dust and ashes Reply 1. It is an exorbitant Hyperbole to make every passage of spirituall whoredome a sinne infinitely transcendent above bodily whoredome For spirituall whoredome is not infinite in the act of it but onely in respect of the object of it to wit in respect of the infinite God against whom it is committed And is not bodily whoredome infinite in that respect also Can a man defile himselfe with bodily whoredome and not sinne against the infinite God What saith Joseph Gen. 39.9 2. What if spirituall whoredome though lesse evident be more sinfull then bodily The nature of true Evangelicall Repentance standeth not in seeing and bewailing every sinne no nor alwayes of the greatest but of those which are most evident and notorious A Christian man may more safely omit repentance of greater sins if unknowne then of lesse sinnes knowne I suppose the Israelites were guiltie of many Idolatries and superstitions in the dayes of Samuel yet their repentance was chiefly fastned upon their asking of a King of which they were then principally convinced 1 Sam. 12.19 And such Repentance was then accepted of the Lord and of Samuel ver 22 23. The very truth is the ground and roote of the Examiners Error in this case is That he maketh Church-Covenant to be no better then a Covenant of workes whereas indeed if Church-Covenant be not a branch of the Covenant of grace the Churches of Christ are not built upon Christ In a Covenant of workes all sinnes must be avoyded or if not avoyded yet repented of expresly and the greatest sinnes most But in Evangelicall Repentance God dealeth not with us after our sinnes nor rewardeth us according to our Iniquities Psal 103.10 The Grace of Christ is not given either to his Church or to any Christian upon the perfection of our Repentance nor upon our Repentance of our greatest sinnes in the greatest measure But if the heart be truly humbled for any knowne sinne as sinne though the sinne knowne be often lesse hainous then others unknowne yet God accepteth his own worke and putteth away all sinne in the acknowledgement of one Yea in sinnes that be knowne the compunction of the heart is sometimes more expressed for the occasions and inducements of the sinne which are lesse hainous then for the greater sinnes which are more grievous and dangerous Solomon in his solemne Repentance in the Booke of Ecclesiastes doth more expresly bewaile his entanglement with lewd women Eccles 7.27 28. then all his Idolatrous Temples and worship which were erected and maintained at his charge By the Examiners Doctrine Solomon had never been received and restored to the Church upon that Repentance His second Answer is That though the converted Jewes did not see all the leavenings of the Pharisees yet they mourned for killing of Christ and embraced him in his Worship Ministery Government c. and thereupon necessarily followeth a withdrawing from the Church Ministery and Worship of the false Christ c. Reply This answer doth not reach the defence of his cause to wit That it is absolutely necessary unto Church-fellowship to see and bewaile not onely actuall whoredomes but also whorish speeches gestures appearances provocations Yet here he granteth that the converted Jewes did not see all the leavenings of the Pharisees which yet were such as in the end of that Paragraph he implyeth they had deteined them under a false Christ But whereas he saith that they by embracing Christ in his Worship and Ministery there necessarily followed a withdrawing from the Church Ministery and worship of the false Christ It may truely be Replyed 1. That he will not grant us that liberty that upon our embracing of Christ in his worship Ministery there necessarily followeth our withdrawing from the Church Ministery and Worship wherein we had been formerly polluted in any sort Is not this to deteine the glorious Truth of our Lord Jesus with respect of Persons 2. It is evident by the Story that some of those members of the Church of Hierusalem who had been leavened by the sect of the Pharisees they did neither see nor bewaile nor did come off from fellowship with the Pharisees in their Ministery and false Doctrine which taught the necessitie of Circumcision and of the whole Law of Moses to justification and salvation Acts 15.1.5 As for the confession of sinne by the Disciples unto John Baptist Mat. 3. and by the Gentiles unto Paul Act. 19. though it be not said that the one sort confessed their Pharisaicall pollutions nor the other all their Deeds Yet saith he if both these confest their notorious sinnes as Mr. Cotton confesseth why not as well their notorious sinnes against God their Idolatries superstitions worships c Surely throughout the whole Scripture the matters of God and his worship are first and most tenderly handled c. Answ It is not true that the matters of Gods worship and defects there are alwayes most tenderly acknowledged throughout the Confessions of the Saints in Scripture Solomon in his Repentance was most sparing of confession of his Idolatrous Temples and worships And the People in Samuel did more repent of asking a King then of all their other sinnes and yet their Idolatries were then flagrant 1 Sam. 12 9 10 11. Besides wee never reade of such deepe Humiliation of David for carting the Arke after the manner of the Philistims as of his bodily adultery with Bathshebah and murder of Vriah The substance of my other Answer to his former Objection which was to prove a necessitie lying upon godly men to see and bewaile their pollutions in a former Church-fellowship before they can be fit matter for a new It was to this purpose that we have not been wanting through the guidance of the grace of Christ to performe that which he pleadeth for so farre as God hath called us to it the which I expressed in my Letter in two particulars 1. That the body of our members doe in generall Professe that the reason of their coming over to us was that they might be freed from the bondage of humane Inventions and Ordinances under which as their soule groaned there so they have professed their sorrow so farre as through ignorance or infirmitie they have been defiled there 2. That in our daily meetings especially in the times of our solemne Humiliations we doe generally all of us bewaile all our former Pollutious wherewith we have defiled our selves and the holy things of God in our former Administrations and Communions the which we have rather chosen to doe then to talke of and therefore doe marvell that he should so resolutely renounce us for that which he knew not whether we had neglected or no and before he had admonished us of our sinfulnesse in such neglect if it had been found amongst us Whereto his Answer is That we make no mention what such Inventions and Ordinances what such Administrations and Communions were which we confessed and bewailed Reply And yet lest he should
Jesus onely Defender Reply 1. But he that corrupteth a soule with a corrupt religion or worship layeth a spreading leaven which corrupteth the State The Idolatry began in the House of Micah corrupted Laish Judges chap. 17. and chap. 18. And that was the beginning of sinne to the Daughter of Zion Micah 1.13 And that Apostacy was the captivity of the Land As in the New-Testament the worship of Images was the advancement of the Turkes and the ruine of Christian States Rev. 9.14 to 21. When therefore the corruption or destruction of soules is a destruction also of lives liberties estates of men lex talionis calleth for not onely soule for soule but life for life Reply 2. False Prophets in the Old-Testament did but corrupt the soules of some and it may be did not corrupt them neither but attempted it onely And yet amongst Gods people where lex talionis was much attended the Law was Thine eye shall not spare him Deut. 13. The reason of which execution is not fetched from any typicall holinesse of the Land but from the dangerous wickednesse of the attempt to thrust away a soule from God which is a greater injury then to deprive a man of bodily life Discusser But dead men cannot die nor be infected Naturall men the civill State the world are dead in sinne c. Defender Reply 1. Dead men may be made worse by corrupt Teachers two-fold more the children of hell then before Matth. 23.15 And therefore such as so corrupt them are worthy in a way of due proceeding of a two-fold death Reply 2. Such as professe the truth of the Doctrine and Worship of Christ they live a kind of spirituall life though not such as accompanieth salvation Else how are false Teachers and such as are led by them said to be twice dead plucked up by the roots Jude ver 12. And therefore it is not true that such as being in a naturall state are dead in sinne annot be infected nor die againe Discusser As in the common infection of the plague so in the infection of heresie none can be strucke deadly but whom God hath thereunto ordained c. Defender Reply 1. No more can any man be murthered but whom God hath ordained thereunto But it is a prophane sacriledge to excuse or alleviate the punishment of sinne by Gods eternall predestination Was the sinne of Herod or the Jewes or of Pontius Pilate any whit the lesse because they did nothing against Christ but what the hand of God and his Counsell had fore-determined to be done Acts 4.29 Sure it is Christ aggravateth the sinne of Judas and of the High-Priests and Elders of the Jewes by this Argument that Pilate could doe nothing against him but as it was given him from above Therefore saith he he that delivered me to thee hath the greater sinne John 19.11 Reply 2. The Discusser himselfe acknowledgeth That though in a common plague or infection none are smitten or die but such as are ordained thereunto yet it is not onely every mans duty but the common duty of the Magistrates to prevent infection and to preserve the common health of the place by removing infectious persons into solitary tabernacles Discusser True but the meanes God hath appointed for preservation from spirituall infection and perdition are spirituall such as God directeth to Rev. 2. Tit. 3.10 11. Rom. 16.17 But the Lord Jesus never appointed the civill sword for either Antidote or Remedy as an addition to those Spirituals The Remedy which God preseribed to the Angell of the Church of Pergamus It were a Babylonish confusion to interpret it as sent to the Governour of the City of Pergamus Defender Subordinata and so Coordinata non pugnant It is true Christ hath appointed spirituall meanes for the avoiding and preventing the infection of heresies so hath he also for the preventing and avoiding all offences in Church-members But that hindreth not the lawfull and necessary use of a civill sword for the punishment of some such offences as are subject to Church-censure If indeed the Ordinances of Christ in the Church doe prevaile to the avoiding and healing of heresies there is no need of the civill sword for that end But it often falleth out otherwise as 1. That when the Church hath cast out an Heretick yet he still remaineth obstinate and proceedeth to seduce and destroy the faith of some it may be of many as did Hymeneus and Philetus 2 Tim. 2.17 18. If the Magistrates sword doe here rust in the scabberd such leaven may leaven the whole Masse of a City or Countrey As by this meanes Arrianisme leavened the world by the indulgence of Constantius Ingemuit Orbis Christianus miratus est factum se esse Arrianum 2. It may be the Heretick was never any member of the Church and then though the Church may lay in some Antidotes and Purges to preserve or recover their Members yet how shall they succour such as are not subject to their censures Or how shall they prevent the spreading of this noisome leprofie in private Conventicles But the Lord Jesus never appointed the civill sword for an Antidote or Remedy in such a case Answ It is evident the civill sword was appointed for a remedy in this case Deut. 13. And appointed it was by that Angell of Gods presence whom God promised to send with his people as being unwilling to goe along with them himselfe Exod. 33.2 3. And that Angell was Christ whom they tempted in the wildernesse 1 Cor. 10.9 And therefore it cannot truely be said that the Lord Jesus never appointed the civill sword for a remedy in such a case For he did expressely appoint it in the Old-Testament nor did he ever abrogate it in the New The reason of the Law which is the life of the Law is of eternall force and equity in all Ages Thou shult surely kill him because be hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God Deut. 13.9 10. This reason is of morall that is of universall and perpetuall equity to put to death any Apostate seducing Idolater or Heretick who seeketh to thrust away the soules of Gods people from the Lord their God If Magistrates be the Ministers of God in the New-Testament as Paul calleth them Rom. 13.4 And Ministers of God to execute vengeance on him that doeth evill surely either this is no evill to seeke to thrust away Gods people from him or the Magistrate beareth not the sword in vaine to execute vengeance on such an evill doer Yea but such an evill is evill onely to the inner man not to the civill State Answ But if a man imagine evill against the Lord it is a destructive evill to a whole City yea to a Pagan City and God will visit such an evill with such an affliction as shall be no lesse then utter destruction to such a City It shall not rise up the second time Nahum 1.9.11 Discusser But the eivill Magistrate hath his charge of the bodies
