they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
himselfe This place maketh least of all against vs. A tradition may be written 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 15. 2. Thes. 2. Cyp. ad Pompeiâ—â—m contra epist. Stephani Basil. contra Eâ—nomium li. 3. August de Bap. contra Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23. The custome of the church in baptizing her infants were not sufficient if the tradition were not Apostolike S. Augustine proueth it needfull for infants to be baptized whether it were lawfull was neuer doubted in his time * August de baptism contra Dâ—nâ—t li. 4. ca. 24. S Augustine vrgeth Baptisme to be needfull against the Pelagians who thought it superfluous not against those that were preuented with ineuitable necessitie * Iohn 3. The fact is not expressed in the Scriptures the cause is a Mat. 18. b Mat. 19. c Iohn 3. d 1. Cor. 7. e 1. Cor. 1. 2. Tim. 1. f 1. Peter 2. g Rom. 11. If Children be holy because their parents are holie then they haue no better holines than their parents and in all ChristiaÌ„ parents there is not inward sanctification h Act. 8. i Rom. 5. vers 15.17.21 August de baptis lib. 4 cap. a 22. b 23. c 24. The scripture proueth that ChildreÌ„ may be baptized must be if we wil haue them to be saued tradition proueth they were Baptized One and the same traditioÌ„ both vnwritteÌ„ and yet warranted by the Scriptures De baptis coÌ„tra Donat. li. 2. c. 7. De baptis coÌ„tra Dâ—nat li. 5. â— 23. * De baptis li. 1. cap. 7. RebaptizatioÌ„ against the Scriptures * De baptis lib. 4. cap. 7. De baptis lib. 5. cap. 4. De baptis lib. 6. cap. 1. How the same thing may be written yet vnwritten The Rhemish Testament 2. Thes. 2. That Mary was not knowen of her husband after the birth of our Sauiour is a reuereÌ„d truth but no point of faith De Eccl. dogmatibus cap. 69. * Vide Erasmi censuram in eundem librum * Cap. 4. Ibidem cap. 69. Enchirid. ad Laurens ca. 34. Christes mother was a Virgine as wel after his birth as after his conception * De Tempore sermo 123. How she forbare the company of her husband is no matter incoÌ„prehensible Ibidem sermo 10.15.17.18.25 * If you list to conclude and so remained to her death you may for vs but that is no point of faith whatsoeuer the former be Hieron aduers. Heluidium August de S. Virginit cap 4. The Papists would haue the holy ghost holde his diuiniâ—ie by tradition * Harding against the Apologie of the English Church part 2. cap. 1. * Athanas. de communi essentia Patris Filij Sâ—iritus sancti Dydimus de spiritu sancto Basil. contra Eunomium de spiritu sancto Nazianzen orat 5. de Theolog. Ambros. de spiritu sancto Cyril de Trinitate lib. 7. lib. de spiritu sancto August de Trinitate The fathers assured themselues they had expresse Scripture for the godhead of the holy Ghost a August epist. 66. b Idem qu. est supra Exod. lib. 2. quaest 59. c Contra Max. lib. 3. cap. 21. * What is Dilucide but plain Scripture Ambros. de Spiritus Sancto lib. 3. cap. 10. * Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 11. Is not euideÌ„ter euident Scripture Nazian de Theolog. orat 5. The spirite openly professed in the Scriptures to be God and expresly so recorded * De fide ad Petrum cap. 11. * Is this no Scripture Idem de Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. Idem de Trinit lib. 15. cap. 27. This reason may suffice any Christian man a Hierom. in epist. ad Gal. cap. 1. The sense and consequents are scriptures as well as the wordes b Athanas. in tract quòd Nicen Synod congruis pijs verbis vsa sit c Ibidem Hilar. ad Constant Hierom aduer Luciferianos f Ibiâ—em g Reuelâ—t 1. See Esa. 11. 2. Thes. 2. Reuelat. 1. 19. The spirit proceedeth from the sonne The Iesuites can shewe no poynt of fayth thâ—t the fathers beleeued without scripture Tertul. de praescrips aduers. haeret In vaine to conuince them by the scriptures which receiue not the scriptures Tertull. de praescriptic aduers. haereticos Tertullian speaketh of those sects which were in his time as Valentinus Martion and others who either denied the scriptures or turned them all to monsterous alegories Iren. â—ib 3. â—ap 2. Of these men spake Tertullian The reasons of Tertullians speach Tertull. de praescriptio aduers. Haeretices Ibidem Basill de spiritu sanct cap. 27. Basils place for traditions examined * This verie place graunteth things necessarie to saluation to be in the Gospell Ibidem cap. 29 * Many things receiued with out scriptures but no matters of faith The booke shamefully corrupted Erasmus censure vpon this booke Epist. Erasm. dedicatoria ad episc Culmens praefixa cap. 17. Erasm. calleth them Patches and dregges This place of all others crieth corruption Basill de spiritu sanct cap. 27. Marke the cohereÌ„ce of this place Ibidem cap. 27. A verie learned and wittie discourse forsooth * cap. 29. Basil. de spiritu sanctâ— cap. 29. This place maketh Basill aliue some ages after hee was dead a Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 26. b Basilij epist. 56 57.58.89 c Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 8. This place if it were Basils doth the Iesuits no good Their forged Basill speaketh of the ceremonies not of Doctrine I hope these traditions bee no points of fayth Basil. de spirit santi cap. 27. Ibidem This ergo was no Doctrine nor point of fayth which must be open to all the people Ibidem cap. 27. And prayers of the Church and the creed haue force to godlines which are here reckoned amongst traditions The papists when they waÌ„t Scripture to proue any poynt of their Doctrine runne by and by to tradition and tradition they proue by certayne forgeries of their owne Our fayth must depend on no mans word but only on gods Yf they could not boudly call theÌ„selues Catholiks they could do â—â—le Their adoration of Images neuer taught in the Church but by themselues * Epist. Tharasij Concilij ad CoÌ„stantinum act 7. * Eiusdem Concilij act 3. Constantinus Constant. Episc. Ionas Aurelianens episc de eultu Imaginum lib. 1. Adoration of Images openly detested in the west Church by such as tooke vpon them the defence of Images Ibidem * Infâ—rmo egeno simulachro * See leratissimo mancipantio errorâ— * Ibidem * This was after your Nicene Councel 50. yeres The schoolemen kept the words of the 2. Nicene councell and refelled their meaning with a farre wickeder resolution then the former Thomas part 3. quaest 25. ari 3 * Here the Diuell shewed himselfe in his likenesse Bonauen in 3. lib. senten dist 9. quaest 2. * Holcot in lib. Sapientiae lect 58. * Gerson de probatione spirit parte operum 1 They say they make not Images their goddes but to whatsoeuer they giue diuine
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
