to God for me vnto suche confession doeth Saynte Iames exhorte vs sayinge Confesse your selues one to an other and praye eche one for other he doth not say confesse the vnto the priestes for as we oughte to praye the one for the other not the priestes onelye euen so ought we to reknowledge oure faultes one to an other coÌ„fesse our infirmities for to giue praises vnto God for the entertayning of amitie amoÌ„ge vs euerie one to seke the quietnes of other but I haue not founde in all the holye scripture that God hath coÌ„mâ—unded vs to go to tell all our synnes in the eate of a priest for that is impossible God doeth not so muche desire the reliting of our sinnes by perticuler Math. xvi as the coÌ„trition sighes sorowes of the herte the teares as we haue exemple in S. Petre which did much better coÌ„fesse his sinnes with his hert his eyes theÌ„ with mouth Natha I find that that thou saiest is very good but I woulde yet fayne knowe howe thys remissioÌ„ is practised in the church and howe we be partakers of it is it not by the bulles indulgence and pardons gyuen by the Pope Phy. It is by pardon and indulgence but not of paper and perchemente sealed wyth waxe or lead as those whych the Pope gyueth but by the indulgence and bulles that the celestiall father hath sente vs frome heauen by hys sonne Iesus Christe wryten in oure hertes wyth hys owne propre finger and by hys holy spirite sealed with his precious bloud ratified and confirmed by his death passion Natha The bulles and pardons of the pope be then nothynge worth Phy. Yes they profit them that gyueth them as towchyng theyr bodies bycause they take money for them but they brynge greate domage and hurte vnto theyr soules also vnto the bodyes and soules and goodes of theim that receyue them for in as much as they seke remission of synnes by anie other meane then by the bloude of our Lorde Iesus Christ they do not beleue the remissioÌ„ of sinnes the which they confesse the whych is in the church of Iesu christ wherfore they abide alwaies in their sinne daÌ„natioÌ„ subiectes to the cuâ—sse maledictioÌ„ that S. Petre dyd gyue vnto Simon Magus his monei Nata Thou wilte then saye ther â—â— no other true pope that maie giue vs indulgence and pardon for to deface and take awaye ours sinnes but Iesu Christ but by what meanes doth he make vs partakers of hys pardons and indulgences Phylype By the ministeri of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen that is to say by the predication preaching oâ— hys worde whiche is the true keye of knowledge Nathanaell And who then hath these keyes â—uc xi Math. xxiii Math. xvi Phy. The church to whom Christe hathe gyuen them and be put in vre and practise by al true euangelicall Apostles pastours ministers priestes Nata Haue they theÌ„ authoritie and power to pardon synnes to absolue men Phy. Not of them selues but by the ministration of the keyes and preachynge of the gospell Natha Speake thys more clearlye Phy. There is but the onelye God that may pardon and forgyue synnes and that maye gyue grace but wheÌ„ by his ministers he doth offre vnto vs Iesu Christe hys sonne by his worde and in hym remission of oure sinnes he that beleueth is saued vnbounde and deliuered frome his synnes and he that beleueth not abydeth bound and damned as the minister openeth vnto hym by the worde Natha Then the ministers be but seruauntes ambassadours haue no authoritie nor power â–ª but so much as theâ— take of the word in that they do faithfullie set forth theyr message and ambassade Phy. No for none can pardon the synnes but God when man doth open the word of god it is not maÌ„ that speaketh but it is the spirite of God that speaketh in hym by the whyche the bearer is bounde or losed accordyng to hys fayeth or vnbeleue Therfore dyd Iesus Christ blow toward his disciples gaue them the holie gost before he sayed vnto them whose synnes soeuer ye forgiue shal be forgiueÌ„ whose synnes soeuer ye retayne shal be retayned he woulde by that shewe that it was the holye Goste that dyd pardon them and not they whyche he dyd vse as hys instrumentes and messengers Natha I vnderstaÌ„d wel it is as an ambassadoure whyche if he fayethfullye execute hys Math. x. Ihon. x. chaâ—ge the prince confirmeth it that he doeth if he do otheâ—wyse he wyll not coÌ„firme it but punish hym greuouslye Phylype It is