Lordships whether or not their Lordships would allow him to remit himself to the Depositions in writing And if it was not fit nor consisted with their Lordships pleasure he should go on to the best of his memory and if he keep not the very words he should keep the sence And this he said was that he might not vary from any thing that was in his written Deposition Mr. Maynard to induce their Lordships thereunto instanced That if a man writes a thing in a Book and he after produced as a Witness the Witness may have leave to look on his own Book much more when he is examined and there can be no suspition of fraud in this Whence my Lord of Strafford inferred That this Gentleman desired my Lord Traquair should desire that which my Lord himself did not desire The Lord Traquair then proceeded and said All that he remembred in this particular to the best of his memory was upon occasion of a Debate at York at the Kings Majesties last being there where it was required That he should make that same relation before the Peers who were to meet the next day after that he had made at the Council-Board here Some question having been made what should be the ground or occasion of this relation again since it was conceived the business was not in the same condition it was at the time of making his first relation Because as it was alledged at the time of making this relation that it was only of Demands and these Demands had been represented by the Commons of Parliament to His Majesty with other Demands and likewise in Parliament they had made these Demands pass into an Act It was therefore represented by some that there was not a necessity of making the same relation he had before But of the Demands only and not the Case of the business as it stood before And upon this wherein he shall not be obliged to words but something to this sence my Lord of Strafford expressed That he conceived That the unreasonable Demands of Subjects in Parliament was a ground for the King to put himself into a posture or to this sence and his Lordship repeated and explained it That the unreasonable Demands of Subjects was a ground for the King to put himself into a posture of War Being asked Whether it was spoken of Demands in Parliament His Lordship Answered It was that the unreasonable Demands of His Subjects in Parliament c. for it was on the Scotch business they were speaking Being asked where this was spoken He Answered It was spoken before the meeting of the Peers at the Council which was convened and he believes his Majesty was present Being directed to repeat the words again His Lordship said the words were That the unreasonable Demands of Subjects in Parliament for it was on the Scotch Demands my Lord conceived might be a ground for the Kings Majesty to put himself into a posture of War Being asked Whether these Demands of the Scots were not in Parliament He Answered That all the Demands made to the Kings Commissioner are in Parliament or by the Parliament and here he said he was forced to make a little digression if he Answered to this for the Parliaments there use not that way that the Parliament doth here For he being the Kings Commissioner Propositions and Demands and Articles were made for him which are the preparatory ways of Parliaments and some Commissioners from the Gentry and Nobility made motions and demands to him in private before they were voted in publique And of them all he was tyed to make an account All were made in Parliament or by Warrant of Parliament or by some Body of the Parliament Being asked whether some of the Lords then present did not declare and express themselves to be of a contrary opinion He Answered That truly as he believed the occasion of this came upon this debate and he believed there were some of the Lords of the Parliament by way of debate of another opinion as he remembred it And particularly my Lord Morton said he was of another opinion to the best of his memory Being Interrogated who first spake in Council after this relation He Answered That he believed in this there might be a mistake for at that time he had made no relation but was to make a relation next morning before the Peers and this was only the debate whether he should make relation or not But at that time at York no relation was made before the Council but before the Peers next morning Being Asked But after the Relation made to the Peers Who then spake first He Answered That truly he could not tell Being Asked Whether he could tell who spake first at Whitehal He Answered That it is very well known to a great many Lords here that he by His Majesties Command made a Narrative of the Demands made to him in Parliament by the Subjects of Scotland In which Relation he hoped my Lords memory would serve he left the Commissioners who were coming up by Warrant from His Majesty on Petition to give a Reason of their Demands This he did and it was his greatest care to do it faithfully and ingenuously without burdening of any whom it concerned and to burden his memory who spake first and who spake last he could not tell but on debate of the business something was proposed to the Table and every man declared his Opinion and he thinks they all agreed in one but who spake first and who last he knows not Being Asked Whether he remembred the words my Lord of Strafford spake at the making of that Relation to the Privy-Council He Answered That he remembers that which he hopes all my Lords well remember on that Relation of his the Kings Majesty being then present in Person was gratiously pleased to take notice of that he the Deponent had there affirmed That some one he thinks his name was Cunningham was sent from the Parliament of Scotland to supplicate His Majesty to allow some of their own members to come up to His Presence and present their Demands The King was pleased it should be so and when they were all of the same Opinion the King condescended to it and to the best of his remembrance it was consented to by my Lord of Strafford and the whole Board That at their coming up if they should not give good Reasons and satisfaction for their Demands they would be assistant to His Majesty to put him in a posture to reduce them to their due Obedience But he cannot tye himself to words Being Asked What was meant by a Posture He Answered A posture of Warr he believed must needs be a capacity and Power to reduce them to Obedience Being desired upon my Lord of Straffords motion to repeat the words again He Answered That he made a Narrative Relation and a Narrative Relation only and the Commissioners whom His Majesty was pleased to condescend to
probable Grounds we are accountable only for our industry or remisness but in judgment We are deeply responsible to God Almighty for it's Rectitude or Obliquity in Cases of Life the Judge is God's Steward of the Parties blood and must give a strict account for every drop But as I told you Mr. Speaker I will not insist long upon the Ground of Difference in me now from what I was formerly The truth on 't is Sir the same Ground whereupon I with the rest of the Five to whom you first committed the Consideration of my Lord Strafford brought down our Opinion That it was fit he should be Accused of Treason upon the same Ground I was engaged with earnestness in his Prosecution and had the same Ground remained in that force of belief with me which till very lately it did I should not have been tender in his Condemnation But truly Sir to deal plainly with you that Ground of our Accusation That Spur to our Prosecution and that which should be the basis of my judgment of the Earl of Strafford as unto Treason is to my understanding quite vanisht away This it was Mr. Speaker His Advising the King to employ the Army of Ireland to reduce England This I was assured would be proved before I gave my consent to his Accusation I was confirmed in the same belief during the Prosecution and fortified in it most of all since Sir Henry Vane's preparatory Examination by the assurances which that worthy Member Mr. Pym gave me that his Testimony would be made convincing by some Notes of what passed at that Iunto concurrent with it which I ever understanding to be of some other Councellor you see now prove but a Copy of the same Secretaries Notes discovered and produc'd in the manner you have heard and those such disjoynted Fragments of the Venemous part of Discourses no Results no Conclusions of Counsels which are the only things that Secretaries should Register there being no use at all of the other but to Accuse and to bring men into danger But Sir this is not that which overthrows the Evidence with me concerning the Army of Ireland nor yet that all the rest of the Iunto upon their Oaths remember nothing of it But this Sir which I shall tell you is that which works with me under favour to an utter overthrow of his Evidence as unto that of the Army of Ireland before whilst I was a Prosecutor and under tie of Secrecy I might not discover any weakness of the Cause which now as a Judge I must Mr. Secretary was examined thrice upon Oath at the preparatory Committee The first time he was questioned to all the Interrogatories and to that part of the Seventh which concerns the Army of Ireland He said positively in these words I cannot Charge him with that But for the rest he desires time to recollect himself which was granted him Some days after he was Examined a second time and then deposes these words concerning the King's being Absolved from Rules of Government and so forth very clearly But being prest to that part concerning the Irish Army He said again I can say nothing to that Here we thought we had done with him till divers weeks after my Lord of Northumberland and all others of the Iunto denying to have heard any thing concerning those words Of reducing England by the Irish Army It was thought fit to Examine the Secretary once more and then he deposes these words to have been said by the Earl of Strafford to His Majesty You have an Army in Ireland which you may Imploy here to reduce or some word to that sense this Kingdom Mr. Speaker these are the Circumstances which I confess with my Conscience thrust quite out of doors that Grand Article of our Charge concerning his desperate Advice to the King of Employing the Irish Army here Let not this I beseech you be driven to an Aspersion upon Mr. Secretary as if he should have Sworn otherwise than he knew or believed he is too worthy to do that only let thus much be inferred from it that he who twice upon Oath with time of recollection could not remember any thing of such a business might well a third time mis-remember somewhat in this business the difference of one letter here for there or that for this quite alters the Case the latter also being more probable since it is confest of all hands that the Debate then was concerning a War with Scotland and you may remember that at the Bar he once said To employ there And thus Mr. Speaker I have faithfully given you an account what it is that hath blunted the edge of the Hatchet or Bill with me towards my Lord of Strafford This was that whereupon I Accused him with a free heart Prosecuted him with earnestness and had it to my understanding been proved should have condemned him with Innocence Whereas now I cannot satisfie my Conscience to do it I profess I can have no notion of any bodies intent to subvert the Laws Treasonably or by force and this design of Force not appearing all his other wicked Practises cannot amount so high with me I can find a more easie and more natural Spring from whence to derive all his other Crimes than from an intent to bring in Tyranny and to make his own Posterity as well as Us Slaves as from Revenge from Pride from Avarice from Passion and Insolence of Nature But had this of the Irish Army been proved it would have diffused a Complexion of Treason over all it would have been a Withe indeed to bind all those other scattered and lesser branches as it were into a Faggot of Treason I do not say but the rest may represent him a man as worthy to die but perhaps worthier than many a Traytor I do not say but they may justly direct Us to Enact That they shall be Treason for the future But God keep me from giving Judgment of Death on any man and of Ruine to his innocent Posterity upon a Law made a Posteriori Let the Mark be set on the door where the Plague is and then let him that will enter die I know Mr. Speaker there is in Parliament a double Power of Life and Death by Bill a Judicial Power and a Legislative the measure of the one is what 's legally just of the other what is Prudentially and Politickly fit for the good and preservation of the whole But these two under favour are not to be confounded in Judgment We must not piece up want of legality with matter of convenience not the defailance of prudential fitness with a pretence of legal Justice To Condemn my Lord of Strafford Judicially as for Treason my Conscience is not assured that the matter will bear it And I do it by the Legislative Power my reason consultively cannot agree to that since I am perswaded neither the Lords nor the King will pass the Bill and consequently that Our passing it will be
