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soul_n	heart_n	lord_n	word_n	14,837	5	4.3216	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63214	The tryals and condemnation of Thomas White alias Whitebread, provincial of the Jesuits in England, William Harcourt, pretended rector of ]ondon, John Fenwick,procurator for the Jesuits in England, John Gavan alias Gawen, and Anthony Turner, all Jesuits and priests; for high treason: in conspiring the death of the King, the subversion of the government, and Protestant religion. At the Sessions in the Old-Bailey for London and Middlesex, on Friday and Saturday, being the 13th and 14th of June, 1679. Published by authority.	Whitbread, Thomas, 1618-1679, defendant.; Barrow, William, 1610-1679, defendant.; Caldwell, John, 1628-1679, defendant.; Gawen, John, 1640-1679, defendant.; Turner, Anthony, 1628 or 9-1679, defendant.; Corker, James Maurus, 1636-1715, defendant.	1679 (1679)	Wing T2248; ESTC R219768	109,846	92

lose their understandings or have a very blind obedience to yours or it will never down Ay Come mr Gaven how do you say is the meaning of this Gaven For my part I 'le assure your Lordship I was not there but this is known to all the Christian World that there is such a meeting in Spain France Germany c. that wherever the Jesuits are once in three years they have a meeting among themselves for the setling of their Affairs Indeed the words have given your Lordship an occasion to raise a Difficulty what the word Design should mean which I do give this Answer to Your Lordships Difficulty is that the word design here should not be made use of to send one poor Jesuit to Rome my Lord do but mark the end of the Congregation and you will say to us that we might well use that word because the word may import some great business of Concernments now what business of greater concernment for poor Religious men to meet together about than those things that may promote their better state in another world and the Regulation of what is amiss in their Order my Lord upon my Conscience and Salvation this was the end of the Congregation to meet and see what is amiss in the Order who do their duties and who not who are irregular in their Offices and whose Office is vacant and to be supplied Lord Ch Just But must no body come to Town nor appear too much about the Town for this Gaven Therefore my Lord as to the word Design it concerning the whole spiritual good of the whole body of the English Jesuits it might well be used for the Consultation of that Body about all their good Temporal and Spiritual which was all concerned in it L. C. J. These are a many words but to no purpose Gaven Now my Lord for the second thing that you Object your Lordship remembers very well that the Continuation of the sense in so many lines made the thing the more suspitious that more was intended by it than so Now to this I shall be able to answer if there can be given a particular reason why we should ad that word of Secresy to the other of Design having Answered to the one part we now give an answer to the other and so to the whole Now my Lord because of the time the Parliament was then sitting and that we might not offend the King and all Civil Magistrates whom we honour from our hearts and Souls that word was used that it might be kept secret L. C. J. It was not out of Love to the Parliament it was the nature of the thing required it nor was it out of any fear you had of them I did never find though you are as good at it as ever any I met with for I never met with a Priest that had much more understanding but really you do not Answer me You are so far from Scholars and arguing like such that you do not maintain the matter with common and rational understanding but only heap up so many vain words like a Rope of Sand put together which hath no natural Coherence for you cannot possibley make this reasonable that the people should have so much Caution that they should have not come too long to Town beforehand Gaven Not to be taken notice of L. C. J. Not to appear in Town when they come Gaven Not to be taken notice of L. C. J. I say so you cannot tell why all these Cautions should be used meerly for choosing an Officer Gaven My Lord our Lives depended upon it if we were taken being such men as we are L. C. J. You can make nothing of it and you will find it an hard task to Answer it for if half the Evidence that hath been given were not given yet this Letter of your own which cannot be denyed is an unanswerable proof It does monstrously confirm Mr. Oats's Testimony to be undeniable as to the meeting at the Consult for he four or five dayes before hand comes and tells the Council the very day which five or six days after this Letter makes good which is found in Harcourts Custody Then there was a Consulation upon the day the very day that Mr. Oats says and what he calls a Consultation your own Letter says is a Design Gaven It was a Design of a Congregation L. C. J. What sense is there in that will any man in England or did any man in England ever say take heed of discovering our design of going to Church or choosing a Collector Gaven There is reason for the one and reason for the other too L. C. J. I would appeal to your selves and all here present what the natural import of such a Letter is whether it does not carry a matter more than ordinary whether its natural Intendment doth not look at that And the next thing is this does any man write plainer then this when they write of a thing that is of such a nature Is not the Danger too great to hazard that fact which they call the nature of the thing to intrust it in a Letter Is it not vain to put that in a Letter in words at length which they to whom it is writ know what the thing means And if it should be further known than they would have it the thing could never be done And if you consider the person that write● a Jesuit or a Priest are Priests ever plain And will you expect plainness here when in things of Ten thousand times less moment they don't write plainer Is it not known you have not a Proselyte that you do not keep under Obligations as close as your Confession are Have you not taken here as it is sworn a Sacrament of Secresie Is there a woman that you convert but in the Dark Or a Papist made out of a Preist's hole Are not all your deeds under ground and do you work with any Light but that of a Dark Lanthorn This is plain unless you give a better answer to this Letter the Letter will hang about your necks L. C. J. North. Mr. Oates will tell you what the Design was Mr. J. Elis He can tell you what it was L. C. J The letter speaks it self Dr Oates Mr Gavan and they now tell your Lordship what this consult was for but they deny'd this consult at first when there was but one man to justifie it I justfied it before Mr Fen. who denied it at the Council-board though now they pawn their Salvation upon the justification of it Fenw I never denied that there L. C. J. Come have they any thing to say for themselves Mr. Bedlow My Lord whereas as Mr. Gavan sayes that in obedience to the King and Parliament they would have their consultations secret and that they always desired to conceal themselves then the time of Sessions of Parliament was the only time that I and others have been employed to fetch over more Jesuites than at

