Selected quad for the lemma: tradition_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
tradition_n	authority_n	holy_a	scripture_n	3,181	5	5.9823	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14461	The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe; Disputations chrestiennes. English	Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571.; Calvin, Jean, 1509-1564.; Brooke, John, d. 1582.	1579 (1579)	STC 24776; ESTC S119193	490,810	627

Christian people to beleeue confesse as an artycle of saith that which they haue dreamed and inuented iudgeing and condemning for hereticks all those which do speak against it in such sort that it is more daungerous to speake against withstand their decrées decretals then the commaundement of god For our Lord Iesus Christ sayth that all sinne committed by men may be pardened except the sinne and blasphemy against the holy ghost But it is written in the decroes and Canons woe do commaūd that all decretall constitutions of all the Popes should boe kept in such sort that if any doe commit any thinge contrary vnto them that he doe know that pardon is denied vnto him and that he shall not haue it Hillarius I do then conclude by that Canon that sinne against the Pope is sinne against the holy ghost bicause there is no pardon We must not iest with them I will compare them to the Academians but I had a great deale rather that they were like vnto them then suche as they are Theophilus It should be a greate deale better to define nothing rashly of that whereoff they cannot be certeyne and to followe the Counsell of Sainct Augustin speaking of the riche man of whom mention is made in S. Luke It is better to doubt of secret things then to pleade of vncerteine things I doubt not but that we must vnder stand that the riche man is in moste extroeme hot paines and torments and that poore Lazarus in ioy and comfort But in what sort one ought to vnderstand that flame and fire of hell that bosome of Abraham that tongue of the ryche man that finger of poore Lazarus that thirst of torment that droppe of refressing with much a doe we can finde of those which doe séeke it with meekenes and modesty but of those which do debate of it with contention and strife many Hillariu If Sainct Auguslin had alwayes followed that whiche he teached here his doctrine would haue bene more pure and would haue spoken yet more soberly then he hath done of the suffrages for the dead sith that he had no sure nor certeine witnes in the worde of God. Theophilus Iesus Christ hath not fore spoken without cause that if it were possible the very elect shoulde boe seduced and deceiued by the false Prophets false Christs Wherefore wee ought not to meruaile although Sainct August●n and such as he was haue sometime bene ouercome But for vs we ought rather to be more confirmed in the doctrine of the Gospell seeing it fulfilled before ou● eyes we ought well to learne by the example of others to walke in the feare of God without straying or wandring any thing after our opinions and fantasies For if already from the time of the Apesties Antechrist did bée●in his raigne and worke his secret of iniquitie we muste 〈◊〉 doubt but that he was muche aduanced in the time of Sainct Augustin And the Apostle calleth not without cause his worke and busines the mistery of iniquity For he hath proceeded and gone forwarde so secretly craftely and subtilly that the most holyest and best learned haue bene ouercome vse hath of a long time hatched his Cockatrice and Basilikes eggs before hee could bee perceiued and hath practised his matters so subtilly vnder the earth that scant one could know to what ende he tendeth vntill such time as he hath ended and finished his worke and that Iesus Christ by his Gospel hath opened and reuealed it to his electe as wée doe sée by experience at this present time And as I trust shal doe yet more hereafter Wherefore we knowing into what inconueniences our fathers are fallen into yea the wisest and moste persect in attributing to much to the authoritie of men and to their opinions and traditions Let vs take heede to affirme and propound vnto the christians as an article of faith and doctrine necessary to saluation any thing of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes by the holy scripture of which by them wee are not cleerely resolued For that commeth thorow to greate temeritie and presumption the which God will not leaue vnpunished But whiche is more although the thing shoulde be very true and so as it hath bene preached vnto vs yet neuerthelesse sith that the worde of God doth not make anye expresse mention of it nor doth cléerely shew forth of whiche wee can drawe anye certeine consequence and of whiche wée haue no commaundement of GOD wee maye safelye bée ignoraunt of it without daunger of our saluation For sith that the Scripture is giuen vnto vs for our instruction not for vs to inquire of the estate of the dead but for to learne vs the way for to come vnto the place of that holy eternall rest and true felicity wée