to mingle it with a little wine then with salt as the Priests do in their holy water Eusebius They do it not for to drincke Hillarius I beléeue it well for they are not so deintie they loue the wine as well as I. But wherefore doe they it Thomas For to deface purge the sinnes by the sprinckling thereoff Hillarius I am ashamed of their folly One may very well say vnto them as Diogenes said vnto a certeyne Panim who sprinckled himselfe with water for to purge his sinnes after their auncient manner O miserable man saith he if thou hast sâ—â—led in thy Grammer and committed a fault and incongruite thou canst not be absolued w sprinckling of the water how dost thou then thinck with the sprinckling of the water to be absolued and washed from thy sinnes Thomas It séemeth vnto me that if you haue such great thirst as you say you wil not begin to enter into a new matter for to make vs fast any longer Theophilus Admit it were so that we had a day of fasting For it is now Lent although it were not yet I do beléeue that Eusebius would haue fasted peraduenture Thomas also And when we shal be all vnder the Popes religion we must theÌ„ fast the Lent al out or els at the leastwise a great part thereoff Hillarius It is true and it is better for vs to fast at libertie then through compulsion But sith that ye be all of that minde let vs goe then to dinner ¶ Finis primi Dialog THE SVMME OF THE seconde booke SIth that we haue already declared in the first Dialogue the agreeing of the Platonicall Poeticall and Papisticall Purgatory and the diuers manners of purgations that haue bene aswell among the Panims as the Christian Idolaters and howe all those things were inuented by the Priestes for to serue their auarice and rapacitie the which was more greater in them then it was euer in others Now we wil bring in declare and sette foorth perticulerly their other practises the office which thei do for the dead how at the funeralls burialls mortuaries they follow more the errours and abuses of the Panims then the examples of the true seruaunts of God aswell in their singings and lamentacions that they make for the deade as in torches lyghtes belles ryngings and sepultures Therefore I haue intituled this Dialogue The office of the deade In which also we will declare what is the honour that is due vnto the deade what ought to be the burialls funeralls and the sorrowing of the Christians what hath bene the beginning in making coÌ„memoration prayers for the dead Also we will declare the principall poynts of the Masse of Requiem that they doe sing for the dead and wee will proue by their owne words that they doe pray rather for the Saints and Saintes and for those that are in Paradise in ioye and celestiall rest then for those which are in paynes be it in Purgatorie or in any other place according to their owne doctrine and how by their owne praiers they sufficiently testifie and witnesse that in their doctrine there is nothing that is certeine and that they holde not those whome they doe iudge to be in Purgatory as assured of their saluation It shal be also declared what is the true Purgatory of Iesus Christ and the true satisfaction of the Christians towards God for their sinnes and how the Papisticall Purgatory and satisfactions doe disagree altogether from the promises of god the remission of sinnes by Iesus Christ It shal be declared in lyke maner for what cause God doth chastise and punish the faythfull in this world and not in the other what are the good workes and wherefore God will iudge men by them and how we must watch and do penaunce and trauayle whilst we are in this lyfe without trusting vppon the good deedes that other will doe for vs after our death Item what are the good deeds that we ought to doe for the dead and wherein we may succour helpe them and the great iniury wrong that the Popes and the Priestes doe vnto Iesus Christ and to all the Christian people holding them in the sincke and dungeon of their peruerse doctrine and traditions What fishermen they are and what their flouds and ryuers are wherein they fish and catch the golde and siluer and not the men what are their relicks and holy bodyes and how they do abuse the dead bodyes to the great dishonour of God and of his Saints as the Coniurers and Sorcerers doe And wherto serueth all that which is done at the burialls and chiefely to those which are buried in the habite or coole of Saint Fraunces And in the ende we declare how Iesus Christ contayneth in himselfe all that which is needefull for vs both in lyfe and death For to enter then into the matter Theophilus bringeth the other in order THE SECOND DIALOGVE which is called the office of the dead THeophilus You did erewhile complayne bicause that in speaking of Purgatory wée were so affectioned after it that it hav almost made vs to forgette our dinner But now I doe feare very much the contrary that the dinner doth make vs forget purgatory and the residue which yet remained to be thought on Hillarius You know very well that the Priestes haue accustomed to breake their fast and to eate the soppe in the wyne in the middest of their Masse Wherefore it were good reason that we did pause a lyttle in the middes of our Masse for to breathe our selues For we haue sayd and sunge inough for the dead for to drinke once And yet wée are more beneficiall vnto them then the Priestes For wée haue not dronken vppon their costes and expences Thomas Therefore you are so much the soberer For me thinkes that you haue not druncke very much according to that that you say you were a thirst Hillarius I toke that which sufficed me and no more and was content For it doth to me more good then all that which the Priestes and Moonkes haue eaten and dronken in the name of the dead doth profite the dead It is already longe since that I would haue brought in for you that but I doe alwayes wayte when that Eusebius would beginne But I know very well that the dinner hath a lyttle abated his choler and that the aduice and counsayle of Seneca is good who counsayleth those that are subiecte to ire choler not to fast nor to take in hande any wayghty matter if they do finde themselues by experience to be more enclyned to wrath before they haue eaten then after bicause that hunger increaseth it the more Eusebius Therefore doe you breake your fast so willyngly in the morning and are so much afraide to fast You must not impute my choller vnto fasting but to your importunate and wicked tongue For he must haue great patience which would not be moued to wrathe through your
woemen which followed Iesus Christe from Galile vntill he was buryed willinge to anointe him in his sepulchre dyd not thinke of his resurrection but did thinke to haue founde him dead as the Angells rebuked them saying why seeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead There is no doubte but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Iesus Christe as wee haue towardes the dead But to the ende that wee maye haue no more neede to dispute muche of it wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vnto thee Augustine agaynste Augustine To whome haddest thou rather staye eyther vppon Saincte Augustine followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture and speakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne or vnto hym and other auncient Doctours wyth the holy Scripture Eusebius I doe not thincke that Sainct Augustine would speake against himselfe nor the he hath bene contrary vnto the holy Scripture nor to the auncient Doctors Theophilus Thou canst not shewe vnto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye But I will declare vnto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyshed it Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye then the bloude of Iesus Christe hee sayth speakinge of Porphyras a Platonist that hee hath not knowen Iesus Christe to bee the begynninge thorowe whose incarnation wee are purged For hee shoulde haue then acknowledged a Purgatorye And in an other place hee sayth Wee haue then the bictorye in his name which hath taken mannes fleshe and hath liued without sinne to the ende that by hym beeiâ—ge the Priest and the sacrifice we are made the remyssion of sinnes That is to saye thorowe the medyatour of God and men the man Iesus