of S. Paul The chalice of benediction which wee do blesse is it not the communication of the bloud of Christ and the bread which wee breake is it not the participation of the body of our lord I answeare that our doctrine is not here denied but affirmed for the Apostle teacheth here importing withall by his manner of speach the doctrine to be so well and so commonly knowne that none can denie it he teacheth I say that the breade and the cuppe are the communication of the body and bloude of our lord The reason whereof is cleere because in those formes are exhibited reallie the body and the bloude of Christ Whereas in your sense there were no reall receauing giuing or participating of the body and bloud of Christ but of bakers breade and meere wine And therefore to the Apostle the Corinthians if they had bene of your Religion might haue answeared no it is not any communication participation or communion of bloude and flesh but of naturall meate and drinke If you stick at the word breade you are dull for the words annexed to it doe interprete fully what breade it is and before you haue the word applied and the sense of it inculcated in the Sixt of S. Iohn where our Sauiour saith the breade which I will giue is my flesh Io. 6. v. 51.32.58.48 my father giues you true bread from heauen I am the breade of life c. where I thinke you are not so seÌ„sles as to take the word breade for that which bakers make More ouer this flesh or body of Iesus Christ is in the forme of bread in the Church as it was allso in his owne haÌ„d wheÌ„ he gaue it uÌ„to his disciples aÌ„d therefore after the phrase of Scripture it is called breade Mar. 16. Act. 1. as Angells appearing in meÌ„s likenes are there called meÌ„ 30. Fourthlie whereas wee say that it is not necessary the publique seruice be said in the vulgar tongue You oppose those words of S. Paul If I pray in a tongue to wit 1. Cor. 14. v. 14. which I vnderstand not my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Answ The meaning is that I haue not in that case the benefit of profiting my soule or minde with contemplation of the thinge yet neuer the lesse my Spirit is eleuated and ascendeth vnto God which is the substance and essence of prayer and this is nothing against vs. You vrge againe if thou blesse in Spirit how shall he say amen which doth supplie the place of the vulgar v. 16. since he knoweth not what thou sayest Answ The meaning is if thou speake some praise of God the hearers not knowing whether it be good or bad he that supplies the place of the vulgar cannot say amen to it Neither is this against vs for our coÌ„mon prayers or liturgies are both knowne and approoued by the Church to whom this approbation doth belonge and this all do know and therefore the clarke or he that supplieth the place of vulgar may boudly sâ—â— Amen Moreouer the Apostle doth not censure as ill that blessing in Spirit which you do vrge but sayeth expresly that he doth giue thankes well which doth so v. 17. If you say the contrary theÌ„ you coÌ„tradict the scripture not wee De imputa iustitia nihil noruÌ„t VValdenses Luth. colâ—oq c. de Suermeris Coce l. 8. â— 4. 31. The fift place is to shewe by Scripture that iustifyiÌ„g faith is that speciall faith whereby you beleeue that your sinnes are all forgiuen and you iust by an extrinsecall imputation of the iustice inherent in Iesus Christ This which is the ground and soule of your Religion wee denie Your proofe is Abraham beleeued God and it was imputed vnto him to iustice Rom. 4.3 v. 16. And therefore of faith that according to grace the promise may be firme Answ This is nothing against vs nor for you for the question is of the Obiect of this faith whether it were the remission of sinnes to him that beleeued they were remitted as you interprete it From the 16. v. to the end or somthing els Reade further and you shall finde in the same Chapter that the Obiect or thing he beleeued was that God would make him the father of many Nations and that notwithstanding his owne age and the sterilitie of his wife God was able to performe this promise Of your Obiect there is not one word neither is it to be fouÌ„d any where in all the Bible The Obiect of Iustifying faith if you beleeue Scripture is the Incarnation the Passion Resurrection and other revealed Mysteries Who is he that ouercometh the world he that beleeueth that Iesus Christ is the sonne of God â— Io. 5. v. 5. Rom. 10.9 If thou confesse with thy mouth our lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him from the deade thou shalt be saued Without faith it is vnpossible to please God for Heb. 11.6 he that coÌ„meth to God must beleeue that he is and is a rewarder to them that seeke him This is the Obiect of iustifying faith and the second part you do not beleeue because it implieth a merite in the beleeuer 32. The sixt place is about communion of lay people in both kinds You would haue it a diuine precept for the lay people I admit a diuine precept for the Priests who do consecrate and denie that there is any such whereby the lay people are commanded to receaue the Sacrament in both kinds Your place is Drinke ye all of this Mat. 26.27 But this place doth not import a precept or commaund for the lay people to receaue the blood for the speach is not directed to the lay people but to the Apostles And the word all is referd to them and was verified by them This is manifest by the words of the Gospell He gaue to his Disciples and said take and eate ibid. v. 26.27.28 this is my body And taking the chalice he gaue thankes and gaue to them the same disciples saying drinke ye all of this for this is my bloode c. And S. Marke relating it saith and taking the chalice giuing thanks he gaue to them and they all dranke of it If all dranke of it theÌ„ by all the Apostles are meant onely for all men were not there neither haue all Christians drunke of it In this therefore you haue produced no diuine precept for all men in their owne persons to receaue the blood 33. The seaueÌ„th place is to prooue the Scripture to be iudge of CoÌ„trouersies aÌ„d sufficient of it selfe without helpe of TraditioÌ„ Wee hold the necessity of TraditioÌ„ too â— Tim. 3.16 The place is All scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the maÌ„ of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Answ This is not against vs wee graunt tath it is profitable Wee denie that it is
