conteined comparison of two Reuelations of the spirite the one made to the body and the other to the members which they maintaine to be of equal value touching the certaintie and in the confession is mention made of the Reuelation of Gods spirite which causeth the consent of the Churche which foloweth thereof as the effecte And if it be so that the cause being preferred afore his effect there is greate reason that the Reuelation of the spirite of God compared with the consent of the Churche should be preferred afore it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the cōtrarietie which they pretend in Confessions Printed in diuers seasons and by sundrie Printers they shall be Aunswered when their pleasure is to debate the Articles particularly Question Where they made a doubt of the true Church euen the like may be said of the Reuelations pretēded of Gods spirit to particular men whom also we may dout whether they be members of the Church or not Touching the other point where they denie to impugne the fourthe Article of their Confession there séemes no small contradiction as comparing the particular Reuelation with the consent of the church as appeareth by their Aunswere it séemes also to serue to small purpose where they alledge the Reuelation to be the cause of the consent preferring it afore the same as the cause afore the effecte the same séeming as who should say the Reuelation is to be preferred afore the word of God and holy scripture for it is moste certaine that the Reuelation goeth before the woorde and scripture And as it appeares in the texte of the Confession which may be easily iudged the Authors of the same speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two Reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their spirite than that which is of the iudgemēt of the churche Touching the other pointe that particulare men may sometimes faile when Gods spirite leaues them we may conclude by that we ought not to rest infallibly vpon the inspirations pretended of particulare men bicause it may be douted whether they be forsaken of Gods spirite or not which we can not do of the Church therefore it is more assured to stay vpon the Churche infallibly gouerned by the holy spirite than vpon the priuate pretended inspirations which the Catholikes do not folowing their priuate iudgement and therfore can not be estéemed fantastike but rather such are guiltie of that name who prefer their proper iudgement which they couer with the title of particulare inspiration The Doctors require a texte of the Scripture by the which the holy spirite is promised to euery particulare person as to the vniuersal church therby to know how to iudge and discerne what be the scriptures Aunsvvere Touching the first pointe as in déede we do not approue all churches to be true which are so said euen so we allowe not for faithfull suche as vaunt them selues to be so For the second the comparison of the Doctoures is improper in this pointe as who should say the Reuelation is to be preferred afore the woorde of god c. Bicause Gods worde and all the writings aswel of the Prophetes as Apostles are as so many Reuelations of Gods spirite and that betweene the one and the other there is no more difference than betweene genus and species Touching the Article that the Reuelation goeth before the scripture we muste distinguishe betwéene the Reuelations made to the Prophets before they committed them to writing and those which are made to them that read their writings to vnderstande them For the first we confesse they goe before the scripture and for the seconde we say they folowe it Touching the third Article the ministers Aunswere that it is easie to iudge whether Gods spirite assist a particulare man or whether he be drawne from him by the matters he propoundes when they be conferred with Gods woorde and censured by the rules of the same as is saide Touching their demaunde it were a long and weary encomber to alleage all the places where it is written that Gods spirite is communicated to the chosen the better to knowe and discerne the things that are of God in Esay 5◠the Lord promiseth to poure his spirite vppon the faithfull as water vpon the earthe Likewise in Ioel. 2 Ieremie 34. in the first Catholike of S. Iohn 2. vnder the name of vnction and many other places Obiection These places make no proofe at all that the spirite was promised to all to iudge of the Doctrine Other wayes euen women and all artificers that were faithfull mighte iudge of the Doctrine as the Prophetes and Apostles of the contrary S. Paule saithe Numquid omnes Propheta c. He saithe expressely that discretion of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the scriptures and be giftes not common to all the faithfull but particulare to some Aunswere The consequence which the Doctors make is nothing woorthe bicause Gods spirite oftentimes is communicated more aboundantly to some than to others and that also some be better exercised in the scriptures than others Touching the place of S. Paule 1. Corinth 12. the ministers say it makes nothing against them bicause the spirite of Prophecie and the spirite of discretion be giftes differing as appeares by the discourse of the Apostle in the same Chapter The second day of disputation being VVednesday the tenth of Iuly THe Doctors required that their Protestation made the day before might be Inregistred which was this that they would not enter into disputation of things receiued into the vniuersall Churche since the Apostles till our time decided and already determined by the holy Councels Ecumenike and general holding them most certaine and vndouted and that all Doctrine to the contrary was false Onely they were ready according to the holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and the Ladie of Buillon his daughter to make knowne by the expresse woorde of God interpreted by the saide vniuersall Churche and Councels that their Doctrine is holy and conducible to saluation in which Doctrine as the saide Ladie had bene first instructed so all instruction ministred to her in the contrary is hurtful and damnable And lastly that this conference might be in manner of instruction and not a Disputation In like sorte the Ministers protested that they did not ioyne in assemblie with the Doctoures for any doubte they had that all that was centained in their Confession of faith was not certaine and true and grounded vpon Gods woord as appeareth by the places of Scripture noted in the Margent of the sayde Confession beléeuing that what so euer is contrary is damnable and to be reiected thoughe euen an Aungell of heauen would propone it And touching themselues they came not thither to be instructed in other Doctrine than that which they folowe and which they haue learned of Iesus Christe whome they acknowledge as the only maister and teacher of the churche Héere the Lorde of
the Question For the Doctours demaunde seeing it is essentiall and naturall to a body earthly and heauie in respecte of his waight and heauinesse to tende downeward to know if God by his only vertue against the natural propertie of a body heauie and waighty can not hold and suspend it on highe And touching the euasion which the Ministers make of a most strong and mightie argument againste their Doctrine that two bodies may be in one place according to the proofe taken of the scripture not only to iustifie that God can bring to passe that two bodies may be in one place but also that he hath done it serues for nothing to couer their erroure as to say that in S. Iohn it is not written that our Lord did not enter by the gates shutte but that he was in the midst of them and stoode where the saide Ministers helde their peace and omitted this Verbe venit reasting onely vppon this Verbe stetit For the expresse Texte of S. Iohn Chapter .21 verse .19 saythe that the doores being shut Iesus came into the place where the Disciples were assembled and was there in the middest of them And therefore we nowe aske them séeing the Scripture sayeth he came thither the Doores being shutte and was in the middest of them Whether he was in the middest of them and in the saide place wythoute entring Or if he dyd enter seeing the Texte beares that the Doores were shutte when hee came how will they proue by the Scripture that he entred there but by the shutte doores the same séeming a greater miracle to be in the middest of his Disciples without entring into the place where they were This refuge is too light to saie it is not written that he entred For S. Augustine in his Booke de Agone Christiano Chap. 24. vseth these woords Nec nos moueat quòd clausis ostijs subito euâ—n apparnisse Discipulis scriptum est vt propterea negemus illud fuisse humanuÌ„ quia contra naturam huius Corporis videmus illud per clausa ostia intrare omnia enim possibilia sunt Deo. Nam ambulare super aquas contra naturam huius Corporis esse manifestum est tamen non solum ipse Dominus ante Passionem ambulauit sed etiam Petrum ambulare fecit Wherein appeares that S. Augustine holdes openly that our Lord entred by the shutte doores referring the whole to the almightinesse of God. Besides the Texte of S. Luke ioined with the authoritie of S. Iohn declares that he entred throughe the doores for the Apostles had not had reasonable occasion to thinke it was a Sprite and not a Body seeing him in the semblance of a man before them but that he entred otherwayes than a true Body and a true man can doo meaning that he entred by the shutte doores whiche a true man and true body coulde no waye doo Neither coulde it serue to any pourpose to saie that the doores were open and then shutte by myracle or otherwayes For so mighte a true body a true man enter the same taking away al occasion to thinke that it was a Sprite or Vision Moreouer the Doctours saie that all the Auncient Heretikes and Christians were of this common accorde that Iesus Christe passed through but their difference was suche as at this daye is betwene the Doctours and the Ministers The Aunciente Heretikes helde that Christe after his Resurrection had not a true bodye bicause he did woorkes contrary to the nature of a body the same implying contradictioÌ„ in the naturall body that in one instante he was in one selfe place with an other bodye as when he had passed throughe the doores The Ancient Christian Catholikes aunswered that truely the nature of the Body bare that he coulde not passe throughe the doores issue out of the bodye of the Virgyn in his byrthe without breaking it nor come throughe the stone of the Sepulcher in his Resurrection but yet that it did not imply contradiction that two bodies shoulde be together by the Omnipotencie of God bicause it was so happened in the three cases done and recited The firste that speakes of it is Iustinus Martyr in the 117. Question againste the Gentiles wherein he makes this Demaunde If a bodye grosse or thicke saith he be lette to be able to passe throughe the doores howe did our Lorde enter the doores being shutte after his ResurrectioÌ„ And if it be so why was the stone rolled by the Angel from the mouthe of the graue to the ende his body might rise againe he aunsweres euen as our Lorde withoute chaunging his Bodye into a Sprite walked vppon the sea making in deede by his Diuine power the sea harde to walke vpon it and not onely to beare his body but S. Peters also euen so by his diuine power came he out of his graue the stone lying vppon it and entred to his Disciples the doores being shutte by whiche as we haue to vnderstande that things procéeding of diuerse vertues oughte to haue a like Faithe euen so wée oughte to know that suche things as passe nature when they are done in the same by power diuine ought not be measured according to the reason and propertie of nature in whiche respecte our Lorde séeing his Disciples troubled with his entrie offered them to touch the partes of his body the markes skarres of his woundes to the end they might sée he did not enter by changing his bodye into a sprite but in his proper body composed of his conuenient dimensions thicknesse and that by his Diuine almightinesse which did al things excéeding the force of nature S. Hilarie in his third Booke of the Trinitie euen of thée saith he which wilt search things iuscrutable be iudge of Gods secrets his power I aske couÌ„sel that thou giue me reason and solution only of this deede yea to me that am ignorant beleue simply in God touching al things as he hath saide and pronounced them I meane that as the Lord hath oftentimes presented himselfe after his Resurrection to be séene and knowne of those who beleued it not So the same Lorde applying him selfe to the imbecilitie of our vnderstanding and to satisfie the doubtes of the vnfaithefull shewes a secrete an acte of his Omnipotencie Therefore expounde to me who euer thou arte that wilte be a searcher of the Omnipotencie of God the reason of this facte The Disciples were enclosed together and drawne into a secrete place the Lorde reuealed him selfe to Thomas to confirme his Faithe according to the condition he desired that is to touche his body and proue his woundes For whiche reason and cause it muste needes be that he bare euen that true body wherein he had receiued those woundes I aske then séeing he was Corporall by what parte of the house did he thruste or intrude him selfe within For I see the Euangelistes opnion is plaine that Iesus came the doores being shutte and was amidde his Disciples Did
the Ministers folowe Loâ—us est superficies Corporis continentis by which if the highe and laste Heauen were circumscript of place there must needes be an other body aboue the highe and firste Heauen a quo primum Coelâ—m contineretur sic in infinitum For the rest the Ministers giue no answere to the other obiections made vpon this Article Touching the places of Scripture which they alleage to proue that there are places aboue the Heauens they doo paraphrase and abuse the ambiguitie of the name of a Place For in al their speache of the dimension of Bodyes whiche thei say doth necessarily require a place equal to their greatnesse they must meane Corporall places as the dimension of bodyes demaunde And now when they speake of places aboue Heauen they must vnderstand meane theÌ„ other than Corporal as not being such places or like to those wherin our bodyes be heard but places incomprehensible and imaginable where bodies and Sprites are indifferent without distinction of certaine spaces and places Corporall for their greatnesse in whiche places the Rule of the Ministers is false by which they mainteine that one body cannot be in one place if it conteine not roumth according to the greatnesse of the body for the reste we saie the manner of Heretikes is to interprete the Scriptures spiritually when they should take them according to the Letter and of the contrary to expounde by the Letter that which oughte to be vnderstanded spiritually and by figures as the Ministers expounde the house of God in the other world Literally and Corporally as to conteine spaces and Corporall habitations diuerse and separated one from an other albeit it oughte to be vnderstanded spiritually for the diuersitie of degrées of beatitude neither can the Doctours here omitte one manifest contradiction of the Ministers in this Article wherein they pretende that the Bodies and Soules of the blessed are lodged aboue al the Heauens and yet they lodge the Bodye of Iesus Christe within Heauen And touching the Article condemned by the Facultie of the Diuines of Paris we answer that it is an ordinarie vse with the Ministers to alleage Authorities either corrupt or improper For the Article saithe that the Bishop of Paris hauing assembled the Facultie condemned all suche as would mainteine twoo seuerall Heauens the one for Aungelles and the other for the soules of men whiche apperteines nothing to the present question In the fourth Article the Ministers impose vpon the Doctoures who neuer attribute the propertie of God to any creature and haue saide many times before that to be euerywhere and incircumscript was not naturall to any creature but onely to god Wherein the Authoures alleaged by the Ministers as S. Basil Dydimus and Vigilius speake not otherwayes than of the propertie of Nature to be euerywhere or not and yet denie not that it is in Gods power to bring to passe that a creature or bodye be in twoo or many places aboue his nature but as hath bene saide when they come to the power of God many of those ancient authours confesse it to be possible to God and that he hath done so in the Sacrament and therfore the Ministers answer is out of the matter séeing al the contention is but of Gods power not of natural properties In this fifth Article the Ministers haue not rightly comprehended the reason of the Doctours who haue not alleaged that Aungelles are circumscripte naturally as well as bodyes by whiche they woulde inferre that the circumscription of place simply depended not as of the only essential cause of the dimensions of a body as by al their said reasons the Ministers pretende notwithstanding the Doctours are not ignorant that to put difference betwene corporall and spiritual creatures there is a custome in the schole to distinguish the Angels sunt diffinitiuè in loco bodies circuÌ„scriptiuè In the sixth Article to satisfie the Doctours request to produce one only place or testimonie of the Ancients to proue it not in Gods power to make one body in twoo places The Ministers for al the authorities they can haue alleage falsly one place of S. Augustine where it is said as is recited vpon Gratian de Consecratione Distinct 2. C. Prima quidem that S Augustine wrote that it muste be that Christes body be in one place whereunto the Doctours answere that it is not so set downe in the proper text of S. Augustine which is in the 30. Treatise vpon S Iohn the tenure being thus in all the ancient exemplaries of S. Augustine Corpus Domini in quo resurrexit vno loco esse potest Veritas eius vbique diffusa est Here is no Oportet as the Ministers recite hauing it of Gratian. And to the ende it be knowne that there oughte no greate trust to be had in the fragmentes of Gratian without hauing recourse to the exemplaries of S. Augustine In the title of the Canon there be these woordes drawne out of the Exposition of S. Augustine vppon the 54. Psalme from whence he drawes the onely beginning of his Canon and yet he brings it not in as for truth the residue of which Canon is taken of diuerse places of the saide S Augustine And albeit there were Oportet yet S. Augustine vsing his custome speakes according to the propertie of the Bodye opposing the Diuinitie to the Humanitie and toucheth not the operation of Goddes Omnipotencie whereof when he doothe make mention and that he speakes of the Sacramente he affirmes expressely the Bodye of Iesus Christe to be in diuerse places by the Almightinesse of God as wée hope to deduce aswell of him as other Auncientes in our resolution The eighth Article conteines many Erroures againste Philosophie and Truthe as first in that they make no Distinction betwéene a body called Mathematicall whiche is hauing dimension of largenesse length and height and a body Physical or natural that is composed of a forme substantial and matter by the vnitie of which it is made a body natural and substantial In the second place if the body should be without quantitie yet would it differ from our soules separated which be no substance materiall and consequently it would differ also from Angels and Sprites In the thirde place for conclusion of this Article the Ministers declare plainly not to acknowledg any substantiall Body And where they saie that if God could separate the dimensions of a substance and not corrupte it that that substance should remaine spirituall as the Angells they are abused for that substance shoulde not remaine immateriall as our Soules and Angelles doo which be not capable of dimensions and therefore shoulde be still differente from Angels and our Soules To the ninth Article the Ministers answere nothing to pourpose for the Doctours holde not that grauitie weight are essentialles in a body but to encline downewarde is essential to the heauinesse weight of a body thei demaunded also in their obiection if an Earthely body and
