this law had bene most vnmercifull and most cruell and sauage tyrants that wrote their decrees with the blood of soules and so we read in one of the Sermons Ad fratres in Heremo clamant quotidiè defuncti qui iacent in tormentis Serm. 44. clamant pauci sunt qui respondeant vlulant non est qui consoletureos ô quà m grandis crudelitas fratres mei ô quà m grandis inhumanitas clamant ad nos quotidiè nec eis subuenire curamus ô verè magna inhumanitas The dead that lie in torments cry dayly they cry and few there are that answere they howle and there is none to comfort them oh how great cruelty is this my brethren oh how great inhumanitie they cry to vs dayly and we haue no care to helpe them or verily great inhumanitie Farre was this inhumanitie from Cyprian and the other good bishops of Africke and therefore farre were they from beleeuing that praying and sacrificing did either helpe or hurt their dead brethren Moreouer Lib. 4. epist 5. we must vnderstand that the commemoration of the dead was celebrated but once a yeere so saith Cyprian of the Martyrs and so saith Tertullian of them that were no Martyrs neither is it like that the memory of any Christian had moe dayes bequeathed vnto it Lib. decor milit then the memory of a Martyr now I beseech you consider what humanitie or charitie this was to releeue our brethren that were broiled and scorched in extreame torments but once a yeere and to leaue them to their clamant quotidiè all the yeere after may not a purgatory-monger cry out here to ô quà m grandis crudelitas ô verè magna inhumanitas Verely I must thinke so till I be better informed and this is yet further strengthened in that these anniuersary dayes were celebrated festiually cum ingenti letitia with great ioy for had they beleeued that the soules of the brethren rested not blessedly from their labours as the spirit saith Apoc. 14.13 but were tormented miserably in purgatory as your Papist saith verely these dayes had bene dayes of fasting and mourning not dayes of feasting and reioycing I could obserue further that oblatio or deprecatio or facrificium pro dormitione importeth not releeuing of soules but a thankefull remembrance to God for the quiet and Christian departure of our brother with a commemoration thereof to the profit and comfort of the liuing but this that hath bene sayd is sufficient to shew the innocencie of Cyprians riches from these popish abuses Now let vs consider a little before of Austines fourth place for the third is sensibly false confuted as you heard in the old Liturgies by Austine himselfe in the first place where he saith that wee should pray for all communicated soules and in the last two where he saith that sacrifice is offered Pro baptizatis defunctis omnibus Cap. cum Marthae For all deceased after baptisme for all that are dead after baptisme Now then touching the distinction of soules which this last place doth afford vs it is found long agoe to want a legge and so to bee lame and imperfect for Pope Innocent the third will needes haue it goe vpon foure legges namely a very good one a very bad one an indifferent good one and an indifferent bad one and Austine himselfe graunts as much in his bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. ca. 24. cap. 110. Lib. 4. dist 40. and in his Enchiridion as the master of Sentences hath cited him so by this reckoning we must find out another purgatorie for indifferent good soules for seeing suffrages auaile them ad expiationem to expiation as Innocentius saith or as Lumbard mends the matter ad plenam absolutionem to full absolution they must haue a new purgatorie needs for the old will receiue none but such as haue filth to purge and are stayed by some inquinament or other from entring into heauen and Austine tels vs that all good soules departed haue ioy and all euill soules torments In Ioh. tract 49. I doubt your papist will be fowly troubled before he shew vs what ioy soules haue in purgatory and here obserue further that the soules which papists send to purgatorie though they be not valdè malae yet they bee malae in Austines opinion whereof it followeth that at the generall resurrection their torments wil be more grieuous Habent omnes animae cum de saeculo exierint diuersas receptiones suas habent gaudium boni mali tormenta sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio bonorum gaudium amplius erit malorū tormenta grauiora quādo cum corpore torquebuntur All soules after they goe out of the world haue diuers rewards the good haue ioy the bad torments but whē the resurection shal come the ioy of the good shall be greater and the torments of the bad more grieuous when they shall be tormēted in their bodies This wil hardly agree with the popish purgatorie which is said to be the high way to heauen not to hell againe it being graunted that non valdè malae be malae not very euill be euill Notwithstanding it will follow likewise that they must continue euill still and so neuer become good that so they may flit from purgatory to heauen for there the tree must lie saith the wise man where it falleth Eccles 11.3 Serm. 49. ex paruis which place Ierome expoundeth of the immutabilitie of the soule after this life either in good or euill and so doth Barnard in one of his Sermons but admit the soule may be changed and be made a good soule of an euil soule now consider what it is that workes this change whether our suffrages or the fire of purgatory suffrages worke no more than we haue merited in our life time as we haue seene before hauing merits in our life time we haue our quietus est in our life time and so purgatory and suffrages are both discharged as for the fire of purgatorie Bellar. depurg lib. 2. cap. 6. it is the same with the fire of hell Theologi ferè omnes docent eodem igne torqueri damnatos animas purgatorij Now if this fire haue power in purgatory so to burne away sinne that it purifieth an euill soule and changeth it from euill to good it would bee knowen why the same fire in hell doth not change soules from valde malae to non valde malae by the like consumption of sinne and so bring them on from hell to purgatory and from thence to heauen if it be said that purgatory fire takes away sinne not by way of purification but by way of satisfaction though this blasphemie be sufficiently confuted by the Prophet Esay Cap. 53.5 who assureth vs that the chasticement of our peace fell vpon Christ and that we are heated by his stripes yet forasmuch ar mortall sinne in his owne nature is not infinitely more punishable than veniall it wil
euangelium demonstrat inferos intelligimus nouissimum quadrantem modicum delictum mora resurrectionis illic luendū interpretamur nemo dubitauit animam aliquid pensare penes inferos salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnem quoque When we vnderstand by the prison which the Gospell speaketh of hell interpret the last farthing a small sin to be done away by the delaying of the resurrection no man will doubt that the soule doth pay something in hell leauing the rest to be fulfilled at the resurrection by the flesh also Here we finde somewhat like purgatorie though I dare not say it is the same but let it be so if you will Now see what followeth in the same place immediately Hoc Paracletus frequentissimè commendauit si quis sermones eius ex agnitione charismatum promissorum admiserit This the Paraclete hath often commended if a man admit his saying by acknowledging the promised graces Where you may learne that doctrine was knockt into Tertullians head by his familiar that is by the Paraclete of Montanus Yea but why dare you not say that this prison is Purgatorie doe you aske why Marry the verie wordes make me to stand doubtfull namely per carnem quoque by the flesh also which to my vnderstanding import that the soule only must not feele smart but caro quoque the flesh also and good reason it should be so for if nothing can enter into the kingdome of heauen before it bee purified and wee know