my self with all my heart and soul haveing used all the remedies I can I have cleared my self as to the main day the 24th of April whereon all the pretended Plot lies And I 'le bring Witnesses that shall swear I was not in London in August and if my eternal Salvation lay upon it I could averr I was not in London and I wish I may be made an example of justice before all the world in the sight of God I speak it if I be not the most innocent person in the world And my Lord seeing there is only his Oath for it and my denial I have onely one demand I don't know whether it be not an extravagant one or no if it be I don't desire to have it granted L. C. J. What is that Demand Gaven You know that in the beginning of the Church this learned and just Court must needs know that that for one thousand years together it was a custom and grew to a constant law for the Tryal of persons accused of any capital Offence where there was onely the accusers Oath and the Accused's denial for the prisoner to put himself upon the Tryal of Ordeal to evidence his own Innocencie L. C. J. North We have no such law now L. C. J. You are very fanciful Mr. Gaven you believe that your cunning in asking such a thing will take much with the auditory but this is onely an artificial Varnish You may do this with hopes of haveing it take with those that are Roman Catholicks who are so superstitious as to believe Innocency upon such desires but we have a plain way of understanding here in England and that helpt very much by the Protestant Religion so that there is scarce any Artifice big enough to impose upon us You ask a thing that sounds much of a pretence to innocencie and that it would be a mighty suffering if you should miscarry because you ask that you know you can't have Our Eyes and our understandings are lest us though you do not leave their Understannings to your Proselytes but you are mistaken if you think to impose that upon us that you do upon them and you do so impose upon them But I 'll tell you there is scarce any man with us that can be a Papist for you cannot deceive and gull us as you have done all that you have perverted to your way Gaven Is it any harm my Lord to ask whether I might not be so tried L. C. J. North look you here Mr. Gaven the time is far spent if you have any thing to say we will hear you if you have any witnesses call them and we will examine them but if not the other Prisoners must be admitted to make their defence as well as you Gaven All these six can prove that I was at Wolverhampton the last week in July Then another Witness stood up for him Gaven Where was I in July Witness I cannot speak to all July but my Lord I can declare that Mr. Gaven was in Staffordshire the last week of July every day I am confident L. C. J. Where was the first three weeks in July Witness I cannot speak as to that but in the last week in July he came to an apartment of an house that I lived in L. C. J. Cook you Mr. Gaven you see what this Evidence is she says that you were in Staffordshire the last week in July for you had an apartment in the house she lived in Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July last 2 Witness My Lord I saw him my self at the latter end of July for very many days for he was in a Room of the house that I lived in I am sure most of the last week L. C. J. Where was he the last fortnight 2 Witness I am confident I saw him all the last fortnight but I cannot be positive L. C. J. Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July 3. Witness My Lord I lived in the same Town with him and I do not remember that he was out all July but the last week he was in our house Lord Chief Just Well call another Who stood up Lord Chief Just Where was Mr. Gaven in July last 4 Witness He was in July last the last week in a part of our house Lord Chief Just So then he came home from London the 23 th or 24 th of July Well Mr. Gaven have you any more Witnesses to any other purpose for here are enough to this Gaven No my Lord. Lord Chief Just Mr. Whitebread have you any Witnesses to call Wh My Lord I have only this and I desire to be heard in this point to prove that Mr. Oats was mistaken in his Evidence that he gave at the last Trial against Mr. Ireland L C. J Look you I must break in upon you you have been told so often all of you have been told it and yet you are upon the former Trials again You are now upon your trial for your life if you could have disproved any thing that he said at a former trial you should have taken a legal way and convicted him of perjury but now to charge him with a printed Paper is not fair You must speak to what he says now Whitebread He says the same now But all that I say is this If he be not honest he can be witness in no case I suppose if any one can prove him not Probus Testis his Testimony is not to be received in any case Lord Chief Just But how will you prove that Come on I 'le teach you a little 〈…〉 ●ill come to contradict a Witness you ought to do it in a matter which is the present debate here for if you would convict him of any thing that he said in Irelands Trial we must try Irelands Cause over again But if you will say any thing against what he says now do Whitebread That which I would alledg is this If he be convicted of perjury in one case he is not to be believed in another Lord Chief Just You say right if he be convicted Whitebread He is not only then an incompetent Witness for he cannot be said to be probus testis but he is improbus Now this is that I can prove Mr. Just Pemberton Nay you must shew it by a Record Lord Chief Just You cannot have so little understanding you that have been and were to be so great a man among them had been Provincial and was to have been somewhat else I have told you already that to prove him to be a man that hath no faith in him he must be convicted You must have indicted him and convicted him of the thing wherein he did commit perjury and then he had been prepared to justifie himself But shall you come now and at this your Trial and prove what he said at Staleys Trial and Colemans Trial and Irelands Trial And must we examine what matters have