Christe who in hys owne person hath purged our sinnes and restored be agayne vnto god For men are not seperated from God but thorowe sinne for which it lyeth not in vs thorowe our owne power and strength to purge them in this lyfe but therow the mercy God thorow his clemeney not thorowe our power For that vertue whiche is called ours whatsoeuer it bee it is graunted vnto vs thorowe his goodnesse Doth hee not cleerelye shewe that the purgation of sinnes is done in this lyfe and yet not thorowe our owne righteousnesse nor vertue Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other Furthermore hee manyfestly sayth the soules of the good men after they are seperated from the body are at rest and wee muste not doubt of it but those of the wicked are punished vntyll such time as the bodyes of those doe ryse againe to eternall lyfe and of these heere to eternall death whiche is called the seconde death But is it possible to speake more cleerelye and purely of Iesus Christe and of the Purgatorye that wee haue in him then when hee sayth Thorowe his death that is to saye by one onelye and true sacrifice which hath bene offered for vs hee hath purged abolythed and put out all that that had anye saultes in vs Wherefore the hygher power and those of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vs for to bee punyshed And by his resurrection hath called vnto a newe lyfe wee which were predestyned hee hath iustified those that hee called and glorified the iustified Beholde woords very cleere And speaking of the opinion of Plato he sayth Those which are of that opinion doe thincke that after that one is deud there is no other paines then of Purgatorye for to purge sinnes Alyttlo after hee sayth Wee confesse that in this mortall life there is a certeyne Purgatory paine It seemeth that hee somewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduersities that man suffereth in this world do serue him for a purgation of his sinnes the which yet neuerthelesse they dare not to attribute but to Iesus Christ Although that we doe commonly say of him which hath had much euil griefe in this world the he hath had heere his Purgatory For that tasteth muche of the opinion of Plato But Sainct Augustin doth not make ther meÌ„tioÌ„ of any paineâ— of purgatoy after this life but he sayth playnely that the soules of the faythfull do rest after the deathe of the bodye But what wilt thou more cléerer then when hée sayeth Some doe beleeue that those also whiche haue not abandoned the name of Christ and which haue bene baptized in hys Church and haue not belie cutte off from the same thorow anye schisme or heresie that in whatsoeuer sinnes they haue lyued in the which they shall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes but shall perseuer and continue in them continually vntill the last daye of their lyfe shall be saued thorow the fire Although that according to the greatnesse of theire sinnes and misdéedes that fire shall bée diuturnall but not eternall But mée thincketh that those that doe beléeue this and yet neuerthelesse are catholikes are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence For the holy Scripture if one doe looke and search in it aunswereth an other thing Thou seest héere Eusebius that be speaketh of the fire of Purgatory whatsoeuer thinge he hath spoken at other time And sayth moreouer that there is but two wayes to wit one of dampnation and an other of saluation But marke well his owne words The fayth of the catholikes thorowe the diuine authoritie doth first beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen Secondly that there is a hell in the which euerye apostate and straunger to the fayth of Christe is punyshed Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures that there is any It seemeth to mee that hée speaketh very cléerely and that those authorities ought to suffice thee against all that that thou canst alledge of the auncient Doctors in the fauour of Purgatory Yet neuerthelesse the better to vanquish and pull thée down I wil yet shew foorth vnto thee some sentences of the most auncient Doctoures Marke what Tertulian sayth It seemeth vnto euery one that is wise which haue heard somtime spoken of the fields Ehseus that it hath some locall determination which hath bene called Abrahams bosome for to receyue the soules of his children and that the same region or countrey is not celestiall but it is yet neuer the lesse more higher then hell in which the soules of the righteous doe rest vntyll such time as the consumation of the thinges restoreth the resurrection of all men thorowe perfect rewarde I doe not prayse that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place wythout witnesse of the Scripture but I thincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of suche thinges wythout wytnesse of the same and I had rather staio my selfe vpon the sentence of sainct Augustine which sayth that it shoulde bee very good that an vncerteyne thing of which not onely the Scriptures doe make no mention of it but doe speake the contrary that
Sainct Cyprian hath well vnderstanded of whom the witnes is alleged by the maister of the sentences For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer suffred Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles Martirs and confessors should be put together they should not be sufficient for to put out the least sinne in the world For God doth not take onlye for satisfaction the torment but regardeth the worthynes of the person of which he receaueth the raunsome the whiche was not found sufficient but in Iesus Christ Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer were approued and allowed of God for satisfaction and cause to auoyd the paines of Purgatory there shoulde bee no men more happier and blessed then the théeues murtherers brigandes and other malefactors which are executed by Iustice And there would bee none which would not but become a théese or murtherer or to coÌ„mit some fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iustice to auoide the paines of Purgatory For if the doctrine of your diuines be true the fire of Purgatory surmounteth al the paine that a man can suffer in this life and it is so hot and burning that the visible and materiall fire of this world is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same Hillarius I cannot vnderstand in what place of the holy scripture they haue séene that I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch who hath witten that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are so great and so cruell that there is asmuche difference betwéene them and those that wee do suffer in our body and in the flesh as there is difference betwéene that which happeneth vnto vs in dreaming and that which happeneth vnto vs waking In somuch that all that whiche we doe suffer in this worlde is but as a dreame in the respecte of the same Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue rehersed of Sainct Gregory be true I shal not be abashed that hee had rather choose when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things to be in paine and sickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory bicause that hée prayed for Traianus and deliuered him from hell For although that he complained in his Epistles that hée is so much gréeuid with diseases and so great dolours that his life is vnto him nothing but paine yet neuertheles it is verye casle in comparison to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory Thomas To what purpose hath the Angell giuen vnto him to choose one of those two paines By doing good ought euill to happen vnto him Hath hée fetched out Traianus from hell against Gods will If our Priestes had such a payment for to drawe soules out of Purgatorye I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their masses Hillarius It were necessary that sithens they haue begunne the fable to ende it for to make it accorde and agrée with that of Theseus and Pyrothus who as the Poetes do witnes are punished in the hells bicause that they woulde take awaye Proserpina maugre the God Pluto Theophilus That is yet nothing in comparison to that that I haue said They do kindle that fire more For they do affirme that the same of Purgatory and that of