this Argument the Discusser bestirreth himselfe to draw up sixe Answers 1. From the large extent of soule-killing which may reach to many sinnes that are not capitall 1 Cor. 8.11 2. From the dissimilitude of bodily and spirituall Death A body being killed can dye but once but a soule killed may recover 3. From the different punishment which Christ hath provided for soule-killers to wit the two edged Sword which cometh out of his mouth which is able to cut downe Heresie and to kill the soules of Hereticks everlastingly 4. From the toleration which Christ himselfe giveth to such soule-killers or soule-wounders in the Parable of Tares Matth. 13. 5. From the impossibility of killing any soule by any Heretick not the soules of naturall men for they are dead already nor can false Teachers so much prevent the meanes of spirituall Life as doth the force of a materiall Sword either imprisoning the soules of men in a Nationall-State-Religion or cutting them off immediately without any longer meanes of Repentance Nor can there be a killing of the soules of men alive in Christ partly by reason of the sufficiency and power of Spirituall Ordinances to preserve that Life in them against all Enemies Partly from the Immortality of the spirituall Life in Christ which can no more dye then Christ himselfe who is alive for ever 6. From the possbility of a false Teachers and a Wolves recovery from the Estate of a soule-killer to become a soule-saver as it was in the case of Paul For a just Reply to all these let me first premise foure things and then speake to the Arguments in Order 1. It is not every murther of the body that is a capitall crime but murder executed in some grosse Attempt For he that hateth his brother is a man-slayer or murderer 1 Joh. 3.15 and yet not for that to be put to death 2. Murder unadvisedly committed when the Act done was not intended is not a capitall crime there were Cities of Refuge provided in such a case Ezod 21.13 3. The very Attempt of murder in the abuse of an Ordinance of God is a capitall crime As in a case a man shall rise up before a Court of Justice to beare false witnesse against his Neighbour of some capitall offence this very attempt of killing his Neighbour by the abuse of publick Justice is a capitall crime Deut. 19.18 to 21. 4. The murther of the soule is not the onely Formalis Ratio as they call it the onely proper cause of an Hereticks capitall Crime but chiefly his bitter roote of Apostacie from God not onely falling off himselfe from God but seducing others to fall away from him These foure things being premised come wee now to consider of the severall Answers given by the Discusser to Augustines Argument His first Answer reacheth not the point for as every killing of the body is not a capitall crime so neither is every killing of the soule but such as is more voluntary and presumptuous and joyned with some grosse and murderous attempt His second Answer falleth short in this respect that though a soule wounded and killed may recover againe yet the very murderous Attempt of killing a soule in abusing an Ordinance of God in corrupting Religion is a capitall crime whether the soule dye of that wound or no or if it dye whether it be recovered or no. Thine eye shall not spare him because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God Deut 13.10 Though hee did not thrust thee away yet because he sought to doe it hee shall dye His third Answer hath been removed above Church-censures are sufficient to heale the Heretick if he belong to God and to remove the guilt of his wickednesse from the Church but not sufficient to prevent his further spreading of the Leaven of his corruption nor sufficient to cleanse the Common-wealth from the guilt of such Rebellion as hath been taught by him against the Lord. His fourth Answer taken from Christs toleration of the Tares hath be en largely and as I conceive fully refelled above His fifth Answer hath also been cleared already If the Answer were good it would evacuate not onely Augustines Argument but Pauls also 1 Cor 8.11 Paul disswadeth from eating things sacrificed to Idols in Idols Temples The Argument to disswade it is from the offence thereby given to the Conscience of the weake and that backed and strengthned from the haynousnesse of the sinne of offence to Conscience It is the murder or perishing of a weake Brothers soule Now if this Answer of the Discusser might stand it would make the Argument of the Apostle of none effect For either this weake Brother is a naturall man dead in sinne already and then no man can kill him or else he is in Christ and then his Life is immortall and Christ hath provided Ordinances powerfully sufficient to prevent or heale such deadly Dangers It is an high presumptuous tempting of God and wanton treading under foote the precious soules of men for whom Christ dyed to wound and as much as in us lyeth to kill the soules of men upon pretence the Lord can save them and raise them againe by his all-sufficient Grace It is a putting of feare where none is that the punishment of obstinate seducing Hereticks with the materiall Sword is the imprisoning of the soules of men to a Nationall Religion for if the Religion of the Nation be good it is no Imprisonment if naught there should be no punishment And it is a like causlesse Feare that the cutting off of Hereticks will cut off men immediately without any longer meanes of Repentance for if they belong to God God will give them Repentance before they goe hence but whether they belong to God or no the revealed will of God is fulfilled in their just Execution The last Answer falleth as short of strength as any of the former For if men be such Wolves and Blasphemers as Paul was before his Conversion neither the Law of God or man would put such an one to Death who sinned of ignorance and walked as himselfe professeth with all good Conscience even in his former evill times Acts 23.1 But as for such as Apostate from the known Truth of Religion and seeke to subvert the Foundation of it and to draw away others from it to plead for their Toleration in hope of their Conversion is as much as to proclaime a generall pardon for all malefactors save such onely as sinne against the Holy Ghost for he that is a wilfull murderer and Adulterer now may come to be converted and dye a martyr hereafter CHAP. 73. A Reply to his Chap. 76. discussing the Testimony of Optatus Discusser THe Answerer alledgeth from Optatus his third Booke that he justified Macarius who had put some Hereticks to death for that he had done no more herein then what Moses Phincas and Elias had done before him But these are shafts usually drawen from the Quiver of the
and goods of the Subject as the Spirituall-Officers of Christs City or Kingdome have the charge of their soules and soule-safety Defender Reply 1. If it were true That the Magistrate hath charge onely of the bodies and goods of the Subject yet that might iustly excite to watchfulnesse against such pollutions of Religion as tend to Apostacy For if the Church and People of God fall away from God God will visit the City and Countrey with publicke calamity if not captivity for the Churches sake The Idolatry and Image-worship of Christians brought in the Turkish captivity upon the Cities and Countryes of Asia and upon some of Europe also as hath been shewed above Reply 2. It is a carnall and worldly and indeed an ungodly imagination to confine the Magistrates charge to the bodies and goods of the Subiect and to exclude them from the care of their soules Did ever God commit the charge of the body to any Governours to whom he did not commit in his way the care of soules also Hath God committed to Parents the charge of their childrens bodies and not the care of their soules To Masters the charge of their servants bodies and not of their soules to Captaine 's the charge of their souldiers bodies and not of their soules shall the Captaines suffer false worship yea idolatry publickly professed and practised in the campe and yet looke to prosper in the Battell The Magistrates to whom God hath committed the charge of bodies and outward man of the Subiect are they not also to take care to procure faithfull Teachers to be sent amongst them Jehosaphat tooke faithfull care for the soules of his people in this kind 2 Chron. 17.7 8 9. Neither did he this as a Type of Christ but as a Servant of Christ Those things are said to be done as Types of Christ which being ceremoniall duties were afterwards done by Christ in his owne Person and so were in him accomplished and abolished And it would be sacriledge to performe the same after him But let the conscience of any sincere Christian iudge whether it would be sacriledge in a godly Magistrate to procure the sending forth of godly Preachers into all the blind corners of his countrey The truth is Church-Governous and civill-governours doe herein stand paralell one to another The Chuch-Governours though to them be chiefely committed the charge of soules as their adaequate obiects yet in order to the good of the soules of their people to dehort from idlenesse negligence from intemperancy in meates and drinkes from oppression and deceit and therein provide both for the health of their bodies and the safety of their estates So civill-governours though to them be chiefely committed the bodies and goods of the people as their adaequate obiect yet in order to this they may and ought to procure spirituall helpes to their soules and to prevent such spirituall evills as that the prosperity of Religion amongst them might advance the prosperity of the civill State Reply 3. I cannot but with griefe observe the sinfull guile of the Discusser who whilest he taketh off all charges of soules from the civill Magistrates and layeth it upon Church-Governours he taketh it off from Church-Governours too that so the whole charge of precious soules for whom Christ dyed might utterly fall to the ground For how shall Church-Governours take the charge of soules upon them if there be no Church-Governours And how shall there be Church-Governours where there be no Churches If Churches be all dissipated and rooted out from the face of the Earth by the Apostacy of Antichrist and none to be gathered againe till new Apostles or Evangelists be sent abroad for such a worke then there be now neither Churches nor Church-Governours nor Church-censures either to censure Hereticks or to fetch in those stray soules whom they have scatter'd And then rejoyce yee Hereticks and all yee Idolaters and Seducers and goe on and make havock of the sheep of Christ like ravenous Wolves you may now doe it impunè without feare or danger It is neither for Civill Governours nor Church-Governours to meddle with you Not for Civill Governours for they are not to judge nor punish in matters of Religion Nor for Church-Governours for there are neither Churches nor Church-Governours extant now upon the face of the Earth But woe be to you poore sheepe and Lambes of Christ Jesus you are now indeed truly become the sheep of the slaughter your Possessours may slay you and plead themselves not guilty Zach. 11.4 5. not guilty before the Civill Barre for their crime is exempted from civill cognizance not guilty before the Churches Tribunall for there be no Churches to call them to account CHAP. 35. A Reply to his 35. Chap. Discusser IF it were the Magistrates duty or office to punish Hereticks then is he both a Temporall and Ecclesiasticall Officer Defender It followeth not unlesse the Magistrate were to punish them with Ecclesiasticall censures which he neither doth nor may doe The punishments which he inflicteth on them are meerely Civill whether imprisonment banishment or death Discusser That Doctrine and distinction that a Magistrate may punish an Heretick civilly will not here avayle For what is Babell if this be not confusedly to punish Corporall or Civill offences with spirituall or Church-censures the offender not being a member of it or to punish soule or spirituall offences with Corporall or Temporall weapons proper to Delinquents against the Civill State Defender It is no Babell or Babilonish confusion to punish corporall or civill offences with Spirituall or Church-censures What if a Brother be a striker an oppressour a murderer a fornicator or Adulterer all these are corporall and civill offences But shall not therefore the Church punish these with spirituall and Church-censures Then the Apostle was mistaken who directeth so to doe 1 Cor 5.11 why the Discusser putteth in that parenthesis the offender not being a member of it I cannot tell sure I am it is nothing to the purpose For as the Church cannot punish any offendor unlesse he be a member of the Church so neither may the Civill Magistrate punish an Heretick or other spirituall offendor unlesse he be a member of his Common-wealth And if it be no confusion to punish civill offences with Church-censures it is no confusion to punish spirituall offences with civill censures And the reason of both these is the same there be sundry civill offences which are also transgressions of the Rule of the word and so offences to the Consciences of the Church and so justly subject to Church-censure There be also offences to the Order and peace of the Church which tend likewise to provoke wrath against a Civill State As the King of Persia said Whatsoever is commanded by the God of Heaven for the House of God let it bediligently done for why should there bewrath against the King and his Sonnes Ezra 7.3 If offences to the Church doe provoke wrath against the Civill State it is no