hunted after in the former booke but could not get tidings of in all the world before Luther I in the meane tyme will on further to looke out this Church of God But first I would haue you to note that as in the naturall bodie there are many superfluous materiall parts of flesh fatte and some other eauen in the hands eares and eies as you see in men that are grosse which parts though they be coherent now are not resumed all in the resurrection because they would extēd and increase the bodie vnto more then the iust bignes of the man and beyond the originall proportion of the soule So in this mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ are many parts which will not rise with it vnto glorie and therfore are multiplied aboue the number which is written in the booke of life yet being called as many are called fewe chosen for a tyme they doe beleeue but they fall againe before they die Another thing you may note if you please that as the naturall bodie receauing the sowle when the principall parts are prepared doth growe and flourish and afterwards looseth againe the exteriour beautie in ould age So the Church receaued the Spirit when by the instruction of the sonne of God the chiefe parts the Apostles were prepared and then did extend it selfe in bignes and flourished but in her ould age in the daies of Antichrist she will loose her exteriour beautie and maiestie and be greeuouslie afflicted and persecuted for a * The Church in the tyme of her extreame persecution will be visible for persecution it selfe is an euident argument of visibility as in England you see At the same tyme she will be allso Catholique and spred ouer the earth as S. Iohn telleth in the twentith Chapter of his reuelation where of the persecutors he saith they ascended vpon the breadth of the earth and compassed the campe of the saincts and the beloued cittie Vpon which words cleere enough in themselues S. Augustine in his bookes De cluitate Dei writeth thus They are not said to come into one place as though the campe of the Saincts or the beloued Cittie should be in some one place since this indeed is nothing but the Church of Christ spred ouer the whole world And therefore wheresoeuer this Church shall be then which shall be in all Nations for so much is insinuated by the latitude of the earth there shall be Gods beloued Cittie there shall she be beseiged by all her enimies for they allso shall be in all Nations with her So he li. 20. c. 11. Moreouer that extreme persecution of Antichrist shall be very short as enduring some three yeeres and a halfe which the Scripture allso hath declared He Antichrist shall thinke that he can change tymes and lawes and they shall be deliuered into his hāds euē to a tyme tymes ād halfe a tyme. Dan 7.25 Power was giuen to it the Beast to worke two ād fortie monethes Ap. 13.5 They shall tread vnder foote the holy Cittie two and fortie monthes Ap. 11.2 From the tyme when the Continuall Sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination shall be set vp 1290. Dayes Dan. 12.11 See allso Ap. 12. v. 6. 14. tyme as S. Iohn doth foretell But now to finde this Church THE SECOND CHAPTER The Catholique Church assigned 11. HAuing seene the picture of the Catholique Church as in Scripture it hath beene drawne by God himselfe it is not hard for him that will cast an eie vpon the world and compare this picture with the communities he finds there to discouer among all Churches and congregations which is the Catholique or to learne it if he will but aske the question of any man For all S. Aug. de vera relig c 7. and euen Heretiques ād Schismatiques as S. Augustine longe agoe did obserue when they talke not with those of their owne sect but with others do whether they will or no call no other Catholique but the Catholicke because they cannot otherwise be vnderstood vnles they designe her by that name which the whole world calles her by Men generally being demaunded which are Catholiques point at vs and being asked which Church is the Catholique do direct vnto that which is in cōmunion with the Roman See This was knowne to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Paul this was acknowledged to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Augugustine and S. Gregory and euer since and is now Aske all Christians such only excepted as your selues condemne for heretiques and they will tell you so Aske Iewes and Pagans and they will tell you this is the Church of Iesus Christ aske your fellowes White Cowell and such others and they will send you to this 12. If a man should haue come to Luther when he did looke round about for companie and found none of his opinion and should haue said vnto him Sir Luther in the Bible there is an ample description of a perperuall Catholique Church I pray you which is it that I may be Christian in communion of that Church Your Doctor for his hart could haue directed to no other then to that Congregation which then was in communion with the Bysshop of Rome For to you he could not haue directed him because poore men you were not in the world as yet with your Religion nor euer deserued the name of Catholique as in the former booke to your confusion hath beene seene To haue said that he a sole man was the Catholique Church which the Scripture speakes of had bene to multiplie himselfe ouer the world into many Nations and into millions of men at once To the Iewes or Pagans he could with no face haue sent him and had he done so they would haue giuen him the lie It rests therefore that Luther and so Caluin so Iewell must haue directed him to vs and haue tould him the Catholique Church is that which hath and still had communion with the Roman See 13. I knowe some of your fellowes would send a man to the Grecians and some further to the Aethiopians but these are not Protestants as the Grecians declare them selues and by the Aethiopians doctrine he may see that is not blind Neither hath the Grecian beleefe in those things wherein they differ from the Church of Rome euer bene in the generall communion of the Christian world and therefore Grecisme is not nor euer was Catholique and the same it is of Aethiopians and all others Another shift you haue and this is to say the Catholique Church is inuisible among the Romans the Grecians Aethiopians Germans and others but lies hid This would trouble the man surely for how should he be instructed by her and imbrace her communion vnles he could find her and how should he finde her if she did not appeare but were inuisible moreouer he would say that the Church which the Scripture hath described is there also declared to be perpetually visible with gates euer open the
Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.
