by the helpe of the great god And therfore for a season now fare well ¶ Comyngo ¶ And fare well agayn wyth all myne harte ¶ Thus endeth the fyrst dyaloge declarynge the meruelous exystens of god ¶ The seconde dialoge of the immor talyte of mannes soule ¶ That it is conuenyent and nedefull to proue the immortalyte of mannes soule by reason Caput i. Gyngemyn ¶ Now by my troth well met for I thought as mych y t I shuld be sure to fynde y e here at my retorn ¶ Comyn ¶ And I made y e more hast because I wold be here before the. For I wold be lothe y t thou shuldest proue in me any brech of couenaunt or 〈◊〉 ¶ Gyn. ¶ Therein thou art y e more to be coÌ„mendyd therfore no we let vs go to our mater that we dyd promyse betwene vs to dyspute that is to say to proue by naturall reason only that the soule of man is immortall and shall neuer dye ¶ Comyngo ¶ I wot well thou dydest say to me that thou coudest proue it by naturall reason but I had leuer here tell of the other conclusyon that thou spakest of that is to say y t there is a purgatory where the soule of man shalbe punysshed after it it separate from the body which is more coÌ„uenyeÌ„t and more nede full to be prouyd than to proue the immortalyte of maÌ„nes soule for there is but few people but that they beleue that the soule of man is immortal ¶ Gyn. ¶ And I thynke it is both conuenyent and nedefull to ê“ue fyrst the immortalyte of mannes soule for as touchyng the fyrst poynte I can not so coÌ„uenyeÌ„tly proue to y e by reason y t there is a purgatory nor so well to satysfye thy mynde therin except I shuld fyrst proue to the by reason that the soule of man is immortall for that y t other the same groundys pryncyples whych serue for the fyrst wyll conuenyeÌ„tly serue for the other or ellys they wyll be antecedentes necessary to proue the sayd consequeÌ„s And as to the seconde poynte me thynketh it is now very nedefull and for a coÌ„men vertuous welth to proue by reason that y â— soule of man shuld be immortall For this I merk meruelously whych I se by a comen experyens vsed in the worlde and specyally in my contrey y t many whyche be called the great wyse men of the worlde whyche haue depe and hye lernynge and also excellent wyt do lyue abomynably and vycyously some in pompe and pryde some so inordynate couetous that be neuer sacyate some in rancor malyce and dysdeyn and many of them do neuer coÌ„uerte from those vyces duryng theyr lyues nother by exhortacyon prechyng techyng nother by payne punyshment sekenes nor other thyng except it be for a very lytyll season onely whyle the payne endureth I saye than yf suche wyse men and great clerkys so well studyed and lernyd beleuyd perfytely and surely that theyr soules were immortall shuld haue payn or ioy in an other world accordynge as they deserue here in yerth I suppose verely they wold neuer contynew in theyr vycyous lyuynge as they do wherfore it is a great coÌ„iecturall argument vnto me that they beleue not theyr soules to be imortall But that they labour and study to bryng other to beleue the immortalyte of maÌ„nes soule because they wold haue them obedyent vnto them and therby to maynteyne theyr owne vyces voluptuous appetites ¶ Comyn ¶ Nay god forbed it shuld be so but I thynke rather it is the fraylte of theyr nature and that they do but forget to do theyr duties to god for y â— tyme but yet yf there be any suche men as thou spekest of whych wyll neuer be conuerted by exhortacyoÌ„ prechyng sekenes nor other punyshment me thynketh for theÌ„ there is no remedy ¶ Gyng ¶ yes forsoth this thyng whych I purpose now to shew the ê‘ad uenture may be a remedy and helpe therin For there is nothynge in the worlde shall alter and chaunge a mannes mynde and beleue so well and surely as shall the iudgemeÌ„t of his owne reason for when a man is set in the perfyte beleue of ony thyng though the prayer and opinioÌ„ of other caÌ„ not turne his minde yet wheÌ„ a nother reason cometh to his mâ—nd which destroyeth that fyrst reason which causyth hym to beleue his fyrst opynioÌ„ to be true y â— same other reason so comeÌ„ to his mâ—nde shal chauÌ„ge his fyrst beleue and opynyon Therfore I say for suche men as beleue not the immortalyte of mannes soule yt is necessary to persuade them by reasons and argumentes and such as they neuer herd before or ellys though they haue before hard them yet they dyd neuer in theyr myndes wyth delyberacyon depely dyscusse them And such reasons so moued vnto them shal cause them to alter and chaunge theyr beleues and opynyons And wher they beleuyd before that the soule of man was mortall they shall by y â— per suasyon of such reasons chaunge theyre opynyons and beleue that it is immortall and that it shall neuer dye ¶ what is a dyffynycyon and what is a descrypcyon Caput ii COmyngo ¶ By my trouthe thou sayst well vnto me therfore I pray the now shew me some of those reasons whych thou thynkest necessary to proue the immortalyte of mannes soule for the contentacyoÌ„ of my mynde therin ¶ Gynge ¶ with a ryght good wyll But yet yf I shulde satysfye thy mynde in thys mater by way of argument and reasonynge we had nede fyrste to agre betwene vs in y â— wordes and termes y t we shall speke so that I may meane the same thynge alway y t thou doste meane and that thou meane alway the same thynge that I meane For yf I speke a worde and by that worde that I speke I do meane fyre by the same self worde thou dost meane water we shal neuer thaÌ„ agre in our argumentes and reasons nor by our argument neuer brynge forth nor proue no true nor good coÌ„clusyon Therfore yf we shulde talke of y â— body and of the soule of man it is fyrst necessary to agre betwene vs what thyng we call a body what thynge we call a soule and what thynge we call a maÌ„ ¶ Comyn ¶ Thou sayste well therin therfore fyrste I pray the tell me thyn opynyoÌ„ theri what thing thou callest a body what thing thou callest a soule what thing thou callest a maÌ„ ¶ Gyn. ¶ I cal a body as all y â— phylosophres afore haue defyned yt ¶ Co. ¶ what meanest thou by this worde defyned Gyn. ¶ Mary dyffinycioÌ„ as the phylosophers say is a rule whyche sheweth and techyth vs the beynge of the thynge what the thing is only by termes and wordes essencyall But a descrypâ—on is a rule whych she weth and techeth vs the beynge of the thynge and what the thynge is by wordesaccidentall and wordes
essenciall be those which sygnyfye such an essencyall thynge whych can not be taken a way from y â— same self thyng whych we wold haue diffynyd y t thyng styll to remayn But accydentall thynge be those whych may be takeÌ„ a way from y â— thyng wych we wold haue descrybyd yet y t thing may styll remayne as whyte black hard soft good bad such other be termes accydentall for a horse or a man for whytnes or blacknes hardnes or softnes goodnes or badnes may be chaunged in a horse or man takeÌ„ a way from those thynges yet the same selfe horse or man may remayne styll in theyr substauncyall beynge therfore they be callyd accydentall thynges for a hors or a man but those termes a body and sensyble be termes essencyall for a horse or a man for they may not be taken awaye from the substaunce of a horse or a man and the same selfe hors or man to remayne and therfore they be cal lyd essencyall termes for a hors or a man ¶ what is a body what is a soule and what is a man Caput iii. COmyngo ¶ All y t I ê‘ceyue well am agreed w t y â— therin therfore I pray the procede and tell me what thou callest a body and what thynge thou callest a soule and what thou callest a man ¶ Gyng ¶ I call that a body as I sayd before as the phylosophers haue dyffyned yt that is thus A body is that which hath length brede thickenes And a soule as y â— phylosophers say is y e acte of a naturall body hauynge lyfe in power And a man is a body with a soule sensytyf and reasonable But yet me thynketh there is a better dyffynycyon than that for the soule after myn opinyon ¶ Comyn what is that ¶ Gyn. ¶ Surely after myne mynde a soule is no nother thynge but a lyfely power and ought not alway to be called the acte of the naturall body hauynge lyfe for I thynke that thou wylt graunt that the soule of man when it is separate froÌ„ his corruptyble body is a soule yet it is not than the acte of the body for thaÌ„ it doth nothynge with the body nor that body doth no acte nor hathe no naturall doyng by reason of the soule and therfore it semeth it is no good dyf fynycion of the soule to call it the acte of the bodye but the best dyffynycyon of the soule is to call it the lyfely power ¶ Comyn ¶ yf that be thyn opynion than thou goest clene from the dyffynicyon of the phylolophers and than I suppose that few clerkys therin wyll take thy parte ¶ Gyng ¶ Nay it is not clere agayne the phylosophers mynde for peraduenture whan they gaue that dyffymcyon they ment that the soule beyng ioyned wyth the body is y â— acte of the body ¶ Comyn ¶ well than go forth with thy purpose ¶ Gyng ¶ Then furthermore I say that of that soule there is thre dyeâ—rsytees that is to say a soule vegetatyf a soule sensytyf and a soule intâ—llectyf A soule vegetatyue is that lyfe that is in a plante tre gras herbe or frute whych do grow A soule sensytyue is that lyfe which is in a brute beste whyche occupyeth and vseth the. v. wyttys and lacketh reason and vnderstandynge as is a hors a cow a byrde or a fysh And y â— v. wâ—ttys by the tastynge the smellynge the herynge the syght and the touchynge And therfore euery kynde of bestes hauynge these v. wyttys haue a soule sensytyue But a soule intellectyue is that whych hath a lyue lâ— vnderstandynge to knowe good from â—ll and ryght from wronge And therfore a man is that creature to whom god hath gyuen this soule intâ—f whyche we call the reasonable soule And because man hathe growyng as plantes herbes haue he is therfore called lyfelv because he hathe the vse of the. v. sences as brute bestes haue therfore he is callyd â—nsyble And because he hath reason and vnderstandynge therfore he is callâ—d reasonable Therfore a man is nothyng ellys but a lyfely body sen syblâ— and reasonable so those two thynges ioyned togyther that is to say the body and the reasonable soule do make a man ¶ Comyn ¶ This is a very good introduccyon to our mater and a reasonable therfore I am content to graunte to the all these forsayd conclusyons therfore I praye the go forth wyth thy argument let me see how thou canst proue by rea son that the soule of man is immortall and shall neuer dye ¶ Gynge ¶ That I trust I shall proue the but yet fyrst or we go to the reasonyng â—rof 〈◊〉 I shall proue to the y â— it is wysdom for a maÌ„ to beleue that y â— soule of man is immortall and shal neuer dye and that it is great foly to bâ—ue the contrary that it is immortall ¶ Comyngo ¶ How canst thou proue that ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ Forsothe thus ¶ That it is wysdome to beleue that the soule of man is immortall Caput iiii A Man must nedys other beleue that the soule of man is immortal and shall neuer dye or ellys mortall and shall perysh with the body but it is more wysdome and profyte for a man to beleue that it shall neuer dye then the coÌ„trary For in euery doutfull thynge the more surer way is to be chosen But yf thou beleue that it is immortall shall neuer dye though it be not so yet that byleue by no possybylyte can neuer hurt the nor dysprofyte the for yf it be immortall and shall haue punyshment after for his desert that beleue maye do the great good yf thou lyue the more vertuously And yf it be mortall and shall dye yet yf thou beleue y â— it is immortall y t beleue shall neuer after thy deth do the hurte whyther thou lyue in this worlde vertuously or vycyously when thou hast no lyfe nor beynge after thy soule is departyd from thy bodye But on the other syde yf thou beleue that it is mortall and shall dye with thy body that be leue ê‘adueÌ„ture may do y â— great hurt For yf thy soule lyue after thy body and be punysshed in an other world for thyne offeÌ„ces done in this world yf the boldnes of that beleue haue caused y â— to lyue the more vycyously in this worlde for whyche thou arte in an other world punysshed then that beleue that thy soule is mortall is cause to the of great harme therfore to beleue that y â— soule of man shall dye with the body one way may be cause to man afterward of great hurte But of this beleue that the soule of maÌ„ shall neuer dye shall neuer by no possibylite be hurtfull to maÌ„ afterward nor there can not folo we therof to man any harme wherfore I may well conclude y â— a maÌ„ to beleue that his soule is incorruptyble and shall neuer dye is great wysdome and to beleue the
hye hole ordener of al thynge so it must nedys folowe that there is but one god and no mo whyche is the fyrste cause begynnynge ruler and ordener of all thyngys and is but one in hym selfe ¶ That god is hole in dyuerse placys Caput xvi ALso as to the other poynte it is not incoÌ„uenient y â— that same selfe one god may be hole in dyuers places for thou seest by experyeÌ„ce that the sowne of a thyng or a voyce or a worde spoken may be hole hard in dyuers placys and of dyuers men atones yet euery man hereth the hole voyce sown or worde yt rebouÌ„dyth hole in euery maÌ„nes erys Also thy soule and lyfe of thy body is hole in thy hole body and hole in euery parte of thy body or elles yf ê‘te of thy body as thy hande or thy fotâ— were cut away or destroyed ê‘te of thy soule were â—ynysshed destroyed but of that thou seest at thyne eye the contrary experyence and so thou seest well that thy hole soule and lyfe is hole in dyuers placys wherfore syth thou seest well y t these thynges which be but y e creatures of god haue suche power of beynge y t they may be hole in dyuers placys yt foloweth wel that god that is creatour and cause of all hath such power nobilite of beynge that he maye be hole in dyuers placys ¶ Comyn ¶ Now that is one of the properyst conclusyons for my lernynge that euer I harde ¶ Gyn. ¶ yet tary a lytell whyle and I shall shew the a nother conclusyoÌ„ touchyng y e meruelous existens of god whiche peraduenture shall please the as well as that ¶ Comyn ¶ That I wold be glad to here therfore I pray the shewe me what yt is ¶ That god is eternall Cap. xvii Gyngemyn ¶ By these forsayd coÌ„clusioÌ„s I shall now proue to y â— y â— god is eternall ¶ Comyngo ¶ Thou haste me thynketh prouyd that to me substauncyally all redy for thou haste prouyd that god is infynyte wythout begynnyng or endyng and that I call eternall ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ Naye now I see well thou perceyuest not the perfyte grounde of thys thynge ¶ Comyn ¶ why what callest thou eternall ¶ Gyn. ¶ Forâ—othe Eternall is y e very ê‘fyte possession of all to gyther of lyfe intermynable y t is to say wythout chauÌ„gynge of tyme but all thynge y t is in the worlde lyuynge in tyme occupyeth tyme present procedeth from tyme past vn to tyme to come for yt hath loste the tyme of yester daye yet occupyeth not the tyme of to morowe For no man lyueth in thys lyfe but in thys present mouable transytorye moment And euery thynge that lyueth is in thys worlde occupyeth atones but one lytell moment of tyme so y â— ioy that any creature can haue in thys lyfe is as no ioy For I trow thou wylt graunt that that ioy whych thou haddest yesterday whych is now passyd is now to the no ioy and y â— ioy whyche thou shalt haue to morow not yet coÌ„men is yet to the no ioy for yf the pleasure whych thou haddest yesterday in tastynge of delycate metes be now past theÌ„ hast thou nowe no such pleasure in tastynge or yf thy body shall haue after thys tyme an case and pleasure in the auoydynge of the payne whyche thou now â—du ryst yet hast thou no suche pleasure now so all the beynge lyfe pleasure ioy whyche any creature hath in thys lyfe is but durynge one lytell moment whyche is shorte and lytell worthy to be called any perfyte beynge orlyfe or any perfyte ioy but the eterne existens of god whyche must excell all other beynges hath in yt selfe suche a nobylyte that yt comprehen deth all the hole plente of lyfe togyther and knytteth tyme paste tyme to come wyth the tyme present And nothynge is to god past nor to come but all thynges be to hym present For yf any thynge were to hym newly knowen thaÌ„ god had not all perfyte knowlege in hym at the beginning And so than there shuld be in god some mutabylyte and chaunge aug mentacron of knowlege and becawse he had eueâ— most perfyte beynge and most perfyte knowlege and his knowlege can not be separate from hys beynge as I haue proued to the before it must nedys folowe y t god knewe all thynge euer euery thynge was euer is shalbe to hym present ¶ Comyn ¶ Thys is now one of the meruelâ—st conclusyoÌ„s y t euer I herd but syth I now ê‘ceyue y t nothyng is worthy to be called eterne but onely god what shall I call those thynges whych haue such an existence in transytory momentes that neuer shall haue ende nor fynysh ¶ Gyn. ¶ Certes yf I shulde gyue them a condygne name I must call them perpetuall and the existence of god eternall and sythe that god is present euery where and all thynge is present vnto hym and y e vnderstandyng of god is hys very beynge yt must nedys folowe that god vnderstaÌ„deth seeth and knoweth euery thynge in the worlde euer present before hym euery maÌ„nes thought euery act that is past and euery thyng that is pre sent and euery thyng that is to come and knoweth what euery creature hath done doth and shall do what euery man doth or thynketh or shall thynke or do so euery thyng that euer was is or shall be is now to hym knowen and is now present before him ¶ Comyn ¶ Now doutles that is one of the noblest conclusions that euer I hard syth I was borne and therfore I thanke the wyth all my harte and not onely for thys but also for all thy other reasons whyche thou haste made to me here before wher by thou hast so forcyd me that I must nedys by reason graunt that there is a god whyche by hys hye prouydence ruleth and gouerneth all and coÌ„ serueth and kepeth all and regardeth and taketh hede to all the worlde and to euery thynge ther in conteyned But at the begynnynge of our coÌ„ munvcacyon thou she wedest me that thou coudest proue to me by reason a nother conclusyon pryncyple that is to say that the soule of maÌ„ is im mortall and shall neuer dye ¶ Gyng ¶ That conclusyon I purpose and can proue to the wyth so good demonstratyue reasons that I dout not but I shall therin ryght well satysfye thy mynde but yet now becawse I haue a lytell besynes to do I praye the spare me for a lytell season And wythin the space of an houre or lytell more I shall mete the here agayne than we shall procede in our argument ¶ Comyn ¶ wyth ryght good wyll I am content I shall not fayle by goddys grace to be here agayn wythin thys houre and than dylygently to attende vpon thy retorne therfore I pray the fayle not to kepe thy promyse ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ I shall not fayle to kepe my promyse