confusion in the Civill State to punish such Discusser Woe were it with the Civill Magistrate if together with the common care and charge of the Common-wealth the bloud of every soule that perisheth should cry against him unlesse he should say with Paul Acts 20. I am cleare from the bloud of all men c. Defender It is not the bloud of every soule that perisheth that can cry against a Magistrate unlesse the soule perish by some such neglect of duty in the Magistrate which God requireth of him for the good of the soules of his people Of which Duties there be two sorts 1. To seeke out and procure meanes of Grace for them so farre as they are capable in Gods way 2. To remove meanes of their corruption and pollution such as Idolls openly erected and Idolatrous false Teachers perverting the people If in both these the Magistrate be faithfull though thousands of soules may perish under his Government yet he is innocent from the bloud of them all and may so professe with Paul Discusser I acknowledge the Magistrate ought to cherish as a Foster Father the Lord Jesus in his Truth in his Saints to cleave unto them himselfe to countenance them unto the Death yea also to breake the Teeth of the Lyons who offer civill violence and injurie unto them But to see all his Subjects Christians to keep such a Church or Christians in the purity of worship and see them doe their duty this belongeth to the head of the body the Lord Jesus and such spirituall Officers as he hath to this purpose deputed Reply 1. What is said of Spirituall Officers deputed by Christ to see the Church to doe her Duty is but a pretence when he acknowledgeth no Church nor spirituall Officers in the Church deputed by Christ extant upon the face of the Earth Reply 2. What Reason can the Discusser give why the Magistrate should breake the teeth of the Lyons who offer civill violence to the Church and Saints and not breake the teeth of the ravenous wolves false Prophets who offer violence to their soules Doubtlesse those ravenous wolves that make havock of their soules are farre more mischievous then the Lyons be that offer violence to their bodies The Romane pagan Emperours who like Lions persecuted the Church 2 Tim. 4.17 they by persecution increased it though against their wills But the Romane Popish Bishops that like ravenous wolves devoured their soules left the Church of Christ scarce visible though visible and them a very small remnant though a remnant It may be matter of just wonderment why Antichrist should find more favours in the Discussers eyes then an ignorant Pagan when the one hateth Christ more bitterly and maketh farre more waste of the Church and Saints of Christ then doth the other Is it because his owne Spirit doth more symbolize with Antichrist then with Caesar Rather in secret supplanting then in open persecuting the Churches and Ordinances of Christ Beply 3. We doe not say that it is a part of the Magistrates duty to see all his Subjects to become Christians if they were Pagans before though wee say it is his Duty to neglect no good meanes to help them onward to the knowledge and faith of Christ Jesus But why doth the Discusser shake this duty out of the Magistrates to see that the Church and the Christians under his Government should walke in purity of worship at least not so farre to degenerate and apostate as to provoke Christ to depart from them Can he hope that such Christians will be faithfull and loyall to their Prince whom he seeth to grow false and disloyall to their God Surely the Land of Ismael though it had some peculiar and and typicall Holinesse belonging to it yet no other then what did prefigure the Holinesse of the Church which is as holy to Christ and ought to be as holy to us as the Land of Israel was to them If therefore it was the duty of Jehosaphat Hezekiah and Isaiah to reduce the people of Israel from their backslidings because they were an holy people 2 Chron. 19.4 Surely the like Duty lyeth upon all Godly Christian Princes to reduce their backsliding Churches to their Primitive Purity Let no man say that as the Holy Land of Israel was a Type of Holy Church So these Princes were Types of the Lord Jesus to whom alone it belongeth to see Churches and Christians to doe their duty in Purity of worship For though David and Solomon were Types of Christ and so the Scripture holdeth them forth yet the Scripture giveth no hint that the other Kings either of Israel or Judah were Types Not of Israel for they were all Apostates nor of Judah for if the Kings of Judah as Kings of Judah to wit in respect of their Regall Estate over the Church if they were all of them Types of Christ then Apostates from Christ were Types of Christ For many of the Kings of Judah were Apostates from Christ as well as the Kings of Israel Yea if they were all Types of Christ then Christ is the Antitype and by accomplishing such types hath abolished them all so that now it were sacrilegious and Antichristian usurpation for any Kings to be set over Christians or the people of God For the Body being come Types and shadowes vanish But what if they were all types of Christ in respect of their Kingly office over the Church alone were they therefore types of Christ in all the Kingly Offices which they performed Then it was typicall in Solomon to put Joab a Murderer to death and Adonijab a Traytor And then it will be unlawfull for Christian Princes to put Murderers or Traitors to death Or if you say these were civill crimes But Idolatry and Heresie which Asa Joash and Josiah punished with death were spirituall crimes and therefore the Kings of Judah in punishing these latter were types of Christ not so in the former this is spoken gratis For whatsoever the Kings of Judah did as types of Christ Christ being the Antitype might more full and lively performe it in his owne person But certaine it is he put no man to death in his owne person all the dayes of his flesh Why therefore may it not rather be said that whatsoever the Kings of Judah lawfully did whether against the Transgressours of the first or second Table they did it not as types of Christ but as servants of Christ betrusted with the care of the welfare both of Church and Common-wealth and therefore as patternes and examples to Christian Magistrates And indeed many of the Kings of Israel as they were Kings over a Common-wealth which was also a Church so they were Kings also over sundry Pagan Nations round about them as were David and Solomon Asa and Jehosaphat Joash and Josiah And though none of them compelled the Pagan Nations to become Proselites to the Church of Israel no more then Christian Kings may compell Pagans to become Christians or men without
had been then but on his way to Ephesus which is a narrow point of time it is more then propable if Timothy had been then at Ephesus he would have said Tychicus have I sent to thee to Ephesus CHAP. 39. A Reply to his 39. Chap. Discusser BVt from this place in Timothy 2 Tim. 2.25 in particular I argue thus 1. If the Civill Magistrates be Christians or Members of the Church able to prophesie to the Church of Christ then they are bound by this command of Christ to suffer opposition to their Doctrine with meeknesse and gentlenesse waiting if God peradventure will give them Repentance So also it pleaseth the Answerer to acknowledge in these words It becometh not the spirit of the Gospel to convert Aliens to the Faith such as the Samaritans and unconverted persons whether in Ephesus or Creete with Fire and Sword Defender The Answerer is still of the same mind though he might strike in upon the advantage that if the Magistrate be also a Prophet he may doe some things as a Magistrate which he may not doe as a Prophet yet he willingly acknowledgeth that if a Magistrate be also a Prophet yea whether he be a Prophet or no he ought not to seeke to subdue and convert Aliens to the Faith by Fire and Sword Discusser Secondly if the Oppositions be within and the Church-members become scandalous in Doctrine I speake not of scandalls in the Civill State which the civill Magistrate ought to punish It is the Lord onely as the Scripture in Timothy implyeth who is able to give them Repentance and to recover them out of Satans snare c. It is true the civill Sword may make a whole Nation of Hypocrites as the Lord complaineth Isay 10. and as befell our Native Country in a few scores of yeares in the severall Reignes of Henry 7. Henry 8. King Edward Queen Mary Queene Elizabeth under whom our Nation was as ready to change the fashion of their Religions as of their Suits of Apparell which hath been their sinfull shame Defender If Opposition rise from within from the Members of the Church I doe not beleive it to be lawfull for the Magistrate to seeke to subdue and convert them to be of his mind by the civill Sword But rather to use all spirituall meanes for their conviction and conversion But if the Opposition still continue in Doctrine and Worship and that against the vitals and Fundamentalls of Religion whether by Heresie of Doctrine or Idolatry in Worship and shall proceed to seeke the Seduction of others I doe beleive the Magistrate is not to tolerate such opposion against the Truth in Church-members or in any Professours of the Truth after due conviction from the word of Truth Nor is it an Objection of any weight that neither the Magistrate nor his Sword can give Repentance unto such For neither can he give Repentance unto such persons as are scandalous to the civill State whom yet notwithstanding the Discusser himselfe acknowledgeth the civill Magistrate ought to punish Though the civill Sword should not make the opposers Hypocrites yet better tolerate Hypocrites and Tares then Bryars and Thornes In such cases the civill Sword doth not so much attend the conversion of wicked Seducers as the prevention of the seduction of honest minds by their meanes What the Kings and Queens of England have done in former or later times either by violent Persecution of the Truth or in preposterous maintenance of the Truth we have cause rather to bewaile it and so hath the Discusser too if he be an English man then to justifie it as also bewaile the like vanity justly complained of in sundry of our English Nation to be as ready to change the fashion of their Religion as of their Rayment And yet he cannot be ignorant that the Lord hath chosen to himselfe sundry faithfull witnesses out of that Nation who have continued stedfast unto the death in the Profession of the Truth and have not been carried away either with the feare of civill Sword or with the deceitfull insinuations of unstable but seducing Teachers to depart from the simplicity and Truth of the Gospel But howsoever wofull and wonderfull changes have been made of Religion in England in the Reigne of foure or five Princes yet it is no more then befell the Church of Judah in the dayes of Ahaz and Hezekiah Manasseh and Josiah yet the Prophets never upbraided them with the civill Magistrater Power in causes of Religion as the cause of it Better some vicissitudes in Religion then a constant continuance in Idolatry and Popery by Princes referring all causes of Religion to Church-men The Prophecie of Englands Revolt againe to Popery wanteth Scripture Light CHAP. 40. A Reply to his Chap. 40. Discusser BVt it hath been thought and said shall Oppositions against the Truth escape unpunished will they not prove mischievous I answer as before concerning the blind Guides their case being incurable is rather to be lamented since none but the right hand of the Lord in the meeke and gentle Dispensing of the word of Truth can release them c. Defender So it is with all scandalous offenders against the civil State none can give them healing Repentance but the right hand of the Lord Jesus in the dispensing of the word of Truth yet that doth not restraine Magistrates from executing just Judgement upon them So neither doth it restraine them from executing the like just Judgement against these though not to procure the Repentance of incurable obstinate Hereticks and Idolaters yet to prevent the seduction and subversion of others What though a dead soule though changed from one Worship to another like a dead man shifted into severall suites of Apparell cannot please God Heb. 11.6 And what though Faith be that gift which proceedeth alone from that Father of Lights Phil. 1.29 Yet better a dead soule be dead in body as well as in Spirit then to live and be lively in the flesh to murder many precious soules by the Magistrates Indulgence And better he die without Faith then to live to seduce many honest minds to depart from the Faith Discusser I adde a civill Sword hardneth the followers of false Teachers by the sufferings of their false and Antichristian Seducers And secondly it begetteth in them an Impression of the falshood of that Religion which cannot uphold it selfe but with such Instruments of violence and wanteth the soft and gentle commiseration of the blindnesse of others Defender A civill Magistrate ought not to draw out his civill Sword against any Seducers Whether Hereticks or Idolaters till he have used all good meanes for their conviction and thereby clearely manifested the bowels of tender commiseration and compassion towards them But if after their continuance in obstinate Rebellion against the Light he shall still walke towards them in soft and gentle commiseration his softnesse and gentlenesse is excessive large to Foxes and wolves But his bowels are miserably straitned and hardned