that the modica delicta small sinnes as well as other capitall sins taint the body as well as the soule wee must needes deuise a Purificatorie for the one as well as a Purgatorie for the other and so hold with Tertullian that the soule before the resurrection shall suffer per se by it selfe and after the resurrection per carnem quoque else all is marred Robert Bellarmine the new Cardinall saw this place of Tertullian I dare say for him yet he passeth it ouer slightly citeth another place for purgatory out of the same booke Ille id est angelus executionis te in carcerem mandet infernum Bellar. de purg lib. 1. cap. 4. cap. 6. vnde non dimittaris nisi modico quoque delicto mora resurrectionis expenso He that is to say the Angel of execution shall cast thee into infernall prison whence thou shalt not come out till euery little sinne be paid for by the delay of the resurrection This place he cites in two seuerall places and giues vs a speciall note to carry away with vs Nota solum esse manendum in carcere purgatorij ad summū vsque ad resurrectionē But alas good father Robert the other place marres the fashion of this note for it addes Salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnē quoque which giueth vs a new note that both soule and body must likewise suffer in this infernall prison after the resurretion I doubt when all is come to all this prison will prooue to be hell not purgatory yet such a hell as the millinarie heresie dreamed to be temporall not eternall wherefore I hope your papist will no more seeke the beleefe and practise of the Church in Tertullian Ierom contra Heluid who was not of the Church nor looke any more in Tertullians mouth for his age telling vs that he liued neere vnto the Apostles till he can proue his doctrine to be apostolicall The names of Epiphanius Ambrose Austine and Chrysostome are repeated heere for a shew but you haue heard what priuate conference I had with them whereunto adde that their witnesse being single men cannot iustly be accepted for a publike record of religion whereunto Luther of any other seruant of God may not oppose himselfe they liued in a manner altogether they could not see ouer farre either before or behind or about them neither is it conuenient that wee should make an idoll of mans authoritie a great sort of fathers agree that Elias shall come before the last day Mat. 17.12 yet I had rather beleeue Christ that saith Elias is come already many of the fathers say the wicked a thousand yeres after domes day Lib. 2. cap. 39. 40. shal be saued yet by your leaue I had rather say otherwise Irenaeus held that Christ was nere fiftie yeres old when he was put to death and proued it by the common consent of all the Bishops of Asia that learned it of S. Iohn yet may we not beleeue that this was then beleeued through the vniuersall Church Tertullian in his Apologie for the Christian Churches of his time saith that the soule cannot suffer any thing Sine stabili materia id est earne Yet may we not beleeue that Christians beleeued so through the world The same father saith in the same Apologie that Christians did thē publikely pray Pro mora finis yet were it hard to say after him Apoc. 22.20 that the whole Church praied against the appearing of Christ in the clouds to vanquish death and to accomplish their redemption S. Iohn prayed Come Lord Iesu come quickely And therefore I dare not say the Church euer prayed Stay Lord Iesu and come slowly Howbeit let the Catholike fathers haue all the credite honor that bare men be capable of we will not stand against it but to throw down so many kingdoms so many dukedoms so many flourishing Common-weales so many free cities Churches as if the bare affirmation of one man did ouerrule them it is too much indignitie if Luthers bare affirmation be so mightie in operation let not your Papist his companions call any more for miracles to confirme his vocation but if it be the breath of Gods mouth that began in him in his time more powerfully to consume Antichrist then in former ages thē feare friend Papist I say feare the reuenging hand of God who wil not suffer his power to be derided The Dialogue Sectio XI Purgatorie ALl the proofes before alleaged for prayer for the dead may as well serue for the proofe of Purgatorie for such is the relation betweene the one and the other as a This is but a conceit looke the answere they cannot be separated For why doe wee pray for the dead the answere is made by S. Chrysostome that b Some prayd to that ende without warrant and some to other endes c. as shall appeare they may attaine to rest that they may find the iudge fauourable whereof it followeth that they are in a place where they want rest where they haue néed of refreshing yet I will alleage some few places for the peculiar proofe thereof Saint Austine expounding the place of Saint Paul the third to the Corinths if any man shall build vpon this foundation c. saith thus c These places are not Austines many there be that by misunderstanding this place doe deceiue themselues with a false securitie beléeuing that if they doe build vpon the
long agoe out of Gardiner Tresham Chedsey and Hardings hands who were farre better able to hold him than our wandring Papists be at this day and therefore this is none of those inanswerable proofes he hath taken vpon him to alleage and Saint Ambroses Faith or Opinion in this point is not yet found to be Papisticall The Dialogue Sectio XVI EPiphanius This ancient Father after a large discourse made for the Catholicke exposition of diuers places of Scripture peruerted by Arius and other Heretickes who turned all things contrary to their owne reason and vnderstanding into Allegories and figuratiue spéeches concludeth that a Christian must beléeue many things beyond the comprehension of humane reason for proofe hereof he sheweth that we must beléeue that man was made according to the Image of God because it is the word of God and not to turne it into an allegoricall sense because we cannot comprehend what it is wherein this similitude doth consist which is neither in the bodie nor in the soule nor in vertue nor in baptisme Then he procéedeth vnto another like instance Et quot sunt quae similia sunt saith he videmus enim quòd accepit saluator in manus suas veluti euangeliū habet quod surrexit in coena accepit hac vbi gratias egisset dixit hoc meū est hoc hoc videmus quòd non aequale est neque simile non imagini in carne non inuisibili deitati non lineamentis membrorum hoc enim est rotunda figurae insensibile quantum ad potentiam voluit per gratiam dicere hoc meum est hoc hoc nemo non fidem habet sermoni qui enim non credit esse ipsum verum sicut dixit is excidit à gratia salute a this is a very homely translation looke the answere And how many like examples are there saith he for we see that our Sauiour did take into his handes as it is in the Gospell that hée rose vp at supper and when he had giuen thankes he sayd this is my bodie and so forth and we see that it is not equall nor like vnto a fleshly bodie nor vnto the inuisible deitie neither hath it the lineaments of the members of a bodie for that is of a round figure and impossible to bée discerned of vs yet it pleased him to say through grace this is my bodie and so forth and there is no man which beléeueth it not for who so beléeueth not that it is he according as he hath said is fallen away frō grace saluation Thus farre this ancient Father who b So did many an hereticke and scismaticke as well as Epipharius liued in Palestine 1200. yéeres ago out of which words being considered with the scope of the discourse going before and following after from the words Maxima me subijt admiratio c. vnto these words fabula est de caetero ipsa veritas omnia allegoricè dicuntur We may collect diuers good Lessons to the purpose in hand first that a Catholicke man must beléeue many places of Scripture to be c So many be true in a figuratiue sense and so is this for one true being taken