ought to content our selues to know that whiche is commaunded vs and whiche to the same is necessary for vs and wee may not bee ignoraunt of them without dammage and hurte of our saluation And therefore wée haue no néede but to holde vs to Iesus Christe and to assure our selues vpon his promises béeing certeine and sure that that whiche hée hath promised vnto that poore théefe hanging vppon the Crosse with him saying This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise toucheth and concerneth euery one of vs as muche as him if we be true faithfull Behold the limittes whiche the Scripture appointeth vnto vs within which wée must dwell without tormenting our selues after the estate of the dead and Purgatory of which it maketh not mention of it one word Eusebius I know very well that although I shoulde alledge all the Doctors which haue bene sithens the death and passion of Iesus Christ vntill this present time that I shall profitte nothinge with you For when you perceiue that they are contrarye vnto your opinions you will not receiue them but when you thinke that they doe make for you But you will runile to the Scripture as the pleaders whiche haue an euill matter doe séeke and finde out all the delayes that they canne and do call alwayes from sentence to sentence what soeuer wrong it be or for to delaye theyr condempnation or vnder hope that they haue to finde out some practise or shyfte for to deceiue and ouercome theyr party and to corrupte the Iudges Wherefore I doe well perceiue that I shal be nothing with you if by the cleere and plaine texte of the Scripture I doe ●ot sloppe your mouth Theophilus If thou cansl do it theu hast gotten y victory For vnto the same doe apperteine the extreame or latter appellations And therefore it seemeth to mée that you do greater wrong then we without any comparison For we doe not put our selues out of reason nor from the ordinary of iustice sith that we doe appeale to none other then to our ordinary Iudge For what wrong to we vnto men if from them we doe appeale before

Purgatory that the thing was not incredible But yet neuerthelesse he ●urst not affirme it but spake of it as of a thing doubtsull and incertein notwithstanding that hee ●●emeth to bee of an opinion that the prayers made for the dead did profit them But when all shal be well considered what witnes or what example doth hee alledge out of the holy Scripture either of the olde or new testament sufficient for to proue and confirme that doctrine I● he shewe foorth vnto me y custome of the aūcient Church the traditions of the Apostles I will demaunde vpon the same the witnes or example of the holy scripture or of the primitiue Church For I am certeine he shall not finde it It is then necessary that we do come to the next age as was the time of Tertulian Ireneus and other like and afterwards from thence vnto the same of Cyprian For I haue already proued by their writings that in those times they did not make such prayers for the dead as they were after the time of Sainct Augustin For they did them not to the intent to helpe succour the dead but they directed them vnto God only for to giue him prayse for to demaund his grace mercy towards the lyuing euen as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs w●ich were done about their Sepuleres to the glory of God consolation of the liuing haue b●ne conuerted chaunged to y inuocation of saincts they haue made Idols of thē so the cōmemoration which is done of other that be dead hath bene chaunged into meritorious prayers for to draw thé from paine successiuely sithency that one hath learned the custom to make a certein remēbrance mention in y ecclesiastical assibles thei came afterward to y point to make y cōmemoration in y supper for to witnes y they held thē of whō in y same they made remēbrance for true faithful catholicke of y cōmunion of saints which in y supper is repres●t●d 〈◊〉 y same manner ought we to vnderstád y which S. Augustin hath writté of y remēbrance which they celebrated for y dead in the sacrifice of y aulter of a mediator by which we ought not to vnderstād a sacrifice in which Iesus christ our only mediator is offred to god his ●ather for y rediption of our souls as he was offred vpō y tr●e of y crosse after y manner as y priests do glory boast thēselues at this present time to offer in their Masse according to y witnes of their Canon For there is but one such Sacrifice the whiche Iesus hath once offered which of none other can be done but of him alone who is the Priesse and euerlasting bishop after the order of Melchizedec if we wil not be lye the holy Ghost who spake by the mouth of the holy Apostle Thomas Of what Sacrifice then doth Sainct Augustine speake off Theophilus Thou oughtest to vnderstand that there bee two sortes of Sacrifices whiche doe comprehend all y other The first is y sacrifice of reconciliation redemption for to deliuer the sinners from the yre and wrath of God But this apperteyneth but to Iesus Christ alone of whom y Leuiticall sacrifices wer but a