aske whether or no such as may hold forth other Worships or Religions Jewes Turkes Antichristians may not be peaceable and quiet Subjects loving and helpfull neighbours faire and just dealers c. It is cleare they may in all experience and yet in spirituall and Mysticall Account they are ravenous and greedy Wolves Defender It hath been declared above that we doe not hold it lawfull to constraine by Civill Sword Jewes or Turkes or Antichristians to be of our Religion whether they be good Subjects loving Neighbours faire dealers yea or no. Nor doth the Apostle in that Text which the Discusser hath in hand speake of men out of the Church Jewes Turkes or Antichristians but of such as enter into the Church and are of themselves Now if Church-members should Apostate from Christ and of Christians become Jewes and Turkes and Antichristians and draw away Disciples after them I would demand of any man whose Conscience is not past feeling of the danger of damnable Heresies whether such Members may goe for peaceable and quiet Subjects for loving and helpfull Neighbours for faire and just dealers for true and Loyall to the civill Government If those be peaceable and quiet Subjects that withdraw Subjects from Subjection to Christ if they be loving and helpfull Neighbours that help men on to perdition If they be faire and just dealers that wound the soules of the best and kill and destroy the soules of many if such be true and loyall to Civill Government that subject it to the Tyranny of a forraine Prelate then it will be no advantage to civill States when the Kingdomes of the Earth shall become the Kingdomes of our Lord and they may doe as good service to the civill State who bring the wrath of God upon them by their Apostacie as they that bring downe blessings from Heaven by the Profession and Practise of the true Religion in Purity Discusser I querie secondly to whom Paul gave this charge to watch against them ver 31. They were not the Magistrates of the City of Ephesus but the Elders of the Church of Ephesus Defender Who doubteth of it Discusser Many of these charges and Exhortations given by Christ to the Shepheards and Ministers of the Churches be commonly attributed and directed by the Answerer in this Discourse to the Civill Magistrate Defender Cujus contrarium verumest For looke the Answer through and you shall find not one of these charges or Exhortations given to Ministers were ever directed by the Answerer to civill Magistrates the falshood of the Discusser in this charge upon the Answerer is palpable and notorious And this exhortation in this place the Answerer doth not so much as mention at all either as directed to Magistrates or to Elders Discusser I desire it may be inquired into whether in all the will or Testament of Christ there be any such word of Christ by way of Command Promise or Example countenancing the Governours of the Givill State to meddle with these wolves if in civill things peaceable and obedient Defender This Condition if in civill things peaceable and obedient implyeth a contradiction to the nature and practice of wolves How can Wolves be peaceable and obedient unlesse they be restrained and how can they be restrained and not medled with What Peace said Jehu so long as the whoredomes of Jezabel and her witchcrafts are so many 2 Kings 9.22 Yes may not spirituall whoredomes and witch-crafts stand with Civill Peace No verily the whoredomes and witch-crafts of the Jezabel of Rome tooke away civill peace from the earth and brought in the Turks to oppresse the peace both of Christian Churces and Common-wealths as hath been shewed above Revel 9.15.21 That dreadfull example of Gods vengeance upon Civill States for tolerating and practising Image-worship is a serious and loud warning to all Christian States to beware of such seducing spirits as beare them in hand they shall have peace though they tolerate Idolatrous and false worships in their Territoryes Besides for another example and that approved you find in the Lords Testament Revel 16.4 5 6 7. of which before And for a word of command from Christ to meddle with wolves that grand charter whereby Magistrates are established in the new Testament may abundantly suffice The Magistrate is the Minister of God an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evill Rom. 14.4 If the wolfe be an evill doer let him looke at the Magistrate as appointed of God to be an avenger and executor of wrath upon him Say not yea if the wolfe be an evill doer against the second Table but not so if against the first Table or if an evill doer against the bodies and estates of men not so if against their soules For who gave any man commission so to limit the word of God or the power of the Magistrate Besides it hath been often said that he that goeth about to subvert Religion and to destroy soules is an evill doer against the peace of the Civill State Discusser If God had given charge to Magistrates to punish evill doers in matters of Religion he would have given to Magistrates in the world ability to discerne and determine who are sheep and who are wolvish oppressors whom he is bound to punish and suppresse Yea they must be able to discerne this not with others mens eyes but with their owne c. Defender It hath been declared above that Magistrates ought to be so well accquainted with matters of Religion as to discerne the Fundamentall Principels thereof and the evill of chose heresies and Blasphemies as doe subvert the same Their ignorance thereof is no discharge of their duty before the Lord. Such wolvish oppressors and Doctrines and practises as they cannot discerne with their own eyes It will be their sin either to suppresse them because they cannot doe it of faith or to tolerate them because they are destructive to the soules of the people and enemies to the common salvation Gallio is justly censured as a prophane man not because he refused to be a Judge in matters concerning the Jewish worship and Religion for he had noe Law of Caesar whose Deputy he was to judge of it but because he rejecteth the cognizance of such causes of Religion as a Question of words and Names Which made him so â—ame regardlesse of causes of Religion that though the Civill peace was broken by the Jewes in pursuite of Paul the Jewes laying violent hands upon Sasthenes and that before the judgement Seate yet Gallio cared for none of those things Acts 18 15.16.17 Discusser In the third place I Quere Whether the Father who gave the sheep and the Sonne who keepeth them be not greater then all And who can plucke the Elect out of his hand which Answereth the common objection of the danger of devouring soules Defender It doth not Answer that Objection For the Father and Sonne were greater then all in the old Testament as well as in the New And none could then pluck
his Elect out of their hands no more then now yet the attempt to pluck them out of Gods hand was a Capitall crime then Deut. 13.5.10 For speaking to turne away a soule from God ver 5. and seeking to thrust away a soule from God are but attempts Besides God putteth no difference of Elect and Reprobate in matter of murder either of foule or Body But the respect which God hath in this case is to his Covenant which God made with the visible members of his Church Now. if a man shall so farre violate his Covenant as to Apostate from God and to draw others away to Apostate from him the Lord avengeth this quarrell of his Covenant upon the lives of such And therefore the hainousnesse of this crime is expressed in that he spake or sought to turne away any of the people of God from the Lord their God Deut. 13.5.10 CHAP. 43. A Reply to his Chap. 43. Discusser FOurthly I aske were not these Elders and Ministers of the Church of Ephesus sufficiently furnished from the Lord Jesus to drive away these spirituall and mysticall wolves Defender They were furnished with sufficient power to cast them out of the Church but being cast out they had not sufficient power to drive them away from conferring with and corrupting the members of the Church or other Godly ones out of the Church It is no dishonor to Christ nor impeachment to th sufficiency of the Ordinances left by Christ that in such a case his Ministers of Justice in the Civill State should assist his Ministers of the Gospel in the Church-State Discusser Fiftly lastly I Aske whether as men deale with wolves these wolves at Ephesus were intended by Paul to be killed their braines dasht out with stones staves Halberts Gunns c. in the hands of the Elders of Ephesus Defender No nor was it alledged by me for any such end nor indeed alledged by me at all but onely the Discusser is pleased to set up a marke to shoot at for his owne recreation Elders must keepe within the bounds of their calling But killing and dashing out of Braines which is all one with stoning was expresly commanded in such a case to the People of God by order from the Judges Deut. 13.10 Discusser But comparing spirituall things with spirituall things spirituall mysticall wolves should be spiritually and mystically slaine Defender So they should be by the spirituall Officers and members of the Church But in destroying Religion they are also disturbers of the Civill State and accordingly are to be dealt withall by Civill Justice Achan disturbed the Common-wealth as well as the Church of Israel by bringing a Babylonish garment into the Tents of Israel and was therefore troubledhimselfe for troubling the People of the Lord Josh 7.25 Discusser It is a most bloudy Doctrine The wolves Hereticks are to be drivenaway their braines knockt out and killed the poore sheep to be persecuted for whom Christ died Defender Belike it is a milkey and peaceable and Gospel like Doctrine The wolves Hereticks are to be tolerated not an haire to be struck off from their heads but for the poore sheep for whom Christ died let them perish unlesse Christ mean to preserue them himselfe alone with his own immediate hand no care of preserving them belongeth to the Civill Magistrate Discusser Is not this to take Christ and to make him a temporal King by force Joh. 6.15 Is not this to make his Kingdome of this world to set up a Civill and Temporall Israel to bound out new earthly holy lands of Canaan yea and to set up a Spanish Inquisition in all parts of the world to the speedy destruction of millions of soules and to the frustrating of the sweet end of the comming of the Lord Jesus which was to save mens soules and to that end not to destroy their bodyes by his owne bloud Defender Now of all these when the Kingdomes of the earth become the Kingdomes of the Lord Rev. 11.15 It is not by making Christ a temporall King but by making temporall Kingdomes nursing Fathers to his Church In the dayes of Christs Flesh it was Incompatible to his Ministery to make him a King as they went about to doe Joh. 6.15 Christ hath injoyed even as Mediator an everlasting Kingdome not onely in the Church but in the Government of all the Kingdomes of the earth by his glorious power and righteousnesse But the Kingdomes of the earth are then said to be the Kingdomes of our Lord when they submit their lawes to the lawes of his word But that neither maketh him a temporall King nor his Kingdome in the Church to be a Kingdome of this world The Church and Common-wealth are still distinct Kingdomes the one of this world the other of Heaven and yet both of them from Christ unto whom the Father hath committed all Judgement Iob. 5.22 Neither will this set up a Civill and temporall Israel an holy Canaan unlesse all the members of the Common-wealth were called to be members of the Church and subject to all the ceremoniall and all the judiciall Lawes of Moses not onely those of Morall and perpetuall equity but peculiar to that State as the Brother to marry his deceased Brothers wife Nor is it a Spanish Inquisition to preserve the sheep of Christ from the raven of wolves but this rather such is the practise of the Discusser to promote the principal end of the spanish Inquisition to advance the Romish tyranny Idolatry and Apostacy by proclaiming impunity to all their whorish and wolvish Emissaries Nor is it a frustrating of the sweet end of Christs comming which was to save soules but rather a direct advancing of it to destroy if need be the bodies of those wolves who seeke to destroy the soules of those for whom Christ died and whom he bought with his owne bloud CHAP. 44. A Reply to his Chap. 44. Discussing 2 Cor. 10.4 Discusser The next Scripture produced against such persecution was 2 Cor. 10.4 The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mighty through God c. To which it is Answered Paul speaketh of the weapons of Apostles and Church-Officers which are not carnall but spirituall and mighty through God But this denieth not Civill weapous of Justice to Civill Magistrates But I here observe that the Scripture holdeth forth a two-fold State a Civill State and a Spirituall Civill Officers and spirituall Civill weapons and spirituall Civill vengeance and spirituall though the Spirit speaketh not here expresly of Civill Magistrates and their Civill weapons yet these States being of different natures and considerations as farre differing as flesh and spirit therefore Civill weapons are most improper and unfitting in matters of the spirituall Kingdome and State though in the Civill State most proper and suitable Defender The Discusser as often throughout his Discourse so here he looseth himselfe and the truth in ambiguityes Civill weapons are indeed improper and unfitting in spirituall matters to wit in the
