that being Priests you tell the world though against your minds that in your contention with us you are Anti-spiritists Anti-scripturists Anti-christians which is your name given you in Scripture In your Chapter after a subtile distinction betwixt the spirits virtue which you say is in all and the effects of it which are confined within narrow limits you come to shew who they are that have the gracious effects of Gods Spirit or his favour in them in order whereunto you say To know and disscern who they be the only way is to see their warrant and examine their works If their warrant prove that of miracles and their works good doubtless they have the favour of Gods Spirit if otherwise they are at the best but pretence-makers and ushâ—rs of innovation Answ 1. How or upon what ground you distinguish warrant from works as marks of Gods Spirit I know not this is a warrant for my belief that I have the Spirits favourable presence with me because I have good works which cannot proceed from any other fountain And hereby Christ and St. Paul as you say taught us to try men by and it stands with reason upon those accounts that you give Yet 2. It s false that they that want miracles have not the favor of Gods Spirit Amongst all the marks of a reprobate or enemy to God I do not find want of miracles to be any nor is the having of miracles a sign of one peâ—taking of the Spirits favour have all your Catholiques the gift of miracles or have none of them that want it the favour of Gods Sp rit You had need to arm them with a cordial Epistle against this uncomfortable doctrine Nay further Are all your Popes workers of miracles if we should suppose their works good I have read of the miracles of many of your Saints but I find little of the miracles of Popes Monks and votaries carry away the bell for miracles and dare you say your Popes have not the favour of Gods Spirit Lastly Sir are your self and companions workers of miracles If you be pray what are they Can you drink poison and not be hurt why then did not your Monk of Winstead Abby live after his potion Can you tread upon scorpions and they not sting you Can you speak with strange tongues which you have not learned Can you raise the dead make the lame to walk and the blind to see I know not that any of you claim a power of doing these Your pretence of casting out devils is a Jesuitical delusion of poor credulous ideots as I shall perhaps hereafter shew 3. I suppose your meaning is this they that hold their doctrine to be true which truth of Doctrine is an effect of Gods Spirit must prove it by good works and miracles so as that Doctrine that is not thus confirmed is false Doctrine as you assert in your next section But this is also untrue For 1. Miracles are not absolutely necessary for confirmation of Doctrine or of their calling who deliver it Unlesse 1. That which is taught be such as cannot be believed without miracles in regard of the strangness and newness of it Such was that Doctrine or teaching that Jesus the son of Mary was the Messiah promised that the Jewish ecclesiastical policy should see altered The ceremonial Law cease and that such and such events should happen in after-times these were our Saviours and the Apostles Doctrines and being such as I have shewed they needed confirmation by miracles 2. Unless those who Preach pretend to extraordinary inspiration and mission thus the Apostles and Prophets though not all of them shewed their extraordinary calling by miracles 3. When the Gospel began to be first planted and a Gospel Church gathered out of the World which did not acknowledg the Scriptures for true and therefore needed conviction some other way Hence 't is that miracles were common in the infancy of the Church but are not so now Sedulius upon 1 Cor. 14.22 where 't is said Sedul apud Lyran. Wherefore tongues are for a sign not to them that beleive but to them that believe not hath this note hic ostendit c. Whereas it said that signs were given in the behalf of infidels its manifest that faith encreasing they cease to which your Rhemists consent saying that the extraordinary gift of Tongues was a miraculous sign in the primitive Church Rhem. on 1 Cor. 14.22 to be used especially in the Nations of the Heathen for their conversion Gregory saith What shall we not beli ve if we do no miracles These were necessary in the beginning that faith might be cherished with miracles Greg. Theoph. apud Lyran. in Mark 16.17 but now faith being confirmed they are not necessary but it sufficeth that Doctrine be confirmed by the good works of those who preach and publish it as Theophilact speaketh I conceive your conscience check'd you for speaking of miracles and therefore your proofs in the next Section make only for good works which we grant 2ly From your Doctrine you make this inference whence it is plain that the Spirit of Spiritists is a false imposture a meere figment and delusion Answ This is nothing but a Jesuitical goundless imputation raised upon three grosse lies 1. Inasmuch as its destitute of miracles Answ 1. The Doctrines we teach being the Doctrines of our Saviour and his Apostles hath been confirmed by miracles in the primitive times both in them that taught and in them also that beleived it Mark 16.17 and this sufficeth to intitle us to miracles to this purpose is that of Chrysostom Si quis dicat sed non vidâ—â—us haec signa nunc fieri c. If any say but we see not these signs to be done now Chrysost Tom. 5. de resur ser 33. p. 521. c It may be answâ—red there is no difference whether they be done now or were done in time past Indeed for present miracles as we have them not so we need them not Our ministers pretend to no extraordinary inspiration nor to any Prophetical or Apostollical mission we make no alteration of the state of the Church from what it was by Christs institution nor teach any thing but what we ground upon the Word of God When you ask us to shew miracles we answer you in the words of your St. Bâ—net when he was urged to raise up a countrymans son Recedite fratreâ— recedite haec nostra non sunt c. Go your waies brethren Gaz. in Cassian Collat. 15. c. 2. Aug. apud Gaz. ibid. go your waies from us miracles belong not to us bâ—t to the holy Ap stles why do yâ—u lay burdens upon us which we cannot bear It s no lesse than a tempting of God now to attempt them Notable is the speech of Augustin to this purpose Quando tibi hoc suggerit inimicus c. When the enemy suggests this to thee what a man art thou What a Christian Hast thou wrought
so much as one miracle Hast thâ—u by thy prayers raised up the dead or r stâ—red them thaâ— have been sick of fâ—aâ—ers If thou wert of any worth thâ—u wouldst do some miracle Answer and say 't is writâ—â—n thou shâ—lt not tempt the Lord thy God I will not therefore tempt God as if I belonged to God if I did a miracle or did not belong to him if I did it not This is our answer when you demand of us miracles as evidences of the Spirits favour 2. You say The Spirit in us induceth to ill it perswading a disloyal deâ—ection fr m the Lords prayer the Commandments and church This is a most grosse and impudent slander we neither teach nor practise defection from the Lords Prayer the Commandments or that faith which the Apostles preached and the primitive Christians received from them We reverence and use the Lords Prayer as the most exact and perfect pattern of Prayer We insert it in our Catechisms teach it our children earnestly seek after those blessings it contains we have honourable and precious thoughts of it as of whatsoever Jesus Christ delivered to us We receive the Commandments as the rule of our obedience the guid of our way and as the Lord enables us do conform our selves thereto The like we say of the Church We reject no Doctrines that we know to be Apostolical Its our cleaving to the Apostolical Church which makes us to be hated of Papists What Creeds the ancient Churches of Christ have received we freely own and beleeve all things written therein though we ingeniously professe our dislike and rejection of your late coyned articles as not being received by former Churches Finally the Spirit that is in us doth not induce us to any ill we have indeed corruption in us which induceth us to ill but we pray and strive against