in the literall sense although it be aboue the comprehension of humane reason Secondly that in the place of Scripture last rehearsed there is something beyond the comprehension of mans reason which notwithstanding must be beléeued and not turned into an allegorie d That is such a figuratiue sense as is allegoricall For Epiphanius here speakes onely against allegories and no other figure or figuratiue sense which I do ground vpō these words Et quot sunt quae similia sunt and how many like examples may we find If I do inferre or alleage any thing amisse reprooue me if not let vs procéed Libro Anacoratus circa medium Pro. Epiphanius in that place inueigheth against Arius and Origen as well for interpreting things literally which are to be vnderstood figuratiuely as he doth for interpreting things figuratiuely which are to be vnderstood literally and therefore if you doe interpret these words this is my bodie literally whereas it is to bee vnderstood figuratiuely he inueigheth against you and not against mee Pap. True it is that Epiphanius doth reprooue as well the literall as the figuratiue interpretation but who so shall read the discourse with indifferencie shall finde that the examples of the blessed Sacrament and of the similitude betwéene man and the Image of God are produced and vrged onely to prooue that many places must be vnderstood literally and not turned into allegories and e Epiphanius speakes not here against any other figures but allogories figures because we cannot comprehend how they can be true in the literall signification for first he inueigheth against Origen for interpreting many things that are spoken in the scriptures concerning paradise which ought to be vnderstood literally into an allegorical interpretation then hee produceth those two examples to prooue that many thinges in scripture must be f And not turned into allegories but other figures cannot be auoided no not in the Sacrament beléeued although we be not able to comprehend how they can be true and so returneth to the prosecution of his argument against Origen concerning his deniall of a terrestriall Paradise and his turning of all things thereof spoken into allegories but this I referre to the censure of the iudiciall Reader and will procéede in that you haue not excepted against to wit that there is something in the blessed sacrament which we must beleue although it be incōprehēsible desiring to learn of you whether it bée a thing incomprehensible that the bread should bee a figure of Christs bodie or what other incomprehensible matter you doe find therein Pro. The inuisible operation of the holy Ghost in the Sacrament is a thing incōprehensible Pa. You must not so escape for the thing that this Father noteth to be incomprehensible is that whereas our Sauiour sayd it is his bodie which must be g It is true as the truth meant it true because the truth hath spoken it yet it is not like vnto a naturall bodie but of a round forme c. Now I will learne of you if it be not Christs true bodie but a figure and signification thereof what wonder h But it is incomprehensible how it should be so powerfull a figure or incomprehensible matter is there that the Sacrament being a figure of Christs bodie should neuerthelesse be of a round forme and not like vnto a naturall bodie The Answere ANother ancient Father is brought to speake for transubstantiation whether he will or no and his testimonie is so tediously dilated with multitude of words and false translations and blinde lessons that it wearieth me to looke them ouer yet may I not suffer such loquacitie to triumph against the truth Ambrose is raised as it were from the dead leading Saint Austine in a
string and carrying the vniuersall Church vpon his backe as though his words had neuer been nor could be answered and this facing may become a Papist reasonably well but when he brings in Ephanius with a wrong translation to second the matter whose testimonie hath ben often answered and the edge point of it turned long agoe to the very throte and bowels of transubstantiation I may truely say of him as the wise man doth of vnaduised pratlers Prou. 29.20 Cap. 26.12 namely that there is more hope of a foole than of him Epiphanius saith Et accepit haec And hee tooke these speaking plurally of many round cakes or peeces of bread which after hee cals hoc hoc this and this more distinctlyt his our translator cleane omitteth and englisheth hoc est meum hoc hoc this is mine and this and this this is my bodie and so forth Againe hoc est rotundae figurae insensibile quantum ad potentiam this is of a round figure insensible he translateth that is of a round figure and impossible to be discerned of vs. And againe qui non credit esse ipsum verum hee that beleeueth not that it is true Hee translateth thus who so beleeueth not that it is hee whereas ipsum verum agreeth grammatically with sermonem immediately before These forgeries bee verie materiall for when Epiphanius saith hoc meum est hoc hoc as of three round cakes wherof euerie one seuerally and separately is sayd to bee the bodie of Christ verily we must either admit a new trinitie in vnitie whereof euerie one seuerally is the bodie of Christ and yet all three but one bodie or else we cannot hold transubstantiation it will not be so hard a matter to exemplifie the mysterie of the Trinitie which is beyond all example if hoc hoc hoc be a trinitie in vnitie Secondly when Epiphanius saith that the round cake is without sense and powerlesse for so wee are taught to translate it by opposition following in these words Dominum verò nostrum nouimus totum sensum totum sensitiuum c. Wee know that our Lord is all sense and all sensitiue We see plainely that it cannot be sayd of the bodie of Christ simply and absolutely vnlesse we imagine the bodie of Christ to be senselesse and powerlesse Lastly when Epiphanius saith that wee must beleeue the words of Christ to be true as hee spake them we may not thinke that he vnderstood by ipsum verum verie Christ himselfe bodie blood and all as this man translateth in fauor of the popish single sacrilegious communion for that 's not sicut dixit as any man may easily perceiue The Counsell of Trent decreeth thus Sess 13. cap. 3. Si quis negauerit totum integrum Christum omnium gratiarum fontem authorem sub vna panis specie sumi anathema sit If any man shall denie that whole Christ and the author and fountaine of all graces is contained vnder the onely forme of bread let him be accursed But I beseech you tell vs by what wordes this strange consecration is made hoc est corpus meum makes but the bodie that is broken and bloud is not broken but shed Againe hic est sanguis meus makes but the blood that is shed and the bodie is not shed but broken Verily our Sauiour himselfe when he gaue bread gaue his bodie and not blood for that he gaue after supper when he took the cup Luk. 22 20. and if he gaue integrum Christum whole Christ when he gaue bread then he gaue nothing when he gaue the cup and therefore these good fellowes had need take heede they inuolue not the Sonne of God himselfe within their 1. Cor. 12 3. Anathema sit for no man speaking by the spirite of God calleth Iesus execrable In decret pontiff dist 2. cap. Comper No no they that diuide this holy mysterie bee Sacrilegi saith Pope Gelasius and so by good consequent this Anathema sit must returne home and fall vpon their owne bald pates that made it But to leaue these fashoods and to giue you the true meaning of this ancient Father in a summary Compendium wee must beleeue that bread in the Lords supper is the bodie of Christ not simply but in such a figure as taketh not away the truth of the Scripture as we also beleeue man to be after a true vnderstanding Gent. 1.26 27 the Image of God for as man is after a sort the Image of God as the word of God testifieth though hee be not throughly so neither in regard of bodie nor soule nor minde nor baptisme nor vertuous liuing not any other euident