it doth kinâ—ell nouryshe and encrease in vs a brotherlye loue But the inuocation of dead saintes doth quenche them both Albion Obie 9 I thynke that the Saincts that be alreadye in heauen doo of a brotherlye loue praye for vs. For they are members of the same bodye that we bee of and loue vs and therfore withoute all doubte they doo praye for vs. Are not Hierony contra vâ—gilaÌ„tium I pray you these Hieromes wordes against Vigilantius Dicis in libello tuo quod dum viuimus 〈◊〉 pro nobis orato possimus post quam autem mortui fuerimus nullius sit pro â—ocxaudienda oratio praesertim cum martyres sui sanguinis â—tionem obsecrantes impetrate non quluerunt That is Thou sayest in thy booke that whyles we lyue we may pray one for an other but after we be dead Reue. 6. no prayer that is made for an other shal be hearde speciallye sith that the martyrs praiyng for the vengeaunce of their bloud coulde not obtaine their petition Yf the Apostelleâ— and martyrs canne pray for other when they ought yet to bee carefull for theim selues howe much more doo they praye after theyr crounes Exod. 3â— Act. 7. victories and triumpheâ— Moyses beyng one man dothe obteyne pardon for .vi. hundred thousand harnessed men And Stephen beyng folower of his maister and the first martyr in Christ doth pray for his persecutors Act 27. and after that they begynne to be wyth Christe shall they be of lesse ablenesse Paule the Apostell saithe the lxxvi soules were geuen him in the shyppe And shall he nowe beyng after his resolucion wyth Christe holde his peace and not bee able to open his mouth for theym that in all the whole world did through his preachyng beleue to gospell By these wordes of Hierome we do learne that yf the dead Sainctes whyles they were yet in the earth dydde of a compassion and loue pray for their poore bretherne whome they sawe to be in misery Answer much more they will doo the same beeyng now in perfection and in glorie with they head Phialethes It is easy to say that the dead Saints do of a loue that they beare vnto vs beyng yet in the coÌ„bate make intercession for vs but how can that bee proued by the scriptures and worde of God without the whiche no maner of doctrine ought to be receaued of the faithefull congregation of God If ye argue or reason after this sorte The dead Saintes doo loue vs and therfore they pray for vs for wheÌ„ they were yet in this life they prayed diligently for their bretherne The argument of the pâ—pâ—sts beaten vpon then ovvn heades whome they loued by and by it may be answered that they also did wepe with them that dyd wepe shall we say that they do nowe the same in heauen for christen and brotherly loue dothe not onely pray for the afflicted but it doth also weepe with theim that doo weepe Didymus I am afrayed brother Albion that ye shall be faine to seeke an other argumente for to proue that the dead Saintes doo pray for vs PHIL. Again if they pray how doo they pray I beseche you whether doo they particularly praye make intercession for them of whom they be called vpon Aâ—gu li. de cuâ—a pro mor his agenda prayed to or do they generally praye make intercession for al vs Saint Augustine dothe plainely affirme that the soules of the saintes that be in heauen do not know what the lyuing doo here in earth His wordes are these If the soules of the dead were present in the matters or businesses of the liuing or shuld talke with vs when we se them in our slepe that if I should holde my peace of the other my godly mother wold neuer a night forsake me which folowed me both by sen by land that she myght lyue in my companie For God forfend that she should in the blessedfull lyfe be made more cruell in so muche that when any thyng troubleth my heart she wold comfort me hir son beyng in heauinesse whome she loued entierly whom she would neuer see to be striken in sadnesse But verily the same which the sacred psalme doothe sound or set out is true Psal â— My father and my mother haue forsaken me but the Lorde hath taken me vp If then oure parentes haue forsaken vs howe hee they present in our affaires and carefulnesse or in our eares Nowe if our parentes be not present who of the other dead doo knowe what we doo or what we suffer Osaie the Prophete saieth Esa 63. Thou arte our father Abraham was ignorant of vs and Israell knew vs not If these greate Patriarches were ignorant what was doone vnto the people that descended of them vnto whom beleuyng in God promyse was made that the same people should come of their stocke how are the dead present for to know and helpe the affaires and doinges of the liuyng Howe shall we say that they haue a good turn or are wel prouided for which dyed afore the calamities did come Note which ensued and folowed after their death yf after theyr decesse they haue also a feelynge of those thyngs that doo chance in the calamitie of mans lyfe Or doo we peraduenture through error speake these thyngs iudge them to be quiete whom the troublesom life of the liuing do vnquiete What is it then that god doth for a great benefite promise vnto that godly kyng Iosias that he should die afore lest he shoulde see those calamities plages and miseries whiche be threatned shold come vpon the place vpon the people These are gods wordes Thus saith the Lord god of Israel 2. Kin. 22. 