the shut doores by the Omnipotencie of God. S. Ierome in the place noted by the Doctors writes manifestly that the body pierced the shut doores euen as the Poetes persuade that the sight of Lynceus pierced the wals without opening to sée through The said S. Ierome at that time did argue vpon the nature of the body which the Bishop of Ierusalem infected with the Heresie of Origen helde was not true in Iesus Christ after his Resurrection bicause he had passed through the shut doores coÌ„trary to the nature of a body to whoÌ„ S. Ierome as also other ancients persuades that that actâ— nothing derogates the nature of the body as procéeding of a supernaturall vertue affirming no lesse in his first Booke against Iouinian in this phrase Iesus entred the doores being shut quod humanoruÌ„ corporum natura non patitur And so with others he puttes the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ It is moste true that S. Augustine in thrée Bookes at the leaste vseth expresse opinion that this bodye passed throughe the shut doores and that as the same was wrought by Gods power aboue the nature of Bodyes so the Heretikes for all that ought not to denie the true Body of Iesus Christe this he speakes in his Booke de Câ—uitate Dei besides his place de Agone Christiano and the Epistle ad Volusianum already alleaged Epiphanius in his first Booke in the Heresie 20. and in the second Booke 64. againste the Origenistes declares that it is but a spirituall bodye meaning that he loseth nothing of his corporall substance but changeth and draweth to him newe qualities and spiritual perfections conuenient to Sprites as to passe throughe the walles without opening giuing example of the bodye of Iesus Christe after his Resurrection who pearced and passed throughe the doores being shutte And so iudgeth with others that the myracle was done in the body of Iesus Christe as pearcing the shutte doores as a Sprite albeit he was a true Body Cyrillus Alexandrinus determines also with others that this myracle happened in the body of our Lorde who by the same woonder marched aboue the waters contrary to the nature of a body by the power of God reprehending al such as stoode in any ielous suspition that Christes body was not Naturall By al these authorities the foure fundations afore proponed are true and therefore it is too greate an impudencie to séeke to corrupt the intente and faithe of so many Aunciente and Learned Christians to introduce a confusion of new interpretations For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza the Ministers auouche twoo others as firste that the Angell opened the doore as if Iesus had not had the power to open it himselfe or had needed other opening The other is that he made his opening where he woulde by which diuersities the Ministers giue open declaration that they knowe not whereupon to reste And whiche woorse is they coulde not alleage one onely Aunciente as Authoure of their fiction or that is contrary to all the other since the Primitiue Church it serues them to nothing to alleage that the iron doore in the Actes of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of himselfe for the Doctors did neuer denie it only we said that the Scripture spake not of the doore of the prisone And if at the entrie of Iesus Christe the doores had bene so opened the Euangelist had as easily graunted it as he said they were shutte and as S. Luke said that this doore of iron opened of himselfe There is no difficultie that the firste that doubted of the body of Iesus Christ in this world did not agrée of the place touching the doores with the other Christians And all be it they thoughte to serue and aide themselues with it in the mainteining of their heristes as with all the other miracles hapned in the body of Christe aboue nature yet the Auncients neuer denied this facte nor the other like to it for feare to giue occasion of erroure to the Heretikes but they declared and distinguished what was the nature of the said body and that which hapned to him by the omnipotencie of God The Christians for any herisie did neuer abandon truthe albeit the Heritikes haue sometimes abused it But now seeing Christes body passed thorowe the doores without opening it is certaine that two bodies haue bene in one place and that they may be so by which we haue well proued our proposition which without either scripture or auncient testimonie the Ministers denie Touching the birth of Iesus Christe without breaking of the Virgine we say that a great part of the Auncientes produced for the place of the doores holde that this miracle also was done in the body of our Lord and not in the body of the Virgine sauing in that shée remained in hir integritie without breaking or opening And for their reason the Auncients haue alleaged the scripture Ecce virgo concipiet pariet and Ezechiel porta haec clausa erit as also S. Ambrose recites in his Epistle .80 wherin is contained a councel which S. Ambrose did assist determining againste Iouinian and other heritikes that virginitie and integritie remained in the mother of God in hir deliuerie S. Augustine repeating the same in the place alleaged by the Doctoures in his first Booke against Iulian Chap. 2. And where the ministers say that the virgin should not haue loste hir virginitie though our Lord had issued out as other men doe in this they are condemned of heresie by the Auncients who note Iouinian to derogate the virginitie as holding opinion with the ministers to whom the Doctors make this question what miracle they would acknowledge in the birthe of our Lord as touching his body and the virginitie of his mother if he came from hir as other men do from their mothers as the Ministers write And touching that which they alleage of Tertullian Origen S. Ambrose S. Ierome the Doctors say that Tertullian and Origen held suche heresie and many others which were reproued afore Iouinian of this they haue bin coÌ„demned with him his consorts But for the respecte of S. Ambrose it is apparant that he beléeued the contrary as wel by the Councel which he assisted as by that which he writes in his Booke de institutione Virginis wherin we haue to interprete his woordes that Christus vuluam aperuerit not that it was by breaking but by effecte of generation and production of his true body out of the bellie of his mother by miracle and vertue supernaturall in suche sorte that euen as his Conception was miraculous so also was his birthe And aperire vuluam is a phrase and manner of spéeche in the Scripture as to say and name the firste borne in what sort he might haue bene borne And touching S. Ierome he saithe nothing of the breaking but only that the body came out bloudie as he was in the wombe of his mother to be bloudy is not required breaking of the mother
It is easie to iudge whether the ende of the doctrine which is propownded stretch to establishe and exalt the honor and glorie of God as if the same mooue exhortations to men to withdrawe whollie their trust from creatures and reappose and lay it altogyther vpon God to haue recourse to hym in their necessities to depende vpon his prouidence in all their transitorie affayres and lastly to prayse hym with thankesgyuing for all the benefits they haue which being presupposed there is no doubt that the doctrine including this purpose and ende is not good and to be receyued touching the obiection that our former aunswere fell from the boundes of the first proposition it séemes not so bicause the first matter propownded tended to knowe what was the grounde of our religion to the which it was aunswered that it was the wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles Question This aunswere is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptistes yea and to the Deistes who aboue the reast professe to searche the glorie of God and what else the aunswere conteynes and generally all men vsing this spéech coulde not but erre in all the articles of the Créede except the first But to cut of this circumstance of spéeche and returne to the point we thinke it not lawfull to vse a foundation of the scripture afore it be knowne and assured that it is the holye scripture and that there is difference betwéene the bookes of the same and also afore it be manifest that I haue a particuler inspiration of the holye spirite and that such a priuate breathing of the holy ghost be a sufficient ground of religion Aunswere The Deistes or other heretikes can not serue their turne with the sayde aunswere for the confirmation of their errors bicause the Deistes denying Iesus Christ can not glorifie God seing that to glorifie the father it is néedefull first to knowe and glorifie the sonne and euen so the other heretikes who notknowing the truth nor by consequent Iesus Christ whichis the waye the lyfe and the truth muste néedes be ignoraunt of God and howe to glorifie hym And where our aunswere is noted superfluous or to wander indecently we lay our selues to be measured and iudged by the conference of the demaunde and aunswere And touching the last point of the obiection that the reuelation which a priuate man sayth he hath of the spirite of God is to hym as a grounde of religion that is without the sense wordes of our aunswere which stretched onely to laye the foundation of true religion vpon the doctrine of the Prophetes and Apostles of whose truth all the church generally and euerie particuler member of the same are assured by the testimonie and inwarde reuelation of the spirite of God. Question All that is here spoken must be added to the other aunswere afore it be good and it séemes that the aunswere contaynes but matter of mockerie For it is most certaine that when all truth is in the doctrine of one man he is no more wicked or an heretike But we search still the beginning of truth and what it ought to be And touching the replye denying that the particuler reuelation is the ground of religion there is no great difference For if the particuler reuelation be a sufficient grounde for euery one to know that which is of the Apostles and Prophets it is by consequent the foundation of religion as being the grounde to know vpon what euerie particuler man knoweth and sayth his religion is founded Aunswere We framed our aunsweres according to the nature and maner of the demaunds by which appeares no likelihoode of disposition to scoffe or iest séeing that in such a conference as this is where is question to searche the honor and glory of God mockerie could not be without impietie But touching reuelation to be like to the scripture which is the grounde of religion we denie it and affirme them to be things different notwithstanding their coniunction as following one an other according as it is written in Esay Beholde my allyance with them sayth the Lorde my spirite which is in thee the wordes which I haue breathed into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy lippes nor from the mouth of thy seede and so as followeth by which maye be iudged the distinction that the Prophet vseth betwéene the reuelation of the holy spirite and the worde Question I leaue for conclusion of this conference euerye one to iudge of the conueniencie or agréement of the aunsweres and obiections And touching the wordes alledged out of Esay of the vnitie of the worde and holy spirite they be but spéeches without purpose and newe matter neyther ought we to compare the reuelation of euerye particuler man which was the question with that of the Prophet Esay who had the other proofes that the holy ghost spake by him and made demonstration thereof many times Lastly what soeuer is alledged I leaue to the iudgement of euerye christian Aunswere Euen so also we referre to iudgement what hath béene inferred mutuallie of the one other part And touching the place of Esay which we produced there is no question at all of the reuelation of the Prophet nor the spirite that was communicated to hym but onely of the spirite and wordes which God promised to all his people with whome he entred his alliance For the other proofes pretended that the Prophete had of his vocation we make no doubt at all of them onely we protest that to be principall and most assured which he had by the testimonie of Gods spirite as appeareth in the sixt Chapter of his prophecie Question Be it that he spake to his people by the person of Esay yet it followes not but that he spake first to Esay neyther doe I denie that he promised not his spirite to his people meaning to his vniuersall Church not that he would that euery one yea being in thys church might vsurpe or vaunt to haue this spirite promised particulerly And touching the particuler inspiration of Esay it was not founded onely on his fancie and presumption but in the assuraunce which God gaue him in supernaturall woorkes as is witnessed in hys sixt chapter Besides it was not sufficiently grounded to be beléeued as to haue an inspiration if he had not declared it by other effects and prophesies which hapned as belonges to euerie Prophete to doe afore he beléeued But referring all these things as matters fetched from farre and out of the first proposition I leaue the iudgement as before Aunswere There is not one of the church if he be a true member of the same to whome the spirite of God is not communicated according to the testimonie of the Apostle Paule and also the Euangelist Iohn in his first Catholike For the presumption pretended there is great difference betwéene presumption and the imaginations of the spirite of man which is but darknesse and of himselfe knoweth nothing in the things of God and the
