whatsoever faith is requisite and necessary to salvation as the beliefe of Scripture to be the word of God as is shewed before And this saving faith is the faith of all them that are heires of salvation to wit of all Gods Elect and all the Saints But it seems with Father Bellarmine you have an Implicit faith for your ignorants and an Explicit for you that are great Clerks or the letter of the Creed for those and the sense for these But I handled this also before Onely you propound a Paradox which is no worke for your pen wherein you are the wiser not to take upon you to read or expound such riddles had you been so wise as not to have propounded â— And yet it is the worke of every good Minister of Chrâ—â—t to teach the people what to beleeve and to exhort them to grow in Grace and knowledge and Faith and so declare unto them the whole Counâ—el of God and to keep nothing backe and to build men up in knowledge more and more unto perfection As the Preacher saith Because the Preacher was wise he still taught the people knowledge yea he gave good heed and sought out and set in Order many Proverbs The Preacher sought to find out acceptable words and that which was written was upright even words of truth The words of the wise are aâ— Goads and Nayles fastened by the Masters of Assemblies which are given from one shepheard But this is not a patterne for you to follow neither by your tongue nor pen. You have other imployment for them But though we cannot set a bound to faith in respect of perfection of degrees yet we ought to teach the people all the parts of saving faith and knowledge striving unto perfection And besides it is the duty of every good Minister of Christ to limit and set bounds to all the negatives of faith in discovering all manner of sins and errours which are all contrary and enemies to faith and salvation For which end they must open all the ten Commandements as Christ did Mat. 5. and all other points of saving Doctrine in the Scriptures Now though you have not the skill or will to set bounds how farre men shall beleeve yet you want no will nor power to inhibit and restraine Preachers shewing them how little a way they must goe in teaching the people and so consequently how little a way the people must goe in beleeving and saving knowledge as in restraining and forbidding to preach the Doctrines of Grace as before forbidding Lectures and especially all Sermonâ— on the Lords day afternoon forbidding long Preaching at any time forbidding expounding of the Catethisme as many of your Prelates doe and the like Thus you can finely set men bounds how little thy shall beleeve or know of God to their salvation That 's a worke if not for your pen or hand yet for your head and not unlikely of your hand and pen too L. p. 327. The Romanists dare not beleeve but as the Roman Church beleeves And the Roman Church at this day doth not beleeve the Scripture and the Creeds in the sense in the which the ancient Primitive Church received them P Dare they not How then say you there is possibility of salvation in the Roman Church for any when it condemneth and accurseth saving faith and justification thereby with other saving truths For if the Papists dare not beleeve but as their Church beleeves then they are bound to good behaviour they dare not beleeve to their salvation And if they dare not beleeve to their salvation then they cannot be saved And if they cannot be saved what possibility of salvation for them living and dying in that faith And here Why do you noâ— say in the sense of the Scriptures themselves and not of the Primitive Church But you doe not like the Scripture sense except the Church interpret it You allow not Scriptures to speake for or testifie for themselves You are the same man still And as we sayd before you doe wisely in that to stoppe the mouth of Scripture as Ahab did Michaiahs for it never speaks good of you but evil alwayes L. p. 232. I will acknowledge every fundamentall point of faith as proveable out of the Canon as we account it as if the Apochryphall were added unto it P. As if Apocryphalls were any divine proofe at all of the fundamentall points of faith in Scripture or ought any way in that respect to be so much as named with the Scripture Apocryphalls saith Ierome may be read for instruction of manners but not for confirmation of faith as before L. p. 336. I have lived and shall God-willing dye in that faith of Christ as it was professed in the ancient Primitive Church and as it is professed in the present Church of England P. As you handle the matter ther 's a vast difference between the faith of Christ professed in the ancient Primitive Church and that which is now professed in the present Church of England For the Ancient Primitive Church taken properly and strictly as somtime in your Booke as before you put it was that wherein the Apostles lived Now will ye be tryed by the Ancient Primitive Church of the Apostles held and