iesus Christ for help and comfort In both with you also offend first whiles you keepe men froÌ„ seeing the multitude and grieuousnes of their sinnes by extenuating the power of original sin by making maÌ„ beleeue that the fulfilling of the law is now possible vnto him that many sins of their owne nature for their littlenes are veniall and that the first motions of sinne arising from the corruption of our owne hearts not consented vnto are no sin and then you go from this most ancient order of God in that you send men for their recouerie not only to Iesus Christ but to their owne freewill merits and satisfaction to a nuÌ„ber of thinges very trifling and ridiculous by vse and doing whereof you would perswade them they shall purchase to themselues remission of their sinnes In the 3. point also we follow the patterne of our heauenly father calling vpon euery man according to his calling to get his liuing in an honest vocation with the sweate of his browes and shewing woman that in lawfull wedlocke if by nature or otherwise she haue not the gift of continencie though to her paine sorrow she is for the encreasing of Gods kingdome and the common weale wherein shee liueth to conceaue and beare children whereas you drawe both the one and the other herefrom into Hermitages Cloisters and Nunries there to liue an idle life out of all vocation profitable to the Church or common weale And we are perswaded that this Religion and consequently a Church to holde and embrace it hath euer since vnto these daies continued And we graunt you also that though God for the sinnes of his people doe afflict his Church diuers times and that grieuously as he did the Isralites with the 70. yeares captiuity yet then he doeth not leaue them without teachers to comfort them and therefore in all ages and times doe constantly beleeue in one place or other that this our ReligioÌ„ and Church hath had some such Yet you must take this with you that in such times of the afflictioÌ„ of the Church the ordinary state of the ministrie thereof hath often failed For you haue heard Azariah the prophet tel king Asa in respect of such times as were before his time that Israell a long season had beene without the true God without prophet to teach and without lawe 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hosea you may reade prophecied that the children of Israell shall remaine many daies without a King without a Prince without an offring without an image without an Ephod and without Teraphim by which wordes the Prophet plainely foresheweth an interruption should be of their outward ordinary visible ministry And euen in respect of the time that you meÌ„tion it appeareth in the 2. of the Imâ—â—â—ntat that the like was fulfilled in the Church in respect of that time of their captiuity in Babylon For there Ieremie lamenting the state of the Church then saieth The Lord hath caused the feastes and Sabbothes to be forgotten in Sion and hath despised in the indignation of his wrath the King and the Priests the Lord hath forsaken his altar hath abhorred his sanctuary And when those prophecies of the florishing of Antichrist 2. Thes 2. and Reuel 17. and that of the Churches being driued into the wildernes and there remaining for a time Reuel 12. should be fulfilled who seeth not that it is no strange thing but a thing plainly foreshewed should be that neither the church herselfe nor her teachers should be very visible and apparent And therefore speaking of those times when indeede those prophesies were verified as you doe you doe our church and her ministers great double wrong first in thus chasing theÌ„ into the wildernes there to saue themselues from your fury and then yet in exacting at our handes the names of them whom God by thus hiding of them preserued to continue his church And yet as I haue shewed you before cap. 4. in the mercie of God wheÌ„ your AntichristiaÌ„ Synagogue florished most in Bohemia other places the Christians called WaldeÌ„ses were many and has diuers assemblies schools churches and ministers Why theÌ„ say you haue you not or do you not run to theÌ„ that by theÌ„ you may haue your ministers ordeined or confirmed if you haue tell vs their names that did it I answere you we haue thought it needles seeing as I haue shewed otherwise both our former later ministers nearer home had both ordinatioÌ„ confirmation that well enough serued their turnes Besides I am sure you caÌ„not be ignoraÌ„t but it hath ben an ordinary thing with God wheÌ„ the ordinary ministers of the church consequently the outward face couÌ„tenance thereof hath bene corrupted gon froÌ„ y truth waies of the lord to raise extraordinarily prophets and others to seeke procure the reformatioÌ„ thereof as it appeareth by raising vp from time to time Prophets amongst the Israelites in the ruins and corruptions of his church who should haue had wrong offred if they should not haue bene receiued as the Lords ministers vntill either they could get ordinary admission of the Prelates then to reform whose corruptions they were seÌ„t or vntil they could shew the names of some other prophets that had ordinarily succeeded others also ordeined them Which is the very case of the Lords faithful ministers whom he hath vsed first in any nation without the ordinary calling of the daies immediatly going before to detect lay opeÌ„ the horrible corruptioÌ„s thrust vpon the Church by the papacy For they fouÌ„d that the word of God was concealed hid froÌ„ the people that insteede thereof they were fed with the inuentions and traditions of men y the honour that was due to God alone was turned vnto meÌ„ vnto images that the bloud of Christ was ineffect trodeÌ„ vnderfoot in that so many by waies were sought to atteine to heaueÌ„ by besides Christ that the sacrament of his body bloud was turned into grosse Idolatry the vse quite peruerted To be short they found al the holy scripture prophaned poisoned which the Popes glosses false interpretatioÌ„s These things therfore being thus the lord reueling vnto theÌ„ his truth because the time was come that Antichrist must be detected the lord gaue vnto theÌ„ the spirit of courage and boldnes first to notifie these corruptions to the Prelates of your church and to craue at their haÌ„ds the reformation thereof but finding that that would not be because sathaÌ„ will