ReuelatioÌ„s of the holy spirite which are most certaine and of no lesse assurance And so lastly touching our Answeres to be out of the first matter or spéeche If they be so so also are the Demaundes Obiection The Conclusion is whether euery one ought to be beléeued saying he hath a particulare Reuelation of the holy spirite without Declaration otherwayes that there be holy Scriptures and that there is difference betwéene the same Let euery one be iudge whether the Demaundes and Aunsweres be pertinent to this difficultie or not like as also whether the one importe more credite and beléefe than the other as the one béeing a newe Doctrine shewes not any proofe more than the other of their particular inspiration Aunswere In our former Answers we haue declared howe the Reuelations supposed by particulare persons ought to be examined by suche meanes as they may be discerned whether they be of Gods spirite or not Héere Doctor Vigor intercepted his further spéeche saying that in the discourse aforesaide he vnderstoode muche matter in the mynisters Aunswers to be against the woorde of God as where it is sayde that first the Sonne must be honored afore the father which Spyna mainteined to be vndoutedly true alleaging that proposition to haue his ground and authoritie on the holy scriptures as in the gospel and first Catholike of S Iohn Whervnto Vigor Replies that in the saide places is not founde this woorde firste albeit in respecte not to incident the matters alleaged in the beginning of the conference he wil forbeare for the present to enter into Confutation reseruing that charge til the ende of al the conference Aunswere Spyna requires Doctor Vigor to coate the places of scripture which he pretendes to be contrary to the contentes of his Aunswere And to iustifie his opinion to glorifie first the Sonne afore the Father according to the testimonie of the textes afore noted he preferres this reason grounded and drawne out of the Scriptures we can not knowe the Father onlesse we haue knowne the Sonne we can not glorifie the Father onlesse we haue knowne him by which the consequence foloweth that the knowledge and glorie of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glorie of the Father which being referred by Vigor to be more amplie debated in the conclusion of the whole conference Spina was also content Obiection Vigor Obiectes without entring further into this disputation that by the selfe same reason inferred by Spina it foloweth that we must honoure the Father afore the Sonne for by the Father we come to the knowledge of the Sonne as appeareth by the woordes of our Lord to S. Peter Caro sanguis noÌ„ reuelauit tibi sed pater meê° qui in coelis est The same aduouching manifestly that the heauenly Father reuealed to S Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon Vigor argues in this sorte whether the reason of Spina be vaileable by the Father we knowe the Sonne therefore muste we firste honoure the Father afore the Sonne Aunsvvere To followe the order of the knowledge which we oughte to haue of Iesus Christe and his Father propouned to vs in S Iohn we must begin by the Sonne and from the Sonne to the Father For S. Philip desiring him once to shew to him and his companions his Father He answered Philip who hath seene me hath also séene my Father the same teaching that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is a former knoweledge of the Sonne which may be also approued by the Authorities of other places where Iesus Christe saithe that none knoweth the Father but the Sonne and he to whome the Sonne wil reueale him And to aunsweare the Authoritie of S Mathewe alledged by Vigor Spina saithe that the place by him produced contained no mention of the knowledge of the Father nor the meane to come thereunto but only of the Reuelation which was made by the grace of God and his holy spirite to S. Peter and his other companions to know Iesus Christ and in him his Father Whereupon Vigor calles vppon the iudgemente of the Auditorie whether this be an Answere to his Obiection reseruing notwithstanding till an other conference to handle this pointe more largely if he wil mainteine it as not now to incident that which hath bene proponed whereunto Spina consentes Vigor addes further vpon an Answere made by Spina where he vsed a difference betweene the Reuelation certaine by the Lorde to a particulare man and the holy Scripture in which Aunswere he seemes to put a maruell the rather for that there is no Faithe giuen to holye Scripture but only that the Lorde is the Author thereof who can not lie euen so if a particular man be assured that a Reuelation is made to him by the Lord or that a persone be assured of the Reuelation made to an other be bound asmuch to giue faith to the Reuelation as to the scripture the which matter also he will not as he may amplie handle and deduce but falles eftsoones vpon the first Question which as yet hathe not bene resolued to the which he prayes Spina to aduaunce and prepare himselfe Aunswere The cause of Vigors maruell touching the Reuelation of the Lorde and the woorde to be thinges differing produced in one of Spinas Answeres moues in that he conceiues not the sense and meaning of the spéeche For Spina wil not put a difference touching the certaintie betweene the true Reuelations of the Lorde and the woorde whiche proceeding from him is no lesse true than the Reuelation and the Reuelation of Reciprocal Faithe with the woorde and yet it followes not for all that that the woorde and Reuelations of Goddes spirite by whiche we may be ledde to the vnderstanding of the woorde be not things differente and that the one goeth not afore the other And touching Vigors request to prepare to the pointe he Aunswereth that he can not frame or draw his Answers from other grounde than the Demaundes that are made him To this Vigor Replied that touching the sense he layeth him selfe vpon the contentes of Spinas Aunswere And where he saithe that the woorde goeth afore the Reuelation that deserues not to set a difference vppon the question propouned And touching the matter of the pointe Vigor Demaundes if a persone may be assured that he hath the Reuelation of the Lord or that a Booke be a Booke of holy scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inwarde inspiration And lastly how he may assertaine any of this inspiration which he hath of the Lord. Aunswere The first Article of the last demaunde is not a thing impertinent to distinguishe the scripture from the interpretation of the same seeing they are matters diuers and sundry giftes of the lord And to answer that part of the demaund how a particulare man hauing in his heart the Reuelation and inwarde witnesse of Gods spirite may knowe that it is Canonical the spirite of God is
not different of him selfe and abiding in a particular man he shall alwayes acknowledge the Scripture that comes of him and which beares his markes And touching the second demaund we say also that the same spirite being in a third man shal acknowledge that aswell the woorde as the Reuelation are of him by the reasons alledged that is that Gods spirite in diuers persones is alwayes equal and like to himselfe Obiection This dothe not satisfie the firste Question proponed which conteined a demaunde how any man can iudge in him selfe that he hath the holy spirit to discerne and iudge a boke to be of the holy Scripture and an other not to be but Apocryphall and lastly how he can make demonstration to an other that he is possessed with this inspiration of God. Aunswere The spirite of God is called a seale in the Scripture for that the firste effecte he bringes forthe in the heart of him to whom he is communicated is to assure him of his presence And to assure a second of the Reuelation which we haue receiued of Gods spirite it is also easie for that the spirite of God which openeth the mouth of one to speake openeth also the eares of an other to heare his woorde the heart to beléeue him and himselfe to persuade it so that betwéene the maister and disciple the Doctor and the hearer being bothe furnished and lightened by Gods spirite there is also a mutuall concorde to knowe one an other Obiection Suche a certaintie is a great incertaintie neither is there any of what secte so euer he be who doth not assure him selfe to haue the holy spirite and truthe of his side which is a fond presumption howe may a man distinguishe a presumption from a true inspiration Aunswere S. Iohn Chrysostome saith that in vaine doth a man vaūte himselfe to haue the spirite withoute the woorde which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge all matters that the heretikes and others would propounde vnder the authoritie and title of Gods spirite For as by this spirite we knowe the true sense of the woord euen so do we discerne mutually by the woord who they be that haue the spirite of God and who not Obiection This is no Aunswere to the Demaunde for there is no Question to examine the doctrine by the woord but to know that it be the woorde of God by whiche we wil examine the doctrine and approue it and how a man shall iudge assuredly that he hath a Reuelation of the Lord and that it be Gods woorde Aunsvvere If he be one of the faithfull he may iudge by Gods spirite that is in him as in him that telles it him And if he be of the vnfaithfull it is as impossible that he iudge as a blinde man to discerne coloures laid afore him bicause as S Paule saith it is by the spirite of God by whom we knowe and iudge the things that are of God. Obiection This Aunswere is yet insufficient to the Question produced wherof let the iudgement rest among the hearers and Readers But now wée put foorth an other demaund whether wee are certaine by Gods woorde that the Lord assistes his Churche and will assiste it vntill the consummation of the worlde And whether there be not more assurance to staie vpon the consentes and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonical Bookes of the holy Scripture and the distinction of the same from the Apocryphall than to rest vpon singular iudgement esteeming it to be an inwarde inspiration of the whiche there can be no proofe made but only by opinion that wee haue the holy sprite Aunswere The Doctors confuse the opinions of the fantastical sort with the testimonies and Reuelations of the Holy Sprite notwithstanding there is asmuch distinction betwene them two as from heauen to earth And touching the consente of the Churche supposed to procéede of the Sprite of God it is infallible and of no lesse certaintie than the particulare Reuelations of Esay and other Prophetes And because both the one and the other procéede of one Authour whiche is the Sprite of Truth the certeintie of the Reuelations of Gods Sprite made to al the Church in generall to euery particular member of the same conteine one self poyse weight Obiection The Ministers cannot conceale from the Catholikes or others but that they are fantastike as making no proofe of the Reuelation of the Holy Sprite made to them no more than other sectes doo And touching that pointe supposed that it proceedes of Gods sprit they seeme to dout of the assistance of the Holy sprite in Gods Church which as S Paule saith Est columna firmamentum Veritatis Wherein is to be wel considered that they hold them more certaine of the assistaunce of the Lorde in particulare than in the vniuersall Church by which the conclusion may folowe that aswel the particular faithful can neuer straie as also that he is a piller of truth no lesse than the vniuersal Churche besides in laying the particular Reuelations in equal ballaunce weight with the iudgement of the Church they doo openly impugne their confession of faith in the fourth Article wher it is thus written Wée know these Bookes to be Canonical a most certaine rule of our faith not so much by the common accord consent of the Church as the testimonies and inward persuasion of the holy sprite who makes vs discerne them from the other ecclesiastical Bookes By the said Article it is seene howe muche they doo attribute to them selues more than to the whole vniuersal Church which Article they doo now resist giuing asmuch to the one as to the other yea in the confession of faithe lastly printed the saide Article was taken awaye as appeareth by that whiche this daye Spyna hathe broughte hither printed at Geneua 1564. by whiche may be séene that they retracte them selues as confessing that it behooues more te staie vpon the common consents of the church than vpon particulare the same being reasonable séeing the holy sprite is promised to the vniuersal Churche and not to euery particulars man. Aunswere If the Ministers may be thoughte fantasticke notwithstanding they haue Gods woorde with better proofe the Doctors maie be holden such in matters which they mainteine and defende both without against Gods woorde touching the seconde pointe reprouing the Ministers that they dout of the assistaunce of the sprite of God to the Church your aunswere is that the dout is not there but to know which is the true Church For the third point where the Doctors allege that it maie be inferred that particular menne cannot erre the consequence is nothing woorthe bicause the Sprite of God maye sommetime departe from menne in whiche case they maye faile and erre as Dauid confesseth did happen to him To the fourthe pointe the Ministers aunswere that they impugne not in any sorte the Article alleaged of their confession bicause the Aunswere
Neuers made request that after their Obiections and Aunsweres they would procéede to Resolution on both sides touching the conference the day before According to which motion the Doctors say that to iudge of a Booke whether it be written of the holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a Canonicall Booke from an Apocriphal or Ecclesiastical we must not rest vpon a priuate or particulare inspiration because a singulare persone can not haue any ordinarie certaintie that it is a true Reuelation of the holy spirite but stay vpon the common consent and accorde of the vniuersal churche And also that God notwithstanding he might haue reuealed to euery one the true knowledge necessary to saluation yet he hathe ordained a certaine meane to attaine to faithe which is a truthe reuealed meaning by the hearing of Gods woord preached by lawfull ministers sent by the pastors of the true churche as appeareth by the â—exte of S. Paule to the Romaines .10 and Ephes 4. So that if they meane to haue faithe and inwarde Reuelation of the knowledge of saluation come by the hearing of Gods woorde lawfully preached by the ministers of the same according to the ordinarie meane of assurance that we haue the inwarde Reuelation it must necessarily be assured that the woorde by which faithe is gotten hath bene preached by the lawfull ministers of the true church so by consequence be assured of the church afore the inward Reuelation obseruing the meane which Iesus Christe folowed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inwarde Reuelation is when it is referred to the common consente of the church And that of the contrary euery preteÌ„ded inward inspiration particulare or priuate is a false persuasion if it differ from the common accorde of the churche for Gods spirite is not particulare but common They say also that to take a false Doctrine we must examine it to know whether it be priuate or common like as our Lord in S. Iohn 8. hathe giuen a true marke saying Qui de se loquitur mendatium loquitur he that saith any thing of himselfe and his proper inspiration is a lier In like sorte it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man Prophecie against the Prophetes of Israel which Prophecie say to suche as Prophecie in their heart heare the woorde of the Lorde So saithe the Lord cursse be vpon the false Prophets who follow their spirite and haue seene nothing And a little after they sée vaine things and a Diuination ful of dreames saying the Lord saythe and the Lord sent them not and yet they haue giuen assuraunce to confirme the woorde of their Prophesie which false Prophets said they had 〈◊〉 inwarde Reuelation and the woorde of God. They woulde also that it be well wayed and considered that the stay of religion grounded and assured vppon an inwarde inspiration is the foundation of many sectes of our time as Anabaptistes and Swinfeldiens who lay their Doctrines vpon priuate â—â—â—elations alleaging proper places to serue them as a grounde of their Doctrine which the ministers inferred yesterday as Ieremie in the .3 Chap. Ioel. 2. and S. Paule 1. Cor. 2. The which being considered by Brentius and Bucer they haue confessed that by the only tradition of the church we were ascertained of the Bookes of the holy scripture according to the Doctrine of the auncientes as S. Ierome who confesseth to haue receiued by tradition of the churche and by the same to haue knowne that there be foure gospels Origen also saithe asmuch who reciting the Canonical Bookes of the newe Testament saith I haue learned by tradition that there be foure gospels neither is there fouÌ„d any auncient catholike that hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of Bookes vpon his only priuate and particulare inspiration And S. August lib. confess ca. 25 â—seth these woordes Veritas tua Domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admouensne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur ca. And touching the Bookes of the olde Testament whiche the Ministers will not receiue as Canonical by the iudgement of their inwarde Reuelation the Doctors auouche that before S. Augustines time or at the least in his time in the vniuersall churche all the Bookes contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued as Canonicall according to the testimonie of the Councel of Carthage where S Augustine was present and also the Councell Laodicene the Doctors also saie that if by inwarde inspiration we must iudge of Bookes the Fathers that assisted those Councels had it or at leaste might persuade them selues to haue it with more assurance than many others But where the Ministers saie that by theire inwarde Reuelation they iudge that they are not Canonicall 〈◊〉 Doctors referre to iudgemente who oughte soonest to bâ—â—â—â—eued either the inspiration of the Auncientes receiued by the Churche by so many hundred yeres vntil this time or the priuate and particulare inspiration of the newe Ministers They saie further that they offer to proue that the Aunciente Fathers euen suche as wâ—â—e neare the Apostles time as Irenaeus S. Cyprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others vse testimonies of Bookes reiected by the Ministers euen in the proofe of the Doctrine against Heretikes yea S. Augustine him selfe in the seconde Booke of Christian Doctrine Chap. 2. puttes all those Bookes amongeste the Canonicalles as also Damascene in the fourthe Booke De Orthodoxa Fide Chap. 18. So that to knowe if a man haue the spirite of God to discerne and iudge of the Bookes of the Scripture it behooues to reste vpon the common consente and accorde of the Churche as being the ordinarie meane of God lefte for that effecte experience also whiche maie be made is a sufficiente Argumente to conuince that the Faithfull by the inwarde inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall Bookes from the pretended Apocryphall which mighte be easily verefied if there were here at this presente euen somme of the Religion pretended reformed to whom not hauing bene as yet instructed in the diuision of Bookes if those Bookes were presented whiche the Ministers holde for Apocryphal they would not distinguish them in any sort from the other Bookes of the holy Bible And vpon all they conclude that if a man haue Goddes sprite c. vt supra Aunswere Touching the firste Article the Ministers were neuer of opinion as appeares in their former aunsweres that their Religion was grounded vppon theire particulare Reuelations but vpon the woorde of God according as it is sette foorthe in the Writinges of the Prophetes and Apostles the truthe of whiche they saide was moste principally assured by the testimonie and Reuelation of the holy Sprite They saie also that Faithe is not the Truthe in proper speache but the persuasion of the Truthe whiche is taughte vs in the Scripture Like as also this Faithe is not of our owne getting but a pure