as a man that will open a gate it he haue no keye or if the keye that he hath be not mete for the locke he caÌ„ not opeÌ„ it and therfore in asmuche as Iesus Christâ— is the dore and the waye by the whyche onelye wee maye go vnto the father Rom. x. Luc. xi and wee can not goe vnto Iesus Christe but by fayeth whyche openeth vnto vs the dore and all the treasures that be in him and fayeth cometh by hearynge of the worde of God whych is the key of knowledge it doth wel folowe that al the power of the Apostles of theyr successours is there limited that he that hath not this key is no minister of christ Natha I may theÌ„ well vnderstande by thys that the power of the pope of byshopes and priestes doeth extende so farre as they folowe the worde of God and God doeth approue and confirme that whych they do by it that whyche they do wythout it or agaynste it he doeth condemne all Phy. If thou wylt se the practise of thys considre howe S. Peter dyd vse at Hierusalem he dyd open Iesus Christ penaunce and remission of sinnes in his name Practies of the keys Act. ii iii. vnto the Iewes they whyche the worde dyd touche at the herte and beleued in it were losed by hys ministerie accordynge to the promise of Iesu christ saing that he that beleueth Mark xvi is baptised shall be saued coÌ„trarye wise he that beleueth not shal be coÌ„demned it foloweth theÌ„ that al the infidels abide bound as by the open preachyng all the hearers be bound or vnbounde accordynge to theyr fayeth or vnbeleue euen so be wee by all the perticuler admonicions of the Gospell opened shewed forthe vnto vs by the seruauntes of God visitynge correckynge admonishynge or coÌ„solatyng of vs other in health or sikcenes Nathanaell Thys poynte is inoughe opened Resureccion of the fleshe declared let vs come nowe vnto that whych foloweth of the resurrectioÌ„ of the flesh and the lyfe eternall whych shal be for the end coÌ„clusioÌ„ wherfore be these two last articles put in Phy. For manye causes for wythout them al the religion were nothynge for if we beleue not the resurrection of the flesh that oure bodyes shoulde ryse agayne after thys i Cor. xv mortall lyfe we
fynd that might do and accomplishe that whyche that of Iesus Christ might not And if al they which haue bene offered according to the law might neuer sanctifie and make cleane the synners notwythstandynge they were ordeyned and commaunded of god but hath bene necessarie that Iesus Christe the soueraygne bishope hygh prieste according to the ordre of Melchiledecke should come offre his propre body Psal Cx. bloude in sacrifice for the redemption of our soules what may we hope of theÌ„ whyche the priestes do at thâ—se dayes in theyr masses of the whyche they haue no commaundemente of God Natha I donot wel vnderstand to what purpose thou speakest this Phylype Thou oughtest to vnderstand that the priestes do glory that in theyr masses they offre vnto God sacrifices for the redemption of oure soules and do auaunce them selues that that sacrifice which they offre is the propre bodie and bloude of Iesus Christe and if it so be theÌ„ Iesus Christ is no more the christ that is to saye the anoynted of God and the eternal priest after the ordre of Melchisedech but they be it theÌ„ selues seynge they attribute vnto them selues the office whych onely vnto hym apperteyneth and is propre vnto the Christe of God for it is not in the power of anye person to offre the sacrifice of reconsiliation Sacrifice of redemption and of redemption and to sacrifice Iesus Christe but vnto hym selfe whyche is the Christe of God whyche is offered hym selfe by the eternall spirite Natha Howe agreeth this then the priestes synge the Crede in theyr Masse and confesse in the same that they beleue in Iesus Christ but if it be as thou sayeste they do all cleane contrarye to that whyche they synge and denye by worckes Iesus Christe to be the very Christe the whyche they confesse wyth theyr mouthes Phylype There is nothynge more true and not they onelye but also all they that gyue fayeth vnto theyr doctrine and that haue recourse vnto theyr sacrifices and Masses for the remission of theyr synnes whether it be for the lyuynge or for the dead Nathana They be then christians wythout Christe Phylype They be not christians wythout Christ for a Christe they haue but wythout the true Christ they