speed For the traditions which they mention bee either points of faith or not If they be then by the general confession of all antiquity they must be warraÌ„ted by the scriptures or els we must reiect theÌ„ If they be no parts nor consequents of the christian faith then do not those fathers weaken our assertion wheÌ„ we say that all points of faith must be proued by the scriptures this we gaine besides that the traditioÌ„s which you make the grouÌ„dwork of al your religion as they be not written so be they not necessary to saluation Phi. The faith it selfe is proued by tradition Theo. That doctrine which the Apostles deliuered by word of mouth the very same they put afterward in writing that it might be the touchstone triall of truth in times to come but this is nothing to such vnwritten verities as be different from the scriptures Teach what you wil by tradition so it accord with the written word of God we bée not against it but you may not build any point of faith vpon tradition except the scriptures confirme the same Phi. This is an error of yours which you seeke to bolster against the church The. You giue vs words we giue you proofs this which you cal an error of ours was taught receiued in the primatiue church for a catholik truth except you caÌ„ shew some points of faith which the father 's beleeued vpoÌ„ traditioÌ„ wtout scriptures the world wil suspect that you make traditioÌ„s but a cloake for your heresies Phi. S Augustin often writeth that many of the articles of our religion points of highest importance are not so much to be proued by scriptures as by traditioÌ„ The. You bely so many that it is no newes for you to bely S. Austen Where saith he so Phi. Namely auouching that in no wise we could beleeue that children in their infancy should be baptised if it were not an Apostolik tradition De gen ad lit lib. 10 cap. 23. Theo. But where doth S. Austen write this often that of many articles of religion points of highest importance Of so many high points you should haue shewed two at least Phi. Tradition caused him to beleeue that the baptized of heretiks should not be rebaptized notwithstanding S. Cryprians autority the manifold scriptures aleaged by him though they seemed neuer so pregnaÌ„t de bap lib. 2. cap. 7. Theo. Your heades bee so ful of traditions that you can not report a father without corruptions It is not true that Tradition nothing else caused him to beleeue this against CypriaÌ„s authority he was armed with scriptures reasons inuincible as himselfe both sheweth and saieth Prouoking a Donatist to conferre with him about this errour Ratione agamus diâ—inarum scripturarum authoritatibus agamus Let vs discusse this matter saith he by argumeÌ„t by the authorities of the diuine scriptures And repeating a reason that was expressed in the Princes edict forbidding rebaptizatioÌ„ he maketh the rebaptizers this offer Faciant mille Concilia Episcopi vestri huic vni sententiae respondeant ad quod volueritis consentimus vobis Let your Bishops assemble a thowsand councels answere but this one sentence we yeeld to you at your pleasures And therefore he doubted not to say of Cyprian though otherwise he did honour him very much Aliter sapiâ—t quam veritas diligentius considerata patefecit He was of an other opinion than that which the truth vpon more diligent consideration reueiled And when CypriaÌ„s epistle in this case was obiected he replied Cyprians epistles I esteeme not as canonicall but I coÌ„sider them by the canonical scriptures that which in them agreeth with the authority of the diuine scriptures I receiue with his praise that which doth not agree by his leaue I refuse The general custom of the câ—uâ—ch reuoked him from following Cypriâ—â—s authority though it were great and brought him to the deeper debating of the question but he which sayth that S. Augustine in all his conferences and writinges aleadgeth nothing against rebaptization but tradition may be rebaptized if his christianity be no more than his cunning Phi. For baptizing of infants his words be plaine It were not at al to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition Theo. I see the words wel enough but the meaning of the speaker in this place and the likenesse of the same speach in other places make me to thinke that a letter too much is crept into these wordes as through the iniuries of times and varietie of scribes many thowsand deprauations and diuerse lections were and are yet in the workes of S. Augustine and other fathers not onely by the iudgement of the learned but by the very sight of their margins Phi. A letter to much which is it Theo. You read Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esset traditio I thinke it shoulde bee Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio Esset for esse is a scope in writing soone committed but a matter of some moment in altering the sense Phi. And therefore you may not correct it without apparent proofe Theo. I may suspect it though I take not vpoÌ„ me to correct it but leaue it to the indifferent reader Phi. You must be led thereunto with very good reason Theo. First the very course of the sentence leadeth mee so to thinke Sainct Augustine in these three distunctiues Nequaquam spernenda neque vllo modo superflua deputanda nec omnino credenda The custome of our mother the Church in baptizing her infantes is neither to be despised nor anie waie to bee counted superfluous nor at all to bee beleeued did not meane to contradict him-selâ—e but by steppes to increase the credit of this custome and the third part Nec omnino credenda Not at all to be beleeued doeth rather euert all that went before than giue you any farther commendation to that Tradition For Not at all to be beleeued is as much as to be despised and counted superfluous which is repugnant to the wordes precedent But reading Esse â—or Esset the partes are consequent ech after other in better order and the last is the same that Sainct Augustine in other places doth often vtter in the very like manner and kinde of speech that here is vsed The custome of our mother the church in baptizing her infants is neither to bee despised nor by any meanes to bee accompted superfluous nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio nor at all to bee thought to be any other than an Apostolike tradition So speaking elsewhere of the very same matter he sayth Non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur It is most rightly beleeued to bee none other than a tradition of the Apostles Where wee finde not onely the same purpose but the verie same phrase and force of speech that were vsed before
And so againe of that and such like Many thinges are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in the Councels of those that came after them and yet because they be obserued of the vniuersall Church Non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur they are thought to haue bin deliuered and commended by none but by them Phi. This sense is not amisse if the words would beare it but the text is Esset as we translate it Theo. The sense which you vrge is first against your selues next against S. Austen himselfe in other places and lastly which is it that you shoote at it ouerthroweth not our assertion Phi. It requireth some paines to proue all this Theo. Not so much perhappes as you thinke For will you confesse that no custome of the church must be receiued or beleeued except it be Apostolike Admit this and see whether we will not presently cast off the most part of the preceptes and customes of your Church as not descending from the Apostles and therefore not at all to bee beleeued by your owne verdict And as for Sainct Augustine if you thinke hee woulde saie that The custome of the vniuersall Church is not at all to be beleeued except it bee Apostolik reade this resolution better you wil leaue that misconstruction of his wordes Those things which we keep saith he not written but deliuered by traditioÌ„ the which the whole world obserueth must be conceiued to haue bin commended ordained vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in ecclesia saluberrima authoritas either by the Apostles themselues or else by general councels whose autority in the church is most wholsom The custom