hell is al one and that there is none other difference but that the same of hell is eternall touching his office but the same of Purgatory is not but as touching his substaunce bicause that the soules go out some time Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moste gréenous that euer was but whiche is more Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and surmounteth the dolours torments which Iesus Christ hath suffred in his death and passion What blasphemy can be more greater For what hell can be more truell then that which Iesus Christe hath suffred for vs when hee take vpon him the cursse due for our sinnes for to deliuer vs Thomas Do they not alledge some place of the holye Scripture for to proue that Hillarius Where shal they finde it their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his by whom beeing asked of the paines of Purgatorye aunswered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burne yet it could not be compared to the paine and beate of Purgatorye bost thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of such Theologians Eusebius Although that there were no Scripture that we had but our naturall sence the which God hath giuen vnto vs yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and necessarie that there be a Purgatorye in whiche the sinful men may he punished for those sinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce For it is not written with out cause Nullum malum impunitum Nullum bonum irrenumeratum That is ther is none euil which shal not be vnpanished nor no goodnes which shal not be vnrewarded Theophilus Although that those wordes are not reryted in the scripture after that manner as thou doost receyte them yet neuertheles I am content to allow it to be true I doe not deny but that God is as iust as he is merciful For otherwise he could not be god But we ought to consider by what meanes he doth exercise his iustice mercie towards vs There is no doubt but the our sinnes do deserue great punishmeÌ„t And therfore hath he giueÌ„ vnto vs Iesus Christ his sonne hath deliuered him to death for vs that our misdéeds should be punished in him that he do satisfie for vs to his souereigne iustice for to obteine of him grace mercy in his name Thou seest theÌ„ that there is none euil which is not vnpunished for to satisfie the rightousnes iustice of god but ther is differeÌ„ce in the maÌ„ner of punishing Forâ—â— he that hath bâ—ne the euil beleeueth in Iesus Christ and hath full hope and trust that thorow his death passion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remission of his sinnes thorow that saith he is the true member of Iesus Christ and adopted for the sonne of god If hee bee a true member of Iesus Christ and a true childe of God hée his sinnes are punished in Iesus Christe who for that cense hath borne the iudgement and tursse of God for all the elect But if the sinner bee an Infidell and whiche hath no parte with Iesus Christ the wrath of God falleth vppon him and he cannot escape the Iudgement of God but that his sinne be punished in himselfe in hell fire And euen as our euill deedes are punished in Iesus Christ so are our good déedes rewarded in him and by him allowed of the celestiall Father which crowneth his good
according to the rules of their Logicke one cannot draw a consequence whatsoeuer it be of propositions altogether negatiues If then of negatiues a consequence negatiue is nothing worth how shall the affirmatiue be good such as you woulde héere conclude Why one you not conclude rather This sinne is not pardoned in this world nor in the worlde to come It shall be then neuer pardoned For if there be a pardon it cannot be but in this worlde or in the other The consequence after this manner should be good For the Antecedent hath comprehended al the times and places to whome the sinne may be pardoned And after that sorte doth Saint Marke expounde it of whome the glose is more certeine then yours For in steede of that that Saint Mathew hath sayd neyther in this world nor in the other he hath said neuer Wherein it appeareth that those two propositions are equiualent and of equalytie That sinne is not pardoned neyther in this worlde nor in the other and that sinne is neuer pardoned Furthermore you doe contesse that it must bée that the fault of sinne the which maketh man subiect to dampnation be alredy pardoned in this world that ther remayneth but the payne the which he must beare and suffer in Purgatory For you doe putte none other difference betwéene the soules of the blessed which are already at rest and those of Purgatory and the dampned but that the Saints which are already in Paradise are pardoned of payne and fault Those which are in Purgatory are not pardoned but of the fault but they must heare and suffer the payne due to sinne vntill such time as they haue satisfied for it and that they be perfectly purged But yet neuerthelesse bicause that the faulte is pardoned them their payne is not to them eternall as the same of the dampned bicause that the fault of dampnation is ta ken away from them the which abideth and continueth vpon the reprobate Now Iesus Christ speaketh héere of sinne which dampneth the which agreeth not but to the reprobate Wherefore he speaketh of the faulte of sinne the which is not pardoned in Purgatory according to your doctrine for in the same one can but release the payne It followeth then that although that we doe agrée and graunt vnto you that ther is some forgiuensse of sinne in the other worlde euen as you woulde conclude of the words of Iesus Christ that the same should nothing at all relieue and helpe vp your Purgatory Wée must then consider the manner of speaking by the which Iesus Christ woulde declare how greate and detestable that sinne is and to take away all the hope of pardon vnto those which in that poynt will resist the truth knowen and will goe about to quenche and putte out the lyght of the holy Ghost which is offered vnto them And therefore hée was not contented to say that sinne shall neuer be forgiuen and pardoned But the better for to augment and amplyfie the thing hée woulde vse that manner of speaking which comprehendeth the iudgement of God the which already euery man féeleth in his conscience in this lyfe and that latter iudgement which shall be manifested in the resurrection Wherefore hee sayth briefely that in this same lyfe in the which God hath giuen to man time and space to conuert and tourne himselfe vnto him that sinne shall neuer be pardoned and yet lesse in that latter iudgement in which God will giue his latter sentence except peraduenture there were some which in him had some hope But it followeth not thererefore that he hath forgiuenesse of any sinne in the worlde to come which shall not bée héere pardoned But to the ende that thou mayst yet better knowe that Iesus Christ hath not spoken in that sorte without iust reason we must consider that he furnisheth vs héere with a good witnesse against the Originists and Anabaptiâ—â—s which doe promise forgiuenesse of sins vnto the Diuells and reprobate in the other worlde Although I doe not beleeue that Origines was of such an opinion For his bookes doe witnesse vnto vs the contrary But for to retourne vnto the words of Iesus Christ sith that Iesus Christ sayth so cléerely that that sinne which is proper vnto them shall not haue forgiuenesse in this world nor in the other it followeth then that it shall neuer haue or els it must be that they finde out an other thirde worlde euen as they haue founde out a temporall eternitie to the which they doe giue an ende and an eternall fire which is temporall not perdurable But although it should be so that there should be in the world to come some forgiuenesse of sinnes it followeth not therefore that it is necessary to haue there a Purgatory Now first of all there is no certeine witnesse that there is any remission and forgiuenesse after this lyfe but a certeine humayne coniecture and presumption Then if that proposition be buylded vppon humayne coniecture and presumption yet that which affirmeth the Purgatory is best sith that the same is none other thing but a coniecture and presumption buylded vpon other coniectures and presumptions For put the case that there should be forgiuenesse in the