2 Chr 34. The wordes that thou hast heard shall come to passe But because thine heart did melt thou didst humble thy self before god whaÌ„ thou heardest his wordes against this place against the inhabitaÌ„tes therof huÌ„blest thy selfe before me tarest thy clothes and didst wepe before me I haue also heard it saith the Lord. Beholde I wil gather thee to thy fathers and thou shalte be put in thy graue in peace and thyne eyes shall not se al the euil which I wil bring vpoÌ„ this place vpon the inhabitants of the same He beyng frayed with the threatnynges of God had wepte and torne his clothes and therfore he was certifyed that he shoulde be taken awaye by deathe and so reste in peace that he shoulde not see all those euylles Ibi ergo sunt spiritus Defunctorum vbi non vident quaecunque aguntur aut eueniunt in ista vita hominum VVher the spirites of the godly be There therfore are the soules of theim that be departed where they doo not see all those thynges that are done or doo chaunce in the lyfe of men These are saint Augustines wordes who doth plainly denie that the blessed soules of the dead doo entermedle them selues to knowe and healpe the affaires of
the inuocation or calling vpon of the dead saints For why should he els say that the chirsten people did keepe the meâ—ories or remembraÌ„ces of the martyrs that they might be helped by their prayers Philalethâ— â–ª But howe dothe this agree with that whiche he writeth bothe in this place and also in the two and twentieth boke De ciuitate Dei and tenth chapiter He saith plainely in the place before alleaged that they did not set vp altars nor yet offered vp sacrifices vnto the martyres And in the boke De ciuitate Dei which we spake of eueÌ„ now he writeth thus The Gentiles haue builded temples set by altars ordeined priests and offred sacrifices vnto their gods But we do not buyld vp temples vnto our martirs as vnto gods but remembrances as vnto dead men whose spirites soules do lyue with God Neither doo we there set vp aultars in the whiche we shold offer sacrifices vnto martires but we do offer sacrifices vnto the only God of the martirs and ours at the which sacrifice as men of God which haue ouercomed the world with theyr confession they are in theyr place and in their order named And yet they be not called vpon or prayed vnto of the priest that offreth the sacrifice For Praiers are â—â—e sacrifiâ—es of the eleâ—â— aâ—d â—â—osen of god he is the priest of god not theirs Nowe this is most euident plaine the prayers are the sacrifices of the saints I mean of the elect and chosen people of God beyng sanctified in the blood of his son Iesus Christ we mai coÌ„clude then eueÌ„ vpon the wordes of S. Augustin that prayers ought to be offered vnto God only and not vnto the dead sainctes that is that God onely not the dead saintes ought of al the godly to be called vpon Herevnto dothe that belong and pertaine whiche he speaketh also in that place sayenge Sancti vel homines vel angeli id sibi tribuâ— nolunt quod vni deo deberi noâ—unt Holy men or holye aungelles will not haue the same to bee attributed vnto theym which they knowe to be due vnto God onely We maye gather by this that they will none of our prayers nor of our inuocation The proude diuelishe spirites do vsurpe that which doth perteine vnto God onely Therefore as Daniell woulde aske nothyng of any man Danie â— but of God only so all the godly will in their praiers call vpon none other but on the true lyuyng God thorough his sonne Iesus Christ our lord and of him only aske all thynges that they haue neede of Nowe as touching his opinion wherby he doothe thynke and suppose that the soules of the righteous doo pray for vs in heauen for as much as it is only grounded vpon coniectures or gessyng and not vppon the infallible worde of God nor vpon any strong argumentes or reasons taken out of the same we may without any perill of our saluation reiect or refuse it cleauing vnto that whiche we haue alleadged before oute of his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wher he gouÌ„deth himselfe altogether vpon the holy scriptures affirmyng that the blessed soules departed be paste all sollicitude and care for the liuing Albion Nowe sithe that the sayinges of the fathers will not helpe â—h ect 15 eâ— 48 I will come to the plain scriptures These are Iacobs wordes The aungell which hath deliuered me from all euill blesse the children let my name be called vpon them and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac In this autoritye of the scriptures they note two speciall thinges