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A72527 The relection of a conference touching the reall presence. Or a bachelours censure of a masters apologie for Doctour Featlie. bachelours censure of a masters apologie for Doctour Featlie. / By L.I. B. of Art, of Oxford. Lechmere, John.; Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640? Conference mentioned by Doctour Featly in the end of his Sacrilege. 1635 (1635) STC 15351.3; ESTC S108377 255,450 637

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meanes that which is consecrated the Sacrament manibus Sacerdotum tractari frangi fidelium dentibus atteri who doth not perceaue how the later brings with it an explication whereby it is made intelligible which the former doth not He who saies the Sacrament is handled broken touche with the teeth is easilie vnderstood but when you saye the bodie is handled broken touched the speach is obscure and needs an explication Yet with an explication he that beleeues the reall presence will perceaue the meaning of it of your proposition for of that I speake now to be that according to the forme of bread wherein the bodie is it is said to be touched handled broken though not according to it 's owne proper forme and with this explication he will beleeue it Those who denie God to be Incarnate will neuer beleeue that he could be seene with mens eies that he could be nailed vpon a crosse He that is infinite might he saie they haue a figure he that is impassible suffer he that is immortall could he die yes he could Being in the forme of God he esteemed it no robberie himself to be equall to God but he made himself of no reputation taking on him the forme of a seruant made into the likenes of men and found in the fashion of a man he humbled himself and became obedient vnto death euen the death of the crosse Phillippens 2. He was God and in the forme of man as he was God according to his diuinitie he could not suffer he was infinite immutable immortall impassible as man according to his humanitie he had a visible shape a figure in which he was seene and touched and suffered and died No man euer saw God Ioan. 1. yet He was seene vpon the earth and conuersed amongst men Baruc. 3. God is a Spirit Ioan. 4. and a spirit cannot be touched or felt with hands it hath not flesh and bone Luk. 24. but yet feele and see c. Ibidem reach hither thy hand my Lord and my God Ioan. 20. The Word was with God and the Word was God the same was in the beginning with God all things were made by him Ioan. 1. true and the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst vs. Ibidē That which was from the beginning which wee haue heard which wee haue seene with our eies which wee haue looked vpon and our hands haue handled of the word of life and the life was manifested and wee haue seene it and beare witnes and shew vnto you that eternall life which was with the Father and appeared vnto vs that which wee haue seene and ●eard c. 1. Ioan. 1 Heare you this Master Wa●erer life eternall life that which was with the Father that life appeared vnto vs wee saw it with our eies wee toucht it with our hands Touched life touched the intellectuall Word touched God a Spirit with bāds What would you haue more light to see how this might come to passe behold The life was the light of mē It was the true light which doth illuminate euerie man that cōmeth into the world This light is neere it is neere you you are a man Ioan. 1. The word was made flesh Now you see it that Word that life that Spirit God was in the forme of man and according to that forme he was touched with hands You beleeue it and see withall how sacred mysteries when they be deliuered in some termes be more easilie conceaued then in others When I saie Christ was touched with hands torne with whips nailed vpon the Crosse you conceaue me without a commētarie but when I saie God was torne with whips or nailed vnto the Crosse you expecte an explication least the the hearers mistake the meaning as those Hereticks did that thought the Diuinitie suffered So when wee saie the Sacrament is touched with hands or teeth panis consecratus or sacramentum manibus tractatur frangitur I shall be easilie vnderstood But if one saie as Featlie puts it Corpus Domini nostri manibus Sacerdotum tractatur frangitur there will be expected an an explication least the hearers mistake and think that our Sauiours bodie according to it 's owne dimensions and forme is vsed so As for those wordes in rei veri●ate whether you take them to signifie that the bodie is trulie touched according to that Sacramentall forme wherein it is or that this touching of the bodie is distinct from touching of it in a meere signe or Sacrament it will come in the end all to one For being reallie in the forme which is touched it is trulie said to be touched otherwise then it could be by the touch of an emptie signe and a further determination of it was not necessarie It is not such as that of the Iewes or of the woman touching him one of those was by the garment the other was secundum inhaerentem formam this forme heere which immediatlie receaues the touch and communicates the denominatiō to the bodie