other lyfe coulde it not be in any other place rather then in Purgatory or at an other time then you do there limit Could it not haue bene giuen either by and by after that one is dead or delayed vntill the latter iudgement But which of the auncientest doctors of the church is there that euer hath expounded that place in such sence as thou takest it Chrisostome expeundeth it after this manner Sith that that sinne is not veniall vnto you you shall be grieuously punished both in this lyfe and in the other He meaneth none other thing by those words but that the Iewes which resisted the holy Ghost shall not be only punished in this world for to be chastised and corrected as the Corinthians were or onely in the other world as the rich man was but they shall be héere and there as those of Sodome and Gomorra For they were destroyed by the Romaines and haue not escaped eternall dampnation There is nothing in this exposition which can serue you Those which are of an opinion y the sâ—â—les doe abide vncertein of their saluation or dampnation and that they may yet profit or empaire betwéene this and the great iudgement In like manner those which doe esteme and thinke that the gospel shal be preached vnto the soules of the dead to which it hath not bene heere declared shall they not haue more colour héere to build their reasons and arguments then you for your Purgatory For at the leastwise those latter héere shal haue more appearaunce aâ—cording to the scripture bicause that they may or can alledge some places which doe séeme expresly inough to fauour that opinion And yet they haue other reasons very apparant where you haue not but certeine
heare Theophilus I beléeue that that God of the Priestes defendeth hymselfe as well from the fire as hée defendeth himselfe from the myce wormes spiders when they doe eate him and that euen as they lyue of the accidents wythout the substaunce so hath the fyre burned the accidents wythout the substaunce And accordinge to the Philosophy of the scholasticall Diuines agaynst the senâ—ence of Aristotle and of all the olde Philosophers one may easely finde accidents qualities and quantities without substaunce wythout body and subiecte Yet neuerthelesse if they dyd well consider the vertue of the fyre they should be contrained to allowe mine opynion And I woulde to God that they woulde worshyppe the fire which hath the onely vertue to purge sinnes to wytte the same with which Iesus Christ baptised which is the holy Ghost Hillarius I doe also desire that they would worship that water of lyfe the which Iesus Christ hath promysed which is the same holy Ghost But they had rather make the materiall water a God of which wée may lawfully say as wée haue sayde of the fire For if they do make a God of the fire they muste in lyke manner make a Goddesse of the water to the ende they maye haue Gods and Goddesses a Vulcan a Vesta Thetis or Amphittite Leucothea or Naiades Nymphes goddesses of the waters as wel as the Panims had for many times they attribute vnto it as much vertue as to the fire sometimes more For if their water do quench put out y fire of purgatory it hath as much vertue more theÌ„ God Canopus furthermore what dyfference is there betwéene theire Aquaticall Theologye and the same of the Ibolatrous Greekes the which the Romaines haue learned of them euen as the Papistes of the auncient Romaines As wée maye iudge by that whiche Ouid hath wrytten saying Our olde men thought and did beleeue and in that hope did dwell That sinne by purging losed was and so let not to tell Greece was the first this order gaue and therewith did suppose Offenders to be rid from sinne and so let not to glose Theophilus That doctrine shoulde hée good if it referred it selfe to the purgation of our sinnes made or done by Iesus Christ and that it extended vnto his bloud But their thought is altogether otherwise Hillarius They vnderstande that of their purgations of whiche we haue spoken off and chiefly of the water Of which superstition the Panims themselues doe mocke and haue well had the iudgement to know that the same was but vanitie as wee haue already declared by the Apothegine of Diogenes And the verses of Persius a boue alledged pretend to the same as well as those héere of Ouid which I will now rehearse Ah too light credite doe they giue which doe suppose and thincke That that same fault of murther should by water be extinct Eusebius Wée are of an opinion altogether differinge from the same For wée dooe not beleeue that thorow the sprinckling of the holy water the mortall sinnes are put away but onely the veniall sinnes Theophilus They are not then defaced and taken away by the same For the sinnes are not mortall but vnto those whiche sinne vnto death and agaynste the holy Ghost and which perseuer in their sinnes withour dooing repentaunce and running vnto the mercye of god But vnto Gods elect all sinnes are veniall not by their nature but by the grace of Iesus Christ For there is no sinne be it neuer so little which of his nature is not mortall and worthy of eternall death if Iesus Christe make them not veniall and capable of pardon to those which beléeue in hym to whome there is no more condempnation Wherefore I am abaÌ„shed of your Doctors which take so much paines to purge the veniall sinnes And amongest others the sprincklyng of the holy water and that they doe allowe so muche the exorcismes and coniurations namely of Thomas of Aquin whiche yet neuerthelesse doe nothing dyffer from charmes and sorceryes But I am yet more abashed of that Canon so full of blasphemye which is taken of Pope Alexander the fift whome you accompte to bée the firste finder out and inuentour of holy water who sayth after thys manner Wée doe blesse the water sprinckled or myngled wyth salt amonge the people to this ende that all béeing sprinckled therewyth shoulde bée sanctified and puryfied the which thinge wée commaunde all Priestes to doe so For it the asshes of a younge Heyfer béeinge sprinckeled vppon the people doe sanctifie and make them cleane by a stronger reason the water béeinge mingled wyth salte and hallowed wyth diuine praiers doth sanctifie and make them cleane And if the salte béeinge cast in the water by the Prophet Eliseus hath healed and hoplen the barrennesse thereoff howe much more the water béeinge hallowed wyth diuine prayers doth take awaye the sterrilitie of hamayne thynges and sanctyfieth and purgeth the filthinesse and multiplyeth and encreaseth the other goodes and putteth awaye the assaultes of the Diuell and defendeth men from fantasies O Lorde God what greater blasphemye can one heare is not that to tourne all the worde of God vpsyde downe and to ouerthrowe all the vertue of the death and passion of Iesus Christ That which the holy Apostle attributeth vnto the death and bloud of Iesus Christe is it not héere altogether most euidentlye giuen vnto the salte and water For in stéede that the Apostle sayth If the bloude of Dren and of Goats and the asshes of an Heyfer when it was sprinckeled puryfied the vncleane as touching the purifying of the flesh Nowe much more shall the bloud of Christe whiche thorowe the eternall spyrite offered himselfe wythout spotte to GOD purge your consciences from dead woorks for to serue the liuing God In stéede that the Apostle sayth the bloud of Iesus Christ those héere doe put the salt the water But I wyll argue and reason after an other sorte agaynst Alexander If the asshes of an Heyfer and the holy water that they doe make by the ordinaunce and commaundement of God cannot purge the conscience and can scrue but for a certeyne carnall purification for to kéepe certeyne discipline in the Iewish Churche and to prefigurate the true purgation which by the bloud of Iesus Christe ought to be in the Christian Churche but it was necessary that the onely sonne of God shoulde shed out his owne bloud which onely hath that vertue how the salt the salted water coniured by the priests without hauing either law commaundement or promise of God do it better Hillarius I should haue ben greatly ashamed to haue stayed so long vpon those vaine chidish ceremonies but that I did sée that the most wisest and the most greatest Doctors haue bene abused and deceiued are fallen into so many execrable blasphemies Thomas How hath y ben possible If it be so as you say I am greatly abashed how y
