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A94294 A discourse of the right of the Church in a Christian state: by Herbert Thorndike. Thorndike, Herbert, 1598-1672. 1649 (1649) Wing T1045; Thomason E1232_1; ESTC R203741 232,634 531

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Provinces were constituted by in the Babylonian and after it in the Persian Empire then by any right belonging to him among his own people such as the posterity of Zorebabel had to be Governours of the Jews that remained in Babylonia when they were privileged to live according to their own Laws by their Soveraign But whether this or that as to the point here in hand both are to the same purpose I must not passe over this place without taking into consideration the reasons upon which and the consequences to which Erastus his opinion seems to be advanced in the late sharp work de Cive where it is determined that the interpretation of the Scriptures for which I may as well say the Power of Giving Laws to the Church seeing the greatest difficulty lies in determining controversies of Faith the constitution of Pastors the Power of binding and loosing belongs to every Christian State to be exercised by the ministery of Pastors of the Church For if this may take place then is all that hath been said to no purpose And truly I must imbrace and applaud one position upon which all this proceeds that the Church to which any Right or Power of acting according to any right is attributed in the Scriptures must needs be a Society that may be assembled and therefore stands obliged to assemble But that hereupon alone it should be inferred and taken for granted that therefore a Christian State and a Christian Church are both the same thing distinguished by two severall causes and considerations when both consist of the same persons I have all the reason in the World to stand astonished For it is not the persons which are supposed here to be the same that any question can be made of neither can the Church and the State be said to be the same thing because they are all the same For we speak not here of the nature of the persons their souls or bodies or any thing that either of both is endowed with but we speak here of the quality of a State or a Church affecting all those persons together upon some voluntary act of God or of themselves or both without making any change in the nature of any person so qualified onely supposing the person whose act it is able to doe the act upon which they are qualified to be a State or a Church and by doing it to oblige or privilege the persons on whom it passes Which kinde of things are oftentimes by Philosophers Divines and Lawyers called to very good purpose Morall things Such are all manner of rights in all manner of Societies whatsoever being nothing else but abilities of doing something which are not in other men not endowed with the same So likewise seeing that all the objects of any faculty naturall or morall any habit of virtue or vice or that which is neither but consists in skill or knowledge or any perfection of nature for which a man is neither good nor bad may be denominated and qualified by the faculties or habits that are exercised upon them by the same reason as colour is said to be seen or as that is said to be right and just which is done according to justice therefore by the same common reason if there be such a thing as Holinesse in the souls of men which disposes them to reverence God by tendring him that service which may expresse it then are the Means and the Circumstances the Times the Places and the Persons by which this reverence is publickly tendred to God capable to be denominated Holy by a morall quality derived from that Holinesse which dwels in the souls of Christians and not onely capably but actually so qualified in point of right supposing that which hath been proved p. 212 that the practice of Gods people evidenced by the Scriptures proves the reverence of the same to be effectuall and necessary for the maintenance of that reverence of God in those acts of his service wherein the Holinesse of Christians consisteth This though it belong not to my present purpose I have set down upon this occasion out of a desire further to declare the nature of that Holinesse for which Times Places and Persons as also all other means which God is served by are said to be Holy and for what reason I call it p. 217. sometimes Morall sometimes Ecclesiasticall Holinesse sometimes also Relative as others many times do call it For seeing it is grounded upon the relation which is between all faculties morall or naturall between all habits of virtue and vice or whatever else and the objects which they are exercised about it is manifest how properly it is called Relative Again seeing it hath been declared that those qualifications and denominations which arise upon some act of God or man having power to oblige either others or themselves are therefore called Morall in opposition to such as make a change in the nature of mens souls and bodies when they become endowed therewith because