Fyrste how that Iacob dothe confesse that he was deliuered by the aungell and that this aungel doth blesse Secondly how that his name and the name of his fathers shoulde be called vpon those children which is as much as if he should haue sayde They shall call vppon my name and vpon the name of my forefathers â—achâ— 1. Herunto do they adde this place of Zacharye And the aungell of the Lorde aunswered and sayde O Lorde of hostes how loÌ„g wilt thou be vnmercifull to Hierusalem and to the cities of Iuda with whom thou hast ben displeased nowe these three score and ten yeres Hereby doe we plainely learne say they that the aungels doo care for our miseries and praye for vs. They be also kepers guides of meÌ„ yea they be appointed to waite vpon them For thus we rede in Exodus Exod. â—3 Behold saith the lord I send myn angel before thee to kepe thee in thy way to bring thee to the place which I haue prepared And in the psalmes Psal 91. for he shal geue his angels charge ouer thee to kepe thee in all thy ways They shall beare thee in their hands that thou hurt not thy fote against a stone Dani. 10. The angels be also called presidents of realmes because that vnto them whole contreis be coÌ„mitted Phil. First formost as touchyng those thinges that bee generally obiected or brought against vs of the angels Answer how they do blesse pray for vs howe they are presidentes guides kepers bothe of men and of realmes I haue lieffer bryng the answeres of the ancient fathers than myne own reasons LactaÌ„tius in his diuine institutions writeth after this maner Lactanti insti 2. li. ca 17. Neither hath God nede of any name sith that the is alone nor the angels sith they be immortall will suffer themselues to be called goddes whose one and only office and duetye is to bee at the commaundemente and becke of GOD. For we saye that the worlde is gouerned of god as a prouince is by a ruler whose apparitours and officers no man will cal his felowes in the gouernement of the prouince And yet they may do many thinges besydes the commaundemente of the ruler through his ignoraunce whiche is an humayne infirmitye But the ruler gouernour of the whole world who knoweth all thinges and from whose eies nothyng is hidden hath alone with his sonne power ouer all thynges neither is there any thyng in the angelles but a necessitie to obeye Therfore they will haue no honour to be attributed vnto them whose honor is in god But they which are reuolted and fallen awaye from the ministerye and seruice of god do go about to chalenge vnto theym selues the name of god and the worshipping of the gods Saint Augustine Au. lib. 10 de ciuitate dei ca. 12. dothe in all thynges agree with Lactantius What miracles soeuer sayeth this holy father bee so diuinely wrought done eyther by angels or by som other mean that they do coÌ„mend the religion worshipping of the only god in whom only the blessedful lyfe is we must beleue that they are truly done of them or by them whiche do loue vs according to the truth godlinesse God him selfe working in them And when the aungels do heare vs god him selfe doth heare in theym as in his true
the Canonical scriptures Phâ— Answer I do not denye it But no man is able to proue that the Israelites kepte the body or bones of Ioseph for to haue them to be worshipped For no maÌ„ did fal or knele doun before Iosephs tomb no man did bring the cheste that his body or bones were in into the Tabernacle no man did light candels or tapers beefore it But Ioseph woulde by thys meane confirme and establish the faith of his people in the promisses of gâ—d 〈…〉 â—ouching the lande of be heste For so doth Ioseph say to his bretherne I am redy to dye and god will surely visite you and brâ—ng you out of this laÌ„d vnto the land whiche hâ— sware vnto Abraham vnto Isaac vnto Iacob And Ioseph toke an other of the children of Israell saying God will surely visite you and yâ— shal cary my bones hence Paule beynâ— a faithfull expositour of this facte or dede of Ioseph by faith Hebr â—1 saith he Iosephe when he died made mention of the departing of the children of Israel and gaue coâ—â—aundement of hys bones That is because he doubted nothing of the worde and promise of god therfore did he coÌ„maunde his brethern at their goyng out of Egipt to cary out his bones into the land of ChanaaÌ„ So sure was he that the lord would according vnto his promises bring the children of Israell oute of Egipte into the lande that he had promised vnto their forefathers After Moses there were none among the prophets more samoê° ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ of greatter renoune than Samuell and Hâ—lias were Samuel Helias 〈…〉 5 2 Kâ—n 2. Yet we do not reede that any memoriall was appointed or set vp for him For the holye scripture doth plainly speak of his death and buriyng after this maner Samuell died and all Israell dyd gather them selues together and did wepe for him did bury him in