it I dare affirm it and disprove it if you can that our reformed Ministry is as holy if not more than your Priesthood our people that receive the truth into their hearts walk as closely with God and as free from sin as most of your Catholiques yea its observable that the more free any parts are from popery and papists the more zealous and religious they are and more carefull sanctifiers of the Lords day Since it pleased God to set me in the place where I now live which is in the midst of Papists and popish persons I have given my self to observe their waies and I find the best of them notorious profaners of the Lords day spending it either in drinking or walking about from house to house or sporting and if they have Protestant servants imploying them about their worldly businesses as much as on any other day But Sir I may say of your self and such like as Hiero. of some Qâ—um bona imitari non queant c. Hierom. When they cannot imitate the good is in us which they can only do they envie us in this think themselves verie learned that they can detract from us You cannot imitate therefore enuy it s one peice of Jesuitical learning to slander What you bring those names of our Authors in your margent for I know not I am sure were they alive they would accuse you of slandring them 3. You say This Spirit in us prompteth things contrarie and inconsistent each with other Ans The Spirit in us is the Spirit of truth and leads us into truth not universally and infallibly as if we knew all truth and erred in nothing for it s not given fully and perfectly though there be light in us yet it s not without darkness if it were we should be Angels rather than men comprehensors rather then travellers This spirit keeps us from the destructivenesse of error not from error yet I say the confessions of the reformed Churches are most harmonious our Churches teach not things contrary nor inconsistent each with othea though particular men in our Churches may dissent in some points as in all Churches 3. In your last section you bring in and answer two Arguments formed as I suppose upon the anvile of your own brain 1. God is no accepter of persons his Spirit being free may breath on whom he pleaseth To this you answer This is out of the matter in hand here being no dispute of Gods power what he may do but of his will what he doth Reply When I know whose argument this is and see the form of it I shall vindicate it from your answer if I like it at present I shall shall only desire you to remember your answer when you come to the point of transubstantiation 2. Arg and Answ their other ground for insâ—iration upon the assurance of Consciencâ— St. Paul and St. Augustine convinced long since of weaknesse and coufinage Reply This argument came out of the same mint with the other for which of us lay any claim to inspiration 2. 'T is true we say that the Spirit bears witnesse with our spirits that we are the Children of God and doth not the Apostle say so Rom. 8.16 Your Rhemists confesse that by this testimony the Children of God have an attestation of his favour towards them 3. Whereas you object the example of St. Paul and Austin pray tell me can conscience never tell true because sometimes it erred there is an erring conscience is there therefore no rightly informed conscience You make notable inferences 4. May not conscience mistake in its judgment about works as to their goodnesse or badness nay was it not about works that St. Paul and Augustines conscience did erre you acknowledg it was the one persecuted the Church the other the Truth Why should not the Spirit when by conscience it testifies of it self be regarded as when it testifies of works You say conscience can have no greater certainty then the understanding that gaue it being and the understanding often misseth I grant that the understanding of it self is errable and subject to mistakes but being guided by the spirit its certain and so is conscience The Apostle saith We know thâ—t we dwâ—ll in him and he in us 1 John 4.13 because he hath given us of his Sprit and we see and do testifie c. Upon which words your Glosse saith Per hoc c. Hereby we prove that he hath given us of his holy Spirit because we see that is through the Spirit of inspiration by faith we know and by the testifying spirit do we witness c. CHAP. IX Of the Spiritists rule of Faith YOu begin with a distinction about the rule of faith which you say may be considered in it self or in r spect of us In it self its Gods reveal d truth in respect of us it s the same truth expressed to us Thus far say you Catholiques and Sâ—iritists agree their difference iâ— about the expression Answ 1. I conceive your distinction is vain and can hardly beleeve that Spiritists agree with you thus far For 1. I conceive the
Durand Scotus Gabriel and Almain for concluding that the authority of the Church is the reason of our belief of the things of Faith 2. From immediate inspiration of the Spirit Thus the Apostles were immediately inspired so that in their delivering of the truth they could neither fallere nec falli neither deceive nor be deceived this is taught by the Apostles Paul and Peter 2 Tim. 3.16 2 Pet. 1.21 The later of whom perswades us to give heed to the word of God because the holy pen-men of it were inspired by the H. Ghost Again for power which you leave unexplained it may be observed that there is a twofold power in order to this effect belonging to Christ 1. Authoritative which is his designation or appointment hereunto this may be understood by that text you cite As my Father sent me c. 2. Qualitative or dispositive this is Christs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the other is his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the one is his power the other his authority Again this power is exercised two wayes 1. By discoveries of the truth revealed to him Thus it s said All things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you Joh. 15.15 This is his outward teaching 2. By commanding the heart to believe and consent to those truths he reveals this power is spoken of by the Psalmist in Psal 110. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power Christ doth command the soul to receive the truth by stamping upon it a divine authority Majesty and withall by his Spirit discovering to the soul this authority and Majesty so stamped upon it This way doth Christ exercise his power in bringing the soul to close with the Scriptures as the rule of its belief 2. I proceed now to your consequence He having communicated his said knowledg and power to the Apostles and in them to the succeeding Churches but she may challenge a like interest and right in respect of after-Christians Ans 1. You tell us of succeeding Churches but lest you should seem to forget your dear Mother or give other Churches liberty to claim equal priviledges with her whilst you talk of Churches you neglect construction and come in with a She may challenge 2. 'T is false that she may justly challenge a like interest and right in respect of after-Christians as to the propounding of a rule of belief to them For 1. There is no need of another rule for them the rule that Christ propounded being suited to all Christians and fully sufficient and perfect as your self confess If that Christs teaching hath the full height and perfection of a rule i. e. be a compleat and perfect rule what needs another rule or can this other rule be higher then that which hath its full height or have greater extent then that which is perfect the perfection of Christs rule shews that nothing can be added to it If you say it was perfect as for the first Christians but not for after Christians I desire to know the ground of this distinction for I am ignorant of it 2. The succeeding Church hath not communicated to her the same knowledg and power that Christ had her knowledg is not universal there hath been in every Age since your Churches Apostacy an addition of supposed truths which the former Age believed not Your Pius 4. hath added some Articles to the ancient Creeds as necessary to be believed unto Salvation which formerly were not so imposed if once thought of sure then the Church before the Trent Council either knew not the whole revealed will of God and so could