be Nata They haue theÌ„ a false Christ Phylype That is true and yet not contente wyth one but haue as manye as they haue priestes whych do cal them selues Chrystes attributynge vnto them selues onelye that whyche the prophete dyd vnderstande of all Psal Cv. the people of God sayinge touche not my Christes or myne anoynted they maye well be Christes but of the numbre of them of the whyche Christe dyd prophesye saying there Math xiiii shal come mani false prophets false christes Natha I woulde not haue thought that that onelye name of Christe hadde comprehended so manye thynges and had drawen such consequence after it I knowe well nowe by experience that manye do saye theyr crede whych vnderstande nothynge and do all contrarie lye them selues Phy. Thou mayste Iudge thy selfe and ther fore it is neadful that al these poyntes be wel diffined to be clearly vnderstande Natha It semeth me that thys poynte is wel inoughe diffined and largely Inoughe declared for thys tyme wherefore lette vs passe ouer forward Wherfore saiest thou his onlye sonne or hys sonne vnited it doeth seeme that thou wylt denye by thys particuler exclusiue that ther is no sonne of God but Iesus christ Phy. I do not denye but that all the elected be the chyldren of God but there is but one that is to saye Iesus whyche is hys true and natural chyld as we haue before expounded Natha How be we theÌ„ chyldren of god Phy. By adoption and not by nature Nathanaell What doest thou call adoption Phy. I call adoption when one doeth take a chylde whyche is not hys owne propre child procreate of hys owne bodie for hys own propre legitimate chylde geuinge vnto him al rightes titles as though he were trulie naturallie his childe not as thoughe he were bounde vnto it but doeth it of hys owne free goodnes and of the loue that he beareth vnto hym and euen so be we sonnes of God by Iesus Christe in whom God doeth loue vs adopte chose and receiue vs for hys chyldren therfore is the spirite of God called the spirite Rom. viii of adoption Natha Wherefore gyueste thou yet vnto hym thys title callynge hym oure Lorde Phy. Bycause he hath bought vs that we Cor. vi be hys and his subiectes and seruauntes and that full power is gyuen hym as well in heauen as in earth and that he is kynge prince Math ii xiii and Lorde of all creatures and the onely gouernour and maister the head of his church hathe power to gyue lawes ordinaunces Colo. i. ii vnto men for theyr saluation vnto the which all men muste be subiectes Natha I vnderstande wel nowe the sence of thys article and the principall poyntes whyche it doeth conteyne let vs therfore folowe the rest Phy. In asmuche as we haue determined to deuide thys parte as I dyd set it forthe in the begynnynge it shal be good as semeth me to make here oure fyrst reste diuision after let vs entre into the matter of the incarnation of Iesus Christe as I haue promised the. Natha I am of accorde in al that thou wylte albeit that me thynketh the tyme not longe that I am ready of myne own parte to heare al the daye longe if it were not to thine nuer greate payne and werines notwytstandinge I do not beleue by all that I caÌ„ perceyue that thys laboure and payne to be greuous vnto the but rather that thou doest it hauyng more regarde vnto me then vnto thy selfe for thou knoweste well that I am to small and little a vessell to receyue at once so muche of thys diuine licoure lyuelye water poured forth of the fountayne of the worde of God Phy. I woulde it were the pleasure of God that I myght fynde manye suche vessels that were so receiuable of thys worde of lyfe nor I do not this bycause I mistrust thy capacitie but to the ende that both the one and the other of vs may the better gather and sauour this breade of life which here is ministered to vs. Natha Thy reason is verye good lette vs therefore boeth go aboute our other busines that we may returne agayne the more fresh wyth the better courage In thys nexte dialoge shall be set forth the historie of Iesus Christe from the tyme of hys conception vnto hys ascention and shal entreate of the misterie of hys Incarnation and of oure redemption Nathanaell THou wouldest not beleue Phyllype how long I haue thoughte the time sens oure departynge for I haue taken so greate a taste and sauoure in that I haue herde of the heretofore that I thought I shoulde neuer se the time Inoughe to
