dost thou rather believe all those things to be only Allegorically spoken 4. And if thou dost believe that that Jesus the very Christ was indeed a real personal man whether dost thou believe that he really and verily and in a real and very body of flesh dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day from the dead and therein after 40 daies conversing by times with his disciples ascended or was taken up into heaven and be those things also only figuratively to be taken 5. And whether dost thou believe that the sufferings or dyings of that man in any such real body of flesh and his rising again in the same body and ascending is truly availeable to the taking away or procuring pardon for any mans sin and obtaining blessing and salvation for men or dost thou thy self believe to be saved from thy sin and from destruction by vertue thereof yea or nay 6. Whether dost thou indeed believe that there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in men and in other visible creatures yea or nay 7. And if neither the bodies of men that die and go to the grave shall ever be raised out of their graves to a sensible life again nor as Geo. Whitehead implies in some questions sent us the souls of the wicked after death shall come out of Hell again to receive any further judgement Whatof the wicked shall be raised up again after their bodily death and judged to eternal punishment as John 5.29 Mat. 25.46 Is it any thing or nothing and if any thing What is it 8. Doth the soul of the wicked at or after the bodily death go to any hell in which they sustain or feel any torment and if so what is the hell they go to and are tormented in I challenge thee to return me if thon darest a plain and direct answer to these queries according to the very truth and belief of thy heart not giving revilings instead of answers but observing 1 Pet. 3.15 John Horne This was sent him April 19. to which I have as yet received no answer from him this fourteenth of May so that I hope his mouth is stopt with them However for any plain positive and sober answer John Horne Richard Hubberthornes Letter in answer to my Queries is thus London 6th day 4th Mon. 1660. John Horne I Have received a paper of Queries from thee by which it is easily known to be thine by thy preface of lies which is thy usual and accustomed manner and marke of the beast in all thy papers thou saiest I am guilty of seven or eight falshoods but dost not mention any of them neither dost answer my paper which proves to the contrary So thou being so often reproved and yet hardens thy heart against it so if thou wilt be filthy thou maist be filthy still and if thou wilt be unconvinced when the truth hath been so plainly and often declared unto thee thou mayst be wicked still Answ As unto thy first query I can clear my self from being a deceiver or false Teacher in all things which I have spoken and can also prove thee to be a false accuser in saying that I said published that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure which thing I never said nor published and so thy query is grounded upon a lye But those that did say and publish that falshood of me was thy brethren the hirelings and deceivers at Newcastle upon Tyne and so thou takes their lies to be a strength unto thy own And as for the believing Samaritans they did know by the spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh was indeed the Saviour of the world and Paul was a true Apostle when he proved that Jesus was the very Christ as Acts 9.22 And that which Christ himselfe said in the first of John 4. and 2. was true but what is all that unto thee to ground thy lye upon as above mentioned Answ As for thy second query calling George Whitehead a silly deceiver for justifying of my saying in his answer to Cambridge queries What G. Whitehead said in that answer to Cambridge Queries was truth and was a question put forth unto them which neither they nor thou hast answered which Query was this Could Christ have been said to have been transfigured if his coming in the flesh had not been a figure or example till his glory was revealed hast thou not read that he was the expresse figure of his Fathers substance instead of which it is translated he is the expresse image c. And if thou wilt prove him a deceiver first deny what he hath said or that it is so written which if thou do affirme thou goest but about to turne the truth of God into a lye and if thou do confesse thou ownes what G. Whitehead hath said and so not prove him a deceiver and as for thy reason to contradict it which is that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 In this thou hast appeared very ignorant void of reason and true comparison for the Apostles and believers were neither in the power nor form of godly men before the renewing of their minds but were children of wrath and were in the form and power of wicked men Answ Againe Thy third Query is grounded upon the same lye with the first if Christs coming in the flesh be but a figure which was never spoken by me nor any of us but if we should say that Christ was an example or was the expresse figure of the Fathers substance yet thereby we do not say that Christs coming in the flesh is but a figure And as for my belief of Jesus he was real man and had a real body prepared for him and in it both soul and spirit power and life which was immortal and Eternal in which body was real flesh and blood and was born of the Virgine according to the Scripture Answ As to the fourth Query that which thou queriest of me thou dost not believe thy selfe that Christ in that very body of flesh and blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again but thou saist with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven so then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine which thou saist is real flesh and blood and so according to thy own writings not the same But we do believe that in the very same real body in which he after his resurrection did converse with his Disciples is ascended into heaven Answ To thy fifth Query I say That the suffering and dying of that man Jesus and his ascending into heaven is truly available unto those which do receive him by which their sins are taken away and they saved from destruction but those that do not receive him but reject him his light and spirit his suffering dying and rising