time or no. The Lord High Steward answered that their Lordships Commandment is to let his Lordship know That if the House of Commons proceed not by their Members to manage the Evidence this day then what his Lordship hath to say to this House may be put off to another time And so their Lordships Adjourned to the House above by which is meant the House where the Lords use to sit in Parliament and appointed the next morning to proceed in this business The Second day Tuesday March 23. 1640 THeir Lordships being set the Lord Steward recited in brief the proceedings of the day before adding that naturally and properly it belongs in the next place for those whom the House of Commons have deputed to manage their Evidence in pursuance of the Articles of Impeachment to begin the work of the day Then Mr. Pym one of the Committee appointed for the management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords We stand here by the Commandment of the Knights Citizens and Burgesses now assembled for the Commons in Parliament And we are ready to make good that Impeachment whereby Thomas Earl of Strafford stands charged in their Name and in the Name of all the Commons of England with High Treason This My Lords is a Great Cause and we might sink under the weight of it and be astonished with the Lustre of this Noble Assembly if there were not in the Cause strength and vigour to support it self and to encourage us It is the Cause of the King it concerns His Majesty in the Honour of His Government in the Safety of His Person in the Stability of His Crown It is the Cause of the Kingdom It concerns not only the Peace and Prosperity but even the Being of the Kingdom We have that piercing Eloquence the Cries and Groans and Tears and Prayers of all the Subjects assisting us We have the three Kingdoms England and Scotland and Ireland in Travail and Agitation with us bowing themselves like the Hindes spoken of in Iob to cast out their Sorrows Truth and Goodness My Lords they are the Beauty of the Soul they are the Perfection of all created Natures they are the Image and Character of God upon the Creatures This Beauty Evil Spirits and Evil Men have lost but yet there are none so wicked but they desire to march under the shew and shadow of it though they hate the reality of it This unhappy Earl now the Object of your Lordships Justice hath taken as much care hath used as much cunning to set a face and countenance of Honesty and Justice upon his Actions as he hath been negligent to observe the rules of Honesty in the Performance of all these Actions My Lords it is the greatest baseness of wickedness that it dares not look in his own Colours nor be seen in its natural Countenance But Virtue as it is amiable in all respects so the least is not this That it puts a Nobleness it puts a Bravery upon the Mind and lifts it above Hopes and Fears above Favour and Displeasure it makes it always uniform and constant to it self The Service Commanded me and my Colleagues here is to take off those Vizards of Truth and Uprightness which hath been sought to be put upon this Cause and to shew you his Actions and his Intentions in their own natural Blackness and Deformity My Lords He hath put on a Vizard of Truth in these words wherein he says That he should be in his Defence more careful to observe Truth than to gain Advantage to himself He says he would endure any thing rather than be saved by Falshoood It was a noble and brave Expression if it were really true My Lords He hath likewise put on the Vizard of Goodness on his Actions when he desires to recite his Services in a great many particulars as if they were Beneficial to the Common-wealth and State whereas we shall prove them Mischievous and Dangerous It is left upon me My Lords to take off these Vizards and Appearances of Truth and Goodness in that part of his Answer which is the Preamble And that I shall do with as much Faithfulness and Brevity as I can 1. The First thing My Lords that I shall observe in the Preamble is this That having recited all those great and honourable Offices which he hath done under His Majesty he is bold to affirm That he hath been careful and faithful in the Execution of them all My Lords If he might be his own Witness and his own Judge I doubt not but he would be Acquitted It is said in the Proverbs of the Adulterous Woman That she wipes her mouth and says she had done no Evil. Here is a wiping of the mouth here is a verbal expression of Honesty But My Lords the foulness and unjustness will never be wiped off neither from his Heart nor from his Actions I mean for the time past God may change him for the time to come That is the first thing I observe 2. My Lords In the second place out of his Apologetical Preamble I shall observe this He doth magnifie his own Endeavours in five particulars 1. That he hath Endeavoured the maintenance of Religion I may miss in words I shall not miss in sense 2. That he hath Endeavoured the Honour of the King 3. The Encrease of His Revenue 4. The Peace and Honour and Safety of the Kingdom 5. The Quiet and Peace of the People These are his five particulars and I shall give a short Answer to every one of them 1. For Religion My Lords we say and we shall prove that he hath been diligent indeed to favour Innovations to favour Superstitions to favour the Incroachments and Usurpations of the Clergy But for Religion it never received any advantage by him nay a great deal of hurt 2. For the Honour of the King My Lords We say it is the Honour of the King that He is the Father of His People that He is the Fountain of Justice and it cannot stand with His Honour and Justice to have His Government Stain'd and Polluted with Tyranny and Oppression 3. For the Increase of His Revenue It is true there may be some Addition of Sums but we say There is no Addition of Strength nor Wealth because in those parts where it hath been increased this Earl hath taken the greatest share himself And when he hath spoiled and ravined on the People he hath been content to yield up some part to the King that he might with more security enjoy the rest 4. For the Strength and Honour and Safety of the Kingdom My Lords In a time of Peace he hath let in upon us the Calamities of War Weakness Shame and Confusion 5. And for the Quiet of the Subjects He hath been an Incendiary he hath Armed us amongst our selves and made us weak and naked to all the World besides This is that I shall answer to the second Head of his Apology 3. The Third is
Lordships satisfaction will in good time be given That though this particular is not Treason yet all the parts of it amount to the Subversion of the Laws of the Kingdom That is prest as Treason and this as an Evidence That for the second Commission it follows as the other if he procured the one he is guilty as if he procured both it being the same Power still THE Second Article The Charge THat shortly after the obtaining of the said Commission dated the 21st of March in the Eighth year of His Maiesties Reign to wit the last day of August then next following he the said Earl to bring His Maiesties Liege People into a dislike of His Maiesty and of His Government and to terrifie the Iustices of the Peace from executing of the Laws He the said Earl being then President as aforesaid and a Iustice of Peace did publickly at the Assizes held for the County of York in the City of York in and upon the said last day of August declare and publish before the People there attending for the Administration of Iustice according to Law and in the presence of the Iustices sitting That some of the Iustices were all for Law and nothing would please them but Law but they should find That the Kings little Finger should be heavier than the Loyns of the Law WE are come now to the second Article touching words spoken of the King That the Kings little Finger should be heavier than the Loyns of the Law For that we desire to produce Witnesses and they will shew how my Lord of Strafford is mistaken in his Answer Or if he says true As he slanders the King in one sense so he slanders the Law in another Witnesses produced William Long Sworn and interrogated What words he heard my Lord of Strafford speak concerning the comparison between the Kings little Finger and the Loyns of the Law On what occasion Where and at what time Answered When Sir Thomas Leyton was Sheriff of York-shire 1632. as he takes it My Lord of Strafford being there he heard his Lordship say these words That some nothing would content but Law but they should know The Kings little Finger should be heavier than the Loyns of the Law And this was spoken in the place where the Judges sate in York-Castle at the Assizes that year The occasion he knew not but it was publickly spoken and as he thought my Lord did not then sit on the Bench but stood at the Barr. Sir Thomas Leyton was Sworn and being thick of hearing the Manager was directed by my Lord Steward to interrogate him to the effect aforesaid Who Answered My Lord said Some would not be satisfied but by Law but they should have Law enough for they should find the Kings little Finger to be heavier than the Loyns of the Law His Lordship being on the Bench then with the Judges at that time and abundance of the Country being there then at Lammas Assizes at the Castle-Bench And he thinks it was 1632. or 1633. but he knew not the occasion Marmaduke Potter having been examined as a preparatory Witness and since being deceased it was desired his Deposition might be read The Lord Steward declared That the Examinations of those preparatory Witnesses should be read in case any should be dead To prove Marmaduke Potter's death Thomas Harrison was Sworn Being interrogated what he knew concerning the death of Marmaduke Potter Answered That since his coming out of York-shire he heard a report from his Neighbours that M. P. is dead and buried That he the Deponent lived a Mile from the said Marmaduke Potter which is Ninescore and Ten Miles from this place but he heard no particular of the day of his burial The Examination of Marmaduke Potter Gent. taken Ianuary 1640. to the 10th and 11th Inter. He saith That about eight years since when Sir Thomas Leyton was Sheriff of York-shire he heard the Earl of Strafford make a Speech publickly at the Bench at Summer-Assizes and he said then That the Kings little Finger should be heavier than the Loyns of the Law I know not whether it were material for me to Answer this or no but as the Charge is laid it is impossible I should be guilty of the words For it is laid to be the last of August next following the 21st of March in the Eighth year of His Majesties Reign which falls out to be when I was in Ireland But I desire not to stand on such Niceties but that Truth may appear The words confessed in my Answer are quite contrary being That the little Finger of the Law was heavier than the Kings Loyns And that I set forth in my Answer and the occasion of them which these Witnesses do not or else will not remember The occasion was this There came divers Levies in the year when Sir Thomas Leyton was Sheriff for divers great sums of money for issues in the Knighting-business on some that had compounded and paid their money to me the Receiver of that money then and by me answered in the Exchequer yet these Issues came down through some Errour above and were levied with very great rigour by Sir Thomas Leyton When I came down I spake with Sir Thomas Leyton and shewed him how the men were injured and did desire him to return the money to them again and I would see him discharged in the Exchequer which he was contented to do And then to give satisfaction to the Country I told them That that Commission was a Commission of Grace and Favour and that their Compounding with the King was an ease to them and much greater ease than by a proceeding at Law would have fallen on them the very first Issues being three or four times more than they had compounded the whole for And thereupon I applyed that Speech That the little Finger of the Law was heavier than the Loyns of the King For if I should then have fallen to threaten them I had spoken contrary to the end I had proposed which was to incline them And further that not one of the Witnesses spoke any thing to the occasion of the Speech That it is long since and was never yet complained of and that man must have a stronger memory than I that will undertake to swear positively the very words spoken seven or eight years ago And under favour he ought to have better Ears than Sir Thomas Leyton who appears to have such an infirmity in hearing that he must now be whoopt to at the Barr before he can hear and sure his sense of hearing is much decayed else he could not have heard me speaking at that distance to the place where the Sheriff sits in an open place as far distant as from the Barr where I now stand to my Lord Steward or very near Dr. Duncombe being asked Whether he came accidentally to York that day and what he heard the words repeated to be He Answered He came from