these Morall qualities accrue without any change in the nature of them to whom they accrue therefore that Holinesse which belongs to things uncapable of that Holinesse which dwels in the souls of Christians is properly called morall Holinesse as grounded upon the Will of God appearing to have appointed the reverence of them to maintain that reverence of him wherein Holinesse consisteth And as for this reason in generall it is called morall Holinesse so it is also called Ecclesiasticall for the same reason expressed in particular as depending upon that Will of God by which Christianity and the Church and the service of God therein subsisteth To return then to my purpose which gave me occasion to declare this here seeing that when the question is made whether the Church and the State consisting of the same persons be the same thing or not there can be no question understood of the nature that is the souls and bodies of the persons which are supposed to be the same but of the Morall beeing of a State whether the same give it the quality of a Church or not 3. And seeing the beeing of such things depends upon the act by which they are constituted we have no more to enquire but this whether the same Act constitute a Church which constitutes a State And then a very little enquiry will serve to shew that though all Churches and all States subsist by the Act both of God and man yet they are severall Acts by which they are States and by which they are Churches So severall that the Church subsists by immediate revelation from God by our Lord and his Apostles which no State doth and whatsoever it is that makes any man a member of any State it is not that which makes him a Christian and so a member of the Church but something else And therefore there is a fault in the reason of the inference propounded which concludes thus that a Church must be that which hath Power to assemble the
the Apostles were at first their own Deacons before the Church allowed them some to wait on them and yet their whole function was then holy though some parts of it nearer to the end of the souls health So when Deacons were made reason inforces that they should attend on the meanest part of the Office of the Apostles but always on holy duties For the Tables which the Apostles saw first furnished themselves but were attended by the Deacons in doing it when they were made were the same which S. Paul speaks of 1 Cor. XI 20 which the Eucharist was celebrated at as the custome was daily to doe at Jerusalem Acts II. 42 46. and therefore their office by this was the same then as always it hath been since to wait upon the celebration of the Eucharist Secondly I have shewed afore that even the Apostles and their followers the Evangelists were also Deacons with as much difference as there is between the persons whom they served that is between our Lord and his Apostles on one side and the Bishop and Presbyters of a Church on the other Whereupon the Ministers of Bishops and Presbyters are called Deacons absolutely and the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any addition signifies to execute a Deacons Office 1 Tim. III 10. But the Apostles and Evangelists are called Deacons with additions signifying whose Ministers or to what speciall purpose as hath been said Thirdly when S. Paul says They that doe the office of a Deacon well purchase themselves a good step 1 Tim. II. 13. Clemens Alexandrinus and the practice of the Church interprets this step to be the rank of Presbyters Therefore they were in the next degree to it afore Fourthly it hath been shewed that they sate not but stood in the Church as attending the Bishop and Presbyters sitting and yet were imploied in the Offices of Preaching and Baptizing And accordingly in the Primitive Church a great part of the Service reading Lessons singing Psalms and some part of the Prayers were ministred by them as I have shewed in the Apostolicall form of Divine Service cap. X. Which held correspondently in the Synagogue For the Ministers and Apparitors of their Consistories were also their Deacons and ministred Divien Service in the Synagogue Whereby it appears to be the Ordinance of the Apostles that the younger sort of those that dedicated themselves to the service of the Church should be trained up in the service of the Bishop and Presbyters as well to the understanding of Christianity as to the right exercise of Ecclesiasticall Offices that in their time such as proved capable might come to govern in the Church themselves That which remains concerning the Interesse of the People in the Church will be easily discharged if we remember that it must be such as may not prejudice either the dependence of Churches or the Chief Power of the Bishop with the Presbyters in each particular Church The Law of the XII Tables Salus populi suprema lex esto though it were made for a popular State not for a Kingdome yet admits a difference between populus and plebs and requires the chief Rule to be the good both of Senate and Commons not of one part alone So likewise that which is said in the