Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	holy_a	know_v	see_v	6,266	5	3.3816	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A84760	A sober answer to an angry epistle, directed to all the publick teachers in this nation, and prefixed to a book, called (by an antiphrasis) Christs innocency pleaded against the cry of the chief priests. Written in hast by Thomas Speed, once a publick teacher himself, and since revolted from that calling to merchandize, and of late grown a merchant of soules, trading subtilly for the Quakers in Bristoll. Wherein the jesuiticall equivocations and subtle insinuations, whereby he endeavours secretly to infuse the whole venome of Quaking doctrines, into undiscerning readers, are discovered; a catlogue of the true and genuine doctrines of the Quakers is presented, and certaine questions depending between us and them, candidly disputed, / by [brace] Christopher Fowler & Simon Ford, [brace] ministers of the Gospel in Reding,	Fowler, Christopher, 1610?-1678.; Ford, Simon, 1619?-1699.	1656 (1656)	Wing F1694; Thomason E883_1; ESTC R207293	63,879	81

you think fit to conceale not without some ground of suspicion that you were rather willing to pick out what you could best sport your self and your credulous Reader withall then to give a solid answer to his Arguments as they come from his hand with such animadversions as he is sufficiently able to make to the disingenuities of your reply will abundantly vindicate him and the Truth Onely we cannot but acquaint you that you have mistaken the mark very much in the arrowes of bitter words which your discourse levels with too much virulency against that holy man Had you dealt with one of those sorry things in black whose Doctrine and life are scandals to the Gospell and blemishes to their holy Profession you might have promised your selfe an easie beliefe from the Readers of your Book to whatsoever load of reproches you should have laid upon him but the man you deale withall is so well known for Piety Meeknesse Humility Heavenly-mindednesse tendernesse of conscience and all other Ministeriall Qualifications that you may as well perswade them the Snow is black as fasten those reproches upon him with any hope of gaining credit to your self or your book except amongst those who are either totally strangers to him or given up to so potent a prejudice against all that beare the name of Ministers that they can easily admit into their Creed whatsoever evill can be said of them But to more sober Readers and especially those of the parts where he lives you might be easily convinced had you any principles left to bottome a conviction upon that the unjust imputations you every where bespatter him withall will render you suspected in all the rest of your book for the falsehood detected in them And we must tel you withal that we cannot prevail wth our reasons or consciences to perswade themselves that you have that infallible Spirit which you pretend to dictate to you seeing we know you to be so grossly mistaken in the censures you spend upon him and divers of his fellow-labourers Nor can we judge that language inspired by the holy spirit of God when we consider that there is no Gall in that Dove that those holy men of God who wrote as they were moved by the H. Ghost tell us that Saints must put away all clamour and bitternesse and evill speaking Ephes 4. 31. and wrath That the wisdome that is from above is gentle Ja. 3. 17. Ja. 1. 16. and that if any man bridle not his tongue his religion is vain And lastly that if you be not a better Master of Language then Michal the Arch-angel or we deserve worse usage then the Devill himself the light in which the Apostle Jude spake will tell you but that you think him too low a Scholar to instruct you that have gotten through the Schoole wherein he was a Disciple that it ill becomes you to bring against your Antagonists a railing accusation But if that convince not you Iude 9. and your brethren of the incivility and irreligion of your tongues and pens in this way we shall refer you from Michaels Dispute to Enochs Prophesie wherein you will find that hard speeches will beare an Indictment at the last Assise as well as Vers 14. hard blowes And in the mean time we hope God will heare our prayers and free us from the mercy of your Hands who find what cruelty there is in the tender mercies of your Prov. 12. 10. Tongues Mean while in hope that a soft answer will turn away wrath Pro. 15. 1. and that we may set you a fairer Copy to write after when you next put pen to paper we shall endeavour by Gods assistance Pro. 26. 4 5. to answer so much of your papers as concernes us in common with other Ministers without answering your passions And Sir upon our first view of your Pamphlet we cannot Sect. 1. but tell you that if your Title-page were calculated for the Meridian of your Book you mistook your self extreamly For Tituli remedia pixides venena to let passe the Title it self wherein you abuse the glorious name of Christs Innocency to patronize your own guilt we cannot but wonder how Seneca an Heathen comes to be so great in your esteem that you that will not allow us to quote Hierome Augustine Calvin or Luther yet think your Book Epistle p. D. credited by the wrested Testimony of a Pagan Philosopher prefixed thereunto Sect. 2. But to let that passe and proceed to your Epistle which only because you direct it to the whole body of the Ministery we suppose our selves concerned in The rest of your Book because we are assured from your Adversary that he will speedily take it in hand we suppose you will give us leave to be so ingenuous as to leave to his able Pen without interpreting it any wise to proceed from any consciousnesse of our own weaknesse that we meddle not with it And here in the first place we con you many thanks for the charitable advice you begin withall and assure you that the more we think of the day and houre which in your entrance you mind us of and that account we must hereafter therein give to the righteous Judge of Heaven and Earth the more are we excited to the consciencious discharge of that office which however you revile we are sufficiently assured he will own at that day to be held by commission from him and the more are we encouraged against all that evill entertainment which for the discharge thereof we meet withall from men of corrupt minds 2. Tim. 3. 