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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20964	The waters of Siloe To quench the fire of purgatory and to drowne the traditions, limboes, mans satisfactions and all popish indulgences, against the reasons and allegations of a Portugall frier of the order of St. Frances, supported by three treatises. The one written by the same Franciscan and entituled The fierie torrent, &c. The other two by two doctors of Sorbon. The one intituled The burning furnasse. The other The fire of Helie. By Peter Du Moulin minister of Gods word. Faithfully translated out of French by I.B.; Accroissement des eaux de Siloé. English	Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.; Barnes, John, fl. 1600-1621, attributed name.; I. B., fl. 1612.	1612 (1612)	STC 7343; ESTC S111086	158,344	552

at libertie because some friend of his hath scourged himselfe or fasted for him 3. Whether the pardons that the Pope giueth without enioining any penance be of any force as also those which he giueth with conditiō to work some wickednesse as in the yeares 1587 and 1588. when hee gaue seven yeares of pardon to every one that would ioine with the holy Vnion that is to say that would rebell against their king yet he a Roman Catholike 4. Againe In as much as these superabundant satisfactions of Saints are gathered together into the Popes treasurie because God will haue nothing lost how haue the superabundant satisfactions of such holy men as died vnder the old Testamēt as Moses Abraham c. beene husbanded be those also in the Popes treasury But where were they laid vp before the Pope had them Did they lie lurking in some corner two or three thousand yeares vntill the Pope gathered them together and found meanes to employ thē It were not amisse also to enquire the reason why the world in the yeare of Iubile maketh such hast to Rome cōsidering that at Rome they may at all times obtaine millions of yeares of Indulgences and full remission of sinnes and some six hundred thousand yeares of plenary pardon Aboue all we would gladly know when a man that needeth ten thousand yeares of pardon doth purchase enough for fiftie thousand yeares what becommeth of the fortie thousand yeares that remaineth Cayer saith that they returne into the treasurie for the good of others but because his companions doe despise disgrace him wee would willingly bee taught by some substantiall Doctor the rather for that at Rome and in one selfe place a man may obtaine besides the plenary pardon certaine thousands of yeares of surplussage To what end may that surplussage serue wil the Pope therewith pardon sins giue Indulgences by provision CAP. 6. That all the passages of holy Scripture by our adversaries quoted for prayer for the dead and for Purgatory are either false or vnprofitable IN all the Premises wee may see that our enimies fight but faintly that they are armed but with strawes against the force of the truth how much lesse shall they be able to do any thing when they shall be quite stripped and that little armour that is left them be cleane taken away This is it which in this Chapter wee will with Gods helpe performe My adversaries therfore whose desire of gaine induceth them to practise Pyrotechny doe heape together stubble good store that is to say simple proofs to kindle this fire of Purgatory Of these proofes some concerne prayer for the dead and some Purgatory some taken out of the old some out of the new Testament we will then without dissimulation propound them all and for my part I will deale with thē with as much equitie and sinceritie as they haue dealt with me with fraud vniustice which consisteth in suppressing my best obiections and corrupting the rest Passages produced by these three Doctors to proue prayer for the dead All that my adversaries doe alleage concerning prayer for the dead is groūded vpon a false principle namely that who so prayeth for a dead body presupposeth that there is a Purgatory but in the last Chapter wee will shew that the prayers for the dead which some of the ancients did vse were even against Purgatorie Here might we dispense for answering hereto the rather for that albeit they should obtaine their desires yet had they gained nothing toward the establishment of their Purgatory Howbeit we will doe them thus much more then right that nowe receaving their principle we wil lay open the falshood and impertinencie of their proofes therevpon 1. Cayers passages p. 24. A falshood Cayer shall haue the credit to march foremost as the most skilfull His words are these It is said Numbers 16. v. 47. 48. that Aaron reconciled the people both the quick and the dead A passage false and by him invented for as well in the Hebrew as in the translations even in the Roman it is thus Aaron standing vpright betweene the dead and the living besought God for the people and the plague ceased 2. In the third book of Kings cap. 8. v. 38. There is a manner of prayer for the dead saith Cayer in these words Every prayer and supplication made by any man for the wound of his heart in the Church it shall be acceptable to God Also in the 33. verse it is said If the people fall before their enimies in praying to God they shal be heard Were not this passage falsified yet shew me one word in it that importeth praying for the dead 3. Againe he saith that in the 57. of Esay the Prophet complaineth that they did not pray for the dead This also is false neither is