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A07698 A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond; Dyaloge of dyvers maters More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. 1529 (1529) STC 18084; ESTC S104969 282,100 256

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not bounden as ye resemble it lyke the dāned spyrytys to the olde Idolys of the panyms ¶ It likid him also to chese the arche that was caryed wyth hys people at which arche specially by miracle he diuers tymes declared hys especyall assystence the arche beyng traunslatyd fro place to place was it not also his pleasure to be specyally present in hys temple of Ierusalē tyll he suffred it to be distroyed for theyr synne And in stede of that oone place of prayer to which he wold byfore that all hys people shuld come he hath vouchsaffyd to sprede hym self abrode in to many tēples and ī more acceptable wyse to be worshypped in many templys thorow oute hys cristyn flokke ¶ Here sayde your fr●nd that the temple of cryste is as saynt poule sayeth mānis harte and that god is not included nor shytte in any place And so hī selfe sayd to the woman of Samarie that very worshyppers shulde worshyp in spyryte and in truthe not ī the hyll or in hyerusal●m or any other temple of stone ¶ whervnto I shewed hī that I wold well agre that no t●mple of stone was vnto god so plesaunt as the temple of mannys harte But yet that nothyng letteth or wythstandyth but that god wyll that hys crystē people haue ī sundry placys sundry tēples and chyrchis to whych they shulde besyde theyr pryuat prayours assemble solemply and resorte in company to worshyp him to gether such as dwell so nere to gether that they may conueniently resorte to one place ¶ For albe it oure sauyour sayed quod I vnto the woman of whom ye spake that the tyme shulde come ī which they shulde neyther worshyp god ī that hill of Gezara not in hyerusalem neyther whych places were after dystroied and desolate and the Pagane manere of worshyppīg of the tone the Iues maner of worshippīg in the tother turnyd both in to the maner of worshypīg of cristē Fayth and religyon yet said he not to her that they shulde neuer after worship god ī none other temple But he said that the time shuld come and thā was comen all redy whan the very trewe worshyppers shulde worshyp god in spyryt and truth And that as god is a spyrytuall substaunce so lokyd he for worshypers that shuld ī such wyse worshyp hym In whych wordys our sauyour reprouyd all false worship as was vsyd after paganysme ī that hyll in Samaria and all suche worshyp as was done ī any place wyth opyniō that god myght not be worshyppyd els where Those that so byleue they be such as bynde god to a place whych oure Lorde reprouyth shewyng that god may in hart truly and spyrytually be worshipid euery where But this excludyth not that besidis that he wil be worshyppyd in hys holy temple no more thā whan he gaue coūcell that for auoydyng of vaynglorye a man shall not stand and praye in the strete to gather worldely prayse but rather secretly pray in hys chamber Thys counsell forbadde not the Iewes to whom he gaue it that they shuld neuer after cum in to the temple and pray ¶ And suerly albeit that sū good mā here and there one among .x. thousād as saynt Poule and seynt Antony a fewe such other lyke do lyue all heuenly far out of all fleshly cumpany as far from all occasyō of worldly wrechednes as from the comen temple or parysh chyrch yet if chyrches cōgregacyōs of crystyn peple resortīg to gether to goddꝭ seruyce were onis aboleshed and put away we were lyke to haue few good tēples of god ī mēnys soules but all wolde wythin a whyle weare away clene and clerely fall to nought And thys preue we by exper●ence that those which be the best tēples of god in their soules they most vse to cum to the temple of stone And those that lest cum there be well knowen for very rebaudys and vnthryftys and opēly perseyuyd for temples of the deuyll And thys not in our dayes only but so hath been from Crystys dayes hether I trowe no man doutyth but that Crystys appostyls were holy tēples of god in theyr soules And well vnderstode the wordis of theyr master spokyn to the woman of Samary as the thyng whych they re mayster after told them hym selfe or elles how colde sum of them haue wrytyn that cōmunycacyon whyche none of them hard as apperyth by the gospell But they not in theyr maysters days ōly but also after his resurrexyō and after that they had reseyuyd the holy gost and were by hī instructyd of euery truth longyng to the necessyte of theyr saluacyō were not content only to pray secretly by them self in theyer chambers but also resortyd to the tēple to make they re prayers And ī y● place as a place plesāt to god dyd they pray in spyryte and in truth As well apperyth in the boke of saynt