8. reprobate as concerning the Faith And we hope we shall take warning even from an Adversary to walk worthy of our high and holy calling and not wear our Livery to the disgrace of our Master But we are jealous that whatever use we may make of your counsell you intend it to far another purpose to wit rather as a slye way of casting reproach upon us by insinuating that we stand in need of being so advised then out of any intention to do us good by that advice I wish you were in your language is no other then I proclaime your are not Sect. 3. And although you tell us immediatly after that you will not undertake Epistle pag. 2. rashly to judge us or accuse us to the world from which crime of rash judgment you think your self sufficiently secured by comparing our works with our rule the Scriptures and then proceed as you think cum privilegio to misapply Scriptures to slander us yet we must retort upon you that which you give in way of advice to us that the hower is coming when all coverings shall be removed and the vailes pluckt off from Ep. p. 1. all faces and then we doubt not but you will be found not only a rash but a false accuser and that to the world in Print notwithstanding that colour and covering which you hide

teachers fasten upon them within our selves A brief Scheme of which Allegoricall experiences we find in two Quakers discourses related at large by John Toldervy Foot out of the snare p. 5 6 7 8 9 c. out of which that it may be known what the Quakers your brethren would have us witnesse in our selves and then preach we shall draw a short Catechisme as faithfully as according to our understanding we can Q. 1. What is the word P. 5. Answ Life or the substance whence the Scriptures are spoken Q. 2. What are the Scriptures A. A declaration from the word of life Q. 3. What is this substance the word of life A. The measure of God manifested in man the Gift of the holy Spirit manifested in flesh made known in all Q. 4 What is the Garden of Eden P. 1. 1 A. The World Q 5. What are the Trees of this Garden A. All living beings Q. 6. Why so A. Because they have their being of God by somewhat of himselfe that proceedeth out of the earth God the life Q. 7. Where is Paradise A. In man Q. 8. How did man fall A. By hearkning to the weaker Q. 9. What is that weaker A. The fleshly mind Q. 10. Did not the Woman tempt him A. Woman is that silliest and weakest part Q. 11. What was Adam A. The earthly nature in man Q. 12. What is the Redeemer of man A. The light by which he is given to see sin and enabled by it if obeyed to be redeemed from sin Q. 13. Where is this Redeemer A. In every particular man Q 14. Is not that person the Son of God that died at Jerusalem this Redeemer A. No. These and the like are the Doctrines which in the sense of some of your companions we must witnesse the life and power of in our selves i. e. These Allegoricall experiences of the mystery of Scripture as they call it before we preach to others Whether you be of this mind or no we know not But we fear you deale as partially and subtilly in drawing up this Article as you do in many of the rest to hide the grosenesse of your Doctrines from the people What followes in this Article is a consequence fancied by you that would follow if we should herein follow your advice Viz That either constant silence or rare preaching would be found in our Congregations c. And we think so too if we have hit upon your meaning in that advice For we have no warrant to expect immediate revelations at all much lesse constantly and lesse warrant to allegorize Scripture into such odd and wretched conceits and then preach them to the people If your meaning be as you speak and as at first sight we Sect. 35 were willing in charity to suppose we believe your Congregations would should your teachers be tyed up to the same Law be in as deep silence as any of ours We cannot suppose that the Lord or experience speaks to most of you those mad doctrines of which we have given you a tast before and shall give you more anon And we know that there are of you that preach down pride and yet are proud most insolently proud most pharisaically proud if Christ describe pride aright Luke 18. 9. There are that preach down persecution and yet are to their power the most malicious Persecuters of all that are not as themselves divers of you that preach down idlenesse and tell poore Ministers that if they will not worke they must not eat yet themselves walk up and down the Land and like lazy Lurdens or Drones eat the fat and drink the sweet at the charges of their deluded Entertainers till as we have had upon credible information a sad example lately not far from this place they eat their Wives and Families out of doores So that if you preach no more then you witnesse the life and power of in your selves we should heare fewer declamations against the pride and tythes and persecution of the Ministry and then what would your praters do for matter to entertaine their Hearers withall Your twelfth Article sets up plaine enough the revelation Sect. 36 of the Spirit in opposition to all humane studies but especially to those which are used in our Vniversities We for our parts judge they may very well go hand in hand We do not find but that learning and grace together make the best Preachers We do not say that learning alone