contary is great folyshnes ¶ Co. ¶ That reason prouyth it more wysdome to beleue y ◠immortalyte of the soule but yet that reason prouyth not the soule to be immortall ¶ yf the soule of man shulde not be immortall than were man the most vnhappyest of all other crea tures and bestys Caput v. Gyngemyn ¶ But yet yf thou wylt gyue me dilygent heryng I trust I shall proue the by reason that the soule of man is immortall and that it is infynite and shall neuer dye nor vtterly perysh and that I shall proue y ◠by dyuerse reasons ¶ Comyngo ¶ I praye the by what reasons ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ Dowtles by many good reasons wherfore my fyrst reason is thys There is no creature of god in yerth whyche dothe to god so myche honour nor prayseth god so myche as man dothe nor also there is no creature in yerth that hathe any knowledge and reason to knowe how to do honour to god saue only man than syth that man is only that crea ture whyche doth honour to god here in yerth it is conuenyent and stan deth moste with equyte and ryghtfull iudgement and goodnes of god that god shuld therfore rewarde man with a lyfe and a beynge more plea saunt and better than any other creature or beste here in yerth But the lyfe and beynge whyche man hath here in yerth is more wreched sorowfull and worse than the lyfe of any other brute beste here in yerthe ergo it is conuenyent and necessarye that man haue an other lyfe after the corrupcyon of his body and that must nedys be the lyfe and beynge of hys reasonable soule because his body after his mortall deth hath by nature no maner of lyfe ¶ Comyn ¶ why is the lyfe of man here in yerthe more wreched sorowfull and worse thā the lyfe of any other brute beste ¶ Gyn. ¶ That I shall she we the for thou knowest well ynoughe seest by experyence that the body of man is more feble and tender than the bodye of any other brute beste for the bodye of man is all tender and naked and myche more tender than any other brute beste for y ◠fysshes haue of theyr nature shell◠or skalys to couer and defend theyr bodyes the best◠be full of here and haue thycke skynnes the foules haue fethers but man is tender naked y t yf he had not couering for him made of other beste skynne or here or other thynges he shuld perysh for colde for whych thyng to be gotten man must laboure and study where the bestes fysh or foule nede not to labour for y ◠obteynynge therof because they haue all such thynge nedefull for thē gyuen them by nature so that the lyfe of man is more ne defull wreched than the lyfe of any other brute beste Also man taketh must take great labour for the obteynynge of his necessary fode lyuyng as to tyll the grounde wyth great labour to get hym drynk fode where the bestes take no such payne for drynke nor other fode but fynde alway the water redy for theyr drynke and all other thynge ordeyned by nature redy for theyr fode without any study or laboure therfore to be taken So the lyfe of man is more laborous paynfull than y ◠lyfe of any other brute beste Also mā idureth mych vexacyō thought study vnquietnes of mynde whych the brute bestes indure not for though y t man knoweth surely that he shall dye oft taketh thought therfore yet the brute bestys haue no knowlege of theyr deth nor take no thought therfore And also man doth take thought care for losse of ryches losse of honour or dygny te many a man taketh so great care for losse of such ryches honoure that duryng his lyfe therfore he can neuer be mery And som man taketh so great thought and care therfore that oft tymes he dyeth for sorow mē and women also desyre and couet gay and fresh apparell to couer theyre bodyes goodly garnysshed and fayre houses all bewteous syghte plea saunt to the eye as goodly pyctures and ymages they desyre and delyte also in swete smellys sauours and to here songes and armony swete sownes pleasaunt to the ere and taketh great payne laboure and study vexacyon and vnquyetnes of mynde for the obteynyng of such thynges But yet the brut beste careth for no such thynges but regardeth nothing but only for his fode his bodely lust ease pleasure Therfore it proueth well y t man indureth mych vexaciō thought study vnquietnes of mynd whiche the brute bestes indure not Therfore as I sayd before yf y ◠soule of man shuld not haue a nother lyfe and beynge after it is separate from the body then were man in worse case than any other brute beste whych were not consonaunt to the iustyce nor goodnes of god that man whych of all creatures yerthly gyueth only honour and prayse to god shulde be rewarded wyth a lyfe more wreched wore than any other beste in yerth And therfore god of his iustyce and goodnes must rewarde hym with a better lyfe than that whyche any brute beste indureth whych can not be excepte y t his soule haue a lyfe and beynge after it is separate from this corruptyble body So of conuenyence it foloweth that the soule of man must nedys be immortall ¶ Comyngo ¶ That is a ryght proper reason whyche thou hast made but hast any other reason than that ¶ Gynge ¶ ye forsoth that I haue and therfore my seconde reason shall be this ¶ That the soule of man vseth his operacyon properte without the body and so may haue a beynge wythout the body Caput vi THe very operacyon properte of the reasonable soule is to know and to vnderstande then yf the grosse body of man be the cawse of the beynge of the soule so that the soule take his perfeccion ano corrup cyon of the grosse body then can the soule neuer vse hys operacyon pro perte wythout the body But yf the soule of man may vse hys operacyon and properte wythout occupyenge of that grosse bodye than is not the body the cause of the perfeccyon and corrupcyon of the soule but y ◠soule maye vse his operacyon and properte wythout occupyenge of the grosse body for the lesse that the bodye or the. v. wyttys is moued or styred the better and the more perfytly doth the soule vse his operacyon properte For when a man moueth not wyth the body nor seeth nothynge nor hereth no noyse nor tasteth nor smelleth nothynge that shulde trouble the body than doth the soule of man vse hys operacyon and properte of vnderstandynge most clerely and perfytly And also yt hath ben oft tymes harde and knowen that dyuers men in theyr dremys haue seen many vy syons some in theyr dreme thynk them self in theyr lyuyng bodyes to be in other placys talkynge wyth other folkes
and doynge dyuers thynges to theyr pleasure or dyspleasure when in dede theyr bodyes be not there but they lye in theyr beddes styll a slepe and these thynges and vysyons whych they se in theyr dremys is the operacyon of theyr soules for theyr bodyes so lyenge a slepe do see nor do no suche thynge and therfore syth the soule of man doth see and doth suche thynges wythout the body it fo lo weth well that the soule of man hath a beyng wythout the body and so may haue his beynge when it is seueryd and separate from the body ¶ Co. ¶ Me thinketh that reason ê“ueth as well y t the soule of a brute best may haue his beynge when it is separate from the body of that beste For as I suppose a dog or a hog or any other brute best doth dreme as well as a maÌ„ doth for a dog in his slepe wyll barke and open lyke as he doth wheÌ„ he is wakynge a hog and dyuers other bestys wyl crye and make noyse in theyr slepe lyke as they do beynge wakyng ¶ Gyn. ¶ As to that I say in myn opinyon that no brute beste in y â— world doth dreme but only man nor all the worlde can not proue the contrary And I saye that though a dog or other beste doth crye and make noyse in his slepe yet yt dremeth not nor seeth nothynge For this we see oft by experyence y t many a man in his slepe dothe speke and moue and yet he dremeth not nor seeth no thyng nor when he is wakynge can nother tell nor remember that he dre med of any thynge all the whyle that he so spake in his slepe nor saw no thynge that whyle so that somtyme a man speketh and maketh noyse in his slepe and seeth no thynge nor dremeth not and yet somtyme he speth and maketh mouynge or noyse in his slepe and dothe dreme see vysyons but that spekynge and mouyng whych a man hath in his slepe whyle he seeth nothynge nor his mynde occupyed cometh only of the na turall dysposycyon and complexyon of the body and it is only the opera cyon of the body and not the operacyoÌ„ of the soule because y t the mynde is no thynge occupyed that whyle nor â—yueth nor seeth no thynge that whyle For profe wherof yf ye wyll sodeynly pryck a man beynge a slepe he wyll moue and styr and â—aduiture make crye or make noyse or sowne and yet dremeth not that whyle of no suche hurte done to his bodye nor his soule saw no thyng that while and yf he be sodeynly wakyd therwith he caÌ„ nother tell nor shew of no maner dreme nor vysyon in his slepe that he had that whyle whych operacion of the naturall dysposycyon and com plexyon of the body euery brute beest may haue in his slepe that naturall dysposycion of the body doth cause y t beste to crye moue in his slepe as when it feleth payne it wyll crye in token of that payne as it doth wheÌ„ it is wakynge and when it felyth ease and pleasure it wyll make noyse or sowne or make some mouynge betokenynge the same ease and pleasure as yt doth when it is wakynge But yet there is no brute beste in the world whych is able to make any noyse crye or sowne in his slepe other wyse y t it is able to do when it is wakynge but when it is wakynge it is not able to do any thing touchyng only the operacyon and properte of y â— reasonable soule for yt can not reken nor count no nombers nor dyscusse what is ryght and wronge good nor bad nor make no argumentes nor reasons whyche operacyon propertees of the reasonable soule no brute beste can haue nor vse in his slepe because he can not haue them nor vse them when he is wakyng but a man hath those propertees of the soule as well wakynge as slepynge For wakynge he can reken and counte noÌ„ bers and reason and dyscusse what is ryght and wronge good and bad and inuente and fynde many sutell reasons and argumentes whiche the brute beste can not do a man can also vse the same lyenge a slepe in hys dremys for many man also beyng a slepe in his dreme doth fynd dyuers reasons argumentes ê“uynge some conclusyon of some scyens and faculte whych reason cam neuer to hys mynd before whyle he was wakig also many a man in his dreme hath had dyuers vysyons hath forseen had knowlege of thynges to come whyche hath afterwarde fallen playn ly and truely accordyng to his vysyon some of promocyon wynnyng and somtyme of losse and bodely hurte whyche after hath fallen to hym and many a man in his dreme hath seen and knoweÌ„ his owne destruccioÌ„ and dethe Thus the soule of man hath his knowlege and vseth his properte of vnderstandynge not occupyenge the body wythout any helpe of the bodye or of any of hys v. senses or of any organe of the sences or of any member of the bodye And yet forthermore many a man we ses by experyence beynge seke feble and weke and the soule nygh the poynte of departynge from the body a lytell before the houre of his deth hath for seen and fortolde his owne deth and also the deth of other folkes and dy uers other thynges whyche afterwarde haue truely come to passe And also brode wakyng hath seen many sightes vysions of dyuers straunge thynges of spyryt or deuyls of dyuers persons whyche haue ben dede before and shewed them that were than present that those vysyons dyd gyue hym perfyte knowlege that he must nedys dye whych straunge visy ons other persons beyng there present wyth hym coud in no wyse see nor perceyue wherfore yf the soule of man shuld dye and corrupt with the bo dy it semeth agayns reason that it shulde be so perfyte in his beynge to vse his operacyoÌ„ and properte of knowlege vnderstandyng so quyckly truely perfytly so nygh the tyme of his corrupcyon but rather when yt begynneth to dye and corrupte yt shuld begynne to wax weke feble in vsynge his operacyon and properte wherfore vpon these â—inissys I maâ— well conclude that syth the soule of man vsyth his operacyon properte moste perfytly without occupyenge of the body or helpe of the body that the most parfyte beynge of the soule is without the body so the body can not be the cause of the corrupcyon of the soule of man but that the soule may be wythout the body nor that the soule dyeth not wheÌ„ the body dyeth nor when it is separate from the body but lyueth and hath his beyng after and is immortall and incorruptyble ¶ Comyn ¶ That reason is ryght good and apparaunt ¶ Gynge ¶ Nay I praye the take pacyence for a whyle and here me dylygently for I haue dyuers other reasons to proue the â—ortalyte of mannes soule ¶ Comyn ¶ I praye the go to I shall be glad to
gyue the herynge ¶ That god doth wyll the perpetuall lyfe welth and preseruacyon of mannes soule and that his wyll must be perfourmed Cap. vii Gyngemyn ¶ Another reason I shall shew the which is thys because the chyldren be somwhat lyke vnto the father and also because y â— fa ther knoweth that they be of his nature therfore the father must dothe naturally loue his children and euer wylleth the welth and prosperyte of hys chyldren styll to contynew So lyke wyse because y â— man is lyke vnto god for y t y t god hath made hym to his symylytude because he hath know lege vnderstandyng somwhat resemblynge to god whyche most hyghe knowlege and vnderstandynge is euer in god as I haue proued y â— here before in our fyrste dyaloge and dysputacyon And also because the soule of man is of the nature of god and procedeth and cometh only of god it must than consequeÌ„tly folowe that god doth loue the soule of man and doth greatly wyll the perpetuall welth and preseruacyon of the soule of man stâ—ll to contynew And yf god do wyll the perpetuall welth and preseruacyoÌ„ of that soule that great wyll of god must 〈◊〉 take effecte for â—f god shulde haue euer a great wâ—ll to a thynge and that thynge shulde neuer take 〈◊〉 than god shuld neuer haue hys wyll fulfylled and thaÌ„ thaÌ„ that shulde be a great dyspleasure to god and so than god shulde haue a dyspleâ— lyfe and beynge and no â—oyfull lyfe nor beynge whyche is coÌ„trary to that which I prouyd to the before in our fyrst dyaloge dyspu tacyon that god must nedys haue the moste ioyfull lyfe and beynge that can be and therfore syth that the great wyll of god is to haue the soule of mâ—n in perpetuall welth and preseruacyon â—t must nedys folow that the 〈◊〉 of man must haue a perpetuall lyfe and must neoys be unmortall ¶ Câ—myn ¶ Tâ—at reason me thynketh proueth not thy purpose for yf â—od haue a wyl that mannes soule shuld be perpetually preseruyd that of 〈◊〉 to that wyll of god must nedys take effecte or elles god shulde haue no â—full lyfe nor beynge therof shuld folowe that god shuld suffer no 〈◊〉 soule to be dampned ¶ Gyn. ¶ Nay that obâ—eccyon maye be well assoylâ—d by the symylytude that I dyd shew the before of y â— father and chyldren For though a father hauynge many chyldren haue a natu rall wyll to the welth and perpetuall preseruacyon of all his chyldren yet yf any one of hys chyldren do dysplease hym and haue â—yll concycâ—ons or doth hurte or intend the dyspleasure and destruccioÌ„ of his father that father than wyll for suche vnkyndnes punysh hym tyll he can reconcyle hym agayne to goodnes but yf he wyll not be reconcyled he wyll than vtterly caste hym to perpetuall payne or prysonment and that is for the great loue 〈◊〉 that suche a father hath do to iustyce So lyke wyse god whâ—che oâ— his infynyte goodnes and mercy hath a wyll to the welth and perpetuall preseruacion of mannis soule and also a good wyll euer to do iustyâ— hath ordeyned mannes soule to haue perpetuall ioy also hathe ordeyned punyshment for euery soule that dothe offende accordynge to his desert So that the wyll of god doth euer take effect accordyng to his mercy and iustyce somtyme to rewarde by his goodnes and mercy and somtyme to punysh by his iustyce And also because god is louyng to maÌ„ and is mercyfull and iuste god can not mynyster his iustyce suffycyent vnto maÌ„ except that his soule shuld be immortall and haue a nother lyfe after it is separate from the body ¶ Comyn ¶ yet me thynketh thou hast not suffâ—ntly prouyd that conclusyon that god can not mynyster his iustyce vnto man excepte his soule shulde be immortall ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ yes that I truste I shall proue the incoÌ„tynent by a good apparant rea son yf thou wylt here it ¶ Comyngo ¶ yes mary with all myn hert ther fore I pray the say on ¶ yf the soule of man shuld not be immortall than god doth not mynyster to euery man equall iustyce Caput viii Gyngemyn ¶ Euery reasonable maÌ„ wyll graunte that god whych is the fyrst cause of euery thyng the fouÌ„teyne of all goodnes that he muste ener be ryghteous and tuste as I haue proued to the in our fyrste dyaloge and by his iustyce he muste rewarde and punysh euery man accordyng to his desert But we se that there be dyuers men and haue ben dyuers men in the world which haue done dyuers and many good dedâ— with good mynde taken great payne and labour for the loue of god also suffered pacyently many wrongys hurtes and rebukes for the loue of god and neuer had rewarde therfore in this worlde And sone after such payne and labour takeÌ„ and such good dedes done by them or such wronges suffered for goddes sake they haue dyed and neuer rewarde in this world therfore So on y â— other syde dyuers men offende god in this worlde and do many euyll dedes neuer punysshed suffycyently in this worlde therfore Therfore it is necessary that man haue a lyuyng and a beynge after this bodely dethe that god maye rewarde hym and punysh hym by his iustyce for those good dedes and euell dedes that he dyd in this worlde for the which he was not fuffycyently rewarded noâ— punysh whyle he was here For elles god doth not minister to hym equal iustyce And also a maÌ„ to honour god in this world it were a thyng but in vayn yf y t he shuld dye without any rewarde whyle he were lyuynge here nor neuer haue therfore rewarde after his dethe in no place elles where And also it shuld conforte a man to lyue vycyously and to satysfye his owne voluptuous appetytes and to the satysfyenge alway of his inordynate desyre and pleasure and froward mynde and wyll and to do vycyous Aboâ—ynable dedys to the destruccyon and hurte of his neyghbours yf he shulde truste to auoyde all punyshment therfore to be had in this life nor neuer thynke to haue punyshment therfore nor make any satysfacioÌ„ after his deth in no other place elles where therfore I saye by the conue ment iustice of god it is necessary that man must haue an other lyfe and beynge after his soule is separate from his bodye where he maye receyue dew rewarde or punishment for such actes for the which he was not suffi ciently rewarded nor punysched whyle he was here liuing in erth which lyfe and beyng must nedys be the lyfe of his immortall soule ¶ The soule of man is made to be parte taker of blysfulnes and ioye that euer shall endure Caput ix Gyngemin ¶ Another reason to ê“ue y â— immortalite of maÌ„nes soule is this The soule of man which is made to the syimlitude likenes of god because of the vnderstandinge is made to perceyue and to haue