now Eusebius There is no doubt of it Theophilus Sith that it is so tell mée what soules went thether For eyther it must bée altogether emptie and voide or else it must be that some went thether eyther those of the elect faithfull or those of the Infidels and reprobate Now I do not thinke that thou wilt say that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate Eusebius One may so iudge by that which is written of the wicked rich man. Theophilus Sith then that hell was for the reprobate it followeth then necessarily that the soules of the elect shoulde goe into Purgatorye If it hée so to what ende serueth the Limbe For you doe saye that all the Patriarches Prophetes and true faythfull whiche are departed out of this worlde before the death and passion of Iesus Christe were there kepte and deteyned and they coulde not goe into Paradise vntyll such time as Iesus Christe had satysfied for them Wherefore I doe conclude accordinge to your doctrine eyther that the Limbe and Purgatorye were all one place and lodginge or else that the one of them two was voyde and supersâ—uous or that there was but one or for to speake the truth neyther the one nor the other For if the Limbe were for to receiue the faythfull that dyed in the fayth of the promyse made vnto Abraham what néede was there anye more of Purgatorye bad they not Purgatorye suffycient inough in the Limbes Were they not sufficientlye tormented to bée excluded from Paradise and depryued from the ioyes thereoff and from the fruytion of the glorye of GOD as you doe affirme For what more greater torment can a faythfull man haue then to bee depryued from suche a good thinge That is not onely a Purgatorye but a very hell Eusebius I do know that in hearing thée speake that thou which wouldest teache others art yet in greater ignoraunce and that thou vnderstandest verye euyll this matter The Limbe then was for those which were in such estate as those are nowe which haue finished their penaunce and haue made entire and whole satisfaction for their sinnes in this world which doe go strayght waye into Paradyse sauinge that those there cannot yet enter bicause that the doore was shutte vntyll that Iesus Christ came to open it and to breake the gates of Hell. Theophilus Wherefore was the Purgatorye Had it in it yet a certeyne other sorte of soules and of an other condytion then those which went into the Limbes Eusebius Yea. For thou mayst well vnderstande that all the faythfull which haue procéeded and bene before the comminge of our Lorde Iesus Christe haue not all of them bene so holy and so perfect as the Patriarches and Prophetes Wherefore it were no reason that incontinently after they are deade they shoulde receyue as much felicytie as they wythout they doe first accomplishe and ende their penaunce in Purgatorye and satysfie for their sinnes the which they haue not done in thys world as the holy Patriarches and Prophets haue done or otherwyse GOD shoulde not bée iuste For what reason is it that hée whiche hath lyued in all viees and sinnes all the time of this lyfe vntyll the laste tyme of hys death in whiche gée hath had repentaunce of hys sinnes and hath asked mercye of God shoulde haue no more gréeuous punishment but should receiue as great reward as he which al his life time hath serued God faithfully and hath alwayes lyued in holynesse righteousnesse and innocencie Theophilus Take héede thou doe not blaspheme God and doe imurye vnto his grace and mercye For I doe greatly feare but that thou wilt bée like vnto the brother of the prodigall childe who was enuious against his brother and murmured against his father béeing angrye at the gentle receiuing and of the grace and fauour that hee dyd vnto his sonne whome he had recoured béeing reduced and brought into the right way or least that thou be one of the companions of theÌ„ which were hired to work in the vineyard which did murmure against the good man of the house bicause y he did giue as much wages vnto those whom he called at the eleuenth houre a little before night for to work in his vineyard as vnto those whoÌ„ hée appointed from the morning which haue borne the burthen and heate of the day Wherfore dost thou not accuse our Lord Iesus Christ who hath aunswered vnto that poore theefe who dyd hange vppon the Crosse â—â—yth him This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise What good déedes had hée done before Art thou enuious of the grace which God doth vnto the poore sinners Eusebius God forbid But we must vnderstand that as God is mercifull so is hée righteous And if the théefe which was crucified with Iesus Christ had had that priuiledge it followeth not therefore that all haue the lyke or that they ought to haue it For as the lawe makers doe say the priuiledges of a fewe are not common lawes to all men Theophilus If that théefe hath receiued so greate goodnesse by one singular priuiledge I doe aunswere vnto thée further that none is saued but by priuiledge For all wée haue meryted eternall dampnation of our nature Inasmuch then as wée be saued that is thorow a singular priuiledge which is giuen of God vnto the elect by Iesus Christ which is not common vnto the reprobate Eusebius There is yet an other reason wherefore that théese went straight into Paradise wythout passinge by the fire and the paines of Purgatorye that is bicause that he had alreadye done his penaunce in this world and hath satisfied for his sinnes Theophilus What penaunce or satisfaction coulde hée haue made For the theftes and murthers for which hée was hanged on the Gybet Eusebius But it was the paine that hée endured and suffered and the death that he hath receiued for his demerites Theophilus As much did his companion suffer which was hanged on the left hande but yet neuerthelesse his torments haue serued him nothing at all and hée dyd not heare such promise of Iesus Christ as the other Eusebius Bicause that hée dyd not take his death and torment quyetly and patientlye and hath not beléeued in Iesus Christe and demaunded pardon of hys sinnes as his companion did Theophilus Thou alwayes commest vnto my compt and thou shalt hée compelled to confesse that there is nothinge which was the cause of his saluation but the faith which he had in Iesus Christ and the mercy of God which hée hath obteyned by the same without that that God had regard neither to his dignitie or worthinesse nor vnto his workes but vnto Iesus Christe his sonne for whose loue he hath pardoned him not for the forment and death which the théese hath suffred and the satisfaction that he could doe vnto him but for the forment death and passion which Iesus Christ hath suffred the satisfaction that he hath made for him the which
many do affirme by the commaundement of his owne sonne who secretly sent vnto him the hangman And therfore for that he dyed excommunicated hée was not buryed in the holy ground vntil that he was absolued and deliuered from his excoÌ„municating after his death by y pope by y meanes of which absolution hée was caried to Spire to the sepulchre of his fathers Wilt thou now deny that the pope hath not more power then the Saintes that he is not greater Lord then Iesus Christ asmuch to be feared or rather more then God For Iesus Christ hath said witnessed â—â—â—rely that his kingdome is not of this world But the Pope will haue it both in this world and in the other Furthermore he admonisheth vs not to feare those which can but onely kill the body and do no more but let vs feare him onely which is able to destroye both body and soule and to cast them into hell Sith then that the Pope attributeth vnto himselfe such power that after that y he hath killed the bodyes he persecuteth stil the soules after the body is dead and excommunicateth the dead and sendeth them into hell who will deny that he is not God and that he may not vse the authoritie of his keyes as well towardes the dead as towards the liuing And that his buls and pardons doe not extend and stretch foorth vnto the dead and to the soules of Purgatory As it appeareth by the doing of Pope Sixtus the fourth Innocent the eight Pascale the fift Calistus and a great many other Popes which haue giuen full remission by their buls and indulgences