is sufficient to discover the mind of God but yet we believe that if his mind be to be understood by his words the understanding of his words may be some help to the understanding of his mind And surely some parts of his mind are not to be understood without the help of that Learning which we call humane learning either infused or acquired He that can understand Pauls Epistles without Logick divers parts of Ezekiell and the Revelation without Mathematicks divers peices in Moses and Job without naturall Philosophy Isaiah or the Psalmes without Rhetorick c. we will believe is indeed inspir'd by God But we consider your Generation allow no discovery of the mind of God by Scriptures and therefore it is no wonder if you will not allow any use of learning to draw that thence which you will not believe was ever there But whereas you appeale to the practise of Paul and Peter Sect. 37 as evidence against the usefulnesse of Vniversity-learning in this way We know for one of them Paul he was bred at the feet of Gamaliel and made good use afterwards of the great learning he got there not only in his Epistles which indeed exhibite the marrow of polite learning as well as Divinity but also in his discourses sometimes as in that of his before Agrippa and Festus which provoked Festus to cry out that much Learning made him mad Act. 26. 24. And therefore we suppose we shall find him at least indifferent in this businesse And as for the Apostle Peter we gather this Testimony from him to the usefulnesse of Learning that in the very reading of Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures it may keep a man from 2 Pet. 3. 16 wresting them to destruction which many that want it he tells us too often do We disparage not the revelation of the Spirit we acknowledge Sect. 38 that all the learning of the world will not bring saving truth effectually home to the understanding and consciences of men nay carnall reason back'd with learning will dispute the light of the most glorious Doctrinall Truthes of the Gospel out of mens judgments as is seen daily in the mysteries of the Person natures Incarnation satisfaction righteousnesse merit of Christ without us which first heathen Philosophers Gnosticks and after them the Arians Socinians and Papists and last of all by the weapons borrowed from some or all of them the Familists and their off-spring the Jusuited Quakers or Jesuites and Franciscans under the disguise of Quakers have endeavoured to

dispute rail out of the World and the most glorious practicall Truths of the Gospel out of mens Consciences as appeares daily in those whose learning Satan makes use of to defend and patronize their lusts So that there needs another kind of learning to settle these Truths savingly in the minds and hearts of men which the Scripture calls the revelation and demonstration of the Spirit But yet we must own Learning sanctified by the Spirit of God as a precious help and furtherance to the understanding of the Letter of the Scripture confuting Hereticall wrestings of them and convincing gain-sayers And we wonder whence all these that dispute against Learning from the Scriptures received those Scriptures whence they dispute but from the help of humane Learning Surely those holy men who brought down the Scriptures to our capacities by translating them into our Mother Tongue were not immediatly taught the knowledge of the Originall Tongues by the revelation of the Spirit but learnt it in Schooles and Vniversities and most of the truths of the Gospel which have been preserved to us from the violent hands of Heathen Philosophers and Hereticks have been very much as to means preserved by the disputes of learned men Julian the Apostate knew well enough that Schools of Learning were no small props of Christian Religion and therefore when he had designed a totall abolition of Christianity out of the world he attempted it by two wayes which your Generation unhappily follow him in suppressing Schooles of literature among Christians and taking away Ministers maintenance And whereas you say that the Apostles and Ministers of Sect. 39 Christ in Scripture did not serve an Apprentiship in any Vniversity to learne the Trade of preaching as you scornfully call it we answer they needed it not for they then received that by immediate inspiration which since that time we know no person Quaker or other ever attained in that way they became Linguists and Disputants per saltum which others since are faine to grow unto by degrees If you say the same Spirit dwels in you we say look you to that as to the sanctifying and saving graces of that Spirit for he that hath not the Spirit thus is none of Christs Rom. 8. 9 But as to gifts of Tongues and other parts of learning which were then by that Spirit bestowed in an instant on the first Planters of the Church we want an instance of any of you that can say so much of himself If you know any let us heare from you in the next who it is and if he be able to make it out to us we will believe him You say further that they preached but the Gospel which Sect. 40 Christ by his Spirit revealed in them and you quote two places of Scripture which speak of revelation indeed but not such as is exclusive to humane learning which is your drift Indeed in the first Paul saith that God revealed those things which eye had not seen c. to him by his holy Spirit And in the other 1 Cor. 2 10. Gal. 1. 