his house in â—ama 〈…〉 As for Helias he was taken vp in a syâ—e chariot not into a temple made with handâ—s but into heaueÌ„ partly that in that exâ—mple we myght haue a most infallible testimony of our immortality and of that moste excellente reâ—aâ—de that GOD hathe prepared and layed vp for his faythfull prophetes and partelye that by this meane all occasion of worshipping this holy prophetes body might be taken away Some of the anciente writers are of opinion that the body of the blessed virgin Marye Epiphani was either by the angels caried vp into heauen or els by their ministery buried in such a place as is knowen vnto no maÌ„ vnto this day because that god would not haue that chosen vessel the temple of his holy spirit and the mother of his onely begotten sonne to be made anidole of superstitious and euill disposed persons The holy scripture doth speak thus of Eliseus the prophete Elizeus â— Kin 13. And Elizeus died and they buried him And certaine bandes of the Moabites came in to the lande that yere And as they wer burying a man beholde they sawe the souldiours therfore they did cast the man into the sepulchre of Elizeus and wheÌ„ the man was doune and touched the bones of Elizeus he reuiued or lyued again and stoode vpon his fete And yet we rede not that after this miracle the bones of Elizeus were taken vp and translated or that there was anye pylgrimage appoyncted vnto theym or a churche of S. Elizeus buylded and set vppe We rede in Ecclesiasticus or in the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach that after Elizeus death Eccl. â—8 his body prophecied and that as he did wonders in his lyfe so in deathe were his workes merueylous And that yet for all thys the people repented not nor departed from their sinnes VVhy the dead that â—â—a caste in to â— Elizeus â—â—auâ— taâ—eâ— againe It doth appeare theÌ„ that this miracle was not doone for to teach the people to worship or to geue godly honour vnto the faithful seruantes of god but that therby the auctoritye of Elizeus whose doctrine in hys life thei conteÌ„ned might be confirmed that at this sight they might embrace the same doctrine and turn again vnto the lorde their god with all spede and so escape the destruction that honge ouer their heades for their stubburnesse disobedience and rebellioÌ„ 1. Kin. â—â— Vnder that most holy godly prince Iosias when the bones of the fals prophets were breÌ„t the sepulchre of the maÌ„ of god was not ones touched yet we rede not that there was any pilgrimage vsed to it Obâ—e 12. Dâ— All these examples are only examples of the olde Testament But what exaumples can ye bring out of the neue PHILA Answer Math. 11. Math 14. Act. â— Among them the are borne of womeÌ„ there arose not a greater as oure sauiour Iesus Christ doth testifye him self than Iohn Baptist But the holy euangelist S. Mathew writeth thus of him And when Iohn was beheaded his disciples came and toke vp his body and did bury it Of Stephen the first martir of Christe Luke in the Actes of the Apostelles doth write on this manner And certayne men fearing god caried Stephen among theym to be buried made great lamentation for him Yf the taking vp or translating of the bodies of the dead Saincts had ben profitable vnto the churche of Christe neyther the olde ancient churche that was afore him nor yet the primitiue church that was nexte after him shoulde haue wanted it or bene without such honoring of the faithfull seruantes of god if god would haue them to be honored after the same sorte Therfore lette no man maruell that I will in no wyse alowe the doynges of kinges and princes and of bishops which be contrarye to the scriptures and worde of god and that I do vtterly reiecte the argumentes of Hierome The auctoâ—â— of â—od 〈…〉 as both weake and repugnant vnto goddes holy and sacred booke the warraunt and auctoritye of which ought to be preferred before the autority of aungels much more then before the auctoritie of corruptible and mortall men I would wyshe that leauing the bodies of the dead Saintes in the place appointed of God for theym there to reste in peace and in hope of their glorious rising again we should haue in due reuerence their true reliks whiche are 〈…〉 the exaumple of theyr stedfast fayth and beliefe their godlye lyfe and conuersation and theyr sound doctrine that they haue left behynd them for our instruction and the edifiyng of the true church of god Albion I maruell that ye do so stoutly defend Vigilantius Doth not this holy father and doctour of the holy catholike church I pray you lay to his charge that he did rayse vp againe and reuiue the heresy of the Caines whiche as a Scorpion did venime the whole body of the churche It appeareth by the booke whyche Tertullian dydde write of heresyes Teâ—â— li. haâ—â— where he speaketh of the errours of the Ophites