professed What say you my Lord for your faith in this case Will you put your faith and Religion to the tryall of the most intire and upright Jâ—ry the Twelve Apostles Certainly if you decline this tryall 't is a shrewd suspicion that the faith of yours wherein you are so resolute to live and dye is not right Therfore for shame of the world you must at least professe or pretend that you wil be tryed by the the Faith and Religion which the Apostles and the true Church of God in their time as being the most Pure Prime Ancient Primitive Church held and professed First then That Primitive Church neither held nor professed nor practised any Hierarchicall government of Prelates or Bishops but have câ—ndemned it in their writings the Scriptures of the New Testament And yet I are say you resolve to live and dye Primate of Canterbury and Metropolitan of all England Secondly The Apostles and the ancient Primitive Church in their Age and time had no Altars but onely the Lord Iesus Christ Heb. 13.10 as it is formerly proved but you and your Church of England both set up and worship Altars and â—each the people both by your Books and practise to do so too and force Ministers to erect Altars or force them out of their Churches And this Faith and Religion also I dare say you resolve to live and dye in Thirdly The Apostles and the anciciâ—nt Primitiâ—e Church in their time celebrated and sanctified every Lords day in holy duties onely and in preaching as well in the afternoon as in the fâ—â—enoon never forbidding but still exhorting to preach in season and out of season giving no liberty to vaine and profane sports and Pastimes either upon
Rome What thankes the Church of England may returne you I know not But thus did not any of your Predecessors ever And have you more Charity or more Devotion then they had And for the hope in you whereof you give account to the world and your faith testified wherein you have lived and resolve to dye I will say as Ierome said to the Pelagians Sententias vestras prodidisse Superasse est The discovery of your opinions is our victory So thus to give account of your hope and testifie your faith to all the world as that wherein you have lived and resolve to dye Let 's see by your own testimony now irrevocably upon Record what to judge of you formerly namely as of one Qui cum Lacte nutricis errorem Suxisse videatur who seemeth to have sucked in Errour with his Nurses Milke As the Orator Speakes of all naturall men and what to expect of you hereafter that as you have lived a most notorious Persecuter of the truth of Christ and of his Saints So we must look for it Still so long as you live And this is our victory that we have to deale with one who is not now any longer a disguised but unmasked Enemy of the true Faith and Religion of JESUS CHRIST And however you may flatter your selfe in regard of the World and favour in Court yet if you repent not of your former life but dye as you have lived you can have neither hope nor faith in expecting Gods blessing or favour And so I passe from your Dedicatory to your Discourse as followeth THE REPLIE TO THE RELATION OF THE CONFERENCE L. p. 2. IT is very fit the People should look to the Iudgement of the Church before they be too busie with particulars But yet neither the Scripture nor any good Authority denyes them some moderate use of their own understanding and judgement especially in things familiar and evident which even ordinary Capacities may as easily understand as read And therefore some particulars a Christian may judge without depending P. What you meane by Church you have told us before namely that wherein your Church of England and that of Rome are one and the same one Prelaticall and Hierarchicall Church out of which are excluded all those Reformed Churches which neither have nor acknowledge Prelates to be of divine Institution We have also made a Say of the difficulties So as it is no difficulty to divine what Christians we are like to prove in understanding and judgement in the mystery of Faith and Salvation when we must be limited to that narrow Scantling of some moderate use of our owne understanding and Iudgement and that but in things familiar and evident to every ordinary Capacity O poore Christians that for Understanding in the Scripture must be at the allowance of Antichristian Lords who would bring into bondage Gods people by Chaining them up in Darknesse and Ignorance and doe with them as Nahash the Ammonite answered the men of Iabeth Gilead On this condition will I make a Covenant with you that I may thrust out all your right eyes and lay it for a reproach upon all Israel But the Apostle exhorts Christians Saying Be not children in understanding howbeit in malice be children but in understanding Téleio ginesthe be perfect And Leaving the Principles of the Doctrine of Christ Let us goe on unto perfection And Strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age even those who by