as in it is more vnited then the one of those and therefore more apt to communicate the denomination howeuer it be said lesse vnited then the other Whether the denomination be in regard of the bodie for the species there is no difficultie proper or improper or lesse proper the Confession doth not specifie Should I talke of Analogie Mortons rigour would haue wine broken properlie though he were not well aware it ensued vpon his pretence you would not vnderstand me and if I speake of Aequiuocum à consilio you will take occasion to make inuectiues against mentall reseruation for you are curious to paint dolphins in a wood wherefore I will onlie repeate what hath beene said allreadie the bodie is so approximated to the hand and mouth by a reall presence in the forme of bread that it cannot be trulie said to be touched Sacramento solùm Neither is this manner of speach found heere onlie in this Confession whereunto Berengarius did subscribe Others before had it and they were such as vnderstood better then you the power of words and in what sort in mysteries of this nature they might be verified Sapientum est rebus imponere nomina and to those who are skilfull in reuealed Theologie it appertaines to name formalities where they find names wanting to things appertaining to this obiect or to apply words before inuented Stephan Episc Eduensis suprà pag. 3 1. to signifie more thē those inuentors thought on so making them Analogicall or Equiuocall as they see cause Tertullian Zelus perorabit ingemens C●ristianum c. eas manus admouere Corpori Domini quae Daemonijs corpora conferunt He speakes of those who made Idols Proh scelus semel Iudaei Christo manus intulerunt isti quotidie corpus eius lacessunt ô manus praecidendae a. Tertull i● de Idol c. 7 Zeale will plead lamenting and greeuing that a Christian touches the bodie of our Lord with those hands that made bodies for deuils b. Ibidē
and Chamier lib. 10. cap. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 intelligimus vt sit positum est pro significat In which way the wordes are thus to be interpreted Hoc this thing est doth signifie corpus meum my bodie A construction so absurd that the very Authors are ashamed of it and therefore couer it vnder metaphors clowdes of obscure speaches that it appeare not to the Reader D. Mortons pretence for it is this that the subiect is proper bread which bread saith he doth signifie but is not the bodie That it is bread he perswades himself because our Sauiour tooke bread and the Fathers sometimes call it bread Which is no good Argument for the Greg. Nyss orat catec c. 37. Ser. de Coen apud Cypr. Gaudent in exod tr 2 Cyril Hier. Catech. 4. Cyrill Alex Epist ad Calos Aug. Serm 28. de verb Dom. lib. 2. con aduers leg c. 9. Hier. Epist ad Hedib q. 2 Ambros Myst init c. 9. Chrysost Hom. 83 in Mat. 24. in Pri. ad Cor. Fathers when they speak of that which is heere after consecration expounde themselues as you will see hereafter for Doctor Featlie doth obiect the same of bread which is changed by the power of Omnipotēcie not in shape but in nature of supersubstantiall heauenlie not proper bread in which sence our Sauiour calls his flesh meate and himself bread Ioh. 6. Whereupon whē they take the word properlie they saie that it is not bread not that which nature made no sensible thing but the flesh of Christ the bodie which was crucified the mediatour the Lord of all Neither doth it follow that it is bread properly because he tooke such bread into his hands for he chāged it by his omnipotence Panis omnipotentia Verbi factus est caro Oblata conuertons in Veritatem propriae carnis In illud quod est immortale transelementata corum quae apparent natura into flesh as they likewise teach vs. and our Sauiours words according to their natiue proper sence do D. Morton Instit of the Sacram. lib. 2. cap. 1. pag. 72. confessedlie import as much for they signifie that his bodie is now in that exteriour forme wherein before there was bread Which doth inuolue a change In a corporall feast suppose a Prince makes it that which was bought aliue is serued in before the guests And consequentlie it is not rigorouslie speaking the same thing though it be vulgarlie esteemed the same Homo mortuus quanquam figurae formam habet eandem tamen homo non est saies the Philosopher lib. 1. de Part Anim. c. 1. And elswhere he tels vs Homo mortuus dicitur aequiuocé Liuing and dead things haue not the same forme and therefore if you beleeue him be not the same things Vide eundem lib. 1. de Gener. t 23. not aliue In this spirituall feast exhibited by the Prince of heauen that which was brought into the Church not aliue is he is the Creators Sonne and himself omnipotent that makes it presented to the communicants his guests aliue Influit oblatis vim vitae S. Cyril Alex. Epist ad Calos cōuertens ea in veritatem propriae carnis He doth flow in to the things offered the power of life conuerting them into the veritie of his owne flesh Neither was he long about it but said the word Statim per verbum in corpus mutatur vt dictum est à Verbo hoc est corpus meum S. Greg. Nyssen Orat. catech c. 37. suddainlie the thing was donne Whereupon this