not by their preaching lay an exact rule of belief or you propound a larger object then Faith will well admit Again her knowledg is not infallible as I shewed in the beginning of this Chapter the present Church of Rome hath notoriously swerved from Primitive purity in their late Articles of Pope Pius his Creed Besides this it cannot claim either of these means of infallibility which I mentioned before the same may be said of power it s not the same with Christ they want both his power and authority as I have explained them Indeed if that which the succeeding Churches preach and teach be the same that Jesus Christ and his Apostles preached and taught then it is a rule of Faith to us but thus it s not the teaching of the Church that makes it a rule but its identity with the Scriptures the marrow of Christs and the Apostles preaching Thus the assertion is true otherwise the Churches teaching without respect to Scripture is not a Rule as I have already shewed and this is my Antagonists meaning as appears by his next words All matters of Faith as well other points as Scripture are to be taken up upon her account c. 2. Consequence or rather the first consequence arising from that is in these words Whence it follows pag. 13. that all matters of belief as well other points as Scripture are to be taken up upon her account and credit Ans 1. If by other points you understand other points of Faith then are contained in Scripture you take that for granted which is notoriously false viz. that there are points of Faith which the Scriptures containe not and consequently that they are imperfect and insufficient to be a rule of Faith and this is most false For 1. Whatsoever was contained in the ancient Creeds which were rules of Faith to those Christians that used them that was all contained in Scripture and more was not imposed as necessary to be believed to Salvation I deny not but your Trent Creed contains more then Scripture even many Articles which learned men say cannot be proved but out of unwritten Traditions but as it contains more then Scripture so is it much larger then any Creed that was used before it so that either their Faith was imperfect having an imperfect foundation or yours is redundant transgresseing the bounds of a right and ancient rule 2. The Scriptures testifie their own sufficiency 2 Tim. 3.15 16. I desire you to consider these two following Texts Act 26.22 with chap. 20.27 Lyran. He had declared the whole counsel of God so far as concerned Salvation and yet preached nothing but what the Scriptures did contain Ans 2. If you mean that we are to believe that the Scriptures are the Word of God and that other fundamental points besides this The Scriptures are the word of God are the truths of God and to be believed meerly because the Church asserts it so that the Churches affirmation of them should be the formal cause of our belief of these truths as I suppose you mean this I deny For 1. The Scriptures contain in themselves arguments that may convince a true Christian that they are the Word of God Many notes are given by Protestants which to you pulling them in pieces and viewing them singly seem weak which conjunctim or all together have
much strength in them He that reads the Scriptures with a spiritually enlightened mind cannot but confess that never meer man spake like the Holy Writers and that flesh and blood revealed not those things to them which they declare but God only 2. Upon what account was this truth taken up by the first Christians for the space of three hundred years after Christ they could not take it up upon the Churches account and credit for your Authors hold that its only in the power of Oecumenical Sinods to define which are the Scriptures and for this time there was no such a Sinod called The first Sinod that I finde delivering the Canon of Scripture was that of Laodicea held about the year 364. Afterwards the third Council of Carthage both Provincial Sinods only though afterwards confirmed in a General Council 3. Upon what account or credit doth your Church take up this truth that the Scriptures are the Word of God Sure you are so great an Enemy to Spiritists that you will not think of extraordinary Revelations or Enthusiasms I hardly think that ever the Holy Ghost fell upon your Popes or Councils in fiery Tongues or that they had either visions or dreams nor do I think that you will say that your Church propoundeth the Canon of Scripture meerly upon the supposal of former practise that former Churches did allow and believe the Scriptures now received are Canonical for this is only a testimony concerning matter of fact in which 't is confessed the Pope may erre through wrong informations There may be spurious Canons foisted into former Councils like Pope Zozimus Canon of the Nicene Council whereby he maintained his Supremacy I therefore suppose that your judgment must be that your Church assisted by the Spirit doth from internal notes of Scripture conclude the divine authority thereof Hence 't is that Councils proceed by argument and reason and there is an acknowledgment of the truth before they proceed to definition or Decree Now if the Church take up Scripture upon this account that she through the assistance of Gods Spirit discerns the notes and marks of Gods Word why may not a Christian by the same assistance discover these notes and so believe that the Scriptures are Gods Word upon the same account that the Church takes up this beliefe though withal he doth and ought to reverence and highly account of the judgment of the Church or Pastors of it as that which hath a Priority and is an occasion of Christians private judgment and a confirmation of it yet as I hinted before it must not be denied that Christians have a divine light in themselves being taught of God Joh. 6.45 which is for the discovery of divine objects as natural light or reason is for the discovery of natural This Bellarmine confesseth saying Bellar. de lumine fid Conc. 1. Quemadmodum omnes homines c. As all men are indued with a certain natural light whereby they understand the first principles to be true without labour without arguments nor is there any that demands reasons and arguments when those principles are propounded So also all Christians enlightened by God with a certain divine and supernatural light do acknowledg the first principles of our Faith though difficult and exceeding reason to be most true Origen in his Book 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where he proves the Divinity of Scriptures by divers arguments Origen lib. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cap. 1. as Protestants do hath a notable speech to this purpose Si quis cum omni judicio c. If any one doth judiciously and with that reverence that is meet consider of the Sacred Writ while he reads and diligently searcheth into it most certainly having his minde and senses affected with some divine inspiration he acknowledgeth that the word he reads is not the word of men but of God and of himselfe perceives ex semetipso sentiet that these books are written not by humane art or mortal eloquence but by the hand of God Thus I suppose it was with the first Christians of whom you cannot say that they believed the books of Scripture to be the Word of God meerly because the Apostles and others held them they were so but upon other account this overthrows your Position What I have said of the Scriptures may be said of other points of Faith that they are not taken up meerly or mainly upon the Churches credit and account but rather because God hath revealed them in his Word wherein they are therefore written that we might have a sure argument for our Faith But I come to your next inference 2 Consequence or Conclusion Whatsoever comes upon any other score is to be reputed Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of faith Magna Diana Romanorum Great is your Roman Goddess but its only with the Shrine-makers of Rome your conclusion is very high but notoriously false For 1. It s not the Churches definition that makes any book Apocriphal but the want of divine inspiration in those who wrote them so that whatsoever is not written by the Prophets or Apostles the Subjects of divine inspiration that is certainly Apocriphal whether