both to the quicke and the dead And oftentimes for small causes As for to goe and visite a certeine Chappell to make a certeine voyage and other like matters But vpon condition that he haue alwayes ready money And the better to witnesse that Popish deitie Pope Boniface the eight would not haue his Iubile among the Christians as God had it amonge the Israelites but of an other sort For God ordeined the yeare of the great Iubile from fiftie yeares to fiftie yeares for to comfort the poore people for to render and restore the wages and possessions vnto the poore that are in debt for to deliuer the poore bondmen out of seruitude bondage and for to prefigure and foreshew the yeare of grace and the deliuerance liberty which Iesus Christ ought to bring vnto the Christian people according to the prophesie of Esay and of the other prophets But the Pope Boniface in the yeare 1300 as if Iesus Christ was not come and that he had not by his comming declared vnto vs the yeare of y great Iubile which shall indure vntill the ende of the worlde by the which we are affranchised froÌ„ the serâ—tude of sinne death diuell and of hell as putting himselfe in the place of Iesus Christ hath constituteâ— his Iubile by the which he hath promised full remission of sinnes vnto all those which will come visite at Rome the Chuâ—ch of Saint Peter and of Saint Paul And hath commaunded that it should be alwayes celebrated from an hundreth yeares vnto an hundreth yeares For he feareth least the olde custome of the auncient Panims should in succession of time be altogether abolished Thomas What custome Hillarius They haue accustomed to play in the honor of their Gods iests histories and diuers other playes which they do call seculer playes bicause they do not celebrate it but from an hundreth to an hundreth yeares And therefore the Heraldes doe crye which declare and publish them Come sée the games the which none of you shal neuer se any more Eusebius But Boniface hath done cleane contrary to that y thou sayest For he hath constituted the Iubile for to abolish the memory of those Panish plaies Hillarius He hath chaunged playes into playes and those which profited him nothing at all he hath chaunged theÌ„ into others more profitable for him But the other Popes which came afterwards seing and perceiuing that that Iubile was too long for them and that they could not haue so good a part for their pray haue abrogated and made shorter the time And therefore Pope Clement the sixt hath remitted it froÌ„ 50. years to 50. years And after him Pope Sextus the fourth who hath deiâ—ied and put among the saints S. Bonauenture hath agayne remitted it from xxv yeares to xxv years and hath celebrated the first in the yeare 1475. Afterwards Alexander the sixt who was pope in the yeare 1500. following the example of Sextus hath yet better enlarged that Iubile For â—e hath not onely held kept it at Rome but hath so enlarged it thorowout all Christendome that there remayneth almost no citie village nor parish but that he hath made them pâ—rtaâ—ers of it Thomas They may then bée well called Gods liuetenaunts in earth For sith that they do it 〈◊〉 y â— â—â—â—t Iesus Christ is well at leasure He â—ught to haue no great care neither for the quicke nor for the dead sith that he hath such liuetenauntes we shall bée compelled to chaunge our Credo and whereas in the same we consesse that he shall come from heauen for to be the Iudge of the quicke and the dead we must giue that title vnto the Pope Hillarius A good Sophister wil easily absolue thy doubt For wee confesse that Iesus Christ shall come at the time appointed Wherefore they will conclude that Iesus Christ is not yet really and in euery déede Iudge of the quicke and of the dead but that he shal be Or if thou wilt that I doe tell thée in their language That he is Iudge Non actu sed habitu aptitudine but that the Pope is not onely in power remote future but actu in potentra propinqua propinquissima that is to say of act dâ—ede worke and power néere and present Thomas Beholve a goodly solution In the meane while then Iesus Christ shal rest and the Pope shall docâ—all Theophiluâ— I am abashed if their buls indulgences pardons haue such power How Gregory hath passed them ouer without making any mencion of them when he comprehended all the meanes by which the liuing might comfort the soules of purgatory For hée did put aâ—d declare â—nt foure and touched not one word of the buls and pardons But there is yet an other pointe that which y doctor Hostiensis which is of great reputatioÌ„ among the papises was not of opinion that the pope can doe such thinges by his pardons and indulgences but hath holden the contrary â—ea and the other doctors as Bonauenture Thomas of Aquin Alexander of Ales Giles Dâ—rand Richard Peter of Tarentaisâ— and many other like hauâ— had sometime the thing in doubt and haue onely disputed of it as of an opinion afterwardes haue taken vpon them baldnesse to define vpon it and to giue their sentence as if they were
vse in the censecration and halowinge of them bee a witnesse in the which you doe praye God that it woulde please hym to sende his holy Angel from heauen to blesse and sanctifie these asshes to the ende they maye bée a healthfull remedy vnto all those whiche doe call vpon his name and that althose which de poure them vpon them maye receiue bealish of their body and safegarde of their soule for the redemption of their sinnes Those asshes should haue as much vertue as the bloud of Iesus Christ They should haue yet more shew and colour as already hath bene declared to restore the auncient Iewisth Ceremonye and to make asshes of the younge heyfer then to doe that that they doe or to make them of a Calfe as the Pomaines dyd For they shoulde haue more coulor in the holy Scripture in the which they shall finde no institution of their asshes Hillarius If they doe not finde it in the holy Scripture ought it not to suffice thée that it is founde in the Balender of Ouid. But they doe adde moreouer that the Vestalles wyth those consecrated asshes for the purgation of the people not onely made wyth a Calfe but also wyth stalkes and poddes of beanes had perfumes of Brimstone of Torches of the Laurell or Bay trée of the Dliffes of Rosemarye and other lyke swéete and oderiferant trées and hearbes of which your Missell teacheth you to make your asshe to wytte of the boughes which were blessed the yeare before and of the bandes and begins which they doe put on the little chyldren in their baptisme and confirmation Dost thou thincke Eusebius that those thinges doe euyll agrée wyth your Ceremonies and the purgations that you haue nas wel for the quicke as for the dead For sith that the bloud of Iesus Christ is not sufficient for you it must néedes be that you haue a Purgatory both for the one and the other But I haue yet forgotten that at the feast of the dead the Panims dyd shut their Temples and couer and hide their images as Ouid hath in lyke manner descrided by these verses The Gods of Churches were shut vp with close and priuy doores And alters wanted sacrifice none incense on them poures Then did poore soules and bodies dead committed to the graue Still stray abroade and feede on that set for them then to haue The Athenians also vsed Ceremonies altogether like vnto that feasts of Praxiergide which they celebrated in Athens in the moneth of February to the which the one holdeth the secrete misteries one other pulleth downe all the ornamentes of the Temple and an other couereth the Image that was there Doe not you receiue and vse yet at this day all in all those same manner of dooings the which you haue referred to Lent and doe stoppe the noses of your Idolls and hange a vayle before them for to declare that it is taken no more from you then from the Iewes I know not whether you be afraide least they should smel the garlike which you eat in Lent. I wil leaue off to speake of other sperstitions Idolatries which you haue borrowed of the Panims For I should neuer make an ende But I will onely shew one part of those which are descended from the feast of the dead celebrated amōg the Panims and of the purgations y they haue aswel for the quick as for the dead to the ende thou shouldest know that euen as you haue followed thē for y