shadow and figure The other is y sacrifice of praise thanks giuing by which we may comprehend al y workes of the faithfull by which they do prayse God and doe trauiale to be ioyned vnto him As Sainct Augustine doth expounde it Now forasmuche as the sacrament of the holye supper of our Lord is one of the principall things that the church hath for to glorifie God rightly it was called by the auncients sacrifice as not long agoe hath bene touched not by reason that Iesus Christe is offred vnto God by vs But bicause that he offreth himselfe vnto vs and that thorow faith we receiue it and render vnto him it ankes for the greate benefit that he hath done for vs giuing himselfe to the death for vs and we confesse and protest that wee doe not take nor holde anye other for a sauiour then hée onely nor we accept any mans sacrifice but his For that cause hath the supper in like manner bene called Eucharistia by the Greeks The which word signifieth giuing of thankes After the same manner haue Sainct Augustine and other anncient Doctors of the Churche vnderstanded it And they vnderstand not by the aulter any other thinge but the table vpon which y Church hath vsed to celebrate the supper making allusion vnto the aulters of the auncient law and haue regarde to that sacrifice of thankes gyung which in the supper is offred vnto god by his church Behold the estate which was in the Church touching that poynt in the tyme of Sainct Augustine which was about foure hundreth yeares after the death and passion of Iesus Christ in which the church dyd begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted For after that one once had begonne to myngle the commemoration of the dead with that of Iesus Christe for which onely the supper is celebrated not for sinfull men who haue not redemed vs by their death from one opinion and error it is fallen into another in suche sorte that men are fallen into such dreaming● that they haue thought that y supper to the which those that were a lyue dyd cōmunicate dyd profyt the dead and that they might take it for them and to their health saluation after the same manner as they dyd the other suffrages in theyr name Hillarius If we will vnderstand that which saint Paul hath wrytten of the Corinthians which baptised themselues for the dead after the sence in which the auncients haue taken it we should haue no lesse reason to excuse them then those here For if I may take the supper for an other man wherefore may I not in lyke manner be baptised for him I thinke that they will not graunte we that that one may be baptised for an other and that that baptisme doth profite him and yet lesse to the dead then to the lyuing Theophilus It is well founde out who haue bene of that opinion that they may be baptised for the dead which without baptisme were departed out of this world that y baptisme profiteth them But the Doctors questionaries and namely Thomas of Aquin benyeth it and condempneth that opinion Hillarius If I may not then be baptised for the dead whereto serueth or profiteth the supper that I shall take for them For it hath not bene more ordayned for the dead then the baptisme but both of them were for the lyuing aswell the one as the other sith that both of them are Sacraments giuen vnto the militant Church and which is yet couered and wrapped in this flesh Theophilus There is nothing more certeyne And yet neuerthelesse behold how the one of the errors hath drawen the

Doctors of the Churche are of our side or on yours And therefore I pray thée Eusebius that thou doe pursue thine enterprise and that thou shew forth so good places that they cannot be easely plucked from thy hands as they haue done those which thou hast alreadye taken of Sainct Ambrose Eusebius If I would display and shew foorth all that that I might alleadge aswel of the new and late Doctors as of the aun●ient I should aswell set them a worke as Hillarius did vaunt himselfe of late to haue set mée on worke but I haue not determined to alleadge others but of the most auncientest and of those whiche are of more greater authorite in the church by the which I will plainly proue that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead descended from the primatiue Churche and from the traditions of the Apostles For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes they would by and by reicete and despise their authoritie and woulde make none accompte of it But when I shall haue proued that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our side I shall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witnesse of the late Doctors and will more easelier stoppe their mouthes except they bée so past shame that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church which haue shored and held it vppe in the time of the Apostles and to affirme that there are not so manye good men and so wise and learned as they are Theophilus Thou shalt not finde vs so vnreasonable Put foorth thy case afterward Iudge whether wée haue reade and vnderstanded those of whom you doe