the Church receive them or not Hence many of your learned men reject those books as Apocriphal which the Council of Trent declared to be Canonical the Apostle saith All Scripture is by divine inspiration 2 Tim. 3.16 the Scriptures of the Old Testament are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Pet. 1.19 read Luke 24.27 2. It was six hundred years after Christ before any General Council delivers the Canon of Scripture now will you say that till that time the books of Scripture were Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith 3. The Spirit of God may work Faith in the Soule while it is reverently reading the Word of God without the testimony of the Church the person for the present being ignorant what the Church teacheth of particular points this is clear by the place of Origen even now mentioned Lyranus speaks of a teaching of the Spirit Lyran. in 1 Joh. 2.27 Vbi deficit humana Doctrina 4. When the Thessalonians received the Apostles Doctrine not as the word of men but as the Word of God Greg. Analus fid lib. 1. c. 15. was this Doctrine no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith Your Gregory of Valence confesseth Multa sunt c. There are many points of Christian Doctrine which of themselves can procure to themselves credit and authority Lastly the Greek Church with the reformed Churches receive all the Articles of the Apostles Creed because consonant to Gods Word not because delivered by your Roman Diana are those Articles therefore to be reputed Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith Sure you cannot be so impudent as to assert it though we know Jesuitical impudency is not little For your Scriptures Sect. 2. When I see them reduced to arguments I shall
capacity of our condition is not sufficient to denominate or render the subject it is in perfect or an exact keeper of the Law of God If a debter owe twenty pound and hath but five pound which he pays to his Creditor doth the payment of this five pound which is as much as the present capacity of his condition reacheth to denominate and render him a perfect payer of his debt I trow not and pray Sir shew the difference betwixt this and your assertion CHAP. VI. Of Religion 1. YOu assert that Religion consists in belief not humane grounded upon reason but relying on the Churches authority and the assistance of the Holy Ghost Religio est virtus perquam homines Deo debitum cultum reverentiam exhibent Aquin. 22. q. 81. 1. c. religio est quae cultum honorem Deo tribuit Azor instit mor. p. 1. l. 3. c. 26. l. 9. c. 5. p. 23. Answ 1. The proper act of Religion is to worship and bring honour to God with relation to whom only Religion is defined by your Schoolmen and others This worship is due to God only and is that whereby we give up our selves unto God as the supream Lord of all and do place our hope and that in him as Azorius defines it According to this faith is a part of divine worship an act of Religion but relating to God the supream Lord of all not to the Church which is only a servant under him or if you will an assembly of his servants and indeed its reason that faith should refer to God it being the principal act by which a creature honours God and therefore is more pressed then any other Evangelical duty and besides its requisite it have a settled object to rest upon which is Gods authority for the Churches is not always visible Abraham beleeved but his faith relied not upon the Churches authority The Blessed Virgins faith could not rest upon any authority of the Church especially at Christs death when your men affirm that the Church was in her only but even then the Word of God the material object of faith had a visible existence and the fidelity of God faiths formal object was present with her to lean upon The Scriptures you urge to prove that faith relies on the Churches authority viz. Mark 16. John 14. make nothing for you the later speaks only of the Disciples instruction by the Spirit of God The former proves that we must beleeve the Gospel the material object of faith but saith not a word of the Church it saith not he that relies upon the Churches authority shall be saved Whosoever beleeves the Gospel whether he receive it from the Church or not shall be saved I challenge you or any that dotes on the word Church to give me any Scriptures that teacheth to beleeve in or on the Church and think you not the Apostles knew how to speak as well as you 2. I have already shewed that the Churches authority is but humane in the judgment of learned Papists and that the Spirits assistance makes her not infallible nor a guide or rule of belief Your self do in effect confesse at least of the present Church For you say pag. 16. To be the guide of belief requires further ability and skill to lay open immediately to belief Gods reveled truth a prerogative belongs to the Church and no other as to whom alone revelation was made Now this ability is not in the Church she laies not open immediately Gods reveiled truth whether hereby you mean that the Church speaks to the heart the seat of faith or that she doth it not by means of the Scriptures the Church lays open divine truths by the means of Scripture Besides the Church is not the subject of revelation which you say is the foundation of this prerogative Your Logical proceeding in councels shew your want of reuelation Your consciousness hereof makes you say revelation WAS made it was but is not so now 3. Your inference hereupon is 1. Thus The Religion of sectaries is vain their b lief being grounded on some humane respect not upon the warrantable authority of the Church ibid. Answ There may be belelief gounded neither on the authority of the Church nor on humane respects Consult Azorius and he will tell you that there are Cathâ—liques who ground not their faith on the authority of the Church and yet ground it not upon humane respects The Word of God revealed unto us by the light of faith wrought in the soul by the spirit is no humane respect and this Orthodox Christians build their belief upon 2. Inference For them to deserve the name of true Christians and to be stiled of the right Religion their only way is to level at perfection that takes its rise from an absolute resignation of their wills to the will of God in order to the Church which is to become spiritually little ones Matth. 18. Answ 1. Where do you learn that this grounding our belief upon the authority of the Church is the way yea the only the way to be true Christians and of the right Religion Are not those Papists who differ from you in this point and such there are as I have shewed true Christians and of the right Religion I am sure they are Papists for the main and therefore cannot be of a wrong Religion if popery be the right 2. Who told you that that Text of Matthew was to be so expounded I have seen divers expositions of the fathers on this Text different from yours but I find not one that from it doth teach us to ground our faith on the Church as the only way to true Christianity and the right Religion 3. It s a good lesson to teach us to submit our wills to the Will of God but it doth not appear that we should ground our faith upon the Churches authority the Scriptures are altogether ignorant and destitute of expressions of such a duty CHAP. VII Of the unity of Religion JN the beginning of this Chapter you assert that True Religion is One but presently fal upon the unity of persons in this one Religion and to the means whereby they come to be united which means you propound in these words viz. Experience shews that this unity of Religion is an effect of acknowledging the Church for the rule of belief it being visible to the eye that all that square their belief to the Church are one in religion whereas they that take to themselves other rules discent and jarre c. p. 28. Asw 1. Whether those who acknowledg the Church for the rule of belief be so one in Religion as that they neither dissent nor jarre I refer it to any mans judgment who hath but ordinary insight into the writers of Popish controversies I wonder whose experience it is that finds it Or what Alseeing eye it is that discerns All acknowledgers of the Churches authority to be one in Religion Have you seen