for the confirmation of their faith in the reality of his Resurrection though he said to Mary taking hold of his feet to worship him touch me not for I am not yet ascended Mat. 28.9 with John 20.17 For the Disciples were bid to the end aforesaid to handle and touch him Luke 24.39 John 20.27 3. To the third I say It 's probable Mary did at the same time touch him and intended to worship him with Divine adoration that occasioned his saying to her touch me not even as Cornelius fell down at Peters feet to worship him and worshipt him and John fell down to worship the Angel and both were thereupon forbidden by them so to do Act. 10.25 Rev. 19.20 4. To the fourth The two Angels that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel c. were two Angels and had two individual formes but that they had bodies as the bodies of men of the same substance with them the Scripture saies not nor do I believe it Nor find I it said that Jesus appeared to his Disciples after his Resurrection in white or shining garments or that he and the Angels had bodies alike of flesh and bones which a spirit hath not nor that a spirit hath a body without flesh and bones or a body at all otherwise then it assumes a body or appearance of a body to appear in And the inquiring and prying into these things about what is written argues a proud Luciferian spirit and a man rashly puft up with fleshly minde not holding the head or an Atheistical deriding and designe to undermine the authority of the Scriptures There is enough in what is revealed to busy ourselves about and no need to inquire of things kept secret as Judg. 13.18 Deut. 29.29 5. To the fifth That the women did distinguish which was Christ is certain but how they did so is curiosity to inquire and persumption to determine one of the foolish and unlearned questions which we are to avoid 2 Tim. 2.23 He that could appear to them in divers forms as he pleased could also appear in such a form as in which they might know him when he pleased and in such a form when he pleased as in which they did not know him as to Mary and the two Disciples going to Enimaus or he could open their eyes to discerne him or hold them from it as he would The like may be said for his speech Luke 24.16 6. The sixth The Angels of whom the women had a vision were seen visibly without doubt for of seeing invisibly I have not heard except in such a fence as the seer be not seen again which was not their case Nor were those Angels bodies or persons of men much lesse had they visible voices as is ignorantly and non-sensically queried Visible voices and audible colours are both alike 7. To the seventh in which are several Queries I say 1. That the 11 Disciples saw him after his Resurrection at Jerusalem before they saw him at Galilee for at Jerusalem they saw him the same day he arose But Galilee was above a daies journey thence Luke 2.44 much lesse could they being in mortal bodies go thither and returne again to Jerusalem the same day 2. To what is said That Luke 24.33 He appeared where the 11 were met together And yet it 's said John 20.24 That Thomas was not there with them I Answer It 's clear That Luke mentions together the things of two appearances to them distinctly mentioned by John And yet 2. It 's not said in Luke that the 11 were together when he appeared but when the two disciples returned How knowest thou but after that Thomas might be gone out before Christs appearing 3. Thomas is called one of the 12. John 20.24 Mathias was chosen into their number and reckoned with them before the Evangelists wrote those books though not before those appearances it may be and the Evangelists might speak of them according to their present accompt of them when he wrote that book And so Thomas who was one of the 12 when the Evangelists wrote being absent there were besides him but 11 of the 12. 3. As for his Ascending to his Father before that time possibly he might be said in such fence as in John 3.13 to have ascended more than once yea frequently in his spirit but in the most proper sense of his body going up thither there to be contained or received till the time of restitution of all things he was not as then ascended 8. To the eighth If by my story you mean that these are not to be taken as they are spoken of I deny it They are a history or relation of things not now to be so done or so seen now as then they were done and seen Though the usefulnesse of them is not to be known and understood but by the Spirits opening it to us in his Testimony concerning him and giving us an understanding therein But herein the Q's corrupt judgement is seen that they imply that they believe not that there was ever any such things really done or seen And so that they are very Atheistical not believing further than their reason can comprehend and therefore where they judge it absurd as generally they do the truth of Christ they turne it into a fancie and believe nothing really as it is recorded Written by J. Horne April 19. 