and liuely similitude wee see him to haue with God so doe wee beleeue that the bread which is of a round figure and without sense and feeling is after a true manner and meaning the bodie of Christ as the wordes of Christ teach vs though it be not so by substance or apparant proportion and portraiture of bodily members Wherefore though bread by nature be but a prophane common element appointed of God to feede our bodies yet by grace it pleaseth the Lord to make it and to call it his bodie that is a Sacrament of his bodie whereby as by an effectuall instrument the faithfull receiuers are spiritually fed and nourished to eternall life This I take to be Epiphanius meaning whereunto I will adde a few lessons for more perspicuitie and for the ouerthwarting of those two lessons which our Papist heere giueth vs. Frst Epiphanius being learned and industrious knew well inough wherein the Image of God consisted Ephes 4 24. Coloss 3 10. for Paul teacheth it plainely in his Epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians Secondly this Image is so defaced and ouershadowed in the posteritie of Adam that nothing in man or about man seemeth answerable or agreeable vnto it Thirdly notwithstanding this obscuritie wee must beleeue the truth of Gods word that man is created after the Image of God and not ouerthrow that truth by allegoricall subtilties Fourthly wee haue the like example in the wordes of Christ at his last supper namely this bread is my bodie which Epiphanius knew to be spoken per gratiam by grace whereby that common element was aduanced supernaturally and mystically yet truely to haue the name of the bodie of Christ whereof it was a Sacrament Fiftly there is no apparant equalitie or likelyhood or outward sensible similitude or proportion of members why bread should be so called Lastly notwithstanding this difficultie we must beleeue that by bread is meant true bread and by bodie the true bodie of Christ and that the one is sayd of the other figuratiuely indeed because they be dispanita yet truly as our Sauiour spake and not flye to origenicall allegories which ouerthrowe the hystoricall truth of Gods holy word and turne it into fables These lessons I trow be plaine inough yet I doubt our Papist will
weakenesse shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine and euery testimonie thereto belonging whereof you may gather that this second wound is easily healed I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas doth not prooue them to be of two Churches or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke The ancient Fathers were men and might erre and did erre many of them together euen whole Councels as it is apparant to the world yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church No friend Papist though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine as they likewise discented from such as were before them yet all of vs hold one foundation and it was no part of their beleefe that such as held not these points were out of the Church neither is it any part of our beleefe Ad Fortunatianum Epist 111. that such as held them were damned Heretickes Austine saith Catholicorum laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus vt nobis non liceat saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere We ought not to haue the same in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men as the canonicall scriptures that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men disallow and refuse something in their writings And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine Epist 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie Austine is bold to answere him thus Solis eis scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia per illos authores canonicos vel probobabili ratione quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerūt I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures which are now called Canonicall to beleeue assuredly that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing But others I read so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth The Dialogue Sectio XXIII PRo The Doctors did erre grosly in many things as you must of force cōfesse therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon Austine wrote his Retractations in the doctrin of purgatorie which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie he was so a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle doubtfull and wauering that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully as fieri potest it may be that there is such a thing forsitan ita est peraduentute it is so sometime he seemeth to affirme it and sometime he flatly denieth it Irenaeus held that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages Hilarie held that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers and find in them many such points of doctrine which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie Now tell me why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church by refusing some of their opinions more than you doe exclude them out your Church by refusing of other some or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one as it is for you to reiect it in the other or why may not I argue as you doe against vs that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time did imbrace the same or if that their said opinions had bene erroneous that some men or other would haue impugned thē by writing Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points b VVhere or whē here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order first therefore I must not denie that the doctors were men and that they were not without their blemishes and errors c VVe must d sappoint you of your hope Looke the answere hoping that you will also confesse that they were such men as for their great learning and piety haue euer bene admired and had in high reuerence of all posteritie and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ To erre is incident to mans frailtie and to d As you papists doe persist in an errour is brutish but to e As you papists cannot abide to doe acknowledge and recant an errour is the worke of the holy Ghost and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it but if you doe f VVe insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes infinuate by alleaging of his Retractations that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes the booke is extant let the iudge be brought foorth your next allegation whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie is the instabilitie of his g His doctrine touching purgatorie but now simply as you insinuate doctrine for one while say you he affirmeth another he denieth another he doubteth it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion and how after his conuersion hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h Beleeue not vs but your owne eyes look and peruse the places beleeueth you herein must also beléeue therewithall that S. Austine had neither learning wit nor regard of his repuputation but let vs admit that such foule blots as you do pretend had dropped from his pen is it not like think you that in his i VVhat if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractatiōs how then Retractations they should haue bin discouered and