Christ which they had before resisted 4. Your fourth text shews if it be any thing to our present purpose that the Spirit and your Roman Church are two Masters that cannot both be served and therefore it s not strange you have opposed the Spirit whilst you have stood for your Churches interest But Sir know that the Spirit of God and the true Church are not contrary Masters much lesse the Spirit of God in private persons and the same Spirit in publique Ministers The Spirit of God is in the Church and in every particular and reall member thereof revealing himself to each according to the capacity and need of every member 2. You affirm concerning the Scriptures that the Scripture is deficient which you prove by Scripture and by Reason 1. By Scripture for Scripture attesteth it in that it refers to the Church Answ 1. The Scripture never refers to the Church for the perfecting of it that so it may become a perfect Rule of Faith Azor. instit moral part 2. l. 5. c. 24. ad finem if it do shew me where for I know not 2. Your own Authors confesse that the Church cannot make an article of faith how then can she supply the Scriptures deficiency 2. You attempt to prove it by reason saying reason makes it good because it declares not all points that Christians are bound to believe which they acknowledg themselves bound to beleeve Answ 1. I could bring many testimonies to prove that Scripture is a rule your selves grant it to be a rule when you call it Canonical with exclusion of other writings now it s no rule if it be not perfect for the rule that faith requires ought to be as full and ample as the duty of faith 2. The Scripture asserts that whatsoever we are bound to beleeve as necessary to salvation to be beleeved is contained in Scripture that noted place 2 Tim. 3.15 16. makes it evident the abundant utility shews its sufficiency to instruct any to salvation that speech of Biel Quomodo anima hominis In Can. miss lect 7. f. 146. c. How can the soul of man live the life of Righteousnâ—sse and Grace unlesse it know Gods will and those things which according to it are just or unjust to be done or to be left undone to be loved or to be hated to be fear'd or to be attempted and what are to be beleeved and wâ—at to be hoped for with what ever else is necessary to our salvation all which sola docet sacra Scriptura the sacred Scripture alone tâ—acheth Indeed we grant that all things to be beleived are not expresly set down in Scripture nevertheless what is not expressed may be deduced from that which is expressed or analogically reduced thereunto But I come to your instances of points of faith which Scripture declares not 1. Instance concerning Scriptures You say they declare not that those books of Scripture which are received for Canonical are so indeed that some are Canonical other some Apocriphal that they are determinately these or others â—nsw 1. They do declare that those books which are received for Canonical by Protestants are such and the Apocryphal books are not such For 1. One part of Scriptures gives testimony of another The New Testament bears witness of those books that go under the name of Moses the Prophets and Psalms again they give testimony to the New Testament Yea the whole Scripture doth bear witness to it self that it is the Word of God haveing those intinsecal notes whereby it may be known thus it is with the book of the creatures which sets forth the wisdom power and goodness of God and is therefore a witnesse thereof Now if it be asked whence it appears that this is a witnesse it must be granted that it appears by that order which is in the Creation together with the profitablenesse and usefullnesse of all things in their places The harmony consent spiritual profit c. of Gods Word in Scripture doth evidence that it is Gods Word and sacred Scripture If it were not thus that Scripture gave testimony of it self how doth the Church it self know Scripture to be Scripture She cannot plead Enthusiasme and the humane testimony of Fathers is no sufficient ground for infallibility 2ly All things are written by the Apostles which are necessary to be beleeved by all men Bellarm. de suffis script c. 11. these are Bellarmines words but to beleeve the Scriptures to be the Scripture is necessary for all men say you therefore it must needs follow that its written by the Apostles that the Scriptures are Scriptures 3ly By way of retortion I pray Sir how do you know that this or the other is the true Church for this Bellarmine saith must be certainly known in as much as all opinions depend upon his testimonies The same way that you say the Church may be known even by it self the same way do we know the Scriptures they give evidence to themselves 4th The exact knowledg of what books are Canonical is not absolutely necessary to be beleeved I deny not but the knowledg of Gods Word is thus necessary and this may be where that knowledg is wanting It cannot rationally be denyed that Christians for some hundred years after the Apostles did know the Word of God yet wanted exact knowledg of what books were Canonical nor was the knowledg of them judged necessary to salvation 2. Instance concerning the Jewish Sabboth You say The Scripture declare not that the Jews Sabboth â—s to be neglected and laid aside and the sunday solemnized An w. The Scriptures declare both The first Col. 2.16 17. Let no man judg you in respect of the Sabboth days which are a shaddow of things to come but the body is of Christ Azorius saith the precept of the Sabboth Azor. inst tuor p. 2. l. 1. c. 1. if you consider the determinate and set time did belong to the ceremonial Law and therefore was abolished by the death of Christ Now the Scriptures are most clear and full for the abolishing of the ceremonies For the second the Scriptures expresly teach the solemnization of Sunday 1 Cor. 16. Apoc. 1. Calling it the Lords day Rhem. amot on Gal. 4.10 The Rhemists say In the Apoc. c. 1. There is plain mention of the Sunday that is our Lords day unto which the Jewes Sabboth was altered 3. Instance Concerning the Creed you say The Scriptures declare not that the Creed is authentique and truly the Apostles Answ 1. If you consider the matter of it the Scriptures declare that it is truly authentique and the Apostles for the articles thereof are Apostolique Doctrine contained in the Scriptures Every article may be proved by them 2ly If you consider the form or composure of it that the Apostles made it each one of them addding an article to it this is not necessary to be beleived being but grounded on humane fallible testimony 4. Inst Concerning things indifferent
hid and conceal their opinions and whilst the Church doth what she can to cast them out of her These would be a plea for your Church if the supposition were true But you urge further thus Protestants Bishops and Pastors if mingled with Catholiques did neither beleeve nor profess their Doctrine but only concealed and covered their own for fear of the formidable rigour of Catholiques and such could neither be true nor make a saving Church Not true because the mission of true Bishops and Pastors being founded upon persecution and suffering Mat. 10. Luk. 11. it is proper to them to fear no Colours nor make up a saving Church by reason profession of faith is necessary to Salvation Rom. 10. Mat. 10. Repl. 1. It must not be granted that Protestant Pastors did meerly conceal and cover their own Faith and Doctrine there was much crying out against errors and disorders in the Popes Church by many though not without sufferings Gersom for speaking freely against the disorders of the Roman Church was deprived of his goods and dignities by the Pope and expulsed the University by the Sorbonists Laurentius valla was exiled by the Pope John of Vesalia a preacher at Worms was sharply handled by the inquisitors for opposing indulgences auricular confession Pilgrimages Merit c. Berengerius openly declared against Transubstantiation for which he was not well handled Read our Martirologies and it will evidently appear that Protestants did not only not conceal their own Doctrines but opposed yours 2. It s not simply unlawful nor altogether unsuitable to the true saving members of the Church to conceal or hide the truth Confession is a duty but the precept binds not ad semper there are some