of the church he saith must be retained though it be not Apostolike but decreed by others of later age meanâ—r credit than the Apostles if their assemblies synods were general And againe In hijs rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta Maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt In those things where the diuine scripture appointeth no certainty the custome of the people of God ordinances of forefathers must bee helde for a law If the custome of Gods people the ordinaÌ„ces of elders must be kept for a law then the custom of the church in baptizing her infants might not be reiected though it were not Apostolike so S. Austen with your esset cleane crosseth himselfe Lastly where you thinke to giue vs the foile with pressing this place we easily grant you that The custom of the church in baptizing her infantes were not to be beleeued if it were not in Apostolike tradition You haue your own reading what are you the better Phi. Ergo some points of faith are beleeued without the scriptures besides the scriptures The. Sir I deny your argument Phi. This is beleeued by tradition ergo not by scripture Theo. A tradition it may be yet written in the scriptures S. Paul calleth the Lords supper a traditioÌ„ yet it is written Ego accepi à Domino quod tradidi vobis I receiued of the Lord that which I deliuered vnto you The death and resurrection of Christ he likewise caled a tradition confirmed by the Scriptures Tradidi vobis inprimis quod accepi I deliuered vnto you first of all which I also receiued that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and was buried and rose the thirde daie according to the Scriptures And in plainer words to the Thessalonians Holde fast sayeth hee the traditions which you haue learned either by speeche or Epistle of ours calling those thinges that be written in his epistles his traditions Phi. But the fathers vse the word otherwise for that which is not written Theo. Sometimes they do somtimes they do not S. Cyprian sayth Whence is this tradition Whether doeth it descend from the Lordes authority and the Gospell or commeth it from the precepts and epistles of the Apostles If it be commaunded in the Gospell or contained in the Epistles or Actes of the Apostles let this holy tradition be obserued And so S. Basill Our baptisme is according to the tradition of the Lord in the name of the father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Ireneus Tertullian Hierom Augustine and others call the short rehearsal of the christian faith which is our common Creede an old Apostolik traditioÌ„ yet no part of the creede is without or besides the warrant of the Scriptures Phi. I know it may be a tradition and yet reuokeable to the Scriptures and proueable by the Scriptures but the baptisme of infantes Sainct Augustine saith hath no witnes in the scriptures Theo. Where saith he so Phi. In many places Theo. Name but one Phi. There be many things which the vniuersal Church obserueth and for that cause they be well thought to haue beene commaunded by the Apostles though they be not found written Theo. How proue you this to be one of those many Phi. Because wee finde it not written but only deliuered by tradition Theo. You say so but where doth S. Augustine say so Phi. In the wordes which we first alleaged It were not to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition If it were written it must be beleeued though it were no Tradition Theo. You deale with the fathers as you doe with the scriptures S. Austen doth not say the baptisme of infants were not to be beleeued but The custome of the Church in a matter of so great weight as the baptizing of infants were not to be trusted if the tradition were not Apostolike The church might not haue presumed to baptize infants if the Apostles had not begunne it what gaine you by that Thereby you may proue that the Apostles did it and that the Church of her selfe and her own authoritie might not doe it more you cannot proue Phi. But doth S. Austen any where say that the baptisme of Children is contained in the scriptures Theo. What if he went not so farre in wordes because the matter was not in question whiles he liued is that any ground for you to conclude that it is not allowed by the Scriptures Phi. If he keepe silence it is a shrewde signe that it is not Theo. So long as no man did impugne it there was no need he should defend it the question in his time was not whether it were lawful for infants to be baptized but whether it were needfull for theÌ„ or no. The Pelagians held it to be superfluous for yâ— infantes were void of original sinne which was their error That he mightily reproueth by manifest Scriptures and sheweth that infants as well as others bee excluded from the kingdome of God if they be not baptized Farther hee waded not as being not farther vrged and troubled enough besides with refuting other heresies and yet as occasion serued hee brought
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
neither mans speach nor witte can comprehende howe it was done And againe Virgo cum parturit virgo post partum Vacuatur vterus infans excipitur nec tamen virginitas violatur Shee was a virgin when shee was deliuered and a virgin after She was deliuered her child borne and shee for all that a virgin The like we find in sundry other of those sermons Phi. But Heluidius was noted as an heretike by S. Augustine and others for saying that our Lady was knowen of Ioseph her husband after the birth of our Sauiour Theo. The Fathers might reiect him as an heretike for his impudent abusing the Scriptures to build a falshoode vpon them which was not contained in them and if they detested it as a rash and wicked slaunder for him against manifest trueth to blemish that chosen vessell which the holy Ghost had ouershadowed and the son of God sanctified with his presence we neither blame them nor mislike their doings But yet they neuer charged the Scriptures with imperfection as you doe S. Hierome purposely writing against Heluidius vseth the fulnes of the Scriptures as his best argument to defend her virginitie Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus Natum esse Deum de Virgine credimus quia legimus Mariam Nupsisse post partum non credimus quia non legimus As we deny not those things which are written so we reiect those things which are not written That God was borne of a Virgine wee beleeue because we read That the same virgine Mary became a wife after the birth of her son we beleeue it not because we read it not S. Augustine alleageth Scripture for it with what successe I will not iudge If neither of these quiet your contentious spirits our answer shal be that when you make iust proofe that this is a poinct not of trueth which we graunt but of faith which you vrge then will wee not faile to shewe it consequent to that which is written You were wont to obiect other pointes of Religion as proued by tradition and not by Scripture amongest which you set the Godhead of the holy Ghost and his proceeding from the Father and the Sonne But I trust by this time you be either stilled in them or ashamed of them Phi. Not so neither For As we acknowledge this article to be most true so we are sure you haue no expresse Scripture for it Theo. Are you well aduised when to spite vs you teach the people that the highest mysteries of their faith cannot be warranted by the Scriptures Perceaue you not what a wrong it is to the spirite of GOD to holde his Diuinitie by Tradition