The XXIIII Chapter THe Catholicke Church continuallie hath faithfullie holden doeth holde that our Sauiour Iesus Christ is true God and man hauing taken natural flesh in the wombe of the virgin Marie wholie like vnto ours as touching the corporal essence that is to saie excepted onelie sinne the vvhich bodie he did forme of the verie flesh and substaunce of his mother by the operation of the holy Ghost vvho hath vvrought so notable and excellent a vvorke that tvvo contrary or diuers natures are miraculouslie ioined vnited in one person without confusioÌ„ or conuersion of the one substance into the other but by coniunction vnion of them both called by the diuines Hipostatique This doctrine hath euer beene receiued and holden by the Church in equal degree of trueth and reuerence with the rest of the points of religion which now you seeke to abolish And notwithstanding this diuers Ministers and Preachers deriued from the sacred consistories of Valentinus Photinus Manes Theodorus Nestorius Apollinaris Eutichus Macharius Eutiocheus besides a great number of other famous heretickes that I cannot here name haue sought to teach the contrary saying that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles to reforme the Church b Thus at your pleasurâ— you father vpon these heretiques to make them resemble vs that the contrary whereof the ancient fathers attribute vnto theÌ„ namely that they shunned trial by the scriptures that they accused them of vnsufficiency darkenes and so fled to vnwriten traditions and fond reuelations euen as you doe for al the world not by the Traditions of men which you cal Papistical but by the pure word of God For euen like you my masters did Valentinus his fellowes begin the reformed Church taking vpon them the correction of al the Magistrates and Fathers in times past saying that they did abuse the people because that they taught that Iesus Christ had taken flesh and bloud of the Virgin Marie saying that this vvas a great errour the vvhich ought to be reformed and that the people should beleeue that he brought his bodie from heauen and that he caused it to passe through the wombe of the Virgin Marie as the water doeth through the chanell This Gospel was verie straunge yet the saied Valentinus did not want Scripture as you haue to confirme it interpreting it euen as you doe interpret here in France He did alleage for his text the third of Iohn where Christ doeth saie No person is ascended to heauen but hee that did descende from heauen And therefore did he maintaine that seeing Christ is in heauen and descended from heauen that he tooke no flesh of the virgin Marie Nestorius another notable hereticke did lincke his Gospell to Apollinaris opinion in this case seperating the manhood from God and saying that the sonne of man ought not to be called God for seeing saied Apollinaris that this man is descended from heauen it doeth follow that hee tooke no flesh of the virgin besides this Christ saiethe * Ioh. 6. I am descended from heauen not to doe my will but the will of my father Here hee doeth not speake as one that is God for if it were so he would haue no other wel but the will of his father and so he doeth speake like a man And he saieth that he is descended from heauen for the which cause this same Valentinus did take the conclusion of this Gospel to his aduantage for the third authoritie that is writen in the first to the Corinthians where Saint Paul saieth the first man is of earth earthlie the second is of heauen heauenly The which passage or place is as fit to serue Valentinus opinion as all the places that you and all those that hold your opinion can alleage The XXV Chapter ANother Minister likewise called Apollinaris followed after these sent by the saied master yet according to his saying he did preach the pure word of God affirming that the Church ought to bee reformed which had beleeued that the two natures were coÌ„tained in Iesus Christ that the true religion was to beleeue as it is writen in the 1 of Iohn that the word was indeed become flesh or coÌ„uerted into flesh And to confirme this he did alleage the saied place where S. Iohn doeth say And the word was made flesh wheÌ„ the catholickes did reply against him saying that the verbe or word tooke flesh not as touching the conuersion of one substaÌ„ce into another he did fortifie his Gospel with another text where S. Iohn doeth write of the mariage at Canaa where the water was chaÌ„ged into wine that is to saie as touching the very substance of the water which vvas turned into wine Euen so saieth he that it became at the verie Incarnation of Christ alleaging that that we haue saied And the word was made flesh Arrius