Discipline and Faith shall appear to be there also will be the Truth of Scriptures and Expositions and all Christian Traditions Si quid horum per orbem frequentat Ecclesia Amongst such things whatsoever is practised by the Church through the world to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein is a mark of most insolent madness Scire sufficit It is a sufficient Motive to reject from our Belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the Church Dicet aliquis si Divinis eloquiis It may be demanded how if both the Devil and his Disciples do make use of and apply Divine Scriptures Sentences and Promises of whom some are false Apostles others false Prophets and all of them Heretics What shall Catholic children of our Mother the Church do How shall they discern truth from falshood in interpreting Holy Scriptures Hereto we answer according as we have received from Holy and learned men before us that they must be very careful to interpret Scriptures according to the Traditions of the Universal Church and according to the Rules of Catholic Doctrine THE SECOND QUESTION BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT §. 45 CAth. Sir Have you considered seriously on the Subject of our last Discourse Prot. Yes Cath. And have you found either in Scripture Tradition Councils or Holy Fathers any warrant to remain divided both in Doctrine and Discipline from all Churches antiently existent upon Earth and at the same time to profess notwithstanding a Belief of One Holy Catholic Church out of whose Communion there is no Salvation Prot. I freely accknowledge that I am not able to produce any considerable Quotations to confront yours Quotations I mean asserting the Authority of particular or new-erected Churches independent on others Cath. Then since it seems both Scripture Tradition Councils and Fathers have given their Testimonies against you Why are you still a Protestant §. 46. Prot. Sir I suppose you do believe I should be very glad to find out a Church to whose Authority I could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment and securely to commit my Soul to her guidance But hitherto not having been able to find such an one I must be content to stay where I am For as for the Roman Church to whose Communion alone you would invite me she appears to me so wholly depraved that I think a real Miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her Communion Cath. I see Sir that you despairing to justifie your own Churches and to excuse them from Schism do seek to draw me to particular Disputes By which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all whatever the success of such Disputes shall be For still the unpardonable guilt of Schism will lie upon you However I will not refuse so far to comply with you Therefore tell me Wherein consists that depravation you speak of Prot. It consists in this that both her Doctrines and Discipline are framed as on purpose to comply with wordly interests and by consequence are opposed to the Spirit of Christianity Cath. How does that appear §. 47. Prot. It appears more than sufficiently in this that as the late learned Arcbishop of Spalato observes all those Points of your Belief and Practice which we condemn and for which we separate from your Church are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her Ambition or Covetousness Cath. Which are the Points which you suppose to comply with Ambition Prot. These which here follow 1. Your Churches assuming the Title of Catholic to her self alone with exclusion of all other Churches 2. The Popes assumed Universal Authority 3. His pretended Infallibility in determining Controversies 4. His usurped Temporal Authority 5. A Power to be acknowledged as given to Priests by consecrating the outward Symbols to make the glorified Body of our Saviour present on the Alter 6. The Offering it in Sacrifice to the Father 7. The exposing of it to mens Adoration 8. The Obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to Priests in Confession and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them 9. A proud esteem of attaining to Iustification and Salvation by your own Merits Thus your Clergy not content to invent Doctrines proper to procure their own Exaltation would instill Pride into the people also §. 48. Cath. For what Doctrines do you accuse the Roman Church of Covetousness Prot. Of this latter sort are the Romane Doctrines 1. Touching Prayer for the dead and Purgatory out of the torments whereof Souls are to be redeemed by Masses Alms c. 2. The gaining of Heaven by mony given for Indulgences 3. The Invocation of Saints 4. The worshipping of their Images and Relicks To which Pilgrimages are ordained with costly Offerings c. §. 49. Cath. This Observation made by the infamous Apostate you named if rightly considered truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere yet not in the Church but much rather in those who seperated from her For it strongly argues that since to oppose her they made choice only of those Points which regarded the Honour Authority and Wealth of the Clergy the true Motives inducing them to rebel against the Church were not any zeal for Truth or care for their Souls for they acknowledg her Orthodox as to all Points of Doctrine approved by former Heretics That therefore which stirred up their rage against her was Envy Hatred of Obedience and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the Treasure and Possessions conferred on her by the Piety of their Holy Progenitours Now Sir tell me sincerely If you were to establish a Church would you take for your pattern that Schismatical King Ieroboam who chose Priests from the dreggs of the People or God himself who instituted a splendid Clergy Prot. It cannot indeed be denied but that contemptible needy and depending Directours of Souls will but very meanly discharge so high an Office as Christ has committed to them having made them Spiritual Iudges of Mankind and stiled them the Light of the world and the Salt of the Earth §. 50. Cath. If the first Reformers had been of your Judgment they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate Passions But Sir if you please let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to Almighty God to whom alone they are open and transparent However this may with full assurance be asserted That if Sacriledge and freedom from Ecclesiastical Iurisdiction were not the only prime Motives they were and will be the prime Effects of your multiplied Reformations §. 51. Prot. I am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side And therefore I will henceforth consider the forementioned Points in debate between us absolutely and in themselves And so doing you must give me leave to say That this also may with full assurance be asserted that whatever Motives the Roman Church may have to