Request of the generall Councel of Nice Banished Arius with some of his fellowes Ecclesiast Histor l 1. Cap. 19.20 The same Constantine made a severe Law against the Donatists the like proceedings against them were used by Valentinian Gratian Theodosius as Augustine reporteth in Epist 166. onely Julian the Apostate graunted liberty to Hereticks as well as to Pagans that he might by Tolerating all weeds to grow choake the vitalls of Christianity Which was also the practise and sinne of Ualens the Arian Queene Elizabeth as famous for her government as most of the former It is well knowne what Lawes she made and executed against Papists Yea and King James one of your owne Witnesses though he was slow in proceeding against Papists as you say for Conscience sake yet you are not ignorant how sharply and severely he punished those whom the Malignant world calleth Puritans men of more Conscience better Faith then the Papists whom he Tolerated Discusser First for mine owne part I would not use an Argument from the number of Princes witnessing in profession or practise against persecution for cause of Conscience c. Truth and Faith must not be received with respect of persons pretious pearles are found in muddy shells The most High chooseth the poore of this world to be witnesses to his Truth and Buchanan dying was going thither whether few Kings were comming Defender This Chapter then might have been spared for it neither maintaineth his cause nor refuteth my answer to his friends Argument but yeeldeth up the invalidity of the Argument from such a Topick place As from the number and votes of Princes But by his leave the answer which I gave to his argument is not taken from the like number of Princes but from the greater piety and presence of God with those Princes who have professed and practised against Toleration It is truly said Suffragia non sunt numeranda sed ponderanda Heroicall wisdome magnanimity and zeale is not the lesse to be esteemed because it is found in the spirit and counsel and practise of Princes CHAP. 59. A Reply to his Chap. 62. Discusser Secondly I observe how inconsiderately I hope not willingly the Answerer passeth by the reasons and grounds urged by these three Princes In King James his speech he passeth by that golden Maxime that God never loved to plant his Church by bloud Defender The Discusser is mistaken when he saith I passed over their reasons and grounds inconsiderately though he hopeth not willingly for indeed I passed them over willingly but not inconsiderately For I well considered either the reasons wanted weight or else did not impugne the cause in hand For instance this speech of King James That God never loved to plant his Church by bloud though it be a Truth of weight yet it doth not touch this cause It is farre from us to defend the planting of Churches by bloud that is to compell men to yeeld themselves to the fellowship of the Church by bloudy Lawes or poenalties the Church of Christ admitteth no members but a willing people Psal 110.3 Neverthelesse that hindereth not but as the Church was purchased and planted by the bloud of Christ so he that shall goe about to supplant and destroy the Church of Christ his bloud may justly fall upon his owne head Discusser Secondly That civill obedience may be performed by Papists this was another reason of King James passed over by the Answerer Defender No marvell that I passed it over for I did not finde it in the Letter For though the King say as the Letter reporteth him I onely declared to be secured for civill obedience which for Conscience cause they were bound to performe yet the King doeth not say That civill obedience may be performed by Papists standing stedfast to the rules of their owne Religion For if the Bishop of Rome upon pretence of hereticall pravity shall excommunicate a Protestant Prince dissolve the Subjects Oath of Allegiance to him depose him dispose of his Kingdome In this case which often falleth out how can civill obedience be performed by the Papists Discusser Thirdly The Kings third ground is his observation in Revel 20. That persecution is a true certaine note of a false Church The wicked are Beseigers the faithfull Beseiged Defender I subscribe to the King that persecution properly so called that is the oppression of any for righteousnesse sake is a note of a false Church but nor a certaine note For againe I say that persecution properly so called may be sometime found in the true Church For which of all the Prophets did not the Church of the old Testament persecute Acts 7.52 And yet that persecution was not the true and certaine note of a false Church For then God had left no true Church upon the face of the earth But this I graunt That such persecution where ever it is found It is a degree of falshood and A postacy in that Church But what a vast distance is there between the just censure of Apostasticall and Hereticall seducers and disturbers of the Churches peace and truth and between persecution As for the other speech The wicked are beseigers the faithfull are beseiged It may well be said of the seige spoken of in that 20. of the Revelation But if it should be put for a universall Maxime Royall Authority cannot make it good Divinity When the ten Christian Kings shall hate the Whore of Rome and eate her flesh and burne her with fire Rev. 17.16 I suppose the Discusser will not say the wicked are Beseigers the faithfull are beseiged Discusser In King Stephens speech of Poland he passeth by the true difference between a civill and a spirituall Government I am said Stephen a civill Magistrate over the bodyes of men not a spirituall over their soules Defender King Stephens speech may well stand and the cause still untouched The Magistrate is a Ruler over the Bodies of men not over their soules He cannot command their soules nor binde their Consciences nor punish their spirits It is the Lord alone can reach them That which the King or Magistrate can doe or doeth in this case is to punish the bodyes of men for destroying or disturbing Religion Discusser To confound these is Babel and Jewish to seeke for Moses and bring him from his Grave c. Defender It is Babel indeed for civill Magistrates to make Lawes to binde Conscience and to excommunicate transgressors of those Lawes But to punish false Prophets and Seducers of Gods people to Idolatry was never the practise of Babel but it was and is their practise not onely to Tolerate them but to advance and encourage them If it were a Jewish seeking of Moses and a bringing him from his Grave to punish Seducers for Idolatry then after Moses was buried that Law Deut. 13. was abrogated But his buryall and Gods hiding of the place thereof was rather a confirmation and establishment of it then any Abrogation or Impeachment
according to their Conscience and beleife and constraine them to such worships which their own soules tell them they have no satifaction nor faith in 1. It is an untruth that either we restraine men from worship according to Conscience or constraine them to worship against Conscience or that such is my Tenent and practise 2. Though it were true that wee did both yet this did not make Lawes to binde Conscience but the outward man onely nor would we thinke it meet to binde the ontward man against Conscience Discusser Againe where as the Answerer affirmeth That men may make Lawes to see the Lawes of God observed I Answer As God needs not the help of a materiall Sword of Steele to assist the Sword of the Spirit in the affairs of Conscience so those men those Magistrates yea the Common-wealth which makes such Magistrates must needs have power and Authority from Christ Iesus to sit Iudge and to determine in all the great Controversies concerning Doctrine Worship Government c. Defender God needeth not the help of a materiall Sword of Steele to assist the Sword of his Spirit of righteousnesse in the dutyes of the second Table no more then to assist the Sword of the Spirit of holynesse in the dutyes of the first Table The Law of Righteousnesse is as fully and plainly written by the Spirit of God in the hearts and Consciences of men as is the Law of holynesse yea and more too And yet the Discusser doth not for ought I know make it a needlesse matter for God to accept the helpe of the materiall Sword to assist the Spirit of Righteousnesse in the affaires of Conscience which pertaine to the second Table The truth is God needeth not the Arme of flesh to help him that is he needeth not any help which the wisdome or strength of the creature can invent or bring forth which himselfe appointed not But yet God thinkes it no dishonour to himselfe to make use of his owne Ordinances in their owne bounds to his owne ends Nor doeth he then need them when he useth them but wee need such helps for the performance of our duty both to God and man Which made it a cursed sin in Meroz not to come out to help the Lord Iudge 5 23. Nor will it hence follow that such Magistrates as are chosen to help forward the work of God in matters of Religion that either themselves or the Common-wealth that chooseth them must needs have power and Authority from Christ to sit Iudge and to determine in all great controversies of Religion in Doctrine Discipline and Government It is enough that they are called of God to be wise and learned in the service of Christ and in the wayes of his Kingdome Psal 2.10 11 12. which if they have learned they ought to rule with him and for him or else how shall it be fulfilled which is written of them The Kingdomes of the world are become the Kingdomes of the Lord and of his Christ and he shall reigne for ever Rev. 7.15 Yea in this case it is learning enough if they know the Principles and Foundations of Religion and can discerne the Arrogancy of a tumultuous spirit after conviction For such want not judgement to censure Apostacy to Heresie in doctrine to Idolatry in worship to Tyranny in Government Discusser But then I aske whether upon this ground it must not evidently follow that then either there is no Common-wealth nor Civill State of men in the world that is not qualified with this discerning and then the Common-wealth hath more light concerning the Church then the Church it selfe Or that the Common-wealth and Magistrates thereof must judge and punish as they are perswaded in their owne beleife and Conscience be their Conscience Paganish Turkish or Antichristian And what is this but to confound Heaven and Earth together and to take away not onely the being of Christianity out of the world but all civility yea the world out of the world and to lay all upon heaps of confusion Defender See what strange effects a strong fancy can produce would you not think it must be some strange and strong paradox that if it be graunted shall produce such strange and strong effects as to take away the being of Christianity out of the world yea and all civility yea and the world out of the world But when men have slept a while and strong fancyes are evaporated the world will stand where it is and civility stand in the world and Christianity in civility I say therefore that which no sober minde can contradict that though Magistrates be bound to become wise and learned to know Christ and to establish the Religion of Christ yet it will not as the Discusser saith evidently follow no nor follow at all That then there is no law full Commonwealth nor Civill State of men in the world which is not qualified with this spirituall discerning For though it be the duty of Civill States thus to be qualified yet their want of such qualifications doth not make them unlawfull States Many due qualifications are required in Husbands Wives Children Servants Magistrates Churches the want of which maketh them defective and sinfull but doth not make them unlawfull This will need no proofe to any sober minde Muchlesse will it follow upon the former Premises that the very Common-wealth hath then more light concerning the Church of Christ then the Church it selfe For it is a weake Church that knowes no more light then Principles And what light the Common-wealth hath it may have received from the Church Howsoever the Magistrates power to establish the Religion of Christ doth no way inferre That he that establisheth that Religion which is professed in the Church hath more light concerning that Religion or any part of it then the Church it selfe Albeit it is not impossible nor is it absurd that sometime the Magistrate may have more light in matters of Religion then the Church it selfe David for ought wee read was the first that discerned the disorder in Carting the Arke of God 1 Chron. 15.2 And Hezekiah was the first that prevented the Preists and Levits and the whole Church in the worke of Reformation from the Apostacy of Ahaz 2 Chron. 29.4 to 11. But there is no colour of consequence that because Magistrates are bound to discerne and know the will of Christ and to serve him with their power That therefore such as have no discerning of Christ nor of his holy will That they should punish and destroy Christ and Christians and seeke only to advance their owne Religion which is but Idolatry and Superstition CHAP. 70. A Reply to his Chap. 73. Discussing the Testimony of Luther Discusser LUthers Testimony saith the Answerer reacheth to two things neither of which we deny First that the Government of the civill Magistrate reacheth no further then to the bodies and goods of their Subjects not over their soules and therefore they may not undertake to give Lawes