there any such speech throughout all the Chapter Looke also what wee haue already said in the third Chapter and third Argument 4. He goeth on and saith that in the third Chapter of Baruch it is set downe in expresse words Heare o Lord God the prayer of the dead Israelits and of their children that haue sinned before thee And soone after Remember not the iniquitie of our Fathers First the booke is Apocriphall secondly In these wordes of Israell are comprised all the people of Israell who in those daies through the extremitie of their captivitie misery were as if they lived not as it appeareth in the eleventh verse where it is said Israell is counted with them that go downe to the graue Tearming those dead after the ordinary phrase of the Scripture that are oppressed with affliction and as it were within two inches of death As David in the 88. Psalme albeit aliue counteth himselfe among the dead and those that goe downe to the pit so also in the 18. Psalme v. 5. 6. and in the 116. Psalme v. 3. hee saith that he is environed and surprised with the snares of death and with the bonds of the sepulcher Also in the 18. Psalme v. 19. the faithfull doe desire of God that he would restore them to life as if they had beene dead and already brought to the graue Thirdly to what purpose doth hee come in with a prayer of the dead considering that our question cōcerneth only the prayer of the living for the dead Fourthly as concerning these words Remember not the iniquitie of our fathers hee prayeth that the threats of the lawe which denounce that God will visit the iniquitie of the Fathers vpon the children be not executed vpon them hee therefore prayeth that the sinnes of the fathers be no cause to prolong their captivitie as plainely appeareth in the eight verse Cayer produceth yet another passage out of the second of the Machabes but that you shal find among the passages of the other two 5. The Frier having discharged all his anger vpon M. Calvin and charged that good man with infinit slanders wresting the Interpretion of sundry his

the words of the Bul do run Manus porrigentibus adiutrices for such as shall put to their helping hands In the Church of S. Mary deliver vs from the paines of hell for that is the Churches name there are dailie granted eleven thousand yeares of Indulgēce to such as shal bring an honest offering that is to say that shal giue not to the poore indeed but to the rich Moncks not to those that weep but to those that sing for now almes with the true vse thereof hath also altred the signification of the word In the church of S. Praxede you haue dailie twelue thousand yeares of verie pardon and as manie Quarentines of daies with the remission of the third part of your sins in such māner that visiting this church three daies on a row you shal purchase plenarie pardon of all your sins and six and thirtie thousand years by provision besides the Quarentines which the Popes haue since encreased to sixscore thousand years for everie daie witnes the book of Indulgences printed at Rome in the house of Iulius Accolto an 1570. see also the book of Romaine Indulgences sundrie times printed at Rome namely in the yeare 1519 the second of Februarie by Marcell Franck. Yet are all these pardons but few in regard of those that belong to the Church of S. Iohn of Lateran Gab. Biel in his 17. lesson vpō the Cannō of the Masse the somme whereof yee shal find either hanging vpon tables or graven in the wals of divers churches of Rome All this do we set downe to shew that as the plaister ought to be fitted to the largenes of the wound so the Popes haue thought it meet to perswade men to beleeue that the paines of Purgatorie are of long continuance sith they require so long a time to purchase release from the paines thereof withal presupposing that in that so fiery and scortching a countrey where the sun hath no being they reckon all by daies and by yeares This long continuance is also to bee gathered out of the Revelation of Venerable Bede in the fifth booke of his historie cap. 13. That is to say about some nine hundred years since where he saith that the souls which in his time were in Purgatorie should be delivered in the daie of Iudgement except some few that shoulde bee redeemed from thence by the praiers of the living Moreover besides all this the selfe doctors of the Romish Church doe agree that even during these so violent torments the soules neverthelesse are assured of their salvation out of the danger of hell neither do I know since when this opiniō crept into the church of Rome for in the Masse for the dead we finde a clause after the Gospell that contrarywise doth testifie that still they are in danger These be the words Libera Domine animas omniū fidelium defunctorum de poenis Infernis de profundo lacu libera eos de ore Leonis ne absorbeat eos Tartarus O Lord deliver the soules of all the faithfull departed from the infernall paines from the deepe lake deliver them from the throat of the lyō least the gulph of hell should swallow thē vp so they fall into vtter darknes Tearms over bitter to signifie Purgatory and such as may in no case stand with people assured of their salvation We haue also the ordinary prayers said ●t burials yea and vsed at the funerall of 〈◊〉 Pope wherein we find no mention of Purgatory Indeed this soule is brought ●n as praying to be delivered from hel and from eternall iudgement in these words Saue me o Lord from eternall death ●n the terrible