reason of use have their Senses exercised to discerne both good and evill But you allow Christians onely some moderate use of their owne understanding and that in things familiar and evident which men of ordinary Capacities may as easily understand as read So as what they read except with the very reading they doe as easily understand it as they read it they must not meditate further of it but in what they presently upon the reading understand not they must depend upon your Churches judgement So as you would exclude your Christians from being of those blessed men of whom David Speakes which delight in the Law of the Lord and in his Law to meditate day and night You would not have them with use to exercise their wits and Senses to discerne 〈◊〉 good and evill Yea the Apostle useth a word very emphaticall diâ— tò exin by an habituall use or long custome have their Senses gegumnasmâ—na exercised the word properly signifieth such an exercise as Wrastlers or such as contend for victory doe use which is with all their might and strength being train'd up unto it by long exercise So as the Scripture doth not onely not forbid but Commands and exhorts Christians to all diligence in the Study of the Scriptures That their hearts might be comforted being knit together in love and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding to the aknowledgement of the Mystery of God as the Apostle speakes And Let the word of God dwell in you richly in all wisedome teaching and admonishing one another c. And the Bereans are Said to be dugenésteroi more noble then those of Thesselonica in that they received the word with all readinesse of mind and searched the Scriptures dayly whether those things were so which Paul taught Loe â—ere they examined Pauls Doctrine by the Scriptures they depended not upon his bare word and therefore the Holy Ghost markes them forth for men of a more noble spirit But you would have your Christians to be poore and beggerly in the knowledge of the mystery of Christ and to be so base-minded as in all things which are not obvious to every Capacity to depend meerely upon your Church-Authority and Judgement So as what you meane hereby except to bring into your Church of England the Iesuiticall blind obedience captivating the peoples senses to your Dictates that they might pinne their Salvation and Faith upon your Priests Sleeve I cannot imagine Which will appeare yet more clearely at after Againe these words of yours are in Answere to the Jesuit's words namely That it was not for the Lady or any other unlearned Persons to take upon them to judge of Particulars without depending upon the Iudgement of the true Church To which all your Answere in full is as before Wherein you easily let the Jesuite slip and run away with this that the Church of Rome is that true Church on whose Iudgement for Particulars all unlearned Persons must depend But you understand the true Church to be that wherein you told us before your Church of England and of Rome are one and the Same And so for Rome to be a true Church you plainly confesse at after But your words here may stand you in very good Stead to be a faire Item to all the Readers of your Booke not to be too busie with the Particulars of it but first to look to the Iudgement of the Church of England whose mouth you seem to be in this
an ordinary Grace and this Ordinary Grace hath no force at all unlesse the present Churches Authority prepare the way So as this Ordinarily of yours admits of no exception at all in any case though never so extraordinary And thus you exclude that your Divine Faith as it is a worke of ordinary Grace as you call it from being any Grace of God at all except Grace of Canterbury can dubbe it for a Grace For all Grace is one of those two kinds I named even now either that Grace of God which makes a man freely accepted in Christ which your Ordinary Grace by your own Confession doth not or that common Grace which is said to be freely given of God to whom he will without the intervention or prevention of any outward meanes or respect which your ordinary Graces cannot be for your selfe every where professe that no ordinary Grace nor any thing else can worke beliefe that the Scripture is the word of God unlesse your present Church Authority tanquam Gratia preparans ac praeveniens as a preparing and preventing Grace prepare the way And thus you see to what a Confusion all your Schoole Distinctions are brought And in truth your Schoole Distinctions for the most part being weighed in the just ballance of the Sanctuary prove too light and doe corrupt the truth For even that Distinction which I named of Gratia gratis data Gratia gratum faciens though the termes are good and true yet as some apply the latter to wit Grace making acceptable it is corrupt As when by that Grace they understand Faith Hope and Charity which being infused into the soule aâ—e the matter say they of Iustification and of our