and not by the word of God What ignorance is this if it be no worse to say that Athanasius Dydimus Basil Nazianzen Ambrose Cyril and Augustine in their special Treaties of this very point haue alleaged no Scriptures to confirme the Godhead of the Holy Ghost Phi. We speake not of them but of you Theo. As if in a common case of faith the Scriptures were not common to vs with them If they had Scriptures for it we haue if we haue none than had they none Phi. Expresse Scripture they had none Theo. Doe you plaie with idle wordes in so weightie matters of Christian faith Euident and plaine scriptures they had where the holy Ghost was called God what is expresse Scripture if that be not Phi. They had no such scripture Theo. Had they not Turne your booke a little better you shall find they had Glorificate Deum portate in corpore vestro Quem Deum nisi spiritum sanctum cuius corpora nostra dixerat esse Templum Glorifie God saith the Apostle and beare him in your bodie What God but the Holy ghost whose Temple before he called our bodies And againe When Peter had said durst thou make a lie to the holy Ghost Ananias thinking he had lied vnto men Peter sheweth the Holy Ghost to be God by and by adding thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God These two places the same father vrgeth against the Arrians as very plain scriptures Glorificate ergo Deum in corpore vestro Vbi dilucidè ostendit Deum esse spiritum sanctum glorificandum scilicet in corpore nostro Et quod Ananiae dixit Petrus Apostolus Ausus es mentiri spiritui sancto Atque ostendens Deum esse spiritum sanctum non es inquit hominibus mentitus sed Deo Glorifie therefore God in your body saieth Paul Where very manifestly hee sheweth the holy Ghost to bee God which must be glorified in our body as in his Temple And that which Peter the Apostle saide to Ananias Durst thou lie vnto the holy Ghost And declaring the holy Ghost to be God thou hast not lied vnto men saith he but vnto God Ambrose taketh them for euident scriptures Quod praemiserit Spiritum addiderit non es mentitus hominibus sed Deo necesse est in spiritu sancto vt vnitatem diuinitatis esse intelligas Nec solum in hoc loco euidenter sancti spiritus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est diuinitatem Scriptura testatur sed etiam ipse Dominus dixit in Euangelio quod Deus spiritus est In that Peter first named the Spirite and presently saide thou hast lied not vnto men but vnto God wee can not choose but vnderstand the holy Ghost to be God Neither in this place only doth the Scripture euidently witnesse the Godhead of the holy Ghost but also in the Gospel the Lord himselfe saith that the spirite is God Nazianzen saith these and such like be expresse scriptures and that if you doubt thereof you be very grosse headed They which knewe the only blasphemie which is vttered against the Spirite to be irremissible and gaue Ananias and Saphira that horrible reproche for lying vnto the holy Ghost what doe they seeme to thee openly to professe the Spirite to be God or no How dull headed art thou and without al sense of the spirite if thou doubt thereof or needest farther teaching By so many names so forcible and expresly recorded in the Scriptures the holy Ghost is called Amongst those expresse names numbring this for one of the chiefest and clearest that the holy Ghost was called God as the words before directly witnesse Phi. His proceeding from the Father and the sonne cannot bee proued by scripture though his Godhead may Theo. How then came it first to be beleeued by Tradition or by scripture Phi. Certeinly not by scripture Theo. Your tongues be so vsed to vntruthes that your certainties be litle worth the Church of Christ receiued her faith concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the father and the sonne not by Tradition but by scripture Saint Augustine saith Firmely beleeue and no whit doubt the same holy Ghost which is one Spirit of the
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
which is good and religious to your priuate conceit which sauoreth altogither of mere vanitie and open flattery Phi. What S. Hierom meant God doth know you do not Theo. No more do you but yâ— hee meant not this which you would father on him we haue his owne witnes which you must beleeue vnlesse you can shewe better Thus hee complaineth of the Romanes both Pristes people in the epitaph of Marcella Haeretica in hijs Prouincijs exorta tempestas nauemplenam blasphemiarum Romano intulit portuâ— c. Romanae fidei purissimum fontem caeno lutosa permiscuere vestigia Tunc sancta Marcella postquam sensit fidem Apostolico ore laudatam in plerisque violari ita vt sacerdotes quoque ac nonnullos Monachorum maximeque seculi homines in assensum sui traheret ac simplicitati illuderet episcopi publice restitit An hereticall tempest rising in these Countries of the East caried full saile into the hauen of Rome c. vncleane feete did trouble with mud the most pure fountaine of the Romane faith Then holy Marcella when shee sawe the faith praised by the Apostles mouth violated in most thinges so that this heresie drew the Priestes and some Monkes and specially laimen into the consent of it selfe and deluded the simplicitie of the Bishop of Rome shee began to resist openly Note Sir that come to passe in Hieroms age and knowledge which you would proue by Hieroms words to be in all ages impossible The fountaine of the Romane faith defiled with mud the faith praised by the Apostles violated in most things the Priests the people drawen into the same consent the seely Bishop of Rome abused by them and the first that openly resisted a poore widow Go then and blaze to the world as you haue done in your magistrall annotations or rather deprauations of the new Testament which as you haue dressed it with your deuises and glozes is now nothing lesse than the Testament of Christ proclaime I say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes nor their faith be possibly changed that vpon the credits of Cyprian Hierom when they themselues did see and say the contrary Phi. We take no such care for the people of Rome whether they may straie from the faith or no Peters successour is he that our eyes are and ought to bee rather bent on and touching his holines we be resolued that he can not erre in faith Theo. His holinesse hath very good lucke then and better than all his neighbours besides but how shall wee knowe that hee can not erre Your worde is too weake to be taken for a matter of such weight fathers you bring none Scriptures you haue none which way will you make it appeare that his holinesse can not be stained with error Phi. No maruell that our Master would haue his vicars Consistorie and seate infallible seeing euen in the olde law the high Priesthood and chaire of Moses wanted not great priuilege in this case though nothing like the churches and Peters prerogatiue Theo. But we maruell where you finde that Christ would haue any vicar or that his vicars Seat is infallible or that the Bishop is that vicar which you speake of and we most maruell that you auouch al this vpon your single report without script or scrole to confirme the same The chaire of Moses had no such priuilege as you chalenge The people were to learne the law of God at the Priestes handes and hee that presumptuouslie despised the Priest or Magistrate giuing iudgement according to the tenour of Gods law died the death But this doth not proue that either the Priest or the Magistrate