day when the heauens and ●he earth shall bee moved Sacrar Cerem lib. 1. Sect 15. and when thou halt come to iudge the world by fire I trēble and quake and doe feare when the examination shall come and the day of wrath of calamitie and of misery that great and wōderfull better day Speeches which cānot proceed from a soul assured of her salvatiō Surely whē these praiers were first penned these matters were not yet well considered of and this may we easily gather from Pope Gregory the first who in his dialogues placeth the Purgatory of some souls in bathes of some vnder the leaues and of some vnder the Ice and this do these three champions that haue assaulted my treatise both say and defend for nothing to them is to hard or to hot Damian speaketh of a soule that had her Purgatory in a river but whither she swam with the stream or against it he saith not The Rosarie of Bernardine hath of this nature many revelations and the Legend of S. Patricke telleth vs that in Ireland there is a caue that openneth into Purgatory to be briefe albeit many soules are returned from those partes which haue brought news yet did the matter still rest full of doubt vntil the Councell of Florence which among other occasions was assembled to perswade Purgatory to the Greeke Churches who both before and yet do deny it albeit their deputies in the Councell did agree vnto it in hope of succours against the Turk True it is that we find some more ancient Councels which made mention of prayer for the dead but hereafter we shall most evidētly proue that these prayers make nothing for Purgatory also that such prayers as we find among the ancients doe plainely shewe that they beleeved no Purgatory Even to this day doe the Greek Churches pray for the dead yet doe they deny Purgatorie In the last session therefore of this Councell holden in the yeare 1539. was it defined that wee should beleeue Purgatory In which Counsell as in all others holden within these fiue hundred yeares the Pope sat president and that with such auctority that hee grew to bee adored and intituled The Divine Maiestie the spouse of the Church the Saviour and Lion of Iuda the king Prince of all the world having all power both in heaven and in earth All which titles were attributed to Pope Leo the 10. in the Councell of Lateran Thus in all these Councels nothing passed but by his will Sess 1. 3. 9. 10. in such wise that if any did contradict him hee was soone burned as was Iohn Husse in the Councell of Constance notwithstanding the safe cōduct and faith given by the Emperour and al the Councell But to returne to our Matter The soules thus purged in this fire are brought into Paradice Howbeit because this purgation will growe somewhat long the Popes mercy doth sometimes abridge this punishment For besides that the paines that the living haue vndergon for thē as fastes almes whippings pilgrimages liberalities to the Church c. also that the Masses foūded for the deceased which leaue any rents or annuities to a convent or abbey or other religious house if we may beleeue those that sing thē are of great vse to mitigate and allay the heat of Purgatory and to

confound it selfe But what need so many by waies when they might cut it cleane of franckly say that God doth not acquit vs freely As indeed the Frier in many places saith as much in his 99 page in these words God pardoneth the sinne howbeit for the satisfaction of his iustice he appointeth the chastisement The ●ing pardoneth a gentleman for some mur●er committed yet cōdemneth him in great ●ines Sith then the pardon wherby the capitall paine is converted into pecuni●ry and so is no full pardon but a diminution of pain it manifestly appeareth that our adversaries doe hold that the pardon which God graunteth vs is no full or free pardon Hereto come their words That God doth freely remit the fault but not the pain the eternal pain but not the temporal for he that freely forgiveth his debtour the one part of his debt but not all cannot be said freely to giue or acquite the whole debt Neither can the pardon be said to be ful when there is a necessity imposed vpon the debtor to pay or suffer punishment for the sinne be it in the whole or in a part 11 Herein also appeareth the folly of their distinctiō between the fault and the paine The Frier saith Pag. 75. that the sin bringeth with it two things A faul● and a paine Had this good man beene perfect in his natural language the absurdity of his principle had been apparant for the word Culpa or fault in his language signifieth sinne witnesse the Priests words whē in his Masse lie beateth his brest and saith Mea culpa it is my sin also Iacobs wordes to Laban for what sinne of mine Gen. 13.36 What fault haue I committed And the like throughout all the holy scripture Now let the reader iudg● whether the fryer had dined when hee writ or no when he saith that sin bringeth with it the fault that is to say sin The examination of the distinction between pain and fault Vpon this worthy distinction betweene the paine and the fault is Purgatory grounded and this pinne once pluckt out the whole frame falleth out of ioint They say then that God doth indeed acquit vs of all the fault but not of al the paine A saying not only vniust but even incompatible 1 The vniustnesse hereof is evidēt for no man is iustly punished but for his fault and the fault taken away the offender is no longer guilty and being no longer guilty he cannot iustly bee punished These Doctors