and to be parttaker of blysfulnes ioy for yf the reasonable soule which is formed to the lykenes of god shuld not be made to attayne blesfulnes and ioy then no creature is made to attayne and come to the blesfulnes and ioy theÌ„ yf it be made to attayne blesfulnes and ioy eyther than that blesfulnes and ioy is for euer to indure or ellâ— to endure for a season but so to endure ioy for a season and to haue an ende therof is no blesfulnes but heuynes for then shulde the soule euer be sadde heuy to thynke it shulde departe from that ioy that it endureth for that season for lyke as we be sadde of that sorowe that cometh to vs agaynst our wyll so be we sadde for that ioy that goth from vs agaynst our wyll then yf the sowle shulde be sure to departe from that ioy that it hathe it shulde haue cause to morne to be sad therfore it semeth than that the soule is not made to 〈◊〉 that ioy and blesfulnes that endureth but for a season which is no ioy but wrechednes But it is made to perceyue that very ioy that endureth euer Therfore it may be coÌ„cluded that the soule of man is made to endure for euer and so must nedys be immortall ¶ That the soule of man knoweth and perceyuâ—th many thynges without the body nor it dependeth not nor corrupteth not wyth the body Cap. x. Gyngemyn ¶ Another reason is this we perceyue that to the bodye belongeth v. wyttes that is to say the herynge seynge felyng tastâ—ng and smellynge and the organs and instrumentes of the. v. wyttes bâ—n the â—res for herynge the eyes for seynge the nose for smellynge the mouth with the tonge for tastynge the other members for touchynge but our soule we se perceyueth knoweth and vnderstaÌ„deth many thynge that be not perceyued knowen nor vnderstande by the bodye nor by no parte of the body nor by none of the. v. wyttes For the soule wythout oc cupyeng any of the. v. wyttes conceyueth thynges that haue no bodyes for it knoweth the goodnes of god it knoweth right aud wronge truthe and falshede the soule can rekeÌ„ and tell nombers it knoweth ê“porcyoÌ„s it perceyueth thynges paste and thynges to come all though they be insensyble by meanes of the bodye or by the. v. wyttes all those thynges y t haue no bodyes can not be seen hard nor smellyd tasted nor touched by none of the. v. wyttes nor by no instrumente nor organe of them yet can the soule perceyue all suche incorporall and insensyble thynges of hys owne kynde and by hym selfe and therfore it appereth that y â— soule hathe his operacyon besyde the body and that the nature of the soule of man is not of necessyte dependenge to the body nor to the. v. wyttes nor to no parte of them nor corrupteth not when the body and the. v. wyttes bene corrupt but hath his beynge without the body and so is immortall ¶ That the naturall appetyte of the soule of man is to come to the knowlege of the hye cause whych is god Caput xi Gyngemyn ¶ A nother reason yet I shall shewe the whyche is this The soule of man knoweth it selfe yt knoweth euery thynge the beyng of euery thing the cause of the beyng of euery thyng it knoweth thynges fynyte and thynges infynyte the causes therof and so further and further hyer and hyer and cause by cause neuer cesyth tyll it hath atteyned the knowlege of the fyrst cause of all thynge whych is god that is infynyte and the nere yt doth atteyne the knowlege of that fyrst cause the more vehemently it desyreth to know that fyrst cause thaâ— is infynyte Therfore it appereth that the soule of man hath euer a naturall appetyte properte to come to the perfyte knowlege syght of the infinyte dyuynely substauÌ„ce fyrst cause and that god hath gyueÌ„ that naturall ê“perte to the soule to come to that perfyte knowlege and syght Then yf that be the naturall properte gyuen of god ergo the soule must onys nedys vse his properte that is to say to haue the parfyte knowlege and syght of y t infynyte dyuynely substauÌ„ce y t is god But syth the soule of man can not vse his properte as to haue that true parfyte knowlege and syght therof here in this darke lyfe but darkly as vnder a cloude or a myste therfore it is necessary that the soule of man haue a beynge in the whyche he may haue the trewe and parfyte syghte and knowlege of that dyuynely substaunce and fyrst cause whyche is god But that parfyte syght and know lege can the soule neuer haue whyle it is beynge ioyned wyth the grosse body ergo yt foloweth it must haue a knowlege and syght without the grosse body and so yt must nedys haue a beynge wythout that grosse bo dy and so it foloweth that after the corrupcioÌ„ of that grosse body it hath a beynge and is incorruptyble and immortall ¶ That the soule of man hath none other cause of his beynge but god whyche is infynyte Caput xii Gyngemyn ¶ A nother reason yet is this Euery thyng that is made of nought and immedyatly create of god is infinite and shall neuer haue ende for the heuen yerth hell and the hole ingynne of the worlde were immedyatly made of god and haue no nother cause of theyr beyng but only god whych is infynyte And because that cause is infymte theyr beyngâ— be naturally infynyte but that thynge that hath a nother meane cause of hys beynge than god is cortuptyble as the body of man beste or a house and suche other whyche haue a nother meane cause of theyre growyng and beyng whych is the moysture of the yerth the hete of the sonne and forme the fassyon Also the. v. wyttys as the syght the smellynge the tastynge herynge and touchynge haue a nother meane cause of theyr beynge whyche is the eye for the syght and the nose for the smellynge the tonge and mouth for tastyng the eres for herynge the handes and other meÌ„bers of the body for touchyng whych v. wyttys haue theyr cause beynge of those members then yf the vnderstandynge the whych is the soule of man haue none other meane cause of his beyng but god y t is infynyte â— is immedyatly create of god the soule conuenyently must be infynyte But that the soule hath no nother incane cause of beyng but god and that it is a thynge whyche is immedyately create of god thus it may be wel proued The soule must nedys be made of somwhat or â—lle of nought â—t there can be nothynge named of the whych it is made for yf it be made of any other meane thyng or thynges then must it be made of partes of yt selfe whych so gadered togeder maketh the hole soule or 〈◊〉 it is made of some mater wyth som forme and fassyon added therto but it is not made of
his partes gederyd for the soule hath no partes nor can not be deyuded Nor it is not made of no nother mater for euery thynge that is made of any mater and be resoluyd vnto the same mater wherof it was fyrst made when the forme or fassyon is brokeÌ„ and destroyed as an ymage a house a cup of tymber or metall and such other whych may be resoluyd vnto the same mater as vnto y â— same tymber or metall when the fassyoÌ„ and forme therof is broken and destroyed and therfore syth the soule of man can not be resoluyd to no such mater wherof it is made because it is but only a symple substaunce of it selfe er go it is made of no mater then yf yt be nother made of partes of it selfe nother of no mater yt hath no meane cause of his creacyon and beynge then must it nedâ—s be iâ—edyatly made of god ergo god is only y â— cause of his creacyon beynge where it hath no nother cause of his beynge but that that it is infynyte y â— immedyatly effecte must nedys be infynyte So consequently yt foloweth that the soule of man must nedys be infynyte incorruptyble and immortall ¶ That the materyall substauÌ„ce of no thynge in the worlde can be corruptyd no more can mannys soule Caput xiii THere is nothynge in the world that is made of any mater forme that clerely corruptyth and cometh to nought for though y â— forme and taâ—yon be corrupt and gone yet the mater euer remayneth for euery corporall thynge in the worlde is coÌ„pound of y â— iiii elemeÌ„tes euer it is resoluyd agayn vnto y â— iiii elementes of the which it is coÌ„pound that is to saye eyther in to the fyre ayre water or yerth So that those iiii ele mentes nor no parte of theÌ„ can neuer be corruptyd because they were inmedyatly made and create of god for there is as mych fyre eyre water yerth at this daye as euer was any tyme before this and neyther more nor lesse And euery thynge that is coÌ„pounde and made of these iiii elementes thoughe the forme and fassyon maye be corrupte yet the matter euer remayneth For take any corporall thynge that is in the worlde be a stok a stone a plante or tre or the body of any best and breke it or bren it and do what ye can to destroy it yet ye shall neuer destroy the matter therof to cause it vtterly to come to nought For the yerth whych is in it wyll turne to yerth or asshes y â— water moysture therin wyll go to the ele ment of the water so that it wyll downe to the holow places of the yerth and so at the last in to the see or ellys it wyll be vapoured vp by the hete of the sonne or sterrys and so at the laste turne to reyne The eyre and wynde whych is therin wyll to the eyre whyche is in his proper element The fyre therin wyll ascende to the proper place and spere of the element of the fyre So that euery one of the elementes wyll go to his owne place and proper spere so that the materyall substauÌ„ce of euery corporal thyng doth neuer perysh and come to nought but doth euer remayne TheÌ„ syth that god suffered no corporall thynge naturally to corrupte and to come to nought it is lykely that he wyll not suffer the soule of man whyche is so noble a thyng and immedyatly made and create of god as I haue pro ued to the before and also made to his symylytude and lykenes vtterly to corrupt and come to nought So it must folowe that the soule of man must be immortall and can neuer perysh and come to nought but must euer contynew in his beynge ¶ That mannes soule that is the moste perfyte and moste noble thynge that euer god dyd ordeyne create must haue most longe tyme to coÌ„tynew remayne in his beyng Cap. xiiii Gyngemyn ¶ Another reason is this Euery thyng the more perfyte and the more noble that it is the longer it is able to coÌ„tynew in his beyng But the soule of man is the most perfyte creature and most noble câ—ature that euer god dyd ordeyne or create because it is made to the sy mylytude and lykenes of god as I haue proued to the in our fyrst dyaloge and dysputacion Therfore it is most able to coÌ„tynew in his beyng but we se dyuers creatures of god which be perfyte thynges and able to contynew by nature and to haue beyng infynyte as the elementes that is to say the fyre the eyre the water the erth as I prouyd to the here before also the bodyes aboue as the sonne mone sterrys by theyr proper tees haue a beyng y t naturally they shall neuer be vtterly corrupte nor pe rysshed because there is no cause of theyr corrupcyon ergo the soule of man whych is the most perfyte most noble thynge that euer god made and ordeyned muste haue such a beynge that shall be able to contynewe and to haue a beynge infynyte Therfore it must folowe that the soule of man is immortall and shall euer coÌ„tynue and remayne in his beynge ¶ That the soule of man hath his full perfeccyon as sone as it is annexed to the body and that it increasyth not successyuely Caput xv COmyngo ¶ Thy reasons so depely enter in to my hert y t I can not auoyde it but I muste nedys graunt the soule of man to be unmortall to haue a beynge after the corrupcyon of the body But yet one thynge moueth me greatly whether y â— soule of man haue his beynge full perfeccyon as sone as it is annexed to the body or yf it increase his perfeccyoÌ„ successyuely ¶ Gyn. ¶ As to that it must nedys be af fâ—med y â— the soule hath his full perfeccyon and beynge as sone as euer it is annexed to y â— body ¶ Comyn ¶ That semeth to me a straunge thyng for this I suppose must be grauÌ„ted y t the soule intellectyf is nothyng elle but theâ— vnderstandynge whyche beynge in the body of man is annexed to the sensytyue lyfe but we well perceyue that y â— bodye of a chylde in the woÌ„be of the mother hath quycknes of lyfe yet lacketh vnderstandynge longe tyme bothe before the byrth and after longe tyme after y â— byrth so coÌ„tynueth nor hath no more ê“â—yuvng nor vnderstandyng then a brute beste but after by processe of tyme by techynge and instruccyon y â— vnderstanding increasyth wherfore it seâ—eth to me that his soule hath not his perfyte beyng and perfeccion at the begâ—nnyng but rather groweth and â—syth as the body doth ¶ Gyn. ¶ That doute that thou mouest may well be assoâ—d but because thou shall better perceyue my solucyon I shall put the this symilitude lyke wyse as a harper vseth his harpe which is his instrument to make melodye so dothe the reasonable soule vse the body for his
instrumente and lyke wyse as the harper can not make nor she we no melodye wyth his harpe excepte yt be strynged and in tewne no more can the reasonable soule vse nor haue his operacyon in the body nor shewe no reason wyth the body whiche is y â— instrument because yt is not perfytyde nor tewnyd And lyke wyse as the harper hath his coÌ„nyng and properte of harpynge all though he lack his harpe and though his in strument his harpe be not parfytyd and tewnyd and though he can not shewe his connyng and properte wyth his instrument that is vnperfyte so lyke wyse the soule in the body of the yonge chylde hath his properte of vnderstandynge though yt can not be shewed wyth that vnparfyte body whyche is his instrument ¶ The dyfferens betwene the memory and phantasye of a brute beste and the soule of man and that all 〈◊〉 is in mannys soule at the begynnynge Caput xvi COmyngo ¶ yet there is one thynge wherin I am not fully satysfyed yf so be the soule of man haue his perfeccioÌ„ of vnderstandyng in the begynnyng beynge in the body of such an infante then when that the infant cometh to parfyte age of dyscrecyon y t reasonable soule beyng in hym shuld haue remembrauÌ„ce memory of suche thynges that he dâ—d in his infancy and chyldhode but of that we se the coÌ„trary by experyence therfore it shuld seme that the soule hath no parfyte perfeccyon of vnderstandynge in the begynnynge ¶ Gynge ¶ As touchynge that questyon thou must fyrst consyder that the memory and phantasye is not euer the same thynge that the reasonable vnderstandynge is For memory is the power of the soule by the whyche one doth remember thynges paste and done and the phantasye is the operacyon of the knowlege whiche is had by reason of the. v. sensys or wyttes and the brute bestes haue this phantasye and memory which is presentyd to them by the. v. wyttes yet haue they no reasonable vnderstaÌ„ding ¶ Co. ¶ Al y t I graunt ¶ Gyn. ¶ ThaÌ„ thus I wote well thou wylt graunt y t a man beyng of the age of xxx yeres hathe than his perfyte reasonable soule and yet that man may be so ouercome by sykenes or by dronknes that he shall lose his memorye neyther can not vse his vnderstandynge reasonable as he can do whan hys body is in teÌ„per And yet thou wylt grauÌ„t that as long as his sensytyue lyfe abydeth in the body his reasonable soule is not departyd away and when that man cometh agayne to helth or to sobernes he can not remember of that y t he dyd in his seknes or dronkenes Therfore all though that his perfyte remembraunce and memory was gone for a season yet the resonable soule was not then departed and gone and the cause is that the soule that tâ—me had not a body dysposed and his perfyte instrumente in the whyche he myght shewe his properte and vse his opâ—racyon of vnderstandyng for in such dronknes a man vseth but the operacyoÌ„ of his phantasye and not his vnderstandynge that is the properte of his soule therfore it standeth not agayns reason that the soule of man hath his perfytnes and knowlege of scyens and connynge as well in the begynnyng as afterwarde ¶ Comyn ¶ That conclusyon me thynketh not good y t the soule of man hath as perfyte scyens and knowlege of all thynge in the be gynnyng as aâ—ter for this we se by experyeÌ„ce that many a man incresyth his vnderstandyng by redyng studyeng and techynge of other ¶ Gyn. ¶ But yet take hede to this poynte that y t thou supposyst that y â— soule incresyth in vnderstandynge and lerneth scyens and connynge by redyng and techynge is no thynge â—llys but the repetycyon and remembraunce of such scyens and connynge that the soule had before whiche the memory hadde forgotten and coude not reherse for this I wote that thou and euery other reasonable man can imagyne and make many great reasons and fyndeth many subtyll inuencyoÌ„s of reasons whych were to them neuer taught and whyche they neuer lerned by redyng nor instruccyon of other men but of theyr owne myndes imagynacyons therfore because men haue other vnderstandynge scyens knowlege that they haue not by lernynge and techynge of other men Therfore now it must nedes folow that y t scyence and knowlege was in the soule of man longe tyme before But yet it is not so of a brute beste that hath but a memory and phaÌ„ tasye for the beste can remember nothynge nor knoweth nothynge but that that is presentyd and shewed to hym by reasons of y â— v. wyttes nor no nother thyng can know but sensyble thynge and corporal but y â— soule of man contrary wyse remembreth and knoweth as well thynges insensyble and incorporall as corporall as I haue proued to the lately here before Therfore betwene the vnderstandynge of man and the memorye phantasy of a brute beste is a great dyfference be of a contrary nature ¶ That the phantasye and memorye of a brute beste is corruptyble and mortall and the soule of man unmortall Caput xvii COmyngo ¶ All that now I perceyue but al though that there be some dyfference betwene the memory phantasye of a brute beste and the vnderstandynge and soule of man yet because the memory and phantasye of a brute beste is a thynge insensyble and incorporall as well as the soule of man is therfore it semeth it shuld be incorruptible as well as y â— other ¶ Gyn. ¶ yf y â— memory or phantasy of a brute beste be a thyng insensyble incorporall that proueth it not to be incorruptyble for the syght and heryng of a brute beste be incorporall thynges yet they be not incorruptybie the cause is for those incorporall thynge depende and ha ue theyr beynge vpon thynges corporall For yf the eye which is the cause of the syght and the organ of the syght be perysshed corrupte the syght is perysshed and corrupte and yet is the syght a thynge incorporall And so of all the other v. wyttes of the instrumentes organs of them So lyke wyse though the phantasye of a brute beste be incorporall yet it depeÌ„ deth and belongeth to the. v. wyttes and to the organs and instrumentes of the. v. wyttes whyche be thynges corruptyble and corporall also the phantasy of a brute beste neuer worketh but in and vpoÌ„ such thynge as be sensyble and corporal and which may be perceyued by the. v. wytte nor no nother thynges can pceyue nor know nor the phantasy of a brute best is neuer moued nor styred but by suche sensyble thynges and corpo rall thynges whych be corruptyble mortall wherfore syth it dependeth and belongeth and hath his beynge and operacyon vppon such corrupty ble and mortall causes it foloweth well that it must nedes be corruptible and mortall Also the memory or phantasy of a brute beste iudgeth euery thynge y