Lord Robert Digby being asked Whether at the Parliament at Dablin or any other time he ever heard my Lord of Strafford speak those words He Answered That he never did that he doth not know whether he was present at that time or no that he did diligently wait but doth not remember the words nor occasion but he thinks he was not present Your Lordships have heard my Lord of Strafford's Defence with much patience That he hath said nothing that takes off the Charge but some things that aggravate it That he would answer the Particulars as his Lordship had propounded them And first he observed That his Lordship denies not the words Charged which makes greater way for proof of them He informs of the ill Fortune of other Governors that one was Attainted and the Informations afterwards retracted that my Lord of Faulkland was complained of yet a Noble and good Governor against whom or any Deputy we can say nothing But what is this for my Lord Strafford to say Others were questioned therefore he is Innocent These were complaints of particular men This against my Lord of Strafford is the complaint of all the Commons of England It is said here is no Treason in this Article no Argument of Treason but the Commons never pressed these words singly and dividedly to be Treason but take all together they discover that Disposition that Counsel that Resolution that my Lord of Strafford had taken on him the ruine and subversion of the Common Law in both Kingdoms It is said an Answer is put in and no Replication It is true in other Courts if you go on Bill and Answer the Answer is taken pro Confesso but the Commons desire not to bind up my Lord of Strafford with Formalities but by the substance of their Charge they have averred their Charge which is as much as a denial of his Answer To there being another Government in Ireland than in England my Lord himself spoke of it by himself but he thinks it will not be material to this purpose for whatsoever it is some Government there is but the Speech of my Lord tends to take away all Laws for they must expect Laws as from a Conqueror in that Limitation For his referring it to the time taking it in the sense that the then Conqueror might do what he pleased that 's true and justifiable But that is to suppose the words otherwise than they are being spoken not of the Kings that were before but of His Majesty that now is My Lord would make an Argument his words were well accepted because Mr. Slingsby heard nothing to the contrary the words had much Acrimony and Sharpness and we dare not believe the Mayor of Dublin durst tell my Lord of Strafford so or forbear any Complement to him though he had been displeased with him But if that be material the Witnesses that have proved the words will tell Your Lordships it was resented with a great deal of Grief and Sorrow in all the hearers His Lordship justifies what was spoken of the Charters on these grounds First That the Witness said they were Antiquated Charters and therefore did not bind whereas it was a scornful Epithite their Antiquated and Worm-eaten Charters did not bind It is said they were void through negligences questioned at Council-Table complained of in Parliament But they must take the words to pieces not altogether Had he spoken of the Charters alone that they were void Charters it were no crime no indiscretion But take it with the occasion and connexion it admits of no such mitigation or interpretation He tells them they are a conquered Nation and they must expect Laws as from a Conqueror And they are a conquered Nation and their Charters are no further good than the King pleases It is said It is strict to answer presently what may be objected and the Examinations are extrajudicial we doubt not but Your Lordships will justifie-our Proceedings nor is there any strictness in them for if a man be questioned of a Crime and several Evidences be brought to make up this Crime some concurrent some precedent they will be allowed of in other Courts It being never used to set forth in a Charge all circumstances of Proof The main is produced and this is an Evidence to prove that and it is within the Charge for there is a Charge that he corrupts the Laws and Government Then my Lord produces divers Witnesses who speak in a different sense Sir Robert King heard nothing another that he remembers nothing and if he remembers nothing it may as well be said of the rest That there might be something they did not hear or remember for they speak no more but they did not remember There may be something they forgot as well as another forget all My Lord Ranulagh says He remembers the first words and something as spoken of the second but he cannot tell how far So that there is rather a doubt that something was spoken to that purpose than otherwise The Lord Digby was not present Sir George Wentworth remembers not the words he hath a Copy of the Speech and is confident the words were not spoken But they were not spoken in the first Speech whereof there was a Copy when the Petition for the Laws was delivered And this is an Aggravation against my Lord of Strafford that by his own shewing there was an Exception taken when he spoke in a milder sense and to advance His Majesties Government it had an ill impression and was taken notice of and the Exception delivered to himself Now if after Exception taken to a Speech delivered in Parliament cloathed with so much mildness he in the same Parliament as soon as Subsidies are granted shall tell them they are a conquered Nation and shall not have Graces but such Laws as the King will give them This puts the Offence in higher terms than before so far are they from mitigation of the Offence We desire Witnesses may be heard concerning the circumstance of time Mr. Fitzgarret produced and Sworn Was asked whether he knew of a Petition delivered to the Earl of Strafford by the Commons concerning the Laws and how in time it followed the publick Speech at the beginning of the Parliament and what Answer was given to it He Answered That he was then a Member of the Commons House and present when the Petition was delivered But after the House of Commons had given the King six Subsidies the House of Commons entred into consideration of Petitioning for such things as were necessary and expedient for the Common-wealth as they thought this Petition was preferred to the Lord Deputy a good space of time after the Subsidies were granted and Advertisement sent to England of the good service done in obtaining those Subsidies from the House of Commons That he remembers not any part of the Answer given There was an Answer given in Writing either at Council-Table or in full Parliament from the House of
the Subject and yet they go on hand in hand and long may they do so long may they go in that Agreement and Harmony which they should have done hitherto and I trust shall be to the last not rising one above another in any kind but kept in their own wonted Channels For if they rise above these heights the one or the other they tear the Banks and overflow the fair Meads equally on one side and other And therefore I do and did allow and ever shall for my part desire they may be kept at that Agreement and perfect Harmony one with another that they may each watch for and not any way watch over the other And therefore this being a Care of the Prerogative as long as it goes not against the Common Law of the Land it is the Law of the Land and binds as long as it transgresses not the Fundamental Law of the Land being made provisionally for preventing of a Temporary Mischief before an Act of Parliament can give a Remedy And this Condition must be implyed That it must be binding provided it be according to the Law of the Land I instance in that Exception that King Iames would take when a man saies he will do a thing as far as he may with Conscience and Honour because in Persons of Conscience and Honour those words are always implied That the Wisdom of our Ancestors hath prevented this Mischief That for a mis-word a Peer of England should lose his Priviledge being as great as any Subjects that live under a King that is not a free Prince of the Empire And the Preamble of a Statute in Queen Elizabeths time the very bent whereof is to take away the dawning of words without any further Act which Preamble was read to their Lordships And so I conclude the words were unwisely spoken because they may be brought to a hard sense but not Criminal for none of them swear any thing done in breach of the Law I except against my Lord Kilmallock's swearing Sir George Ratcliffe to be my Eccho as if he knew my thoughts and against Mr. Hoy as a party concerned in Interest though not in name in a Suit that is or will be brought against me before your Lordships come to the end of the Charge I confess Mr. Waldron's Testimony makes me stagger being the only person could make me believe I said the words I except against Sir Pierce Crosbies Testimony having been formerly Sentenced in Star-Chamber and I know what Sir Pierce Crosby swore there and that I never Communed with him so far as to have such a Discourse as is mentioned in all my life To the Suit in the Castle-Chamber against the Earl of Corke on pretence of breaking an Order of Council-Table I conceive it had relation to an Order made in King Iames his time 20. March 11 Iac. which I desire may be read being now produced as also the Information there exhibited that so I may justifie my Answer in that point of it That the Suit was not upon that Act alone but for other matters also but that was admitted by the Committee And so the reading of them was waved To that Point of Mr. Waldron's Testimony touching the offering of a Lease to the Person concerned rendring the half value I conceive this Circumstance qualifies the words it being according to Law To demonstrate which the Statue was read That no Lease shall be granted upon which less is reserved to the Lessor during 21 years then the moiety of the Lands value And so his Lordship concluded his Defence and the Manager made Reply in substance as followeth That this Article proves my Lord of Strafford's Intention to subvert the Laws That the long time spent in maintaining the Jurisdiction of the Council-Board is the least part of the Article That though these words singly be admitted not to be Treason yet several words and actions must prove the general Charge of his endeavouring to subvert the Laws To the several Provisoes in that Act of Parliament mentioned by my Lord of Strafford concerning words we observe That the words Charged are only matter of Evidence to his general Intention of subverting the Laws And whereas he says they are not charged in time the Commons bring this as done long ago and continuing to this day if he were not prevented so they take him Flagrante Crimine To the Practise of the