coulde not erre or that the Prophetes did not iustly reproue the Priestes when they sate to iudge according to the lawe for their manifest contempts breaches of the Law God by the mouth oâ— Malachy both describeth what the Priestes should do declareth what the Priests had done The Priestes lippes should preserue knowledge and they shoulde seeke the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But yee are gone out of the way O ye Priests ye haue caused many to fall by the lawe ye haue broken the couenant of Leui saith the Lord of hostes This proude priuilege which you mention was claimed by the wicked Priestes in Ieremies time Come say they let vs imagine some deuise against Ieremie for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophet But God assureth them by his Prophet for this their arrogant presumption that the law should perish from the Priest and counsell from the auncient What grosse idolatrie Vriah the Priest committed to please king Ahaz the Scripture will tell you And were there no speciall examples the serious inuectiues of the Prophets against them and the whole land as well for false religion as corrupt manners are euident testimonies that Priestes from the lowest to the highest might erre Esaie saith The Priest and the Prophet haue erred they haue gone awaie they faile in vision they stumble in iudgement Our Sauiour charged his Disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadduces which needed not vnlesse it were erronious And think you these were no errours which the Sonne of God reproued in the Pharisees You haue made the coÌ„maundement of God of no authoritie by your tradition many such like things you do teaching for doctrines the commandements of men The Sadduces errour denying both the resurrection of the bodie and immortality of the soule is often mentioned in the Scriptures and openly refuted by our Sauior And yet the high Priestes were often Sadduces and in the chiefe councels consistories of Ierusalem where the greatest causes of religion and matters of weight were determined sate halfe Sadduces halfe Pharisees sometimes only Sadduces which were plaine Atheisâ—s and wicked heretikes Phi. That ouerthroweth not Peters priuilege Theo. Much lesse doth it establish Peters priuilege for the which cause you allege it but if Moses successour might erre why not Peters Phi. Our assertion is they can not erre you say they can Reason is that you proue your affirmatiue Theo. The Scripture proueth the generall that God is true and all men lyars you except the Bishoppe of Rome as not subiect to errour and ignoraunce reason is you proue your exception and that strongly least you bee conuicted of insolent presumption to fasten the spirite of truth to the Popes chaire without great and good assurance from him that is the fountaine of truth and the giuer of the holy Ghost Phi. We hold by Christes promise Theo. Shew that and you be discharged Phi. Thy faith shall not faile Theo. Proue that to bee spoken to the Bishoppe of Rome Phi. It was spoken to Peter Theo. But not to the Pope Phi. That which Peter had his successour
Prince tooke part with God then your clergy were but Antichristes Atturnies and all your Apologies Defences Replications and Demonstrations are but prophane brables and quarels such as Iulian or Porphyrie might and did obiect against Christ for that his faith came first into the worlde by the disordered rashnesse as they thought and tumultuous headinesse of the common people euen as the Iewes also disdained Christ himselfe and said of his followers Doth any of the Rulers or of the Pharisees beleeue in him but this people that know not the law are cursed If your Bishops held the faith then had you wrong before God but no violence before men sith euerie Realme may dispose them-selues their Landes and liuinges as they see cause and make choice of their religion and teachers though they take not vpon them to decide and define which is truth and which errour as you falsly and scornefully report Phi. Thy make it treason to call their proceedinges heresie Theo. To call the Prince tyrant or heretike is no point of Religion but plaine rayling on powers which all christians are prohibited That law represseth the filthines of your tongues it forceth not the perswasions of your hearts it is no decision of heresie but a prohibition of cursed and intemperate speech which of duty you should forbeare and the Prince may iustly punish Phi. Shall it be death for a man to speake what he thinketh Theo. If the speach be slaunderous or opprobrious why should it not He that curseth his father or mother shal dy the death by the law of God and the selfe same reuerence is due to the magistrat thou shalt not raile vppon the iudge nor speake euill of the ruler of the people yea saith Salomon Curse not the king no not in thy thought and though Dauid himself in respect of his oth spared Shimei that railed on him yet he charged Salomon his sonne to giue him â—â— his deserts Thou shalt not count him innocent for thou art wise and knowest what thou oughtest to do vnto him therefore thou shalt cause his hoare head to goe downe to the graue with blood Therefore you must either leaue railing with Shimei or not thinke it much to suffer at Salomons handes as Shimei did Phi. The Princes person we will spare but that shal neuer driue vs to think well of your proceedinges Theo. If this Realme haue receiued or established any other faith than that which Christ commaunded the Apostles preached the catholike church imbraced then let all our proceedings bee violent disordered and reprochfull but if we haue not then looke to your selues For the Prince and the Parliament had Gods and mans authoritie to do as they did Phi. If doth not hurt vs our faith is catholik Theo. No one point of your faith which we reiect is catholike And the reformation which is now setled by the lawes of this Realme in matters of religion is warranted by the word of God and auncient iudgement of Christes church Phi. Nay our faith is grounded on the sacred Scriptures the generall consent of the catholike church Theo. Proue that and we require no more Phi. Will that content you Theo. Yea verily But you were best beginning a fresh matter to spit in your hand and take better hold than heretofore you haue done Phi. My handfast is so sure that you shall not shake it off Theo. Your heart serueth you what soeuer your handfast doth Proceeding with the next part wee shall see how sure you holde The end of the third part THE FOVRTH PART SHEWETH THE REFORMATION OF THIS Realme to be warranted by the word of God and the ancient faith of Christes Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to be nothing lesse than Catholikes Phi. WHAT one point of our religion is not catholike Theo. No one point of that which this Realme hath refused is truely catholike Your hauing and adoring of images in the church your publike seruice in a â—oung not vnderstood of the people your gazing on the Priest whiles he alone eateth drinketh at the Lordes table your barring the people from the Lordes cup your sacrificing the sonne of God to his father for the sinnes of the worlde your adoring the elementes of bread and wine with diuine honour in stead of Christ your seuen Sacramentes your Shrift your releasing soules out of Purgatorie by prayers and pardons your compelling Priestes to liue single your meritorious vowing and perfourming Pilgrimages your inuocation of Saincts departed your rules of