Nouatus and such other found in ould nastie monuments If vppon her now for pittie you will pull the Waldesian habitte spokeÌ„ of in the former chapter the beggars coate I meane represeÌ„ting with partie coloured patches the peeces of her coÌ„stitution and lace it with the ragges you find in Illyricus it will be very trimme But how soeuer you may finde some ragges in Antiquitie it is still euident that after a busie search made by all your deuines into libraries and recordes you are not able to prudence a continuall succession of that kinde of men wherof you are or of that whereof VValdo was from waldo vpwardes to the Apostles I doe not saie a Catholique or vniuersall succession of them but a succession onlie though neuer so small you haue not in euery age a Nation nor one Diocese which were verie litle nor so much such is your beggarie as one man Much more vnpossible is it for you to produce a succession Catholique or vniuersall in that sort that in euerie age and euerie yeere since the Apostles it hath ben common to many Nations which is the condition of the true Church of God 9. You answeare againe and learnedlie as you thinke that in Fundamentall pointes the Romans were Protestant and therfore are well alleaged Are the negatiue propositions in the Bible Gods words aÌ„d de fide or wâ—ll you haue them all blotted out to satisfie the demaund though they were otherwise in not-Fundamentall Or as others cut out the distinction in Affirmatiues they were yours in Negatiues they were not VVhich distinction is laid in the way to catch woodcockes but hindereth not the course of our argument For the Roman Catholique holding those pointes which he doth is noe Protestant nor of the religion currant now a dayes among you And the Protestant is no Roman Catholique his Religion is not that which is currant in Italie in Spaine and other places vnited to the See of Rome wherfore in assigning Roman Catholiques you do not assigne a Protestant succession wheras the thing demaunded is a Protestant succession If I had ben to dispute with the VValdenses in Bohemia I would haue exacted the like proofe for the Religion currant among them that is as I haue tould you many tymes a companie of men of the religion currant now in England wherof some haue succeded others and this must haue bene euer since the Apostles daies if the successioÌ„ be continuall since that tyme. Wee doe not Demaund of you whether wee haue à succession in our Church that wee demaund of you is a succession of your owne of Protestantes not of Papistes of men professing the religion which you doe Shewe this succession produce your euidence to prooue that such men haue bene in all ages and then wee will examine your fundamentalles giuing you time till then for to thinke how many and which they be for assure your selues the common people doe perceaue your vnsufficiencie in answering to the demaund which you cannot flie without crossing and contradicting your owne selues For I aske you is a Papist a Protestant in religion you answeare no. I demaund againe giue me the Protestant succession the Church Protestant of former ages You answeare the Papistes succession was the Protestant succession and the Papisticall Church was the Church Protestant By which answeare graunting and affirming the Papisticall succession and Church to be the Protestant succession and Church you doe graunt and affirme a Papist to be a Protestant which before you had denied and still doe They see also that a Pelagian a Luciferian an Arian or any other hereticke may defend himselfe as you doe for each of them held the true religioÌ„ in part each held some affirmatiues and was negatiue as you speake in other thinges and each pretended that he did not mistake in fundamentalles 10. And wheras you say that you erre not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talles I answeare first that you speake at raÌ„dome aÌ„d by coÌ„iecture mearlie for to this daie you know not which all the fundamentalles are and therfore cannot be certaine whether you beleeue euerie one of them or doe not I answeare secondlie that the point of iustification is the ground and the soule of your religion and you mistake in that and contradict the scripture directlie in it and therefore erre fundamentallie You teach also that the Catholique Church may erre in matters of diuine faith which is a grosse fundamentall errour You denie the reall presence and holie sacrifice in the Masse which is likewise a fundamentall errour And by these and such like you are diuided from the Catholique and so fundamentallie different and diuided Neither is it any matter whether these and the like erroures be expressed in propositions affirmatiue or negatiue an Athyest by reason of one negation is of No Religion as they may be either way for by negatiue errours a man may be an Hereticke Turke Iew or Athiest according to the verities which in his errours he doth contradict To conclude it is cleare that these are shiftes to delaie tyme and to deceaue fooles for the thing wee demaund is a Catalogue of Protestant men such as in England you are of men holding those affirmatiues together with those negatiues which you do hould of men consenting with you in your religion and beleefe entirelie The like argument I would make against the Waldenses Hussites or any other for a man may beleeue the Trinity or the Creede with others and yet differ in ReligioÌ„ as we and you do whether the thinges be called fundamentall or be not called so for wee care not how you call theÌ„ of men which without anie