which was the most famous hereticke that euer hath bene did preteÌ„d to verifie another gospell his was that our Sauiour Christ had not taken at his incarnation a perfect soule another men haue but that he had onely a body and that his diuinity did supplie the absence of his soule Of this opinion was Apollinaris Theodorus Mossnestenus and Nestorius came after and they did blame the Catholick Church because it did teach the saied vnion called as I haue saied Hipostatique that is to saie of the two natures in one person And they did alleage for their argument a verie subtil reason the which was that God did inhabite within the body of our sauiour as he did within a Temple that is to say by grace and not by being vnited togither And therefore euen as it were a great folly to saie that God is a Temple that so it is to saie that God is a man This Gospell did seeme verie new yet did not they want Scripture to maintaine it a That is not because we haue not plainer places rightly alleaged for proofe of our religion but that in Gods iust iudgement such as you haue eies and ee not and that more plainer then euer I could see anie place to maintaine your heresies Christ did saie vnto the Iewes * Joh. 2. Vndoe this Temple and in three daies I will build it againe He meant it by the Temple of his bodie saieth S. Iohn Then the bodie of Iesus Christ is the Temple of God God is not his temple See whether this be not a notable argument to deceiue the simple man that is not vsed to read how the doctours expound these hard places And moreouer they did alleage S. Paul in the first to the Colloss where hee doeth saie that the plenitude or fulnes of diuinitie doeth dwell in Iesus Christ corporallie they do alleage this place greatly to their purpose to proue that God is b In him as in left out I thin e. a Temple that is to saie by grace not being vnited For the third place they take the 8. of Iohn where

surest way of declaring the scriptures to expouÌ„d one scripture by another in his 3. booke of Christian doctrine cap. 26. and in those bookes writen of Christian doctrine many moe very profitable Which way Chrys thought so sure a way that he saieth flatly The holy scriptures expound theÌ„selues and suffer not the Reader to erre in his 12. Homil vpon Gen And yet for all this to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought neither for the triall of your interpretations nor yet for determining of this question whither you haue the spirit of trueth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselues for triall of their doings to this but your Popes thinke scorne to looke so lowe yea rather they will haue all questions wherein they are principall parties themselues tryed by themselues and you and they crie out that this is not the readiest way to ende such questions But who is so madde as to thinke that you can finde out a better way then Christ and his Apostles vsed You will send vs say some of you for the triall of these matters vnto the doctours and councels and yet when it commeth to the point vnles they and their sayings please you yee reiect them also And you cannot denie but that oftentimes also it is farre more disputable and doubtfull what was their meaning then what is the meaning of the Scripture and you know also that it is an vsuall thing with them to sende vs backe againe to the Scriptures for triall of their writings as it appeareth in Augustines 19. Epist to Hirom and in his 111. Epist to Fortunatian And therefore indeede say you what you will this is the safest surest and readiest way of triall of this and all other matters in question betwixt vs to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures I would to God therfore that once you would giue ouer al other bie and indirect trials and come onely to this for then it would quickely appeare euen to the simple whither you or wee were rather to be followed For all this we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter in warning men to take heede that they doe not rashly beleeue follow euery one that will pretend that they haue the scriptures on their side But whereas you write that the heresies which you will after speake of that were condeÌ„ned by the Catholique church were as well more largely confirmed by scriptures theÌ„ we can thereby confirme our ReligioÌ„ therein first you most vntruely report that of vs as we doubt not but to make it euident vnto the world if you would once come to any indifferent trial with vs secondly I must admonish the reader that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church but that that catholique Church was not yours nor as yours now is For the differences be infinite betwixt yours the Church theÌ„ by reason whereof there is as great difference betwixt the Church then and yours now in effect as there is betwixt ours now and yours In your recitall of the heretiques abusing the scriptures diuers things slipt from you also worthy the noting namely these that you could not content your selfe with shewing vs how they did abuse the Scriptures in wrong alleaging them but that as though your fingers itched to shew that you had as good skill therein as they you still intermingle with theirs your owne cunning in shewing how other places might be abused in like maner neither confuting in the ende their collections nor your owne how dangerous soeuer Another tricke you haue in noting the trueths impugned by them and the maner how they went to worke though neuer so vntruly yet coÌ„fidently to set downe