t it seeeh hereth or perceyueth by any of the. v. sensys all for y â— body and for the fedyng pleasure or ease of the body and to the satisfaccioÌ„ of the bodely desyre or appetyte And the brute beste neuer moueth nor styreth nor laboureth voluntarely but onely for the vse of the bodye as for hys fedynge and conseruacyon of the bodye Also the brute beste hath no naturall inclynacyoÌ„ nor desyre to any thynge but that that is for the conseruacyon of his body Therfore syth the brute beste iudged all for the bodye naturally coueteth nor desyreth nothynge but for the body yt foloweth well that the pryncypall perfeccyon exystens of the brute beste is only the bodely lyfe whyche bodely lyfe is mortall and corruptyble so the wyttes or senses and the organs of theÌ„ the phantasye and memory whych is causyd by theÌ„ and so belongeth to the brute beste must nedâ—s be corruptyble and mortall nor it can not be proued that any brute beste na turally and voluntarely dothe nor hath intended the destruccyon of hys owne body but coÌ„trary many a man hath wyllyngly desyred the destruccyon of his owne body voluntarely suffred deth so naturally iudgeth loueth coueteth and desyreth the conseruacyon of an other thynge than the bodely lyfe so it appereth to be in maÌ„ a nother lyfe without the body and his pryncypall perfeccyon not to be the bodely lyfe for he iudgeth knoweth insensyble thynges and thynges that be incorruptyble and infynyte otherwyse than the phanthasye and memore of a brute beste iudgeth or knoweth ¶ That the soule of man vseth not alway his operacyon and properte Caput xviii COmyngo ¶ yet me thynketh by reason the soule of man whych is the vnderstandyng shuld be corruptible bycause it semeth though it depende not vpon the hole body yet it dependeth vpon che brayne of y â— hedâ— whiche is the pryncypall parte of the body for when a man is hurte in the brayne anone his reason and vnderstandynge begynneth to faynt and go away than anone that man leseth his vnderstandynge therfore it semeth that fall the brayne be clerely perysshed and corrupte that all y â— vnderstaÌ„dyng which is y â— soule is clerely perysshed corrupte ¶ Gyn. ¶ That is playnly vntrue and must nedes be denyed that the vnderstan dynge dependeth vpon the brayne for though the brayne be hurte yet is not the vnderstandynge perysshed but for that season the soule is occupyed about the curâ—nge and helyng of that member for as longe as the soule is ioyned wyth the body it is necessary that it haue some occupacyoÌ„ wyth the body and when any member of the body is is vehemently and hougly styred moued or sore smerteth or aketh for hurt or payne or ache anone the soule because it is ioyned with y â— body it helpeth to coÌ„serue the body it is tornyd froÌ„ the coÌ„templacioÌ„ of dyuynely thynges and is occu pyed in suche lowe thynges longyng to the body putteth his strengthe all in consyderynge the vehement payne so that when the brayne is hurt so that y â— humours and vapours styre and moue the specys and kyndes of the phantasye than all the strength of the vnderstandynge of the soule intendeth to the phantasye and to the curynge of those members for the whyle renneth and is occupyed with the phantasye and so at suche tyme the soule leseth not his perfeccyon but because his body with which it is ioyned is not perfyte in his members therfore than it vseth not his operacyons in contemplacyon of dyuynely thynges but vseth other ope racyoÌ„s longynge to y â— body to the phantasy As a harper whan his har pe is out of tune must be occupyed about y e wrastynge of his harpe strynges and so set them in tune before he shalbe able to shewe any melody or armony wyth his harpe and so durynge the tyme that he is tunynge hys harpe he can shewe no melodye nor armonye And so the soule of man whyle it is occupyed in curynge tunyng his body can not shew his ope racyon and properte of his clere vnderstandynge Therfore it appereth that the vnderstandyng dependeth not vppon the brayne for than euery brute beste whych hath the hede and the brayne hole and parfyte and not hurte nor troublyd wyth superfluous humours shulde haue vnderstandynge whych is clerely false ¶ That euery mannes soule is of lyke perfeccyon Laput. xix COmyn ¶ ThaÌ„ syth thou affyrmest y t y e soule neuer lesyth his noblenes nor 〈◊〉 I wold agayne know whether euery maÌ„nes soule be lyke perfyte ¶ Gyn. ¶ I suppose ye ¶ Comyn ¶ Me thynketh therof y â— coÌ„trary for we se â—uydeÌ„tly that euery man hath not lyke vnderstandyng nor wytte For many a man can perceyue and lerne that reason scyens that a nother can not thoughe it be neuer so playnly and well declared ¶ Gyn. ¶ As I sayd to the before the cause therof is nought elles but the vndysposycyon of his body because of the humours in his hede or in hys body whyche perturbeth it for whan the hede and the body is full of humours by excessyue etyng or drynkyng thaÌ„ y t maÌ„ vseth not his vnderstaÌ„ dyng so perfyte as he doth when the body is clere of such superfluous hu mours for when a man is fastyng thaÌ„ he vseth his vnderstandyng more perfyte than whan his body is so replete with superfluous humours and the mete or y â— drynke vndygested Therfore because some men be of such complexyon and be neuer wythout such humours theyr heedes neuer clene but full of superfluous humours therfore they neuer vse theyr vnderstandyng so parfyte clere as other men that be of purer coÌ„plexyon and theyr heedes lesse trobled wyth such superfluous humours And also thou seest this ofte by experieÌ„ce that many a man is apte to lerne and to vnderstande some scyens and to perceyue the reasons therof quyckly perfytly and to lerne a nother scyens or connynge he is nothynge apte but very dull as somtyme yf two men of lyke age be the one shalbe apte to lerne or to vnderstande the scyens of musyke and synging of dyscant but to lerne the scyens of logyke or phylosophy he shall be but dull and the other man shall be apte to lerne and also to vnderstande the scyens of logyke and phylosophye but to lerne the scyens of musyke as dyscante or syngynge he shall be but dull And some that be apte to lerne bothe logyke phylosopâ— and musyke as dyscant and syngynge shall neuer yet well perceyue the methematycall scyens as geometrye arithmetryk or as tronomye so yt apperyth that it is the dysposycyon and complexyon of his bodye that causeth y â— aptenes therof Therfore though euery man be not lyke in dysposycioÌ„ of the body yet euery maÌ„nes soule is lyke perfyte ¶ what knowlege maÌ„nys soule hath after it is separate from the body aud what maner of beynge yt hath Laput.
xx COmyngo ¶ Than yet I pray the let me know thy mynde in one questyon what maner of knowlege maÌ„nes soule hathe after it is separate froÌ„ y â— body what maner of beyng it hath ¶ Gyn. ¶ As touchyng that the soule of man beyng in the body as I haue shewed to the before doth vnderstande and knoweth it selfe and it knoweth well y t it hath that knowlege hath a beyng in the body whych body it vseth as his instrument and beynge in this materyall body and by reason of materyall thynges it knoweth thynges whyche be unmateryall as thynges that be racyonal incorporall as vnyuersal thynges kyndes of thinge It knoweth alâ—o vyce and vertue good and bad ryght and wronge al other thynges racyonall whyche be no corporall thynges nor be not perceyued nor knowen by none of the. v. sences nor by no instrument nor or gane of the sences whych incorporall thynges be called racyonall thyngâ— as god auÌ„gell maÌ„nes soule vyce vertue and all such other because they be knowen and perceyued only by reason for though a corporall thynge whyche is good or bad may be seen or felt or by any organe of the sences perceyued knowen that it is such a corporall thyng yet the goodnes or the badnes therof is knowen but by the reason for a brute beste maye by his eye or other member see or fele a man that is to say to see or fele the body of a maÌ„ but yet that brute beste can not by none of his sences know whether it be a good man or an euyll man or whether he be vycyous or vertuous nor know the qualytees nor y â— condycyoÌ„s of the man but these propertees and qualitees be knowen only by reason and the reason only doth iudge them whether they be good or bad ¶ Also the soule of man beynge in his naturall body doth knowe bothe thynges materyall and unmateryall but yet the lesse that the body is mo ued styred and the more quyet that the body is the more perfyte know lege that soule hath for a man shall better studye and brynge to pas any hard and subtyll conclusyon when the body is quyete and at reste than when it is moued and styred or hath any dysease and vnquyetnes A maÌ„ also when he is fastyng hath more fresshe and quyck wytte to studye or to lerne any scyens arte or other conclusyon then he hath when his body is replete with mete or drynke or wyth superfluous humours Also the reasonable soule of man doth knowe and dyscusse what is vertue and what is vyce and doth reproue dyspyseth that thyng which the sensuall appe tyte dothe approue desyre and folowe The honest men vertuous men and holy men do dyspyse the sensuall appetytes and pleasures of the body and of the world and somtyme wyllingly put them self to deth where no brute beste wyll neuer couet nor desyre his owne destruccyon and the cause therof is for that y t the soule doth knowe that it is ordeyned for to haue an other heynge thaÌ„ y â— beynge which it hath when it is ioyned with the body And this knowlege that the soule hath when it is ioyned wyth the body it doth neuer lose but yt hath it also wheÌ„ it is separate from the body for it is oft tyme seen also y t many a man beynge dede to all meÌ„nes knowlege and perceyuing for y â— space of x. or xii houres and some for the space of a day and more hath after that reuyued agayne whych durynge that whyle as the comen terme is hathe leyne in a traunce and after he hath ben then so reuyued hath told many woÌ„derfull thynges that he hath seen beyng so in a trauÌ„ce as dede whych is an euydent proue that manne soule hath an other beyng wythout the body and hath knowlege and vn derstandyng after that it is separate from the body Than syth the soule of man vseth his properte of vnderstanding mych better and more ê‘fytly without y â— body as I haue proued to the when the body is lest moued styred and when it is most quyet when the soule doth medell lest wyth the body it foloweth therfore consequently that it hathe most knowlege when it is clerely separate from y â— body And forther syth that the soule of man beyng ioyned with the body doth knowe that there is a god that go uerneth all and hath some knowlege what is good and what is bad and also hathe some knowlege what is ryght and what is wrong and that the perfyte perfeccyon as I haue proued to the is when it is separate from y â— body than after such separacyon that soule must haue a more knowlege of god and a more knowlege what is good and what is bad and a more knowlege what is ryght what is wronge and a more knowlege in eue ry other cause and thyng than it had when it was ioyned wyth this corruptyble body ¶ Comyn ¶ That coÌ„clusion foloweth ryght well but yet I pray the syth the soule of man hath suche knowlege as thou sayest yet than I wold knowe what maner of beynge the soule hath after it is sepa rate frome the body and where doth that soule remayne or become ¶ Gynge ¶ As touchynge the beyng of the soule as I haue shewed the the soule is but a spyrituall substaunce and hath his beynge in no naturall place ¶ Comyn ¶ why what callest thou a naturall place ¶ Gynge ¶ I call a naturall place as y e phylosophers haue defyned yt that is thus A place is the vtter and extreme terme or parte holowe superfycyes of a body coÌ„teynyng a nother body within it ¶ Comyn ¶ why what callest thou a superâ—ves ¶ Gyn. ¶ A superfycyes is that which hath but leÌ„gth and brede no maner of thyckenes for yf it haue length brede thycknes than it is a body so that euery thynge that I see whych is the obiecte of my syght and whervppon my syght doth rest not consyderyng the thyck nes is called a superfycyes so that the vtter parte of euery bodely thyng that I do see is called the superfycyes because I do see the length brede therof and not the thycknes therof thaÌ„ as I sayde before as touchyng y â— dyffinycyon of a naturall place it is but the vtter and extreme terme or part y â— holow superfycyes of a body conteynyng a nother body whyche is wythin it as by example a tonne is called by the comen peple the place of the wyne because yt conteyneth the wyne within it and so that holow superfycies of the tonne is the very naturall place of the wyne And than forther to thy questyon I saye that the soule hath his beynge in no natu rall place because it is but a spyrytuall substaunce and no corporall substaunce nor body And suche a naturall place doth-conteyne within it alwaye a corporall substaunce and a bodely thynge and therfore the soule
can neuer be coÌ„teyned nor rest in no natural place for though that euery thyng which is in any such natural place hath a beyng yet euery thyng y â— hath beynge is not in a naturall place therfore the soule of man hath hâ—s beynge in no naturall place but is there where it dothe please god to lymyte it to be whych no mannes wyt nor capacyte lyuynge in yerth is able to coÌ„prehende But by the iustyce of god as I shewed the before yf it haue deserued in this worlde to haue a ioyfull beynge yt shall haue a ioyfull beynge perpetuall and yf it haue deseruyd to haue a myserable a sorowfull beyng it shall haue a miserable a sorowfull beyng ê‘petuall so that the soule of man is euer a thynge perpetuall and hath an infinyte beyng ¶ Comyn ¶ Now thy solucyons be so mâ—lous and also so rea sonable that they please me well and thou hast fully satysfyed my mynde in all my questyons and demaundes that I must nedys consente agre by very reason that the soule of man is immortall shall neuer dye how be it I meruell myche where thou hast lerned and had all thys connynge knowlege of all these thynges whych thou hast declared vnto me for I here say that in thy contrey there is but a lytell lernynge or study of phylosophy And I here say that the comen people there shall not be suffered to study any maner of subtyll sâ—s or arte nor that ye haue no maner of places ordeyned by your heddys gouernours where the people shall re sorte to gyder for the lernynge therof nor no wayes vsed that chyldren yonge men dysposed to lernynge shall haue any exhibycyon or fyndyng or helpe or fortherans therto as we se in Chrystendome to haue dyuers places of studyes vnyuersytees where such as be dysposed to lerne may resort haue good exhybicion helpe to the same ¶ Gyn. ¶ As touchyng that mater I assure the the lernyng that I haue gotten hath not ben all in myne owne countrey for in my youth I had good parentes frendes that for the loue they bare to me and because they wolde I shuld vse the fete of marchaundyse amonge chrystenmen because that great lucre cometh therby dyd putte me forth to the intente I shuld lerne some other straunge languages by whose helpe and meanes I was in dyuers cyties and vnyuersytees in crystendome longe tyme abydyng and suggernyng where I lerned parte of my phylosophye and of other scyens ¶ Comyn ¶ Than I meruell mych the lesse and I thanke the with all my herte for this that I haue now lerned of the wherin as I sayd thou hast merueylously pleased me and satysfyed my mynde ¶ Gyn. ¶ I am very glad yf I haue done to the any pleasure Therfore syth y t thy mynde is somwhat satysfyed I purpose now to departe from the for a season somwhat to be occupyed about myne owne be synes ¶ Comyngo ¶ Nay I pray the tary yet a lytell whyle for my mynde is not yet fully sa tysfyed in other thynges ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ I am coÌ„tent yet for thy pleasure to tarye wyth the styll for a sea son therfore I praye the nowe shewe me forther thy mynde saye on what thou wylt ¶ Thus endeth the seconde dyaloge of the immortalyte of mannes soule ¶ The thyrde dialoge ¶ That the soule doth suffer and noth the body and that by the iustyce of god there muste be a purgatory because that somtyme man dyeth wythout makynge full satysfaccyon Cap. i. COmyngo ¶ As touchynge the meuelous existens of god and the immortalyte of mannes soule thou hast made to me so many merueylous reasons y â— I muste nedys affyrme bothe thy pryncyples that is to saye that there is one god which gouerneth all conserueth all and regardeth all and also that the soule of man is immortall and shall neuer dye but that yt shall re ceyue ioy or sorow in a nother world after y t it is sepa rate from this corruptyble body But yet me thynketh thou hast made a great dygressyon from the mater that we fyrst began whych was y t there is a purgatorye where the soule of man after this mortall lyfe shalbe pu nysshed for suche offences done here in yerth wherfore he made not here full satysfaccion and so to be puryfyed before that yt come to the place of ioy ¶ Gynge ¶ Nay I haue made not dygressyon from the mater but I haue made a preparacyon to the mater for the reasons whyche I haue shewed to the here before and the conclusyons that I haue proued touchyng the meruelous exystens of god y t immortalyte of mannes soule be but the antecedens of the argumentes whyche I purpose to make in prouyng that there is a purgatory ¶ Comyngo ¶ Than I praye the go breuely to the mater and let vs spende no tyme in vayne but yet fyrst I pray the tell me one thynge whether is it the soule of man alone that suf fereth the payne and sorowe or whether is it the body of man alone that suffereth payne and sorowe or bothe to geder ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ It is the soule that sussereth alway payne sorowe and not the bodye for there is nothyng that can suffer payne or pleasure but that thyng whiche at y â— lest hath sensytyue soule and lyfe for a stone a tre nor other thynge whyche haue no sensytyue lyfe can suffer nother payne nor pleasure but yet some tyme that soule doth suffer payne beyngewyth the body as when the body is perturbed and let from the naturall cours of his conseruacyon as when y â— body is to mych hote or to mych cold or to mych drye or to mych moyst or hath other impedyment which lâ—teth the naturall cours of his conseruacyon than that soule suffereth payne beynge wyth the bodye ¶ Comyn ¶ That standeth as me semeth wyth good reason therfore I pray the procede to the mater ¶ Gynge ¶ wyth ryght good wyll therfore I pray the now take hede Thou remeÌ„brest well that I haue prouyd vnto the in our second dyaloge and dysputacyon that god is of hym self ryghteous and iust and executyth euermore good and indyffereÌ„t iustyce to cuery one of his creatures and doth rewarde and punysh euery creature accordynge to his desert And that man is the only creature whom he hath created here lyuynge vpon yerth to do hym honour and seruyce and that no nother creature here in erth doth seruyce and honour to god but only man as I haue prouyd vnto the here before in our seconde dya loge and dysputacyon And because that many a man here in yerth doth not honour nor serue god as he ought to do but is neglygent therin and brâ—keth the commaundementes of god is dysobe dyent vnto god and is not therfore suffycâ—eÌ„tly punysshed in this worlde but dyeth before such punyshment or satisfaccion here vpon yerth by hym made it must nedes