ensued that his bodie was at once in two places In the one situallie as other bodies are in the other sacramentallie according to the manner of a spirit This as our greatest Aduersaries confesse doth vnauoideablie follow vpō the natiue and proper sence of our Sauiours words And Antiquitie so vnderstood and beleeued it affirming that verie bodie which was crucified for our sinnes to be vnder the S Aug. Conc 1. in Psal 33. l. 9. Conf. c. 13. Serm. ad Neoph. apud Bed in c. 10. ad Cor. In the 4. Argu. one place will be discussed S. Chrys Hom 24. in Epist ad Cor. S. Cyrill Catec 4 S. Ansel in c. 11 ad Cor. forme or shape of bread and that blood which issued out of our Sauiours side the verie price of our Redemption to be in S. Chrys Hom. 24. in Epist ad Cor. S. Aug. Epist 162. Serm. ad Neoph. S. Leo Serm. 7. de ieiunio mens sept .. S. Greg. mag lib. 4. Dial c. 58. S. Cyrill Catec 4. the chalice and thence powred into the mouthes of the Communicants They beleeued that the most precious bodie in heauen was at the same S. Chrysost l 3. de Sacerd. Hom. 24. in Epist ad Cor. Hom. 17. in Epist ad Heb. S. Greg. Nyss Orat. Catech c 17. S. Cyrill Alex. anathem 11. in Conc Ephes lib. 11 in Ioan. c 27. Conc. Nicen. 1. in Act. Vatic S. Cyrill Hieros catech 4. time in many places heere on earth that they had Iesus the Mediatour God and man he being at the same time in heauen heere in their S. Cyrill Catech. myst 5. S. Chrys Hom. 24. ad Cor. lib. 3. de Sacerd. Hom. 46. in Ioan. hands and receaued him with their S. Aug. l. 2. con Aduers leg c. 9. Tract 59. in Ioan. Origen Hom. 5. in diuersa S. Cyrill Alex. lib. 10. in Ioan. c. 13 S. Cyrill Hieros Catech. 4. S. Leo. Serm. 7. de ieiunio mens Sept. mouth The ground of which beleefe were the foresaid words and asseueration of our blessed Sauiour to whose Authoritie they had submitted their vnderstandings Take eate this is my bodie They did not presume to dispute with Him about the nature of quantitie or substāce or Or repute it absurd he should be in a mans bellie VVhat is better what purer what more glorious thē the blessed Trinitie and is not the blessed Trinitie in euerie place and now you stop your nose in euerie thing The bodie of our blessed Sauiour is immortall impassible and existeth in the Sacrament according to the manner of a Spirit place they were sure he knew these things better then they did or by that little which man knowes or seemes to know define his Power Art but ingenuouslie honoured and willinglie heard Him as the Master of men and Angels in Coloss 2. whom are hid all the treasures of wisedome and knowledge To feare least the bodie which is substantiallie indiuiduall should be distracted into two bodies by this accidentall and superuenient manner of existencie is a fault in the braine liable to the name rather then any signe of a good and sincere iudgment It is in the Sacrament according to the manner of a Spirit as before hath beene obserued and Spirits are not subiect to distraction by quantitie VVhen a man is beheded is his soule cut in two though that happen and whilst they are in it to be diuided One Angell is able to moue so to be
substantiall indiuidualitie of the bodie for the bodie was before and will be the same after when they be not at all how then could it be concluded that two of them be two substantiall indiuidualities they neither are substantiall indiuidualities which is as easie to be proued as it is easie to proue that your vbication in this place where you are which you may be without when you will is not that whereby you are substantiallie distinct from other mē nor out of their pluralitie doth there ensue a pluralitie in the bodie their subiect for accidēts take not away their proper subiect so to be without any but are in it and these presences which we speake of are accidents not of a bodie in common what euer bodie but of this indiuiduall bodie of our Sauiour Iesus Christ Featlie pag. 140 This way failing your Doctor he takes another to proue against Master Wood a substantiall dualitie in the bodie out of the motion of it for if the same bodie be vnder two seuerall dimensions it might be he thinks the terminus à quo and the terminus ad quem of the same direct motion be moued from it self which is saith he a contradiction But neither can he bring about his intent this waie That which is the subiect of locall motion or the thing which properlie is moued when the Priest for example takes an hoaste out of the pixe are the dimēsions of bread which dimensions haue localitie or situall extension and are in loco in a place whose definition you heard before out of the Philosopher the terminus à quo of which motion is not our Sauiours bodie but the pixe where it was and the terminus ad quem is the communicants mouth wherein he puts it Our Sauiours bodie which is in those dimensions is not in loco per se but per accidens that is to saie though that accident place which is terminus continentis c. doth not affect in in it self yet is it in the dimensions of bread which dimensions are so affected And as it is per accidens in loco so is it locallie moued per accidens not per se The Sacrament is not locus the place