1660. Eight Queries propounded to Richard Hubberthorne by John Horne to which his plain answer is desired accord-to his real mind in them 1. IF the believing Samaritans did know rightly and by the Spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh is indeed the Christ the Saviour of the world John 4.42 and if Paul was a true Apostle and preacht the truth when he proved that that Jesus is the very Christ And Christ himselfe said truely that his flesh is meat indeed and his blood drink indeed John 6.53 54 55. And the spirit of truth witnesses Christ come in the flesh 1 John 4.2 How canst thou clear thy selfe of being a Deceiver and false Teacher in saying and publishing that Christs coming in the flesh was but a Figure 2. What but a silly deceiver was he G.W. in his answers to the Cambridge Queries who in justification of thy said saying alledged that Christ was transfigured Might it not as well by the same reason be touched that the Apostles and Believers were but forms of men or of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.1 3. And if Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure whether dost thou believe indeed that that Christ or Jesus was a reall man consisting of a real humane body and soul that had in his body real flesh and blood really and verily conceived in the natural womb of a corporal Virgine A Virgine in such sense as other Virgines be before married to or carnally known by any man and born really of her into the world or
again and ascending is not available to the taking away or procuring pardon for their sins for by their rejection of him to teach and lead them into all truth they make his blood and all his works unto them as of none effect To thy sixth Query wherein thou asks whether I do believe there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and from what is in man and other visible creatures Answ Whether wouldest thou have any to believe above what is written or where dost thou read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures if thou canst shew me any such Angel or created spirit which is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then thou shewest some ground for such a faith but the Scripture is not a rule for any such faith neither doth it speak any such thing and herein thou wouldest appear wise or manifest thy self a fool above what is written and not as one that would be instructed though thou be ignorant Answ To the seventh Query That which shall rise again after death out of the graves is the Seeds and each Seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into Everlasting life the other into condemnation Answ To the eighth Query The Souls of the wicked at death go to a Hell where torment is felt which is the eternal wrath of God the just recompence of reward to all hypocrites hirelings and deceivers who have not only refused to receive the truth in the love of it but have also set themselves in enmity against it and this shalt thou also know hereafter better than thou dost now and here is an answer returned unto thee without railing according to 1 Pet. 3.15 Richard Hubberthorne The Reply to Richard Hubberthornes Answer THough there is no end of controversing with evil spirits nor the answers sent by R. Hubberthorne need no Reply the very comparing them with the questions they relate to being a sufficient discovery of Richards erroneousnesse in them to those that are intelligent yet for the sakes of some weaker ones and to stop the mouths of the deceived I shall note his falshoods and deceits therein 1. His falshoods as 1. It 's false That I had in my paper a Preface of lies My Preface was thus Richard Hubberthorne I once received a letter from thee and I gave thee an answer to it in which I noted thee guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods thou didst return me an answer to it but didst neither therein confesse thy evils nor disprove them so that I might slight thee as a proved lyer In that answer I remember I took notice of some corrupt passages about the Resurrection of Christ by which I am satisfied in part that thou art out of the truth yet because thou shouldest not think nor thy party vapor as one of them yester night began to suggest that I am afraid to answer thee 〈◊〉 Thou having not multiplyed thy questions to very many I shall be willing for this once to returne thee an answer to them provided that thou wilt plainly and nakedly answer me in the like number propounded by me to thee and when thou sendest thy answers to them to me thou shalt God willing have mine to thine returned by me this was what he calls my preface of the truth of which in every particular I call God to witnesse between us 2. It 's false that it 's my usual and accustomed manner and the marke of the beast in all my papers to make prefaces of lies a thing said of him without proof 3. It 's false that I said he is guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods for my words were not so but that in his former letter which was some years since sent me I noted him guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods that he is guilty now of them and repented none of them since I affirmed not 4. It 's false that his paper proves to the contrary for neither is his paper in being and so now proves nothing nor did it when in being take notice of those falshoods that I charg'd him with so as to disprove them 5. It 's false that I brought as a reason to contradict G. Whitehead's indeavoured proof that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 