Council-Table before his time his Witnesses have proved their proceedings in Cases of the Church and Plantations But in other Cases we deny it for it is contrary to Law That admitting the extent given by the Instructions to Church-Causes though the Proclamation hath no such exception Yet it comes not to the Case of my Lord of Cork who claimed the thing in question as a Lay-Impropriation derived to the Crown by the Statute of Dissolution That my Lord of Strafford makes this Government Arbitrary in threatening the Earl of Cork to lay him by the heels if he went to Law whereas the Order gave him liberty That the Original Order in my Lord of Corke's Cause was drawn with these words put out concerning Gwyn's giving Security and that justifies my Lord of Cork's Testimony That notwithstanding my Lord of Strafford's justification of his words That neither Law nor Lawyers should question his Orders This is to assume an Arbitrary Power for if his Orders be legal the Law must justifie them if not question them That the words Of making an Act of State equal to an Act of Parliament are proved by my Lord of Corke and those spoken are a confirmation of those before and expresly within the Article The latter point thereof recites that he spake the words at other times This altogether justifie my Lord of Corke's Testimony though a single Witness and prove that my Lord of Strafford hath made it a habit to speak such words That they have one Witness more and that is my Lord of Strafford himself who says He never spake any thing but truth and said That he would make an Act of State equal to an Act of Parliament We desire that for the taking off the Aspersion cast on Sir Pierce Crosby my Lord of Castlehaven may be examined touching the words alledged to be spoken in his presence The Earl of Castlehaven being sworn and examined touching the said words Answered That it is a business past long ago and but a Table-discourse and he took not much notice of the Circumstances But as he remembers there fell a difference between my Lord of Strafford and Sir Pierce Crosby within three or four months after my Lords coming over and that as well as he can remember my Lord of Strafford did say That an Act of State was equal to an Act of Parliament but he remembers not the occasion That the Justice of the Order in my Lord of Corke's Cause is not material or whether within the Jurisdiction of the Council-Table the Charge being That upon such
their coming up to give Reasons of their Demands That the Scotch Subjects had made in Parliament This being the State of the Question and the Kings Majesty gratiously condescending that some of their own Members should come up to represent their own Demands It was put to the Question What should be done And this was the Conclusion to his Memory there being no Clerk nor Register there wherein my Lord of Strafford was no more involved then the rest that if these Commissioners should not at their coming up give good satisfaction touching their Demands the Council would be assistant to His Majesty to put Him into a Posture of Warr to reduce them to their Obedience He will not say these very words were reported again to my Lords at York but the Sence and way of them was My Lord Digby did here desire leave of their Lordships to represent something on Consideration of that which was last in Question touching the Witnesses helping themselves by their former Examinations He did forbear it before in regard he saw this Honorable Lord for his own particular did not insist on it But for the future he thought it very necessary to represent it to their Lordships as a thing not only much concerning the validity of the Proofs but likewise very much conducing to the honour of many of their Lordships here and concerning the validity of their Proofs he shall humbly offer this to their Lordships That this noble Lord was often pleased to say That he hoped he should not be tied to Words Now their Lordships may be pleased to consider the Charges of the present Articles are consisting principally of Words to say he shall not be tied to Words is as much as to say he shall not be tied to the Question And this he offered only concerning the validity of the Proofs But concerning the honor of some Noble Lords that sit here he confesses he is very zealous in that when he thinks of it that diverse of them have been Examined formerly upon Oath and upon Oath set down without great Leasure and Recollection of the truth of things and now whether so many Months after being called again suddenly on Oath to give account of these Words the best memory may not be subject to variance and discrepancie and may not forget some prejudice and disadvantage to those noble Lords honor he humbly submits to their Lordships And Mr. Glyn added That this Noble Lord hath prevented him My Lord of Traquair hath not vary'd from his Examinations in substance but if he had under favour they must stand upon his Examinations and it is Legal and Just and Ordinary and never a Judge in England will deny it that if a Witness be examined and varies his Examinations shall be read to his face and it is no prejudice for the party is ready to explain himself And he said he was about the offering it and now must offer it according to the trust reposed in him by the House of Commons that if it stand with their Occasions the Examinations may be read and under favour they may To this my Lord of Strafford Answered That here is a Question now stirred that hath been hitherto denied for he could leave out any Examinations taken and certainly as he conceives it was never intended that these Examinations should be made use of They were preparatory and no other And by this learned Gentlemans leave whereas he speaks of the manner of proceedings on Tryals of ordinary Felonies he the Defendant hath seen some of them and in all particulars where the Witness hath been viva voce he never heard Examinations Read But Mr. Glyn averred what he said before That if there be Examinations taken of a Felon at Common Law and the Witness comes viva voce and the Kings Council takes advantage they do Read the Examinations taken And here the Lord Steward declared That it is not denyed to any to recollect himself My Lord Traquair thereupon further alledged That this was the first time he was ever Examined upon Oath and if he hath been occasion of any Scruple he desired Pardon but it was long since he was Examined and he could not see his Depositions and lest he should have erred in his Words he desired this favour Mr. Whitlock further added That they must affirm this to be the ordinary and constant practice and if their Lordships doubt it it shall be made good and he hopes the Commons of England shall not be in worse Case then an ordinary Prosecutor And then offered the Deposition of my Lord Morton he being taken ill at that time to this Point By which means my Lord of Strafford observed himself to be debarred of Cross-Examining him And Mr. Whitlock Answered And so is every Prisoner in the like Case Yet my Lord of Strafford desired He might reserve to himself the benefit of Cross-examining him if he should see Cause But Mr. Whitlock said That under favour in this Case no Prisoner hath benefit of Cross-Examination where Examinations are read at Tryal And Mr. Glyn added That he perceived by my Lord of Strafford that he expected notice what Witnesses they were ready to produce and his Lordship knew what Witnesses will be necessary for his Defence and should be careful of them But Mr. Glyn said further That he thought never any Prisoner expected to know from the Prosecutor what Witnesses would be produced against him My Lord of Strafford confest he might easily mistake for never did so ignorant a Man in their Proceedings stand at the Bar But he conceived that if the other party do examine it stands with Reason they should give him notice of it else he cannot possibly Cross-Examine Mr. Whitlock thereunto replyed That their Examinations are taken preparatorily and it is according to Course of Law That if any Witnesses die or be necessarily absent their Examinations be used at the Tryal Yet my Lord of Strafford said He takes it That if these be those they call preparatory Examinations they ought not to be read but by an Order of the House So my Lord Steward put an end to this matter saying That if it can be the Witnesses by the Order of the House shall be Examined viva voce if not upon Faith made the Examinations are to be heard And then they proceeded to Read the Examinations of the Earl of Morton taken 23 Ianuary 1640. by vertue of and according to a Commission under the Great Seal of England issued in Parliament and dated 11 Ian. 1640. To the 103. Interrogatory This Examinant saith That he was present at York the Night before the meeting of the Great Council of the Peers of England then at a Debate before His Majesty touching the ground of that War against the Scots 104. He saith That at or in the said Debate he heard the Earl of Strafford in His Majesties presence say
Interrogated What he heard Sir George Ratcliffe speak concerning the Kings levying Money by force or to that purpose He Answered That the words he is to inform their Lordships of and on which he was formerly examined proceeded from Sir George Ratcliffe not to him privately and only but they were spoken in a Council of War when they were assembled together upon that service My Lord-Lieutenant arrived in Ireland in March was 12 Months and after his Lordship had spent some days in Ireland within which time he the Deponent with others were commanded to attend at a Council of War departed that Kingdom leaving direction behind him how this affair should be proceeded in in his Lordships absence and as he takes it in the beginning of April my Lord departed out of Ireland and not long after they being assembled in a Council of War there was occasion to speak of all preparations that should be for the raising of an Army of 8000 Foot and Provision for transportation of 1000 Horse which was the Army of Ireland at that time In these discourses they found there was a great deal of Treasure to be consumed and much Money required to supply the occasion It was computed and he thinks Sir George Ratcliffe had a privy hand in the computing of it how much charge would maintain the Army for a year and to the best of his remembrance it was computed at 270000 l. and odd which gave them occasion considering the Army to be transported out of Ireland was but in proportion â…“ of what was prepared in England to speak of the Charge that must be raised in England according to that proportion And they finding it to amount to so great a sum it fell into question how the King should be supplyed with Money for so great expence of Treasure if he were not supplyed by Parliament Sir George Ratcliffe Answered The King hath his Sword by his side and 30000 men at command and if he want money let no man pity him It was thereupon replyed and as he the Deponent takes it by himself how can Money be raised when the Scotch Army is on foot and so strong Sir George Answered We can make peace with the Scots when we list but that is the worst of evils and this is in substance as much as the Deponent can remember Whence Mr. Whitlock observed That their Lordships heard what passed from Sir George Ratcliffe in Words and Counsels and that their Lordships knew the nearness and relation between Sir George Ratcliffe and my Lord of Strafford and this was after direction was left for raising the Army and when my Lord of Strafford was come away himself it seems he had left his directions with Sir George Ratcliffe as it will appear by my Lords own words concurring with these And Mr. Maynard desired their Lordships to take notice of these words We can make peace with the Scots when we will it was not Sir George Ratcliffe alone Sir Tho. Barrington being Sworn and Interrogated what words passed from Sir George Wentworth to him About Englands being sick of peace c at what time it was and on what occasion He Answered That immediately after the last Parliament Sir George Wentworth had accidentally a discourse with him being a Gentleman with whom he the Deponent never had intercourse or interlocution before that time On some discourse betwixt them concerning the former Parliament in the close of his discourse