wiped away This might serue for answere of this friuolous obiection concerning the instrabilitie of Saint Austines doctrine but because it is a string much harped on let vs assay by harping whether it be a true cord or not now do you k Be like you will not know wheere vnlesse it be shewed you k This place of Austine is cleere against limbus puerorum shew me where Saint Austine doth denie purgatorie as I haue shewed you where he hath affirmed it Pro. Austine in his 14. Chapter De verbis Apostoli saith thus The Lord who shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead as the Gospel saith shall diuide them all into two parts whereof one shall bee placed on his right hand and the other on his left to those on his right hand he shall say Come ye blessed c. The one he calleth his kingdome the other damnation with the deuill there is no third place left for infants and a little after he concludeth thus if there shall be a right hand and a left since we haue none other place by the Gospel behold the kingdome of heauen is on the right hand Pa. Héere is a faire l There be fairer showes in Austine then this shew but all is not gold that glistereth S. Austine in that place hauing to deale with the Pelagians who held that children which die before baptisme should by reason of their innocencie attaine vnto eternall saluation but not vnto the kingdome of heauen and that children are to be baptized not for eternall life but for the kingdome of heauen for confutation of that heresie doth there labour to prooue that whosoeuer doth not appertaine to the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine vnto damnation his argument is this At the generall iudgement Christ shall diuide the quicke and the dead into two parts whereof one shal be on his right hand another on his left therefore children which die before baptisme must either be on the right hand to whom the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine or on the left whose portion is m That is damnation into euerlasting fire with the diuell and his Angels Mat. 25.41 I trow this is hell not limbus puerorum damnation for saith he there remaineth no third place for infants What maketh this place against purgatorie for they that doe allow low of Purgatorie doe hold also that there are but two places to wit heauen and hell and that whosoeuer shall be placed in purgatorie for a time doth notwithstanding appertaine to one of those two places for a third place they likewise doe not know behold how easie a matter it is to carpe at contrariety in any mans writings be they neuer so plaine and perspicuous n Heere the flood-gate is opened to a great deale of prophane and irreligious talke euen so doe the Iewes taxe the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and great appearance thereof there seemeth to be therein S. Iohn saith He that is borne of God sinneth not And againe in the same Epistle he saith If we say we haue no sinne we deceiue our selues and the trueth is not in vs The Bee sucketh honie and the Spider poyson take away the authoritie of the Church Councels and Fathers and leaue euery man to his owne o As though fancy had no place in Councels and fathers but only in Scriptures fancie in the interpretation of Scriptures and open the fountain of all heresie and Atheisme After your single incounter with Saint Austine you seeke to ouerthrow the credite of all the Doctors at once by taxing them with many grosse errors I graunt the doctors had their errours and imperfections so had S. Peter for S. Paul withstood him to his face and p VVe doe not say they are are your new writers of the purest stampe free trow ye much lesse are Cronographers writers of ciuil histories what then shall we q No but resolute diuines become Scepticke Philosophers what shall we not beléeue that which they do write out of their own knowledge and wherof themselues were eye witnesses and consequently shall we beleeue nothing but what we doe r Yes what we taste smell and feele too Lord what vaine chat is this heare and see If you will affoord an Historiographer any credite in these cases affoord the Catholicke doctor the like in the same case beléeue that which he writeth as an eye witnesse if not beleeue an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers of them in a matter of fact confirmed by the testimonie of their owne eyes if not yet beléeue them at the least wherein they doe produce themselues for eye witnesses and ſ All this is but impudent facing a thousand other like witnesses with them of this last sort are most of the testimonies of the doctors which I haue produced against you they write that prayers were made for the dead that sacrifice was offered for the quicke and the dead that it was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and heard and saw it done and thousands moe with them and were themselues principall agents in the doing of it Now let vs see what those errors bée wherewith you seeke to bring the auncient doctors out of credite Irenaeus held t Belike Irenaeus neuer heard any newes of Purgatory that the soules of the righteous should rest in a place for them appointed of God vntill the generall resurrection that Satan did not know his owne damnation before the comming of Christ Tertullian that second marriages were not lawfull Hilarie that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his bodie Cyprian held rebaptization and so might I passe through the rest of these and such like errors u As though they were not deliberate assertions but only scapes escaped in the writings of the fathers Erasmus alleaged a threefolde reason First the points wherein they erred were not as then called in question or if they were the Church had not as then determined of them Secondly they were constrained for the confutation of heresies to handle such high mysteries as were beyond their capacitie Thirdly in dealing earnestly against heretickes they were sometime with feruor carried into the contrarie extreame Now will I shew you the difference beeweene these and the like errours escaped in the writings of the fathers and those points of doctrine wherein I haue cited them as witnesses against you the one they deliuer as their owne priuate opinion the other set downe as a doctrine x How knew they that or you that they did so generally receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church the one is as the Prouerbe saith but one doctors opinion the other an vniforme consent of many the one the Church hath reiected the other it hath receiued and practiseth Thus y So may you see you haue sayd nothing may you see the reason why the doctors are to be reiected in the one and receiued in
eternall but to helpe out our Protestant let him take these places out of Austine against purgatorie Hypognost lib. 5. Primum locum fides Catholicocorum diuina authoritate credit regnum esse caelorum secundum Gehennam vbi omnis Apostata vel à fide Christi alienus aeterna supplicia experietur tertium penitus ignoramus imo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inueniemus The first place the Catholicke faith doth by the authoritie of God beleeue to be the kingdome of heauen the second to be hell where euery Apostota and alien from the faith of Christ shall be punished euerlastingly a third place we knew not at all neither shall we find in the holy scriptures that there is any such Againe In Ioh. tract 49. Habent omnes animae cum de seculo exierint diuersas receptiones suas habent gaudium bom mali tormenta sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio bonorum gaudium amplius erit malorum tormenta grauiora quando cum corpore torquebuntur All soules after they goe out of the world haue diuers rewardes the good haue ioy and the bad torments but when the resurrection shall come the ioy of the good shall bee greater and the torments of the bad more grieuous when they shall be tormented with their bodies Againe In Psal 32. Si texit peccata noluit aduertere si noluit aduertere noluit animaduertere si noluit animaduertere noluit punire noluit agnoscere maluit ignoscere If we haue hid our sinnes he would not see them if he would not see them he would not iudge them if he would not iudge he would not punish he would not acknowledge he had rather pardon them Againe Ad Hesick epist 80. In quo quemque inuenerit suus nouissimus dies in hoc eum comprehendet mundi nouissimus dies quoniam qualis in die isto quisque moritur talis in die illo iudicabitur In Psal 25. In what state any mans last day findeth him in the same shall the last day of the world take him