Scriptures to have been done by the Church must not therefore be imagined to be done by the People Because the Church consists of two parts called by Tertullian O●do and Plebs in the terms of latter times the Clergy and People but preserving the respective Interests of Clergy and People In the choice of Matthias it is said They set two Acts I. 23. what they but the Church in which the People were then better Christians then to abridge the Apostles but proportionably they are always to respect the Bishop and Presbyters if they will obey the Apostles that command it 1 Thess V. 12 13. Heb. XIII 7 17. So when S. Paul says Doe not ye judge those that are within 1 Cor. V. 12. speaks he to the People or to the Church that is to the Bench of Presbyters and the People in their severall interests and that not without dependence upon the Apostles The words of our Lord Dic Ecclesiae Mat. XVIII 18. make much noise At the end of my Book of the Apostolicall form of Divine Service p. 428 you have a passage of S. Augustine Cont. Epist Parmen III. 2. that Excommunication is the sentence of the Church And yet I suppose no man hath the confidence to dispute that in S. Augustines time it was the sentence of the People So the Excommunication of Andronicus in Synesius his seven and fiftieth Epistle is intitled to the Church yet no man imagines that the People then did excommunicate Is not the case the same in the Synagogue Moses is commanded to speak to the Congregation of the children of Israel and he speaks to the Elders Exod. XII 2 25. does Moses disobey God in so doing or does he understand the command of God better then this opinion would have him in speaking to the Elders who he knew were to act on behalf of the People The Law commands the Congregation to offer for ignorance Lev. IV. 13 14. Num. XV. 22 24. how shall all the Congregation offer Maimoni answers in the Title of Errors cap. XII XIII that the great Consistory offers as often as they occasion the breach of the Law by Teaching that is interpreting it erroneously In the Law of the Cities of Refuge it is said The Congregation shall judge and the Congregation shall deliver the manslayer Num. XXXV 35 36. The Elders of the City of Refuge were to judge in presence and in behalf of the People whether the manslayer was capable of the privilege of the City of Refuge or not as you reade Joshua XX. 4 6. seeing then that these things being done by the Elders are said to be done by the Synagogue or Assembly of the People in behalf of whom they are done is it a wrong to the Scriptures when we say that which they report to be done by the Church was acted by the chief power of the Apostles and Presbyters with consent of the People For it is manifest in the Scriptures that in the Apostles times all publique Acts of the Church were passed at the publique Assemblies of the same as Ordinations Acts I. 23. VI. 3 6. Excommunications Mat. XVIII 18 19 20. 1 Cor. V. 4. 2 Cor. II. 10. Councels Acts XV. 4 27. Other Acts 2 Cor. VIII 19. And herewith agrees the Primitive custome of the Church for divers ages to be seen in a little Discourse of the Learned Blondell Of the Right of the People in the Church published of late And can this be thought to no purpose unlesse it dissolve the Unity of the Church or that obedience to the Clergy which God commandeth Is it nothing to give satisfaction to the People of the integrity of the proceedings of the Church and by the same mean
Provinces as having Commission to conclude them in which case they must needs be considerable according to the Provinces for which they stood So in all things which may concern the Whole not onely every mans rank of Bishop Presbyter or Deacon is to be considered but also the eminence of the Church in which he bears the same So that by this reason nothing hinders a Presbyter of some chief Church to be of more consideration to the Whole then a Bishop of some mean Church such as we spoke of in Africk And therefore it would be inconsequent that the determinations of Synods should passe indifferently by the Votes of Bishops unlesse we suppose that consideration is had of the chief Churches and this consideration answered in the eminence of that respect which the Bishops of those chief Churches enjoy inswaying the determinations of those Synods to which they concur And this consideration might perhaps have served to take off part of S. Hieromes displeasure against Bishops grounded upon the Power which their Deacons had by their means above Presbyters which he in regard of the great difference between the two degrees in generall thinks to be so great an inconvenience Epist LXXXV ad Euagrium For though it is most true in regard of the Presbyters and Deacons of the same Church that it was a disorder that Deacons in regard of their neernesse to the Bishops should take upon them above Presbyters yet if we compare the Deacon of a chief Church with the Presbyter of a small country Parish no man can say that he is of lesse consideration to the Whole Church in regard of his rank unlesse he mean to make Steven or Philip Titus