Daniel and Iob were in the citie as truly as I lyue they shall delyuer neyther sonnes ne daughters but saue theyr owne soules in their rightousnesse As if he should say Thoughe Noah Daniell and Iob were then alyue again and made intercession for the people they shoulde not delyuer theyr owne sonnes and daughters but should saue onely theyr onwe lyues in they righteousnesse my wrathe and indignation is so kyndeled agaynst that stiffe-necked people And so the afore alledged place of Hieremye oughte to bee vnderstanded For the woordes are as muche as if he shoulde say Though Moyses and Samuell wer nowe aliue and stoode before me makynge intercession for this people as they were wonte to dooe yet woulde I not for theyr sake withdrawe my plagues frome this wycked and frowarde generation I woulde not heare theym nor geue eares vnto theyr prayers but woulde in my furye destroye this rebellious and styffenecked people Reade and marke diligentely the circumstaunces of bothe places and ye shall fynde that this is the true sense and meanyng of theim ALBION Obiect 18 Psal 3â— Nowe wille I come to the holye Psalmist These are Dauids woordes I am sure I sayde I wylle confesse my synne vnto the LORDE and so thou forgauest the wyckednesse of my synne Pro hac orabit ad te omnis sanctus in tempore oportuno For this shall euerye Saincte make his prayer vnto thee in a tyme whenne thou mayst bee founde Agayne Psal 150. doothe not he wryte thus Laudate Dominum in sanctis eius Praise god in his saints Philalethes Answer And I say that by bringing in these testimonies or autorities of the psalmes they doo most manifestly beewraye their impudent and shamelesse ignorance Hovv the place aleaged out o the 〈◊〉 pâ—aâ— ought â—o be taken For when Dauid had reasoned of the remission of synnes and had appointed him self an example vnto other and had said I haue confessed my sinne vnto the lorde and thou hast forgeuen the wickednesse of my synne he did adde by and by Many holy and godly men shal be prouoked by this example of mine to call after the same sort vpon god for the pardonne and forgeuenesse of theyr synnes in a tyme when thou mayest bee founde Cypr an coÌ„tra dâ—metrianum For Cyprian writing against Demetrianus did saye very godlye Quando isthinc excessum fuerit nullus iam locus poenitentiae est nullê° satisfactionis effectus Hic vita aut amittitur aut tenetur Hic saluti aeternâ— cultu dei fructu fidei prouidetur That is to say After that we be departed hence there is no place of repentaunce no effecte of satisfaction Here the lyfe is eyther losse or holden here by the worshipping of god the fruite of faith euerlastyng saluation is prouided for Wherby we doo learne that as long as we be in this life wee maye throughe faithe in oure Sauiour Iesu Christ praye vnto God for the remission of oure synnes and that so longe God may be found but after that wee be ones gone neither repentaunce nor yet praying vnto God for the remission of our sinnes can profite vs nothyng Didymus Obiect 19 But here he speaketh of the Saintes that being in heauen do pray vnto God for vs that of his goodnesse he wylle forgeue vs our synnes as he did vnto Dauid I am sure ye will not call them that are yet aliue and be subiect to all kinde of infirmities Saints For that pertaineth only to those blessed spirites and soules that be alredy in glorie with their head our sauior Iesu Christe Philalethes And in this do also the champions of the Romishe churche declare theyr wylfull blyndenesse Answer For in howe many places of the scriptures are the faithfull lyuyng yet here on the earth called Saintes The faithfull lyuing here on the earth are Rom 1. Act 9. Paul doth write to the sainctes that were at Rome These be also Ananias woordes in the Actes of Apostels Lorde I haue heard by many of this man how muche euill he hath done to thy Saints at Hierusalem and here he hath power of the high priestes to bynde all those that cal vpon thy name The tyme would not suffise to reherse all places of the Scriptures where the faithfull lyuing yet here in the earth be called Saints But ye shal heare what Saint Augustine sayth concerning this matter Augu. ii Psal 86. He writing vppon the psalmes doth aleadge these wordes of the Apostell And some of you were such but ye ar washed but ye are sanctified Si ergo eos sanctificatos dicit dicat vnusquisque fidelium Sanctus sum Non est ista superbia elati sed confessio non ingrati Si enim dixeris te saÌ„ctum esse ex te superbus ex Rursus fidelis in Christo membrum Christi si te non dixeris esse sanctum ingratus es That is yf he calleth them sacntified lette euery one of the faythfull saye I am a Sayncte Thys is not the pryde of hym that is pufte vppe but the confession of him that is not ingrate or vnthankefull For yf thou sayest that thou arte a Sayncte of thy selfe thou arte a proude manne Agayne beynge faythfull in CHRISTE The pope vvill scarcely alovve â—his doctrine for he is vvonte to canonize his sainctes an hundred yeres after they bee dead and a member of Chryste