lawâ— and derogacyon of hys iustyce and also agayns the prerogatyfe yf hys mercyfull power and authoryte Therfore it must nedys be agreed by all reason that there must be a purgatorye where the soule of man muste be puryfyed and purged for a season to make full satysfaccyon for suche offences and synnes for the whyche the man made not suf fycyent fatysfaccyon here in yerth and toke not suffycyent repentaunce therfore ¶ An obieccyon that because there be degrees in heuen and hell of ioye and payne that it is nedeles for god to putte any purgatory for he maye execute hys full and indysferent iusâ—yce in one of those two places Laput. vi COmyngo ¶ Thou hast made to me a meruelous reasoÌ„ herein but yet me thynketh though that god by the meruelous order of his câ—e acion hath create euery thyng in order and degrees as some great and some greater so of offence and syn some is great some is greater and of punyshment therfore some to be great and some greater of merytoryous dedes some greate some greater and of repentaunce some great and some greater and of forgyuenes and pardon some great and some greater yet that proueth not that by the dyscrete wysedome and iustyce of god that there must nedys be a purgatory for god may by the order of good iustyce punysh euery offence done by man in order and ac cordynge to hys degrees and rewarde euery merytoryous acte in order and degree as they ought to be some more and some lesse though there be no purgatorye but onely heuen and hell for lyke wyse as thou saydest â—rewhyle as there is orders and degrees of euery thynge here in yerthe so I suppose and doute not but there is degrees bothe in heuen and hell as some soule in heuen shall haue a great ioy and some shall haue a grea ter ioy and yet bothe these ioyes to be infynyte and also in hell some sou le there to haue a great punyshment and some a greater and yet bothe these punyshmentes to be infynyte So that god by his iustyce maye punysh euery soule in hell and rewarde euery soule in heuen in conuenyent order and degree accordynge to theyr desertes and yet all those punyshmentes and rewardes to be infynyte and so euery thynge in hys order and degre Therfore it shulde seme nedeles for god than to put or to ordeyne any purgatory ¶ The solucyon that as the appell whych hath a vegetatyue soule and as the beest whyche hathe a sensytyue soule maye be purged after that they be seuerâ—d from theyre naturall growyng and lyfe of such tokens and spottes whych be a deformyte to them so the soule intellcctyue muste be purged of those tokens and spottes of synne whyche was a deformyte to yt Laput. vii Gyngemyn ¶ That is a very sore obieccyon that thou hast now put and aledged But yet not wythstandynge yf thou wylte pacyently here me I dout not but I shall gyue the a good suffycyent solucyoÌ„ therto and to satilfye thy mynde therin Therfore I praye the take good hede to thys that I shall now shewe to the I trust it is not out of thy re membrauÌ„ce that I shewed the but late that there be iii. kyndys of soules One is a soule vegetatiue whiche is in euery plante tree grasse herbe and frute Another is a soule sensytiue whyche is in euery brute sen suall best as well horse shepe and such other as go crepe vpon the yerth as in the byrdes that fle in the eyre and fyshe whyche swym in the water whych vse and occupy theyre v. sences that is to sey tastyng smellyng heryng seyng touchyng And the thyrde soule is y e soule intellectiue whych is iÌ„ man which is nothig elles but y e lyuely vnderstaÌ„dyng wherby man knowith the good from the euell dyscussynge the thyng by argumentes and reasons for the one parte for the other tyll at the laste he therby fyndith out the truthe and so therby knowith which is good and which is euyll ¶ Comyn ¶ All that I am content to grauÌ„te ¶ Gyng ¶ Syth thys thyng is now well by the perceyued now will I procede to the solucyon of thyne obieccyon But fyrste I wyll shewe the an example of thyngys hauynge soule vegetatiue as an apple whyche hath but soule vegetatiue yf such an apple growyng on the tree be hurt with som great stroke therby in some parte somwhat rotten peryshed if that apple immedyatly after be pulled frome the tree now that apple can neuer len ger growe and then yf thou woldeste kepe that same apple to the intent to serue the at thy table at some grete dyner feaste that thou woldest af terwarde make to thy frendys louers this appell shall not be able than to do to the no good seruyce because the lenger thou kepeste it it wyll be wors worse and by reason of that stroke it wyll wax more rotten and at the laste wax all to nought and not able to be eten and also if thou lay that appell amonge other apples it wyll infecte all thos appels whyche lye nygh it and make them rotten nought But yet yf such an appell ha uynge such a stroke growynge vpon the tree be suffered styll to growe not pulled of the tree such an apple oftymes wyll naturally preserue and hele it selfe agayne and the radycall naturall humour of that appell wyll increase whyle it is growynge and expulse those humours whyche were corrupte by reason of the sayd stroke and so make that appell a hole and a sownde appell able to be kepte to do thy seruyce after at thy table wheÌ„ thou shalt make thy dyner and feast to thy freÌ„des and louers But yet yf thou take an appell from that tree whych is a sownde appell but yet it is not fully rype because there remayneth i it such a sowre watery humour which maketh yt not pleasaunt to be eten yet yf thou laye that appell in fayre strawe in some howse where the temperate eyer may come to it thaÌ„ that eyer wyll puryfye purge that appell frome that sowre humour and vapour out the tartnes and sowernes of that humour so make it melowe pleasauÌ„t to be eten So lyke wyse now I may say of a man whych hathe soule intellectyue yf he be infecte or corrupted withe the stroke of doynge some great mortall synne and offence agayns god and than the soule immedyatly pulled separate froÌ„ the body by naturall dethe wythout repeÌ„taunce thaÌ„ the soule of that man shall neuer be able to be receyued of god do hym seruice in heueÌ„ because it hath such a mortall wouÌ„d wherby it is infecte putryfyed not worthy to be admytted to accoÌ„pany wyth y e clene pure soules in heueÌ„ And yet y t man whyle his soule was ioy nyd w t y â— corruptyble body myght haue takeÌ„ repeÌ„tauÌ„ce which myght haue restored hym agayne to helthe and to vertue But
and a nother vnpure and vnclene nor y t one soule shulde be fayre pleasauÌ„t and goodly to beholde and a nother to be foule and deformed and vglye nor y t one soule there shuld suffer ioy and a nother to suffer sorow So now it foloweth that when y t a man hath commytted a mortall synne and after taken repentaunce and dyeth by the whych he is heled of that foule infyrmyte but yet the spottys and tokens therof do re mayne for lack of full satysfaccyon god of his iustyce may not condeÌ„pne hys soule to eternall payne in hell for that offence whych is purged put away and the soule therof clerely discharged and made hole and yet god by his iustyce nor by hys dyscrete wysdome goodnes ought not immediatly to receyue that soule in to that clene and most pure place in heuen to accompany wyth those pure auÌ„gelles and sayntes that be there in that place where there can be no thyng but that whych is all puryfyed clene vntyll such tyme that y t soule be clensed and puryfyed of those tokeÌ„s and spottes of synne whych remayne in that soule which tokeÌ„s and spottes is euer a great deformyte to y â— soule as longe as they do therin remayne Therfore by all coÌ„uenyent reason it must nedys folowe that besyde that gloryous and ioyfull place of heuen and also besyde that myserable sorowfull place of hell there muste nedys be a thyrde place of purgacyon where the soule must be puryfyed and made clene of suche spottys and to kens of synne whych remayne in it before that yt shalbe able to be receyued in to that gloryous place in heuen in whyche place there can be nothynge suffered to be but that whyche is all pure and clene wythout any tokens or spottes of synne or vnclennes ¶ An obieccyon that yf there shuld be any place of puâ— gacyon than that place shuld be here in yerth or ellys yf there be any other place where is that place of purgatory Caput x. COmyngo ¶ This is a meruelous sore hye reason that thou haste made but yet me thynketh though that besyde heuen and hell ther shuld be a thyrde place of purgatyon yt shuld seme conuenyeÌ„t that that place shulde be here in yerth and that man whych hath so offended whom god wolde haue to be purged therfore and after that to be receyued and admytted to ioye wyâ—h hym in heuen may be most conuenyent ly purged therof here in yerth and whyle his soule is ioyned with his bo dy because that the soule offendeth beyng with the body therfore it were most conuenient that that soule shuld be purged and punysshed with the body And also because that god hath ordeyned heuen to be a place of infynyte ioye hell to be a place of infynyte payne and yerth to be a place â—yxte somtyme of ioye and somtyme of payne whyche neuer endureth but for a tyme that shall haue an ende Therfore it is most conuenyent y â— the place of purgatorye shulde be here in yerth because it is the place ordeyned for payne whyche shall haue an ende And also that purgatorye punyshment here in yerth shuld be a great good example to all other meÌ„ here lyuynge to put them in fere to do any lyke offence and shulde cause many men the rather to absteyne from the doynge and commyttynge of any such lyke offence and synne ¶ The solucyon that yf god shuld be compelled to make purgatory here in yerth that than god y t is the hye iudge shulde be restrayned from his lyberte and auctoryte more than any other yerthly iudge and also that it is a folysh questyon to aske where purgatory is Caput xi Gynge ¶ That sayenge me semeth is not to be alowed for thy fyrst reason proued not only that there shulde be no purgatory but only here in yerth but that reason proueth as well that there shuld be no ther heuen nor hell but only here in yerth For yf a man haue lyued so vet tuously in yerth wherby he ought to be saued and go to the ioyes of heueÌ„ because he dyd neuer merytoryous acte but only when his soule was ioyned here with the body then he shuld neuer be rewarded therfore but only here in yerth whyle his soule was ioyned wyth the bodye And also euery synue whyche a man coÌ„mytteth is done whyle the soule is ioyned wyth the body ergo than he shulde neuer haue any punyshment therfore but only here in yerth whyle the soule is ioyned wyth the body so that fyrste reason that thou hast made shulde proue that there is nother heuen nor hell prepared for man but here in yerth whych is clere contrary to all the grounde and pryncyples whych thou hast grauÌ„ted to me before And also where thou sayst that of coÌ„uenyence that y â— yf there shulde be any pur gatory the place shuld be no where elles but here in yerth whyle the soule is beynge wyth the body me seâ—eth that therin thou woldest clerely take away the liberte prerogatyue and authorite of god and bynde god to be in more bondage and seruytude than any temporall iudge whyche hath power to gyue sentence here in yerth in any cyuyll or teÌ„porall causys For a iudge here in yerth which by the order of the lawe may gyue sentence iudgement vpon any traytour or felon is not so bounde nor restrayned but that he may iudge hym to be put in execucion in what place that this iudge shall thynke conuenyent and also in what daye and tyme that he wyll Than god myche more by his prerogatyue and authoryte ought to haue lyberte to gyue his iudgemeÌ„t and sentence y t the punyshmeÌ„t whych is condygne for the synne and offence whych a man here in yerth coÌ„mytteth shalbe had in such place where god hym selfe shall thynk moost coÌ„ue nyent other in yerth or in some other place at his pleasure lyberte and in what tyme and season that he shall thynke conuenyent therfore ¶ Comyn ¶ Than I demaunde of the yf purgatory be not here in yerth in what place shuld yt be ¶ Gyng ¶ As to that I say that purgatory is that that is ordeyned to purge meÌ„nes soules when they be separate from the body And a soule whych is no corporall substaunce but a spyrytuall doth occupye no place no more than thy thought or mynde doth whiche occupyeth no place And as touchyng that questyon where and in what place purgatory is me thynketh it is great folyshnes to demaunde that questyon For I may aske the agayne where is heuen whether ouer thy hed as thou standest or elles vnder thy fote or ellys before thy face or elles behynd thy backe or ellys vpon thy ryght hand or vpon thy left hand or elles yf I aske where is the place where the glorious trone of god is or I aske y â— where is the hyest parte of henâ— what thyng is aboue the hyest
place or ê‘te of heueÌ„ or yf I aske y â— of what mater is the heuen made or y â— fyrmament or y â— sonne mone sterres or what doth cause theÌ„ to moue so meruelous swyftly which go moue about y â— yerth more thaÌ„ C. M. myle in euery xxiiii howres or yf I aske y â— what thyng god is to what thyng is god lyke or what thyng the deuyll is or what thyng y â— deuyll is lyke or to what thyng a soule or angell is lyke or yf I shuld aske y â— how many myle it is to y â— fyrmament or how far it is to the hyest parte of heuen As for all those hygh questyons and many other that may be demaunded all the men in the worlde be not able to assoyle them thou mayst se well that this lytell pryk the yerth whych is no more in comparyson to the fyrmament than a lytyll pese is in comparyson to a great town or castell It is ê‘ued by a good true apparant coÌ„clusyons of astronomye y t the sonne and many other of the starres in y â— fyrmaâ—t be euery of them mych bygger than the hole yerth There is no man in the worlde able to ymagyne the greatnesse of the fyrmameÌ„t mych lesse is he able to ymagyn the great nesse of the heuen and of the hole world which conteyneth all thyng with in it for yf maÌ„ shuld be able to ymagyne or gyue a playne solucioÌ„ to these and all other such hyghe questyons than man shulde haue knowlege as god Thou mayst well by thy reason perceyue that god which hath made this lytyll pryk and spotte the yerth wyth so many creatures lyuyng ther in hath not made all the other placys of the world besyde to be destytute and vacant of creatures But yf I shulde aske the what other creatures be there in euery other place of the worlde thou arte not able to gyue me any solucyon therto Therfore thoughe god haue gyuen to man here in yerth some lytyll vnderstandynge reason and knowlege of some causys and thynges yet he hath reserued the knowlege of all suche hygh causys and questyons to hym selfe For though that man beyng in yerth here by his reason maye perceyue and knowe that there is a god that is the cause of all and gouerneth all yet he shall not be able to ymagyne nor knowe what thynge god is nor to what thynge he is lyke and all though man here in yerth by hys reason may perceyue that there is a heueÌ„ where god of his iustyce shall rewarde the good soules wyth eternall ioy yet he shall neuer be able to ymagyne nor to know by hys reason what maner ioy yt is nor what thyng they shall do nor what pastyme they shall haue And also all though that man here in yerth by hys reason is able to perceyue know that god by his iustyce hath ordeyned a purgatory where that maÌ„ nys soule shalbe purged of hys synne after it is separate from the body yet he shalbe neuer able whyle he is here to perceyue nor to knowe where and in what place that purgatory is nor what certayne nor what kynde of payne they shall suffer and haue nor how nor in what maner that sou le is able to suffer that payne but god hath reserued y â— knowlege of these thynges vnto hym selfe therfore thou man what so euer thou arte arte very folysh that desyrest the knowlege of suche thynges whyle thou arte here in yerth for thou nor all the men in yerth be not able to ymagyne a solucyon for these questyons But yet this is vndouted that god hath or deyned a place of ioye and a place of payne where euery mannes soule