to the soules and Consciences of men Secondly that the Church of Christ doth not use the Arme of secular power to compell men to the true profession of the Truth For this is to be done with spirituall weapons whereby Christians are to be exhorted and compelled But this saith he hindereth not That Christians sinning against the Light of Faith and Conscience may justly be censured of the Church by Excommunication and of the civill Magistrate also in case they shall corrupt others to the perdition of their soules This Joynt-confession of the Answerer with Luther to wit that the Government of the civill Magistrate extendeth no further then over the bodyes and goods of their Subjects not over their soules who seeth not that hereby is given a cleare Testimony that either the spirituall and Church Estate the preaching of the word Baptisme Ministery Government thereof belongeth to the civill body of the Common-wealth that is to the bodies and goods of men which seemeth monstrous to Imagine or else that the civill Magistrate cannot without exceeding the bounds of his Office meddle with those spirituall Affaires Defender A man that is willing to open his eyes may easily see that though the Government of the civill Magistrate doe extend no further then over the bodies and goods of his Subjects yet he may and ought to improve that power over their bodies and goods to the good of their soules yea and by promoting the good of their soules he may much advance the good of their outward man also The bodies and goods and outward Estates of men may expect a blessing when their soules prosper Though God may keep his Saints low in outward Estate that grow fastest in Godlinesse yet sure Godlinesse hath the Promises of this life and of a better 1 Tim. 4.8 And such as first seeke the Kingdome of God may expect all these outward things to be cast in upon them If it seeme a monstrous thing in the eyes of the Discusser to imagine that the good Estate of the Church and the well-ordering of the Ordinances of God therein should concerne the civill good of the Common-wealth it may well seeme monstrous to him to imagine that the flourishing of Religion is the flourishing of the civill State and the decay of Religion is the decay and ruine of the civill State But such Virgine soules as follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth Rev. 14.4 would be loath to goe to live in such a Common-wealth to whom it should seeme monstrous that the things of God should belong to them And therefore the Magistrate need not to feare that he should exceed the bounds of his Office if he should meddle with the spirituall affaires of the Church in Gods way It is true if he shall meddle with the execution of a Ministers Office as Vzziah did or if he shall set up humane Inventions in Doctrine Worship Government in stead of Christs Institutions as David brought the Arke of God upon Oxen instead of the shoulders of the Levites Or if he shall thrust in Jeroboams Priests upon the Church and cast out faithfull Ministers or if he shall make Lawes to bind Conscience in all these or any such Like he exceedeth the bounds of his Office But if he shall diligently seeke after the Lord and read in the word of the Lord all the dayes of his life Deut. 17.19 that he may both live as a Christian and rule as a Christian if he shall seeke to establish and advance the Kingdome of Christ more then his owne If he shall incourage the good in a Christian course and discourage such as have evill will to Sion and punish none for matter of Religion but such as subvert the Principles of saving Truth which no good Christian much lesse good Magistrate can be ignorant of or at least such as disturbe the Order of the Gospel in a turbulent way verily the Lord will build up and establish the House and Kingdome of such Princes as doe thus build up his Discusser Againe necessarily it must follow that these two are contradictory to themselves which yet both of them are Mr. Cottons Positions the Magistrates Power extends no further then to the bodyes and goods of the Subject and yet The Magistrate must punish Christians for sinning against the Light of Faith and Conscience and for corrupting the soules of men Defender If the Christian Faith and a good Conscience be a part and a great part a chiefe part of the good of Christians then these two are so farre from contradicting one another that they establish one another For if a Magistrates power extend to the preserving of the Goods of the Subject and to the punishment of the Impeachers or purloyners thereof then he falleth short of his duty if he suffer their Faith and good Conscience to be corrupted or dispoyled without revenge Againe this I say further which also will easily avoyde appearance of Contradiction suppose by Goods were meant onely outward Goods and that the Magistrates power extended no further then the bodies and goods of the Subjects yet though he have no power over Faith and Conscience he hath neverthelesse lawfull power to punish such evill doers in their Bodies and goods as doe seduce his people to make shipwrack of Faith and a good Conscience For in seeking Gods Kingdome and Righteousnesse men prosper in their outward Estates Matth. 6.33 otherwayes they decay Besides I doe not remember that this Proposition is any of mine which yet the Discusser fastneth upon me that the Magistrates power extendeth no further then the bodies and Goods of his Subjects I doe not deny the Truth of it rightly understood but it seemeth to me somewhat too loose and confused for me to owne it as mine own For the Magistrates power may be said to extend no further then the bodyes and Goods of his Subjects either as the Subject of his power or as the end of his power If Goods be meant outward Goods and the Magistrates power be said to extend no further then to the body and Goods of his Subjects as to the Object of his power the Position is true But if it be meant of the end of his power as if a Magistrates power reached no further then to the preservation of their bodyes and outward Goods it is false For the Adequate end of the Magistrates power is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 benè administrare Rempublicam well to governe the Common-wealth Now can it be well with a Common-wealth that liveth in bodily health and worldly wealth but yet without Church without Christ without God in the world But though God for a time may preserve a civill State in health and wealth through his Patience and bounty especially till meanes of Grace be offered to them yet after meanes of Grace be offered they cannot long expect bodily health or wealth to be continued to them if they neglect or despise or depart from so great salvation Witnesse the Romane Empire which though it
which Abraham the Father of the faithfull and God the Judge of all the Earth thought equall Gen. 18.25 that the Righteous should not be as the wicked nor that Truth and Fidelity should suffer as Heresie and Apostacy Discusser Yea but it is not confidence of being in the Truth which they judge the Papists and others are not in no nor the Truth it selfe that can priviledge them to persecute others and to exempt themselves from persecution for three Considerations First because it is against the nature of true sheep to persecute or hunt the Beasts of the Forrest no not the Wolves who have persecuted themselves Defender It is a feeble kind of reasoning from a similitude in some things to presse a resemblance in every thing Sheep doe fitly resemble Christians in many proprieties but he that shall therefore presse them to be like in all shall not suffer a Magistrate if he be a sheep of Christ to punish Robbers Adulterers Murderers why for it is against the Nature of true sheep to persecute any Beasts of the Forrest Besides I demand whether Paul was a sheep or a Wolfe when he smote Elymas with blindnesse If he were a Wolfe how is he then said to be filled with the Holy Ghost Acts 13.9 If he were a sheep why did he strike such a Beast of the Forrest ver 10 11. Furthermore when the Wolfe runneth ravenously upon the sheep is it against the nature of the true sheep to run to their Shepheard And is it then against the Nature of the true Shepheard to send forth his Dogs to worry such a Wolfe without incurring the reproach of a persecutor Discusser Secondly if it be a Duty and charge upon all Magistrates in all parts of the world to judge and persecute in and for spirituall Causes then either they are no Magistrates who are not able to judge in such cases or else they must judge according to their Consciences whether Pagan Turkish or Antichristian Defender This hath been againe and againe Answered above though it be the Duty of all Magistrates in the world to judge and punish Blasphemers Idolaters and Seducers yet not in sensu composite whilst they are ignorant of the Truth and cannot judge of such causes but in sensu diviso they are bound to be wise and instructed in the knowledge and worship of Christ Psal 2.10.11 12. and then to judge accordingly But in the meane time it doth not follow that they are no Magistrates who are not able to doe all the Duties of a Magistrate Neither will it follow that they must judge according to their Consciences when their Consciences are blind and erroneous Pagan Turkish Antichristian Let them first cast Beames out of their owne eyes and then they will better discerne between Beame and motes in other men Discusser Thirdly the Experience of our Fathers errours and of our owne mistakes and ignorance the sense of our owne weaknesses and blindnesse in the depths of the Prophecies and mysteries of the Kingdome of Christ and the great professed Expectation of the Light to come which wee are not now able to comprehend may abate the edge and sheath up the Sword of Persecution against any especially such as differ not from them in Doctrines of Repentance or Faith or Holynesse of heart and life but onely in the way and manner of the Administration of Jesus Christ Defender I say as Augustine sometime said in another case Nunquid negandum quod certum est quia comprehendi non potest quod occultum est There are depths of sundry Prophecies which we yet comprehend not but shall we therefore be alwayes babes and ignorant of the Fundamentall Principles of Christian Religion yea and suffer them to be shaken and ruined because there are some Prophesies and Mysteries which wee yet understand not shall the expectation of greater Light so dazle our eyes before wee see it that we cannot be able to see what wee doe see It is not Light but darknesse that cloudeth the Light already revealed Nor is it darknesse onely but blacknesse of darknesse that putteth Light for darknesse and darknesse for Light and would have both tolerated to live together in the same Hemispheare because some blinde Christians cannot yet tell which is whether It is true the Experience of former Errours and sense of present weaknesses may justly abate the edge and sheath up the Sword of persecution against any that differ onely in errours of weakenesse and differ not in Doctrines of Faith Repentance and Holinesse of heart and life Yea wee willingly grant more then the Discusser requireth in such a case For though there should bee some Difference in Doctrines of faith or Repentance or Holinesse Yet wee should not approve the unsheathing of the Sword against such unlesse the Doctrine were fundamentally subversive to faith or Repentance or Holinesse and that obstinately maintained against light and conviction and broached and dispersed to the Infection and Seduction of others If the Difference be only in the way and manner of Administration of Christ Iesus and that Difference held forth in a Christian and Peaceable way God forbid a staffe should be shaken against such much lesse a Sword unsheathed CHAP. 72. A Reply to his Chap. 75th Discussing a Testimony of Augustine Discusser TO begin with Augustine They murther saith Hee Soules and themselves are afflicted in Body They put men to everlasting Death and yet they complaine when themselves are put to a temporall Death This Rhetoricall perswasion of humane wisdome seemeth very reasonable in the Eye of flesh and bloud but one Scripture more prevaileth with faithfull and obedient soules then thousands of plausible and Eloquent speeches Defender Neither this Testimony nor the rest of those Ancients that follow were alledged to prevaile with the Faith of any further then Light of Scripture might shine forth in them but onely to counterpoyse the Testimonies of the Ancients alledged in the Letter against the Truth And the Discusser in his entrance into this chapter is forced to acknowledge that the cause wee maintaine hath more number of Votes and I may adde weight of Voters then the contrary Tenent onely he putteth it off with this evasion that Antichrist is too hard for Christ at Votes and Numbers Which yet is the more to be marvelled at that when the cause is about the Toleration of Hereticks and Antichristians that Antichrist should procure more Votes against Antichristians and Christ to procure any Votes though fewer for them And it is but another evasion whereby he here putteth off Augustines speech as if it were but a Rhetoricall evasion Whereas indeed the weight of the speech lyeth not in the Rhetorick which is little or none but in the Logick in an Argument taken from the Excellency of the soule above the body and thence inferring the equity of killing the bodies of such as kill the soules of Gods people and the iniquity of such as think this unequall But to weaken the force of