glorye so much in Thomas I haue heard thée speake friend Fusebius of Sainct Augustine namely among others and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefest by whom thou mayst better fight then by any other if thou canst finde in him a strong staffe for to defende thee and to make warre against them For I haue vnderstanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil serue thē better for to proue their sect then hée Wherefore I am sure that if thou canst do so much that thou canst proue that he is contrary vnto them they shall receiue a great ouerthrow and thou shalt make a great breach in their Castle For if hée so whome they haue their recourse be their enemie they shal haue others which will rise against them Eusebius But so well assured theroff as thou are certeine that it is now daye And to the end thou shouldest not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my case I will shew vnto them the experience What do those wordes signifie which are written in his Encheridion which are also recited in y decrets and in the master of the sentences saying we must not denye that the soules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue when the sacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them or that almes is done in the Church But those thinges doe profite those who haue merited them during this lyfe to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them For there is a certeine manner of liuing whiche is not so good but that it requireth those things after death nor so euil but that after the same they may profit him But there is in lyke manner some kinde of lyfe so good that it requireth not the same And againe some so euill that it cannot haue ayde by those thinges after that this life shal be ended And therefore hee getteth here all the merite by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life Yet neuerthelesse there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD when he shall bée dead whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt This then whiche the Churche hath frequented for to prayse the dead is not contrary vnto that sentence of the Apostle which sayth wée shall all bée brought before the iudgement seat of Christ that euery man may receiue the workes of his body according to that hée hath done whether it hee good or badde For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite when hée lyued in this bodye that those thinges maye profite him For they profite not all men And wherefore doe they not profite all men but bycause of the difference of the lyfe the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye Then when the Sacryfices bée it of the Aulter or of almes déedes what soeuer they bée they are offered for all the dead whiche haue bene baptised those are giuing of thankes for those whiche haue bene verye good and propitiations for those whiche haue not bene very euill for to make God fauorable vnto them But for the moste wicked and euill although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead yet neuerthelesse those are certeine consolations for the lyuing But they doe profite those that they doe profite eyther to the ende that they maye haue full remission and forgiuenesse or without all ●eubt to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and easier to beare Thomas Hath Sainct Augustine written that ●usebius Doest thou thinke mée so much a foole that would declare it otherwise I warrant you they would not let mee passe so if they might saye the contrary But I am certeine they dare not do it And though they woulde they cannot For the booke is of faith and credit Thomas Those wordes are very cléere not onely for to proue the prayers for the dead but also the sacrifice of the ●ulter Eusebius One cannot finde a thing more cléerer For it openeth so plainely all the matter perticulerly and goeth before the obiections replyings which those that do speake against it might make For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue and diuers merites of men And giueth to vnderstand that it must bée hée which woulde that such good déedes should bée profitable vnto him after hys death should be here conducted in such sorte that they may profit him that is to say that it must bée that he dye confessed and repentant And hée speaketh not onely this in this place but in manye other like amongest whiche hée addeth yet this that notwithstanding that that which we do for the dead profit not all those for whom wée doe them Yet neuerthelesse bicause we do not know to whom it profiteth we must do thē to all y we leaue none out For it is a greate deale better that those to whome it can neither profit nor hurte should haue more then they neede then to want any thing vnto those which haue neede And in the same booke he saith moreouer wee doe reade in the second booke of the Machabees that sacrifice was offred for the dead but when one readeth them not in the auncient scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church is not little the which hath