be broughte in by Caluin and his like to eschue confession that God is able to bring to passe that one body be in diuerse places and yet the proper text of the Scripture witnesseth that two bodyes may be by the power of God in one selfe place as also that one bodye hauing colour and afore visible by Goddes power is made inuisible without any let to the eies of suche as may sée the same being confirmed by S. Luke saying Aphantos egeneto apanton I nuisibilis factus est ab ipsis notwithstanding there were no more leâ—te of the parte of the Disciples For it is saide afore that theire eies were opened to know him Whereunto all antiquitie consentes The Doctours adde to confirme the penetration of the dimensions an other acte that our Lord mounted to the Heauens which he did neither diuide nor rent and therfore it must needes be that he penetrated them as the Scripture beares in proper termes The Doctoures signifie to the saide Ministers that they cannot produce one onely Anciente of sounde renowme hauing expounded these places of whom thei may learne their so many diuerse interpretations neither dothe it serue to colour their exposition the texte alleaged of the Actes of the Apostles where S. Peter went out of prison in which place is no speach at al of opening the doores of the said prison neither is it saide as in S. Iohn that the doores of the prison being shut S Peter came foorth but that the Aungell arriued there when the Garde before the doore watched the prison where they saye the doores were open to S. Peter it agreeth not with the opinion of S. Iohn that the doores were shutte when our Lorde entred The like reason alleaged by the saide Ministers of the fifth of the Actes is vnprofitable to this purpose aswell as the firste and for the same cause And to shewe clearely and euidentely that againste the naturall propertie of Bodyes God can make that a greate and grosse Bodye maye passe into a space and place inequall to his greatenesse largenesse and thickenesse The Doctoures haue recited that whiche our Lorde saithe in S. Mathewe 19. It is more easie that a Cable enter the eie of a Néedle than a Riche man into the Kingdome of Heauen whereunto the Ministers haue aunswered two things The one that in the inuolution we must not turne Cable but rather Camel notwithstanding their own french Bible of the impression of Antony Kebul which they haue brought conteineth the versioÌ„ of this word Cable like as also Caluin in his Harmony of the foure Euangelists saith it is the better Wherein may be séene and founde true that which Tertullian inueigheth againste the Valentinians and Irenaeus againste him in the firste Booke Chap. 14. that suche as are separated from vs to putte themselues in an other schoole deuise alwayes some new thing to the end the Disciples may be founde more able than the Maisters But be it that the woorde of Camel is graunted to them which the Doctoures doubte not hathe bene expounded by S. Hilarie S. Ierome others the reason is yet stronger For it is more vnlikely and repugnante that a crooked Camel grosse and greate enter the hole of a Néedle than a Cable The other reason giuen by the Ministers is that God maye bring to passe that a Camell or Cable enter the eie of a Néedle whiche is notwithstanding againste the pure woorde of Iesus Christe whiche saith It is not impossible to God to doo it but rather easie and by comparison more easie to God than to make a Riche man enter into the Kingdome of Heauen whiche our Lorde saithe notwithstanding to be possible not to men but to God to whom nothing is impossible whereupon the doctours saie that if God can doo that whiche is moste harde he maye doo that whiche is moste easie The texte of the Scripture importes that God may bring to passe that a rich man enter into the Kingdome of Heauen whiche is moste harde then he maye bring to passe that a Camell or Cable enter the eie of a Needle whiche is more easie The aunsweres of the Ministers here before confuted tend to these absurdities and blasphemies that Iesus Christ by his Omnipotencie could not enter throughe the doores being shutte that he coulde not issue out of the wombe of his Mother through her body without breaking that he could nor bring to passe that a body visible should be inuisible that a body greate and grosse coulde be in a place inequal to himselfe that he could by his Diuine power make penetration of the Dimensions and that he maye bring to passe by the same power Diuine that one body be in two places for it is al one reason of this laste Article and the others albeit such things are declared in the Scripture not onely possible but that the moste parte haue bene done And the Doctoures doe much maruell how the Ministers dare denie this séeing themselues must necessarily confesse if the Doctrine of the Supper which they giue be true that the bodye of Iesus Christe is in diuers places which they proue thus The faithfull receiue in their soules Really the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christe by the operation of the holy Ghost and not onely the bread and wine or the effecte and vertue of the same Sacrament as Calume saithe in his institutions lib. 4. cap. 17. sect 11. The Doctoures conclude thus it is impossible that a person receiue the substance of the body of Iesus Christ in himself but that the body of Iesus Christe must be in him All the Faithfull which be at the Supper receiue him in their soules so that it muste néedes be that the body of Iesus Christe be in them and by consequence in diuers places as euery where where their Supper is made and likewise in Heauen They say further that Caluine in his Institutions lib. 4. cap. 17. sect 24. mainteines that in the Supper the power of God is requisite to the ende the Fleshe of Iesus Christe penetrate into vs and that humaine nature can not comprehende that but néedes must Gods power woorke in it By which meane Caluine puttes by the power of God the Fleshe of Iesus Christe in many places as bothe in heauen and vs into whom he must penetrate by the power of God And in the .10 number he saithe that the truthe signified and represented by signes muste be represented and exhibited in the very place where the signes be which he proues by reason in many places that is that the signes must not be voide no more than the pilloure was voide of the holy spirite But euen as the essence and substance of the holy Ghoste was conioyned and present with the pilloure euen so that the Fleshe and Bloud of our Lord afore there was true Sacrament must néedes be knitte and vnited with the signes The places be against Heshusius and in his Booke of the Supper
1. Cor. Cap. 11. Whereunto howe so euer the Ministers Aunswere the Doctoures desire that the text of Caluine together with the reasons which he brings of the holy spirite may be well weighed and considered They Obiect further that the Ministers in their Supper attribute more to the humaine vertue than to the omnipotencie of God yea they doe more than God coulde doe as in that they vaunt to doe a thing by their Faith which implies contradiction saying in their Confession of Faithe exhibited at Poissi to the Bishoppes which were in the congregation that Faith makes things absent present at one instant in one place that is in the soules of the Faithfull when they make the supper the same being as much as if they had saide that faith makes things not present present in one time place so as to euery Faithful man in the Supper comming woorthily the Body of Iesus Christe is there present in vertue of Faith And yet is he not there present as themselues holde saying He is but in Heauen wherein maye be séene implication of contradiction that is presente and not presente Really neither can it serue to any purpose a little stippe or scape whiche they saide to vs that the body of Christe is on high corporally but in the hearts of the Faithfull in the supper spiritually For the spiritualitie can not take away the substance of the thing and their Faith can not bring to passe that a body is not a body and that a body hathe not his dimensions as they haue saide héere before Therefore in what sorte so euer they confesse that the Faithfull in the Supper receiue the substance of the body of Iesus Christe into their soules they muste necessarily and willingly confesse that either their Faithe is more mightie than the vertue and infinite power of God or else that God can bring to passe that his body shall be locally in Heauen and Sacramentally Really notwithstanding and substancially in the Sacrament of the Aultare in which pointe the Doctoures desire to heare the Ministers and after to sette downe their Aunswere by writing The Ministers can neuer shewe by the woorde of God that their Faithe can bring to passe that in one instant and in one place a thing shall be present and not present And it is as muche to say a thing present and not present by Faithe as to say the body of Iesus Christe is in a Faithfull man and is not Neither néede there to be put any chanell of the power of the holy Spirite to make the Fleshe of Iesus Christe slide from Heauen hither if the saide Fleshe were not but in Heauen and yet come to vs. And touching the poyntes which the Doctoures haue obiected that Peter Martyr and Theodore de Beza were the first that saide that God could not bring to passe that one body might be in two places which newe Doctrine the Ministers would confirme by antiquitie we not name it otherwayes than blasphemie The Doctors say that many times they haue prayed the ministers not to lose time to the end things might be better cleared to say nothing that were not to purpose which notwithstanding they alleage forthwith the testimonies of the fathers to shew that a body by nature is circumscript naturally can not be in many places but the same authors speake nothing that God is able to do it And yet S. Augustine and others in their places recited by the Doctors touching the Article of the doores being shutte witnesse that by the power of God two bodies may occupie one place which containes the like difficultie and when it comes to the profe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Christ they are to shew euidently that all the auncients wholly which haue spoken of the Sacrament haue not onely confessed hys abilitie to bring to passe that his body was on highe in heauen and héere belowe in the Sacrament but also they with one accorde haue aduouched to beléeue according to the woorde of Iesus Christe that he is in Heauen and heere in the Sacrament The Doctoures demaunde of the Ministers if any afore Peter Martyr and Theodore de Beza haue denyed this power of God whome they maruell not if they so muche magnifie séeing of them they haue taken all the places alleaged For the Article that begins where the Doctours pretende that the forme c the Doctoures say this forme is common as often as the power of God is debated vppon neither can she proofe be better guided than to folowe the woorde of the Aungell that there is nothing impossible to God From which when any thing is exempted there is alleaged the selfe same that the Ministers inferre that there is a repugnancie of things wherof folowes an implication of contradiction as did the auncient Heretikes against the Fleshe of Iesus Christe alleaging alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature doing the like againste the Article of Resurrection and Incarnation as if there had bene contradiction that God was man man was God As shall be easie to a wicked mind to forge alwayes some contradiction in his spirite according to the propreties of nature for the Article beginning wher the Doctors alleage that God can change c The Doctoures say they haue not well conceiued their meaning For they take for a thing absurde that a substance resting affected of his qualities may by Gods power haue effectes contrary to his qualities As if God coulde not bring to passe by his omnipotencie that the fire possessing his natural heat in place to burne do refreshe and qualifie which no man of sounde iudgement and a Christian would not denie For the Article touching the limitation of the povver c the Doctoures say it séemes by the Aunswere of the Ministers that Gods power is limitted according to his will which is as muche to say as God can not but that which he willes which is manifestly false Touching the Hebrue alleaged it séemes the Ministers haue desire to shewe their skill therein For suche recitall is nothing to purpose resting principally vpon the woorde danar which is as muche to say as a thing but it meanes not that we oughte to vnderstand it as a thing done the sense of the place is suche by the woorde shall any thing be hid from me And bicause harde things be hid and things impossible also more hid they haue therefore turned is there any thing hard or impossible to me which Pagninus and other interpreters of the Hebrue tonge shew well that the verbe Pala signifieth to hide The Doctoures had not made Aunswere to this but to make it knowne that they are not astonied at one woorde of Hebrue For the Article beginning touching the daunger c the Doctours say they are but woordes superfluous and what so euer the Ministers were able to produce others mighte vse againste them And where they say it is a reproche in that they
Ministers affirme that he doth it not and can not doe it bicause he vvill not for that according to Tertullian the power of God is his will. Touching the Doctoures reason of Philosophie to proue that a body in respecte it is a body forbeares not to be in diuers places the Ministers say that they suppose a false which is that the quantitie is accidentall and not essentiall to the body For that a body is measured limitted and circumscript is so of his essence that without it it is no more a bodie according to S. Augustines opinyon speaking euen of the bodie of Iesus Christe glorified that if they take from a bodie his space he hathe no more place where he can be and by Consequence being no where he is no more The reason of their Philosophie touching the firste Heauen not to be in any place the Ministers denie it seeing to vse the speache of the Scripture we must confesse that euen aboue the Heauens there is place As Christe saide to his Disciples I go to prepare you a place and in the very place in the house of my Father be many dwellings And in an other place There where I am taking the Present for the Future there shal be my seruaunte in whiche sentence wée muste obserue that there be Aduerbes of Place S. Augustine writing to Dardanus holdes expresse opinion that the Body of Iesus Christe must necessarily be in some place in Heauen bicause it is a true Body Besides in the number of the erroures heretofore condemned by the facultie of Paris it is said expressely that the Heauen called by them Empyreum is the place of Angelles of happy Soules and Humaine bodyes glorified Touching that whiche the Doctours pretende that by the Ministers Doctrine mainteining that a Bodye cannot be without place nor in many places at one instante maye be inferred that they blaspheme the power of god The Ministers of the contrary saie that the Doctoures blaspheme his Maiestie whiche they diminishe as giuing to the Creature that which belongs to him alone that is to be incircumscript as appeareth by Dydimus in his Booke of the Holy Ghoste where he proues that the Holy Sprite is God and not a Creature bicause it is circumscripte and all creatures necessarily are circumscripte and lymited The same resembling also the opinions of S. Basile Vigilius and the Maister of Sentences in the firste Booke Where they confesse that the Ancientes happy Sprites are circumscript albeit they are not corporal Bodyes they reason directely againste themselues and properly to proue our opinion heretofore of Bodyes whiche is that it cannot be but in what place so euer they are they are circumscripte For by an argumente of the Lesse to the More if the Aungelles whiche haue no Dimension nor measure be by their confession necessarily circumscripte as being creatures by greater reason the bodyes of men which be Creatures and measured muste be so And where they alleage that the Auncientes haue not saide that a Body by the power of God cannot be in diuers places that impugnes S. Augustine in his 30. Treatise vpon S. Iohn which is recited de Consec Distinct a. C. Prima quidem where speaking of the body of Christe he saith precisely that the Bodye of our Lorde wherewith he rose againe muste be in one place teaching thereby that at one time it cannot be in diuerse places And touching their reason taken of the Sacramente to enforce and proue their saying the Ministers aunswere that the Angelles neuer vnderstood nor saide that the body of Iesus Christe was in Heauen and in the Sacramente in one self sort maner nor that he was in the Sacrament otherwayes than sacramentally And where they pretend to proue in their resolution that the Angels may in one instant be in diuerse places whē we vnderstande their reasons they shal be aunswered Their speache deliuereth absurditie to saie that a Bodye being dispoiled of his Dimensions forbeares not for all that to be a Body For if it happened that a substance Corporall were wholy dispoiled of his dimēsions it should be no more a Body but a substance not Corporal of like nature to the Aungelles and Sprites And albeit God by his power may separate the Dimensions of a substance withoute corrupting it yet it cannot be but they muste be separated from a Bodye without corrupting the same bicause the Qualitie and Dimensions be Accidentes of the Substance but not of the Body which cannot subsiste without them bicause they are of his proper Essence And where the Doctours inferre after in their obiection that the weight in a body is a thing essential the Ministers denie it and by this reason if it were of the Essence of the Bodye the Bodye failing it muste also cease to be And yet we sée that the Body of Iesus Christ glorified to the which the bodyes of all the Electe shal be conformed after the Resurrection dothe not forbeare to be and subsiste albeit at this daye it be exempt from al weightinesse Touching theire moste strong and mighty Argumente that if twoo Bodyes maye be together in one place one body may also be in diuers places at one instant the Ministers withoute graunting their Antecedente saie theire Consequence vnder correction is not good as the Argumente it selfe is moste weake Adding this further that the Doctoures neither haue proued nor euer can proue by Scripture nor any Authoritie of the Auncientes no nor any sufficiente Reason that either the matter of theire Antecedente or the Consequence they inferre vppon it are true Where the Doctoures to proue that twoo bodyes may be together in one place alleage scripture that Christe entred the house where his disciples were the doores being shutte the Ministers aunswere that it is not written that he entred by the doores shutte but onely the doores being shutte whiche the Aunciente Interpreter hath giuen well to vnderstande expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn where standes mention of the matter afore recited Cum Fores essent clausae When the doores were shutte came Iesus c. Yet the Ministers saie they beleue and are assured of the cleare opinion of the Scripture that the doores being shutte he came and stoode in the middest of his Disciples But that it cannot be defined nor determined whiche waye he entred whether throughe the Walles or by the Gates of Woode whiche S. Hilarie him selfe puttes in doubte in his place alleaged by the Doctours what soeuer it be the Ministers say that in entring he made his way myraculously the one body whether it were the wood or the wal made place to the body of Iesus Christ entring or that an opening was made to him by the Aungel who opened shut the doores againe in a moment as hath bene said before But in what fashion so euer it was done two bodyes were neuer founde together in one selfe place Touching that they alleage of S. Augustine in his Booke de Agone Christiano