fall to the Lawes and Governments of the Countries where they inhabite And therefore all the dangerous consequences which the Discusser gathereth from my speech but indeed not my speech but his owne as if I should drive the world out of the world or turne the world upside downe or leave it to men that have not Gods feare to judge who feare God and who not and the rest that follow they are all of them consequences without an Anticedent or an Anticedent without exsistence in any speech of mine but onely in his owne imagination Neither hath it any better ground that passionate exclamation of his with which he endeth this Chapter Heare saith he O Heavens and give eare O Earth yea let the Heavens be astonished and the Earth tremble at such an Answer What Answer thinke you might this be that might provoke not the Discusser onely but the Heavens and earth to such attention admiration trembling astonishment The Answer forsooth is that which he calleth a wonderfull Answer which the Ministers of New-England gave to the third Question sent to them by some Ministers of Old-England to wit that although they confessed them to be such persons whom they approved of farre above themselves yea who were in their hearts to live and die together yet if they or other godly people with them comming over to them should differ in Church-Constitution they then could not approve their civill Cohabitation with them and consequently could not advise their Magistrates to suffer them to injoy a civill being within their jurisdiction Now sure if there were any such Answer to be found in that Booke sounding to such a purpose I my selfe should joyne with him in the like exclamation and wonderment But when I came to search for that speech and neither finde it in the Answer which he quoteth to the third Question nor in that which I rather thinke he meant the 31. I cannot but admire and adore the righteous Judgement of God who having left the Discusser in this Booke and some other to write against the Truth in point of Doctrine hath herein left him to breake forth in his owne hand-writing into notorious impudent falshood in matter of fact which any man that readeth that Booke cannot but discerne in this Allegation The Answer is too large for me to transcribe but who so will may reade it and when he compareth the Answer in that Booke with the Answer in this he may well wonder with what heart and forhead the Discusser could so expresse it CHAP. 76. A Reply to his 79. Chap. Discusser Yea but say they they doubt not if those Ministers of Old-England should come over to them and were here with them they should agree For say they either you will come to us or shew us light to come to you for wee are but weake men and dreame not of perfection in this life Alas who knoweth not what lamentable differences have been betweene the same Ministers of the Church of England c. Let none now thinke that the passage to New-England by Sea or the nature of the Countrie can doe what onely the Key of David can doe to wit open and shut the Consciences of men Defender I did not thinke that any man in Old-England or New had been so ignorant or uncharitable as to think the Pen-man of the Answer to these Questions had conceived that either the voyage by Sea or the change of the aire from Old England to New could change the judgements or Consciences of men Nature could tell Coelum non animum mutant qui trans mare Currunt But yet no Christian man is ignorant that mutual conference between Godly ingenuous and selfe-denying Christians is a notable meanes sanctified of God for the instruction edification one of another till wee all come to be of one minde in the Lord. Else how shall therebe mutuall convictions without mutuall conferences It is the Key of David onely that can open and shut the Consciences of men but that Key ordinarily doth it in the dispensation of Ordinances whereof Conference is one Discusser Besides how can this be a faithfull and upright acknowledgement of their weaknesse and imperfection when they Preach Print and practise such violence to the soules and bodyes of others And by their Rules and grounds ought to proceed to the killing of those whom they judge so deare unto them and in respect of godlynesse farre above themselves Defender This violence to the souls bodyes of men is often charged upon us by the Discusser But he hath not yet given us an instance of any one soule or body which hath undergone this violence from us Si Accusasse fufficiat quis innocens exit It is no new practise to be an Accuser of the Brethren neither is their any slaunder so false or scurrilous but findeth ready yea and greedy intertainment even of many professors especially such whose best Religion lyeth in the observing and censuring the wayes of others How welcome to such are evill reports of them that dare not allow themselves in any knowne evill This acknowledgement of our weaknesse and imperfection would then truly appeare to be neither faithfull nor upright if wee Preached or practised violence against such in comparison of whom we acknowledge our own weaknesse and imperfection Meane while we may well stand and wonder what rules and Grounds of ours those be by which wee ought to proceed even to the killing of those whom wee judge so deare unto us and in respect of Godlynesse far above us Are any of them whom wee so respect such as subvert the Foundation of the Christian Faith and persist therein obstinately after conviction are any of them presumptuous Blasphemers of the great Name of God Or Idolaters themselves and Seducers of others to Idolatry CHAP. 77. A Reply to his Chap. 80. Discusser VVHat though they say the Godly will not persist in Heresie or turbulent Schisme when they are convinced thereof in Conscience If the civill Court and Magistrates must judge and those civill Courts are as lawfull consisting of naturall men as of Godly persons then what consequences will follow I have before mentioned Defender Mentioned indeed but not proved I hope by the helpe of Christ the inconsequence of them hath been cleared Discusser And I adde according to this Conclusion it must follow that if the most godly persons yeeld not to once or twice Admonition as is mainteyned by the Answerer they must necessarily be esteemed obstinate persons for if they were godly they would yeeld Defender Here againe the Discusser misreporteth my words For I did not say that if persons be godly they would yeeld to once or twice Admonition and if they did not yeeld to once or twice Admonition they must necessarily be esteemed obstinate persons But my words were The godly will not persist in Heresie or turbulent Schisme when they are convinced in Conscience of the sinfulnesse thereof Here is then a three-fold wresting of my
against my person which might weaken the fruit of my counsell to him I told him I had not hasted forward the sentence of his Civill Banishment and that what was done by the Magistrates in that kinde was neither done by my Counsell nor consent Whereto he answereth first That he observeth I cannot but confesse that it is hard for any man to doe good or to speake effectually to the soule or Conscience of any whose body he afflicteth and persecuteth and that onely for their soule and Conscience sake Reply All that can truely be observed from my words is That it is hard for any to take good from those against whom they have conceived a prejudice whether justly or unjustly But when he subjoyneth a Serpentine that is a subtile and venomous insinuation as if I had afflicted and persecuted his body and that onely for his soule and Conscience sake Answ I have been so farre from afflicting or persecuting his body especially for his soule or conscience sake that in very truth whilest I had any hope of prevailing for him I may say as David said for himselfe against a like slander Psal 7.3 4. I have sought to deliver him who without cause reproacheth me Let not Mr. Williams please himselfe as he doth in this Paragraph in comparing the dealing of the Elders with him here to the Persecutions of the Bishops against the godly Preachers in England If the Bishops had dealt no worse with the godly Preachers there and upon no more unjust causes then the Elders dealt with him here they might with good conscience and good countenance have looked with comfort and confidence both God and man in the face even now when God hath laid their carnall pompe and worldly honour in the dust Neither let him please himselfe as he doth in the next Paragraph in his undoubted Assertion That what Mr. Cotton and others did in procuring his sorrowes was not without some regret and reluctancy of Conscience and affection as David in procuring Uriah's death or Asa in imprisoning the Prophet For neither was he so innocent as was Vriah and that Prophet nor had my selfe the like hand in his sufferings as David and Asa had in the other nor did I ever see cause of regret and reluctancy of conscience for any act of mine own about his sufferings Onely I confesse I had as he saith some regret and reluctancy of affection and of compassion to see one who had received from God stirring and usefull gifts to bestirre himselfe so busily and eagerly to abuse them to the disturbance of himselfe his family the Churches and the Common-wealth That I consented not to his Banishment he in part admitteth For what need was there saith he of that being not one of the Civill Court As if I might not have consented to it though I needed not to have done it I might have drawn up Articles against him I might have come in as a witnesse against him I might have solicited and stirred up the body of the Magistrates against him to rid the countrey of him and then I had consented before-hand to what was done by the Magistrates in that kinde though my selfe had been none of the Court but none of all these acts nor any such like were done by me But be it that I consented not yet I counselled it and so consented and to prove that he saith He will produce a double and unanswerable Testimony for it First That I publickly taught and still doe Teach except lately Christ hath taught me better that body-killing soule-killing and State-killing Doctrine of Persecuting all other Consciences and wayes of worship but mine own in the Civill State and consequently in the whole world if the Power or Empire thereof were in mine hand Reply Were it not that I have learned from the word of truth that when men are cast out of the Church of Christ they are delivered up unto Satan and so neither their wits nor their tongues are their own I could not easily have beleeved that Mr. Williams could so confidently and openly have avouched such a notorious slander Since the Lord taught me to know any thing what conscience or the worship of God meant it hath been my constant judgement and doctrine and practise to the contrary Besides To teach the killing of the bodies of all such Consciences and wayes of worship as are not mine own is to make mine own conscience and way of worship the infallible Rule and soveraigne Standard by which all consciences and wayes of worship throughout the world were to be regulated yea and as if this were a light measure of arrogancy and usurpation I make it a capitall crime a body-killing offence for any man to swerve from my conscience and way of worship even in such Points wherein the Holy Ghost hath given expresse charge that we should not judge nor condemne one another Rom. 14.3 But I durst appeale even unto the conscience of Mr. Williams himselfe if it were now in the gracious keeping of Christ or of himselfe as in former times that himselfe knoweth I doe not thinke it lawfull to Excommunicate an Heretick much lesse to persecute him with the civill Sword till it may appeare even by just and full conviction that he sinneth not out of conscience but against the very light of his own conscience Sure I am such a Point he reporteth is received from me to the very same purpose and he reporteth it truely in his Bloudy Tenent pag. 8. This Answer may suffice to his first as he calleth it unanswerable Testimony His second unanswerable Testimony is That some Gentlemen that did consent to his Sentence have solemnly testified and with teares since confessed to himselfe that they could not in their soules have been brought to have consented to the Sentence of his Banishment had not Mr. Cotton in private given them advice and counsell proving it just and warrantable to their Consciences Reply I might here justly plead the equitie of the Romane Custome to excuse my selfe from this accusation untill the accusers come before me face to face And truely if Apocryphall witnesses may goe for unanswerable Testimonies it is an easie matter to oppresse any innocency I might also plead the incompetency of such a witnesse as haply lying under some censure from our Church and removing himselfe from our fellowship might take more liberty to speake against me in a pang of passion what he would be loath to justifie in cold bloud I might likewise alledge that one or two Magistrates makes not a Court nor was his Sentence cast by the vote of one or two So that if I had counselled one or two to it it would not argue that the act of the Magistrates and of the Deputies which is the body of the Court had been done by my counsell or consent And indeed it was the very true meaning of my speech that for the hastening of the Sentence of the Court against Mr. Williams that act of the