he was pleased to express himself thus This Commonwealth is sick of Peace and will not be well till it be conquered again The application of these words he the Deponent said he must leave to their Lordships better Judgements he not being able to decide it And to the occasion according to the truth which shall be ever present with him he the Deponent said he would deliver it cleerly They had some occasion to discourse of the former Parliament and speaking now on his oath he must express that which otherwise he should not being the words of a private discourse which in the course of his life he hath ever avoided especially in the Case of a Gentleman They were in discourse of the former Parliament and the carriage of that and Sir George Wentworth was of one opinion and he the Deponent of another Sir George expressed himself in this sence That he conceived the Parliament had no intention to give the King Money he the Deponent said That if the Kings Majesty had pleased they had sate awhile together they had supplied him And on the close that expression fell from him that which he the Deponent said he shall not not need to repeat Sir Robert King being Interrogated what sense and apprehension was in my Lord Ranalaugh on the words that fell from Sir George Ratcliffe at the Council-Board He Answered That my Lord Ranalaugh did conceive there was an intention to take Money forcibly in England and was much troubled with the words and cast out some such Speeches That we shall turn our swords on them from whom we are descended and having cut their throats make way for our own safety or some such words Lord Ranalaugh being Interrogated what his sense was of these words spoken by Sir George Ratcliffe He Answered That the expression of these words and some other words that fell from my Lord-Lieutenant to himself before his Lordships departure out of Ireland made him doubt that there might be some danger intended by the transportation of the Army and it was not his sense alone for upon discourse betwixt others that were of the Council and himself the like apprehensions were amongst them as between my Lord President of Munster and him and also between Sir Adam Loftus and him Those that durst be free one to another did express their fears and apprehensions about it Being asked what the words were my Lord of Strafford spake to him on which the apprehensions were grounded He Answered That it was thus My Lord of Strafford at his last being in Ireland was pleased to say to him My Lord will you buy any Land I will sell you all the Land I have in Ireland To which he the Lord Ranalaugh Answered That he is not able to buy Land being in debt and God forbid his Lordship should sell his Land in Ireland Truly says he my Lord we are like to have a troublesome world and I am willing to part with it To which the Lord Ranalaugh replyed it will be hard then with us that have no Estates but in Ireland No my Lord says my Lord of Strafford I do not mean it so for I believe you will be quieter here than they will be in England But he doth not think that ever he spake these last words to Sir Robert King in his life Being asked How he expressed his sense of those words to Sir Robert King He Answered That the first discourse was from Sir George Ratcliffe the latter was from my Lord
to himself He apprehended there was some design as he feared in England and he had this reason for it too For in that condition they were then in they of the Council of Warr saw no possibility to make this Army in a readiness to invade Scotland within the time limited for by directions of my Lord of Strafford left with them they were to be ready at the Provincial Rendezvous by the 18 th of May and that by subsequent directions was forborn till 18 th Iune then they all met to march to the general Rendezvous The Arms Ammunition and Preparations could not be ready so soon nor were they in readiness till the end of Sept. following So that on the whole matter those amongst them that might be free their consultations all agreed that it might tend to the purposes here declared And from the time observed by my Lord Ranalaugh for the raising of the Army in Ireland Mr. Whitlock observed That it could not be intended for Scotland for no Army was raised in Scotland till some months after To prove the words spoken by the Lord of Strafford himself to shew his designe to bring the Army to England Sir Tho. German Comptroller of His Majesties Houshold being Interrogated whether he heard not the Earl of Strafford tell the King that the Parliament had denyed to supply him and had sorsaken him or words to that effect He Answered That he should humbly presume to crave one thing of their Lordships and it was briefly this There is nothing that he can be Interrogated upon in this Cause but it must fall within the cognizance and knowledge of many of my Lords here present who must needs remember all that he hath to say as well or perhaps better than he can himself His humble desire therefore to their Lordships is That if through distance of time and the weakness of his memory there be any thing that may be better remembred by some of their Lordships than is at this time by himself it may not be imputed to him as from a desire of concealing any part of the truth but a failor in memory and that their Lordships will believe of him that in this great Assembly he shall be very unwilling to speak any thing but that that shall perfectly occurr to his remembrance and that request granted he shall humbly answer to every thing And to the question he remembers very well that he was Interrogated upon the same terms heretofore that he is now His Answer was then as he takes it in these words That he remembred that he heard my Lord of Strafford say something of the Parliaments deserting or forsaking the King or something to that effect or purpose but he did not remember then what inference my Lord made upon it nor what he did conclude thereupon neither can he now call himself to further remembrance on that point than he then deposed The Earl of Bristol Sworn and Interrogated Whether he heard any words spoken by my Lord of Strafford That in this great distress of King and Kingdom the Parliament had refused to supply the King in the ordinary and usual way and that therefore the King might provide for the Kingdom by such ways as he thought fit and was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness and undutifulness of his people or to that effect He Answered That it is very true that about 12 months since by meer accident he had a private discourse with my Lord of Strafford and some months after had discourse with a Peer of this House my Lord Conway by name meerly to let him know the difference that was between some Tenants of my Lord of Straffords and himself the Earl of Bristol What use hath been made of it he doth not know But upon this he doth conceive he comes to be Interrogated It is almost Twelvemonths agoe since this discourse did happen yet afterwards he was called now a month or six weeks since and was examined on oath on several Interrogatories After he had well recollected himself he did set down for his memory what he could think of and out of those Notes and Papers he did then make his Answer Now his examination being upon oath he shall be very loath to depose particularly to words but to the effect of what passed And therefore he shall crave leave not out of his examinations but out of the words he then set down to read the effect of what he then spake for if a man be deprived of words and tell not the sense and coherence and subsequents he shall not do himself right but may do a great deal of wrong to the party accused and therefore though it be somewhat the longer he shall tell the circumstances It is true That after the disso lution of the last Parliament he had discourse accidentally with the Earl of Strafford but being many months since he cannot precisely depose unto the words that then passed But he remembers that speaking then together of the great distractions of those times Videlicet touching the present things that were then at Lambeth for it was just about that time of the Mutiny of some Soldiers against their Officers of the present great danger apprehended by the ensuing War as was feared of Scotland and of the said Parliament being broken without supplying the King he the Earl of Bristol did then in his discourse chiefly attribute these disorders to the breach of the Parliament And speaking what might be the best way for help in these distressed times he then conceived and said that he thought the best way to prevent any desperate undertakings would be to Summon a new Parliament that might quiet the times for the present The expectation thereof might quiet the Distempers at that time And as for the War of Scotland he did much fear the success of it unless the King should be assisted both with the Purse and Affections of his People And he Alleadging to my Lord of Strafford many Reasons for it conceiving it was not likely that our Nation lying under great Grievances should go willingly and chearfully to a War labouring under the same grievances with themselves My Lord of Strafford he must speak it and confess it very ingenuously seemed no way to dislike the Discourse but said he did not conceive it to be Counsellable at that time neither did the present dangers of the Kingdom which were not now imaginary but real and pressing admit of so slow and uncertain a remedy as a Parliament was for that the Parliament had in the great distress of the King and Kingdom refused now to supply the King by the ordinary and usual way of Subsidies and therefore the King must provide for the safety of his Kingdom by such wayes as He should think fit in his wisdom And he the Earl of Bristol doth remember that the said Earl of Strafford at the same time did use the Sentence Salus Reipublicae Suprema
Lex And further not to bind himself to words but to the sense at the same time the Earl of Strafford used these words or words to this effect That the King was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness and undutifulness of his People or rather as he conceives by the disaffection and stubborness of some particular men And this he said from his former Notes which he thought fit rather to use than to trust his Memory Being Asked Whether by particular Men he meant not particular members of the Parliament His Lordship Answered By his Troth he conceives so for he was speaking of the Parliament Edward Lord Newburgh being Sworn and Interrogated Whether he did not hear my Lord of Strafford speak these words to His Majesty That the Parliament in denying the King had given him advantage to supply himself by other wayes His Lordship Answered That those very words he never heard nor words to that effect But he hath Answered in his Deposition what he hath heard and he shall desire to speak a little before he Repeats it And this it is When he was Examined he did then speak that which occurred to his memory but since the agitation of this business something else hath come into his thoughts And if he shall speak that which his Conscience now tells him he shall desire my Lords that then Examined him and the Gentlemen not to misinterpret him if he shall add something to what he formerly delivered He cannot say whether when he heard these words the King was by or no for he doth not remember it But he very well remembers that after the breach of the last Parliament he heard at the Gallery or Council-Table but he rather believes now at Council-Table some words to this effect That seeing the Parliament had not supplied the King His Majesty might take other Courses for Defence of the Kingdom But though he cannot possibly Swear my Lord Lieutenant spake these words yet he verily believes he heard him speak something to this purpose And this is all he can testifie Henry Earl of Holland Sworn and Interrogated Whether he did not hear my Lord of Strafford say to His Majesty That the Parliament in denying the King had given Him advantage to supply Himself by other wayes or words to that effect His Lordship Answered That he needs not trouble their Lordships with Circumstances or long Discourses but these words to the best of his remembrance according to his Oath he conceives were said to the King upon the Dissolving of the Parliament at the Council-Table That the Parliament in denying to supply the King had given Him advantage to supply Himself by other wayes But he will not tye himself so particularly to the words but as at the time when he was Examined before the Gentlemen of the Committee he added or words to this effect Being Asked By whom they were spoken His Lordship Answered By my Lord of Strafford Mr. Whitlock then proceeded to the latter words of the 23 d Article which shew in full and plain termes what my Lord of Straffords design was and what he would have laboured and endeavoured His Majesty to entertain The words of the Charge were Read And to prove them the Examination of Algernon Earl of Northumberland was first Read taken the 5 th Decemb. 