shall be rewarded accordyng to his desert but where the place is or what ioy or what payne it shalbe or in what maner or how no man in y â— world can tell but only god alone ¶ Comyn ¶ ThaÌ„ I am as far from the solucyon of my questyoÌ„ as I was before ¶ Gyn. ¶ well than because thou art not yet fully satysfyed I shall yet therin peraduenture ease thy mynde a nother way yf thy wyt be able to ê‘ceyue y â— reasons that I shall shewe the but the mater is somwhat hard therfore as y â— latyn meÌ„ say capiat qui ca pere potest let hym perceyue the mater that can ê‘ceyue yt for euery man is not of lyke capacyte ¶ Com. ¶ ThaÌ„ yet I pray the shewe yt me to see whether I can perceyue it or no. ¶ Gynge ¶ with ryght good wyll ther fore I praye the now take good hede thou must vnderstande fyrst that there be two kyndes of thynges which haue beyng y â— one is a reall thyng the other is a racyonall thyng A reall thynge is that whych is perceyued by the organes instrumentes of the. v. wyttys as the thyng whych may be seen hard tasted felt or smelled be called reall thynges But racyonall thynges be those whych be not perceyued by y â— v. wyttys but only be per ceyued by reason and they be thynges incorporal as loue charyte meke nes abstyneÌ„s pryde malyce slouth and suche other Further thou must coÌ„syder that of places there be thre dyuersytees One is a place contynen tyue a nother is a place lymytatyue and the thyrde is a place operatyue A place contynentyue is that wherin reall thynges as bodyes images figures be coÌ„teyned as y â— tonne wherin the wyne is conteyned is y â— place contynentyue of the wyne A place symytatyue is where thynges racyonall and incorporall be lymyted to be as the place lymytatyue for loue is that thynge whych is loued that thynge whych is so loued is y â— place lymytatyue for that loue and there the loue is in hys place lymytatyue whyche place lymytatyue of loue can not be euer certayne but mutable because loue may be at onys in dyuers thynges therfore loue may be in dyuers places lymytatyue at one tyme. A place operatiue is y â— place wher the operacyon of the thynge is as because we see that the meruelous â—e racyon of god is the meruelous swyft mouynge of the heueÌ„ly speres and bodyes aboue which do appere to vs therfore we say that the place wher god is is heuen so that wher so euer the operacyoÌ„ of god appereth there is the place operatyue of god and there god is Therfore as touchynge thy questyon where purgatory is I say to the yt is no place certayne con tynentyue for that y â— a place contyneÌ„tyue is that whych conteyneth with in yt thynges that be corporall But because purgatory is a place by god lymyted and ordeyned for the purgynge of soules whych be thynges racyonall and incorporall therfore purgatory can be no place coÌ„tynentyue but purgatory maye be a place lymytatyue and also a place operatyue For where so euer that god doth lymyt the soule of man after it is separate from the body
I lyue and wolde to god y â— thou were of our holy secte and crysten beleue and so I wyll counsell the and requyre the to be ¶ Gynge ¶ I thanke you for your good counsell but as to that request I wyll not she we the my mynde at thys tyme because I haue now no tyme nor space how be yt I know well y â— Cryst of whom ye crysten men beleue was a very holy maÌ„ a good hath taught you so many good lessons of vertue y t there can be no better whyche I wyll ad uyse y t to obsâ— kepe And a nother time ê‘adueÌ„ture I shal mete with the agayne and shew to the my mynde but now I praye y â— pardone me for I must nedys departe from the therfore yet agayn I say now farewell ¶ Comyn ¶ well then syth thou wylt nedâ— begone I pray god gyue the grace y t thou mayst do well and to become one of our holy sect beleue I pray god be thy gyde Amen ¶ Thus endeth thys lytell treatyse gedered and compyled by IohnÌ„ Rastell And also by the same IohnÌ„ imprynted and fully fynysshed the. x. day of October y â— yere of our lord god M. CCCCC XXX ¶ Cum priuilegio Regali Tabula The chapytres of the fyrst dialoge An introduccyon to the mater Caput primum That god was without begynnyng the fyrst cause of all thyng Ca. ii That god is and shall be wythout ende Caput iii. That god is moost of power and the moost noble thynge that can be Caput iiii That god is the very lyfe and that he hath the most ioyfull and pleasauÌ„t lyfe that can be Caput v. That god hath knowlege and vnderstanding and knoweth euery thing that euer was is or shall be Caput vi That god is the hye good thynge and most parfyte goodnes and the ve ry truthe Caput vii That vertue is euermore in god Caput viii That iustyce must euermore be in god and is euer ryghteous and iuste Caput ix That god is euer mercyfull Caput x. That the iustyce and mercy of god be correspondeÌ„t and that the one can not be wythout the other Caput xi That god doth gouerne all and coÌ„serueth all and doth take hede to all Caput xii That god is euery where alway in euery place of y â— world Cap. xiii That god is but one thynge and not dyuets thynges Caput xiiii That there is but one god Caput xv That god is hole in dyuers places Caput xvi That god is eternall Caput xvii The chapytres of the seconde dialoge That it is coÌ„uenyent and nedesull to proue the immortalyte of mannys soule by reason Caput i. what is a dyffynycyon and what is a descrypcyon Caput ii what is a body what is a soule and what is a man Caput iii. That it is wysdom to byleue that the soule of man is immortall Ca. iiii yf the soule of man shulde not be immortall than were man the vnhappyest of all other creatures and besles Caput v. That the soule of man vseth his operacyon and properte without the bo dy and may so haue a beynge wythout the body Caput vi That god doth wyll the perpetuall lyfe welth and preseruacyon of mannes soule and his wyll must be performed Caput vii yf the soule of man shuld not be immortall than god doth not mynyster to euery man equall iustyce Caput viii That the soule of maÌ„ is made to be parttaker of blysfulnes and ioy that euer shall endure Caput ix That the soule of man knoweth and perceyueth many thynges without the body nor it depeÌ„deth not nor corrupteth not with the body Ca. x. That the natural appetyte of the soule of maÌ„ is to come to the knowledge of the hye cause whych is god Caput xi That the soule of man hath no nother cause of hys beyng but god which is infynyte Caput xii That the materyall substauÌ„ce of no thyng in the world can be corrupted no more can mannys soule Cap. xiii That mannys soule that is the most perfyte and most noble thynge that euer god dyd ordeyne and create must haue most longe tyme to contynew and remayne in his beynge Cap. xiiii That the soule of man hath his full perfeccion as sone as it is annexed to the body and that increasyth not successyuely Caput xv The dyfferens betwene the memorye and phantasye of a brute beste and the soule of a man and that all scyence is in mannes soule at the begynnynge Caput xvi That the fantasye and memorye of a brute beest is corruptyble and mortall and the soule of man immortall Caput xvii ¶ that the soule of man vseth not alway his operacioÌ„ properte Ca. xviii ¶ that euery mannes soule is of lyke perfeccyon Cap. xix ¶ what knowlege mannes soule hath after it is separate from the body what maner of beynge yt hath Caput xx The chapytres of the thyrde dialoge ¶ that the soule doth suffer and not the body and that by y â— iustyce of god there muste be a purgatory because that somtyme man dyeth wythout makynge full satysfaccyon Caput prâ—um An obieâ—yoÌ„ because repentauÌ„ce is y t only thyng clerely y t wassâ—eth put teth away all synne done by man y â— god of hys iustyce must than dyscharge hym therof therfore yt nedeth thaÌ„ no nother purgatory Cap. ii ¶ the solucion yf god shuld be coÌ„pelled to forgyue the synne immedyatly after repentaunce he shulde be restrayned of his lyberte and from the execucyon of hys iustyce Caput iii. An obieccyon because man is ordeyned to haue an infynyte beyng ther fore after hys deth he muste haue infynyte ioye or infynyte payne so no payne in purgatory whych hath an ende Caput iiii ¶ the solucion as there be degrees in syn as some synne is more and som lesse so there be degrees in repentaunce as some may be more some lesse and also degrees of pardoÌ„ and forgyuenes therfore man for lack of suffycyent repentaunce must be purged Caput v. An obieccion that because there be degrees in heueÌ„ hell of ioy payne that it is nedeles for god to putte any purgatorye for he maye execute his full and indyfferent iustyce in one of those two placys Ca. vi The solucyon that as the appell whych hath a vegetatyue soule and as the beste whiche hath a sensytyue soule may be purged after that they be seueryd froÌ„ theyr naturall growynge lyfe of such tokens spotte which be a deformyte to theÌ„ so the soule intellectyfe must be purged of those tokens spottâ— of synne whych was a dâ—formyte to it Ca. vii An obieccion that the soule vnpurged may do som meane low seruyce to god in heuen though it be not the hyest and best seruyce so that it nedeth not to be purged Ca. viii The solucyon that nothynge vnpurged and vnpure may remayne or abyde in heuen Cap. ix An obieccyon that yf there shulde be any place of purgatorye than that place shulde be here in erthe or elles yf there be any other place where is that place of purgatory Cap. x. The solucyon that yf god shuld be compelled to make purgatory here in erth that than god that is the hye iudge shuld be restrayned from his lyberte and authoryte more than any other yerthly iudge and also y â— it is a folysh questyon to aske where purgatory is Cap. xi An obieccyon because the mercy of god can not be without his iustyce remissyon is â—ydent to repentaunce therfore as sone as repentauÌ„ce is taken god of his iustyce muste gyue reâ—yssyon and therfore there ought to be no purgatory Cap. xii The solucyon yf god shuld gyue full remyssyon for euery synne without other satysfaccion thaÌ„ god shuld minyster his mercy wythout iustyce And as a man may offende to god alone also to god to his neygh bour therfore satysfaccyon must be made bothe to god to his neygh boure or elles hys neyghbour is not restored to his owne Cap xiii ¶ An obieccyon that when god forgyueth it nede no satysfaccyon to thy neyghbour because god is the very owner of all and thy neyghboure hathe no properte but as a seruaunte to god as but to make acounte to god therfore Cap. xiiii The solucyon that god hath an absolute power and an ordynary power and that by his ordynary power he can not discharge the yf thy repentaunce be not suffycyent And also y t thou canste not compelle god to forgyue the by his absolute power at thy pleasure Cap. xv ¶ Finis calendariâ— Johannes Rastell
¶ A new boke of purgatory whiche is a dyaloge dysputacyon betwene one ¶ Comyngo an Almayne a Christen man one ¶ Gyngemyn a turke of Machomett law dysputynge by naturall reason and good phi losophye whether there be a purgatorye or no purgatorye which boke is deuyded into thre dyalogys ¶ The fyrst dyaloge sheweth and treateth of the merueylous exystens of god ¶ The seconde dyaloge treateth of the immortalyte of mannys soule ¶ The thyrde dyaloge treateth of purgatory ¶ The prologe of the auctor IT happenyd so but late that for dyuers besynes and other affayres concernynge my selfe I toke a vyage out of this realme and passyd ouer this narow Occyan see and traueylyd in to dyuers farre countreys in the eest partyes and at the last as it was my chaunce I came into a great cytye where I made myn abode and there taryed by the space of xx dayes or aboue in whyche cytye there vseth contynually to resorte a great companye of marchauntys whyche be borne in sondrye and dyuers nacyons whyche be not onely Englyshmen Frenchmen Spanyardes Almaynes and other dyuers 〈◊〉 but also they y t be Turkes SaracieÌ„s other that be of Machametys lawe And bycause of interchaungynge of marchaundyses y â— sayd marchauntys do dayly mete togyder in dyuers placys within the same citye and whan they haue talked togyder of thynge concernyng theyr owne besynes yet for a recreacyon amonge them self they be desyrous eche of other to know news strauÌ„ge thynges of other contrees And as it happenyd to me on a season to be in the companye of dyuers of those marchauntys amonge them all specyall there were ii of theÌ„ of the whyche one was a turke called ¶ Gyngemyn borne vnder Machometys law and y â— other was a Christenman callyd ¶ Comyngo borne in hye 〈◊〉 which were of olde famylyer accoyntauÌ„ce bothe of thâ—m men of great wytte and of good lernynge and specyally y â— turk whyche was well lernâ—d bothe in morall phylosophye and naturall betwâ—ne whom I herde myth good communycacion argumentys and rea sons whych lyked me very well and so wel pleased me that immedyatly after that I toke penne â—nke tytled it in wrytynge reported euery argument reason as nygh as my wytte and remembraunce wold serue me after the maner as here after foloweth in this lytell boke And in the begâ—nnynge of theyr sayd coÌ„munycacyon Comyngo the Almayn asked of Gyâ—gemyn the Turke what tythynges or news were in his contrey whych Gyngemyn shewed hym of the great 〈◊〉 whych y â— great Turk had lately had in dyuers places as well of the great sege of y â— Rodes as of the great batayles whych he had lately had in â—ungarye But yet the sayd Gyngemyn was not so glad to tel the tythyngys news in about his contrey as he was desyrous to knowe of some strauÌ„ge news in other placis in Christendom And oft tymes required this Comyngo to shew hym some new tythynges of his contrey To y â— whyche Comyngo the Al mayne answered and shewed hym that there was a newe varyaunce in Christendome and a sâ—ysme begonne of late amonge the people there coÌ„ceâ—nyng theyr fayth and byleue and sayd that there was a new opinyon spronge amoÌ„ge the people that there is no purgatory nor that the soule of man after it is separate from the body shal neuer be purged nor puryfyed of no synne that remayneth therin but y â— it shal immedyatly after it is separate from the body go to heuen to eternall ioy and saluacyon or ellys to hell to eternall payne and dampnacyon To whome Gyngemyn answered and sayd that y â— opynyon was but folysh and agayns all good naturall reason bycause that all people in y â— world of what coÌ„trey so euer they haue be or be or of what law secte so euer they haue be or be aswel the Panyms the Iewes and you that be of Chrystes fayth we that be of Machomets law and all other that euer lyued or do lyue after the order of any good reason haue euer byleued and do byleue that there is a purgatory where mannes soules shall be purged after this mortall lyfe Therfore quod he I meruell greatly that there shuld any suche fond opinyon begynne amonge the people now in any contrey consyderynge y â— there is no reason to maynteyne theyr opynyon that euer I coude here ¶ The reasons of them that holde opynyoÌ„ that there is no purgatory To whom Comyngo y â— Almayne answered sayd that they had dyuers reasons to maynteyne theyr opinioÌ„ theriÌ„ wherof one is this ¶ They say y â— contrycyoÌ„ whiche some call repentaunce is that whiche is the very payment and satysfaccyon for synne and they say that when a man commyttyth a synne and after is repentaunte therfore that god of his goodnes doth forgyue hym and that y â— repentaunce is the onely satysfaccyon that god wolde haue to be made and done for that synne And than syth that a man whiche is a synner by suche repentaunce hath made suche paymeÌ„t and satysfaccyon for his synne as god wolde haue to be made therfore yf than that man shuld go to purgatory and haue a new punyshmeÌ„t after his deth that repentaunce that he had before shuld be but voyde ¶ A nother reason they alege that man was ordeyned and made to haue an infynyte beynge therfore after this mortall dethe he must haue infynyte ioy or infynyte payne So thaÌ„ he is not ordeyned to haue payn in purgatory that hath an ende ¶ A nother reason they alege and that is this God by the order of his iustyce hath ordeyned heuen where that good men shall be rewarded hell where synners shall be punysshed and in bothe those places orders and degrees that is to say that he whiche deserueth a great and an hye reward shall haue in heuen a great ioye and he that deserueth a smaller rewarde shall haue a smaller ioye and also he that deserueth a great punyshment shall haue in hell great payne and he that deserueth a lesse punyshment shall haue in hell lesse payne So that whether a man haue deseruyd a great ioy or a small ioy a great payn or a small payne god may by his order of good iustyce rewarde or punysh hym accordyng to his deseruynge so that there nedeth no place of purgatory ¶ A nother reason they alege that though a man be not clerely purged of his â—ynne when he dyeth and though some spot tokeÌ„ therof remayne in his soule wherby he is som what deformed yet y t soule maye do some meane and low seruyce or pleasure to god in heuen though it be not the hyest and best seruyce nor though it haue not the greatest â—oye in heuen yet it may haue some small ioy and be in some low place in heueÌ„ there haue a â—oyous lyfe wherwith it wyll be ryght well content and so rewaâ— dâ—d accordynge to his