tricke distinction paring of or adding to theÌ„ may flatlie be said to be of the religion ow curraÌ„t there in England of such finallie as being looked into thoroughlie and beheld round about are absolutlie Protestantes or men of your religion Produce the Catalogue of these men let your euidence come to light 11. Your men in the begining wanting companie and disliking the religion of the Waldenses and Hussittes would faine haue shaked handes with the Grecians and made an offer but they were instantlie refused and shaken of Censura Orientalis Ecclesiae as the world doth well know by their Censure in print euerie where You haue tould mee since and vnskillfullie that the Ethiopians are of your religion being demauÌ„ded proofe because it is against histories and against their Liturgies which are extant you are able to bring none neither can I imagine to what purpose you should runne thither vnles it were to get an out side which might keepe colour with the inside of your Church I remember your doctrine is that her soule is euer stained with actuall and Originall sinne and that all her actions are fouled in the same puddle to which doctrine of your owne I may adde by experieÌ„ce that she hath a foule mouth if you will needes haue all this walk in a black out side too you may goe
togeather from all places to discusse and to determine Is he moued with Antiquity the Reuerence of elder times is all with vs heere are Gregories and ChrysostoÌ„s and Augustines and Basils and Ephrems and Cyrills and Cyprians and Iustines and others innumerable Is he moued by Gods word it is flatly and vnansweareably on our side Atheists children can answere they erre so grosly against the light of nature The Iewes are forced to see with their owne eies the Prophecies of the Messias and his Kingdome fullfilled in Iesus Christ and his Church And this Church to be the Catholique yeauen that which is now and hath ben euer in the Communion of the Roman See is so cleere that denying of it all Histories all Bookes all Monuments all Memorie must be denied and nothing be confessed for true which euer yet hath beene on earth Denying of it you may allso denie that there was euer Iewish Nation or Roman Emperour or Heathen Idol you may as well deny that Rome Constantinople London are or euer were THE SIXT CHAPTER What meant by a Catholique 52. BEfore I goe on to your Obiections because the place is verie fitte and the thing necessarie to be obserued and borne in minde I will tell you what I meane by a Catholicke which question is here answeared without difficultie You haue seene the Catholique Church that is the congregation of Christians in communion at all tymes with the See of Rome by a Catholique man I meane one who beleeues the Creede of this Church one of this comunion aÌ„d euerie one which did heretofore embrace this communion was a Catholique so long as he did embrace it and died a Catholique if he died in it In the communion with this Church is included a Vnion with it which vnion is founded in a conformitie or vniformitie of faith and iudgment in diuine matters And this was in all those who did resolue their beleefe into the proposition or iudgment of this Church For he who submittes his iudgment whollie to the Church and beleeues as she telles him readie to beleeue more if she declare her selfe more fullie and to condemne all doctrine which she coÌ„demnes is vndiuided from the Church in iudgment and therefore vniforme 53. Hence it comes also that not onelie those who liued at one tyme were of our communion but such also as liued in diuers ages because the following age did receaue the doctrine and generall decrees of the precedeÌ„t beleeuing all which was then by the Church beleeued and condemning such opinions as they condemned By this meanes wee doe also communicate with them all as perfectlie in the disposition of our soule and redines of our vnderstanding as if wee had liued with them HeÌ„ce it is that wee admitte all the Councelles that were generallie receaued by the Church in their tyme and are sufficientlie moued therunto by the iudgmeÌ„t of the Church which then receaued them For wee resolue our iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and that is our rule vnder God who is the prime rule and highest Obiect of our faith You will be readie to make an other vse of some part of this discourse but you cannot for you make your owne choise of that which you beleeue and doe not submitte your iudgment to the iudgment of Gods Church Wee acknowledge diuine assistance in Church-proposition as I haue said before and this doth euery Catholique which is the reason why wee are all of one religion though wee liue at seuerall tymes Out of this comes the Catholique Vnion or vnitie which is most ample reaching into all Nations and through all tymes which kind of vnitie depending on the Churches mouth as on a subordinate cause and rule but principallie on the all-teaching Spiritte directing to reuealed veâ—ities as on an infinite and immoueable principle as hereafter I will shew is peculiar to the Church of God Aske any man of our religion on whose iudgment he relies in matters of faith and he will answeare that he relies on the iudgment of the Church and if you aske further on whom the whole Church of this age hath dependence for exterior proposition of matters of faith I answeare that this whole age resolues it selfe into the precedent age and that into the precedent and so vpwardes to the first which age did resolue it selfe into the Apostle proposition and they resolued their faith