purgations of the buing so haue you done in those of the dead Theophilus It séemeth also y Tertulian would referre that which y Corinthians did baptize themselues for the dead to the Februales purifiecations of the panims as letting to vnderstand that where the Corinthians dyd baptize themselues for the dead was a superstition which they did yet kéepe of their auncient customes crcept y in stéede of that panish superstitions they did abuse that baptisme thinking y it ought to serue for the dead as we do sée in our time that they haue applyed it vnto the Lords supper by the means of Masses that which the superstitins Papists doe thinke to profit the dead in whose name the Priest doth cōmunicate and sing it Although that the wordes of Tertulian are obscure and very harde yet to cramine them together it séemeth verye well that he meaneth the same and the auncientes haue almost all taken it after that manner notwythstandinge that others doe take it in an other sence and doe interprete that place of Sainct Paule of those which doe cause themselues to bée baptised when they were in extreme sicknesse and néere vnto death For the custome was that those which came to the sayth which men call the Catechumenis bicause they are instructed in the fayth and Christian Religion dyd not of custome cause themselues to bée sodedinely baptised vntill suche time as they were well instructed and taught in the secrete misteries and doctrine of the Christian Religion And therfore bycayse they had the baptisme in great reuernce and dyd beléeue that thorow the same they had full remyssion and forgiuenesse of all their sinnes and were altogether renued many taryed and referred to be baptised vntyll they were lyke to dye thinckinge that when they dyed in such a state they were more purewr and cleaner from their sinnes the whiche they coulde neuer haue done if they had not truelye beléeued and hoped for the immortalytie of the soules and the resurrection of the fleshe Although that the Apostles allowed not suche manner of dooinge Those which doe take the woordes of the Apostle after such a sence and meaninge are induced to doe it bicause that they thincke that if the Apostle dyd vnderstande and meane that of the Panish superstitions that he would not haue passed it ouer wythout rebuking that errour and doe expound it that they should baptise themselues of the dead that is to say as dead and as people which repute themseluesalready dead I haue the willinger touched this for to giue occasion vnto the readers to examine well that place and the exposition of the auncientes and others Hillarius We haue sufficiently entreated of that matter Eusebius and thinke that thou shalt haue somewhat to doe to seperate against that which we haue propounded for to proue that your ceremonies prayers for the dead are taken of the true Church of Iesus Christ For I haue rehearsed vnto thee one parte of the Popes Kalender and mée séemeth that he ought to giue mée good wages for to end them all and his feasts as Ouid hath written those of the Romaines Eusebius If thou haddest as well read the workes of Sainct Augustine and of other auncient Doctors as the bookes of Ouid and other Poets and Autors of the Panims thou wouldest speake otherwise and thou shouldest not haue fallen into such déepe rootes of errors and heresles in which thou art wrapped in in such for that thou
to haue set vs in the way and he hath opened vnto vs the vnderstanding of that which he would teach vs which auayleth as much as if he had sayd Whilest that thou arte yet alyue and that thou hast time retourne in grace and agree with thine aduersary that is to say with thy brother and neighbour whome thou hast offended and to whome thou art bound For we are debters vnto all thosâ— to whom we haue done iniurie and wrong And therefore let vs not suffer that the bloude of our brother should demaund veâ—geaunce and delyuer vs into the hande of the Iudge Leâ—te vs not tary vntill we bée cyâ—ed and that the day bee assigned vnto vs for to aâ—peare in his iudgement But let vs conâ—â—rre our contrauersies friendly the one with the other whilest he giueth vs leasure and he himselfe as a rightfull arbitrator exhorteth vs to doe it For be we assured that if wée doe it not after that hée shall tary long time he himselfe will set vs agréed But that shall be to the great cost and expences and to the great hurte and shame of him in whom he shall finde the wrong and who shall be the cause of the controuersie and of the lette and hâ—â—deraunce which shall be in the agreement For he ought to be assured that his malyce and obstination shall be vnto him déere solde and that he shall not be abated one onely farthing for if he be condemned to satisfie to the righteousnesse of God euen to the vttermost penny there is no more hope of health and saluation For sith that the sentence is once giuen and that man is out of this mortall lyfe there is no more time to demaunde and aske agréement On the other side it is impossible that man can euer haue wherewith to satisfie God sith that thorow his infidelytie peruerâ—â—tie he hath made y satisfaction of Iesus Christ vnprofitable for himselfe It followeth then necessarily y that prison is not purgatory but hel which hath no issue nor place of raunsome Wherefore that place concludeth nothing for the Purgatory And although it be sayde that man shall not come out of that prison vntill that he hath payed the vttermost farthing wée must not therefore conclude y he shall come out at any time but rather that he shall neuer come out For that manner of speaking is very common in the Scripture and ought to be vnderstanded as y which is written of y Rauen which Noe did sende out which retourned not agayne vntil that the waters were dryed vp It followeth not therefore that hée retourned agayne at any time afterwards And Saynt Augustine expoundeth that same place eueâ— as that which is written by that same Euangelyst speaking of Ioseph saying that he knew not the Virgin Mary vntil she had brought foorth hir first begotten son We must not conclude by these words with Helâ—â—dius that he hath knowen hir afterwards For he meaneth none other thing but that he knew hir not wheÌ„ she â—â—re Iesus Christ But it followeth not therefore that he hath knowen hir afterwards Or otherwise he should be forced to conclude that Iesus Christ shall reigne no more after that he shall haue put all his enemyes vnder his feete therefore it is written that the Lord hath sayd vnto him Sitte thou on my right hand vntill I put all thine enemies thy footstoole Thou doest then sée that the exposition of Saint Augustine ouerthroweth yours And that which I say of that place must be also vnderstanded of that which is writtâ—â— afterwards of the seruaunt which would not haue compassion vpon his companion nor forgiue him the debt Ther is no difference but y Iesus Christ by that example declareth vnto vs that we must not hope to obteine pardon of God except we haue done first all our endeauour to obteine it of those whom we haue offended and to satisfie and become friends agayne with them Also in lyke manner by the other he declareth vnto vs that we ought to haue no more hope if we doe not pardon those which shall offend vs. Thomas We must not then by that reckoning tary to pay our debts and to amend the iniuryes done vnto our neighbours vntil we be dead for to make satisfaction afterwardes in Purgatory to the Priestes vnto whome the wrong was not done and the debts were not due Theophilus Euen as by that example Iesus Christe exhorteth euery one of vs to agree with our neighbour during this lyfe So he admonisheth vs to doe the lyke towardes GOD vsing the very same similytude in the Gospell after Saynct Luke Declaring vnto vs thereby that if wee doe knowe howe to prouide and gâ—uâ—rne our affayres and dooinges after the worlde and to agrée with those vnto whom we are bound for to auoyde the losse and inconueniences into which we maye fall we ought by a more stronger reason to trauayle to doe so with God whilest that the time of our visitation indureth and that he giueth vs time and space to agrée with him thorow true repentance For after y the sentence shall be giuen there shall be no more remedie Thou maist then Eusebius knowe if thou doest well