that the things which we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them that they set themselues then against and that they cried out against traditions of men and cried onely for the writen word as we doe wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you were hatched then and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion to flie from the Scriptures and to accuse them as you doe and to vrge traditions that they also vsed to vrge other such like grounds for their heresies as you doe as I haue shewed cap. 3. The last is that for the most part you charge them with what you list not shewing vs where you read or finde ground for these things wherewith you charge them belike least in turning to the places examining you proofes we should to your discredit haue occasion thereby to discry in you either some malice errour ignorance or some negligence at the least For example how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places then the Catholicks Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vs Hus and his schollers condemning them But to passe on from these things to your conclusion vpon these premisses and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter I graunt you by that which you haue writen in the former chapters it may be seene that one ill disposed maie soone alleage scripture in a corrupt sence but what is this to proue that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is that the holie scriptures which we alleage do not iustifie our doings If you would haue proued this indeed you should haue proued that we alleage the scriptures in a wrong sence as these did that you haue talkt on but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you therfore you thought good not once to meddle with it But yet as though either you had proued it or else that it could not but wtout proofe be grauÌ„ted you you boldly affirme as these hereticks that you haue talkt of haue perished their heresies so shall we our followers if we repent not Wherunto I answere first that so repentance maie be takeÌ„ that it is most true that not onely we our followers but you yours also al men else must repent or else we al you and al other shal perish but taking it as you doe for repeÌ„ting of our religioÌ„ of alleaging of the scriptures which we doe for the maintenaÌ„ce of it against you you haue saied nothing at al as yet to make vs once to thinke that we haue any need at al so or therof to repeÌ„t SecoÌ„dly I saie that in thus saying you haue shewed your malice boldnes more then any thing else for you haue therin vttered nothing but a blind prophets dreaÌ„e and fansie which no man of any wisedome or discretion wil make any reckoning of It is wel yet that the euideÌ„ce of the trueth hath enforced you here to confesse that it maie be seene in al the ancient ecclesiastical writers that the doctours fully

spirit and whosoeuer amongst vs come vnto the scriptures trusting to their owne wittes and so puft vp with ignorance as you speake we vtterly mislike theÌ„ as much as you But that you shoulde giue forth this sentence of yours in such general tearmes against simple poore men amongst vs that trauell in the Scriptures you had neither reason nor charity in so doing Commonly such rash iudging of others proceedeth from a minde euen so qualified as you charge theirs to be and from no other fountaine And who so considereth their grosse ignorance and errors that remaine in your great Clerkes euerie where notwithstanding these scriptures what other learning soeuer they pretend he hath most iust occasion thereby to iudge that either they study the scriptures verie little or els that they come to them with the mindes you talke of And if you woulde tell vs plainelie what you meane by humility of spirit which in this case you speake of wee should soone perceiue that thereby you vnderstand not true Christian humilitie which through a base conceite that it breedeth in the owner stirreth him vp the more earnestlie to craue assistance of Gods spirit and by diligent search of the Scriptures and more carefull vse of all good meanes to compasse the right vnderstanding of them but a popish and slauish kinde of humilitie which must breede in the owner such a seruile depending vpon your Popes will and Churches tradition for the sence thereof as that he admit no sence at al of them though thrust vpon him neuer so plainelie by the euidence of the place that will not fullie agree therewith Which breedeth in all of your side either a flat giuing ouer all reading of them or els such a reading of them as that they must bring a sence vnto them from the tradition of your Church and so enforce that vpon them whither they will or no for howsoeuer the scripture speake the Churches tradition maie not be contraried This is your humblenes of spirit when you haue brought Gods spirit speaking in the Scriptures in subiection vnto your popish spirit but this is a proud humilitie and a cursed meekenes You doe but malitiouslie slander vs in that you would perswade your reader that how bad and simple soeuer the man were before assoone as a bishop hath made him minister we say streight hee hath the holy Ghost and no Scripture is to harde for him if hee can with all say the Lorde and rayle vpon the Pope c. And yet I must tell you that wee thinke it not vnlawfull but very necessarie to paint out your Pope with the colours that are due vnto him that men may the better beware of him and yet wee count that no rayling but wee neither