of heauens whē Christ moūted thither the Ministers answer that it is likely they did diuide were open as at the baptisme of our Sauiour Christ the piller discended vpon him also when S. Stephen was stoned Touching that they reprehend in the first answere of the Ministers that in the 12. chap. of the Actes there is no mention made of the opening of the prison the Ministers referre them to reade the text of the said place diligently where thei find that after he had passed the first second watch the last gate of the prison which was of yron opened of it selfe to the Angel and S. Peter to make them place Where the doctors reply vpon the Ministers answere to the argument of the Camel inferred in their first answere the Ministers auouch the integritie of their said answere as to conteine nothing against Gods woorde but say that they are beguiled as referring that to the Camel which ought not to be vnderstande but of the saluation conuersion of Riche men only wherof was mention made before for our Lorde Iesus Christ in saying that that which is impossible to men is possible to God pretends no other thing thā to answer to the question proposed by his disciples which is who might be saued whereunto he answered that that truely was impossible to men who of them selues are inclined to truste in theire Riches but it was possible to God as to be able to drawe theire hartes from that vaine confidence Touching the argumente which they would ground vppon the presence of Iesus Christe in the Supper which thei would inferre to be in diuerse places the Ministers confesse the Antecedent and denie the Consequence For they haue no doubte but by faithe our Lorde Iesus Christe is spiritually present in the Supper to all the Faithful by which wée must not inferre that he is there Locally Diffinitiuely or Corporally which where they say it is not imaginable the Ministers auowe it as in regarde of suche as are not taught and lightened by the Sprite of God and haue no other imagination than that which their natural facultie giues them But to such as being lighted by Gods grace haue a true and liuely faith in their hartes it is no more impossible to represent vnto them Iesus Christe crucified in the Supper than it was to the Galatheans to represent and repose him vnto them as present and visible in the preaching of S. Paule and to those likewise of whom S. Cyprian makes mention in his Sermon of the Supper that in celebrating it they embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christe sucke his Bloud and fixe their tongue within his woundes all which things are done by liuely contemplation and apprehension of Faithe which is no other thing than a subsistaunce of things hoped for and a demonstration of suche as are inuisible as S. Paule defines it Touching the truth of the thing conioined with his signes and Sacramentes the Ministers confesse that outwarde signes are neuer withoute their effecte on the behalfe of the Faithful who cannot participate with the Bread and Wine distributed in the Supper but foorthwith they participate with the Fleshe of Iesus Christe crucified for their sinnes and with his Bloud shedde to ratifie the newe Allyaunce which God hath made with his people But if the Doctours would inferre thereupon a Corporal Presence in the Supper the Ministers would denie it and that by this reason that such presence was not required of the ancient Fathers who notwithstanding did not forbeare to eate one selfe same foode with al the faithful of this day as with the helpe of God shall be more amplie declared when it pleaseth the Lord of Neuers to commaund conference of that matter Where the Doctours reproching the Ministers say that they attribute to themselues humaine power more than to the power of God as saying that by Faithe they make present things that are absent seeing God according to the doctrine of the ministers can not bring to passe that one body be in diuers places at one instant The sayd Ministers Aunswere that suche Antithesis are foolish and not to purpose and that there is farre greater likelihoode that the Doctors presume more of their power and the other Bishops of the Romishe churche than of the power of God For God hath not created by his woorde but heauen earthe and the other creatures contained therein and they in their creation attribute to themselues the power to Create their Creator as appeareth in their Breuiarie where the Priest sayth qui creauit me creatur mediante me The Ministers also do greatly maruell that the Doctors cal the vertue of Faith humaine power séeing the great and wonderful effectes of the same reuealed to vs in so many Examples of the Scriptures specially in the eleuenth to the Hebrues where S. Paule saythe that the holy ones by Faithe haue vanquished kingdomes c. All which things doe not surmount the vertue only but also the capacitie of humaine vnderstanding The Doctors replie that foloweth this Article containes but numbers of vnprofitable and superfluous woordes and but little or nothing of necessary matter And that the ministers haue more particularely Aunswered to euery pointe which they repeate they sende them eftsoones to the former aunsweres with this request not to serue them hence forewarde with one messe twice Touching the sacrament of the Altare as they call it the ministers neither receiue nor approue in any sort that their Masse which they pretend to be a sacrament is a sacrament and muche lesse a sacrifice by the which remission of sinnes may be any way obtained yea they say that both the sacrificature and sacrifice by them pretended with all things depending theruppon be blasphemies and impieties by which God is dishonored all the benefites of Iesus Christe buried and Christes church seduced and abused as shall clearely appeare by the pursute of the conference Neither doe the Ministers corrupt in any sort either the sense or woords which Iesus Christ vsed in the Institution of the holy supper The Replie or Obiection of the Doctoures against the Aunsvvere of the Ministers touching the Article of Gods omnipotencie being on Saterday the xx of Julie THe Doctoures say that this consequence God can not bring to passe of his omnipotencie that one body be in two places at one instante and therfore he is not almightie is so good strong that the Ministers can not any way denie it without falling more and more into execrable blasphemies to the great gréefe and horroure of the said Doctoures wherin besides the two blasphemies which they maintaine in their former Answeres that it is impossible to God to make a body be in two places as also impossible to him to will to doe it in this first Article of their last Answer they bring forthe foure or fiue other blasphemies wheron do hang also diuers others bisides the absurdities falshoodes imputations which they haue heaped vpon the Doctors in the
weighty remaining in his substance and natural heauinesse coulde not by Goddes almightinesse be suspended on highe but that it must encline downwaede notwithstanding it were against his nature and inclination For the rest touching the answere to many Articles concerning twoo bodyes to be in one place and the places of Holy Scripture and Anciente Authoures produced by the Doctours to proue that it was in Goddes power to make twoo bodyes to be in one onely place and by the like reason that it was also in the same power to bring to passe that one body of the contrary be in twoo places we saie for the firste that the Ministers doo wrong to denie this Consequence twoo bodyes maie be in one place by Goddes power then of the contrary one bodye by the same power maye be in twoo places for there is asmuche repugnancie of Goddes order established in the one as in the other and no lesse contradiction in nature grounded vpon one cause and reason which is in the lymitation and circumscription of a bodye to the whiche as it is naturall to be in place so is it natural to him to be in place proportioned and corespondent to his dimensions And if for the number of diuerse places where one body were it might be inferred that it were no more a body as implying contradiction euen by the same reason according to one onely place where were many bodyes it coulde not be inferred that they were no more bodyes than many bodyes were one whiche woulde implie like contradiction to the firste And where the Ministers denie the Antecedent which is that twoo bodyes maye be in one place we haue produced to proue it the text of the doores being shut the byrth of the body of our Lord of the Virgyn the comming out of the Sepulcher the passage of a Camell through the creuis of a Néedle the penetration of the heauens which Iesus made at his Ascension and bicause they deny these doings conteined expressely in the holy scripture interpreted by the ancient Christians depraue it at their pleasure the Doctoures auouch againe vpon the textes of those Scripture as foloweth Firste touching the doores shutte S. Iohn saithe that Iesus is come He meanes to the place where his Disciples were neither came he thither without entring for that wer a more greate myracle to be in the middest of them without entring than to enter there simply In the seconde place it is saide â—um fâ—res essent clausa or tanuis clausis which is to say He entred the doores being shutte neither dothe it appeare that the Scripture makes mentioÌ„ rather of the doores than of an other place but to shewe on what part he entred Thirdly the Scripture addes not in vaine that the doores were shut without saying that any opening was made myraculously for it is alwaies saide â—â—od venit tanuis clausis And if it were true that the doores had bene opened by Diuine vertue it shoulde be false that our Lorde entred tanuâ—s â—â—rsisâ— for then shoulde he haue entred tanuis apertis by what meanes so euer they had bene opened And to declare that the common consent of all the Auncientes hathe bene that Iesus entred by the doores shutte the Doctoures preferre foure fundations drawne cute of the Auncientes In the firste they all confesse expressely that the myracle of the entring was made in the Bodye of Iesus Christe The seconde that suche myracle was done aboue the nature of the Bodye by the vertue of god The thirde is that expressely the Auncientes iudge that in that did consiste the myracle that the bodye passed throughe the doores shutte and was so with an other body And for the fourth fundation they adde that in regarde of suche an entring the Apostles taught that the bodye of Iesus was no true bodye but a Sprite or Vision whiche the Ministers passe lightely withoute aunswere But if it be so that by Goddes power as the Ministers holde there was made an opening either by the doores or other parte of the house to giue entring to the bodye of Iesus Christe then the myracle shoulde not consiste in the saide Bodye but in the doores or other parte of the house whiche were opened and yet there was nothing contrarie to the nature of the Bodye of our Lorde for it resistes not any Bodye what so euer it be to enter by an opening made by myracle or otherwayes Be it that Iustine is not the Authour of the Questions againste the Gentiles yet it cannot be denyed that they were not of some Aunciente Christians of the Primitiue Churche And the Doctoures haue attributed them to him on whose name they be entituled onely the saide Iustine in the place alleaged makes the myracle to haue passed in the Bodye of Iesus Christe whiche being grosse and thicke entred throughe the shutte doores againste the nature of a Bodye by the power of God and therefore the Apostles estéemed it to be a Vision by reason of an entry made withoute opening as Sprites are woonte to enter Sée the Texte S. Hilary dothe not onely saie that he entred by the Omnipotencie of God in what sorte so euer it be as the Ministers séeke to turne and wrest his authoritie but as one that had euen nowe to doo with the Ministers he repulseth and scoffes at al their euasions subtilties whiche they contriue of this dooing He saithe that nothing gaue place to make opening to suche a bodye neither loste he any thing of his substance nor to enter was in nothing diminished He addes that the doores and all other openings were closed and faste barred and yet in this lyeth the myracle that the true naturall body of Iesus Christe againste his nature by the Omnipotencie of God entred a house faste closed and couered without any opening by whiche he shewes apparantly that the myracle consisted in the Body of Iesus Christe Herein we referre to the texte which we desire to be wel examined by the Ministers S. Ambrose in the place recited saith that S. Thomas was abashed when he sawe the Bodye of Iesus Christe enter Per inuia septa corporibus quod natura corporea per impenitrabile Corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu S. Chrysostome in the Homilie of S. Iohn Baptiste and in his Commentaries vppon the Gospell of S. Iohn saithe expressely Qui intrauit per ostia clausa non erat Phantasma non erat Spiritus verè corpus erat Quid enim dicitis respicite videte quia Spiritus carnem ossa non habet quae me habere videtis Habebat carneÌ„ habebat ossa clausa eraÌ„t omnia Quomodo clausis ostijs intrauerunt ossa caro clausa sunt omnia intrat quem intrantem non vidimus Nescis quomodo factum sit das hoc potentiae Dei Where without difficultie S. Chrysostome as also S. Ambrose confesse the myracle to be done in the Body of Iesus Christe in that he passed through