vnderstand the meaning of the words of Iesus Christ that they doe destroy Purgatory in stéede to buylde it For he giueth vs no hope that we may take order and remedie for our affaires and businesse after we be dead but he would that we dispose it both with God and among our selues before that we departe from hence and that we appeare before his face Thomas Thou must then séeke some other way Eusebius For as farre as I doe perceiue and sée that place will not helpe vppe thy Purgatory Eusebius Then before we goe out from that Euangelist tell me Theophilus wherefore Iesus Christ hath sayd that the sinne agaynst the holy Ghost is not pardoned in this worlde nor in the world to come Theophilus That poynt is one of the chiefest arguments which your Doctors doe put foorth for the defence of Purgatory But what wilt thou thereby conclude Eusebius That which Saint Gregory concluded who wayed and marked well those words and sayd that by that sentence is giuen vs to vnderstand that there are some sinnes which are pardoned in this world and others which are in the other world which out to be purged before the iudgement and for the which it is to be beléeued that there is a fire If in the other worlde there bée forgiuenesse of some sinnes it cannot be in Hell. Then of force it must be in Purgatory Theophilus I doe greatly meruayle of that Logicke which maketh such Silogismes and conclusions That sin is not pardoned in this world nor in the world to come There is then some which is pardoned in the worlde to come the which cannot be but in Purgatory Wherefore there is a Purgatory There is not a Sophister so ignoraunt which ought not to knowe that
to their nature for to render vnto God the honour which apperteyneth vnto him Euen so ought we to vnderstand of al other creatures which are all the liuely Images of God which declare vnto vs those meruailes and doe speake better hauing no mouth then the Images which haue mouthes and speake not and which crye not thorow their throate And therefore how many creatures may there be vnder the earth which do praise God in that manner And notwithstanding that the dampned and reprobate doe not praise him in that sort as he is praised of the elect yet they are neuerthelesse constrained to praise glorifâ—e him against their wills and they cannot doe nor speake any thing which serueth not vnto his honour and glory Eusebius Sith that by thy expositions thou hast already pulled out of my handes all the argumentes that I haue against thee I will display at once that which remaineth behinde What wilt thou say vpon that other place taken from the same booke in which is spoken of the holy citie of the celestial Hierusalem after this maÌ„ner ther shal enter into it no vncleane thing To which agreeth that which is written in Esay This shal be called the holy way no vncleane person shall goe thorow it Theophilus What wilt thou that I should aunswere thée vppon the same There is none that will deny but that he must be purged from all his sinnes before he can come vnto the eternall lyfe For flesh and bloud cannot inherite the kingdome of god But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory but by the bloude of Iesus Christ by the which we are washed purified when thorow the word of god thorow faith our hearts are sprinkled Therefore sayd Iesus Christ vnto his disciples you are cleane bicause of the words which you haue heard We are purged when we obteine remission of our sinnes and that the Lorde forgetteth them not imputing them vnto vs and remembring them according to that which is written Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiuen whose sins are couered Blessed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth no sinne Thomas I doe greatly feare Eusebius sith that thou art already come vnto the Apocalips but that thou wilt be by and by at the ende of thy knowledge For that is the ende of the new Testament and of all the canonicall Scripture Hillarius I beléeue that he hath conducted and lead vs euen vnto the Apocalips for to bury his Purgatory to the ende we may helpe him to sing his Requiescant in pace For I beleeue that he will dye héere and that hée shall passe no further Your Doctors doe write that after the Iudgement Purgatory and hell shal be all one But I beléeue that that Purgatory which thou wouldest haue proued in the Apocalips to be none other thing then those pondes of fire and brimstone in which the beast which hath engendered Purgatory is cast with hir false Prophets into the eternall bottomlesse pitte Theophilus What sayst thou Eusebius to the same Hast thou no more refuge Or whether thy arriere woorde bee altogether disconfited Eusebius I haue no more wherewith to reuenge me except I shew foorth that place of Saint Peter which witnesseth that the spirite of Iesus Christ preached vnto the spirites which were in prisen By the which prison I cannot vnderstand but Purgatory or the Lymbe At the leastwise it must bee that thou doest allowe the one or the other Theophilus That obiection commeth well to purpose for to aunswere also to the question of Thomas and to those which would haue a preaching of the Gospell in the other world Thomas I am very gladde that thou hast not forgotten it and that the occasion serueth so well Theophilus But before I will enter into it I will agayne admonish thee that I wil not define nor determine any thing of the estate of the dead besides that which the holy Scripture hath expressely reuealed vnto me Wherefore I do conclude that although it should be so that those estéeme it to be true yet neuertheles I shall not be of that opinion that any person should trust vnto it and that hée should leaue off to doe his endeauour in this worlde to seeke Iesus Christ sith that the Scripture doth not promise vnto vs cleerely any ether remedie nor any other preaching and reuelation for our saluation after this lyfe Therfore I would gladly allow in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory For notwithstanding that he did beleeue that in the same one might be purged from his sinnes yet neuerthelesse he sayth that it is most sure to gouerne himselfe so in this worlde that one néedeth not of that remedie in the other but to haue there his recourse and hope Thomas I am of thy opinion But expound vnto vs at the least the places that one may alleadge them to that purpose for to haue the intellygence thereoff Theophilus That which hath most shew is that which Eusebius hath touched in which is written that Christ hath once suffered for the sinnes the iust for the vniust for to bring vs to God and was killed as perteining to the flesh But was quickened in the spirite In which spirit he also went and preached vnto the spirites that were in prison which were in time passed disobedient when the long suffering abode exceeding patiently in the dayes of Noâ— c The other is by and by after where he saith that the wicked shall giue accompt vnto him that is ready to Iudge quicke and dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should be iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before god in the spirite Behold two places after which many learned men haue much trauayled and haue expounded them many wayes Yet neuerthelesse it hath bene most commonly taken for the Lymbe after that it was forged and inuented bicause that he speaketh of the spirits which were in prison or in the lower partes to whome Iesus Christ hath preached Those there haue vnderstanded by those spirits the soules of the auncient Fathers By the prison the Helles and the Lymbes in which they were deteined The others which are so affectioned after the Purgatory that there is not a place in all the Scripture which they endeauour not to wrest draw either wrongfully or ouerthwartly and haue taken that prison for Purgatory the spirits for the soules that are there But these héere haue lesse shew and doe put themselues more out of reason then the others Chiefely sith that there is none of the Auncients that I know not of those which haue beleeued the Purgatory that haue vnderstanded it after that manner and which haue alleadged it to that purpose Wherefore it is not needeful to aunswere them any further But for to come to the exposition of those places I will first aduertise you that there are