tie the holie Ghost to the imposition of the Bishops handes nor place anie such matter in these things here mentioned by you as you woulde leade your reader to imagine we doe You know we might as easily and sute I am with far more trueth saie that with you how lewd vnlearned soeuer the man bee yet when one of your bishops hath priested him theÌ„ if he can cal the Pope most holie father speake reuereÌ„tly of your Cardinals bishops other prelates saie fiâ— on these heretiques these Lutherans and Zuinglians he is straight a famous and worthie catholique Priest with you But wheras amongst other things you obiect that as a fault to their disgrace that they say the ancient doctours were men and that the generall Councels haue erred it is but to discredit them with the simple For you know that the learned knowe that both fathers and councels haue erred that you your owne selues when they write or determine any thing which you like not wil and doe as plainelie as we acknowledge the same For which point let a man read Andrad first booke writen in defence of the Tridentine faith and but what Pighius hath writen of purpose for such cause to discredit the sixt and seuenth Sinods and hee shall most plainelie perceiue that councels are of no further credit with you then they shall be found to say nothing to your mislike But to make it cleare that it is no absurditie to say or hold that couÌ„cels and fathers may erre and haue erred it is wel knowen that as the first Nicean councell and sundry after accordingly decreed a right against the Arrians for the trueth of Christs manhood so the Tyrian the Sirmiense the Ariminense the Sebucian and the AntiocheÌ„ councels determined with the Arrians against the Nicean and the trueth The second councel of Nice Act. 5. agreed that Angels and mens soules are bodily and circumscriptible and yet this councel notwithstanding this grosse errour was confirmed by the 6 councel held at Constantinople which Pope Agatho hath allowed for a general councell The 3. councell of Carthage cap. 23. determined that all praiers at the altar should onelie be made to the father The 2 councell of Ephesus was on Eutyches the heretiques side and decreed for him Your late councels of Constance and Basil decreed a dangerous errour in your conceit I am sure wheÌ„ they decreed the authoritie of the general councell to be aboue the Popes For your holy father could not be quiet vntill he got the contrary decreed in other two Synods at Ferraria and Florence And in the 6 of Constantinople mentioned before there was a perilous heresie agreed on I am sure in your iudgement Canonthirty six against your Popes title namelie that the Bishops of Constantinople shoulde enioy and haue equall priuiledges with them of Rome See also the twenty two Chapter of the Mileuitan councell Ca. the 26. of the 3 councell at Carthage and the 92 Chapter of the African the Epistles of the same to Boniface Caelestine and you shal finde plaine direct CanoÌ„s against the Supremacy that now your Popes calleÌ„ge You were best therfore not onely to be coÌ„teÌ„t that we say general couÌ„cels may er but to learne to say so aswel as we your selues al the sort of you or els you see you are not freÌ„ds to your holy father You may doe it I warraÌ„t you without any discredit For August a great doctor in his 2. booke 3. Chap against the Donatists saieth that the very general councels are often corrected the former by the later as often as by triall experience the thing is opened that before was shut And therfore disputing against Maximinus li. 3. ca. 14. he calleth him froÌ„ the couÌ„cels to the touchstoÌ„e of the scriptures And as for the doctors the same Aug. being one of the chiefe of theÌ„ in his 2. booke 2. Chap. against Cresconius plainly coÌ„fesseth that the iudges or doctors of the Church as being meÌ„ are ofteÌ„ deceiued therfore in his 2 booke of one baptisme he writeth that we may argue doubt of the writings of any bishop whosoeuer he be but we may not so doe of the holy scriptures If he had

fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There

wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie

bouÌ„ds of the Romish Church vniuersal but eueÌ„ as the Donatists shut vp the Church in Africk so do the Romanists within the coÌ„passe of a corner of the world in coÌ„parison of al the rest which they cut of from the coÌ„munion of the Church And yet there is nothing more vsual with Master Ioh. de Albine in this his book theÌ„ to labour to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce the Romish Synagogue with these two things antiquity vniuersality But as for vniuersality it may appeare by that which I haue saied by that which euery one may easily coÌ„ceiue if he coÌ„pare theÌ„ the professe Christ whoÌ„ they reiect as heretickes schismaticks with theÌ„ that receiue honour the popish religion that it is now and hath beene a long time rather with theÌ„ whoÌ„ they thus coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ with theÌ„selues And as for antiquity most certaine it is that the Turks the Nestorians the CircuÌ„cisers may a great deale more iustly brag therof theÌ„ they For the Turkes haue beene in possession of their full Mahometisme these 900 years the heresie of the NestoriaÌ„s hath continued these 1200 years amongst the Georgians And the heresie of them that ioine circuÌ„cision with baptisme continueth yet in Africa in AEthiopia vnder Presbyter Iohn hath these 1500 years whereas popery is not so old as the youÌ„gest of