into the proposition of our Sauiour who came into the world to this purpose and he Cour Sauiour being the naturall sonne of God did cleerlie behould all truth with an infinite vnderstanding And there staies the resolution hauing made a full compasse and returned thether where this veritie first was For all truth is first in the diuine vnderstanding and thence reuealed manie wayes as it hath pleased that originall goodnes the eternall Father as by prophettes in ould tyme and after by his Sonne Iesus Christ who did instruct his Church and bequeathed an euerlasting assistance to beare in minde and to deliuer truelie this lesson to future ages Hence it came that this instruction or word which he put into her mouth hath not yet gotte out of it nor will to the worldes end 54 I had made a full point and was going on to the next Chapter but I remembred with whom I am now againe dealing and that I am to repeate the same things ouer more then once hauing for the same reason also contented my selfe with verie few things among infinite which might be said for our cause My chiefe intention therefore in this second booke was onelie to declare which companie of people in all the world is the Church Catholique or the Church answearing to Gods eternall decree declared by the Prophets And I haue prooued it to be that companie which is and hath bene euer in the coÌ„munion of the See of Rome This coÌ„panie of Beleeuers is the Church described in Gods word and no other companie distinct from this whatsoeuer it be is the Church there described In the proofe of this I haue taken such grouÌ„ds as are vndeniable as the knowne coÌ„munion of Nations the like being no where found the Testimonie of worlds of people the Confession of the most learned Aduersaries that wee haue or euer had since Luther came The Euidence of generall Councelles and the knowne Opposition of all confessed Heretiques in all tymes to this Church and to no other These grounds or arguments I take so farre only as they are manifestlie vndeniable and no further and to prooue that which your owne fellowes and your Masters doe yeeld vnto aÌ„d though most vnwillinglie haue confessed in their books That is I take them to declare that the Church in communion with the See of Rome is and hath bene euer the Church described by the Prophets and that no other answearable to that description is any where els to be found VVhen you answeare this Booke I will haue no other thing answeared in this place but this Keepe the question all
onelie who first made it it was not Oecumenicall The other Obediences of Gregorie and Bennet vnited them selues afterwards One in the 14. Session Act. Conc. the other in the 22. and the Church thus vnited a Pope was chosen so that the Councell now that is after the Vnion of all Obediences and Election of the Pope was Oecumenicall and therfore what was now decreed anew or approued though peÌ„ned before was therby made Oecumenicall If therefore you can make it euident that the Councell and Pope at this tyme did approoue the decree before made I will admitte that it is Oecumenicall and beleeue it Neither is there any reason I doe so before this appeares because decrees take their force from the approbation of those which haue authoritie and not allwayes from the writer or conceauer In Parlament a constitution may be conceaued in the lower howse and agreed oÌ„ there yet hath it not the true nature of a lawe till it passe the vpper howse and allso be confirmed by the Kinge So likewise this constitution conceaued and agreed on first by Iohns Obedience or adherents hath not the nature and force of an Oecumenicall decree till it passe the Generall Councell wherein the whole Church is vnited and allso be confirmed by the Pope 23. That wee may see further the weaknes of your argument since you cannot make it euident that the Canon made at Constance in the fourth Session was thus generallie receaued and approued by the Councell when all Obediences were vnited and there ratified by the Pope Let vs freelie and out of curtesie suppose it had bene so and that the Pope were bound to obay the decrees of such a Councell in the things which the canon speakes of and further that in power it were Superiour vnto the Pope all this would coÌ„sist with the words of the other Councell and both might be true These two propositions A Councell perfectlie Oecumenicall and by the power of the See Apostolique approoued I doe not atteÌ„d what the Councell was when the Canon was conceaued but what it was when wee suppose that the Canon was confirmed aÌ„d thereby representing the Church perfectlie and simpliciter as Philosophers speake is aboue the Pope A Councell vnperfectlie Oecumenicall as not being approoued by the Pope nor including his power and consequentlie not representing the Church perfectlie is not aboue the Pope These two propositions I say are not contradictorie nor Opposite and therfore if they were defined wee would beleeue them both 24. If you should aske in that case in whom or in what formallie that power greater theÌ„ the Popes were It would be answeared that it were not preciselie in the Pope nor preciselie in the rest but in the whole consisting of them all as the sowle is not preciselie in the heade nor preciselie in the rest of the bodie but in the whole and compleate bodie consisting of heade shoulders armes hart and other partes in regard whereof as when the bodie is takeÌ„ a sunder and deuided the heade from the shoulders the sowle is in neither of the partes euen so it would be said in that case that