because as a man dieth in this so shall he bee in that day adiudged And againe Valeat mihiad perfectionem liberationis tantum praetium sanguinis Domini mei So great a price of my Lords blood is sufficient for my perfect deliuerance Sermon 57. Adde to these if you will out of the Sermons Ad fratres in Heremo Scitole quod cum anima á corpore euellitur statim aut in Paradiso pro meritis bonis collocatur aut certe pro peccatis in inferni Tartara praecipitatur Know this that so soone as the soule is taken out of the bodie by and by it is either placed in Paradice for good deserts or else certainly cast headlong into hell for sinnes Thus haue I shewed where Austine doth denie purgatorie and though our Papist list not to heare of that side yet let me shew him likewise where Austine doubteth of purgatorie Encharid cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it be so done it is a question Ad dulcit quaest 1. lib. de fide oper cap. 16. de ciuit dei lib. 21.26 Ibid. cap. 27. Againe Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitā talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantum arbitror aratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of trueth as I suppose Againe Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideò hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione ventalia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forfitan verum est Whether things committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seeke not to conuince because perhaps it is true And againe Quis sit iste modus quae sint ista peccata quae ita impediunt peruentionem ad regnum Dei vt tamen sanctorum amicorum meritis impetrent indulgentiam difficilimū est inuenire periculosissimum definire ego certè vsque ad hoc tempus cum inde satagerem ad eorum indagationē peruenire non potui What is this manner or what be those sins which so hinder the comming to the kingdome of heauen that yet the merite of holy friends may obteine pardon for them it is very hard to find and very perillous to determine surely though I haue laboured earnestly to search yet can I not find it out vntill this time These places be sufficient to shew Austines wauering in the matter of purgatorie and if it were not for shame I would shew also where he affirmeth it because our Papist hath shewed it so sillily yea but it were a hard matter to perswade any man to credite you herein then let him credite his owne eyes let him looke vpon the places and consider of them and they I trow will be sufficient to persuade so much as you say not so I hope for Austine was a great learned man before his conuersion and after his conuersion the most learned doctor and subtilest disputer that euer flourished in the Church what then altering in iudgement is an argument of increase in learning and our Papist himselfe told vs a while agoe that to consist in errour is brutish if therefore Austine say one thing at one time and afterward vpon better triall and trauell say otherwise at another I doe not see how it can hinder his estimation much lesse proue him to haue neither learning wit nor regard of his reputation as our Papist here without either learning or wit hath concluded What if a man set downe an errour or many errours in his young dayes doubt of them in his middle age and write the cleane contrary when he is of greater yeres and experience shall he therefore be thought to haue neither learning nor wit nor regard of his reputation No friend papist it would not hurt your reputation a whit to deny that in a new booke which you affirme in this and to affirme that which you denie here and to doubt of that whereof here you seeme to be resolute remember your owne conclusion to erre is incident to mans frailtie but to persist in error is brutish Touching the quickenesse and acutenesse of Austine in disputing I easily confesse it for hee was a learned doctor and a most subtile disputer indeed yet a quicke wit doth soonest fall into contradiction and the heat of a quick disputer carieth him sometimes as our papist telleth vs out of Erasmus De Genes ad
it be presently bestowed on the poore so shall men not seeme to forsake the memories of their friends which might be occasion of no small griefe of heart and that which is celebrated in the Church shall be godlily and honestly celebrated It is not very easie to gesse what these oblations were for the sacrament cannot be sumptuous vnlesse we met some precious stone of great value in the Communion Cup as Cleopatra did in a cup of Ippocras other oblations cannot be sold nor yet giuen to euery one that asketh them if it be said that the sacrament might be called sumptuous not in it selfe but in regard of the pompe and costly braueries of funerals it is easily seene that Austine heere speakes not of funerals but memorials which as they were sumptuous so were they celebrated with feasting and ioy not with mournefull calling vpon God for a gaole deliuerie and therefore we may better vnderstand this same aliquid adiunare somewhat to helpe of helping the liuing who otherwise might conceiue sorrow of heart or of the inflaming of mens deuotion to zeale and feruencie of prayer when they behold the representation of the death of Christ in the reuerend mysteries then of offering Christ in sacrifice to God his father for the reliefe of the dead Vero aliquid adiuuare credendum est We might belieue that they doe indeed helpe somewhat saith Augustine but that euery one that celebrated the memory of his friend should beleeue that his friends soule was in purgatorie crauing yeerely reliefe at his hands that saith not Austine it may be his friends soule was in heauen it may be it was in hell it may be it was deliuered out of purgatorie the last yeere or the yeere before and therefore it may be that oblations could not helpe him and so consequently that Austines credendum in this case is no whit better then an ignorandum howbeit you may tell your papist that this place is not for his profite for if his massing soule Priest may not sell his oblations and prayers but giue them freely and cheerefully to all that aske tht poore man will hardly be able to keepe a Concubine Austine saw that veniale peccatum veniall sinne was like to prooue venale venall or set to sale and therefore he saith prebeantur neque vendantur let them be giuen not sold But now no money no masse no penny no pater noster Wherefore to conclude all in a word if this had bene Austines faith he would not haue taught it so loosely and vntowardlie yet howsoeuer he teacheth it as faith or opinion or custome or what else soeuer the faith of one moderne sacrifice Sacrificatorians is of another Edition The Dialogue Sectio VIII SAint Ambrose who a This Ambrose neuer saw S. Austine nor S. Austine him conuerted Saint Austine to the faith die likewise hold and practise the same doctrine for thus he prayeth before the celebration of the diuine mysteries Let the inuisible forme of the Holy Ghost descend to teach me thine vnworthie Priest reuerently to handle so high a mysterie that thou mayest mercifully receiue at my hands this sacrifice to the helpe both of quicke and dead Precatio prima praeparans ad b The word Missa is not to be found in all Ambrose missam The Answere BElike Ambrose and Austine must agree in all points because the one conuerted the other otherwise this tale of Austines conuersion is told out of season but by your leaue if this counterfect prayer be construed after the Popish fashion I doubt whether Austine will giue it allowance Howbeit supposing this Iacke Strawe to be the right Ambrose I answere that he speakes not here of this mysterie as it is a sacrament putting vs in mind of God for then the vertue of it could not depend vpon the worthinesse the reuerent or irreuerent handling of the Priest but as it is a sacrifice putting God in mind of vs now if Ambrose purposed to offer vp the very body and blood of the sonne of God in sacrifice to his father the absurdity