yf thou sayest that thou arte not a Sayncte thou arte ingrate and vnthankefull Saye vnto thy God I am a Saincte because thou haste sanctified me because I haue receaued it not because I hadde it because thou hast geuen it not because I haue deserued it For on the other side thou beginnest to doo iniurie vnto thy Lorde IESV CHRIST For yf al Christians and faythful and all they that bee baptized in hym haue putte hym on or are apparailed with him as the Apostell dothe saye As manye as are baptized in CHRISTE are apparayled with CHRISTE Yf they bee made members of his bodye and saye that they are not sainctes they dooe iniurie vnto the heade hym selfe whose membres are not hollye Nowe see where thou arte and take dignitye of thy heade Lette therfore euerye Christiane saye yea let the whole bodye of Christe crye oute whensoeuer it suffereth afflictions dyuers tentations and innumerable sclaunders Preserue my soule for I am a saynt Those wordes of saint Augustine are so plaine that they nede no exposition at al. Eutrapelus Som there be which to shewe a difference betwixt the Sainctes that are alredy in glorie with their head our sauior Iesu Christ and the Saintes that be yet alyue here on the earth doo in the Latine tongue call the one Diuos these are they that be alredy in heauen and the other Sanctos which ar they that be yet compassed aboute with the bodye of synne Albion Well be it so as ye saye But wherfore dothe the Psalmist write on this maner Laudate dominum in sanctis eius that is to
iuuare eos precibus sanis atque interuentu suo apud Deum Non erit inconueniens Scriptum nanque est in Machabeorum libris ita Hic est Hieremias propheta Dei qui semper orat pro populo That is to saye But it shall not bee inconueniente yf it bee sayd that all the Saintes whyche bee departed out of thys lyfe hauynge yet a loue and charitie towardes them that be in the worlde bee carefulle ouer theyr saluation and healpe theym with theyr prayers and intercession vnto God For in the booke of the Machabees it is thus writen This is Hieremie the Prophete of GOD that prayeth alwayes for the people These woordes seeme vnto me very playne Philalethes Answer It is a wonder and meruaile that this old ancient father should go about to confirm and establish the intercession and prayeng of the Saynctes for vs in heauen which is a doctrine no where set foorth vnto vs in all the Canonicall Scriptures by the testimonie and authoritie of an Apocryphicall booke For Origene hymselfe if that bee trewe that Eusebius writeth of hym doothe numbre no more than .xxii. canonicall bookes secludyng the bokes of the Machabees Moreouer Hierome in his preface vnto Damasê° which he did set before the .ii. treatises or homelies of Origene vpon the CaÌ„ticles doth testifie that Origene did write these .ii. treatises vpon the caÌ„ticles whiche Hierome hyâ—selfe dydde turne or translate into latin and .x. bokes which he sayth he dyd not translate because it was a woorke that required muche leysure tyme labour and coste Nowe those that wee haue at this present vnder the name and title of Origene are not called bookes but homelies where as in the meane whyle he wrote none but those .ii. which Hierom did translate But put the case that they be Origenes shall we set more by the authoritie of man than by the authoritie of the Canonical scriptures Lu. 7. Math. 15. Obie 2â— Albion It is written in Luke that the Centurion dyd sende the elders of the people vnto Christ beseching him that he wold come and heale his seruant And why because that he thoughte not hymselfe worthy to come vnto hym Dyd not the the Apostles lykewyse make earneste sute vnto Christ for the woman of Chanance why shoulde wee not likewyse thynking our selues vnworthie by reason our synnes to come vnto God praye vnto the dead Saintes that be already in heauen with their head our sauior Iesu Christe to make intercession for vs Philalethes Answer vvhiles vve liue in this vvorld vve are bound to praye one for another We haue alreadye declared that whiles we yet liue in this worlde we may pray one for an other yea we are bound by goddes worde so for to doo But that we shoulde doo the lyke after we be ones deceassed or departed out of this lyfe and haue fulfiled our course we haue not one onelye iote in al the whole body of the scriptures that testifieth any suche thyng vnto vs Albion Obie 14 Reuel 5 Ye shall not nede to make any repetition of that which hath ben saide alreadie For I doo wel beare in mynd the whole matter Therfore I wil com to the Apocalipse or reuelation of Iohn There wee haue these woordes And when he had taken the boke the fower beastes and the foure and twentie elders fell downe before the lambe hauyng euery one harpes and golden viols full of odours which are the prayers of the Sainctes And in an other place of the same booke he saieth Reue 8. And an other angell came and stoode before the aultar hauyng a golden