God Almighty as being able without exception to doo what so euer he will and that there is no power neither in Heauen nor Earthe which may hinder change or delay in any sort the effect and perfecte execution of his eternal and immoueable councelles yet his Omnipotencie ought not to be stretched without discretion or distinction to all things generally that men maye conceiue and imagine in their fonde fansies but to those onely whiche neither are nor can be contrary to his iustice bountie wisedome nor by consequence againste his holy and eternall will wisedome and truthe which is and shal be for euer to doo al things wel and wisely with number weight and measure without any iniquitie disorder or contradiction in any thing he doothe All whiche things being well vnderstande and considered are able to cleare the Ministers to all indifferent people of the slaunderous imposition of the Doctours raised and falsly pronounced by them to make vs hateful to the worlde And to proue it by degrées and set a truth of their slaunders they chaunge and alter almoste al the speaches of the Ministers either by additions or retractions as knowing that without that policie they were without meane both to grounde their saide reproches and giue them any colour of likelyhoode whiche shal nowe appeare by the deduction and particulare confutation of their pretended blasphemies against vs. Firste they accuse vs as to haue saide that Gods Omnipotencie oughte not to be measured but by the onely things which are conformable to his will and not to derogate his wisedome his truthe his nature or the order which he hath established in the worlde Wherein to verifie their accusation and slaunder they choppe and hacke this sentence taking the laste parte of it onely whiche they haue separated from the rest and which the Ministers had limit to the whole for a more expresse and cleare declaration howe Goddes Almightinesse ought to be knowne beleued and woorshipped of al the worlde neither haue they vnderstande the terme of order according to the sense and meaning of the Ministers who signifie thereby the estate and disposition whiche God hath established conserues and enterteines in all things by his eternall prouidence and immoueable will onely to intercept that no confusion happen in his workes according to the Diffinition of S. Augustine in his Bookes de Ordine and himselfe hathe vsed in the fifth Booke of his Confessions the which being not vnderstande by the Doctours they haue translated the opinion of the Ministers to the ordinary and accustomed course of Nature and to the mouing of the creatures whiche be in this worlde Wherein to procure a more exception to the Doctrine aforesaide they obiecte the myracles that God did aboue nature inferring thereby that God doothe and maye doo againste his Order established To the whiche the Ministers aunswere that albeit the myracles be done ouer and aboue the ordinary course of nature yet they are not done contrary to the Order aforesaid bicause al things referred to the prouidence and ordinaunce of God be well done and rightely disposed notwithstanding theire reason and Order be many times vnknowne to men according to the opinion of Salomon God doothe all things in their time to the whiche maye be appropriate a testimonie out of the Sentences of S. Augustine 283. and 284. God who is the Creatour and Conseruer of Natures doothe nothing in his myracles contrary to nature Neither doothe it followe that that whiche is newe in custome is contrary to reason c. whereof if the Doctours will knowe further lette them reade the seconde Booke made by the saide Holy Personage of the Order and likewise what he writes of the myracles in the fifth and sixth Chapter of the thirde Booke of the Trinitie This aunswere may suffise to confute the twoo other pretended blasphemies which folowe in the obiection of the Doctours And touching the fourth wée aunswere that the will of God maye be considered in twoo sortes as the Diuines teache which is as it is declared to men by woordes signes and effectes and according as it is retained and hidde in himselfe the one is called Wil knowne by signes and the other the Will of the good pleasure of god For the regarde of the firste consideration the Ministers confesse as heretofore they haue said to the doctors that God can doo many things which he wil not But to the other we saie his wil is equal with his power as also his power in that regard is equal to his wil According to which consideration ought to be vnderstanded and interpreted the sentence of Tertullian alleaged by vs and euill applied by the Doctours to the Monarchians as beste may iudge all suche as heedefully reade that place produced by vs who to aunswere an other reproche of the saide Doctoures accusing vs of wrong to the Auncientes as to accepte some matter of the Omnipotencie of God are here enforced to reiterate Theodorete in his thirde Dialogue who writes as foloweth Wée muste not saie without some determination that all things are possible to God for who so holdes suche absolute opinion comprehendes all things aswell good as euill whiche oughte not in any sorte be attributed to God. By whiche maye appeare that neither this good Authour nor the others before alleaged by vs woulde not submitte all things indifferently to Goddes power But doo excepte what so euer is contrary to his will and essence To be shorte to qualifie the difference betwéene the Ministers who holde it impossible one body to be in diuerse places at one instant and the Doctours which affirme the contrary there is but one meane which is that the Doctours without entring into so long a circuit and wasting of speache in alleaging so many superfluous matters doo proue summarily by one onely place of the Scripture that God wil doo it To knowe whether the Ministers haue wel or euil alleaged S. Augustine as to proue that a body cannot be withoute place and measures and also whether they haue well or euill defended that the Quantity is essential in a body and not accidental as the Doctours holde they laie themselues vppon the vpright iudgement of the Readers of the Acts of this conference Touching that which foloweth in the writing of the Doctours that there is no place aboue the Heauens wherein Iesus Christ is not comprehended conteined that the Bodies and Sprites are therein differently without any distinction and distaunce of place The Ministers saie that touching all those pointes they rather beleue the Scripture expresse woorde of God which they haue alleaged than all the suttleties and Sophistries which the Doctoures or others are able to bring foorthe of their vaine Philosophy Besides the same is expressely conteined and taught in one of the Articles of our faithe in this phrase From thence shal he come to iudge both the quicke the deade By whiche muste be noted that there is Vnde which is an Aduerbe signifying
place Touching the fourth and fifth Articles to know whether the Ministers haue imposed any vntruth vpon the Doctors they send the Readers to the actes of the former conference as also to learne in what sense and to what ende the Ministers haue alleaged the Ancients which they may more easily perceiue by the reading and diligent obseruation of theire places and sentences there inferred Touching the sixth Article wherin the Doctours had rather confesse their Canons to be false than in deferring the authoritie of the same to auowe the body of Iesus Christ to be true and being true that it is necessary that it be in one certaine place the Ministers answere that by the obseruation of S. Augustines place from whence is taken the saide Canon it is easie to iudge that the terme Oportet is muche more conuenient there than this woorde Potest To the eighth Article the Ministers answere that a substance without quantitie neither is or can be any waie a body whilest it is and remaines so and the reason is bicause they are twoo diuers predicaments that of the substance that of the quantitie vnder the which one selfe thing for one selfe respecte cannot be in any sorte comprehended Besides Christe alleageth no other reason to declare his body was not a sprite but that he had members and partes which bicause of their measures mighte be handled and touched Wherupon it foloweth that without that a substance can not be a body And touching the difference that shuld rest according to the opinion of the Doctors betwéene our soules and bodies exempt from quātitie if the same were possible we say that albeit they were substaunces different bothe in number and species yet they shuld be like touching genus and that bothe the one and other should be contained vnder the kinde of substance not corpored The ministers passe ouer the ninthe Article as a matter but of repeticion of woordes and sufficiently aunswered alreadie Touching the tenth Article we say in the first place that the consequence whereof there is Question can not otherwayes be defended by the Doctoures than by the rule that saithe of one absurditie may be inferred all things we complaine bisides of the time which the Doctoures make vs lose in the reading of so many matters already aunswered and which seeme so often repeated by them for none other ende than to fill paper and persuade the world that they do something For in the first place the Euangelist saithe not as the Doctoures pretend that Christe entred not by the shutte doores but only that he came the doores being shutte so that he speakes not there in any sort of the manner of his entrie nor how the doores were opened nor yet of any other parte of the house by the which he entred And as al the sayings of the doctors cannot be founded neither on the scripture nor any authoritie of the Auncients by them alleaged who stand rather againste than with them So for conclusion they haue no other ground of their opinion than their singulare coniectures and imaginations wyth sinister interpreting the wrytings of the Auncients to whose Faith they would constraine and assubiect the Church to the ende that hauing laid this foundation they may builde afterwardes thereupon all their absurdities and erroures which they meane to deduce And where they presupposed that when Iesus entred the doores shut when he walked vpon the waters and came out of his graue those miracles were done rather in his person than in other things Iustine wrytes the contrary that without any mutation happening in his body nor in the body of S. Peter he brought to passe by his diuine vertue that the Sea againste his nature serued him as a way As also S. Hillarie saith to the same respecte that by his power he did all things passible with whom S. Iohn Chrysostome consents as attributing all that to a power Diuine and confessing frankely that he was ignorant of the manner and fashion thereof By meane wherof the Ministers maruell much of the presumption of the Doctors to offer to determine a thing left indecided by the scripture the Auncients and touching the which according to the wise opinion of S. Hillarie bothe the sense and the woorde do faile and the truthe of the facte excéedes the capacitie of humaine reason How then dare the Doctors say so impudently that Christes body passed thorowe the doores that there was penetration of Dimensions and that two bodies were in one place séeing that of all this there is not one only sillable either in the scripture or witnessed by the Auncientes who confesse as is saide that their vnderstandinge and senses were to weake to comprehend or declare the reason of suche a Misterie Touching the birthe of Iesus Christe the ministers stand vpō the scripture whose cleare opinion is that the virgin was bigge bellied shée broughte foorthe and was deliuered shée gaue sucke and that in the deliuery aperta est vulua And yet dothe none of all this derogate or preiudice the state of hir Virginitie or integritie the same consisting in thys one pointe that shée neither knewe nor was knowne of any man. Wée say moreouer that in beléeuing this we folowe the scripture and by consequence can not erre nor be Heretikes neither likewise any other that assubiecte their sense to Gods woorde as the Auncientes by vs alleaged haue done in this In the Article folowing proponed by the Doctoures touching the manner of Christes Resurrection it containes nothing but coniectures and reproches with superfluous and weary repeticions which we haue already satisfied at the full by our former Aunsweres And what so euer folowes after in the writings of the Doctoures are but wrongs and iniuries in place of reasons and argumentes the same being the laste shifte of contencious wittes who being destitute of reason and not able to yelde to truthe defende themselues with clamoures and sinister impositions The Doctoures had some reason in their interpretation of the woorde Aphantos if there folowed autois but the Euangeliste saithe apantoin shewing clearely that the interpretation of the said place and vnderstanding of S. Ambrose in which the ministers do settle is better than the exposition of the Doctoures Touching the opening of the Heauens we Aunswer that they coulde not faile vsing the phrase of the Scripture who saithe clearely that at the Baptisme of Iesus Christe the Heauens were deuided and open when S. Stephen was stoned And as we take it for an imagination of man to applie to the aire the signification of the Heauen So we thinke it should be to diminishe the maiestie of God and Iesus Christ raised aboue all the Heauens to establishe the throne of his Maiestie so lowe as in the aire Neither is there any resemblaunce or likelihoode in the saying of the Doctoures touching the being of two bodyes in one place and the persuasion of the Ministers of the sighte of S. Stephen which stretched euen to the Heauens
in the scripture it is spoken of the Diuinitie aswel as when there is speach of the Humanitie of Iesus Christ Where the Ministers say wée confesse our Canons to be false it is a manifeste slaunder For wée acknowledge no Canons if they deriue not from the Councelles and other Authentike Bookes and not as they are gathered by any particulare man as is the Compilation of Gratian to whom there is no further faith giuen than he deserues that is recited by him For Resolution of the eighth Article wée sende the Ministers to the Phisophers Schole to learne that there is in the Predicament of substaunce a Body whiche is Species of Substance and in the predicament of Quantitie an other body which is Species of quantitie and also to learne that the body which is of quantitie is Accidental and not essentiall to the body of the predicament of substance Besides the Ministers erre againste all Philosophie to call a Substance materiall incorpored But the Doctours wil not stande vpon those things and are sory they haue not to doo with men better principled in Philosophy who would 〈…〉 â—son than the Ministers doo 〈…〉 Consequence of twoo Bo◠〈…〉 be in twoo pla◠〈…〉 â—nd like in◠〈…〉 â—e if the 〈…〉 the 〈…〉 passion they woulde examine the testimonies of the Auncientes and reasons drawne from the same But by this wée proue that when there is any thing that presseth the Ministers it is then they sette a good countenaunce and make shewe to haue good righte Besides the Doctoures maruell muche howe the Ministers dare affirme that Iustine and all the Auncientes haue not put the myracle of the doores in the body of Iesus Christ séeing Iustine makes this expresse question howe it is possible that a body grosse be not let to passe throughe the doores shutte in the answere of which question they conclude it that bicause that myracle was done in the nature of the Bodye of Iesus Christe the Apostles iudged it was not a true Body but a Sprite As if the Body had bene transnatured into a sprite which Iustine saith did not happen but that withoute any chaunge of nature suche operation to passe throughe the doores shutte was giuen to the Bodye of Iesus Christs by the Omnipotencie of God as also Iustine saithe not that anye myracle was done in the Sea when Iesus walked thereuppon but that by the Almightinesse that was in him he made it portable without chaunge of the nature of his Bodye or of the Sea notwithstanding the myracle was in his Bodye whiche contrary to his nature did so walke It is not inoughe to alleage S. Hylarie that the power of God made place to the Bodye of our Lorde for he doothe not onely auouche that but addes the manner of the facte whiche is that the Bodye passed withoute chaunge or diminishing his nature or withoute any opening And yet notwithstanding he passed by the operation of the Omnipotencie whiche wroughte in his Bodye piercing the close and shutte places Nihil inquit cessit ex solido Parictum with other like speache whiche he vseth by which cannot be vnderstand any other thing than a penetration of many Bodyes S. Chrysostome disputes expressely that contrary to his nature he passed through the doores shutte aswell as out of the belly of the Virgyn without breaking neither dothe he saie simply that he is ignorante wherein consisted the facts séeing he discribes it but he amplifieth the vertue of the facte and saith that the reason and greatnesse cannot be comprehended bicause it procéeded of the power of God incomprehensible Touching al which pointes the Doctours referre themselues to the reading of the Bookes without any further debate against the Ministers who thinke alwayes to abuse the ignorance of suche as beleue them to denie or affirme what they thinke good And as we gréeue and are weary to reiterate the reasons herebefore so familiarely and clearely deduced so by the euasions of the Ministers so often repeted we are enforced eftsoones to intrude that which by common consent of the Ancients they oughte to beleue touching the Articles We much maruel of the manner of Answeres of the ministers who without regard to the matter obiected to them say what they thinke good of the pointes proponed and not answere to the Argumentes as in the Article that toucheth the byrth of Iesus Christe in the deduction whereof wée haue brought foorth many testimonies of the Auncients holding that our Lord came myraculously from the belly of his mother as he was also conceiued Wherin as the said Ancientes affirme that that Natiuitie was done withoute any breaking to the body of the Virgyn so they condemned in Heresie al such as helde the contrary whiche the Ministers séeke yet to mainteine and for al their aunswere affirme it staying as they say vppon the Scripture and dare not openly say that they reiect the iudgementes of the Aunciente and Primitiue Churche to repose vpon theire owne sense which notwithstanding appeares clearely inough in theire Answere vpon this Article wherein they falsely apply the Scripture as thoughe it conteined that in the Byrth of our Lorde A perta fuerit vulua Virginis And where thei say that that disclesing impugnes not her Corporal Virginitie by which the question is mente they bely the Resolution of the Auncientes who haue determined vppon this matter In the Article of the resurrection whether there be other matters than coniectures the reading of the Obiection of the Doctors shall witnesse the same being to be séene of suche as desire to know the truthe And where vppon the ende of the Article of the Resurrection the ministers complaine that we lay wrongs and scoffes vppon them we doubte not but they take in displeasure that their suttleties and maners of doing are discouered which if they were well knowne the world woulde not be so simplie beguiled as héeretofore they haue bene The Resolution pretended by the ministers as being not written aphantos autois but apauton is not pertinent For be it in what sort so euer our Lord was inuisible to his Disciples whether it was by sodaine vanishing away or otherwayes the which vanishing in a body present at the eie not troubled can not be done but that the body is made inuisible to them And how so euer it be the Gréeke text beares inuisible and vnseene Touching the Article for the opening of the heauens the ministers according to their custome aunswer not directly For it is not saide that the Heauens were deuided or open when he mounted thither as in the baptisme of Iesus Christ and the vision of S. Stephen but the scripture saith expressely that Christe pierced the heauens and not that the heauens disclosed to him Neither can the ministers forbeare to reproche vs in deprauing the vnderstanding of our writings the same being witnessed in this present Aunswere wherin they faine to vnderstand that in that text of the scripture importing that Christ pierced the heauens we would signifie