if you consider the Pope and the rest of the Councell a part this power were in neither because it is the act the forme and the vertue of the whole or of the Totalitie to speake as the Philosophers doe It would be further answered that such a full Councell had immediatelie the assistance of the All-teaching Spiritte and power to binde and loose and the like by vertue of our Sauiours promise yet so that the Pope alone had power too ouer each in the Church he being in S. Peeter made Pastor of them all In regard of which Institution of our Sauiour all Catholiques agree in this that the Pope is superior to euerie Bisshoppe in the Church 25. Hauing coÌ„pared the Pope being a parte of a full and perfect Oecumenicall CouÌ„cell to the whole bodie or CouÌ„cell wherein he was included as a part in the whole as the heade in a perfect and entire bodie it remaines now that wee deuide this Councell or perfect Bodie againe into two partes by taking the heade from the rest and compare these partes together In this diuision these parts are but two one is the Pope the other are the rest of the Councell which is vnperfect and therefore a parte being without the Pope as a mans bodie without a heade is but an vnperfect bodie and indeed but a part Of the couÌ„cell in this sense the Lateran speakes as the words themselues do conuince euidentlie and it is among all men out of question So that if it were an Oecumenicall decree the cleere sense would be that the Pope were aboue such a Councell and this wee would beleeue Neither were there any contradiction at all in this to saie that one part is in power aboue the other and that the whole is in power aboue either part Reade ouer your Logicke rules examine well the nature of a contradiction marke the termes and you will see that it is true which I doe saie 〈◊〉 you 〈…〉 with any â—â—â—â—â—culties out of Africke it will be easie for you to drowne theÌ„ heere And therefore I conclude the solution of this argument here hauing declared the two propositions which you apprehend as opposite decrees and incite eagerlie one against the other thereby to extenuate the authoritie of Generall Councells to be so farre from the rigour of contradiction that if they were both Decrees and both Oecumenicall of their owne accord they would come together and shake hands THE FIFT CHAPTER Of the Scripture 26. FRom Constance you come to Trent and accuse the Councell held there of two things touching the Scripture the one is addition to the Canon the other the authorization of the vulgar Latin Before I answere I must put you in minde That as you accuse vs for beleeuing some bookes in your iudgment not Canonicall to be the word of God so do others which are in a manner your Masters in Religion and had the first fruites of the protestant Spiritte accuse you for adding to Gods word the Epistle of S. Iames the Reuelation of S. Iohn and other partes whereunto you can giue no reasonable satisfaction vnles you acknowledge an errour in reprehending vs Negat â—â—â— Luth. in praef ad ep Iac. in 1. Pec. 1. Illiâ— praef in Iac. Kem. Exa sess 4 Magd. c. l. 2. c. 4. and subscribe to that which wee knowe to be the truth For I demaund how you prooue against Luther Kemnitius the Centurists and other Lutherans that the Epistle vnder the name of S. Iames is the word of God If you say that you knowe it by testimonie of Antiquitie they will answere that no such thing was then generallie beleeued Eusebius l â— Hist c. 25 â— Hiero. de â—e Viris ilâ—st in Iaâ—obe and will call to witnesse Eusebius S. Hierom and other auncient writers To answere that you know it by
you beleeue not this how do you beleeue the Reall Presence how do you beleeue the words of Iesus Christ saying of the Sacrament in his hād this is my body and of the Chalice Mat. 26. v. 27.28 this is my bloode if that thing were his body thē was his body in the shape of breade and at once in diuers places If you say that thing was not his body you contradict him you do not reallie beleeue the presence to the signes I doe not say to your imagination but to the signes this reallie you beleeue not 34. As for your oppositions they are sent backe with this answere that nature indeede cannot effect those things they are out of the spheare of her actiuitie but the power of God is infinite and the things in them selues include no contradiction wherefore God can effect them And being grounded in his word wee beleeue them without more adoe Man is not able with his wit to discouer all the wayes of God or to comprehend the whole obiect of his power Our knowledge wee gather from those fewe things wee see or perceaue by some exteriour sēse ād the perfection of allmightie God is infinitelie aboue all this He knoweth more then wee doe and being truth by nature cannot lie wherefore if he tell vs any thing though wee vnderstand it not wee must beleeue it Faith is an argumēt of things not appearing Heb. 11. that in the Deitie be three persons each distinct reallie from the other two yet all reallie the same God is a greate mysterie it is obscure our vnderstanding cannot reach it but faith giuing creditte vnto God who saith it is so doth beleeue it that our Sauiour is the secōd person in this holie Trinitie cōsubstātiall to God the Father is a Mysterie which nature wonders at yet faith beleeues this too because God who cannot deceaue or be deceaued doth auouch it Wee trust his knowledge and take his word Nature is Gods worke she hath not the perfection of her maker and therefore must not compare and equall her selfe with him in vnderstanding