censer and many odoures were geuen vnto hym that he should offer of the praiers of the Saintes vpon the golden aultar which is before the throne These places doo seeme vnto me to proue manifestly the inuocation of the dead Saintes Phila. Answer Tvvo â—yndes of praiers Ye must vnderstande that there be .ii. kyndes of prayers the one is inuocatioÌ„ or petition and the other is geuyng of thankes laude and prayse This petition yf nede were might be proued by the iiii chapiter of the epistle to the Philippians we cal that inuocation when we desyre some good thing to be geuen vnto vs or some euyll to bee taken awaye from vs. Geuyng of thankes doth contayne the praising and lauding or magnifieng of the name of god for his exceading great benefyts which we receaue dayly and hourely at his handes It is manifeste by that whiche doth immediatly folow that the Apostle doth speake of this laste and not of the first These be the wordes And they sounge a newe song Reuela 5. saieng Thou act worthy to take the boke and to open the seales therof because thou wast killed haste redemed vs to God by thy bloude oute of euerye kynred and tongue and people and nation and haste made vs vnto our God kinges and prestes we shal raigne on the erth Therfore what doth thys make for the intercession of the blessed spirites or soules that the saints do sing praises vnto god in heauen In the other place none other thing is ment Reuela 8 but that the aungell did ioygne his laudes and praises whiche he gaue vnto God with the himnes and songes of the elders Saint Augustine August expoundyng this place writeth thus Alius angelus ipse est Iesus Christus habens thuribulum aureuÌ„ quod est corpus sanctum Ipse enim dominus factus est thuribulum ex quo deus odorem suanitatis accepit propitius factus est mundo quia obtulit seipsum modoreÌ„ suauitatis Et accepit angelus thuribuluÌ„ impleuit illud ex igne altatis Accepit Iesus corpus id est ecclesiam perficieÌ„do patris voluntatem illam igne spiritus impleuit sancti That is to saye The other angell is Iesus Chryst hauyng a golden censer whyche is an holy body For the LORD hym selfe was made a censer oute of the whyche GOD receaued a swete odour and was made mercifull vnto the worlde For he offered hym self a sacrifice of swete smell And the aungell didde take the censer and dydde fyll it wyth the fyre of the aultare IESVS tooke a bodye that is to saye the churche and dydde fyll it wyth the fyre of the holye Ghoste DYDIMVS Obie 25 Râ—ffâ— lâ—â— Eccle. historiae I perceaue brother Albion that ye muste seeke for helpe som other where than in the scriptures of the old and newe testament sith that youre inuocation of the deade Saintes is already driuen out of the Apocalypse or reuelation of Iohn Albi. I haue yet somme what in store These wordes we do reade of Theodosius the emperor in the eleuenth boke of the ecclesiasticall hystorie whiche one Ruffinus dyd write Ciren nibat cum sacerdotibus popâ—lo omnia orationum loca ante martyrum apostolorum thecis â—acebat cilitio prostratus auxilia sibi fida sanctorum intercessione poscebat That is he did with
Galati 1. But what shall they wynne by it Yf an aungell from heauen shoulde preache vnto me any other Gospell than hathe bene preached he shal be vnto me Anathema that is to saye Tertullian de praese iphaereticoruÌ„ accursed Are not these Tertullians wordes We ought to indulge or brynge nothyng of our owne heade neyther to chose that which anye man hath brought in of his owne head or of his owne brayne We haue the Apostelles for our authors which dyd not those of their owne braynes what they should bring in but didde faithfully assigne and delyuer vnto nations that whych they receaued of the Lord. Therfore yf an aungell from heauen shoulde preache any other Gospell vnto vs we would pronounce it to be accursed Are not also these Hieromes wordes Hiero. in Ma ca 23. Quod de scripturis non habet autoritatem eadem facilitate contemnitur qua probatur That is That which hath no auctority out of the scriptures or by the scriptures maye as easely bee contemned as it is proued Ambro. de virginibus lib. 4. Ambrose also writeth on this maner We do by good ryght condemne all newe thinges that Chryste hath not taughte For Christe is the waye vnto the faythefull Yf therfore CHRISTE hath not taught that whyche wee doo teache wee dooe also iudge it execrable â–ª heare also what Origene sayeth Wee haue neede to brynge the Scriptures for a witnesse Orige ho. â— in â—â—e For oure meanynges and exposicions wythoute these witnesses haue no credite These testimonies and autorities of the forefathers do sufficientlye proue that the olde aunciente writers oughte no farther to bee beeleued than they dooe brynge Goddes woorde for theyr warraunte But in all these auctorities that bothe youre angelicall writer and also Ossus dothe brynge what warraunt of Goddes worde haue they DYDIMVS Obi. 36 Augu. 11 â—ctâ— 118. in Ioannem