of receiuing it mercifully in regard of his reuerent handling remaineth still for the reall body and blood of Christ had bene acceptable to God of it selfe without helpe of Ambroses holinesse Contr. epist Par. lib. 2. cap. 8. Austine could not abide that Parmenian should say that the Bishop is mediatour betweene God and the people and auoucheth that if Saint Iohn had taken so much vpon him euery good faithfull Christian would haue taken him for Antichrist rather then the Apostle of Christ and therefore if Ambrose had prayed that God would mercifully receiue the body and blood of his sonne at his hands making himselfe mediatour betweene the sonne of God and his father as Popish Priests venter to doe at this day in the Church of Rome I may well thinke Austine notwithstanding his conuersion would haue detested it Lib. 4. part 2. Cum sacerdos orauerit prohostia transubstātianda eamque transubstantiatā patri obtulerit orat pro ipsius acceptatione Whē the Priest praieth for transubstantiating of the hoste and doth offer it being transubstantiated to the father he prayeth for the acceptation of it Thus saith Durand and the Priest in the Masse desireth God to looke Propitio ac sereno vultu propitiously and cheerefully vpon the body and blood of Christ his sonne and to receiue the same as once he receiued the sacrifice of Abel c. This is a presumptuous and a desperate blasphemy yet must we either make Ambrose guilty of it in this praier or else see him discharged of transubstantiation There is a full discourse in Irenaeus where it is prooued out of the Scriptures Lib. 4. cap. 34. that God euer accepted him that offered better than the offering and that no oblation is pleasing vnto God when hee that offereth it doth not please him better and therefore it is sayd in Genesis Cap. 4.4.5 that the Lord had respect vnto Abel and his offering but vnto Cain and his offering he had no regard and if the offering of a wicked man were acceptable to God it had bene out of season to charge that man to goe away from the Altar to be reconciled with his brother Matth. 5.23 before he presume to offer his oblation so long as a man choseth his owne wayes and inwardly delighteth in abhominations Esa 66.23 c. his killing of a bullocke is as if he slew a man his sacrificing a sheepe as if he cut off a dogs necke his offering an oblation as if he offered swines flesh and such a mans offering incense to God is as if he blessed an idoll It commeth to passe often among men that the wicked is accepted for his gift and so absolued because the iudge is either needy or couetous but God hath no neede of our sacrifices he neither eats the flesh of Buls nor drinkes the blood of Goats Psal 50.30 he neither eats bread nor drinkes wine
labours This place is cleere yet Bellarmine hath scraped together two answeres one out of Anselmus who saith that Saint Iohn speakes of the time that followeth the last iudgement which is absurd for then he would haue sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from thence-forth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from hence-forth his other answere out of Haimo and Richardus De S. Victore restraines the comfort of this heauenly voice to Martyrs and perfect men which is a male part impounding of the grace of God common to all that keepe the commaundements of God and liue and die in the faith of Iesus it will trouble Bellarmine and Victor let father Haimo help them to perswade wise men that Meri in Domino to die in the Lord is more proper to perfect men than Nubere in Domino 1. Cor. 7.39 to marry in the Lord to perfect women howbeit these two answeres play at hard-head and beat out one anothers braines Anselmus cannot abide we should allow the one and Haimo and Victor wil be starke angrie with vs if wee allowe the other and therefore to please both sides it will be our best way to allowe neither But to proceede Chrysostome makes another petition for the dead that they may finde the Iudge fauourable wherin we must consider two things the sentence of the Iudge and the Execution The sentence is either particular presently after death Eccles 11.26 or generall at the last day in the clouds of heauen touching the former Chrysostomes petition for fauour comes too late and touching the other it must needs bee either venite benedicti patris mei come ye blessed of my father or else ite maledicti in ignem aeternum Math. 25.34.41 goe ye cursed into hell fire no praying or sacrificing can either reuoke or alter this sentence Ego Iehoua non mutor I am the Lord Malac. 3.6 Genes 18.25 and change not and as the Lord is immutable so his sentence both first and last is iust Shall not the Iudge of the world doe right saith Abraham as if he should say it is impossible it should be otherwise wherefore if any fauour bee to be found it must be in the execution Psal 103.20 Now the Executioners being either Angels or Diuels Angels must doe the will of God as it is enioyned them at the Diuels hands no fauour can bee looked for nowe what 's next verily it is hard to tell vnlesse we call vpon God to rectifie that which is right to mend that which is not amisse to vndoe that which is done well and to mitigate that punishment which is no sharper than it ought to be it may well stand with the folly of mans affections to make such prayers but it will hardly stand with the wisedome and iustice of God to giue them the hearing Suffragia aut ad hoc prosunt vt plena sit remissio Enchirid. cap. 110. aut tolerabilior damnatio saith Austine Suffrages are profitable to make either remission of sinnes more perfect or damnation more tollerable but how remission or mitigation of an absolute and a iust sentence damnatorie Ad supplicium tantum tale To punishment so great and of such qualitie being vnder execution can possibly stand with Ego Iehoua non mutor in Malachy it passeth the reach of all the wit learning I haue to determine Wherfore well might Chrysostome say Nouerunt the Apostles knew what profite redounded to the dead by commemoration in the dreadfull mysteries for hee himselfe knew not how the prayers of Priest and people could profite the dead much lesse how annuall commemorations could doe it And here let it bee considered how vntowardly Chrysostome disputeth the Apostles knew that commemoration of the dead at the altar was profitable vnto them Ergo the Apostles ordained it should be so I will not stand vpon the sequele let that goe for good but how knewe Chrysostome what the Apostles knew who reuealed their counsell vnto him if any bodie told him what reason had he to beleeue it if no bodie told him what reason had he to say it and therefore he that loues Chrysostome best must needs confesse that his antecedent is more doubtfull than his conclusion but when hee reasoneth further that the people and Priest stretching out their handes to heauen must needs appease Gods wrath Ergo commemoration of the dead is profitable hee is much ouer-seene for commemoration of the dead and praying fot the dead are not the same as the Papists themselues knowe and confesse De purg lib. 1. cap. 5. Epiphanius nusquam dicit orari pro sanctis sed memoriam fieri saith Bellarmine Epiphanius neuer saith we pray for the dead but hold a memorie of them And therefore herein Chrysostome is forsaken of all his friends both Papists and Protestants howbeit the growing of this vnluckie twigge from profiting the quicke to profiting the dead from commemorating at the altar to praying offering and sacrificing at the altar from thankesgiuing to intreating c. is here made knowne vnto vs so as now it is become a tree of so great spread that a number of vncleane birdes build their nests in the braunches of it The Dialogue Sectio X. TErtullian a This ancien father was a Montanist and a Chiliaste as it appeareth by this place This ancient father reasoning with a woman whose husband was dead concerning the bond that did still remaine betwéene her and her dead husband concludeth thus Let