these in that almost al the points therof wherfore it is so called haue beene deuised and brought in since the youngest of these began But put the case that popish religion were ancient indeede and had the greatest part of the world to follow it must it needs therfore follow that it were the trueth the best way No indeed For who can deny that Gentilism or Paganish idolatry wheÌ„ the Apostles were sent first to preach the gospel to the GeÌ„tiles was very ancient For it had welnigh continued then from Noahs fâ—ould vntill that time And neuer was popery of so manie nations so vniuersally receiued as that was And yet who is so simple but he knoweth now for all this that that was a way that led to destruction And if the mystery of iniquity beganne to worke in the Apostle Paules time and yet Antichrist the father thereof was not quite to be abolished before the brightnes of Christs second comming as he plainely teacheth 2. Thess 2. it being withall prophesied that the whore of Babylon Antichrists right patterne should sit vpon many waters that is rule ouer many people and cause the kings and nations of the earth to be drunk with the wine of her fornication as it is Reuelat. 17. who seeth not that euen Antichristianity may be countenanced with great shew both of antiquity vniuersality as certaine and good tokens as the Romanists count these two of the true Church of Christ Which things considered howsoeuer it pleaseth Master Ioh. de Albine here to iest at vs as men like to the children of God in nothing but in this folly that contrary to the fashion of the wise children of the world we chuse rather to trust a few then many we are contented therein to be like them stil and so rather to chuse to enter into the Arke with 8. persons Ge. 7. so to be saued then to refuse so to doe with all the world besides so to be drowned And I would aduise him for al his wisedome to be such a foole as rather with two or three to flie out of Sodom with Lot Gen. 19 then with all the rest to tarry behinde and to be destroied with fire and brimstone For howsoeuer he count this folly Christ who is wisedome it selfe hath charged his to striue to enter in at the straight gate though few go the way many the other broad way For that is the way that wil lead vnto saluation whereas the other leadeth to destruction Luke 13. But the men whom he nameth Luther Zuinglius and Oecolampadius though they be men whom we thinke wel of and whose memories shal be famous in Gods Church for al his blinde prophecie to the contrary when the names of a thousand such as himselfe is shal bee either buried in obliuion or infamous for their resisting of Gods trueth are not the men vpon whom wee build our religion These we account such as in these later daies God vsed to very good purpose to reuiue further to publish and make knowen the doctrine of trueth then it was when they beganne first But the men that we trust and leane vnto in this case are those holy men of God and such like as Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Pet. 1 which spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost so haue left the will of God for our full direction vnto vs in the holy Scripture And these the ancient Christians and Doctours for six hundred yeares after Christ and infinite numbers since euen downe vnto the times of these whom he here nameth as I haue shewed in the fourth Chapter of this booke and else where togither with vs haue followed And further then these writers of the canonical scriptures haue led any of these we doe not nor meane not to follow theÌ„ You shew therefore Master Albine but the nature of your Romish spirit in your confident aduouching without all proofe that these men you name gained soules to the Deuill and that they haue so fold their honesty credit that few now know that euer they liued in the worlde For besides your rash and vncharitable iudging of theÌ„ you speake that which your owne heart tolde you was a lie For you could not bee ignorant but that these mens names are knowen to thousands that neuer read their stories But you say that you agree with vs in not trusting of men but in trusting to the very word writeÌ„ but you and we vary about the interpretation for we interpret it after one sort and you after another we after a new sort and the Catholicke Church whereby wrongfully stil you meane your owne doeth follow the olde exposition of the ancient doctours and traditions with we haue forsaken Herein you say more then either you or any of your fellowes wil stand to For when it commeth to the point the greatest champions of you confesse that a number of the things that are in controuersie betwixt you and vs are without the coÌ„passe of the scripture and therfore least they should be quite reiected they vnder prop them with the rotten prop which yet they labour to make to carry some shew of strength of traditions or of the word vnwriten And in the other point concerning interpretation that therein we vary it is true but that the variety is as you say it is false For we neuer refused the exposition of the Catholicke Church nor to vse the helpe of her sound and Catholicke Doctours or traditions agreing with the word writeÌ„ as helpeth the better to attaine to the right sence therof by Indeed the interpretation of your new Apostata Church of Rome her false doctours and

yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or

traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs

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