perfection for Monkes and Friers your relying on the Pope as head of the church and Uicar generall vnto Christ these with infinite other superstitions in action and errors in doctrine wee deny to haue any foundation in the Scriptures or confirmation in the generall consent or vse of the catholike church Phi. We sticke not on your words which you vtter to your most aduantage but be not these things as we defend them and you reiect them Catholike The. Nothing lesse Phi. What count you catholike Theo. You were best define that it toucheth you neerest Phi I meane catholike as Vincentius doth that wrote more than 1100. yeares ago Theo. So do I. And in that sense no point of your religion which this Realme hath refused is catholike Phi. All. Theo. None Phi. These are but bragges Theo. Indeede they are so Nothing is more common in your mouthes than catholike and in your faith nothing lesse Phi. Who proueth that Theo. Your selues who after you haue made great sâ—urre for catholike catholike and all catholike when you come to issue you returne it with a non est inuentus Phi. Will you lie a litle Theo. I might vse that sometimes which is so often with you but in this I do not Phi. I say you do Theo. That will appeare if you take any of those points which I haue rehearsed Phi. Which you will Theo. Nay the choice shall be yours because the proofe must be yours Phi. Take them as they lie Hauing and worshipping of Images in the church is it not catholike Theo. It is not Phi. Eight hundred yeares agoe the generall councell of Nice the second decreed it lawfull and euer since it hath beene vsed Theo. Catholike should haue foure conditions by Vincentius rule this hath not one of them There can nothing be catholike vnlesse it be confirmed two wayes first by the authoritie of Gods law and next by the traditioÌ„ of the catholike Church not that the canon of the Scripture is not perfect sufficient enough for all pointes of faith but because many men drawe and stretch the Scriptures to their fansies therefore it is verie needefull that the line of the Propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation should bee directed by the rule of the ecclâ—siasticall and catholike sense Now in the catholike Church her selfe we must take heede wee hold that which hath beene beleeued at all times in all places of all
the Princes or nayle vp cloth of Tissue where the Prince is not and say it is a chayre of state would you bee so foolish as to regard either of them or shoulde you not dishonour the king if you did reuerence them since they bee not such thinges as the Prince accepteth or vseth for his but other mens counterfaites Phi. I speake of that Chaire where the Prince did sit and of that Seale which the Prince did send Theo. I knowe you did and therefore I refused your similitude as vnlike the matter in question betwixt vs because images are neither places of Christes presence nor witnesses of his will as Seates and seales are vnto Princes no nor ordayned allowed or admitted by Christ to haue any credite or vse about his heauenly person or pleasure but only proposed by men of a naturall and kind affection as they thought towards Christ though cleane without warrant and so without thankes from him For hee of purpose tooke his bodily presence from the eyes of men that hee might dwell in their heartes by fayth and to teach vs to honour him not by that proportion of face which the painter would drawe but by that abundance of loue grace and mercie which hee hath extended on vs and layde in stoare for vs and which no corporall eyes can behold nor colours expresse but onely the hearing of his woorde and woorking of his spirite can lighten and perswade the heart of man to conceiue and beleeue Phi. Is it not thankes woorthie with God to haue alwayes the shape of his sonne before our eyes that wee may honour him with our hearts Theo. To honour him with your heartes and to haue him at all times in your mindes is religious and requisite but to make light of those meanes which hee hath prescribed to nourish your fayth and continue the memorie of him-selfe to seeke out others of your owne fit to please your senses not to resemble his greatnes or goodnes this is neither acceptable vnto God nor profitable for your selues Phi. To remember Christ cannot bee euill Theo. Not to remember him till you looke on a picture can not bee good Your heartes ought alwayes to bee lifted vp vnto him that whether you eate or drinke wake or sleepe or whatsoeuer you doe in woorde or deede you may doe all in the name of the Lord Iesu giuing thankes alwayes for all thinges vnto God the father in the name of our Lorde Iesus Christ. You must not tary for the execution of this precept till you see an Image But all your actions woordes and thoughtes must bee directed to the prayse of his glory and honour of his name This if you put in bre you shall neede no painted nor carued Image to bring you in mynde of his mercies The benefites and blessings within you without you and on euery side of you which GOD for Christes sake bestoweth on you are so many that you can hardly forget him vnlesse you also forget the earth that beareth you the heauen that couereth you the day that guydeth your feete the night that giueth you rest the meates that you feede on and the breath that you liue by yea your owne bodies which hee woonderfully made and soules which hee preciously bought All these thinges and all other thinges in heauen and earth you must drowne in vtter obliuion before you can inferre that Images bee needefull to put vs in mynde of our dueties to GOD. And since without Images you can and must remember the Father that created and the Holy Ghost that â—anctified you why shoulde you forget the sonne that redeemed you more than the other except you haue Images at your elbowes to kindle you appetites But this is nothing to the worshipping of Images which you should proue to bee Catholike Though there were an historicall vse in painting the shape of our Sauiour yet is it no pietie to worshippe the picture Graunt it might be vsed for remembrance for religion it may not and therefore you are all this while besides the marke Philand You denie both the hauing and woorshipping of Images to bee Catholique Wee prooue the hauing of them to bee necessarie by the fruite and profite that commeth from them namely the instruction of the ignorant in the storie of their saluation the putting vs in often remembraunce of our Sauiour and the stirring vp our deuotion with more feruencie The worshipping of them wee proue with more facilitie for if hee that honoureth the Image honour the person himselfe thereby represented as S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Chrysostome and S. Ambrose doe affirme then the worship which is done to the Image of Christ passeth vnto Christ himselfe and by consequent if it bee lawfull to adore and honour Christ it is not vnlawfull to doe the like to his Image Besides wee can prooue that adoration of Images is a tradition deliuered from the Apostles and obserued in all Churches and that the Scripture it selfe supporteth vs in this point as the learned epistle of Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome to Constantine and Irene doeth largely shewe and for the credite of the cause wee haue a general Councell eight hundreth yeres old to say as much in euery point as I affirme and more Theo. Wee maruell not to see you so deepely deceiued and strongly deluded as you bee such is the iust