by consequence they are exempted from an Obligation of examining particular Controversies which their Teachers duty is to examine for them §. 19. Neither is it natural Reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent Authority before our own simple judgments but as hath been said a Divine Light also appearing in Scripture and in constant Ecclesiastical Tradition the best and safest Interpreter of Scripture There we find the Church called The Pillar and Ground of truth a City at one in it self and set upon a Hill which cannot be hid There we read That every Tongue which shall rise against her in Iudgment she shall condemn that Gentiles shall come to her light and Kings to the brightness of her Rising And that the nation and Kingdom which will not serve her shall perish There we shall find that the least Supream Tribunal on earth to determine Controversies amongst Christians is the Church whom whosoever will not hear is to be esteemed as a Heathen and a Publican such an unappealeable Authority has God established in this Church And by vertue of this Authority General Councils representing the whole Body of Church Governors challenge from all Christians a submission not only of Non-contradiction but also of internal Assent under Penalty of Anathema which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of Christs promises That he will lead his Church into all Truth Jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform Profession of Truth that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against her Mat. 16. 18. which Gates of Hell are by the interpretations of the Fathers Heresies §. 20. These irrefragable grounds from Prudence and Scripture have we Catholics for directing our Faith On the other side not one single Text of Scripture nay moreover not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy Fathers which may rationally incourage a Christian to prefer his own sence of Scripture before that of the Church whereas whole Books have been written by them of the Churches unity authority indefectibility and universality Now Sir who can resist who can hold out against such a Battery Prot. Well Sir how prevalent soever this Discourse may seem to you to be against us whom you style Schismatics it will prove of little advantage to you Roman Catholics for although we grant that there is but one Catholic Church out of which there is no Salvation yet this does not prove the Roman to be this Church the Roman I say which is but a particular Church and she being as we are perswaded guilty of teaching and practising many false Doctrines and manifold Superstitions and Idolatry we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her §. 21. Cath. Sir this is the ordinary artifice of your Protestant Writers when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of Heresie and Schism to impute to the Church many Errors and sinful Practices in which foresooth their tender consciences dare not joyn This they do to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from Schism till after a full discussion of all other Controversies touching differences about any particular Errors supposed to be in the Church which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand considering mens general incapacity and if undertaken by the Learned would scarce ever have an end But this is most unreasonable because though it were true that the Church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching Errors yet are Protestants justly and unanswerably charged with Schism in a high degree in as much as they remain divided not from the Roman only but all Patriarchal and all other Churches existent before their Separation So that if there be such a Crime as Schism they are manifestly guilty of it and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their Communion To make this charge good against them it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all Christians and of themselves also viz. That there always has been is and shall ever remain a Holy Catholic Church of Christ on Earth from which Separation upon any pretence whatsoever is damnable This Church therefore wheresoever it is was in being when they divided from the Roman and can they pretend that they are Members of this Church There is not a Society in the world older than theirs or other than the Roman Church with which they entertain any communion at all to whose consession of Faith they will subscribe and to whose Laws and Government they will submit but on the contrary condemn its Doctrines Laws and Government The consciousness of this forced the principal Patriarch of Schism Calvin to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world Now it being impossible for Protestants to excuse much less to justifie their manifest Schism to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular Points of Doctrine As long as the charge of Schisin subsists uncleared by them and this Schism grounded on pretended dangerous Errors in the Catholic Church being Schismatics they are Heretics too and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to when they would raise particular controversies since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates §. 22. Schism therefore in its lowest qualification considered only as disobedience to lawful Ecclesiastical Authority being even in the judgment of learned Protestants a most horrible Sin a tearing in pieces the Mystical Body of Christ There are one or two special Aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in Protestants I mean those Reformers abroad and antiently in Scotland Calvinists Presbyterians Lutherans Anabaptists c. They were once Members of the Roman-Catholic-Church which they then esteemed to be that Church which they believed in the Creed It hapned that their Prime Patriarchs Luther Calvin Zwinglius c. having conceived some discontent either against the Governors or some prevailing party in that Church which obstructed their profits or against the Laws of it which restrained their lusts after Women grew angry and began to quarrel with the Church her self and to study to disgrace her for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her Doctrines Then Pride and revenge inspiring them against these they made objections yet not so oft against the Churche's own Doctrines as the Tenents of particular Catholick Writers and most oft they directed their most bitter Invectives against personal miscarriages for all which the Church must be answerable And after all this publishing Liberty from Laws which restrained Concupiscence they quickly found Favorites and Followers thus Sects were first composed But if there had been in any of them either Humility or Love of Peace in case they had been perswaded there had been Errors in the Church her self to which they could not subscribe they would not thereupon separate
to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of