16. he saith that God revealed his Son in him but it is not proved that in the last of those places the Apostle speaks of the Doctrine much lesse the holy Doctrine of the Gospell that Paul preached as if his humane learning contributed nothing to that but only of those inward operations that Paul experienced and therefore he shewes the effect of the revelation that it took him off from consulting with flesh and blood which we before acknowledge as well as you In the former of them the Apostle speaks of such a revelation of the Gospel as savingly enabled him to receive it feelingly to preach it as appeareth by v. 14. where he opposeth the knowledge of a naturall man which is by meer learning to that of a spirituall man which is by revelation yet not excluding learning For by the way you may observe that he doth not oppose a spirituall man and a learned man Paul himself was spirituall and learned too but a spirituall man and a naturall or unregenerate man who hath nothing but naturall faculties and humane learning to improve them And as to your assertion it selfe that they preached onely Sect. 41 that Gospel which Christ by his spirit rovealed in them if you mean thus that they preached nothing but what was immediatly revealed from the Spirit without any externall help the plaine Scripture will give you the lye For how often did Christ instruct them during his bodily presence among them And how did he expound the Scriptures to them going through all the Bookes then penned even from Moses to Malachi immediatly before his Assention Luke 24. 27. So that whatever may be said of Paul who was called and enabled to his Apostleship in a singular way untrodden by any of the rest we are sure all the rest were taught otherwise then by the immediate revelation of the Spirit only But we doubt yet another Snake in the Grasse of this faire Sect. 42 expression which Christ by his Spirit revealed in them and suspect it beares some analogy with that in your former Article of preaching no more then we witnesse the life and power of in our selves and which you call afterwards witnessing the condition of the Saints whose words we preach of which anon The best sense therefore which comparing your words with each other and all with the language of your other Brethren we can pick out of your expressions here is that you suppose they preached no more then what by spirituall experience the Spirit revealed in their hearts Which if it be that you herein intend we desire you to consider whether the Apostles did experience in themselves the Histories of the old Testament which yet they preached and whether they did experience in themselves the resurrection of the body the generall judgment and eternall damnation which they preached Whether John experienced the Prophesies of the Revelation in himself or no as some of Foot out of the snare p. 6. 13. you cant that the witnesses are slaine in us and must be raised to life in us and Babylon in us c. And of this stamp we doubt is that uncouth and odd expression of witnessing the Saints conditions which is one of the Sect. 43 phrases we told you before that we conceive needs interpretation though possibly you speak what you mean yet we know not what you mean by what you speak especially if we compare those papers which we often receive from your Disciples in these parts with what you here say But we will take you in the best sense and so to witnesse we suppose in your sense is to feele by inward experience the Saints conditions whose words we preach And without this qualification in your judgment we must passe for Ministers of the Letter only We doubt you understand not what a Minister of the Letter meanes We are sure by a Minister of the Letter the

word as written to have been a rule before it was written Although we shall not doubt to prove that those Patriarchs had the same foundation to build on and the same Law or Rule to walk by though they were not then committed to writing The Apostle tells us Gal. 3. 8. that the Scripture preached the Gospel to Abraham where it is observable that Abrahams light was Scripture light before the Scriptures were written 2. The question between us is not whether the Scriptures be the personall or reall ground of faith but whether as Mr. Thomas well distinguisheth it be the Doctrinall or declarative ground or foundation of faith This distinction whether you will admit or no we must premise because we would not be engaged to fight with a meer shadow If you will own the Scriptures to be a doctrinall foundation or ground of faith i. e. to hold forth from God those Doctrines which and which onely we are bound to beleive our dispute is at an end for we are of a mind we owne Christ alone to be the foundation or ground of faith personall or reall that is to be the person or thing that our faith is built on and the Scriptures to be the onely ground and foundation by way of Doctrine or declaration what we are to beleive concerning Christ and how to beleive on him We hope you will understand us we speak as plaine as we can to avoid cavills about termes All therefore that we are to prove in this question is that all things which vve beleive and do as necessary in order to salvation are to be such as are contained in the Scripture and to be judged by it whether they be so or no. We say All things which we beleive and do as necessary in order Sect. 62 to the salvation of our Soules are to be such as are contained in Scripture If not because to please you we must not argue from Scripture we desire you to satisfie us Q. 1. What thing necessary to be beleived or done in order to salvation there is which we may or must receive from any other Rule or build on any other foundation and what is that Rule or foundation We suppose you are bound either to allow our rule or shew us a bettor Or Q. 2. Whether what the Scriptures containe be sufficient to guide us to salvation or no If you affirme it then we shall think our selves well enough with our old Rule seeing vve may be saved and yet admit no other If you deny it you must out-stare these plaine Texts 2 Tim. 3. 