of the bodie properly speaking neither is it the bodie commensurated to the place of the species The bodie is not there after the manner of a bodie extended situallie but rather according to the manner of a Spirit though not altogether that way neither but another more vndetermined and supernaturall way whereof the Philosopher wanting faith had no knowledge The Soule Aristotle saith is in loco per accidens 4. Phys t. 45. and his Commentator there Anima est in loco quia sublectum eius quod est corpus est in loco And the Soule is moued per accidens because the bodie or the part wherein it is vnited is moued this motion being nothing els but a successiue comparison to place Motis nobis necessarium est quae in nobis sunt omnia simul moueri saies Aristotle 2. Topic. loco 24. and 4. Phys t. 31. Motum autem aliud mouetur per se aliud mouetur per accidens illud quod mouetur per accidens aliud est quod potest moueri per se verbi gratia membra hominis clauus in naui aliud non potest sed semper mouetur per accidēs verbi gratia albedo cognitio ista enim non mutant sua loca nisi quia illa in quibus sunt transferuntur The connexion or vnion of the Soule vnto the bodie disposed wee know by nature and by reason of this connexion it comes to passe that mouing the bodie vnto a place the soule consequentlie is also there The connexiō of the bodie of our Sauiour with the species is reuealed and made by the forme of consecration which is practicall This in the shape of bread is my bodie And the Councels acknowledge it when they say it is contained in the species sub speciebus panis vini veraciter continetur Conc. Later sub Innocent 3 c. firmiter §. vna est Conc. Trid. Sess 13. c. 1. 3 so the Lateran Councell and the Councell of Trent in the same tenour In sanctissimo Eucharistiae Sacramento continetur verè realiter substantialiter corpus c. and sub singulis cuiusque speciei partibus separatione facta totus Christus continetur So that a double relation is vnderstood there one of the bodie to the species another of the species to the bodie which remaine so that no force in nature can dissolue or separate them whilst the species remaine vncorrupted and this by vertue and power of consecration and of the diuine omnipotence This for the an est of this vnion or connexion the modus of it in particular sainct Thomas saith is ineffabilis It sufficeth to know there is such a connexion by which it comes to passe that mouing the species to a place the bodie of our Sauiour is also there for the species and the bodie cannot be separated or diuorced And as it is there in place in the sence aboue specified namelie per accidens so is it moued per accidens It is further to be noted that when a thing one in it self is multiplex secundum esse I take the word heere in a great latitude it may be moued and not moued secundum diuersa The Sonne of God our blessed Sauiour who is in himself one vnum Ens was moued according to his humane forme Vado ad Patrem quia Pater maior me est Ioa. 14. and according to his diuine forme he was immoueable Your soule which is but one may be moued in your arme and vnmoued in your breast and your bodie may be moued according to one accidentall forme as qualitie though it be not at the same time moued according to another VVere this in English he that is no Scholler could not vnderstand it suppose quantitie Cum aliquid est vnum subiecto saith our Doctour S. Thomas multiplex secundum esse nihil prohibet secundum aliquid moueri secundum aliquid immobile permanere sicut corpori est aliud esse album aliud esse magnum vnde potest moueri secundum albedinem permanere immobile secundum magnitudinem 3. p. qu. 76. a. 6. And in the same place answering an Obiection which was made to proue that our Sauiours bodie is in the Sacrament mobiliter quia nobis motis mouentur ea omnia quae sunt in nobis as before was said out of Aristotle he answers Dicendum quod ratio illa procedit de motu per accidens quo ad motum nostri mouentur ea quae in nobis sunt aliter tamen ea quae per se possunt esse in loco sicut corpora aliter ea quae per se non possunt esse in loco sicut formae spirituales substantiae Ad quem modum potest reduci quod dicimus Christum
moueri per accidens secundum esse quod habet in hoc Sacramento in quo non est sicut in loco Out of these words I take an instance to declare the solution which I gaue to your Argument whereby you would proue that if our Sauiours bodie were in seuerall dimensions sacramētally it might be moued frō it self so be substātiallie diuided in it self The Answer is that diuision in it self followes not out of that motus per accidens My Soule whilst I write is moued per accidens from it self but yet remaines one It were ridiculous to think that I cannot moue my fingers without diuiding an indiuisible and destroying that immortall thing on which the motion it self dependeth As for the termini à quo and ad quem they be those that be the termini of the motus per se When your bodie is in London in your Chamber per se your soule is there in eodem loco your chamber per accidēs the place is one but the manner of being in it is diuerse Per se and per accidens distinguish the manner