1640. To the 7 th Interrogatory he saith That the Earl of Strafford said That in case of necessity and for the Defence and Safety of the Kingdom if the People do refuse to supply the King the King is Absolved from Rules of Government and that every thing is to be done for the preservation of the King and His People and that His Majesty was acquitted before God and Man And he saith that the said words were spoken at the Committee for Scotch Affairs in the presence of His Majesty and for the time of speaking these words he doth not perfectly remember He saith That these were the Discourses mentioned in his Answer to the third Interrogatory which made him believe what he hath answered to the said third Interrogatory Their Lordships calling to have the third Interrogatory Read It was Read To the Third and Fourth he saith That the Forces which were to come out of Ireland were to Land in the West part of Scotland but he doth not know nor hath heard to his Remembrance that these Forces or any other were to be imployed in this Kingdom to Compel or Awe the Subjects of this Realm to yield to such Taxes and Charges as should be Imposed on them by His Majesty He saith That he hath heard my Lord Lieutenant make some Discourses to the King whereby he believes that in case the King were not supplied by Parliament that some Course was intended to raise Moneys by Extraordinary wayes He saith That the said Lord Lieutenant did declare in His Majesties presence That the Design was to Land the Irish Army in the West parts of Scotland Sir Henry Vane being Interrogated What words he heard my Lord of Strafford speak to the King before the Parliament or after the Dissolution of it tending to this That the King had tried the Affections of His People and was Loose and Absolved from all Rules of Government and on what occasion He Answered That to the General Question of what was spoken before or after the sitting of the Parliament he doth not remember and there are no particular words asked him But to these words which have been read he shall as near as he can ingenuously deliver what he did formerly depose ever reserving to himself words to the same effect That he considers very well where he is and the presence before whom he speaks That he hath never in the whole course of his life loved to tell an untruth much less in this Honourable Assembly That he shall as near as he can in this Case tell their Lordships plainly and truely the matter It is true as my Lord Admiral hath declared to their Lordships that these words he is to testifie were spoken at the Committee of Eight for the Scotch Affairs For the time he shall crave pardon if he cannot particularly speak to it But thus far he shall say It was clearly after the Dissolution of the last Parliament It is true and if he do not very much mistake it was when the debate whether a Defensive or an Offensive War was Controverted And to the best that he can remember and clearly as he conceives there were words spoken either these he shall now relate or to the same effect by my Lord of Strafford who is now at the Bar. The occasion being Whether an Offensive or Defensive War and Arguments were Controverted in it My Lord of Strafford did say in a Discourse for he must be ingenuous he must say all he hath deposed or is required Your Majesty having tryed all wayes and being Refused and in Case of this extream necessity and for the safety of the Kingdom
You are acquitted before God and Men You have an Army in Ireland which You may Imploy here to Reduce this Kingdom or some words to this effect And Sir Henry Vane added That he desires to speak clearly to it It is true My Lord of Strafford said these words You may But by that he the Examinant cannot say it was intended but that the words were spoken and if it were the last hour he is to speak it is the Truth to his best Remembrance Being Asked on the several Motions of my Lord of Clare and my Lord Savil Whether by this Kingdom he meant the Kingdom of England or Scotland and Whether it was meant That he might imploy the Army in England or in Ireland because he said The Army might be there imployed He Answered That he shall as near as he can And because he would have-Truth appear he shall desire That if in this Case any word fall which may be uncouth in the Sence they would resort to his Examinations for there it remains under his Hand and Oath But to his best remembrance he thinks neither then nor there were used But Your Majesty hath an Army in Ireland You may Imploy to reduce this Kingdom But far be it from him the Examinant to Interpret them He tells their Lordships the words and no other Being directed by the Lord Steward to repeat what he had spoken He Answered That he shall plainly and clearly do it These words were spoken as my Lord of Northumberland hath testified at the Committee of Eight for the Scotch Affairs It was an occasion of a Debate Whether an Offensive or a Defensive War with the Kingdom of Scotland That on some Debate then some being of Opinion for a Defensive some for an Offensive War he did say the words related as he conceives That in a Discourse the Earl of Strafford said these words or words to this effect Your Majesty having tryed all wayes and refused in this case of extream necessity and for the Safety of Your Kingdom and People You are loose and absolved from all Rules of Government You are acquitted before God and Men You have an Army in Ireland You may imploy it to reduce this Kingdom Being Asked How long this was after the Parliament was Dissolved He Answered He cannot tell the time but it was suddenly after or within few dayes after the dissolution of the Parliament Being Asked on my Lord of Clares motion Whether these words You have an Army in Ireland did immediately follow these words You are Absolved c. He Answered That to his best remembrance it did interpose and my Lord of Strafford did speak it once or twice And to his best remembrance at first it was agitated to press the Offensive War for there were divers Reasons given as the Kingdom stood then that there should be no Offensive War and he must speak clearly and plainly he the Examinant did move for a Defensive War For the Subjects of England how they stood affected to this War they knew and besides a breach of a Parliament he thought it would but induce an ill effect On these Controversions the words were spoken Here Mr. Whitlock observed That these words were spoken in England on this occasion Of the Kings trying His People c. which cannot be intended any other place but England where the Parliament was broken and where the King had tried his People Being Asked on the motion of the Earl of Southampton Whether he sayes positively my Lord of Strafford did say these words or words to that effect or whether to his best remembrance He Answered That he speaks positively either those words or words to that effect The Earl of Clare desiring further satisfaction to the Question formerly proposed on this Motion Whether he meant by this Kingdom the Kingdom of England or the Kingdom of Scotland The Lord Steward put his Lordship in mind That Sir Henry Vane testifies to the Words not to the Interpretation And Mr. Maynard said The Question is put Whether this Kingdom be this Kingdom And so Mr. Whitlock said They should conclude their Evidence conceiving the last words spoken to be very fully proved and by connexion with those other words proved before he thinks it is very clear and manifest That my Lord of Strafford had a strong Design and Endeavour to subvert and change the Fundamental Laws and Government of England and to bring in an Army upon us to force this Kingdom to submit to an Arbitrary Power That he shall not trouble their Lordships with repitition of words nor with the Application of them for indeed they be above Application and to aggravate them were to allay them they have in themselves more bitterness and horror then he is able to express and so he left them to their Lordships consideration and application expecting my Lord of Straffords Answer to them Only he desired their Lordships in one point to hear what Mr. Treasurer can say further concerning the breach of the last Parliament and what Words and Messages he heard of during the sitting of that Parliament procured by my Lord of Strafford unless their Lordships will reserve that till the rest of the Witnesses come to morrow morning and then they shall be ready to produce all relating to that point together Whereupon liberty was granted for the reserving of them accordingly My Lord of Strafford did hereupon crave of their Lordships leave to recollect his Notes being as he said a little Distracted how to give Answer to these things for diverse Articles are mingled together which will make his Answer not so clear as otherwise he had hoped to have made it but trusts he shall do it still He desires leave to Answer Article by Article and how much horror soever this Gentleman is pleased to say there is in these words he trusts before he goes out of the Room to make it appear that though there may be error of Judgment yet nothing that may give offence when the Antecedents and Consequents are brought together and that he shall give such an account that whether or no their Lordships will clear him as to the Charge of an Indiscreet Man he knows not but as for Treason to the King and His People he shall give clear satisfaction that no such thing was spoken or intended His Lordship desired He might be favoured with the sight of my Lord of Northumberlands Examinations But this Mr Glyn opposed and said His Lordship being to Answer to matter of Fact let him first say how it stands and then prove it To which my Lord of Strafford Answered That in truth they make much more of it then he did for he trusts by the blessing of Almighty God to give the Answer of an honest Man to all Objections he will not say of a discreet Man and once for all he humbly besought their Lordships and so he knows in their Wisdom and Judgment they will to