cases wherein it s not necessary viz. 1. When we are not brought before authority to be examined about our Faith but if we be brought before them our Sauiours precept Mat. 10 binds us to Confession 2. When by our profession there is no hopes of doing good or bringing any advantage to the truth Hos 4.4 Mat. 7.6 Thus Protestants might conceal the truth when they saw their Confession was not advantageous to the Truth or the Salvation of those with whom they were although when brought before authority they did still profess it and dye for it 3ly They might be lawful Pastors though they might conceal the truth from their enemies for a time else what think you of Peter who did more then conceal even deny his Religion Of Liberius who accepted of Arianism Certainly if these were not true Bishops your Chain of Succession will be a broken piece Your Priests in England at this day hide their persons and with them the open confession of their supposed Truth they preach not openly they administer not the Sacraments openly they exercise not their mortal Devils openly and that for fear of apprehension and punishment due to such Vagabonds and yet your ignoramusses depend upon their Benediction as Spiritual Fathers 4ly Your reason is divers ways peccant 1. It s improper to say the Mission of true Bishops is founded upon persecutions and sufferingse 1. Are persecutions the Bases of pastoral Mission then if persecution cease the Bishops and Pastors cease to be true Bishops and Pastors the building cannot stand when the Foundation is fallen then your Popes or Cardinals c. are no true Bishops or Pastors for they live in great pomp and ease and suffer nothing unless that by their intemperance they get bodily diseases which is nothing to Truth Indeed since through your freedom from persecutions your Chalâ—ces were of gold your Priests have been but wooden Images 2. You mistake the cause of their concealing the Truth which was not a distracting and a distrustful fear which looks mainly at torments as you imagine but their fear was a sober fear 1. Lest the Church of God should be deprived of them by reason of their profession of truth at such a time when there was no visible advantage accruing to it 2. Lest they should incur the guilt of their own deaths by unreasonable profession See Mat. 7.6 Whence Lyranus infers Lyran. in Mat. 7.6 that the secrets of Faith are not to be revealed to obstinate unbeleevers because hereby may ensue the derision of the Catholique Faith and the murder of the Ministers Our Saviour gives liberty to his Disciples if they were persecuted in one City to fly to another Mat. 10.23 Yet bids them not fear Ver. 26. Clemens Alexandrinus sets this forth very well speaking of flying in time of persecution Swadet fugere c. He perswades us to flee not as if it were evil to suffer persecution nor that we should fear death but he would not have us authors or abettors of evil either to our selves or him that persecutes or him that kills us for he warns us that we be cautelous but he that obeys not is audacious and rash and unadvisedly casts himself upon manifest dangers now if he that slays a Man of God sins against God he also is guilty of this murder who doth not avoid persecution but through audacity offers himself to be apprehended for in as much as in him lies he helps on the wickedness of the persecutor Otherwise our Protestant Bishops and Pastors have as couragiously professed the truth and for it undergone with patience and constancy as great torments from Popeish hands as ever any in any age of the world did So that were you not blinded with rage against Protestants you could not but blush to charge them with fearfulness of professing the truth For a conclusion of this I desire you look home to your English Priests those Hedghogs whose appearance is mainly in the night and in darkness who are so far from a voluntary and open profession of their faith that I do not know of any one that ever suffered upon this account viz. the open and publike profession of his faith though they pretend themselves guarded with power of miracles which might make them more valiant 5. If your self were of that stout Spirit you charge us with the want of what needed you to write Paris for London or L. B. for your concealed name 5ly You conclude your Answer to this Shape with an exposition of the parables of the Wheat and Chaff Mat. 3. and of the Fishes Mat. 13. to which you say The comparisons are ment of private men for matter of manners and not of any mixture of true and false doctrine Orthodoxal and Heretical Bishops and Pastors tâ—gether Rep. 1. It s most certain that these comparisons do set forth the mixture which is in the visible Church which your self even now contradicted Yea 2. These mixtures extends to mixtures of Doctrine and Teachers as well as of private Christians in manners the ordinary gloss understands Mat. 13.25 Of the mixture of Heretiques with the Elect. Augustin also by Cockle doth understand Heretiques who in this world are mingled with the Orthodox his words are ful against you Aug. Ap.
it is first to be regarded But you reply to this p. 67. As Scripture so what it contains would be as to belief hid and unknown but for the Churches information Answ This hath been formerly confuted Scripture gives a firmer and more convincing testimony to it self then men can give to it The efficacy of the word in the heart of him that reads and meditates in it is more powerfull to perswade him that its the Word of God then a 1000 Fathers or Popes the same may be said of the truth contained in it When the error of administring the Sacrament of the Supper was the Doctrine of the Church I appeal to any man to tell me whether the Scripture would not have manifested what was truth better then Pope Innocentius or any of his erring nephewes I 'm sure the Pope would not have informed what was truth according to Scriptures in that point and yet there were means of finding out the truth else all his Proselites had erred with him which would be dangerous to affirm It is the Scripture that declares and manifests the Church and therefore must be more mafest than the Church But you prove it thus The knowledge faith requires must be supernaturally certain and consequently an effect of the Holy Ghosts pâ—culiar assistance which is onely warranted to the Church and not to every private reading and reasoning Answ If you speak of the Holy Ghosts infallible assistance we grant the Apostles had it and therefore their knowledge was certain and their writings we ground our faith upon but this assistance is not now given to any You plead but for the Holy Ghosts peculiar assistance how this is warranted not onely to the Church but to private Christians For first Christ promiseth it to them Jer. 31.34 and assures them God will give it them if they ask Luke 11.13 2. Christ invites them to seek it Apoc. 3.18 3. The Apostle affirms that private Christians have it 1 John 2.27 The pride of Popish Prelates is intollerable they forsooth and none else have the peculiar assistance of Gods spirit to enlighten them Poore Christians must be robd of their spirituall Pastor that Popish Priests may be the onely teachers But I think your conscience struck you when you were penning this sentence and therefore to evade it in stead of saying Not to provide persons you say not to every private reading or reasoning which makes as much against your Popes and Priests as private Christians if those do ever reade and reason in private I grant that the Spirit is not given to every private person in every reading and reasoning No more as I said is he given to every or any Pope in every private reading or reasoning When the Pope speaks not ex Cathedra he 's as subject to ignorance and error as the poorest Christian and may erre by your own confession and he 's not alwayes in his chair But I dare affirm that private Christians in their serious reading of Gods Word joyned with Prayer and diligence may expect the peculiar assistance of God to lead them into the knowledge of Gods truth this is clearly promised Psal 25.9.12.14 upon our asking of him James 1.5 If any man want wisedom Spiritum illuminatorem saith the gloss Let him ask it of God c. The Psalmist prayeth that God would open his eyes