desert though it be not purged and made so clene as other soules that be there and so nedeles to ordeyn for that soule any other place of purgatory ¶ A nother reason they alege y â— god hath ordeyned heuen to be a place of 〈◊〉 â—oy and hell to be a place of infinyte payne yerth where we be to be a place myxte somtyme of â—oy somtyme of payne whych neuer endureth but for a tyme y â— shall haue ende And than syth that the soule offendeth beynge here with the body it is conuenyent it shuld be purged here with y â— body And bycause y â— god hath ordeyned this place in yerth to be a place 〈◊〉 of â—oy payne y â— shal haue ende it is most coÌ„uenycÌ„t y â— the place of purgatorye shuld be here in yerth bycause it is y â— place ordeyned for payne that shall haue an ende â—o nedeth to put none other place of purgatory yf theâ—e be any other place where is y â— place of purgatory ¶ A nother they alege that bycauâ—e the mercy of god caÌ„ not be w tout his 〈◊〉 and remâ—ssyon is euer incydent to repentaunce therfore as sone as repentaunce is taken god of his iustyce must gyue remyssyon therfore 〈◊〉 repentaunce and remyssyon there ought to be no purgatorye ¶ A nother obâ—eccyon they alege that yf thou do an offence to god and to thy neyghbour whâ—n god forgyueth it nede none other satysfaccyoÌ„ to thy neyghbour bycause god is the very owner of all and thy neyghbour hath no ê“perte but as a seruauÌ„t to god as but to make accouÌ„pte to god ¶ To whom this Gyngemyn the turke anone answered and saâ—d that as for all those reasons they may be sone answered auoyded yf thou wylt gyue to me dylygent heryng I shall gyue the suffycyent solucâ—ons to al those reasons satysfye thy mynde And further I shal ê“ue to y e by other argumentes by natural reason good phylosophye y â— there must nedys be a purgatory where y â— soule of man after y â— it is separat from the body shalbe purged and puryfyed To whom this Comyngo sayde y t he wold be meruelous glad to here his mynde therin To whom this Gyngemâ—n than sayd y t he must immedyatly go in to the strete to speke with a marchauÌ„t to aske of hym but one short question touchyng y â— besynes of his marchauÌ„dyse sayd that he wold retorne agayne incontyneÌ„t which as he sayd he dyd taryed not long but shortly camagayn And as sone as euer they were mete there agayn they begaÌ„ theyr coÌ„munycacioÌ„ Co myngo y ◠〈◊〉 begaÌ„ fyrst to speke sayd as hereafter now foloweth ¶ finis prologi ¶ The fyrst d'aloge of the merueylous existens of god ¶ An introduccyon to the mater Caput primum COmyngo the almayne ¶ Nowe my frynde Gyngemâ—n becawâ—e thou say dest cre whyle that thou woldest proue to me by naturall reason and good phi losoâ—hye that there is a purgatorye where the sowle of man after that yt is separate frome the bodye shall be 〈◊〉 and puryfred I praye the lette me knowe thyne opynyon therin and let me here what reasons thou caÌ„st alege therfore ¶ Gyngemin the turk ¶ I shall proue the that or thou go yf thou wylte abyde the argument therof and pacyently wyth good delyberacyon here me Comyngo ¶ I shall be contente to gyue dylygent herynge therto but yet I praye the then to suffer me to answere the and to obiecte and to replye against the whâ—n that I thynke in myne opynyon that thy argumeÌ„tes and reasons be not suffycyent to satysfye my mynde ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ Therwyth I am well content and thy request is reasonable For wyth reasons and argumentes made pro et contra and on bothe partyes answered replyed and obiected the truthe of euery proposycyon shlal soner and better be knowen but yet one thynge I wyll warne the consyderynge that my onely purpose is to proue the thynge by reason that in thy reasons and obieccyons agaynst me that thou aledge no maner texte nor authoryte neyther of the bokys of the olde byble nor of the newe testament neyther of no other boke of that that thou calleste the holy scrypture of the deuynrte of thy crrsten faythe nor of the lawes made therfore whyche thou by thy faythe arte bounde to belyue For thou mayst well knowe yt wyll be but a thynge in vayne to aledge suche textrs or authorrtees to me for that that I and all other turkys of our lawes and secte wyll vtterly denye many of the prynciples and many of the textâ—s and authorrtees of thy crysten beleue and farth ¶ Comyngo ¶ Because thou 〈◊〉 so I shall not trouble the wyth aledgynge of any suche textrs or authorrtees of our fayth or lawe And ther fore I praye the lykewyse â—se the same maner vnto me nor aledge thou no texte nor authorytees of the boke of thy lawe callyd the Alcoron nor of ony other boke of thy Machomettâ—s lawe for yf thou do I wyll be as redy to denye those textes and authorytees of thy faythe and lawe as thou wylte be redy to denye those textes and authorytees of my beleue fayth ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ It is but â—eash thou shuldest so do therfore let vs now bothe ley all textys and authorytees of eyther of oure beleuys and lawys appart and se how we can proue by reason and good naturall phi losophy that there is a purgatorye where that mennys sowles shulde be purged and puryfyed ¶ Comyngo ¶ But I thynke yt wyll be harde for the to proue yt Therfore I pray the begynne and let me here thy reason ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ wyth ryght good wyll but yet then fyrst or that I procede to that mater concernynge purgatorye thou must fyrst graunte me two pryncyples or conclusyons One is that there is a god aboue all whyche ruleth and gouerneth all and conserueth and kepepyth all and regardeth and taketh hede to all A nother is that the soule of man is immortall and shall neuer dye but hathe a lyfe perpetuall ¶ Comyn ¶ As to those two poyntys I muste nedys graunt the. ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ what moueth the to graunt them so sone ¶ Comyngo ¶ Mary because y â— our holy scrypture sheweth yt and techeth vs so And also all our lawes byndeth vs and coÌ„pellyth vs to belyue it ¶ Gyng ¶ ye but yet lay all the scry pture lawes apart and tell me what thynkest thou by those two poynte in naturall reason ¶ Comyngo ¶ By my trouth I thynke that no man onely by reason can proue that there is a god that gouerneth all conserueth all and taketh hede to all nor that that the soule of man is immortall and dothe neuer dye ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ yes I shall proue to the bothe those poyntys by reason so that thyne onely reason shall iudge them to be true yf thou wylt dâ—scretly scretly consyder yt and serche
therfore folowe that god of hys ryghteousnes must cause that man to be purged puryfyed in a nother place to make satysfaccyon for those offen ces before that he shalbe able to perceyue the eternall ioy or to be partyner of the goodnes of god for the whych he was created and made And so by the iustyce of god there must nedys be a purgatorye ¶ An obieccyon because repentaunce is the onely thynge that clerely wassheth puttyth away â—ll synne done by man and that god of his iustyce muste than dyscharge hym therof therfore it nedeth thaÌ„ no nother purgatory Laput. ii COmyngo ¶ That reason me thynketh taketh but small holde for thou knowest well and all clarkes here to agre y t repentauÌ„ce is the very only thynge that wasshyth puttyth clerely a way all synne done by man agayns god and that repentaunce is onely that thynge that god wold haue to be made and done for the satysfaccioÌ„ of the synne for which repentaunce so made and hadde god of his mercyfull goodnes doth dys charge acquyte and pardon the man for that synne and offence so done all though that man neuer toke nor suffred any other penaunce or payne therfore here vpon yerthe as by example yf that I owe to the an L. 〈◊〉 of trew det and yf y t I humbly desyre the to forgyue me my det thaÌ„ yf thou of thy gentylnes onely for that loue that thou knoweth that I bere vnto the wylt dyscharge and pardon to me that det and make a clere relese vn to me therof I am thaÌ„ clerely dyscharged of that det nor am neuer bouÌ„d by order of no lawe nor iustyce to make any other paymeÌ„t or satysfaccyoÌ„ to the therfore So lyke wyse wheÌ„ god of his goodnes forgyueth me myn offence and synne for the repentaunce that I haue taken therfore I am thaÌ„ clerely releasyd and dyschargyd of that offence and synne and ought neuer to haue other punyshmeÌ„t or to make other satysfaccyon therfore and so than it shall not stande wyth any coÌ„uenyent reason y t there shuld be any purgatory or place of punishmeÌ„t for that offence and synne which is pardoned and released but that after such pardoÌ„ and release made by god to me for myne offence and synne that god of his goodnesse shulde rewarde me and so to make me partyner of the eternall ioy in heuen for the whyche I was create made And on the other syde yf I were neuer repentaunt for my offence but dyed unpenytent than god of hiâ— iustyâ— muste gyue me eternall punyshment therfore in hell and therfore to put any purgarye yt shulde seme by the ryghtâ—ousnes of god to be but in vâ—yne ¶ The solucyon yf god shuld be compelled to forgyue the synne immedyatly after repeÌ„taunce he shuld be restreyned of his syberte and from the exeâ—ucyon of his iustyce Laput. iii. Gyngemyn ¶ Thy answere methyâ—beth is not suffycyent for in the case whych thou haâ— put yf thou desyre my forgyuenes of thy L. 〈◊〉 yet yt it is at my lyberte and of my gentylnes whether I wyll wyll forgyue the y e hole L. 〈◊〉 or elles parte therof And yf I thynke in my mynde that the forgynenes of the hole L. li. is to great a rewarde to the for any louc or kyndnes that thou haste she wed vnto me or ellys yf I thâ—nke that thy loue and kyndnes shewed to me is a suffyeyâ—nt recompence for that L. 〈◊〉 but yet per aduenture I thynke that it is not a suffyâ—nt satye â—cyon and recompence for the losse of tyme and damages hurte and hynderaunce that I haue had for the none payment of the. L. 〈◊〉 whâ—che peraduenture shuld haue ben payd to me longe tyme before than yâ— I of my gentilnes do forgrue the the hole L. li. and yet for that gentylnes y t I she we to the because it is at my lyberte whether I wyll forgyue the or no I wyll that thou shuld do me some other seruyce and take som paâ—n or 〈◊〉 for me by the space of two or 〈◊〉 daees Than thou canst not say but than I do to the no 〈◊〉 but shew to the gentylnes and great metcy So lyke wyse whan thou takest repentauce and askâ—st mercy of god for thy synnc no man ought to be so folysh to thynke that god shuld be restrayned and coÌ„pelled but that he is at his lyberte alwaye to execute hiâ—â—ustyce or mercy at his pleasure and that euermore it is at hys liberte whether he wyll forgyue or no. For yf god shulde be compelled to do the one or the other than god shuld haue no noble beynge but a beynge and a lyfe in a maner in boundage and seruytude But god must nedys haue the most noblest lyfe and most pleasaunt lyfe as I haue proued before to the in our seconde dyaloge than god muste euermore be at his lyberte to execute hys iustice or mercy at his pleasure And than yf that god vpoÌ„ the repentauÌ„ce wyll forgyue the yet yf he thynke that y t repentaunce which thou hast taken for thy synne is not suffycyent satysfaceyon therfore and than yf thou dyc before any other satysfaccyon made thaÌ„ god of necessite yf he 〈◊〉 â—xecute his iustice must nede cause y e to be punished in a nother place to make a full satysfaccyon for thyne offence but yet in that case yf he wyll execute hys mercy he may than at hys pleasure forgyue the all thy hole offence and synne wythout any other satysfaccyon to be suffred or done by the therfore But yet yf god in that case shuld thynke that thy repentaunce here in yerth were no full satisfaccyon for thy synne than yf god shuld be so restrayned y â— he shulde not ordeyne a place of purgacyon for thy soule where it shuld for a season remayne and haue punyshment to make a full satysfaccyon for thyn offence and synne than thou woldest exclude god both from his lyberte and from the execucyon of his iustyce Therfore yt foloweth by all conuenyent reason that there muste nedys be a purgatory where meÌ„nes soule shalbe purged or ellis they that shuld holde that opynyoÌ„ that there is no suche purgatory shulde offer to god a great wronge and shulde exclude goddys power and put hym bothâ— froÌ„ hys lyberte and execucyon of hys iustyce ¶ An obiâ—yon because man is ordeyned to haue an infy nyte beynge therfore after his deth he must haue infynyte ioy or infynyte payne and so no payne in purgatory which hath an ende Caput iiii COmyngo ¶ Though one shuld holde that opynyon that there is no purgatory yet he shulde therby nother mynysh y â— power of god nother restrayne his lyberte nother exclude the iustice of god for man is made and ordeyned by god to haue a beynge infynyte and that there is but two thynges ordeyned for mannes soule which is ioy or sorow And syth the soule of man after that it is separate
from this corruptyble body must nedys haue an infynyte beynge as thou hast proucd in thy seconde dyaloge which must be than infynyte sorowe or infynyte ioy and thaÌ„ as sone as it is separate from the corruptyble body god must than of his iustyce iudge that soule other to the place where is infynyte ioy or to that place where is infinyte sorw accordynge as it hath deserued So thaÌ„ yt shulde seâ—e in vayne to put any purgatory where the soule shulde haue any sorowe y t shuld haue an ende or to put any other place of ioye where the soule shuld haue ioy whyche ioy shulde haue an ende ¶ The solucyon as there be degrees in synne as some synne is more and some lesse so there be degrees in repentauÌ„ce as some may be more and some lesse and also degrees of pardon forgy uenes therfore maÌ„ for lak of sufficieÌ„t repentaunce muste be purged Laput. v. Gyngemyn ¶ To satysfye thy mynde in that poynt thou must consy der that god of his goodnes hathe create the worlde and all thynge therin conteyned in a conuenyent order of degree And thus of all the kynde of thynges that euer god made some be more and some lesse some be small and some smaller As of corporall thynges some be harde some more harde and some be softe and some be more softe some be hote some be more hote and some be colde and some be more cold lyke wyse of thynges incorporall some be great and some be greater As of vertue some is good and some better and of vyce some is euyll some is worse how sayst thou thynkest not thou that this pryncyple is reasonable and trew ¶ Comyngo ¶ I thynke yt is trewe that thou sayst ¶ Gyngemyn ¶ Than thus is not some syn offence that a man coÌ„mytteth somtyme more and somtyme lesse ¶ Comyn ¶ I thynke so Gyn. ¶ And doth not euery offence deserue punyshment ¶ Comyn ¶ yes ¶ Gyng ¶ Than is there no degrees in punyshment as well as there is degrees in synne offence so that some punyshment is more and some is lesse and is there not also degrees in repentaunce and some repentaunce is great some greater and also degrees in forgyuenes pardone as some forgyuenes and pardone great and some greater ¶ Comyn ¶ what than ¶ Gynge ¶ ThaÌ„ ought not euery offence synne be punysshed by y e iustyce of god in order and degree accordyng as it is so y t yf y e offence synne be great it ought to haue a great punyshment and yf it be small it ought to haue smal punyshment ¶ Co. ¶ Iuste ¶ Gyn. ¶ Than I say whaÌ„ that a man here in yerth hath coÌ„mytted a great synne and offence and taken repentauÌ„ce wherby the synne is forgyuen and yet hath not takeÌ„ such sufficient repentaunce therfore nor had any suffycyent punyshment whych shulde make a full payment and satisfaccyoÌ„ for that synne and dyeth before any coÌ„dygne or full satysfaccion made god must nedys than of his ryghteous nes ordeyne a place of purgatory where hys soule shall haue a forther pu nyshment to make a condygne and full satysfaccyoÌ„ for that synne and so to be purged and puryfyed before yt shall be able worthy to be admytted to receyue the eternall ioy in heuen As by example yf a man coÌ„myt a treason agaynste his prynce wherfore he ought by order of the lawe to lese his goodes and to haue imprysonment and also to be put to detche and when he is conuycted there vppon than because he seeyth he can not auoyde from the punyshment of the lawe he is repentaunt and sory for his offence and prayeth hys prynce of forgyuenes yet this repentaunce sorowe that he taketh for his offence 〈◊〉 can neuer be so great but that yet this prynce by iustyce may take his good and inpryson hys body and af ter that put hym to dethe for the sayde offence by order of his lawes do hym iustyce And so at his pleasure execute y e extremyte of hys law wyth out doyng any wronge to hym But yet this prynce may yf he wyl by his mercy pardon his lyfe take hys goodes impryson his body for a tyme and season or as longe as he wyll at hys pleasure and accordyng to the degre and qualyte of the same offence tyll he haue made a full satysfaccyon to hys prynce for that treasoÌ„ done to hym but yet yf y â— prynce shuld punyshe euery offender to thexstremyte of deth wythoute any mercy it shuld seme a thynge so wnyng to cruelte and also clerely agayns y â— prerogatyue of hys mercyfull power and auctoryte And also yf a prynce in suche case shulde forgyue euery suche offender for suche a great offence whyche hath taken but a small repentaunce and soro we therfore it shuld bothe be an example to all suche offenders and to gyue theÌ„ and all other comfort and boldnes to do lyke offences whyche were a thynge y t shulde 〈◊〉 to the subuersyon of his lawe and derogacion of iustyee Therfore yf such a prynce wold be reputed for a dyscret prynce a mercyfull prince he must somtyme forgyue the hole offence and somtyme execute iustyce accordyng to hys lawes and also somtyme pardone parte of the punyshment condigne for the offence and gyue but a temporall punâ—shment for a tyme and season accordynge to the degre and qualyte of the oâ—fence of the repentaunce And so lyke wyse whan that a man hath commytted a synne an offence and taketh some repentaunce therfore but not suffy cyent and than dyeth thaÌ„ god of hys goodnes by y â— order of his iustyce mercy muste somtyme pardone that offence from the eternall deth and yet gyue hym some punyshment which shuld not be to the extremyte as to condemâ—ne hys soule to eternall sorowe and payne but to haue some 〈◊〉 for a tyme and season to puryfye to purge the soule of that offence accordynge to degree and qualyte of the offence for as I sayde before as there is degeees in repentaunce as some is more and some is 〈◊〉 â—o god of hâ—s iustyce must vse degrees in forgyuenes and in pardon so that though he forgyue the eternall payne and sorowe whych is coÌ„dygne for the great offence and synne whych the man dyd coÌ„myt yet it ston deth wyth the great dyscreat wysdom of god to punysh the soule for that offence for a season to puryfye and purge it that yt may be able to be admytted to come to the eternall ioy for the which he was made and create For yf that men coÌ„myttynge dyuers synnes or offences agayns god in dyuers orders and degrees as some more some lesse and dyuers of theÌ„ take repentaunce dyuersly some more and some lesse and than yf god shulde not vse dyuers degrees of forgyuenes and pardon but punysshe euery of them eternally therfore yt shuld sown than to the subuersyon of hys owne