best account he can and offer some proofs Sir Robert Loftus was the Vice-Admiral of the Province of Lemster himself was Vice-Admiral of the Province of Munster and about that time the Lord Admiral sent Direction and Command to the Vice-Admiral of Lemster and Munster to seize all the Scotch Ships then in those Ports so that what was done was done by the authority of my Lord Admiral and if their Lordships asked Mr. Slingsby he will say that about that time there came these Commands and by virtue thereof these Ships were stayed Mr. Slingsby being Interrogated whether about that time my Lord Admiral sent Warrants to the Vice-Admirals to seize the Scotch Ships in their several Ports He Answered That he received the Letters just as my Lord was going into England and dispersed them to the Vice-Admirals he executing that for Munster as Deputy to my Lord and the Ships were stayed after my Lords going into England and not before Whence my Lord of Strafford concluded That it appeared that he hath not been an extraordinary stirrer of difference between the King and the Subject he never desiring any thing but peace and quietness and that all things might be ended as he trusts they shall with good understanding and perpetuity of affection amongst our selves and with them And there his Lordship left the 20th Article hoping he had fully and clearly satisfied their Lordships as to any crime in it but whether his Judgement did mislead him in an opinion he will not dispute but will confess willingly That no man is more ready to mistake than himself His Lordship proceeds to the 21 Article which his Lordship read This he said he perceives is a particular they have much insisted on but have not as he conceives offered any substantial proof for what they alledge The first proof of the 21 Article was my Lord Primates Examination wherein he sayes That in a discourse betwixt them concerning the levying of money on the Subjects in case of imminent necessity his opinion was the King might use his Prerogative as he pleases but first it was best to try his Parliament This is the only Testimony in this particular being Singularis Testis he knows it will weigh with their Lordships accordingly and then it is no otherwise but by way of Discourse and Argument and how far that shall be layed to a mans Charge he must submit in regard of the reasons subsequent in the next Article so that he will reserve himself to this point till he comes thither But the words fairly and cleerly understood abide a sence no way of danger to him that speaks them For they are That the King may use his Prerogative as he pleases and the Kings pleasure is always just and will not use his Prerogative but justly and fairly and for a man to think otherwise were a higher offence Besides many things are lawful which if they were done to the uttermost of the Power that his Prerogative and the Law of the Land gives him might be prejudicial to His Subjects which notwithstanding he in his goodness and discharge of the Trust God Almighty hath put into him never hath nor will exercise but suffer them to be imployed for the Subjects advantage according to the present occasion And therefore to say he may use His Prerogative as he pleases might be without prejudice to the Subject and very lawful But it is a greater offence by much to think that the King will use his Prerogative otherwise then as befits a Christian and pious King And therefore he hopes these words shall not be laid to his charge as a signal crime and of so high deadly and capital a nature as Treason The next proof offered is my Lord Conway and he sayes on some discourse which being private between friend and friend neither of them thought they should come here to give an account of My Lord Conway asked him where the means should be for the Supply of the Kings Army He told him in Parliament and doubted not but the Parliament would supply His Majesty so far he was from thinking there should be that misfortune as the breach of that Parliament but quite contrary And for the words That if the King should be denyed in just and lawful things he might justifie before God and men the seeking means to help himselfe though it were against their will He must needs say That to help a mans self is a very natural motion for commonly a mans self is the last creature that leaves him and that which is natural to every man is natural to the King who is accountable not only for himself but also for all his people The next is Mr. Treasurer And he says That the 5th of December was Twelvemonths to the best of his Remembrance upon a Proposition of a Parliament to the King he the Earl of Strafford should say That if the Parliament should not succeed he would be ready to assist His Majesty any other way He sees not where the heynousness of the words lies nor where the venom is that should endanger him as to his Life and Honor And if he said he would assist His Majesty any other way if it were needful or any way conducing to his purpose he is verily perswaded Mr. Treasurer himself said as much but that is not material for he conceives it not blameble in either of them to have said so much therefore he laies it not on him as a Recrimination For the Question was a Parliament or no Parliament a Parliament was the desire of every man to settle the Common-wealth by that they might stare super vias antiquas And when they were moving His Majesty for a Parliament for him to say he would help any other way doth always presuppose what must be presupposed that it must be in all lawful ways The King cannot command unlawful ways and he hath that opinion of His Majesty and of His Truth and Faithfulness that He will not Command him any wayes but lawful wayes he having not carried himself in his Masters service so as that he can have an opinion of him that he will do any thing but what is honourable and just and therefore he hopes it is spoken without offence being fairly and rightly understood That is of lawful ways the ways the King could command and the wayes himself could serve him in being no other And this is all they bring to prove that part of the 21 Article that concerns his procuring of His Majesty to break the Parliament and by Force and Power to raise Money on the Subjects And this is all he sayes and all they charge out of that Article This he must add That when he sayes he will serve the King in any other ways in all Debates whensoever he expressed himself to that purpose he did ever in the conclusion end with this That there was no safe nor sure expedient to settle a right understanding between the King and
it very well and he had not done his duty if he had concealed it for he was one of them that told him of it Lord Goring being examined to the First and Second Question proposed to my Lord Marquis His Lordship Answered That he remembers something to this purpose and Candidè Castè makes him call it to mind but the particulars he cannot remember Candidè Castè for using the Kings Power he hath heard often Tho. German being examined to the same Question Answered That he would be very loath to say anything that doth not perfectly occurr to his remembrance he remembers that divers times at Council-Board my Lord spake these words Candidè Castè and he remembers them very perfectly but what day and time he remembers not but he remembers very perfectly he heard my Lord of Strafford say it must be on an urgent and unavoidable occasion that any by-course should be taken or put in practice but what day and time he cannot tell To the exact words of the Interrogation he cannot say but something to the sence as he the Examinant delivers them Being asked whether my Lord of Strafford hath not concluded That things will not be right till there be a right understanding between the King and his People or words to that effect He Answered That he thinks no man hath the Honor to sit at that Board but will give him that Testimony that he hath often spoken That the greatest happiness that can occurr to the King and People is the happy agreement and understanding between them Being asked on Mr. Glyn's motion Whether those words were used before the Dissolution of the Parliament or since He Answered To his best remembrance before yet he doth not deny but they may be said since that he must leave to the Lords whose memories serve better to distinguish times The Lord Treasurer being examined to the First Question proposed to my Lord Marquis He Answered That he doth not remember the discourse about his business Being asked to the Question Nov. 2. proposed to the Lord Marquis He Answered That phraze of Candidè Castè he remembers very well were used more than once but whether they were applyed to this particular he cannot speak He remembers my Lord used the words in such a sence and the interpretation of them was chastly and honestly but the other part he cannot remember Being asked to the Question Nov. 2. proposed to the Lord Marquis He Answered That he remembers not any of it Lord Cottington being examined to the Question Nov. 1. proposed to the Lord Marquis He Answered That if his Deposition be looked upon it will be found he did say my Lord put the Case so and he now says it again he the Examinant did declare and understand that my Lord Being asked to the Question Nov. 2. proposed to my Lord Marquis He Answered That he thinks he hath answer'd this already he remembers the words Candidè Castè and that the Power the King had for the preservation of Himself His Crown Posterity and People ought to be used Candidè Castè in all fair and just ways Being asked whether my Lord of Strafford did not say That the King was bound after the present danger provided for to free the Subject in Propriety and Liberty from the prejudice of such a precedent He Answered That he said the necessity being past and the work done the King ought to repair it and not to leave any precedent to the prejudice of His People Being asked Whether my Lord did not say that in conclusion all must be setled by Parliament and till all the dispute betwixt the Prerogative of the Crown and Liberty of the Subject be determined neither King nor People should be happy He Answered That he verily believes many of their Lordships have often heard him say it He hath heard my Lord say it to the King at the Council-Table It hath been always his position and to himself the Examinant he hath said often both before the last Parliament and after it was broken and it was an ordinary discourse to His Majesty That His Majesty could not be happy till there were an happy Union betwixt Himself and the Parliament and the Prerogative and Liberty of the Subjects were determined And my Lord of Strafford desired to have so much benefit of their Lordships Justice as to have the Examinations of my Lord Keeper which are not yet come in to these points reserved And now he said he had stated to their Lordships truly and justly the Question concerning these words that are by pieces and paches charged and which taking the whole contexture of the Discourse from the beginning to the ending represent them quite otherwise as he conceives than might seem to be enforced against him He offered this further to their Lordships That they see plainly and clearly proved that at all times and frequently he hath presumed by His Majesties favour and good leave to express himself how necessary it is for the happiness of the King and People that all these matters of difference should be setled and bounded and that by Parliament and that till they were so bounded neither His Majesty nor they could be happy so that it was far from going against the antient grounds of Government that have been here setled in that singular Providence and Wisdom of our Ancestors and never shall he contribute any thing but to the maintainance and preservation of them in all honest and honourable ways and means whatsoever and if these words were spoken with that moderation and qualification that the Power to be used must be a lawful Power and the ways to be taken lawful ways they were no way subject to exception Besides there is one Argument that cleers the Intendment and meaning of the words as he conceives a great deal more prevalently than if those words of lawful Power and just and honourable ways had been put in And that is that nothing hath been done by the King or the Council against the Laws and Customs of the Realm in pursuance of them where it hath been any breach on any Liberty or Propriety of the Subject What extraordinary Course hath been taken not warrantable by Law None that he knows of so that there being nothing but justly and fairly administred the very Deed done shews them to be spoken with that meaning and so to be interpreted so much the rather by how much doing well is better than saying well And the worst that can be made of them they are but words and no more and for the excuse of them their Lordships well remember what he said concerning the Statute they can never amount to Treason and before they shall be brought to him in a Criminal Charge he besought their Lordships to observe something he shall offer to them These words charged on him were not wantonly or unnecessarily spoken or whispered in a corner but they were