15 16 17. From a Child thou hast knowne the holy Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation And all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousnesse That the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished unto every good work And that of John wherewith he closeth his twentieth Chapter These speaking of the signes which Christ did are written that yee might beleive that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that beleiving yee might have life through his name Say not that this concernes onely the Gospel of John or if more onely the Histories of the Evangelists For then we shall make bold to conclude our Position à fortiori If there be enough in one or at most four Bookes to work faith and thereby bring us to salvation much more in all the Scriptures Q. 3. Whether the Scriptures of the old and new Testament be the word of God or no or do you owne no word of God but Christ We suppose here you will answer us as your brethren here do We dare not deny it for feare of the Law we dare not affirm it for then we deny our own principles We know not how you will answer it But we must tell you if you deny it we are sure the Scriptures affirme it of themselves else we desire to know what it is that is called the Word of God in the places following Mar. 7. 13. 2 Cor. 2. 17. 4. 2. What it is that David so often calls by the name of thy word Ps 119. whether Christ spake himselfe or the declarative word of God Lu. 5. 1. If you affirme it We ask further Q. 4. Whether it be not the duty of the Creature to beleive and be guided by the declared word of God rather then by any others word whatsoever Q. 5. Whether there be any such thing in the World as Heresie or Errour If there be not to vvhat purpose are all those Prophesies that foretell and Cautions that forewarne Gods people against them in the Scripture If there be may they be discovered or no If they may not how can it be a duty incumbent upon Saints to avoid them is there any avoiding of an undiscoverable evill If they may by vvhat rule but the written Word Q. 6. Whether there be any duty or sin in the World or no The affinity your Sect hath vvith the Ranters in Principles vvhich G. Fox acknowledgeth makes us beleive that some of you vvould they speak out must answer No but what a man thinkes to be so We vvill not judge the thoughts But if you be more sober vve onely ask you Q. 7. What rule vve have to judge of vvhat is Duty or Sin but the vvritten Law of God Is it the light of every mans private bosome This is the forementioned Ranting Principle Is it immediate Revelation For to this your brethren incline as may be seen in the Quaeries sent to Mr. Baxter of Kiderminster one of vvhich vvas Whether he owned Revelations or no And Naylers Answer to his Quakers Catechisme and that very strongly yea they pretend to the same mission from God to this or that place to do this or that errand which the Prophets had of old and to be limited in their stay in and departure from such places by the immediate commands of God * See Deusberies discovery and his owne confession therein That at Derby he answered the Major that he would stay there till the Lord ordered him to go out of Towne and when he was put out returned and staid till he was free in his spirit to depart p. 8 9. If you be of their mind vve further enquire Q. 8. What certaine token you have to know the commands of God from the commands of Satan seeing he can easily insinuate his suggestions by inward voices as commands of God According to the old Law of God to his people the Jewes Pretenders to a Spirit of Prophesie though they gave evidence of their pretended mission from God by signes and wonders and those coming to passe too yet were to be discovered and judged by the written word Deut. 13. 1 2 3. c. And in the new Testament the Doctrine of an Angell from Heaven is submitted under a curse to the Doctrine preached by the Apostles Gal. 1. 8. And we desire to know

of our bodies meet with no other entertainment then an Who hath required these things at your hands And we desire you particularly to consider what the Apostle Paul tells you that if a man give up his very body to be burned and have not charity 1 Cor. 13. 3. it profits him nothing And surely if your generation be sufferers you are the most uncharitable sufferers that ever were and Martyrs that have been in the World from Christs time till the starting up of your new Apostles within these 3. or 4. years are so far from that charity wch other sufferers in Scripture have had to their bloodiest Persecutors that your mouthes are full of rayling reviling cursing and bitternesse to those that do not meddle with you further then it concernes them in their places to preserve others under their charge from the infection of such abominations as those fore-mentioned However We have not so learned Christ as to render evill for evill but desire to suffer under the sharp Arrowes of your tongues as he gave us an example not reviling againe when we are reviled by you but committing our Cause Callings and Maintenance to him that judgeth uprightly And to instruct even the worst of Opposers in meeknesse trying if God will at any time give them repentance to 2 Tim. 2. 25. 