or cast an imputation of Errour on all that is not within the circuite of her acquaintaince God knowes more then she doth and therefore she may learne Schollers that are ingenuouse beleeue their Masters ād so come to knowledge whereas those who beleeue nothing are euer rude and vnlearned A Scholler heareth his Master say the Sūne is bigger then the Earth and beleeuing falls to learne the demonstration The clowne takes measure of the obiect with his eies Stellat primae magnitudinis cēties septuagies maiores terrâ asserūt Astronomi and esteeming it no bigger then the Cheese he cutte yesterdaie when he came from plough will not beleeue the philosophers nor the Mathematicians nor all the bookes in the world before his owne eies not he no that he won not Wee are in the Schoole of Religion our Professors and Instructors are the Pastors vnder our great Master Iesus Christ who cleerly doth see the truth of all he doth auouch You rudely take measure of things as in your sillie imagination they appeare making sensible things there or the short knowledge you haue of them the rule and compasse of all Being so denying in effect that God is able to doe any thing further then you can direct him as if in your heade were as much Art as God hath and your knowledge the full compasse and direction of Gods omnipotence 35. But what is the thing you stumble at Substance of it selfe is not determined to place it hath this determinatiō by accidents by Quantitie Localitie Vbication If God bestowe on it supernaturallie two Sacramentall Vbications at once it is at once in two places Sacramentallie if a thousand it is in a thousand places Sacramētall Existencie whatsoeuer it be called as Vbicatiō Presence or by what other name you will is an Accident and this Accident is the formall reason or cause of being present vnder the dimensiōs in the roome of Breade It is supernaturall to the body and God hath power to produce many of these at once 36. You replie that the very same thing cannot without contradiction be at once present in many dimensions without being deuided This is false the thing may haue indiuiduation or vnitie in it selfe and by it selfe and yet be in many dimensiōs too The soule of man is one and indiuisible and yet in the dimensions of all the members of the body That which is in the heade is in the feete not a peece for the soule hath no peeces it is indiuisible but it is all in each part God is heere and in heauen too and yet not deuided though betwixt this place and heauen there be many other things 37. Againe you replie that the same bodie cannot be at once in many mouthes But why not if it be at once in many dimensions The foule an indiuisible thing is naturallie at once in many members it is at once in the heade hands feete fingers and toes and in each member all ād this without any contradictiō or diuision why thē may not God whose power is infinite supernaturallie put one and the same Bodie at once in many mouthes It is no contradiction He may doe it Measure not his power by your witte The thing may be aboue your conceipt no meruaile it is supernaturall The existence of the sowle in many members all is naturall Tell me first how this is done It is in the heade and in the feete yet hath no distance in it selfe It is in manie fingers yet one It is in euerie part of an extended bodie and yet not extended it is in the hart and in the sides in the tongue and in the mouth that is round aboute it it is in the heade that doth compasse the braine and it is within the braine all vnles in your braine peraduenture it be not Shall I now argue out of this that it is within and without and round aboute it selfe if I meant to trouble an vnlearned reader and turne his braine as you doe I would When you haue made him vnderstād these things touching the naturall existence of his sowle he will be able to answere all that you can saie touching the supernaturall existence of the bodie of Iesus Christ in many mouthes and if he doth not yet vnderstand that being naturall no maruaile if he doth not vnderstand this Mysterie it being supernaturall 38. The other peece of your difficultie is that a bodie is naturallie extended and a mās bodie fills a greate place therefore it cannot be within that little roome I answere that substance of it selfe fills no place but by an Accident called Situall extension or Localitie as by it selfe it is not visible but by ā Accidēt Colour These Accidēts are distinct from the Substance they are not Substance If God take away the Colour or will not let it mooue the eie the substance is not seene if God take away the Localitie
is not in the a mouthes of the faithfull that b thing is not in the forme of breade Iudas did not c receaue the body but onely a peece of breade That in the Chalice was neuer d in our Sauiours side The body which the Sages worshipped is not oÌ„ the e Altar The bodie of Christ is not f heere on earth nor in the dimensions wee do see touch and receaue Christ is not g Sacrificed on the Altar by the Priest The humanitie of Christ is not on the h Altar Compare it 48. Fiftly it being the same bodie which is in heauen Christ I say being in the Eucharist aÌ„d the Fathers professing this it followeth that he is there allso in the Eucharist to be adored and this the Fathers allso did acknowledge you remember what I repeated euen now out of S. Chrysostome take more out of others S. Gregorie saith of his sister Gorgonia S Greg. Naz. orat 11. She prostrateth her selfe with faith before the Altar and with a greate crie calleth on him who is 1 