to considre in what signification the holye scripture doeth vse it Natha That is that whych I do aske Phy. We do fynde hel in the vsage of the holye Gene. xliiii Esai xxiiii scriptures and principally in the old testament for the death for the graue and for the state and condition of them that be departed of the which al the scripture doth beare wytnes therfor do we cal it hel which is a word takē of latin doth signifie as much as a low inferior place bicause we do put the bodie in the graue within the earth lower thē our habitatiō Natha Is that the propre significatiō Phyly That is the fyrste that it doeth signifie in the scriptures Nata Is there thē other Phy. Yea but they do hange vpon the same For as the death and the graue is the ende cōsummation of man as concernynge thys worlde euen so hell is taken for the extreme daungers miseries dolors anguishes that man may suffer and by the which he is darkned or brought vnto death Nathanael Vnderstādeste thou none other thynge by hell Phylype It is also likewise takē sūtime for the paine dew for sinne for the Iudgemente and wrathe of God and for the bottome and mischiefe of all euyll thynges of all miseries and vnhappines and bycause 〈◊〉 xvi Math. xvi that in the death and in the graue there is no thynge but stynkynge infection darknes and perpetuall horror it is somtyme taken for to siguifie the state cōdicion and the place of the damned otherwyse called Gehenue bycause that theyr death is not vnto lyfe that they Luke xvi Marc. v do abyde in the same in perpetuall darkenes of the whyche the graue is theyr beginnyng Natha Accordynge to whyche of these significations ought we to vnderstāde that Iesus Christe is descended into hell Phy. Accordynge vnto all Natha Howe so Phy. Fyrste thou muste note that he doth not saye in the singuler numbre He is discended into hell as thoughe he dyd speake of a place certayne wherunto he was goone But in the plurell He is descended to the helles comprehendynge all that which he had sayed before He hath suffred vndre ponce Pilate crucified dead and buried Natha And did it not suffice to haue already sayed the same by other wordes for if discendyd into hels doeth signifie no further what nede was it to put to this article Phy. Albeit that it do comprehende al that whyche alreadye hath bene sayed yet is it not put to without cause for it doeth better open and declare that whiche hath bene sayed doeth also better declare vnto vs the vertue and efficatie of the death and passiō of our Lord Iesus Christ doeth gyue vs to vnderstād what condemnation he hath borne how farre the vertue of hys death hath extēded Natha Expounde the same alitle better vnto me by particulers Phi. When oure Lord Iesus Christe had suffered and endured so many outrages blasphemies as when he dyd sweate bloude and was ful of anguish in his Luke xxii Math. xvi soule euen vnto the death and was shamfullie hāged betwene theues as forsakē of God of al creaturs without helpe fauour or cōsolatiō and dyd yelde vp his spirite vpon the tree of the crosse where he was hanged bearing the curse Ire and furore of God which is the verye hell felynge in hym selfe the condempnation paines and sorowes which we had deserued for oure synnes then was he truly descended into hels whych had wened to haue deuoured him but they coulde not bicause he was wythout sinne Nathana Is he no otherwise discended into hel Phy. He was also discended whē he was put Ephe. iiii into the sepulchre is discended into the lowe partes of the earth as the Apostle doth saye Nathana Dyd not hys soule and hys spirite discend to the sayntes fathers whych were dead before hys commynge Phylyp Yes Natha Where were they Phy. In the bosom of Abraham Natha What place was that Phy. The place of reste and blessednes wher all they were receyned whiche were deade in that fayeth of Abraham whiche is the fayeth in oure Lorde Iesus Christe Natha Is that limbo wher they be depriued of all the Ioyes of Paradise Phy. I haue not reade in any place in all the holye scripture that maketh mention of anye such limbo Natha was it thē in purgatorie Phy. Iesus Christ descended wel into purgatorie when he dyd humble caste down hym selfe euen vnto the mooste bitter death of the crosse sheadynge hys precious bloude for to washe purge our synnes