26. the acknowledgment of the Truth and that they may recover them out of the snare of the Devill who are taken captive by him at his will which we yet with pity towards and prayer for you are assured to be the condition of your selfe and your Clients in this Cause ANd now Sir after a tedious pursuit of you through all Sect. 57 the windings and turnings of your subtle insinuating Epistle it may be expected we should proceed to your Book it selfe But we shall wave it as we before told you for these reasons First Because a great part of it hath been once served up in the Epistle and because we found it not seasoned with salt by us already discovered and rejected as unsavoury So that we shall not cloy the Reader with a second course of it Secondly Because that we find that it is wholly made up of personall contests with Mr Thomas and insolent reflexions and reproaches upon him into whose harvest we desire not to thrust in our Sicle besides that we are advertised that he intends to take that task in hand himselfe and we are assured that he will not need any assistance from us or any other to answer it as it deserves Onely because you so often call the Scriptures in scorne our Rule in your Epistle and therein expresly reject all Interpretations and deductions which we draw from them in preaching or dispute we will here subjoyne these two questions Q. 1. Whether the holy Scriptures be the Saints ground and rule of faith and practise Q. 2. Whether it be lawfull without an infallible spirit to interpret Scripture or draw consequences and deductions thence In both these you defend the Negative we the Affirmative As to the first of them in your Book you stand only upon Sect. 58 your defence against some Texts quoted by Mr. Thomas concerning which we leave you to his second charge wherein we doubt not but he will fetch them off without losse Mean while we cannot but take notice of the Artifices of your selfe and others of the generation you close withall 1. We observe that in most or all matters of difference betwixt us you put us upon the proof of our Principles and practises and offer none for your owne which is a slye way of hiding your owne weaknesse and discovering our strength that so you may make your advantages of it Which is as if a man should sue another at Law to produce his evidences by which he holds his Land to be canvassed by his owne Counsell without exhibiting any thing in his owne behalfe to justifie his claime to it 2. We observe also that you reserve to your selves a liberty of excepting against the Jurisdiction of the Court in which the cause is depending not allowing it a power to decide the case if you see you selves likely to be cast in Judgment although you will owne it so far as you suppose it may serve your turne against us For you call us forth to a tryall by the Scriptures and yet will not allow them to be the rule to decide the controversie 3. We observe thirdly that you will have the choice of the Weapons in this encounter not only for your selfe but us also setting up a Star-chamber Court of your own first to damne our Evidences and then forsooth you will fight with us when you have disarmed us You will dispute with us from the Scripture and yet will allow us no Arguments to dispute withall A valiant undertaking and worthy peice of Chivalry for which you deserve to be recorded among the chiefe Champions of the Quaking Knight Errantry But we hope upon second thoughts you may be perswaded Sect. 59 not to disparage your owne atchievements upon us by keeping your selfe within the security of an Irish bogg where it is harder to come at you then conquer you and come forth into the plain field where we may encounter you upon even termes If otherwise we shall take it as an Argument of your Cowardize and yet rather swallow any inconvenience then not dislodge you and set up the Banners of Truth upon your owne ground And first we will try you with a few Quaeries which seeing Sect. 60 they are your owne familiar way of arguing we hope you will admit into your consideration Q. 1. Whether you will receive the Scriptures Testimony concerning it selfe or no If you will then Q. 2. Is it not the rule of faith by your owne confession For it is that to which you submit your saith in this question If you will not then Q. 3. To what purpose do you require of Mr. Thomas to produce a Scripture P. 4. that saith in Terminis it is the rule when if he do the question is as far from being decided as before In the next place we will state the question between us that Sect. 61 we may understand one another First therefore the question betwen us is not Whether the Scriptures or written word have been the ground and rule of faith and practise in all ages of the World but whether in every age of the World since any part of them was written so much as was written in any age were not the rule by which those of that age were to be regulated and consequently whether to the ages that have been and shall be since the whole was compleated the whole be not so and to continue so to the Worlds end So that you are quite besides the Cushion and the Question in the instances of Abel Enoch and Ahraham and all the Patriarchs before Moses who wrote the first Scripture We are not so silly as to affirme the

Baxtet Quakers Catechism Tutors For are they not the very same things which they object against us That we have not an infalliable Spirit to interpret Scriptures and that we differ among our selves in our interpretations and therefore when we appeale to Scripture as the only Judge of Controversies between us they as you do deny it upon this account because we have no infallible Spirit to interpret the Scriptures controverted and thereby give an Authoritative decision of them And what we answer to them we therefore say to you in a word The Scripture we owne as our onely Rule and Judge in matters of faith and we owne no interpretation of Scripture nor desire others to owne any but such as hold proportion with other Scriptures and such interpretations and deductions are so far infallible as they do necessarily agree to them or follow from them But say you further You have some of you been Teachers in Sect. 73 this Nation ten twenty thirty yeares were those things that you have taught so many yeares together necessarily deduced from Scripture What then If not say you then by your owne confession you have taught falsehood But stay Sir every deduction that is not necessarily drawne from Scripture is not falsehood A true conclusion may have but a probable consequence sometimes to infer it from the premisses It s truth is never the lesse for that but its evidence But suppose we should confesse for once that all which we deduce from Scripture is not true We know not what use you will make of it except this that those that do not alwaies speak truth are not to be thought at any time to do so And if so we know whom this inference will hit as well as our selves What think you of the Apostle Peter whom Paul withstood to his face Gal. 2. 