worshippeed on it the said Altar You must obserue heere that S. Gregorie doth not onely declare the action of his Sister but allso the Custome of the primitiue Church in these words who is worshipped on it and then you will see that Christians in those dayes did worshippe our Sauiour on the Altar S. Augustine S. Aug in â—sal 98. Our Sauiour tooke flesh of the virgin Marie aÌ„d because he walked heere in that flesh and hath giuen vs that flesh to be eaten to Saluation and no man eateth that flesh vnles he first adore 2 it behold wee haue found our in what manner such a foote-stoole of our Lords feete his flesh may be adored and how that wee doe not sinne by adoring it Id. Ep. 120. c. 27. but wee sinne by not adoring it The rich come indeed to the table they eate and adore but are not filled Sainct Ambrose By the foote stoole vnderstand the earth S. Ambr. l. 3. de sp s c. 12 by the earth the flesh of Christ which yeauen at this day wee 3 adore in the mysteries and which the Apostles did adore in our Lord Iesus Christ Theodoret Theodor. Dial 2. The mysticall signes are vnderstood to be that they are made by consecration vzt the bodie and blood of Christ and they are beleeued and 4 adored as being that they are beleeued to be O most diuine S. Dionys Eccl. Hierarch c. 3. De lib ist autho vide Baron a. 109. Mart. Delr Vindic. Areopagit Gualt Chron. c. 28 secu 1. ver 1 aÌ„d holie Sacrifice open those mysticall and signifying veiles wherewith thou art couered shewe thy selfe cleerely vnto vs and 5 replenish our spirituall eies with thy singular and reueiled brightnes 49. The Protestant Opinion 1 No bodie is worshipped on the Alter the flesh of Christ in the 2 Sacrament is not to be adored It is not to be adored in the 3 Mysteries the Sacrament is 4 not adored there is no bodie in the Eucharist or vnder those signes that can heare or 5 is to be prayed vnto Compare 50. Sixtlie the Fathers say the Bodie of Iesus Christ is heere immolated after aÌ„ vnbloodie maÌ„ner that this vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the ChristiaÌ„s is in substaÌ„ce the bodie of Christ that it is the host which was offered oÌ„ the Crosse and the price of our redemption which things agree no more to bakers breade then adoration and the rest whereof I haue spoken before but onelie to the true bodie of Iesus Christ S. Ignat. Ep ad Smyr ap Theod. dial 3. S. Chrys or 17. in Ep. Hebr. They the Simonians and Saturnians old Hereticks admit not Eucharists a and Oblations because they do not confesse the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Sauiour which suffered for our sinnes Wee do still offer the same not another now but euer the same and for this reason the Sacrifice is one as being offered in b many places it is one bodie not many bodies Ibid. so allso the sacrifice is one It is our high Priest who hath offered the hoast which doth cleanse vs and wee allso now do offerre the same which was then offerred â—d hom 51. â— Mat. â—o ad pop â—ntioch Cyr. Aâ—â— declar â—nat 11. which cannot be consumed Let vs heare and tremble he Christ hath put himselfe c immolated before vs. wee celebrate in the Church the holie quickning and d vnbloodie Sacrifice beleeuing not that that which is shewed is the bodie of some common man like vs and his blood but wee receaue it rather as the life giuing Words owne flesh and blood â—onc Nic â—ct Vatic â—p de diâ—na mens â—c testim â—oscunt â—colamp â—uin â—quin â—blit â—e Bell. l â—e Sa. â— c. 10. In the diuine table let vs not abase our thoughts to consider the breade and cuppe which is set there vppon but rather erecting our minde and fixing it on high let vs by faith vnderstand that there is present vppon that holie e table the lambe of God that taketh away the sinnes of the world who is offered in Sacrifice by the Priest without slaughtering and wee verilie receauing his bodie and blood let vs beleeue that these things are the pledges of our Saluation and resurrection This hoste doth singularlie preserue the soule from eternall damnation which hoste doth repaire vnto vs by mysterie that death of the onely begotten S. Greg. l. 4 Dial. c. 58. Pro nobis ITERVM in hoc mysterio sacra Oblationis immolatur who rising from the deade now dieth not yet liuing in himselfe immortallie and incorruptiblie he is againe Sacrificed for vs in this mysterie of the holie Oblation Hether appertaines that which S. Augustine writeth of his mother a good Christian woman of the Religion then common that departing out of this world she desired memorie to be made of her at the Altar S. Aug. 9. Confes â—â— 13. from g whence she knewe the holie Sacrifice to be dispenced wherewith the inditement against vs was blotted out Then he commendes her sowle to the praiers of such as reade his Booke Obserue what and where this thing was it was the victime or Sacrifice wherewith the ransome was paid for our sinnes this is not bread I trow and this was on the Altar and therehence dispenced as you heard from S. Augustines mouth And there adored in the mysteries as you heard before Optat. l. 6. Wherevppon wee find the Altar allso called the seate of the body and blood of our Lord. Hether also doth appertaine that which wee finde in Antiquitie about offering sacrifice for the deade which you may reade ar your leisure in others for I haue ben alreadie to long in this 51. The Protestant opinion no Eucharisticall a Oblation is to be admitted it is not the flesh of Christ that suffered for vs. The sacrifice of the bodie of Christ is not offered in b many places Christ is noe more c