the contrary may perswade a selfe-pleasing fancy but will not convince nor satissie any solid Judgement Might not the Israelites that came out of Aegypt borrow Jewells of silver and gold from the Aegyptians yea and carry up also a mixed multitude of People and yet build a Tabernacle to the Lord in the Wildernesse Exod. 12.35 to 38. Might not the Jewes come out of Babel and accept from all the People where they had sojourned vessells of silver and gold with goods and beasts and other precious things and yet build a Temple at Hierusalem Ezra 1.4 5 6. May not a soule be married to Christ and yet his former husband his corrupt nature not be so absolutely dead as the husband of a wife must be before shee can be lawfully married to another The Graft cut off from one tree may be engrafted to another and yet carry forth his old leaves with him The kingdome of Christ that is cut off from the Romane Monarchy may yet for a time have some entercourse with the Romane Monarchy The Corinthians though united with Christ and washed from their former Idolatry as well as from other sinnes yet still were defiled with communion in Idols Temples and with Fornication The Thessalonians turned from their former Idolls to serve the living and true God yet they had some amongst them that walked inordinately after their entrance into Church-estate as well as before 2 Thes 3.6 Besides for a further answer to his similitudes the Examiner may remember that though Israel came out of Egypt locally before they could sacrifice to God in the Wildernes yet in their hearts and soules they were still for Aegypt Exod. 14.11 12. Yea and for Aegyptian Idolls Act. 7.39 Ezek. 20.7 8. which is more then we doe allow to our selves TO CHAP. XIV HIs 14th Chapter is spent in Examining and answering a Reason that I gave of my second Answer to his Objection which was propounded and cleared in the former Chapter The Reason was this The Church of Christ received many thousand Jewes who beleeved on the Name of Christ although they were still zealous of the Law and saw not the beggarly emptinesse of Moses his Ceremonies Act. 21.20 And the Apostle Paul directeth the Romans to receive such unto them as were weake in the faith and saw not their liberty from the servile difference of Meats and Dayes but still lay under the bondage of the Law Yea he wished them to receive such upon this ground because Christ had received them Rom. 14.1 to 6. And lest it should be objected there was not the like danger of lying under bondage to Moses as to Antichrist It was said that even the bondage under Moses was such as that if it were continued in after instruction and conviction it would separate them from Christ Gal. 5.2 and bondage under Antichrist could doe no more For Answer hereto the Examiner would have two things to be carefully minded 1. That the Ordinances of Moses were sometimes the Ordinances of God and when they were to vanish they were to be taken away with solemnity The Ordinances of Antichrist were the Inventions of Satan and from first to last never to be received nor submitted to no not for a moment 2. He would have the difference of times to be observed which saith he Mr. Cotton himselfe confesseth after instruction and conviction Moses Law was deadly and would separate from Christ Therefore there was a time when they were not deadly and did not separate from Christ to wit untill Moses was honorably fallen asleep c. To apply then Paul observed a vow and the Ceremonies of it Circumcised Timothy c. May therefore a Messenger of Christ now as Paul goe to Masse Pray to Saints performe Pennance keepe Christmasse and other Popish Feasts and Fasts c. Reply 1. I never heard or read till now that Paul ever went to Masse Prayed to Saints kept Christmasse or the like nor did I ever imagine that any ingenuous minde would thinke that ever it came into my heart to plead for such things now or for the retaining of any Popish Rite at all But the wit and lip of man being let loose and left to it selfe may inferre quodlibet ex quolibet If it be said his Parenthesis as Paul had reference onely to a Messenger of Christ as Paul not to any such like act of Paul then his Argument is no more conclusive then a Baculo ad Angulum What colour were there that any man now should plead Pauls example to doe that now which Paul never did nor any thing like it Reply 2. The Examiner requireth two things here to be carefully minded In answer whereto I desire but one thing to be carefully minded to wit to what end I alledged the ignorance of the Jewes in the Primitive times and the indulgence of the Christian Churches for receiving them into Church-fellowship notwithstanding such ignorance And then see if it doe not inferre that which I brought it for If in the Primitive times the ignorance of the Jewes in many waighty Points of Religion and some of them fundamentall did not hinder their receiving into Christian Church-fellowship nor disanull their Church-estate who so received them then it is not so necessary to Church-fellowship as that without it a Church cannot be that the Members admitted thereunto should all of them see and expresly bewaile all the pollutions wherewith they have been defiled in their former Church-fellowship Ministery Worship Government c. But the former is true as hath been opened from Acts 21.20 Rom. 14.1 to 6. Gal. 5.2 To which may be added Acts 15.5 with 24. Where it appeareth some of the members of the Church and of the Synod held forth such Doctrine and Worship touching the necessitie of Circumcision and observation of the Law as tended to the subversion of soules and yet neither their membership nor the Estate of the Church was thereby disanulled The Conclusion is evident from these Premises It is a vaine thing now to alledge that the Ordinances of Moses were sometimes the Ordinances of God but so the inventions of Antichrist never were and there is not the like honourable respect and tendernesse to be shewed to the inventions of Antichrist as to the vanishing Ordinances of God For though this were of weight in case I had pleaded for the practise of any Antichristian inventions which indeed was farre off both from my meaning and words yet in this case it is wholly impertinent For that which I pleaded for was the capablenesse of godly Persons of Church-estate notwithstanding their ignorance of some weighty and necessary truths and the soundnesse of their Church-estate notwithstanding their admission and toleration of such ignorant members unto which the difference of the severall objects of their ignorance maketh nothing at all For the ignorance of weighty Truths of one sort as well as another necessary to salvation is a sinne of like destructive nature of what kinde soever the
I acknowledge the ordinary Ministers of the Gospel to be Pastors and Teachers yet it is farre from me to thinke howsoever the Examiner against my mind reporteth my mind otherwise that they are not properly Preachers to converts beget or make Disciples c. For first though the worke of ordinary Ministers were not to convert but to feed soules yet their act of feeding is properly exercised by preaching the word Timothy as a Minister is taught of Paul how to behave himselfe in the house of God which is the Church of God 1. Tim. 3.15 And this he gave him in charge as one great part of his worke to preach the word in season and out of season 2 Tim. 4.1 2. Besides they were neither Evangelists nor Apostles surely for then they could not have been so miscarried but the ordinary Ministers of the Gospel Pastors and Teachers of Churches of whom Paul speaketh Phil. 1.15 16. Some preach Christ saith he even of envie and strife and some of good will The one preach Christ of contention not sincerely the other of Love Againe Paul saith the Lord hath ordained that they who preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel 1 Cor. 9.14 Speaketh he that only of Apostles and Evangelists onely and not of ordinary Church-Officers of all doubtlesse according to Gal. 6.6 Moreover what are Preachers but publishers of the Gospel or glad tydings of the word of God for so saith the Apostle preach the word 2 Tim. 4.2 And what is preaching the word but explication and application of it and is not the explication and application of the word as fit to feed soules as to convert them Secondly when he makes it to be not the proper worke of Pastors and Teachers to preach for conversion but accidentall onely and counteth and calleth it a most preposterous worke for ordinary Ministers to preach for conversion c. He must needs give me leave to dissent from him my Reasons be 1. from the institution and worke of the Ministery to the worlds end whereof one is to make Disciples Matth. 28.19 20. Say not that is a peculiar Act of the Apostolick Office for the Lord Jesus speaketh of three Acts making Disciples Baptizing Teaching and in the exercise of these he promiseth to be with his Apostles and their successours unto the end of the world ver 20. Successours I say for the Apostles themselves were not to continue themselves in the exercise of those Acts to the end of the world in their owne persons but in their successors the ordinary Ministers of the Gospel Secondly from the end why Christ gave Pastors and Teachers as well as Apostles and Evangelists which was for the worke of the Ministery for the gathering together of the Saints as well as for the building of them up to a perfect man Ephes 4.11 12 13. Thirdly from the Estate of the Church wherein it seldome or never falleth out but some Hypocrites are found and besides them many Infants and these had need of converting Grace Fourthly from the ordinary way of Conversion which is by hearing the word and the word preached by a Minister sent Rom. 10.14 to 17. either therefore there must be no conversion of soules after the decease of the Apostles and Evangelists or those who are to be converted must be converted by private Christians or by the ordinary Ministers of the Gospel the successors of the Apostles but surely not the first for God will have in every age some or other converted to his Grace to praise his name throughout all Generations Not the second for they shall not be ordinarily converted by private Christians for the Apostle saith Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by a Preacher and him sent Therefore the third way remaineth that Faith is intended of God to be wrought from age to age by the ordinary Ministery of the Gospel If the Conversion of soules were accidentall to the worke of the Minister it were then praeter scopum efficientis besides the intent of the worker But it is neither beside the intention of the principall worker God for he worketh all things according to the Counsell of his owne will Ephes 1.11 nor besides the intention of the Minister for as hath been said it is one maine intent and end of his Office to make Disciples and gather Saints and Solomon maketh it an act of wisdome and therefore not an act of accidentall casualty to winne soules Prov. 11.30 If it be said why are they called Pastors if they be also Fathers Pastors are for feeding not for begetting Answ Pastors are also Fathers and though they be called Pastors yet the ordinary Ministers of the Gospel have other Titles also which imply more then feeding as they are called Teachers and Teachers of the ignorant Rom. 2.20 to minister saving knowledge to them as well as of men of understanding And Elders in the greek Language have their name from Embassadors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Elder from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Embassador and it is one worke of heavenly Embassadors to beseech men to be reconciled unto God 2 Cor. 5.20 yea and Pastors themselves whose worke is properly to feed their feeding is with the word of Life which is able to quicken dead soules to life as to nourish living soules to growth in Christ Jesus The whole worke of Peters Apostolicall calling was wrapped up in a Pastorall name and worke John 21.15 16 17. Those two Reasons therefore are voyd of true and sound reason which moved the Examiner to enter upon this passage First because saith he so many excellent and worthy persons mainly preach for Conversion and yet account themselves fixed and constant Ministers to particular Congregations c. Secondly that in these great Earth-quakes of all Estates civill and spirituall such a Ministry might be sought after whose proper worke might be preaching for converting of soules to Christ For by that which hath been said may plainely appeare that those constant Ministers who mainly preach for Conversion so be it they attend not to that onely but to building up also they doe herein attend to a proper worke of their calling and now to looke for another new Ministry say of Apostles or Evangelists to attend conversion of soules onely is to looke for a blessing which the Lord hath not promised and besides himselfe hath ordained sufficient ordinary meanes for that end as hath been shewed both here and in some former passages of this Treatise TO CHAP. XXVI IN this Chapter the Examiner falleth upon the second part of discourse about English Preachers to wit about the lawfulnesse of hearing of them and though he said before in the former chapter he would not engage himselfe in this Controversie yet here he giveth a double Argument against it His first Argument is from my testimony which how much he weighteth is better knowne to himselfe then to me Mr. Cotton saith he himselfe maintaineth that the dispensing of the word in a Church-state