11. for countenancing the false brethren in the Doctrine and practise of the Mosaicall Ordinances among the Gentile Churches and compelling the Gentiles to live as the Jewes was he never in the right or not to be beleived to be so because he was then in the wrong Nay doth not God himselfe suppose a possibility of being deceived in the best of his Ministers when he bids hearers prove all things 1 Thes 5. 21. and commends the Beroeans for searching the Scriptures whether the things that Paul and Silas preached were so or no Act. 17. 11. We suppose that no godly Minister will preach that which he knowes to be false But if without his knowledge yea or with his knowledge any one should do so it is the hearers fault if he be deceived thereby because he hath a certain rule whereby to examine what he teacheth and we professe we desire no further to be credited then the Scripture will beare us out in what we say But suppose there be some of us possibly to be found who Sect. 74 will justifie all that they have preached for so long time to be truth necessarily deduced from Scripture What of that Why then say you all that is so taught is infallible True And what then Forsooth then you add why do you not then adjoyn all your Sermons to the Scripture for if necessarily deduced from Scripture they are Scripture and a part of the Saints rule And so you go on it would become so voluminous a Book that many poore Soules Estates would not buy a Bible We shall give you a breif account why we do not if it may do you service And that is because we do not judge our selves so immediatly inspired in our Sermons although we deliver the same truths the holy Pen-men of God were in penning of the Scriptures The sacred Writers of Scripture did not onely write the things they left upon record to the Church by immediate inspiration but the words and phrases in which they expressed them Whereas the best Ministers that since have been have been faine to expresse those truths in notions and tearmes of their owne yea and the Apostles themselves in their popular Sermons And therefore we suppose the H. Ghost thought not fit to record all the popular Sermons which were preached by the Apostles themselves but only appointed them to draw up the summe of the Doctrine they generally taught in expressions of their owne into a forme of sound words of his owne inspiration to be a Standard of Doctrine and expression to succeeding ages And yet supposing the Apostles alwaies preached as they Sect. 75 wrote by immediate inspiration as to matter and forme then we ask you Why they did not bind up all their Sermons with the Canonicall Scriptures seeing all they taught was infallible Whatever you answer hereunto will be applied to our case But we suppose John gives you a sufficient reason in the close of his Gospel There are many other things saith he which Jesus Jo. 21. 25. did which if they should be written every one I suppose that even the World it selfe would not containe the Bookes that should be written So that God therefore thought fit to keep from after Ages part of the History of Christ that the Bible might not be too voluminous And we hope the same reason will serve for us if we do not bind up our necessary and infallible deductions with the Bible In a word this question is proposed with no greater measure Sect. 76 of discretion then if you should ask Whether all the Bushells and Yards and Pints in every mans house or shop in Bristoll be exact measure or no If all say yee then you further enquire Why they do not all bring them into the Market-house or publick place appointed for that purpose and chaine them all to the common Standard seeing they are all alike exact with it Surely to such a wise question the answer will be easie Viz. Because one publick Standard is enough to measure private Measures by and the severall Tradesmen according to their severall imployments having once had their private Measures tryed by that can make profitable use of them at home We shall leave you to make the application to the Question in hand But before we dismisse this captious Argument of yours Sect. 77 you shall give us leave to retort it upon you and then see whether you can give a wiser answer to your owne question in your owne case then we have done in ours We ask therefore Is all that George Fox James Nayler or your selfe teach write and pronounce as from God For from Scripture you will not say you speak seeing that it is not your rule of Doctrine necessarily true or no If not then by your owne confession you have if your owne Argument be good taught falsehood if so then all you and they have taught is infallible for you say it is dictated by the same Spirit that indited the Scriptures and so equall to them your Epistles are as good as St. Pauls is before-said by some of you And then why do you not adjoyne all your Preachments and