I doo thynke none other but that ye wyll attribute muche to Sainte Augustyne as to hym whom all menne do acknowledged to be one of the chiefe pyllours of the churche But these are his very wordes What is it that all menne doo knowe the sygne of Chryste Whyche sygne yf it bee not made eyther in the foreheades of theym that dooe beeleue or in the water wherewyth wee are regenerated or in the oyle wherwyth wee are annoyncted or in the sacrifice wherwyth they are fedde and nourysshed none of all these things is rightly done What coulde be spoken more playnely than this Eutrapelus Answer In deede this is plainly spoken But where is the scripture or woorde of God that he doothe bryng for his warraunt Heare nowe what he saieth hym self Neither ought we to take the disputations of all men Augu. episto ad fortuna 111. howe catholike soeuer and commendable they be as the Canonicall scriptures as though we may not safe the reuerence that is due vnto suche men improue and refuse any thing of their writynges if we fynd that they haue ment otherwise than the truthe dooth alow beyng by the help of God founde by vs or by other And in an other place I am not moued with the authoritie of this epistle For I do not take the letters of Cyprian as the canonical scriptures but I do try his writings by the canonical scriptures Contra Cresâ—on gâ—â—maâ—◠〈◊〉 2. c 32. And whatsoeuer in them dooth agree with thâ— autoritie of the holy scriptures I doo receaue it with his coÌ„mendation and what so euer doothe not agree with goddes woorde I doo by his good leaue refuse it Manny other places myght I alleadge out of this auncient Father but these with the rest alleadged before shall suffise to proue howe farrefoorthe menne be they neuer so excellente oughte to bee credited Nowe lette vs cope sommewhat nearer with oure ennemyes where in all those places that they bothe doo alleadge is there any iote or syllable of goddes woorde But the Doctoures wyll bee beleued but as farre foorthe as they doo brynge Goddes worde for theyr warraunt therefore in all those authorities that they haue brought I maye choose whether I wyll beleeue theym or not Howe manye thynges haue beene vsed by those forefathers whyche afterwardes haue been abolished In Tertullians tyme Many thinges did the olde mei fathers vse vâ—hich by good right are novv out doune mylke and honye was geuen and offered vnto theym that were baptised Bothe in Cyprians and in saynt Augustine tyme they mynistred the communion vnto younge infantes and babes But yet all these thynges haue beene by good ryghte abolysshed so maye it bee of all other thynges that haue been vsed withoute the woorde of GOD as is theyr consecrated or holye oyle whych which they called Chrisme the signe of the crosse and other lyke thynges that haue no expresse commaundemente in Gods booke Dydimus Obie 37 Howe chaunceth that by the signe of the Crosse as they say the diuels and vncleane spirites haue ben dryuen away if it bee not allowed of God nor yet by his worde EVTRAPELVS Answer It maye be that this as all other myracles was graunted for a tyme for to get more authoritie vnto the doctrine of the gospell and vnto the christian religion emonge the vnbeleuyng Gentiles Chr. 49 in Ma. 24. ca Augu. lib 1. â—etract ca. 23. but nowe yea a greate whyles sens as bothe Chrysostome and Augustine dooth testifye the woorkynge of myracles is ceassed So that nowe we oughte rather to take good heede vnto oure selues leste we be seduced and deceaued by Sathan the dyuell and made to put oure truste where no truste is to bee putte What crossynge I praye you doo the coniurers charmers and sorcerers of oure tyme vse I doo not denye but that the vncleane spirites make sometimes as thoughe they were wounderfullye scarred with theyr crossynge But wherefore is this but for to brynge theyr diuellyshe arte whereof the vncleane spirites theyr selues are authors to greater credite To bee shorte they go aboute by this doctrine to make vs to leane that wherein our whole truste oughte to bee and to put oure truste in thynges of naught Ye know what lyeng tales we haue hearde of theyr coniured water of what vertue power The lvinge â—ales touching coniured vvater and strength it hathe been for to dryue awaye vncleane spirites where soeuer it shoulde bee sprinkeled so that they dydde mooste sacrilegeously attribute vnto theyr beggarlye inuentions the same that oughte onely and solely to be attributed vnto the bloode of our sauyour Iesu Christe beeyng thorough faythe and by the myghtye operation of the holye ghoste sprynkeled in our consciences Exo. 12 For as the bloode of the lambe beeyng stryken on the twoo poastes and vppon the vpper poste of the doore of the Hebrewes houses dydde keepe of the destroyer not beecause that the bloudde of a brute beaste had any suche vertue of it selfe but beecause it was the Lordes Instytution buylded on his woorde and thorough faythe obeyed of the