Whē your bodie is in motion thither to your chamber per se your soule is moued thitherwards too to the same terminus ad quem your chamber per accidens Suppose you be sitting in your studie at your table holding your right hand on the one end and your left hand on the other end When you moue your hands to the middle of the table and put them there together the termini a quibus in these two motions be not your soule which is and was in either hand but the two ends of the table where your hands were be the termini from whence you moued them and the terminus ad quem is not your soule which is in your hands now being together but the middest of the table is the terminus ad quem You must now keepe your hāds there together still for feare least at parting them againe you diuide your soule substantiallie into two by mouing it from it self whilst you moue the right hand wherein it is all from the left wherein it is likewise all or put of your too melancholie imagination of a contradiction to ensue in case a thing should per accidēs be moued from it self or be in two dimensions whereof one is locallie moued from the other Of distance or resting it is the same Whilst your hands or armes do moue one from the other your breast and other parts may rest and the soule in the right hand is neerer to the same soule in the left whē they be ioyned then is the a Of it self and by it self it cānot be distāt from it self soule in the feete Neerer how per accidē that is it is in a part that is neerer moued how per accidens that is it is in a part of dimension which is moued resteth how per accidens that is it is in a part that doth rest Of it self it is not the subiect of these corporall accidents or affections as I told you before Applie this to the bodie existing according to the manner of a spirit after a more eleuated high manner thē that of the soule more incontracted more indetermined more independent of locall affections in seuerall dimensions some testing some moued some neerer some farther of and when any man offers to conclude a contradiction Some learned Deuines haue thought it probable that an angel can be naturallie in two places at once as in two seuerall assumed bodies and you will haue much adoe to demonstrate against them Celarent looke neere whether there be affirmatio and negatio eiusdem de eodem and secundum idem according to the same dimension and you will mile at their ignorance who by their wits do striue to put Gods omnipotencie to the non-p●us Apologist The next tedious busines is about this proposition This is my bodie wherein that substantiall change which is aimed at is attributed to the power of that practicall proposition Censure That the proposition is practicall was the tenet of the first of those witnesses which your Doctor cited as for himself in those words which he cited Acceptum parem corpus suum illum not illud as in Featlies margine fecit how so Hoc est corpus meū dicendo if by saying those words Hoc est corpus meū he made it his bodie those words were practicall the like māner of speach and more expresse too you shall find in other a. Per orationem Verbi Dei ab ip●o Eucharistiā That factum ●ibum ● illius carnem sanguinem esse edect sumus S. Iustin Apol. 2. Qui est à terra panis percipiens vocationem Dei iam non est communis panis sed Eucharistia ex duabus rebus constans terrena coelesti S Iren. l. 4 c. 34 Benedictione etiam natura ipsa mutatur S. Ambros de myst init c. 9. Quòd si tantum valuit humaná benedictio de miraculis loquitur per Moysen aliosque patratis quid dicemus de ipsa consecratione Diuina vbi verba ipsa Domini Saluatoris operantur Ibidem Vide eundem l. 4. de Sacram. c. 5. Panis per Verbum Dei orationem sanctificatur non quia comeditur eo progrediens vt verbi corpus euadat sed statim per Verbum in corpus mutatur vt dictum est à Verbo Hoc est corpus meum S. Greg. Nyssen Orat Catech c. 37. Vox illa hoc est corpus meum semel quidem dicta est sed per omnes mensas Ecclesiae vsque ad hodiernum diem vsque ad eius aduentum Sacrificio praestat firmitatem S. Chrysost de Prod. Iudae vide eundem Hom. 2 In 2. ad Tim. Panis noster calix certa consecrations mysticus fit nobis non nascitur S. Aug. l. 20. cont Faust c. 13. Absit vt de his quicquam sinistrum loquar qui Apostolico gradui succedentes Christi corpus sacro ore conficiunt S. Hier. epist ad Heliod Transformatur arcanis verbis panis iste per mysticam benedictionem accessionem Spiritus S in carnem Domini Theophilact in c 6 Ioan. Virtute Spiritus-S per Verbum Christi fit sanguis Domini Paschal lib. de Corp. Dom. c. 12. Per eius virtutem prolatum ab eo Verbum quae videntur tam sanctificata sunt vt cunctum carnis sensum excedunt I sich l. 6. in Leuit. c. 22. Auncients whom you will not I suppose yet I haue cause to feare the contrarie but you should not I am sure offer to controule That which was aimed at or disputed of was not the change but the Read presence as you haue beene oft put in mind though it be true also that those words do serue to proue there is a change of substance For that which was vnder them before consecration was bread S Cyril Hier. and that which is vnder them after consecration is not