for that was not my reason nor my assertion but by saying was my way of question Might it not as well by the same reason be avouched that the Apostles were but formes of men or of Godly men because transformed into the renewing of their minds 6. It 's false that in that saying of mine I appeared very ignorant void of reason true comparison for I appeal to all intelligent men whether the word transformed applyed to the believers signifies not every jot as much that they were before or then also but forms as that the word transfigured applyed to Christ proves that he was or his coming in the flesh a figure or but a figure Besides that he left out part of my saying for I said forms of men or of godly men 7. False it is too that the Apostles or believers before that transforming of them in the renewing of their minds mentioned and exhorted to were neither in the forme nor power of godly men but were children of wrath and in the power and form of wicked men for when the Romans were exhorted to be transformed in the renewing of their minds which as it was a thing but exhorted to they had not as then for exhortations respect things things yet to be done when such exhortations are given they those Romans were believers and Saints and in part renewed as appears in Rom. 1.7 8 12. 8. It 's a grosse falshood that he saies in his answer to Qu. 4. that I do nor believe myself what I query therein of him and as 9. False too that he charges me with querying whether Christ in that very body of flesh blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again My words were not so but whether in a real and very body of flesh he dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day 10. False it is again that he saies I say with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven for I have no such saying nor have so determined of it 11. False it is too that he in his next words implies that if he be not in heaven with flesh blood and bones then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine for he was laid into the Sepulchre in that very body born of the Virgin and not with another when as yet his blood was before shed out of that body the body and blood are spoken of as distinct things and his body was his body and the same body in which the
figure and why is it translated image instead of figure if the word there used is none of those words elsewhere in the Scriptures translated by the word figure besides that he corrupts the text and saies the figure of his substance instead of the image of his person but what if it had been read the expresse figure of his Fathers substance doth that prove his coming was a figure too so then to prove him a Deceiver I have denyed and do deny what he saies to be true if in his question he imply affirmatively either that those words be so read or that they prove Richards saying that he defends the falsenesse of what he adds to what he calls my reason is before spoken to 2. His answer to my third question prevaricates for Rich. Hubberthorne by G. Whiteheads pleading for his saying said more than he supposes that Christ was an example or the expresse figure of the Fathers substance but what is it all one to be an example and the expresse figure of the Fathers substance that they are put so together as if they amounted to the same thing are all examples then in the Scripture the expresse figure of the Fathers substance but besides that he in answering leaves out and durst not touch the tearms of my question as that Jesus was a real man consisting of a real humane body and Soul and that he was really conceived and born in the natural womb of a corporal Virgin in such fence a Virgin as other Virgins be c. he durst not speak so distinctly but hides himself in such general tearmes as might keep him from being so easily seen 3. He gives the go by to the fourth question too and plaies the prevaricator in the last clauses of it as is before sufficiently noted 4. He hides himself in his answer to the 5th and leaves out the latter part of it for in the former part the word◠by which their sins are taken away those words by which are equivocal and are so subtilly placed as he may mean that by their receiving him their sins are taken away and not by the suffering and dying of the man Jesus c. 5. In his answer to the sixth he plainly enough casts mists before his readers eyes to dazle him that he might not discerne that he believes no Angles or created spirits distinct from God and the spirits of men and that are in other visible creatures and yet his intimate joyning with the Sadduces in denying them appears clearly enough to those whose eyes can see through his mists for he implyes it 's to believe above what is written to believe that there are Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in man and in other visible creatures and by his question where I read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures what doth he but imply his unbelief or denyal of any such thing To answer briefly to the question I say that though I do not read in just so many words put together that saying yet I find it clearly in the Scriptures in every part of it as to say 1. That there are Angels and Spirits I read in Heb. 1.7.14 that they are created is also both there implyed and in Ephe. 3.9 where it is said that God created all things by Jesus Christ and in Col. 1.16 all things were created by him that are in heaven and that are in earth whether visible and invisible c. so then there being such things as Angels and spirits those Angels things in heaven Mark 13.32 Angels in heaven and all things in heaven and earth