Luke wryttyn of the Actys of Crystes holy Apostellys So that no doute ys there but that yet vnto thys day and so forth to the worldys ende it is and shal be plesaūte vnto god that hys chosen people pray to hym and call vppō hym in temple and chyrch whereof hī selfe wytnessyth wyth the Prophete Domus mea domus orationis vocabitur My house shal be called ā house of prayer ¶ Now makith your reason as I sayed no more agaynst pylgrymagꝭ than agaynst euery chirch For as god is not bounden to the place nor oure confydence bounden to the place but vnto god though we rekē our prayour more plesaunt to god in the chyrch thā wythout by cause hys hygh goodnes accepteth it so in lyke wyse do not we reken our lorde bounden to the place or image where the pylgrymage is though we worshyp god ther bycause hym self lykyth so to haue it ¶ The .iiii. chapiter ¶ Th● author declareth in the cōprobacyon of pylgrymagys that yt ys the pleasure of god to be specyally soughte worshypped in some one place byfore a nother And albe that we can not attayne to the knowledge of the cause why god doth so yet the author proueth by greatte authoryte that god by myracle testyfyeth yt ys so wyth thys your frēd asked me what reson were there y● god wold sette more by one place than by a nother or how know we that he so doth namely yf the t●ne be a chyrch as well as the tother ¶ whereunto I answered that why god wold do yt I coulde make hym no answere no more thā saynte austen sayeth that he coud I was neuer so nere of his coūsell nor dare not be so bold to ask hym but that he so doth in dede that I ā sure Inoughe yet not for that he settyth more by that place for the soyle and pauement of the place but that hys pleasure in some place is to shewe more hys assystence and to be more specyally sought vnto than in sum other ¶ Thā he as●ed me wherby was I so sure of
cleue therto as though ye were sure by your confidence in god that his grace had inclined your assēt to the surer syde But sith he hath shewyd yow playnely by reasone that he hathe geuyn hys chyrch in all such thyngꝭ knowlege of the trouthe ye wyll take the sure way and put your self out of all perplexitie yf in the poynte yt self the scryptures that touch it ye take for the truth that way that the chyrch tecythe you therī how so euer the mater seme bysyde vnto your selfe or to eny man els The .xxix. chapyter ¶ The author proueth by scrypture that god instructethe the chyrche of Chryste in euery trouthe necessaryly requesyte for our saluacyon TRuly q he ye wynde yt well aboute But yet ye made as though ye wolde haue shewed that god had in scrypture told me that he had euer wold tell hys chyrch the trouthe in all suche maters And now ye brynge yt to the poynte not y● holy scrypture tellythe me the tale but mānys reasō And suerly as I shewed you byfore I dare not well truste reasone in maters of fayth of holy scrypture ¶ I bygane quod I to proue yt you by scrypture and ye than put me out in the bygynnyng How be yt thys reason hath scrypture for hys foundacyon and grounde And thogh yt sum what bilde farther theron yet is it not reason alway to be mystrusted where fayth standyth not agaynst it nor god sayeth not the contrary Excepte reasō be so farr out of credēce with you that ye wyll not nowe byleue hym yf he tell you that twyse twayne make foure I wene ye wyll fare by reson as one dyd ōs by a ●alse shrew he sware that he wold not for xx.li heere hym say hys crede For he knew him for such a lyer that he thoght he shuld neuer bileue hys crede after yf he hard yt onys of his mouth How be yt quod I lett vs yet see whyther god hym self in scrypture tell you the same tale or no. God tellyth you in scrypture that he wold be wyth his chirch to the ende of the worlde I thynke ye dowte not therof but those wordys he spake to the hole chyrch that than was and that euer shal be from thappostels dayes cōtinued tyll the ende of the world ¶ That ī good fayth quod he must nedys be so Thā were thys ī good fayth ynough quod I for oure purpose syth no mā dowte●h wherfore he wyll be with his chyrch excepte we shulde thynke that he wolde be therwythe for nothynge wherefore shulde he be wyth yt but to kepe yt preserue yt wyth thassystence of hys gracyous presēte from spyrytuall myschiefe specially and of all other specyally from infidelytie and from idolatrye whych was the specyall thīg from whych he called hys chirch owt of the gentyllys whych els as for morall ver●ews polytycall yf they had nott lackyd the ryght cause and ende of referrynge they re actys to god were many of them not far vnder many of vs. Let vs go ferther Doth he not ī the .xiiii xv and .xvi. chapyter of saynte Iohn̄ agayn and agayne repete that after his goyng he wyll cum agayne to theym And sayth he wyll not leue them orphanys as fatherles chyldern but wyll cū to them