that he may understand wonderfull things of Gods Law so should private Christians do through the want of spirit the Jews though they read the Scriptures they understand them not the vail is upon their eyes but it is to be done away in Christ by the Spirit of the Lord. Here is not a word of the Churches taking away this vail 2. You prove it by S. Paul S. Paul is plain Let men esteem us as the Ministers of Christ and dispensers of Gods mysteries 1 Cor. 4. Answ The words indeed are plain and easy to be understood but I know not how they make for you they do not prove that the Apostles had the peculiar assistance of Gods Spirit much less do they prove that private Christians are not capable of it All that they prove is this that the Corinthians ought not to contemn or vilifie Paul or any but account of them according to their calling as Christs servants and dispensers of divine mysteries 3. You prove it by experience saying Experience confirms no less in Seperatists who laying aside the Church and presuming upon their own readings and reasonings have vented as many absurd and extravagant impieties as they had base and exorbitant passions p. 68. A. 1. When men presume upon their readins and raesonings without having respect to the Spirit of God it 's no wonder if they err Reason is no sufficient guide in exposition of Scripture Flesh and blood reveals it not to us but the Spirit Hence it is that those Heretiques in Jude are noted by their want of the Spirit and this was the cause of their erring 2. The Church never put forth any Publike Commentary whereby the sense of Scripture might appear and therefore the Churches Exposition is a meer Chimera Suppose a Christian should desire to acquaint himself with Scripture as that which you say contains part of Gods Will but he dares not venture upon it himself and therefore desires to be guided by the Churches Exposition now he knows not where to meet with it I pray Sir could you direct him where he might find it The Fathers do not all of them alwayes agree and he finds their Expositions often rejected by your learned Doctors and somtimes they deserve not to be received Your Doctors of the Church are as different in their Expositions as can be as that Text of James some understand it of Extream Unction others deny that Extream Unction can be proved by it and for your Popes they seldome expound Scripture and when they do it their Expositions are oft irrational as that of Rom. 8.6 by Lyricus and seldom obvious In this case either the study of Scripture must be quite laid aside or else there must be some other guide thought of besides the Church which can be no other then the Spirit of God by which we are enabled to judg which is the true sense of Scripture Vid Can. loc Theol. l. 7. c. 3. Cajetan seems to approve of this when he adviseth that no man dislike a new sense of Scripture because it dissents from Ancient Fathers for God hath not confined the Exposition of Scripture to their sences but to Scripture it self Which way of finding out the sense of Scripture by comparing one place with another is done by the help of Gods Spirit principally though the advise of Pastors may come secondarily in as subservient thereunto 3. Those who have cried up the Church as some of them vented as absurd and extravagant impieties as any Schismatique What more absurd and extravagant Exposition can there be then that of Lyricus on Rom. 8. They that are married cannot
bread should become the body of Christ to us and that the Pascall Lamb or Manna should be so to the Jewes for Christ is called the Passover of Manna yea in these Sacraments Christ was truely and savingly received by them they did eat the same spirituall meat with us and drank the same spirituall drink for they drank of the Rock that followed them And that Rock was Christ What can be more express than these last words yet Papists will not here allow of Transubstantiation 2. That Bodies are the object of Sense yea and that the Senses cannot be deceived in judging of them whilest the Organ is rightly disposed the medium is convenient the distance equall the Sences of more then one concur in judgeing and that the phantasies be not hurt But here if the words be taken properly is a body which is not the object of Sense though the sences be rightly disposed the medium convenient the distance equall c. If you say it may be done by a miracle I answer first amongst the miracles of the Primitive Church this was never numbred by them or any others that I have read though its a greater miracle if a miracle than any others that are mentioned 2. In those miracles recorded in Scripture which were wrought by transmutation there was no deceiving of the Sense When Moses rod was turned into a Serpent as it was a true Serpent so the Senses did truely discern a Serpent When the waters were turned into blood the blood had the last colour effect of blood slaying the fish in it When by our Saviour the waters were turned into wine as it was true wine so it had sensible qualities as the last smell c. of wine It was the practice of the Sorcerers of Egypt to cause an appearance when there was no reall existance It s the practice of Papists to urge a bodily existence without the least appearance like their forefathers the Valentinians whom Irenaeus chargeth with saying of Christ Aliud erat aliud videbatur when some affirmed in the Sacrament there was no true fraction but onely in appearance Lorichius answers out of Ambrose Nihil falsum putandum in Sacramento veritatis c. We must not think of any falshood in this true Sacrament in the inchantments of Magitians the eyes are deceived that that seems to be which is not but it s otherwise in the Sacrament of Truth Gerrhard Lorich Instit Cathol de sacr Eucharist pag. 72. 2. To this I may adde that the materiall parts of Sacraments must be sensible objects such were the Sacraments of the Jewes and such without controversie is Baptisme where the materiall part is water which the Senses see feel c. Therefore it must be so in the Eucharist for there can no reason of a difference be given You cannot say that the materiall parts of it are bread and wine for you teach that in the Sacrament there is neither bread nor wine though there was before Consecration and the body of Christ cannot be it for it s not a sensible object being neither seen nor felt nor tasted and accidentall forms are distinct from matter Aquinas delivers this Conclusion Cum naturale sit homini c. Whereas its naturall for man to attain to the knowledge of intelligible objects by those which are sensible A Sacrament which signifies spirituall and intelligible good ought to be a sensible thing which how you will find it in your Sacrament I know not 3. That humane flesh is not to be eaten But if these words This is my Body be taken properly then Christs flesh should be carnally eaten which is doctrine for Cannibals not for Christians Saint Augustine upon this very ground understands those words John 6.53 Except ye eat the flesh c. figuratively and delivers this generall rule Aug. de doctr Christ l. 5. c. 16 Si aut facinus vel flagitium c. If the Scripture seem to command that which is hainous and wicked it s a figurative speech and instances in those words in S. John Papists give this reason of the invisibility of Christs body in this Sacrament because man abhors to eat humane flesh in the proper shape But what difference between one man seeing the shape of humane flesh and anothers hearing of such a thing to be humane flesh though he see it not It s the thing it self not the form or shape of it that is abominable a piece of humane flesh might be brought into such a form as it could not by the eye be distinguished from other flesh yet tell a man its humane flesh and he shall loath it upon that very report Though your seduced followers do not see flesh in thr Sacrament yet you tell and perswade them that the Host is humane flesh with its blood in it so that I must needs say they have either weak faith or strong stomacks To conclude Let me know to what end is this eating of Christs body for it s not turned into the substance of our body whereby it should nourish the body for then our bodies should consist of Christ which were a blasphemous assertion and for the soul