Pamphlets to the Bible c. Thus you see the practise of our Saviour Christ notwithstanding Sect. 78 his infallibility which we pretend not to is and ought to be herein our example But we need not defend our practise with so great a name having the examples of so many Apostles and other primitive Teachers to plead for us We pray you tell us otherwise how the Apostles proved by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ Did they or could they bring any one Text in all the old Testament that saith so in terminis That Jesus the Son of Mary berne in Bethlem is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 17. 2. Messiah No but the Text tells us that they opened the Scriptures and laid them one by another in a way of reasoning as the word rendred alledging signifies in the Originall and so convinced the Jewes How will you dispute with a Jew that ownes not the infallibility of the Pen-men of the New Testament and so will question the truth of what is there affirmed that this Jesus is the Christ you have no Weapon to encounter him withall but Argument and deductions from the old Testament For did the old Testament expresly say so any where the question were at an end between us and him We intreat you further to tell us how the Apostle Paul Sect. 79 makes good his assertion concerning the lawfulnesse of his and Barnabasses requiring and receiving maintenance out of the Law 1 Cor. 9. 8. Say I these things as a man i. e. by mine own private judgment or saith not the Law the same also We pray you tell us where the Law saith in so many words that Paul and Barnabas might lawfully forbeare working expect to eat the fruit of the Vineyard they planted c. Sure we are the place quoted by him out of the Law saith no more but this Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the Oxe that treadeth out the Corne v. 9. Here is not a word of Paul and Barnabas except Paul and Barnabas be Oxen would a Quaker reply But though the Text speak expresly of Oxen yet the Apostle finds Paul and Barnabas in the reason and equity of that Law and so makes a strong Argument of it vers 10. And surely it will prove an hard matter to your self or your Sect. 80 Companions to draw forth to any rationall man the Dectrines of election and reprobation out of Gen. 25. 23. Mal. 1 2 3. quoted for the proof thereof by that Apostle Rom. 9. 11 12 13. and the righteousnesse of these decrees out of Exod. 33. 19. and many other Doctrines of affinity with them in that Chapter out of the rest of the old Testament Texts there alledged without consequences We are sure none of them all are in expresse termes in those Scriptures brought to prove them We might add the proofes that the Author to the Hebrews brings for the Godhead of Christ from Psa 45. 6 7. 102. 25. 110. 1. quoted Chap. 1. 8. 9. 10. 13. and the Eternity of Christs Priesthood from the History of Melchizedek and Psa 110. 4. quoted Chap. 7. But we foreseee that the question will still be between us Sect. 81 Whether we be infallible as the Apostles are supposed to have been in our interpretations and deductions For answer whereto we refer you to what was even now said on this point Only here we crave leave to add that we have reason to think our infallibility and yours is much at a rate And yet we find you very frequently taking that liberty which you deny us For how do you conceive the Prophesies of Micha against those that taught for hire and the woes of our Saviour against those that do their workes to be seen of men and stand praying in the Synagogues and love the uppermost roomes at Feasts and greetings in the Markets c. and the commands given to the Apostles of Christ that then were sent by him upon a speciall errand of giving freely what they freely received c. concerne us whose names are not expresly mentioned in those Texts but by deduction or argumentation such as it is Nay how do you bring downe the prohibitions of calling men Masters respecting of persons c. to be obliging to you and your Proselites but by consequence Were it not easie for us were we minded to play the same Childs play with you which you do with us to require of you an expresse place of Scripture forbidding Thomas Speed by name to do thus and thus or at least every Christian or Disciple and yet then you would need a deduction to bring downe the prohibition to your selfe in particular such as this No Christian or Disciple of Christ must call men Masters But T. S. is a Christian We wish he were Therefore T. S. must not call men Masters Nay to go yet further with you we might very well require Sect. 82 of you an expresse Scripture for your two fundamentall Articles That Christ is the light that enlightens every one that comes into the World and that Christ is the word of God and not to the Scriptures A good friend of yours in a discourse T. C. with one of us having before denied all consequences and deductions from Scripture as you do was pittifully gravelled when he was required to produce expresse Scriptures to prove these propositions and was told that the Texts he produced which were Jo. 8. 12. I am the light of the World and Jo. 1. 9. That was the true light which enlightneth every one that comes into the World had not the name of Christ in them but it was to be concluded by Argument that those words are spoken of Christ and that the place Jo. 1. 1. did not expresly affirme that Christ is the word but is onely inferred thence by deductions And as for meanings and interpretations it was none of the best which the same party gave of that Scripture which forbids the Disciples to carry shooes as well as a Purse or Scrip whence he was told that it as much concerned G. Fox to go without shooes as us without Purse or Scrip Viz. That the Text forbids to carry shooes but not to weare them A learned interpretation and such as becomes your infallibility And your selfe however unlawfull you judge it in us to interpret Scripture yet Sect. 83 more then once undertake it very Dictator-like as p. 8. where you interpret the word Rule Gal. 6. 16. for the rule of the new Creature not the Scriptures as if the Scripture and the rule of the new Creature were opposites and so p. 19. where you interpret the Record spoken of 1. Jo. 5. 10. to be eternall life not the Scriptures and againe p. 20. you interpret the foundation spoken of Eph. 2. 20. to be that same Jesus who was preached by the Prophets and Apostles So hard a matter it is for men that undertake to give Law to others not to transgresse it themselves and not