spoken in full Council where he was by the duty of his Oath obliged to speak according to his Heart and Conscience in all things concerning the Kings service so that if he had forborn to speak what he conceived for the benefit and advantage of the King and People as he conceived this to be he had been perjured towards God Almighty and now it seems by the speaking of them he is in danger to be a Traitor If that necessity be put upon him he thanks God by his Blessing he hath learned not to stand in fear of him that can kill the Body but he must stand in fear of him that can cast Body and Soul into Eternal pain And if that be the question That he must be a Traitor to Man or perjured to God he will be faithful to his Creator and whatsoever shall befall him from a popular rage or his own weakness he must leave it to God Almighty and to their Lordships Honor and Justice Nothing is more common than for a Counsellor to be of one opinion when he comes out of his Chamber and to have that opinion he delivers presently after confuted and cleared by the Wisdom and Prudence of his fellow-Counsellors of better understanding than himself And in this case when opinions are thus delivered and when there are alterations of these opinions upon the very debate that an opinion thus propounded should rise in judgment to convince a man of High Treason it is very hard nay it is to be thought that this was the very case in this particular The opinion was according to his Heart and Conscience given and for any thing appears to their Lordships something was said at that Board by others wiser than himself that altered him in that opinion for there was never any thing moved by him to reinforce that proposition he rested quiet with it he offered it not again there was never any thing done in pursuance of that advice either by himself or any body else which shews he did not press it but was rather perswaded by better reason that it was fit to be let alone An opinion may make an Heretick but he never heard before that Opinion should make a Traitor And though opinions may make an Heretick yet they must be held pertinaciously and against the light of a mans own conscience here no pertinacy appears no contestation nothing done against the light of his Heart and Conscience nothing of Obstinacy Frowardness and Perverseness but simply simply indeed in all respects he did in the duty of his place deliver his opinion modestly and fairly and when he had done there he left it and persued it no further so that such an Opinion as this would not have made an Heretique much less a Traitor In the last place he humbly beseeches their Lordships not to make themselves so unhappy as to disable themselves and their Children from undergoing the great Charge and Trust of the Common-wealth Their Lordships have it from their Fathers they are born to great thoughts and are nursed up for the great and weighty imployments of the Kingdom and God forbid that any but themselves Caeteris paribus should have this great Trust that their Birth and Breeding and Ranks procure for them under the Kings Goodness But let this be admitted That a Counsellor delivering his opinion under an oath of Secresie and Faithfulness at Council-Table Candidè Caste with others shall upon his mistaking or not knowing of the Law be brought into question and every word that passeth from him out of a sincere and noble intention shall be drawn against him for the attainting and convicting himself his Children and Posterity under favour after this shall be so he doth not know any wise and noble person of fortune that will upon such perilous and unsafe terms adventure to be a Counsellor to the King and therefore if their Lordships put these hard strains and tortures upon those that are the Counsellors of State to His Majesty when they speak nothing but according to their Hearts and Consciences for we that are not of the profession of the Law are not bound to speak the Law we can tell what in our Hearts and Consciences we conceive Honourable and Just but what 's legal is another mans business This shall disable their Lordships from those great Imployments to which their Birth and Thoughts do breed them and make them more uncapable than any other inferior Subjects And therefore he beseeches their Lordships to look on him so that his misfortune may not bring an inconvenience upon themselves And so he besought their Lordships to pardon what he had said with a great deal of disorder and if their Lordships take him into consideration they will find that nothing hath appeared in him but what is Honest Just and Faithful to King and People though they were not so advised and discreet and well weighed as they ought to be yet he hoped their Lordships are so Honourable and Good as not to lay their charge to him as High Treason To the 24th Article he said he made no Answer there being nothing spoken to it And so he concluded his Defence to these Articles Mr. Whitlock did thereunto Reply in substance as followeth That their Lordships have heard with a great deal of patience this long Defence made by my Lord of Strafford and desired the like patience from their Lordships in hearing the Reply which he doubts not but they shall obtain and give a clear Answer to all my Lord of Strafford hath spoken in his own Defence and how that it comes not at all to excuse him in this case My Lord is pleased to make it his suit that their Lordships will not be guided by enforcement of words against him but by the words themselves and that Mr. Whitlock desired likewise presuming that their Lordships will not be guided by my Lord of Straffords interpretation of these words to another sence than the words bear but judge according to the clear understanding and common signification of them further than which he will not strain them Whereas my Lord excuses his words that the Demands by the Scotch in their Parliament were a sufficient ground of War because he gave no other opinion than the rest of the Council then did their Lordships may be pleased to observe That my Lord Traquair testifies that some of the Council wereof another opinion at that time and that these words were spoken before the reason of those Demands were given and that there was a clear difference betwixt my Lord of Straffords advice and the advice of the rest It is evident by the opinion delivered by him long before that time in sentencing of Mr. Stuart in Ireland where after the pacification he was pleased to call the Scots Rebels and Traitors and that he would root them out Stock and Branch that took not the Oath And he said in his Answer That when he came out of Ireland into England he
no greater measure God be praised than these are My Lords these being the words that passed from me in Ireland there are other words that are charged upon me to have been spoken in England but if your Lordships will give me leave though perhaps in no very good method I shall not fail to touch first or last the words in every Article The next Article then that I am charged withal for words is the second Article and these are the words that I should say concerning the Finger and the Loins My Lords I may alledge much new matter but I will observe your Lordships Order punctually by the Grace of God for what I may say in that case if it might be admitted I keep it to my self but the truth is they that do prove the words to be thus That I would make the little finger of the Law heavier than the Kings Loins they do not tell you the occasion of the Speech or what went before or what after for my Lords if they had told the occasion which methinks they should as well have remembred as the words it would plainly and clearly have appeared to your Lordships that Sir William Pennymans Testimony was most true for the occasion was such that to have said those words had been to have spoken against that to which I intended the discourse but speaking them as I said it makes very strong for that purpose to which I directed them which was to appease the Countrey and quiet the Discontents for having been double charged with the Knight-money and therefore it was not properly threatening them further to have provoked them My Lords you have Sir Will. Pennymans testimony that it was so and my profession who under favour will not speak an untruth to save my life I protest before God that I say I verily believe or else I will never speak it indeed and there it is they have proved it to have been said one way we another way we give the occasion of our Speech and disavow theirs and so we must leave it and howsoever these words so spoken can never be drawn as I humbly conceive as premises to prove their conclusions that therefore I am guilty of High Treason they have made me guilty of a foolish Word and that I confess and if they please I will confess it all the day long for I have been foolish all the days of my life and I hope hereafter I shall look unto my ways that I offend not with my Tongue for if I cannot rule it abroad I will rule it within doors else I will never stirr abroad but bound it so to my own business and affairs that I trust I shall give no offence The next Article that chargeth me with words is the 22 Article and these be words spoke in England The first part of them which concerns the bringing in of the Irish Army I have spoken to already but in the conclusion there are other words and shortly the said Earl of Strafford returned to England and to sundry persons declared his opinion to be That His Majesty should first try the Parliament here and if that did not supply him according to his occasions he might then use his Prerogative as he pleased to levy what he needed and that he should be acquitted both of God and Man if he took some other courses to supply himself though it were against the will of his Subjects My Lords as unto this I conceive the Charge is not proved by any Witness that hath been here produced against me and in truth my Lords I must needs say this under favour if it be an error in my Judgement I must humbly crave your Lordships pardon through the whole Cause I have not seen a weaker proof and if I had had time to have gotten my Witnesses out of Ireland I hope that should be proved and so clearly as nothing could be proved more but I must stand or fall to what I have proved and so I do my Lords the proof they offer for this as I conceive is the Testimony of my Lord Primate and his Testimony is That in some discourse betwixt us two touching Levying upon the Subject in case of imminent necessity he found me of opinion that the King might use his Prerogative as he pleased My Lords this is under favour a single Testimony it is of a discourse between him and me and there is not any other that witnesses any thing concerning it so that under favour My Lords I conceive this will not be sufficient to bring me any ways in danger of Treason being but a single Testimony and my Lords it is to be thought and to be believed and it were a great offence for any man to think otherwise that in this case any thing can please the King he is so Gracious and Good but what shall be Just and Lawful and then there is no doubt but so far as with Justice and Lawfulness he may use his Prerogative in case of imminent danger when ordinary means will not be admitted At most he saith it was but an opinion and opinions may make an Heretick but they shall not I trust make a Traitor The next is the Testimony of my Lord Conway and the words that his Lordship testifies are these That in case the King would not be otherwise supplyed by Subsidies he might seek means to help himself though it were against the will of his Subjects Truly my Lords if I should acknowledge these words I do not see how they can be any way Capital in my case but this again is but a single Testimony and there is no other that says it but himself and if there be a good sense given to them certainly the words may very well bear it for I think it is a very natural motion for any man to preserve himself though it be to the disliking of another and why a King should not do it as well as a Subject it is such a prerogative of Kings as I never yet heard of for I thought though they had been Gods on earth yet they are men and have affections as men and should preserve themselves being not only accountable for themselves to God Almighty but also for their Subjects whose Good and Benefit is wrapt up and involved in theirs and therefore the King ought more to regard his own preservation than the Common-wealth The Third is That Mr. Treasurer says that to his best remembrance I did say That if the Parliament should not succeed I would be ready to assist His Majesty any other way God forbid this should be any offence for to say so either in him or me for I will swear if it please you that he said so as well as I therefore God forbid it should endanger either of us both for my Lords to say I will serve the King any other way it is no other than what became a good and faithful servant to do always provided the way be good and lawful