agayn hym selfe Let vs adde now therunto the wordys bifore rehersed that he wylbe wyth theym tyll th● worldes ende and yt aperyth playne that he mente all thys by hys hole chyrche that shulde be to the worldes end ¶ whā he sayd vnto thē I call you frendꝭ for all that I haue harde of my father I haue made knowene to you he spake as to hys perpetuall chyrch and not to thapposteles alone but if he sayed to them alone these wordys also I cōmaunde that ye loue eche other so that none shuld loue eche othere after but onely they Now leste the thyngys that he taught theym shulde by the chyrch after be forgoten whych was more to be dowted than of theym self that hard it he sayd vnto theym also These thyngys quod he haue I spoken to you abidinge here wyth you But the ●omforter whych is the holy goste whō me father shall send ī my name he shall tech you all thyng and he shall put you in mynde and rememberaunce of all thyng that I shall haue sayd vnto you So that here ye se that he shall agayn alway tech the chirch of new the olde lessons of Chryst. And he sayed also to theym that thys comforter thys holy gost y● spyryte of trouth shulde be sente to abide wyth them for euer whych can not be mente but of the hole chyrche For the holy gooste was not sente hyther into the erthe here to dwell wythe the appostels for euer for they dwelled not so long here Now yf the spryte of trouthe shall dwell in the chyrche for euer how cā the chyrche erre in perceyuynge of the trouthe in such thyngys I mene as god wyll bynd thē to know or shal be necessary for theym to know For onely of such thīgꝭ mēt oure lord whan he sayed that the holy goste shall teche theym all thynge For as saynte Poule sayeth the manife●●acyon and shewynge of the spyryte ys to the vtilitie profyt This holy spyrite also was not promysed by our sauiour chryst that he shulde onely tell hys chyrch agayne hys wordes but he sayd ferther I haue quod he besydes all thys many thynges to say to you but ye be not able to bere theym now But whā he shall cum that is the spyryte of trouth he shall lede you in to all trouthe Lo our lord sayed not that the holy goost shuld write vnto his chyrch all trouth but that he shuld lede theym by secrete insperacyon and inclynacyon of theyr hartes in to all trouth in whyche must nedes be conceyued bothe informacyō and ryghte byleue of euery necessary artycle and of the ryght and trew sēse of holy scrypture as farre as shall be requysyte to conserue the chyrche from eny dampnable errour ¶ Now whan the holy goost shall by goddes ꝓmyse be for thys purpose abydynge in the chyrch for euer and Chryste hym selfe hath also sayd that he wyl not leue hys chyrch as orphanys but wyll cum hym selfe be wyth yt vnto the ende of the world and sayeth also that hys father ys in hym and he in hys father and that hys father and he be bothe one thynge not bothe one persone but bothe one substaunce and wyth the holy gooste bothe one god than must yt nedes folow that to the worldys ende there ys wyth the chyrch resydent the hole trynytye whose assystence beynge to the chyrche perpetuall how can yt at any tyme fall from trew fayth to false errous and heresyes The .xxx. chapyter ¶ where as the messēger had thought byfore that yt were herde to bylyue any thyng certeynly saue holy scrypture though the chyrche dyd agre therin and commaunde yt the Authore sheweth
euer or tyll he be waxē wyser ¶ By our lady quod youre frende thys way myslyketh not me But who sholde set the pryce of the boke ¶ For sothe quod I that reken I a thynge of lytell force For neyther were yt a grete mater for any man in maner to geue a grote or twayne aboue the meane pryce for a boke of so great profyte nor for y● bysshop to gyue them all fre wherin he myght serue hys dyo●yse wyth the coste of .x. li. I thynke or xx markys Whyche some I dare saye ●here is no bysshop but he wold be glad to bestowe about a thynge that myght do hys hole dyocyse so specyall a pleasure wyth suche a spyrytuall profyte ¶ By my ●routh quod he yet wene I that the people wolde grudge to haue yt on thys wyse delyuered theym at the bysshops hand and had leuer paye for yt to the pr●nter thā haue yt of y● bysshop fre ¶ It myght so happē wyth some q I. But ye● in myne opiniō there were in that maner more wylfulnesse than wysedom or eny good mynd in such as wold not be content so to receyue them And therfore I wolde thynke in good fayth that yt wold so fortune ī fewe But for god the more dowte wolde be leste the● wolde grudge and holde them self sore greued that wolde requyre yt and were happely denyed yt Whych I suppose wolde not often happen vnto e●y honest howseholder to be by hys dys●●●●●yo● reuerently red in hys howse But though yt w●re not takē to ●●ery lewd ladde in hys own handꝭ to ●ede a lytel ●●d●ly whan he ly●● and th●● 〈◊〉 th● boke at hys helys