it s not nourisht by carnal meat as flesh and blood spirits do not eat or drink nor are they capable of nutrition there is no Spirituall advantage comes by it Besides when our Saviour had been speaking so fully of eating his flesh and drinking his blood to prevent their carnall conceits of this spirituall Doctrine he addi this wholsome and seasonable doctrine that for his body it was to ascend up into Heaven where he was before and therefore his words were to be understood not carnally but Spiritually The words that I speak are Spirit John 6.63 You answer that these words do not run counter to your said truth in as much as these words were uttered to the Capernaits in answer to their question of Christs Power and not of the signification of his words Reply 1. I desire to know your ground for this Exposition I cannot finde that it is the Churches and I thought you an enemy to the private spirit 2. It s most evident that these words are uttered for explication of the words precedent for having told them that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood if they had life by him they question what he may mean by eating his flesh and drinking his blood and they seem to answer their own question by a carnall conceit which was as the Rhemists observe They imagined that he would kill himself and cut and mangle his flesh into parts and so give it them raw or rost to be eaten among them which could not be meant saith Augustine for that had contained an hainous and barbarous fact c. He tells them therefore they must understand his words spiritually of our abiding in him and he in us according to Augustine Tract 27. in Joan. tom 9. Lyra. in text Lyranus speaks very well to this purpose
Spiritus c. They are Spirit as if he should say the words I have spoken have a Spirituall sence and so they vivifie they have a Spirituall understanding the flesh of Christ is eaten in this Sacrament in a spiritual manner Your pleas for this opinion are vain 1. You say The question was not what says he that they knew would be trifling and ridiculous Christ having immediately before confirmed the signification of his first words This is my Body By other latter Vnless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you shall have no life in you and they both heard and understood the language he spake in Reply 1. Pray where are those first words This is my Body You shut your eyes and laid aside your honesty when you brought them in as spoken by Christ before his supposed answer But suppose them there tell us next how those latter words doe confirme the signification of them 2. When you tell us they knew what he said and both heard and understood the language he spake in you will shew your self a notorious trifler Wil it follow that because they knew his words heard understood his language that therfore they understood his meaning I trow not Those that read the hard of places of Pauls Epistles did both hear understand the language he spake in yet knew not his meaning and therefore wrested them to their own perdition The Jews both heard and understood the language Christ delivered his parables in yet it was not given them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven Nicodemus understood Christs language but not his meaning about regeneration You cannot deny but the Laity may both hear and understand the language whereinto the Scriptures are translated yet their private Spirit must not think of understanding the Scriptures meaning Thus though these Capernaits might and did understand his language yet they did remaine ignorant of their true meaning as all prudent Expositors confess and your Rhemists expresly affirm saying Their gross and carnal conceiving of his words of his flesh and the manner of eating the same was unprofitable which is plain by the sentence following where he warneth tâ—em that his words be spiri life of high mystical meaning and not vulgarly and grosly to be taken as they took them 2. You adde Therefore except you will say that Christ answered not to the purpose his scope and aime must be to declare his power to the â—nd to convince the Capernaits that he was full able to perform what he said Reply 1. If you will have it the aim of Christ to declare his power to perform what he said and that directly in answer to the Caperâ—aits question you must grant that Christ did declare his ability to give them his body cut mangled into pieces for so they understand the eating of his flesh and thereupon grounded their question How can this man give us his flesh cut and mangled into pieces for the effecting of this they expected a proof of his power if you will have it so Now this your selfe will grant impossible being contrary to the will of God the measure of his power therefore you must confess that Christ spake not to the purpose as you object against us Or grant as the truth is that they understood not Christ's meaning and therefore that he answered concerning the manner of their eating not his power of giving his flesh c. 2. We do not find how Christ declares any power in these words You answer He doth it effectually and home by saying my words are spirit A Spirit having strength and vertue to do more then all bodyes put together can either do or conceive Reply A goodly Argument and fit for your children that are content with stones in stead of bread Christ is a Spirit is he therefore able to give his flesh to be eaten then all Spirits have the same power But Sir why cannot a man a body give his flesh to be eaten carnally I see no difficulty in it nor need of any spiritual power to effect it if there be but Popish or other Cannibals that will eat it 2. How can the words of Christ be called a Spirit in your sence for you take not spirit for breath but properly Are words living and intelligent beings as Spirits are But I suppose this quaint Exposition was hammered out of your own brain and though it agrees neither with Fathers nor your elder brethren yet because it opposeth the wicked Calvinists you like it well And indeed so do I both because it shews you to be a most ingenious learned acute and reverend Expositor and also discovers the goodness of your cause that needs such Expositions Objection 2. The second Objection say you The Roman Church committeth idolatry in her adâ—ration at Mass bowing to the Name of Jesus Altars Images and Relicks You answer 1. By the Commandment Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any graven thing nor adore it Exod. 20. is neither forbid the Art of Engraving Carving Printing Painting Casting Sowing Embroydering nor yet all manner of religious honour to be given to creatures Reply 1. The Art of Engraving c. is certainly lawful yet the exercise of it hath its limitations which I conceive may be reduced to these two heads 1. That nothing be engraven c. but what ought to be engraven c. whereby is forbidden the engraving carving painting any lascivious pictures tending to excite lust but especially as to our purpose painting engraving and carving any images of the divine Persons thus Moses tells the Jews Ye heard the voice of the words but saw no similitude only ye heard a voyce Take ye therefore good heed unto your selves for ye saw no maÌ„ner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire lest ye corrupt your selves Deut. 4.14 15 16. and make you a graven image the similitude of any figure the likenesâ— of male and female c. For this reason Eusebius refused to send Constantia the Image of Christ Euseb Eccles l. 7. c. 17. and imputes the Erection of Christs Image to an heathenish Custome saying It is not any marvel at all that they which of the Gentiles were cured by our Saviour made and set up such things for the men of old of an Heathenish custome were wont to honour after this manner such as they counted Saviours Lorichius doth excellently set forth this Ger. Lorich instit Cathol in praecept fol. 95. Est praeterea abusus imaginum c. There is saith he besides an abuse of Images in that we presume to express the sacred Trinity which is truly a most pestilent heresie for what can be more contrary to the Holy Trinity then to paint the Father like a crooked old man the Son in the form of a young man and the Holy Ghost like a flying fowle What can Ideots learn from such a