after the naturall deth that man can take no such repentaunce wherby he shuld be helyd of that mortall synnc and offence than god of his iustice must clerâ—ly expulse his soule from the eternall ioy in heuen because it is putryfyed corrupted But yet yf a man haue commytted suche a great mortall synne offence to god and hath taken repentaunce wherby that mortall stroke wouÌ„d is heled before his deth before his soule is separate pulled fro y t body but yet that maÌ„ is not fully purged therof or â—lle not clene of other small offences nor redy nor rype to do pure clene seruyce to god in heueÌ„ but that there remayneth in hym some tokens spottes of synne and offence god of his iustyce may not then condempne his soule to eternall punyshment nor immedyatly to recâ—yue that soule to the blysse ofheueÌ„ to ioy to coÌ„pany wyth those gloryfyed pure soules in heuen tyll those tokens and spottes of synne be clere wasshed awaye and purged and he made re dy 〈◊〉 to do to god pure and clene seruyce in heuen Therfore than by conuenyent iustyce of god there inuste nedys be a place of purgacyon where his soule must be purged and made clene of those tokens spottes of synne or that it be able to be receyued to the eternal ioy in heuen And also a lyke resemblaunce I may make of thynges whych haue soule sensy tyue as yf thou haue a swyne which is infected with pox or other syknes or an ox that is infected with any syknes which swyne or ox yf they shuld be than slayne were not good nor holsome for maÌ„nys mete but the flesh putryfyed corupte and yet by medycyn and good kepyng that swyne or oxe may be heled and than whyle those 〈◊〉 be lyuynge nature shall ex pulse those infectuos humours brynge those bestes agayne to helthe make them so wnde and theyr flesh good and holsome for mannys mete But yet yf those bestes whyche haue ven infecte with such corrupt syknes haue taken medycyne and that corrupt syknes therby expelled euer in cresynge to more helth and the felsh holsome ynoughe to be eten for man â—ys mete But yet the flesh is so bare and lene that it is not pleasaunt to ete as other flesh is Or cllys yf such bestys haue taken some dysease by ex cessyue colde or hete the flesh not putryfyed nor corrupte but bare and lene and therfore not pleasaunt to be eten for mannys mete yet yf those best vs be kylled yet thou mayst make the flesshe of those bestys though it be neuer so lene by sethynge or rostynge it wyth butter or fat larde to be good mannes mete and pleasauÌ„t to be eten able to serue the at thy dyner or feast for thy frendes and louers So in the same maner it is whaÌ„ that a man is infecte wyth a great mortall synne which he hath commytted agayns god And yf his soule were than separate from his body yet then hys soule ought not to be receyued of god in to heuen nor to do seruyce there vnto god because it is putryfyed and corrupted with y t foule mortall synne but yf that maÌ„ had taken the medecin of full repeÌ„taunce in his lyfe that medecyn wold haue restored hym agayne to his soule helth and vertue But yet yf he haue taken some repentaunce for that synne and of fence and not suffycient not had suffycyent tyme to make suffycyent sa tysfaccyon therfore yet by the takynge of that medecyn of repentaunce that syn is expelled and gon and the soule of that sâ—kenes and synne is clerely hole but yet the tokeÌ„s and spottys of that synne whiche is a defor mytâ— to the soule do styll remanyn in that soule tyll y t soule haue a tyme to be wasshed and purged from those tokeÌ„s and spottys to make yt pure and dene of that deformyte ¶ An obieccyon that the soule vnpurged maye do some meane and lowe seruyce to god in hâ—ueÌ„ though it be not the hyest and best seruycâ— so that it nedeth not to be purged Caput viii COmyngo ¶ yet me thynketh that proueth not y â— of necessyte there must be a purgatory to purge to wasshe a way clene those spottes and tokens whych is but a deformyte to the soule but coÌ„syderynge that by that medecyne of repentaunce that sekenes of the soule is therby put awaye and expelled and the soule so made hole agayne all though that there be spottes and tokens remaynynge which is but a deformyte to the soule and no mortall sekenes those tokens spottes than nede not to be wasshed away but yf they remayne styll yet they do no hurte but y t soule may do good and perfyte seruyce to god in heueÌ„ for all though that god wyll not put such soules in the hyest and most purest place in heuen becau se they be not so pure as other soules be but somwhat deformed whyche is but as an eye sore yet he wyll not clerely expell theÌ„ out of heueÌ„ but put them in some other low place in heuen As by example yf y â— a man which kepeth an honorable house and vseth to feaste great lordes and estates at his table and prepareth fyne dyaper table clothys and napkyns where wyth to serue them at his table at his dyners and feaste yf ony of those table clothes or napkeÌ„s be defouled wyth dust fylth or other foule mater which is not swete yet y t man will not suffer those clothes to be occupyed at his table tyll they be wasshed and made clene and the fylth so clerely expelled that they may be swete and clene worthy to serue hym at his table But yet yf they haue ben so defouled wyth some foule fylth wher by they be stayned that though they be wasshed neuer so clene yet some spot and token wyll remayne of that staynynge so that though they be pure clene and swete inough to do seruyce at his table yet y â— spottes and tokens of the steynynge whych remayne be than a great deformyte â—ye sore yet this maÌ„ yf he be wyse wyll not caste away those clothes but wyll that they shall do hym seruyce in some other place and offyce of his house as in his buttry or ewry or his chaÌ„ber where they shal do to him as good seruyce as though they were not stayned nor had no such spottes nor tokens of deformyte to the eye And lyke resemblance also I may make of a prynce whych must retayne in hys house to be hys houshold seruauÌ„tes such men as he caÌ„ chuse in hys reame which be clene meÌ„ hole meÌ„ of body some to be in hys pryue chaÌ„ber some in hys hall and some in hys kychyn and some in other places of hys house yf any such seruantes whych thys prynce hath chosen to be in hys house haue had any great syknes wherof he is by medecyne throughly helyd and yet
wylt bynde god to be in a maner in bondage to haue lesse liberte auctorite than prynces and kynges haue in thys world for thou knowest well that a prynce or a kyng may by his power remitte ê‘done any traytour mor derer â—rer felon â—in hys realme though he haue deserued therfore to dye 〈◊〉 yet there is no such traytour inâ—rderer nor felon that can coÌ„pell that prynce to pardone hym al though that he aske hym forgyuenes but that that pâ—ynce may execute hys ordynary power vpon hym at hys lyberte to put hym to deth by y â— order of hys lawes or elles to ydone hym of deth â—ue hym some other punyshmeÌ„t for hys offence as prysonmeÌ„t or some other payne by hys dyscrâ—yoÌ„ so thy repentauÌ„ce may be such so great y t god by hys orâ—ynary power maye and wyll forgyue the clerely bothe the synne â— y â— satysfaccioÌ„ therfore it may be so small a repentauÌ„ce that god wyl forgyue the y â— synne and not clerely expulse the out of his fauour but yet wyll that thou shalt haue a forther punyshment to make the as pure and clere as thou wast before and so than able to be receyued in to his fâ— uour and to be pertyner of his glory so these thynges coÌ„sydered it must folowe necessarely that there must nedes be a purgatory ¶ A nother reason for a conclusyon of thys mater I shall shewe the because I can nat tary myche longer wyth the yf thou or ony other shulde hold thys opynyon chat god for a lytyll repentauÌ„ce had be thy for thyne offences and synnes shulde so ê‘done and forgyue the so y t thou shuldest not nede to make any other satysfaccyoÌ„ or restitucyon to thy neyghbour whom thou haste so wronged and after thy dethe thou shuldest haue no nother punyshment in purgatory therfore and to beleue that there is no purgatory ordeyned therfore thys thyng shuld put away y â— drede of god from the most parte of the people in the worlde and gyue them boldnes to do and commytte offences and synnes and yf the people shuld beleue that they neuer neded to make any satysfaccion nor restytucion to theyr neyghbours for the wronges that they haue done to theyr neyghbours and that suche a lyght repentauÌ„ce shuld be suffycyent for ony other satys faccyon to be made yt shulde gyue to the people suche boldnes that they wolde neuer force nor care what wronges eâ—ons theftes roberyesâ— nor morders that they dyd and so in conclusyon shuld destroy all vertue and increase vyce and synne and also vtterly destroy the comen welthe quiete lyuynge of the people ¶ â—go ¶ Thy reasons and solucyon to all my questyons and obieccions be so good that thou hast meruelous well satysfyed my mynde in euery thyng yt shuld seme a great meruel how thou shuldest come to so hye lernynge knowlege saue y t I meruell mych the lesse because I herde the say that thou hast be brought vp some parte of thy youth in crystendome and ben a student in dyuers â—rsytes in crysteÌ„dome where thou saydest thou dydest ierne and rede â—ych phylosophye wherby as I sayd thou hastnow satysfyed my mynde right well and that now I must nedys consente vnto the that there must nedâ— be a purgatory for y â— purgyng of meÌ„nes soules after that they be separat from the body and also by the same last reason whych thou hast shewed yt ê“ueth well that yt shuld be a great folyshnes for y â— people to beleue the contrary therof that is to say y t there shuld be no purgatory for y t folysh beleue shuld be meruelous hurtfull to y â— peple for fyrst as thou saydest it shuld bryng theÌ„ from the drede of god whych drede of god is the begynnyng of all wysdom And we know well y t y â— fraylte of maÌ„kynde is such y â— it is euermore more ê“ne redy to vice thaÌ„ to vertue wherfore maÌ„ hath nede to haue both a brydel of law which is to punysh vyce in this world also a brydell of y â— drede of god whych is a drede to offende for y â— loue of god and a drede to be punysshed in an other world for offence done here in thys transytory lyfe But yf men shulde beleue that there is no purga tory but that immediatly the soule of man for a lytell small repentaunce takeÌ„ shuld go streyght to heuen yt shulde as thou saydest gyue theÌ„ suche a boldnes that many men wold lytell regarde what hurte or wrong they dyd to theyr neyghbours and so shuld be the cause to brynge the peple to lyue to geder contynually in trouble vexacyon vnquietnesse of mynde to the destruccion of theyr own comeÌ„ welth in this world It shuld also cause the vtter losse and dampnacion in hell of many thousand soules be cause they wold euer trust that yf they lyued neuer so vyciously that yet they wolde or they dyed take some repentaunce wherin peraduenturâ— many shuld be deceyued For we se by experyence that there be many pe ple in the worlde whyche dye sodeynly some be sodeynly drowned some sodeynly slaynâ— and some dye sodeynly of some other sekenes peradueÌ„ ture haue no tyme to remember god or thynke of any repentaunce and than yf such people that so dye haue offended god and commytted some great mortall synne for the whyche god by his iustyce must condempne hym to eternall dampnacyon in hell thys boldnes of trust to take repen taunce or ther dye where they be deceyued for lacke of tyme shuld caâ— many thousandes of peple to be eternally dampned in hell And an other thynge yet there is to be consydered whych I haue gederd vpon thy reâ— sons argumentes that yf a man offende and commytte some small venyall synne for the whych god wyll that by hys iustyce he must haue som punyshment therfore but yet not eternall dampnacyon yf such a synnet dye sodenly and before he haue had any tyme to take any repentaunceâ— hys soule as yt is prouyd by all thy forsayd argumeÌ„tys reasons ought neyther immedyatly to come in to y â— gloryous place of heuen because yt is somwhat defouled wyth synne nor also ought not to go to hell to etet nall dampnacy on but by all good order of iustyce must go to a place to be purged there to be made clene that yt may be receyued after that in to the gloryous place of heuen Therfore vpon these reasons whych thou hast shewed these premysses consydered he shall be proued a very stark fole that wyll beleue that there is no purgatory ¶ Gynge ¶ I am very glad now that thy mynde is satysfyed in this mater and therfore now be cause I haue a lytel besynes to do touchyng y â— fete of my marchaundyse I wyll departe byd the farewell ¶ Comyn ¶ Now I thanke the wyth all â—yn hart and I shall loue the whyle
to be purged there is y â— place lymytatyue of the soule and there is the purgatorye of that soule For there can be no purgatory but there where the soule is purged and where so euer god doth lymyt y â— soule to be purged there is y â— lymytatyue place of purgatory Also where the vertuous operacyon of god is and where hys vertuouse worke doth appere there is the operatyue place of god and there god hym selfe is in hys place operatyue and therfore because the meruelous operacyon and worke of god appereth in euery place of the worlde therfore god is in euery place and parte of the worlde accordynge as I haue proued to the here before in our fyrst dyaloge And also because that purgatory where meâ—nys soules be purged is that where god worketh hys vertuous operation in execucioÌ„ of his iustyce therfore that purgatory is the very place operatyue of god whych is in no certayne place contynentyue but there where pleaseth god and there in such tyme or tymes where wheÌ„ and how his pleasure is that it shall be Therfore to thy questyon I say y â— pur gatory is no place contynentyue of it selfe because yt conteyneth no reall nor corporall thynges within it because it is ordeyned only for purgyng of soules whych be thynges racyonall and incorporall Nor also purgato ry is within no place contynentyue because it is no suche reall thynge of it selfe that may be perceyued by any of our fyue senses and wyttes ¶ An obieccyon because the mercy of god caÌ„ not be with out his iustyce and remyssyon is incydent to repentauÌ„ce therfore as sone as repentaunce is taken god of his iustyce must gyue remyssyon and therfore there ought to be no purgatory Caput xii COmyngo ¶ Thou arte so subtyll in thy solucyon that I wote not well how to reply vnto the but yet I pray the let me see howe thou canste satysfye my mynde in one poynte Thou dydest proue to me but late in our fyrst dyaloge and dysputacyon that two thynges of neces syte be belongynge and be incydent to the goodnes of god that was iustyce and mercy and that the one can not be wythout the other ¶ Gyng ¶ That is truthe ¶ Comyngo ¶ And the very dyffynycyon of iustyce is thus Iustice is a constant and a perpetuall wyll gyuyng to euery thyng hys owne And mercy is no more but the mynde of a pytefull affecte and meryte is the execucyon of iustyce and remyssyon is y e execucyon of mercy and meryte is alwaye incydent to iustyce so that god by the order of iustice must gyue to euery creature his own meryte accordyng as it doth deserue to haue that is to say for synne and offence to gyue punyshment of payne or sorowe and for vertue to gyue rewarde of ioye or pleasure And that as meryte is of necessyte incydent to the iustyce of god so is re myssyon incydent to the mercy of god so that god can not mynyster hys mercy to no creature without remyssyon And euery synne that is coÌ„myt ted by y â— iustyce of god it must haue punyshmeÌ„t and by the mercy of god remyssyon And as thou dydest grauÌ„t me ere whyle y â— synne is alway put away expelled and destroyed by the only medecyne of repentaunce and than as punyshment by the iustyce of god is incydent to the repentaunce which taketh a way y e synne so as god by y â— order of iustyce ought to gyue punyshment for the synne whyche remayneth so lyke wyse he ought by y â— order of iustyce to gyue remissyon for that medecyn of repentauÌ„ce which hath taken away the synne And because the iustyce of god and the mercy of god be so correlatyue that the one can not be wythout the other than god can neuer mynyster his iustyce wyth hys mercy excepte that he grue remissyon as sone as the repentaunce is taken Therfore yt standeth not only with y â— mercy of god but also wâ—th y â— iustice of god y â— as sone as repeÌ„ taunce is taken that god must gyue remissyon and than whan god hath remytted that synne god hath than fully executed both hys iustyce his mercy but yf he shuld after that gyue a ferther punyshmeÌ„t for that synne so remytted other in purgatory or elles where yt shuld folow then y â— god dâ—de not execute hys iustyce before and so than the mercy of god and the iustyce of god cowde not be correlatyue but that hys mercy myght be w tout hys iustyce whyche is coÌ„trary to that pryncyple that we bothe fyrste agreed that hys iustyce mercy can not be the one wythoute the other therfore yt semeth there ought to be no purgatory ¶ The solucyon yf god shuld gyue full remyssyon for euery synne wythout other satisfaccyon than god shuld my â—ster hys mercy wythout iustyce And as a man may offende to god alone and also to god to hys neyghboure therfore satysfaccyon must be made both to god to hys neyghbour or elles hys neyghbour is not restored to hys owne Caput xiii Gyngemyn ¶ Thou dost ymagyn so many subtyll obteccions in thys mater that I can not well tell howe to satysâ—ye thy mynde but yet thys reason that thou haste laste made dothe make agayns the as me semeth for we bothe agree that the iustyce of god and the mercy of god be euermore correlatyue and concurrant to geder and that god doth neuer punysh any synne but that the punâ—shment is lesse than yt doth deserue and therin he sheweth hys mercy And also god dothe neuer rewarde no creature for any vertue but that his rewarde is greater than he doth dedeserue to haue and therin also god dothe execute hys mercy and dothe gyue remyssyon for his remyssioÌ„ is nothyng elles but a gyft of his grace and goodnes but he neuer gyueth hys remyssyon but for a conuenyent cause whyche is accordynge to hys iustyce because hys iustyce and mercy must euermore go to geder and therfore forgofen in your douch toÌ„ge is a very proper word for remyssyon because it is a gyft for a cawse But than to answere thyne obieccyon I saye yf that god shulde gyue remyssyon for euery synne that is commytted as sone as he hath taken repentaunce therfore without any other satysfaccyon or ferther punyshmeÌ„t to be had therfore thaÌ„ god shuld minyster his mercy without iustyce for by his iustyce he must gyue to euery thing his owne which owne is y e thyng whych it deserueth to haue so that yf the repentaunce whych a man hath taken here for his synne be not suffycyent sorowe to counterpeyle y e pleasure whyche he toke in doynge that synne god must by hys iustyce gyue hym a ferther punyshmeÌ„t whyche must be to suffer payne or sorowe suffy cent to purge hym of y â— synne or elles y â— remyssyon whych god doth gyue for the onely repentaunce of synne shuld be an execucyon of his mercy and