or Timothy or any of those that waited on the Apostles in person and were properly their Deacons as I have said in assisting them to preach the Gospel where they came to be meaner persons in the Church then one of those Presbyters which Paul and Barnabas Titus or Timothy Ordained in the Churches of those Cities where they came To that which I say p. 92. to prove that the word Angel in the Epistle to the VII Churches Apoc. II III. being an obvious and proper metaphor to signifie a Bishop or Presbyter cannot therefore be used to signifie a College of Presbyters the word being no collective nor any construction inforcing it to be used for a collective in all that Epistle I adde here the comparison of two passages by which it may be gathered for what reason and in what consideration the Spirit speaketh to the Body of those Churches in the Epistle directed to the Angels of them and by consequence who those Angels are The first is that of S. Paul to Titus II. 10. A man that is an Heretick after the first and second admonition avoid For is it S. Pauls purpose to command that onely Titus avoid those whom he should declare Hereticks Surely that would be to no great effect unlesse we understand that by virtue of this precept both Titus is enabled to charge the Churches under him to avoid them and they thereupon obliged to doe it The other is the Epistle under the name of Ignatius to Polycarpus wherein after such advise as he thought fit for Polycarpus without turning his speech from him to another person he proceeds to exhort his people with such instructions as he found to bee most requisite Which feems to be the reason why many count that Epistle counterfeit and none of Ignatius his own though for my part I confesse I am not yet perswaded to think so not onely because of the character both of the matter and language of it which seemeth to me to carry the stamp of Apostolicall upon it as the rest of Ignatius but also particularly because of the example of this Epistle of S. John to the VII Churches wherein it is plain he involves both Pastor and flock in the same praises reproofs advises and exhortations the reasons being the same in both because both sent to be read to the People in the Church as the Epistle to the Colossians and the Laodiceans Coloss IV. 15. and as the Epistle of Clemens to the Corinthians Eusebius says was wont to be read in that Church in his time Now if the instructions concerning the people be addressed to Titus and Polycarp is it not because of some eminence of authority in them by which they might be brought into effect among their people How much more that which is addressed unto the Angels of VII Churches being a style apt to signifie a person of eminent authority over others but never used to signifie a Body of persons much lesse with parallel authority among themselves It is commonly conceived that the Souls under the Altar which we reade of Apoc. VI. 10. were seen by S. John lying under the Altar of Burnt Sacrifices at the foot whereof the rest of the blood that was not sprinkled on the Altar was poured out and the blood being the life or Soul of living creatures in the language of the Scriptures that therefore the souls of those that were slain for the profession of Christianity are seen by S. John under the Altar Against this apprehension I allege p. 95. that it is not the Altar of burnt Sacrifices but the Altar of Incense within the Tabernacle but without the Vail which is represented in these Visions correspondent to the Primitive fashion of Churches where the Communion Table called also the Altar because of the Sacrifice of the Crosse represented upon it stood in the midst of that compasse which the Seats of the Bishop and Priests did enclose For though in the Temple the people prayed without the Sanctuary the Priest whose Office it was at the same time offering Incense with their Prayers yet in the Church where all the people are within the Sanctuary as Priests the XXIV Presbyters are described with golden Vials full of Incense which is the peoples prayers as David saith Let my prayer be set forth in thy presence as the Incense Apoc. V. 8. and besides the Angel puts Incense upon his Censer to the prayers of the Saints Apoc. VIII 3. therefore his fire is from the Altar of Incense within the Tabernacle though without the Vail Besides it is not imaginable how the souls of those that were slain could appear to S. John in Vision of Prophesie lying under the Altar of Burnt Sacrifices where the bloud of Sacrifices was poured out and that in such a multitude as we know there was of the Primitive Martyrs Especially seeing the circumstances of the Text inforces that they are the same Souls which first cry for vengeance and have long white Robes given them because they are not presently satisfied Apoc. VI. 9 10 11. and which are afterwards described standing and praising God in the white Robes that were given them afore Apoc. VII 9. And therefore when they are said to be seen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the meaning is not that they were seen lying