the greatnesse of our God to maintein his woorkes incredible by nature which are comprehended in his woord in our Faith and also to confute all suche as woulde deny any of them as impossible to be done by any manner what so euer And bicause Caluin and Beza with their Ministers raise them selues against the power and greatnesse of our Lorde and openly deny him to be able to commit the body bloude of Iesus Christ vnder the formes of Breade and Wine and bicause also that in the Religion pretended reformed to resist the efficacy of the woorde This is my Body this is my Bloude they teach not a more great reason nor more familiare to al those that are out of the way than the impossibilitie of God to be able to make a body to be in twoo or many places that is to say in the Sacrament and in Heauen wée obiecte with good righte to the Ministers that in their Doctrine they derogate the firste Article of Faithe which is of the Almightinesse of god And also we knowe that the anciente manner of the Christians disputing againste the aduersaries of Faith was oftentimes to beginne to aske whether that whereon they doubted were possible to God or not or whether onely he woulde not doo it in which sorte and order Tertullian and others propone the pointes wherein they enter into contention againste the Heretikes In like sort afore we passe further into the matter of the holy SacrameÌ„t we would in preamble wise fele of the Ministers whether they iudged it to be in Goddes power to make a body occupy many places or whether only he would not c. wherein wée are enforced to aduertise al Christians of one manner of dealing common to al the Ministers of the pretended reformed Religion which is when they are asked if God can establish the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament or not they aunswere that there is no question of the power of God but of his Will onely And when wée produce matter which declares the will of God then of the contrary they deny that his wil is suche bicause it is impossible to him Alleaging here their contradictions according to the nature of the body And bicause they thinke this to be impossible in action they depraue and interprete the woorde of the Supper otherwayes than either it beares or is written Here is also to be noted that wherin an Almaine called Heshusius reprocheth Caluin that he his felowe Ministers are goodly noble amplifiers of the power of God but when it comes to the déede and pushe as the saying runnes they neither giue or graunte him any more than they thinke méete to introduce their errours and fansies resembling as the saide Almaine compares them a good Traitor who most dooth cherishe and magnifie a man when he is most ready to betray him as Iudas did our Lorde wherin wée are constrained to say of the Ministers touching Goddes Almightinesse as Tertullian saith of the Heretikes Credendo non credunt which is in beleuing the Omnipotencie they beleue it not for when they haue saide that there muste be no exception they hold againe an other way that it must not stretch to euery thing that mannes sprite can conceiue and so they will not apply it but to what they thinke good couering themselues with the nature wisedome eternal wil of God which are no lesse vnknowne and incomprehensible to them than his Omnipotencie in which respecte wee aduise euery one not to be abused with the speach of Caluin nor his ministers but to consider the woorkes which they deny to be in the power of god Wée haue produced to them these foure questions Whether God may make a body to be in twoo places and of the contrary twoo bodyes in one place Whether he can lodge one body in one space lesse than his greatnesse and whether he can make it inuisible which haue bene specially culled and chosen for that vpon them are founded the principal arguments of the pretended reformed Religion againste the true presence of the Bodye and Bloude of Iesus Christ in the Holy Sacrament Wée beleue simply as al other things that the foure questions are possible to God and haue proued it by the infinitie of his power both by the scriptures who giue vnto him al vertue ouer creatures without any exception and also by Examples and straunge myracles don vpon bodyes against their natures which are writteÌ„ as Tertullian holdeth in his Booke of the Resurrection to the ende wée beleue that our God is more mighty than al Lawe and nature of al bodyes whereunto he addes that such knowe God very euill who thinke that he hath not in his power things which thei cannot comprehende in their fansie From whence it comes as S. Cyril saith that such wicked sprites reiecte and condemne al things as impossible bicause they vnderstand them not Besides wée thinke wée haue sufficiently shewed no lesse by expresse scripture than by the Exposition of the same taken of the Ancient Christians that it was not only in Gods power to make twoo bodyes to be in one place and one body without place equall to his greatenesse but also that he had already truely done it in the byrth of the body of our Lorde Iesus Christe in the Resurrection of the same â—â—is entry throughe the doores shutte and in his Ascension aboue al the Heauens like as also wee haue deduced that there was equall and like repugnancy in those deedes as in the other of one body in twoo places whiche by the scripture is no more excepted from the power nor will of God than the others as to iudge it impossible to be done neither hath there bene any Christian afore our time which durst affirme the same to be impossible and out of the power of God notwithstanding the occasion was often offered if they had any waye estéemed it impossible as the Ministers of the supposed refourmed Religion pretende Of the contrary the most parte of the auncient Authours of the Primitiue Churche haue holden expressely that it was in Goddes power to bestowe a creature in many places according to S. Ieromes opinion againste the Heretike Vigilantius that the soules of the Sainctes maye assiste in many places with the immaculate Lambe our Sauiour Iesus Christe Yea there was question Whether the saide soules and sprites of the Holy ones did assiste at any time the Churches where their Graues and Monumentes were the same resembling with S. Augustine in his Booke whiche he wrote of the care to be had of the Dead Chapter 16. wher he saithe that by the power of theire nature the soules cannot be here belowe and in Heauen or in many places but that the same may be done by the power of God and he will not resolue whether they vnderstande our affayres by suche assistaunce in many places or by reuelation of the Aungels or other meane of the power and grace of God. Morouer it is
to him and yet notwithstanding he may be incircumscript For if it be necessary that the dimensions wherof he is composed be terminable it folowes then necessarily that he is termined limited and circumscript Afterwardes where they say that our reasons takeÌ„ of the Creede alleaged to proue that the body of Iesus Christe is in heauen in place certaine are friuolous we Answere that therein they shewe the reuerence they beare to the woorde of God and his holy spirite which hath reuealed it vnto vs and to his Apostles who haue pronounced it to vs. To iustifie Gratian and the Canon which we alleage of S. Augustine as prouing therby that the body of Iesus Christe muste necessarilye be in a certaine place Wée alleage againe for more ample confirmation the Maister of sentences Lib. 4. Distinct 10. who reciting the selfe same texte of S. Augustine vseth this verbe Oportet and not Potest Where the Doctours alleage Iustine to proue that the myracles which were done when Christ appeared in the middest of his Disciples the doores being shutte and when he walked vppon the waters were done in his person Wée maruell muche that the Doctours doo yet repeate that seeing the same Iustine as hathe bene already aunswered them saithe in expresse termes that at the time when the saide myracles were done there happened no chaunge in the body of Iesus Christ which as it had bin necessary if the myracles had bin done in his person so wée confesse stil as many times wée haue done that the cause of the saide myracles and the Diuine vertue of which they procéeded rested in Iesus Christ as when he healed the sicke that touched him with other myracles recited in the Histories of the Gospelles which were done by him but not in him but in the person of those that were healed There is greate difference betweene those myracles and them of his Transfiguration and Resurrection which were done by his onely vertue and in his proper person Vppon the importunate repetition whiche the Doctoures make aswel touching the meane of the byrth of our Lord Iesus Christe as of the terme Aphantos The Ministers no lesse to auoide the losse of time than to gréeue or trouble the Readers sende them to their former aunsweres Wée maruell also that the Doctoures to proue their penetration pretended of twoo bodyes and theire dimensions will grounde their proofe and principell Argumente vpon the proper signification of the woord to Penetrate For be it that by the French terme they woulde interprete the Gréeke woorde Pâ—eâ—cliestai or the Latine woorde Penetrare yet it shoulde be alwayes impossible to them to proue that which they pretend And to shew it is so in the Actes of the Apostles chapter 1â— 10. it is saide of the Aungel and S. Peter that they passed the firste seconde warde And in S. Luke 4 3â— but he passed through the middes of them and wente his way And in S. Iohn 4.4 He must passe by Samaria in al which places the Doctoures cannot finde that the terme Diercherstai alleaged in the said places may be any wayes applied to their penetration of dimensions neither can they proue any more that the terme Penetrare which the Auncient Translatour hathe vsed in 2. Timoth. 3. may be referred to their said penetration Wée say further that the Doctoures oughte not to finde it more strange that Iesus Christ mounting into heauen with a body termined and limited made himselfe opening to enter therin than wheÌ„ he discendes betwene the hands of Priests singing their masses for then as S. Gregorie saith the heauens are opened to make him passage albeit that according to their imagination his body be then separated from his measures dimensions The Doctors ought to haue conteÌ„ted themselues with the answer which we made them vpon the similitude parable of the Camel. For first they could no way proue that the saying of Iesus Christ vpon the end of the speach ought to be referred otherwaies than to the next member of the same where is spoken of the conuersion sauing of the Rich séeing the Pronoune Demonstratiue Hoc shewes it clearly After notwithstanding the proposition generall whiche is vpon the end coÌ„clusion of the said speach that al things are possible to God stretcheth aswel to the Camel as to the rich men as the doctors hold yet to accomodate the two parts of the comparison thei must confesse that as changing is necessary to the rich man to be saued so is it also to the body of the Camel to make him passe through the hole of a néedle but what so euer it be in what manner so euer that may be done the doctors shal neuer proue or conclude by that that two bodies may penetrate one an other Bicause the doctors by their most mighty and strong Argumentes coulde not conclude any their said absurdities nor enforce vs by force of their reasons to coÌ„fesse them they doo nothing but crye blasphemie blasphemie the same being the last shift of al men that despite and whet their téeth against the Truthe and mainteiners thereof when they can not ouercome them If wée woulde subscribe to their errours and abuses wée should be good and Catholike men but bicause wée resist and reproue them wée are in their opinion Heretikes Seducers Blasphemours and Atheistes Yea they haue in vs such horrour that it is maruel they rent not as did Caiphas their hoodes and hattes in spite of Gods woorde proponed defended by vs and condemned by them as Blasphemy The doctours haue dissembled our place of scripture alleaged to proue that faith is a worke of God that it produceth in the hart of the faithful when he wil regenerate him speaking by chaunge of Frée wil and Merite of Woorkes wherein wée are determined to answere and mainteine the truthe of these twoo pointes with Gods grace againste the enimies of his glorye when they shal be proponed to be debated vppon And touching the ioy that they say they haue receiued for that wée haue confessed to haue read in no ancient Authour or expresse termes that God cannot bring to passe that one body in one instant be in diuers places they haue no great cause to reioice at it séeing that albeit the said ancients haue not spokeÌ„ it in expresse speach yet haue they both said and written it in termes equiualent and that in infinite places A shorte resolution of al the discourse and aunsweres whiche the Ministers haue made vppon the matter of Goddes Omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctoures THe craft art of Sathan hath bene alwaies from the beginning of the world to traÌ„sfigure him self into an Angel of light search some fine preteÌ„ce to colour distinguish him self as vnder such colour to insinuate into the church of God there to sette abroach his Lyes trumperies like as we sée that vnder the colour to honor God he hath established al the Idolatry
firste of Auguste at seuen or eight of the clocke in the Euening 1566. AFter wée had giuen our Resolution vppon the Article of Goddes Omnipotencie wee ment not eftsoones to returne vpon that Argument as hauing already sufficiently handled it but suche is the horrour of the newe Blasphemies conteined in the laste pamphelet of the Ministers that against our saide meaning wée are forced if not to reply at the leaste to admonish them together with the Readers of this presente conference in the matter of the saide moste execrable blasphemies with suche are vrged to confesse who will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the Body of Iesus Christ in the Sacramente of the Aultare are not ashamed to deny also euen the power of God him selfe The consideration whereof as wée hope will not onely confirme the Catholikes in the faith of the saide Article but also with Goddes aide bring home againe many that are strayed and separated from the Catholike Churche vpon the vnderstanding of the detestable erroures and blasphemies succéeding with the contradiction to the Real presence of the Body of our Lorde in the saide Sacramente whiche might also serue the Ministers for their conuersion if without passion they woulde examine sincerely iudge of the reasons actes proponed touching the power of God where as resisting the Holy Sprite in place to confesse their errours they are turned into all sortes of wrongs and iniuries againste suche as of good will reuealed them misconstruing our purpose as not to tende but to deface and roote them out wherin as wée were neuer moued so muche as in thoughte so of the contrary we desired nothing more than the saluation of the Ministers togither with all suche as were fallen from the true Catholike Churche whereof what better witnesse can we prefer than that in our ordinarie preaching we persuade the people to pray to God for them only we séeke to roote vp the raigne and kingdome of Sathan and to abolish all heresies and peruerse Doctrine rather by the preaching of Gods worde than any other meane And much do we maruel that the Ministers séeme so hotly netled against vs in their laste Aunsweres séeing it is without occasion on our side as only chalenging many of our propositions to containe matter of blasphemy which they might haue suffised either to denie or disproue leauing the Readers to iudge without entring into so warme choler seeing that as they make profession of pacience and modestie so though they were vrged in iniurie yet they shuld not enforce reuēge They ought to remember the goodly titles wherwith they honoure the Catholike doctrine as with the name of superstition idolatrie impietie abhomination and many other like yea not sparing the personnes calling the Popes Bishops and Priestes Antichristes and ministers of Sathan Against which checkes we are cōtent when occasion moues to proue by Gods woorde that such titles are inconuenient no lesse to the persons than to the Doctrine preached by them And so albeit the ministers their furie deserue a sharpe replie yet to qualifie their Waspishe stomakes we will forbeare to Aunswere the iniuries that touche our persons and estates and leauing all to the iudgement of the Readers without passion we will only proceede to the pointes that concernes the Doctrine In the firste place the ministers do great wrong to vs and oures to resemble vs with the Donatistes as imputing falsly to vs to drawe the Church into a certaine place as did the Donatistes who placed hir onely in Afrike For it is moste manifest that we neither knowe nor confesse other Churche then the Catholike who as the name beares hathe bene visibly since the Apostles and stretcheth thorow all the world in what Region Countrey or place so euer the faithfull beléeuing in Iesus Christ be albeit we reuerence the Romish church as amongst others the first and principal as