being created of God by Christ it necessarily followes that they be creatures and created also 3. That they are distinct from God whether as in man or in heaven as more usually he is said to be is as evident if we first shew what it is to be distinct now that is distinct from another thing that is not that thing as the Soul is distinct from the body because it is not the body and the body is distinct from the Soul because it is not the Soul and the eye is distinct from the sight because the eye may be without sight and the servant is distinct from the master because he is not the master so the Angels are distinct from God and Christ because they are not God nor Christ but created by God and Christ and made ministring spirits and sent forth from God to such purpose and that they are distinct from all other visible creatures is evident because they are not any of the other creatures visible or invisible but are a distinct kind of creature themselves distinctly named from them and that have distinctly some of them appeared when made visible to the sight of men without the bodys and beings of all other creatures as in those that ministred to Christ and that appeared to Daniel to Peter to Paul to Cornelius and divers others which were neither properly men nor women nor any other creature distinct from Angels or ministring spirits c. So that that question implies great ignorance and unbelief of the Scriptures as also his adding that if I can shew him any such Angel or created spirit that is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then I show some ground for such a faith this with his changing my words which were distinct from men from what is in man in other visible creatures into another form viz. distinct from him that made them and from all other creatures implies that he thinks there is no creature but what is visible or may be seen sure his other senses may confute such a fancy for did he ever see any mans Soul or see the wind that blows and yet I trow these be creatures but why will he not believe more then I can shew him Angels be of themselves invisible pitch their tents about men who yet see them not as Ps 34.7 with 2 Kin. 6.16 17. but I have shewed him in the Scripture if he have any eyes of understanding to see with that there was and truly is an Angel Gabriel sent of God and not God himself who is distinct from all other men Angels and creatures besides him they none of them being him yea many thousand such shal Christ appear with at his coming as in Mat. 16.27 2 Thes 1.7 so that his falshood and impiety appears in what followes in the answer as that the Scriptures is not a rule for any such faith nor doth speak any such thing 6. And his Answer to the 7th Query joyned with his former answer proves him a direct Sadducee to them that can understand him for as his answer to the 6th denies intimately and yet plainly enough that there be many such Angels and Spirits as the Scripture declares so his answer to the 7th denies the resurrection of the body as will appear if he will clearly speak out his minde in explication of his said answer for to that query what it is of men that shall rise again after the bodily death he answers That which shall rise againe after death out of the grave is the seeds and each seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into everlasting life and the other into condemnation which though it be the most positive answer of any he gives freest from reviling language yet cannot be understood unlesse it be known what be those two seeds whether they be not the wheat and the Tares spoken of Mat. 13.37 38 or what else they be and who sowes or sowed them and when and where they be sown and what be the graves they be in and whether they be but two seeds in all the world over or two in every man one the incorruptible seed the other the corruptible seed and whether they be sown or raised after the bodily death of men or only after some spiritual death of the feeds for I named after the bodily death and he leaves out the word bodily and so speaks equivocally and whether be each of these seeds a man seeing the Apostle saies not every seed but every man shall rise in his own order and whether did the Apostle forget one of those seeds when he saies it is sown in weaknesse it is raised in power when of two he should have said they are sown in weaknesse they are raised in power and whether is either of these seeds when it s sown a natural body and either of them when they rise a spiritual body seeing the Apostle saies it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body and what be the two bodies they shall rise with are they two in every man or be they humane bodies or bodies of men and why saies he the one into everlasting life the other into condemnation and why not unto everlasting life and unto condemnation and why is not the condemnation said to be everlasting by him as well as the life Those things I challenge him for explaining his answer before it can be seen to agree with the Apostles Doctrine of the Resurrection 7. For the eighth query he in his answer leaves out the word Bodily again and so tels us not of any hell men go into or their souls after the death of their bodies but prevaricates and hides himself again nor proves that eternal wrath shall give up any that shall be in it as it 's said hell and Death shall 〈◊〉 20.13 But if Hell be the reward of all Lyers Deceivers Hirelings and Hypocrites what will become of Richard Hubberthorne who hath told so many falshoods and delt so deceitfully and hypocritically in those his answers if he repent not let the Reader judge John Horne FINIS