acceptation with God Now in this sense this member of the Distinction holds not good but is Popish For Faith onely is that Grace which makes us accepted of God but this not as it is a worke or Grace inherent but as an Instrument apprehending and applying Christ in whom alone we are through Faith accepted of GOD who makeâ— us accepted in the beloved So as he that will find any good and sound Distinction out of the Schoole-men he must doe as Virgil said of his reading of Ennius Margaritas è caeno legere gather pearles out of the mudde and he must look to have them well washed and polished and tryed by the Scriptures before he use them to illustrate or confirme any Doctrine of sound Divinity This by the way L. p. 226. The time was before this A. miserable rent in the Church of Christ which I B think no Christian can look upon but with a bleeding heart that C you and we were all of one beliefe D That beliefe was tainted in Tract and Corruption of time very deeply A division was made yet so as E both parties held the Creed and other Common Principles of beliefe Of these this was one of the greatest That the Scripture is the word of God For our beliefe of all things contained in it depends upon it Since F this Division there hath been nothing done by us to discredit this Principle Nay we have given it G all honour and ascribed unto it more sufficiency even to the containing of all things necessary to Salvation with satis superque enough and more then enough which your selves have not done doe not H And for begetting and setling a beliefe of this Principle we goe the same way with you and a better besides The same way with you because we alow the Tradition of the present Church to be the first inducing motive to imbrace this Principle onely we cannot goe so farre in this way as you to make the present Tradition I alwayes an infallible word of God unwritten P. Here I Have Alphabetically as by A B C. c. noted sundry particulars A That you call the Protestants seperating from the Church of Rome a miserable rent Why miserable when Christ Commands it As Rev. 18.4 as is noted before and shall yet more in a fit place So as the Protestants had been in a miserable condition if this seperation this rent had not been made B 2 dly And must every Christian heart bleed to see it because it seems yours doth Surely this hath cost the heart-blood of many thousands of Gods Saints and Martyrs shed and spilt by that blood drunken whore Yet better so to perish by her temporally here then to perish with her eternally hereafter which must have been had not this miserable rent been made C 3 dly But before this rent say you they and we were all of one beliefe You may speake for your selfe if you had lived before the rent was made We doubt not but both you would have been of the same Faith with Rome and would have continued in it so as for your part there should never have been made such a miserable rent We know well both your Faith and your Charitable and Peaceable disposition for that matter Yea though that one beliefe was tainted That should have broken no square For you say D 4 ly That beliefe that very one beliefe whereof you and they then were before the rent was tainted yea very deeply too But I say still speake for your selfe and your Confederates onely usurpe not the name of all Protestants quorum tu pars minima whereof you were the least part if any at all that seperated from Rome whereof many before they came to be called Protestants which was upon their protesting against the Whore of Babylon and for their just and necessary seperating from her dissented from and disliked and so farre as the iniquity of the times and humane frailty and unavoidable necessity permitted seperated themselves privately at least from many of her most notorious and intolerable en ormites and not a few in their severall ages wherein they lived openly protested against her both by writing and preaching though it cost them their heart-blood for it You have at hand a Catalogue of them in Catalogus Testium veritatis and in the Book of Acts and Monuments and other Authors both forraigne and domesticke and that of fâ—esh bleeding memory E 5 ly You prove your Faith was then one for holâ—ing the Creed and other CoÌ„mon Principles of beliefe of which one of the Greatest c. Indeed before that rent Rome professed and held the letter and externall form of the Creed but not the sense faith life and substance as elsewhere you confesse of the present Church of Rome Did you so then so now I doubt 't will prove so in a great measure For though you tell us that your beliefe of all things contained in the Creed depends upon this principle That Scripture is the word of God For that is the best sense can be made of your words yet there be many even fundamentall Doctrines in Scripture which your beliefe depends not upon nor your practises agree unto as both before is touched and occasion will be given yet more to speake of