or among other such as hym selfe to kepe ● quo●libet a pot parlement vppon I tr●we there wyll no wyse man fynde a fawte therin ●e ●●ake ryghte now● of the Iewes among whome the hole people haue ye say the scrypture in theyr handys And ye thought yt no reason that we shold reken crysten men les●e worthy therto than theym Wherin I am as ye se of your owne opynyō But yet wold god we had the lyke reuerēce to the scrypture of god that they haue For I assure you I haue herd very worsshypful folk say which haue bē in theyr houses that a mā coud not hyre a Iewe to syt down vpō hys byble of the olde testament but he taketh yt wyth grete reuerēce in hand whan he wyll rede reuerētly layeth yt vp agayn whan he hath done wher as we god forgyue vs take lytell regard to syt downe on our byble wyth the old testament the new to Whych homely handlyng as yt procedeth of lytell reuerence so doth yt more more engender in the mynde a neclygence contempt of goddys holy wordys We fynde also that amonge the iewes though all they re hole byble was wrytten in theyr vulgare tonge and those bokys therof wherin theyr lawes were wryten were vsual in euery mānys handꝭ as thyngs that god wold hau● comenly knowē repeted and kept in remembraūce yet were there agayn certayn partys therof whych the comen people of the Iewes of olde tyme bothe of ●●uerenc● and for the dyffycultye dyd forbere to medle wyth But now sy●h● the ●●yle of the temple ys broken asunder that dyuyded among the iewes the p●ople from the syght of the secretys that god had sente hys holy spyryte to be a●●ystent with hys hole chyrch to terhe all necessary tro●the though yt maye therfore be the b●tter suffered that no p●rte of holy scrypture were kept owte of honest lay mēnys hands yet wolde I y● no ꝑte therof shold come in theyr whych to theyr owne harme happely theyr neyghbours to wold handle yt ouer homely and be to bold besy therwyth And also though holy scrypture be as ye sayd whyle ere a medycyn for hym that ys syk fode for hym that is hole yet syth there is many a body sore soule sykke that taketh hym selfe for hole in holy scrypture ys an hole feste of so myche dyuers vyaunde that after the affeccyon state of sundry stomakys one may take harme by the self same that shall do a nother good and syk folke often haue suche a corrupte tallage in theyr taste that they moste lyke that mete that ys most vnholsome for theym yt were not therfore as me thynketh vnreasonable that the ordynary whome godhath in the dyocyse appoynted for the chyef physycyō to dyscerne bytwene the hole and the syk and bytwene dysease and dysease shold after hys wysdom and dyscrecyon appoynte euery body theyr parte as he shold perceyue to be good holsom for theym And therfore as he shold not fayle to fynde many a man to whome he myght cōmyt all the hole so to say the trouthe I can se none harme therin though he shold cōmyt vnto some mā the gospell of Mathew Mark or Luke whom he shold yet forbede the gospell of saynt Iohn̄ and suffre some to rede the actys of the apostles whom he wolde not suffer to medle wyth the Apocalyps Many were there I thynke that shold take mych profyte by saynt Powlys epystle ad Ephesios wherin he gyueth good coūsayle to euery kynde of people and y●t shold fynd lytell frute for theyr vnderstandyng in hys epystle ad Rom●nos conteynyng such hygh dyffycultyes as very fewe lerned men can very well attayne And in lyke wyse wolde yt be in dyuers other partys of the byble as well in the olde testament as the new so that as I saye though the bysshoppe myght vnto som lay man by take conmytte wyth good aduyse instrucciō the hole byble to rede yet myght he to som mā well wyth reasō restrayn the redyng of som parte and from som bysye body the m●dlynge wyth eny parte at all more th●n he shall here in sermons set out and declared vnto hym and in lyke wyse to take the byble awaye frō suche fo●●● agayne as be proued by theyr blynde presumpcyon to abuse the occasyon of theyr profete vnto they re own hurt and harme And thus maye the bysshop order the scrypture in oure handys wyth as good reason as the father doth by hys dyscrecyon appoyne which of hys chyldern may for his sad kepe a knyfe to cut hys mete whyche for hys wantonnes haue hys knyfe taken from hym for cuttynge of hys fyngers And thus am I bold wythout preiudyce of other mennys iudgement to shew you my mynd in this mater how the scrypture myght without grete parell and not wythout grete profyte be brought in to oure tonge and taken to lay men and women both not yet menyng therby but that the hole byble myght for my mynde be suffred to be spred abrode in ēglysh But yf that were so mych dowted that parcase all myght therby be letted thē wold I rather haue vsed suche moderacyon as I speke of or som suche other as wyser men can better deuyse How be yt vppon that I red