for the same dyd obteine remission and grace other purgatory doeth not the scripture knowe but that same whyche hath efficatie in vs by fayth whyche purifieth the hertes Natha Howe is he then descended to the fathers and where was the bosome of Abraham Phy. I haue sayed that hell signifieth also the estate and cōditiō of thē that be dead departed wherfore when Iesus Christe was deade and buried he was discēded to them that be dead and departed that is to saye that he is dead for them and hathe borne the paine that they hadde merited and deserued after suche sorte that the vertue force and efficatie of the deathe of Iesus is extended not onelye vnto them whyche were alyue but also vnto al thē whyche haue bene sēce Adam and were dead Gene. iii. in the fayeth of that promised seede vnto the whyche Iesus Christ hath bene made felow dyeinge as they and descendynge into the graue as they to the ende that they should be partakers of the resurrection and glorye of hym whyche is sauiour of the liuyng dead Nath. It seameth by thy wordes that thou doeste abolyshe boeth limbo and purgatorie Phy. God furbide that I should aboleish purgatorie for it is the same in the whych I haue all my hope wythout the whych I shoulde wholli dispaire of my saluatiō for I do know well that no poluted and vncleane thynge cā Cor. xv entre into the kyngdome of heauen except it be purged made cleane but in dede I know no other purgatorie but the bloude of Iesus The true purgatorie Christe nor yet ani fyre whiche hath power vertue to pourge our sinnes but that of hys holie spirite as for limbo I could neuer find anie in al the holie scripture I could neuer see so mani diuers estates of thē that be departed as the priests mōkes fain lodging some in paradice other in hell other in purgatorie other in limbo I do not find in the holi scriptur but of ii estates cōdicions the whiche oure Lorde Iesus Christ hath represēted and sette forthe vnto vs in the exemple of the Ryche man and Lazarus there is but one estate of the happie and blessed and another of the reproued Natha Vnto whych of those dyd Iesus Christe descende Phyly Vnto boeth but in diuers sorties he is discended to the
dampned vnhappye which be dead in vnbeleue when they haue felt that they were depriued of the merite of his death and passion and of the grace and saluation whyche he brought vnto hys elected when they felte the yre malediction curse of God agrauated and augmented alwaye more and more vpon them but he is discended vnto hys elected when that by hys diuine vertue he hathe made them to fele the vertue and efficatie of the death whyche he suffered for them and the fruite of hys passion wherefore I do conclude that they whych do beleue that there is a Limbo for the litle childreÌ„ that be dead borne and a purgatorye other then the bloud of Iesus for to purge the soules of the fayethfull departed do not beleue that Iesus Christe discended into hell and that hys vertu should be of such efficatie that it might come and exteÌ„d vnto the dead to theyr saluation for if they did perfectly beleue that they would haue no further care for the dead but would leaue them in the haÌ„des of Iesu christe whych is sauioure of the lyttle and greate of the lyuyng and deade and woulde not thinke that the dead had any more nede of them Na We haue taried inoughe vpoÌ„ this article but in dede it was necessarie to make it somthyng more cleare for the matter was verye darke but thou hast now so wel opened it that I am satisfied wherefore let vs come vnto thys article folowynge whych sayeth The thyrde daye he rose from the dead What is the sence The resurrection of that article Phy. The same whyche we haue all readye towched speakynge of the sepulchre of Iesus Christe and of the sygne of Ionas Natha Hath he abidden thre dayes and thre nightes in the earth as Ionas dyd in the bealye of the whale Phi. It was not neadful that he shuld be in the sepulchre thre nyghtes holly it was inoughe that he did rise agayne the thyrd day after he was dead as he hath done in dede Nathanaell Was that the thyrde daye when he did aryse Phy. Yea trulye for the daye that he did giue Math. xxvii Marc. xv Luke xxiii Iohn xvi Math. xxviii Iohn xx vp the spirite whych was the euenyng of the nyght before the Iewes Ester he was buried and that was the fyrste daye of the morrowe