but I am confident it was not because I used to order my maid to get him his Linnen ready upon any Journey he had none now Dr. Oates My Lord he took a Chamber to go into the Exercise now my Lord he taking a Chamber on purpose for this very thing he might pretend that and come to London the while and they not know it because he was shut up for none are to come at them Winford My Lord I know not any such thing of him but this is a Rule amongst them that when they are so shut up if there be a necessary occasion to come to them about any particular business as sending them Linnen or so they have admittance to them L. C. J. Were you employ'd upon any such extraordinary matter Winford My Lord I used to go and see him and carry him his Linnen L. C. J. And can you charge your memory with that Winford Yes my Lord I can L. C. J. When the Latter end of July Winford Yes my Lord I often went to see him then when he was gone from my house L. C. J. Where was he for all the former part of July till those eight days Winford He was at my own house L. C. J. When went he first into this recluse way Winford He went from my house the 23th of July L. C. J. Was he not close when he was with you Winford No my Lord. L. C. J. And the last eight dayes you had access to him Winford Yes I had L. C. J. I ask you Are these people shut up at a certain time and there is no coming to them upon any occasion Winford My Lord most of those days I did see him indeed he was shut up but upon any kind of business as carrying of the Linnen and sometimes a pair of Gloves and other things of his own or sometimes to speak with him about business were admitted to him L. C. J. I see your Confinements are not so great as you would make them to be or he would have us think I ask you once more whether you can say that during the months of June and July it was not possible for him to make a step to London and you never the wiser Winford I am very confident he did not he was not absent long enough to do it Sir Cr. Levins You said just now you could not say positively but he might be absent for five or six days Winford I do not believe he did for he had no linnen with him which he used to have when he went to London L. C. J. But supposing he had no linnen might he not go to London and you not know of it Winford I Can't tell whether he was absent or no long enough to do it Gaven Pray my Lord let me speak as I live an innocent man will be lost else He says expresly I was in Town in July and gives this argument for it That Mr. Ashby was in Town and he met me with him L. C. J. No no Mr. Oates was not so positive he says it was either in June or July but he rather thinks it was July But Mistris might not he in the beginning of July be absent so long as a man might go to London and return again in the first three weeks of July I mean Winford My Lord I cannot charge my memory because I did not know what I should be asked and so could not recollect my self I onely say I am confident of it because he always told me when he went such a Journey that I might make provision of Linnen to sit him for it L. C. J. Your reasons are weak because he used to tell you that you might get him linnen men upon extraordinary occasions do extraordinary things so that you are not to govern your self by what he used to do in his acquainting you or you in providing his linnen This was no ordinary Errand and therefore I don't ask you whether he had linnen from you or no but you are onely to charge your self with remembring whether he could not be absent long enough out of your sight to have been such a Journey Gaven Pray my Lord give me fair play He does charge it expresly and is precise to a day He saith I was here in July after that Ashby was come to Town and before that he went out of Town And he says that Ashby came to Town in the middle of July and went out of Town about the latter end of July or beginning of August Now my Lord I say this he saying that Ashby came to Town the middle of July and staid there a fortnight and then went to the Bath that I came to Town while that he was there if I prove that I was in Staffordshire from the 15th or 16th of July to the end of the month then I shall clear my self evidently for he does in effect charge me to be here some time in that fortnights time and I prove that all the latter part of July I was in the country L. C. J. He does not charge it to a day but he says it was about a fortnight Dr. Oates Mr. Ashby came to Town in the beginning or middle of July I rather think it was the middle but I dare not upon my Oath be positive as to the time and in that time Mr. Ashby staid in Town mr Gaven came to London for I remember he said he would go and see Father Ashby who was then at Wild-house L. C. J. Prove where you were now all July Call your Witneses Gaven I prove that I was at Wolverhampton from the 23th to the end of the month L. C. J. Call your witnesses to prove where you were the beginning that can speak expressly to it Gaven My Lord I have them not here L. C. J Why then would you make us lose all this time Gaven My Lord I will tell you hear the words of an ingenuous man being as I was innocent not knowing What they intended to charge me with I in my mind run over all that I could imagine I had at any time done that they could lay hold on If I had been guilty of any thing my own conscience would have told me of it and I should have provided to have given some Answer to it but being innocent I was to ransack my memory to sum up all the passages of my life where I had been what I had said what I had done that would give them any occasion of accusing me And because I did imagine they might think I was here the 24th of April I brought witnesses for that and because I did imagine that they might speak of some Consults in April I sent up for such witnesses at my own charge as could testifie where I was then L. C J. But you have not one Protestant that testifies for you Gavau And now my Lord I humbly cast my self upon the Honour and Justice of this Honourable and Just Court to which I submit