iudgement of God on all that admit not the loue of the trueth but haue pleasure in vnrighteousnes You rest on the vanities forgeries of such as were enclined to the same error before you not examining their proofes nor considering their reportes but presuming their euident follies to bee pregnant authorities for you whith is euer the next way to seduce others and to bee seduced your selues As touching the shew which you make of Scriptures Apostolike Tradition Churches Fathers Councels it is a childish and friuolous vaunt The fathers which you quote are abused the Apostles and their Churches belied the Scriptures depraued and wrested the Councell which you call generall reiected as wicked and diligently refuted in the same age by the West Bishoppes Of these emptie and vnluckie Maskes the more you bring the lesse you wynne Phi. Wee loose nothing so long as you lode vs onely with words Theo. If your proofes bee vaine my woordes be true Looke you therefore to the soundnesse of that which you alleage otherwise your owne burden will ouerpresse you Philand The collection which I made out of Saint Basill and others is very sure Saint Basill sayth Honos Imaginis in ipsum prototypum redit The honour doone to the Image redoundeth to the principall that is thereby represented S. Athanasius Qui Imaginem adorat in ipsa Imperatorem adorat He that reuerenceth the Image honoureth therein the Emperour And S. Chrysostome Knowest thou not that hee which hurteth the Emperours Image defaceth the Imperiall dignitie it selfe And so S. Ambrose Hee that
more than Tradition for the baptizing of children If any man sayth he seâ—ke for diuine authoritie in this matter we may truely coniecture by circuÌ„cision what effect the Sacrament of baptisme hath in infants vsing a very forcible argumeÌ„t in this case that if children might receiue the seale of the former couenant vnder Moses why not of the later established in the blood of Christ Phi. He saith we may coniecture it but he doth not say we may proue it Theo. He repeateth the reason with Veraciter conijcere possumus We may very truly coniecture and a true coniecture is no vntrue persuasion but as I said it was not then in doubt and therefore no maruaile if that Learned father laboured not that question to the depth Had it beene denyed as in our dayes it is he woulde haue founde the same scriptures to confirme it that we doe And to say the trueth his euident illations out of the Scriptures that baptisme is needfull for Infants make sufficient demonstration that baptisme is lawfull for Infants els it would follow that no child might be saued which is an hainous and monsterous error directly fighting with the manifest scriptures For where without baptisme they cannot be saued by reason original sin is not remitted but in baptisme as S. Austen concludeth out of the wordes of our Sauiour Except a man be borne of water and of the spirite he cannot enter the kingdome of God If children be excluded from baptism they be consequently excluded from the kingdome of God which is flatly repugnant to the word of God Phi. It is no meaning of ours to exclude children from baptisme but to let you vnderstand that you cannot shew by the Scriptures that children were baptized Theo. I graunt we cannot and adde we neede not The Scriptures we say containe al matters of faith not of fact That children were baptized we proue by the practise of Christes Church and not by the scriptures That children may bee baptized we proue not only by the Tradition of the Apostles but also by the sequele of the Scriptures themselues Our Sauiour saith of Children It is not the will of your father which is in heauen that one of these litle ones should perishe Now choose you whether they shall be saued without baptisme or perishe for lacke of baptisme Againe the Lord saith Suffer the litle children and forbid them not to come vnto me for the kingdome of heauen belongeth vnto such They must enter the kingdome of God before they can possesse it and enter it they cannot vntill they be new borne of water and the holy Ghost Now say wil you exclude them from that which God hath prouided for them or will admitte them to be heires with Christ before they bee engraffed into Christ by Baptisme The Apostle saith to the great comforte of all Christian Parents The vnbeleeuing husband is sanctified by the wife that beleeueth and the vnbeleeuing wife is sanctified by the husband that beleeueth els were your children vncleane but nowe are they holy This is spoken not of the secret election of the faithfull which is neither common to all nor knowen to any but of their Christian profession whereby they be called to be Sainctes that is an holy peculiar people vnto God For al things be holy that be dedicated to his vse this kinde of holines S. Paul deriueth from the roote to the branches If the roote be holy so are the branches If then Infants be partakers of the same vocation holynes with their parents without baptisme which is the seale of Gods couenaÌ„t with vs in the blood of his sonne neither we nor our children can be holy surely the children of Sainctes if they be excluded from baptisme are as vnholy and vncleane as the children of Infidels which vtterly subuerteth sainct Pauls Doctrine If to auoide this place you suppose holinesse to bee meant of the inward satisfaction of Gods spirite besides that children drawe inward corruption not holinesse from their Christian Parents yet this way wee also conclude that Children must bee Baptized for where the spirite of God is precedent the seruice of man must bee consequent as sainct Peter teacheth Can any man forbid water that these shoulde not bee baptized which haue receiued the holy Ghost So that take which you will and say what you can our conclusion is vnmoueable And since children bee defiled by Adam if they may not bee washed by Christ the disobedience of man shal bee mightier vnto condemnation than the grace of God and obedience of Christ vnto iustification which the Scriptures reiect as a wicked absurditie Wherefore the church absolutely and flatly may not assure saluation to children vnbaptized lest they seeme naturally innocent or generally sanctified without baptisme albeit their Parents desiring and seeking it if they bee preuented by mortall necessitie wee must leaue them to the goodnes and secret election of God not without hope because in their Parents there wanted no wil but an extremitie disappointed them and in the children the let was weaknes of age not wickednes of heart and so the sacrameÌ„t omitted not for any contempt of religion but by strictnes of time in which cases S. Augustine confesseth the want of baptisme may be supplied if it so please God mary they may not chalenge it nor we promise it Much more might bee sayde but I content my selfe with the former reasons till you refute them And hauing the certaine practise of the Apostles in baptizing Infants witnessed by the Church of Châ—ist and deliuered vnto the Church for the confirmation of those thinges which we alleage wee count them irrefutable Philand Neither doe I mislike the thing but I muse why Saint Augustine claymed wholy by Tradition if so much Scripture might bee brought for the matter Theoph. Expresse precept to baptize infantes or plaine example where they were baptized the scripture hath none and therefore Saint Augustine did well to reuerence the Tradition which hee sawe was Apostolike and if any man vrge vs to prooue that children were baptized wee must flee to the same Tradition with him But if it bee impugned as a thing vnlawfull and dissonant from the Scriptures we must then lift the ground of that Tradition by the scriptures because it toucheth the saluation or condemnation of Christian Infants And so would S. Austen haue exactly and learnedly doone wee doubt not if that point had beene controuersed in his time Philand Hee woulde you say but hee did not wee knowe and that causeth vs to take it for an vnwritten Tradition Theoph. A tradition we grant but agreeable to the Scriptures And though Saint Austen doe not say so that is no reason for you to conclude it is not so silence is no proofe Nay if hee had called it an vnwritten Tradition as hee doeth not that were no let but it might be confirmed by the scriptures