whyche was the daye of the feaste he was all the daye in the sepulchre Then vpon the daye foloweynge in the breake of the day verye tymelye he dyd aryse and that was the thyrde day as it doeth appeare by the Euangelistes Na. Wherfore is this article put to Phy. Bycause that all the other coulde lyttle serue vs wythout thys Natha Howe so Phy. Bycause that if Iesus Christe had not risen it shoulde haue bene an euident testimonie that death had vaynquished hym that hell shoulde haue swalowed hym as it byd the chyldren of Adam Then if he had bene vainquished and had not ouercome vaynquished i. Cor. xv and gotten the victorye he had not satisfied for vs but we shoulde haue bidden stil in our synnes and in death Natha The resurrection of Iesus Christe is then a certayne testimonie of hys vertue and a sure trust hope that we shal aryse agayne wyth hym Phyli That is the cause wherfore we beleue his resurrectioÌ„ wherefore he would testifie Math. xxviii Marc. xvi Luke xxiii Iohn xix oy so many sygnes apparitions beyng after hys resurrection xl dayes conuersaâ—nte wyth hys disciples shewynge hym selfe vnto theÌ„ in drinkinge eatinge speakinge and sufferyng to touch hys bodye and hys woundes the more plainly and assuredly to proue vnto theÌ„ the resurrection of hys bodye Natha We haue then inough of oure resurrection in hys but wherefore do we saye yet more He is gone vp into heauen when is he gone vp and in what fourme and maner 〈◊〉 asceÌ„tioÌ„ 〈◊〉 Math. xxviii Phylype Fortye dayes after hys resurrection when he hadde well approued hys saâ—â—ed resurrection he dyd brynge hys disciples vnto Marc. xvi the mountaygne of Oliues and froÌ„thense dyd mounte and go vp visiblye before them whyche dyd beholde hym goynge vp vnto a cloude dyd come betwexte hym and them whyche dyd cause them to loose the syghte of hym They had also the testimonie of the Angelles sayinge that he was goone vp into heauen Nathanaell Into what heaueÌ„ vnderstandest thou that he is goone vp for thou haste shew tâ— in the first article that ther be diuers maners Ephe. iiii of heauens Phylype The Apostle doeth saye that he is goone vp aboue all heauenes for to fulfyll and accomplyshe all thynges wherfore I do vnderstand that he is gone vp into the celestiall Timo. vi glory hygher then the visible heauen and hygher then all creatures into the inaccessible lyghte where is the habitation and seate of God out of all and all maner of corruption and mortalitie Nathanaell In what sence ought we then proprelye to vnderstand this ascention Phylype I vnderstande by the same that he hath taken hys corporall presence from here Iohn xvi beneth as he hadde before sayed vnto hys disciples and that he is goone vp verylye in bodye aboue all heauenes into the glorye maiesty of God his father as it shal be more declared anoue when we shall saye He is set downe vpon the ryght hande of God the father almyghty The ryghte hand of God Nath. What vnderstaÌ„deste thou by the right hand of God Phy. I do not vnderstand that God the father is set in a feate or throne that is visible and materiall as a terrenal kynge And Iesus Christ in another by hym as his sonne or as one of hys princes Natha Howe then Phy. It is a similitude taken of humaine thynges for to gyue vs to vnderstande that as a kyng or a prynce doeth make sitte down by hym and on hys ryght hande him whom he wyll moste honour and vnto the which he wyll gyue moste power and authoritie euen so we vnderstande by these wordes that Iesus Christe is set vp aboue all creatures and that he hathe power as well in heauen as in earth and doeth raygne wyth the father hauynge Math. xxviii equall power Lordship Natha And what doeth it serue vs to beleue knowe al these thynges and in howe many wayes maye we vse theÌ„ to oure furtheraunce and profitte Phyly In diuers but to the ende I maye the better shew the by ordre bycause there be manye goodlye poyntes worthy to be towched lett vs here make an ende of thys parte and in the other nexte we shall not treate of anye other matter but of thys whyche thou haste now set forth nor shal not declare any othere article before I shall haue declared vnto the what fruites thou maiest beare of these thynges whereof we haue spoken at thys presente and howe these thynges may be vsed and applied to oure profit Natha That wyll be a day that I hope