her pray for his soule let her intreat that he may be refreshed b VVhat bond see Rom. 7.2 He puts out and in and misordereth Tertullians words in the meane time and that at the resurrection she may haue the fruition of his company these things if she do not it may be truely said of her that she hath forsaken him infinite are the places which might be alledged to this purpose but this may suffice to prooue that this was the beléefe and practise of the c Ierome saith that Tertullian was not homo ecclesiae a man of the church Church in Tertullians time who liued néere vnto the Apostles that in Epiphanius Ambrose Austine Chrysostomes d All these were of one time and onely Chrysostome fathereth this Tradition vpon the Apostles it was holden for a Tradition left by the Apostles and generally beléeued and practised through e That which he called the Latine church is here called Vniuersall c. Vide Sect. 7. the vniuersall Church and that it hath euer since bin so beléeued and practised through the world vntill the bore affirmation of Luther that there was no such Tradition left by the Apostles preuailed more with you than the authoritie of all these ancient fathers and the long continued practise of the vniuersall Church to the contrary The Answere YOur Papist heere alleadgeth Tertullian and for very shame concealeth the place where this testimonie is to be found if he had but named Tertullians booke
de Monogamia it had been a sufficient preseruatiue against the contagion of this allegation for Ierome noteth this very booke In Catal. Eccle. script and the booke de exhortatione ad Castitatem and some other to haue been written aduersus Ecclesiam against the Church and the same father writing against Heluidius would not vouchsafe to answere a place alleadged out of Tertullians booke de Monogamia no otherwise then thus de Tertulliano nihil amplius dico quà m Ecclesiae hominem non fuisse of Tertullian I say no more but that hee was not a man of the Church so then Tertullian was a paracleticall Montanist and the first father of the Tertullianists which Austine speakes of in his booke of heresies ad quod vult Deum Secondly the booke de Monogamia is condemned of the Church and lastly this very place hath two plague-sores running of it as being infected with two capitall heresies Tertulide Monogam namely the heresie of the Montanists and the heresie of the Chiliasts these be the words pro anima eius oret refrigeriū interim adpostulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius nam haec nisi fecerit verè repudiauit quantùm in ipsa est c. Let her pray for his soule and desire refreshing for him in the mean time and his companie in the first resurrection and let her offer yerely on the dayes of his death for if he do not these things she hath as much as lyeth in her made diuorce Here wee see first that Tertullian doth not say ores but oret adpostules but adpostulet offeras but offerat feceris but fecerit repudiasti but repudiauit quantum in te est but quantum in ipsa est whereof it followeth that hee doth not reason with a woman but speake of a widow woman reading her a Cataphrygian lecture not to marry againe but to pray for the soule of one husband to intreat for a refreshing to one husband to desire companie of one husband to offer yeerely for one husband c. for being a Montanist he thought it a fowle shame for her to pray thus for many husbands Lib. de exhort ad Castit duplex iste rubor est a double shame saith hee in another place nay triplex and quadruplex if happily she marry so often and so pray for the soules of so many husbands wherefore we see by this little light that praying and offering for the dead is held by Tertullian as an appurtenance to Montanisme or the Cataphrygian heresie and this is yet further strenthened in that Phylastrius saith the Montanists held baptizing for the dead which could not be done without prayers Now touching the other heresie of the Millenaries or Chiliasts your Papist translateth in prima resurrectione in the first resurrection at the resurrection leauing out prima as a note of shame for if there be a first resurrection it followeth that there is another call it a second resurrection or what you will Now euerie bodie knowes that the Chiliasts held two resurrections one at the next appearing of Christ in the cloudes which blesseth all the godly with all bodily pleasures meat drinke venerie c. Another a thousand yeeres after when the wicked shall likewise be restored to felicitie Apoc. 20.5.6 If any happen to reply that Saint Iohn though he be no Chiliast speakes of a first resurrection as well as Tertullian I answeare that Saint Iohn by first resurrection meaneth regeneration which Paul calleth a rising againe with Christ and so Beda expoundeth it Colos 3.1 Beda in Apoc. 20. saying Sicut prima mors in hac vita est per peccata ita prima resurrectio in hac vita est per remissionem peccatorum As the first death is in this life by sinnes so the first resurection is in this life by the forgiuenesse of sinnes But Tertullians first resurrection cannot be so vnderstood vnlesse wee imagine this life to be after this life which is impossible This is inough I trow and too much for answere to Tertullian yet another tricke of false translation would not bee passed ouer for where Tertullian saith refrigeriū interim adpostulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium referring the word interim to the intermediall time before the woman enioy her husbands companie hee translateth it so that it must needs be referred to the refreshing of his soule before the first resurrection in purgatorie or some place of sorrow which is not to be gathered out of this place for refrigerium doth not import a former griefe but a new blessing And so this widow woman is not yet willed to pray for relaxation of paine but that her husband may haue a ioyfull sentence of blessednesse in bodie and soule in the first resurrection at what time shee was to expect the fruition of his companion Againe obserue how this Popish translator hath vtterly omitted these words offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius whereby light is giuen vs that all this praying and offering was but a matter of course and custome continually performed for preseruation of the memorie of our friends and Christian brethren deceased as there were annuall oblations Tert. de Coron milit pro dormitione for death or sleeping so then were also pro natalitijs for the birth and as the one was rather an honour to the dead than an acknowledgement of their miserie so was the other yet now oblationes pro natalitijs are cleane taken away and oblationes pro dormitione or pro defunctis still continued or rather augmented or to speake more truely cleane changed from the first institution howbeit I will not denie but Tertullian in time might haue some good conceite of purgatorie or hell rather for he cals it infernum Lib. de Anima sect 17. but I vtterly denie that euer he held any such doctrine before he was a Montanist or euer knewe it till his Paraclete taught him in his Apologie against the Gentiles within a lease or two of the end thus he writes Ideò representabuntur corpora quià neque pati quicquam potest anima sola sine stabili materia id est carne animae non sine carne meruerunt intra quam omnia egerunt Therefore shall the bodies also represent because both the soules offer any thing without stable matter that is the flesh and the soules haue not deserued any thing without the flesh in which they haue done all things This opinion is not to be liked of yet Tertullian held it so long as hee was a Catholicke and therefore so long as he was a Catholicke Purgatorie would not downe with him nor prayer for the dead neither if your Papists owne consequence bee good And that Tertullian drew this purgatorian conceit such as it was from Montanus his Paraclete doe but read the last conclusion of his Booke de Anima thus hee writes Quum carcerem illum quod