therefore do blemish dry vp the righteousnesse of God 2 The Incompatibility hereof is likewise manifest In that they say God doth forgiue vs all our offences yet punisheth them in a burning fire both to pardon and yet to punish one selfe offence are matters incompatible And when we forgiue our neighbour all his offences against vs we vse not to say I forgiue thee the fault yet wil I punish thee or I acquit thee of thy debt yet shalt thou pay me But as saith Tertullian in his fifth booke of baptisme Exemp to reatu eximitur poena 3 Againe sith our sinnes be debtes to the Iustice of God as Iesus Christ witnesseth where he teacheth vs to say Forgiue vs our debts of which debts the payment was paine satisfaction shal we not sin even against common sense if we affirme that God forgiveth al the debt but not all the payment Thus do● our Masters shadow vs forth Chimeraes and monsters in the aire 4 Let vs proceed How is it possible that by the death of Iesus Christ we should be purged quit and delivered from all our trespasses but not from the punishment due to our trespasses Considering that he did not otherwise beare our sins and offences but by bearing the paine due to them if he did beare the paine did he not beare it to the end to discharge vs from it Si tulit abstulit He hath borne our infirmities carryed our sorrowes saith Esay 53.4 To what end Even to discharge vs from them And this is it that S. Austin saith in his 37 sermon vpon the words of the Lord. Iesus Christ taking vpon him the punishment but not the sinne hath abolished both the sinne and the punishment 5 Throughout all this discourse this is to be noted that all our speech concerneth such paines as are paimēts redemptions and satisfactions to the iustice of God for these our Doctours do tearme Purgatory a paymēt satisfaction to the Iustice of God These be the punishments which we say to be in compatible with a full pardon There is an other kinde of punishment which is tearmed castigatory and this is inflicted for amendment of the sinner and hath great affinity with the full pardon for God doth chastise his children even after he hath pardoned them Such chastisements are not payments and satisfactions to content the Iustice of God but fatherly corrections to bring the sinner to amendment They are not executions of his iustice but testimonies of his fatherly loue care not woūds but salues and these can in no wise concurre with the tormenrs of Purgatory wherein it is said that the soules are already iust and can amend no more As therefore we vse to strike a man fallen into an Apoplexy not to get any satisfactiō at his hands but to awaken him so God smiteth his children when they sleep in their sinnes to make them feel their negligence He that otherwise interpreteth the afflictions that God sendeth and taketh them not for corrections health some to his soule but for satisfactions necessary to the iustice of God he maketh his afflictions bitter dippeth their edges in gall taking from them the spirituall consolations glory and ioy that supporteth the children of God in this combat Necessitie is a miserable consolation It hardneth the sore but healeth it not It raiseth the courage against the paine but asswageth it not For what mitigation is it to the afflicted to tell him that his sore is past cure and that of necessitie hee must satisfie the iustice of God Or how could S. Paule haue so boasted of his tribulations had hee beleeued they had beene payments which God did exact of him for his sinnes This doctrine being so healthfull so full of consolation and so evidently laid downe in the holy Scripture namely that God chastiseth vs for our amendment yet this frier Minor with a desperate presumptiō dareth avouch it to be a reason forged in our owne braine without the word of God without autoritie Pag. 78. and without reason Herevpon therefore let vs heare the word of God herein The Apostle to the Hebrews cap. 12. saith God chastneth vs for our profit to the end we may be partakers of his holinesse Againe Discipline bringeth the quiet fruit of righteousnesse to those that are exercised therein How often doth God say that he chastneth those whom he loveth Apoc. 3.19 Heb. 12.6 Iob 5.17 Prov. 3.11 David in the 119. Psalme confesseth that before he was

afflicted he went a stray but after his afflictions he kept the commandements of God And againe It is good for mee that I haue beene afflicted that I may learne thy Statuts 2. Chro. 33 Was not Manasses for his conversion endebted to his captivitie And are not we for Davids Psalmes endebted to Saul and Absalon For the building of the Church of God in our daies are not we endebted to the Martyrdome and torments that our fathers endured for the Gospell By the word of God and experience we finde other ends of our afflictions then satisfaction and redemption to the iustice of God Therefore saith Chrysostome in his Homely of confession pennance that God punisheth vs not for the sinnes past Non exigens supplicium de peccatis sed ad futura nos corrigens but correcteth vs for that that is to come Here doe our adversaries rouse themselues and seeke all meanes to vnderprop their so ruinous a cause and to perswade that to pardon a sinne yet to punish it with satisfactory paines to acquit a debt and yet to make the debter pay it are things compatible such as doe well agree This doth the Frier proue by a Theologicall reason Among all the workes of God saith he doe equally shine his mercy