Ireneus Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Augustine with other Auncientes gaue hir this honor to confesse hir principally and as mother of all the other Churches And therfore with farre more iust reason that obiection might be applied against the ministers who can not say that their Churche is Catholike as hauing taken hir originall in our time séene and knowne at Geneua and founded vppon the priuate opinion of one man without that in any time before it can be shewed that any suche opion hathe bene holden in any nation what so euer which shal be handled in his order when we discende to examine the errors maintained by the Ministers against the Article I beléeue the holy Catholike Churche For the rest the Ministers oughte not to haue alleaged the violence crueltie and furie of the Donatistes againste the Catholikes seeing suche example condemnes them and their like But bicause it doth but kindle a memorie of the hurts passed which Fraunce hathe suffred by the setting on of the Ministers and for feare to stirre vp eftsoones to newe wrongs we will stay no longer vpon this spéeche shewing notwithstanding to the Ministers that the Donatistes reproched the Catholikes to endure persecution by them and that to roote them vp they solicited Emperoures and Magistrates as the Ministers doe euill applie to vs who confesse to desire firste of all the Conuersion of all Sectes and if they will not come to amendment that then by good and holy lawes the Magistrates to lay suche punishment vppon them as God be not blasphemed nor the people tormented according to the Doctrine of S. Augustine in an Epistle sent ad Vincentium contra Denatistas where he Confesseth that the Catholikes persecuted the Donatistes as of the contrarie the Donatistes afflicted also the Catholikes Onely their persecutions differed for the Catholykes dyd not execute but by the Magistrates and that procéeded of Charitie to roote vp the euil which hindered the publike peace and tranquillitie where of the contrary the Donatistes persecuted without aucthoritie of the Magistrate and procéeded of malice pretending nothing but ruine and subuersion S. Augustine allowes the firste to be good and according to God and the seconde he makes to be wicked and of the inspiration of Sathan wherin he brings many examples of the scripture we haue stand somewhat long vppon this pointe the rather to purge the slaunder which the Ministers haue laide vpon vs as that in our preachings wrytings and conference we haue not searched but their destruction and alwayes to persecute them construing it as a matter of particulare hate againste them and not of charitie and zeale to the truthe to conuert as wel the ministers as suche as are seduced and abused by them wherein we call God to witnesse and protest all the contrarie with request to the ministers to beléeue vs attending Goddes iudgement vppon it who is the only searcher of the heartes and affections of men Touching the Article where the Ministers say that God is almightie bicause he can doe all that he will if they would haue red the wrytings of S. Thomas whose
caÌ„ change the order which he hath established in nature then he caÌ„ also bring to passe that one bodie at one time be in many places we denie the consequence and by this reason suche a case would not only chaunge the order but also woulde intangle contradiction which euen by the Confession of the Doctors is out of the omnipotencie of God. In the Article folowing they doe the same which they reproche in vs as darkening that which we clearely proponed in our last wryting by meane whereof if they will that we Answere them at large let them vnfolde it better Where the Doctors accuse vs to haue malitiously concealed this woord place in the matter of circumscription of a body measured we say it was not néedeful to vse that woord expresly there bicause there is no man so ignorant who vnderstanding that a body is circumscripte inferreth not immediatly that then he is comprehended in a certaine place Touching the Camell if they suffice not with that hathe bene already saide let him read againe S. Ieromes opinion in his firste Booke againste the Pelagians who expounding the woords of Iesus Christe saithe as foloweth in this the Lord hath not saide that which might be done but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other for as a Camel caÌ„ not enter the hole of a needle so a rich man shal not enter into the kingdome of heauen or if thou shewe me that a rich man entreth there it shall folowe also that a Camell may passe thorowe the hole of a needle doe not alleage to me Abraham and others whom we reade in the olde Testament to be riche and being suche did enter into the kingdome of heauen bicause they vsing their riches well and employing them to good woorkes did cease by that meane to be riche thus it is written in S Ierome So that as it is necessary by his opinion that for the saluation of the riche man there be a chaunge in his heart and that he forbeare to be riche to the ende to enter into the kingdome of heauen so there muste be mutation in the Camell and he to chaunge his proportion to make him passe thorowe the eie of a néedle Touching the Article folowing we say that with gods grace we can discerne the light froÌ„ darknesse dreames froÌ„ mater of truth the same being the occasion that we cannot approue either the argumentes or the conclusions of the Doctours touching one body to be in many places at one instant being most assured by good and certaine testimonies of the Scripture that all that they go about to proue proceedes not from other where than of the spirite of errour and lyes Who by this meanes labours to retayne the impietie and idolatrye which heretofore he hath established in the world to the destruction almost of all Christendome Touching the Verbe Diâ—rchestaâ— the Doctors finde them selues somewhat troubled to saue their penetracion whych they cannot any way ground vpon the proper signification of that tearme neither yet vpon any authority of the scripture as hath bene to them by the places heretofore produced To proue that faith comes partlie of our selues and not wholy of God the Doctors alledge that no man beleues nisi volens which is that no man beleues but willingly we answer that vnder correction of our Maisters that is to euyll purpose bicause suche wyll and consent are of God who workes in the faithfull the wyll and well doyng the same being very well taught by S. Augustine in one of hys Epistels where he saith that when God cals the faithfull to saluation he findes in them no good wil at al but that he makes and creates it in their heartes if he meane to finde it there That which the Doctors alledge of S. Paule that we worke with God serues no way to their purpose For the Apostle speaketh therof the Minister not meaning there other thing than that which he writes more clearely to the Corâ—â—â—â—â—â—s in these wordes we are Embassadours of Christ as if God exhorted by vs And that which they adde that none of the auncient Doctors haue taught that a body cannot bée in diuers places at one time we saye they haue As our former writinges haue proued as being alledged in the textes of S. Augustine ad Dardanum and in the .30 treatise of S. Iohn We aunswer onely to two pointes of the aduertisement of the Doctors The first is that our sermons our writings the discipline obserued in our Churches the censures wee make of the slaunders there committed the care we haue to discouer reprehende and correct them the payne we take to reforme what is there disordered the publike prayers we make in all places to that ende defende vs towardes all honest men and iustifie vs agaynst the slaunders of the Doctors The seconde is that the Doctors abuse their aduertisement in saying that Abraham doubted of the promise the same beyng all together contrarye to the opinion of the Apostle in the fourth to the Romaines where he sayth in proper tearmes he made no doubt of the promise of God by distrust but was strengthened by faith giuing glory to God. To aunswer the last obiection of the Doctors made as they say against our aunswere giuen to their former question vpon the matter of the supper how soeuer they fayne not to haue delayed the conference and disputation of the Supper and the Masse yet they are not able to persuade any of any iudgemeÌ„t that hetherunto they haue not alwaies and yet do not shift off to enter into it For what requestes so euer came from the Lady of Buyllon or at any time made by vs yea notwithstanding the desire wyl many meanes made by the Duke of Nyuernois to drawe them to it yet they haue stand alwaies vnwylling yea and as it were impossible to enter vpon these two pointes The which when wée well perceiued contayning notwithstanding our desire not to depart from them tyll wée had first conferred therein We often protested not to dispute further with them if those two articles were not first decided and resolued To which ende we proponed certaine argumentes as well of the one as the other by order and good Methode to the end they might aduise what they wold oppugne and gaynsay in the sayd argumentes But the doctors dissimuling herein in place to pursue theÌ„ propone other friuolous and vnprofitable questions drawne out of theyr schoole diuinitie And notwithstanding our iust occasion of greefe in that our arguments were omitted by the Doctors yet to cut of all further pretence or colour to defer we haue answered their last questions And now in place to followe our answers reuerse them if thei had meane they propone eftsoones other new questioÌ„s no lesse friuolous than the first the same reuealing sufficiently their fansies dissimulation with discouery to euery man that they disguise their wyl to conferre vpon the sayd pointes seing they do what they can to alter the
vocation is necessary to suche effecte But not that this vocation is the imposition which they pretend assuring our selues that our vocation is more lawfull and better grounded than that of the Doctors Where the Doctors in the Article folowing alleage that we haue not Answered them to their sufficient liking touching the partes of the sacrament and the woord required for the consecration of the matter in the same we Aunswer that in our wrytings is no ambiguitie no darke sense nor any inuolution but suche as the Doctors list to finde there wherin as we lay our selues vppon the iudgement of the vpright hearers So also it becomes no more straunge to vs that the doctors chalenge vs of darke wryting than it was to S. Paul that his gospell was hid and couered to those that perished whose vnderstandings the God of this world had blinded Touching the presence of Iesus Christe in the supper wherin they would vrge vs to declare more amplie than in our former Aunswer we say we haue Aunswered sufficient clearly notwithstanding the doctors rest not satisfied wherof we make no greate maruell as knowing that they haue seldome in custome to be contented onlesse we consent both to their demaundes and desires which we are not nowe setled to do and much lesse that our Aunswer excéede the limits and bounds of the scripture neither in this Article of the supper nor in others but onely to folow the phrases and manners of spéeche of the same as neere as we can possibly By meane wherof for a full and resolute Aunswer we acknowledge no other eating of the flesh and bloud of Iesus Christe whether in or out of the supper than that which Iesus Christ declares in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn who eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud he hath life euerlasting also he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloude he dwelles in me and I in him as the liuing Father hath sent me so I goe thither bicause of my father and he that shall eate me shall liue also bicause of me Vppon the last Article which is of the concomitance we Aunswer that the Doctors demaunde was not so harde that we conceiued it not only we dissembled it as not to lose time to speake and write of such dreames wherin also we iudged the Doctors of sufficient suttletie to vnderstande that in denying them Transubstantiation was not to approue their concomitance And nowe to satisfie them we make this addition not to seke to know more than that which Iesus Christ teacheth in his woord that in the supper to participate in his flesh crucified and blud shed for remission of sinnes we must take and eat the bread and drinke the wine which are administred and not deuide or separate them in any sort the same being also defended by the Canons De confecr dist 2. Cum omne crimen Wedensday the fourtenth of August the yeare aforesaide This wryting being dispatched and sent away the Ministers not long after went to the Lord of Neuers with declaration that for their parts they had at large handled this coÌ„ference as finding the doctors by their impertinent and vain questions hitherto to séeke only to winne time without any aduauncement at al of the solution of the supper the Masse And albeit they disguised their demaundes as necessarily to tend to a prepratiue for this disputation yet they contained no other purpose than not at all to enter the conference but rather to kéepe things in suspence vntil they grew weary by which meanes this holy purpose mighte altogither dissolue breake in the ends they besoughte him humbly to aduise the Doctors without vaine varietie or change of matter to auoide the difference and refute that which the Ministers had maintained of the supper and defend that which they had coÌ„demned of the Masse wherein they obtained his promisse which gaue them a hope of profitable matter héereafter and such as might serue to edifie the readers and purge the greatest abuse and error that then occupied the Romishe Church All this notwithstanding there ran immediately a brute thorow the towne that Vigor was falne into a dangerous sicknesse without likelihoode of spéedy recouery the same giuing a feare to the Ministers to be intercepted in their laste hope which they doubted so muche the more as at the instant they were told that Doctor Sainctes was also gone out of Paris to the Cardinal of Loraine by which they could not otherwayes presume than that they should be enforced to a long abode in Paris without any sette exercise to occupie the time as being come thither but by chance for Spyna but made it in his way to passe into Aufon and for the other being Minister to the Church of Orleans it was not long since he was taken out of prison whether he was led in Iune afore vpon a false imputation by the enimies of Gods Churche charging him to be Author of a most pernitious wicked Boke written against the obedience to Kings and Princes by which he founde it very inconuenient for him to tarie so long in the Towne whether he came not at the first willingly For these respects they resolued eftsones to returne to the Lord of Neuers and also to tel him that séeing doctor Sainctes who might haue taried and drawne to him in Vigors place some other at his plesure was departed without any aduertisement of his returne there was also no reason of their abode stil as wel in respect of the incertaintie of their businesse as also that their Churches had neede of them for the exercise of their charge as they desired notwithstaÌ„ding in the end they yelded to their propre incommoditie as to remaine there vntil the Lord of Neuers parted from Paris which shuld be vpon the ende of August being minded then to go to a Lordship of his called Conlomiers for then hauing neither the presence of the Lord of Neuers nor the company of the Doctors the Ministers were at a gaze as hauing nothing to doe nor any man to dispute withall Vpon these declarations the Lorde of Neuers deliuered them their pasport in wryting signed Lodouico de Gonzague with promisse to send vnto them the Answer of the Doctors that by the meane of the Lord de Buci S. Georg who vndertoke the charge of the businesse The Ministers for their parts promised also to be ready to returne to Paris either els to Answer from the place where they should remaine as often as the Doctors would wryte This businesse being thus setled the Ministers departed immediatly with expectation of some spéedie newes froÌ„ the Doctors from whom as yet they haue hard neither argumeÌ„t nor effect only they haue hard that thorow the citie of Paris there hathe bene publike sale of certaine wrytings within whose titles is included this woord of conference as to make séeme to the worlde that they contained matter touching the former disputations this policie was not without great profite to the Printers so vehemente was the desire of men to knowe the truthe for whose satisfying and contentment we thought good to spred abrode the matter as it passed in déede reseruing till an other time to publish that which the doctors would wryte against it if they will wryte at all and also the Ministers Answeres which shall neuer faile In the meane while let euery one make his profite of the present Contentes with prayer to the Father of all lighte to poure more and more the cleare lighte of his spirite vpon his Church in the true vnderstanding of his holy woorde for the restoring and aduauncement of the spirituall kingdom of Iesus Christe his Sonne our Lorde FINIS 2. Tim. 3. 2 Pet. Rom. 15. Iames 1. Luke 16. Luke 2. Sorbonae a College of Papists in Paris Cap. 7.18 Rom. 12.6 Cap 59. 21. Deut. 28. Rom. 8.9 Chap. 2.20.27 1. Tim 3 15 Psal. 30. Chap. 13. Hebrues 13. Rom. 10. Hebr. 11. Rom. 10. Iohn 24. Luk. 24. Hebr 12. Iohn 8. 1. Timo. 2 Hebr. 6. Actor 12. Actor 5. Luke 24 Lib. 4. Cap. 17. Sect. 29. Hebr. 4.14 Iohan. 12. Act. 7. King. 1.11 Iohn 6. Ephe. 2. Psal. 7.5.2.8 1. Cor. 15. 2. Cor. 6. 1. Cor. 1. Iohn 14 Ephe. 3. Iohn 17. 1. Cor. 4.13 Rom. 10. Iohn 6. 1. Cor. 10. Math. 26. 1. Cor. 11. Gene. 17. Exod. 12. Tit. 3. epist. â—3 â— Corrin 1. Cor. 1. In a Sermon of the supper Chap. 16. Hom. 17. epist. 29. Agaynst Faustine 1. Cor. 11. Sermo 3. ad Ephesi