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their
August Ibidem Tertul. de Idolaetria Isido OriginuÌ„ lib. 5. An Image worshipped is a false God consequeÌ„tly an Idole Quaest. super Iosua lib. 6. cap. 29. The Idole of the heart * August de verbis Dom. secundum Mat. sermo 6. * Idem in Ioan. tract 19. Hieron in Iere. cap. 32. Euery false opinion of God is an Idoll Hieron in Esaiae cap. 2. Hieron in Ose. cap. 4. * August de consens Euangelist li. 1. ca. 18. To serue God as we list and not as he will is idolatrie Why the seruing of God otherwise thaÌ„ he willeth is Idolatrie Deut. 12. * Esa. 1. * Mat. 15. * Esa. 29. The worshiping of Christ by an Image except himself commaund it is Idolatrie They must shew where Christ commaunded him selfe to be worshipped by an Image And so you doe as shal appeare by the confession of your fellowes * Tortalicium sidei contra Iudaeâ—s Saracenos c. lib. 3. Considerat 4. argumenâ— 24. Diuine honor giuen to Images by the Church of Rome * Fortalicium fidei Ibidem Iacob Nanctan in 1. cap. ad Roma They giue Christs honor to an Image and then they say they doe it in respect of Christ. The Papists thinke to shift off the art of Idolatrie with a logicall respect Esa. 42. God respecteth the act if it bee against his law and not the inteÌ„tion Mat. 25. Christ wil haue charitie shewed to others for his sake but not diuine honour to any creature or Image Whether ciuil reuerence may be giuen to Images caÌ„ be no questioÌ„ of religion Yeas but you honour not him when you honour an Image Christ hath appointed vs beâ—ter meanes than an Image to reméber his death those the papists despise preferre their owne deuises before them * If they bee not dangeâ—â—us withall superfluous Rom. 1. Neither Christ nor his Apostles deliuered or allowed Images * Libell Athan. de passion Imaginis Christi * Nicen. Synod 2. act â— 4 * Sigâ—berâ— in anno 765. Fortaliâ—ium fidei lib. 3. consid 10. mirab 5. Vincent speculi histor lib. 24. cap. 160. * In deed they doe therefore looke to your 2. Nicene Councell what grosse forgeries are in it The Apostles the Church succeeding for 400. yeres had no images al that was suffered in the Church for 600. yeres was the painting of stories The Gentils obiâ—cted this to the first Christiâ—ns that they had no Images Arnob. aduers. gentes lib. 8. Origen contra Celsum lib. 7. What the Christians answered Clemens Alexandâ— oratiâ— exhortatoria ad gentes * Ibidem * Origeâ—s â—â—tâ—a Celsum lib. 7. * Ibidem Arnob. contra gentes lib. 8. Lib. 2. cap. 19. The woman that was cured of the bloodie flixe by Christ erected an Image vnto him as vnto her benefactour her selfe being an heathen Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 18. Sozomen lib. 5. cap. 21. Iulian ouerthrew this image in detestation of Christ his person and doctrine Eusebius iudgâ—ment of the womans making this Image Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 18. This setting vp of an image vnto Christ is counted by Eusebius an heathenish custome Images reiected in Spaine Concil Eliber canon 36. August de consent Euangelist lib. 1. cap. 20. Images reiected in Africa Epiph. in epist. ad Iohan. Hierosolymitan Images erected as contrarie to the Scriptures Gregorie disliked not painting of stories in the church but he condeÌ„ned adoratioÌ„ of Images Greg. lib. 9. epi. 9 Exod. 20. Submission of knees hands eyes are parts of gods honor a Esa. 45. b Ephes. 3. c Psal. 63. d 1. Tim. 2. e Psal. 123. f Psal. 25. g Iohn 17. Magistrates Parents haue paâ—t of Gods externall honor because they present his person in iudging and blessing God hath prohibited that Images should haue any part of his corporall honor We must not bowe but to that which is better than our selues Habetur Nicen. Synod 2. act 7. What cuÌ„ning was vsed in the 2. Nicene Councel to haue Images adored * Tharasius Ibidem Nicen Synod 2. act 7. epist. Tharas totius Synodi ad Constant. Irenem * A maÌ„ by this shift may adore his horse and be no Idolater * Genes 33. * Genes 23. * 1. Reg. 20. * Luke 14. Were not these bishops well occupied to make this conclusion A right Stratagem of Satan first to bring in adoratioÌ„ of Images with an ambiguitie of wordes then to set the people to adore them in plain deeds Nicenae Synodi 2. act 7. epist. Tharasij â—oâ—ius Concilij Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem To kisse was a signe of fauor and loue to bowe a signe of subiection The popish Doctrine touching Images agreeth not with the Councell which they would seeme to followe Two sensible chaunges in the adoration of Images Christes Crosse that is his death must be adored but not the wood on which he hung Ambros. de obitu Theodosij Arnob. adversgentes lib. 8. You reiect the bookes that were in your own keeping and will haue vs receiue what you list at your hands though it bee neuer so false It can be no point of faith that may not be proued by the scriptures They may soone be Catholike if they forge as fast as they haue doone then measure Catholicisme by those forgeries The Rhemish Testament vpon the 2. Thes. 2. How largely the word Tradition is takeÌ„ amongest the fathers The Rhemish Test. fol. 559. This is their maner of aleaging fathers throughout their Rhemish Testament a Athanas. contra gentes b Chrysost. homil 1. ad Titum c Idem opera imperfect in Mat. homil 41. d Cyril in Leuit. lib. 5. e Ambros. Hexamer lib. 1. ca. 6. f August in Ioan. tract 44. g Vincent aduers haeret h Ibidem Al that the Iesuites can inferre out of these fathers is this that their own traditions be not necessarie to saluation Tradition is good if it consent with the scriptures The Iesuites doctrine dependeth on tradition of their owne making The Rhemish Testament 2. Thes. 2. The Rhemish Test. Ibidem The Rhemish Test. Ibidem S. Augustine refuteth rebaptization by Scripture â—Aug epi. 203. Aug. epi. 166. Contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 31. Contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 32. Augustine refused Cypâ— authoritie as dissident froÌ„ the Scriptures Aug. de Genes ad literam lib. 10. cap. 23. Al the shew the Ies. haue for this matter is one t too much in S. Austen Esset for Esse Aug. de Genes ad literam lib. 10. cap. 23. There is no Gradation in these wordes except you read Esse which Sainct Augustâ—ment to make a De Bapt. coÌ„trae Donâ—t li. 4. cap. 24. The very same phrase in the very same matter is here vsed a De Bapt. coÌ„tra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 7. If the Iesuites read Esset it is both against themselues also against S. Austen The Iesuites tradition be not all Apostolicall c August epist. 118. d August epist. 86. Esset maketh S. Augustine contrarie to