and his iustice a propositiō that beareth many exceptions Pag. 75. As in the punishment of Divels we find soveraign iustice without mercy And God doth often minister the one without the other as himself saith in the Epistle of S. Iames cap. 2. There shall be iudgement mercilesse to him that sheweth no mercy Only in the worke of redemption is this proposition true his mind is that in the Iustification of a sinner Gods mercy should be displaied in conferring vnto him the first grace and remission of eternall paines And to giue some way to his iustice he will haue it to take some satisfaction of the sinner by punishing him with temporall paines as well in this life as in Purgatory Wherein I beseech the Reader to consider the nature of the vntruth which consisteth in wrangling and iarring with his owne principles The frier said that among al the works of God his mercy his iustice did shine equally but here he maketh them altogether vnequall In that mercy revealeth her selfe in pardoning an infinite paine but iustice sheweth herselfe in making thē suffer temporall punishments which neverthelesse may be abridged and redeemed by some fasts and slight offerings made by the survivers for the dead Was it meete to seeke place for the iustice of God where wee might abase it so low and dishonor it in paying it in such base coine and clipped mony● Even this might serue for an evident and most mightie testimony to the truth if wee proue that according to our beliefe gathered out of the word of God the Iustice of God and his mercy doe equally shine in the worke of our redemption are likewise infinit For God hath shewed himselfe infinitly iust in accepting at the hands of our pledge and redeemer Iesus Christ a sufficient price for all our offences also infinitly mercifull in allowing to vs this payment as made in our name His wisdome hath vnited things which otherwise seemed hardly to agree having found a meanes to punish all our sins and withall to forgiue them all by giving to vs his son the obiect of his iustice for an argument and matter of his mercy But to pardon a man all his sins and yet to make the same man to beare one part of the deserved punishment for satisfactiō for the same are matters contradictory The fire of Helie speaketh no better to the purpose Adam saith he had pardon for his sinne and yet both he and his posterity haue incurred many calamities 1. Hereto we do answere that to no ende hee here commeth in with the paines and sorrowes that are cōmon to all men sith that in this place wee deale only with punishments proper to the children of God 2. He deceiveth himselfe in thinking that the evils and paines for al men are punishments for the sinne of Adam For they are punishmēts because men do persist in the sin of Adam God never punisheth one man for another mans sin The child shall not beare the iniquity of his father saith Ezechiell 18.20 True it is that so manie Calamities had never befallen mākind had not Adam sinned but yet this stādeth ever firme That God never punisheth any before they haue throughly deserved it 3. He presupposeth that which is false and yet in question namely that the paines whereto the faithful be subiected by the sin of Adam be satisfactions payments and redemptions to the Iustice of God For of this kinde of paines do we now entreat because they make Purgatory to be of this nature We say then that al these evils labours diseases yea even death it selfe do alter their nature in the faithfull and of evils become medicines Of satisfactorie pains they are made healthsome exercises to the soule God by the wounds of the body healeth the woundes of the soule even in like manner as a triakle composed of venimous Ingrediences yet tempered by a skilfull Physition becommeth a very healthsome preservatiue The like do we say of the death of the faithfull It resembleth the passage over the red sea where Gods enemies are swallowed vp but his children doe finde way to the promised inheritance Farthermore if it be a punishment to satisfie the iustice of God wherfore do the faithful expect it with Ioie and in their desires even hasten the comming of it as did the Apostle S. Paule Phil. 1.13 Besides these reasons they alleadge many examples as of Mary Moses David who were punished after their offences were forgiven Namely David whose example they do vrge 2. Sam. 12. Where God having forgiven him his sinne said neverthelesse vnto him The sword shall not depart from thy house because thou hast despised me Againe Because thou hast given the Lordes enemies cause to blaspheme his name thy childe shall die There is not say they to the end thou shouldest not cause to blaspheme Likewise in the 7. of Micheas I will beare the wrath of the Lorde because I haue sinned against him wherein their iudgement fayleth them for they labour to proue that which we do grant Who denieth but that the sins of the faithfull are the efficient causes of the chastisementes that God layeth vpon them And that they fall vpon them because they haue sinned But our controversie dependeth not vpon the efficient cause but vpō the finall They say that it is to the end that Gods iustice may be satisfied by the punishment of the sinne we say that it is to the end A sinner may amend They will haue it That God punisheth as a iust iudge we that he punisheth vs as a loving father not to exercise his Iustice but correct our vnrighteousnesse for as for the satisfaction due to his Iustice the merits of