to order and administer the affaires of Gods House signifying the territory or circuit of a Bishop So Creet may be well called the Diocese of Bishop Titus having under his inspection as t is plaine the Elders of the Cities there W. The Cities were not under Titus his Government he was not a Ruler of the Iland B. He was Ruler of all the Christians I mean onely them through all the Cities and Country Tr. But Titus was an Evangelist Therefore no Bishop B. I deny the Consequence He was an Evangelist while he went about Preaching and Planting the Gospell And he was the Bishop of Creet when he was fixed there by Paul to Ordaine Elders and put in order the things that were wanting H. We find Titus in other places beside Creet and Bishops of those times were not non-residents Therefore he was not Bishop of Creet B. Bishops may lawfully be and were antiently non-resident for some time to wit while they attend the business of Religion abroad and procured the greater good of the Church In which time of their absence their places are supplyed at home by their Deputies Tr. But Sir I pray consider Titus was an extraordinary Governor and therefore no Diocesan Bishop And you dispute fallaciously unless you put in the word Ordinary B. I say he was a Diocesan Bishop or if you will rather an Archbishop For I conceive the Elders of every City to have been Bishops and Overseers of severall Ministers and Congregations therefore he was an ordinary Governour Thus I argue He that ordaines Elders and orders the things in the Churches is an Ordinary But Titus ordaines Elders and orders things in the Churches Therefore Titus is an Ordinary Tr. But I mean he was called to that office in an extraordinary manner B. No neither He was called in the same manner as Timothy and others by Imposition of the Presbytery Therefore He was called in an Ordinary manner Col. A. Timothy was called saith Paul in another place by the laying on of his hands B. Noble Sir you say very true and the places are easily reconciled thus Divers Elders laid hands on Timothy among whom S. Paul probably was chief H. And was Paul too a Diocesan Bishop B. The Apostles common Diocese was the whole world which by agreement they divided among them and S. Paul was especially the Apostle of the Gentiles But in the Apostles I grant some things are extraordinary Tr. Pray make it out cleerely that Titus his case is not extraordinary otherwise you dispute fallaciously B. Truth needs no sophistry Thus I make it out The office that is to continue in the Church and to be succeeded in through following ages is no extraordinary office But this office of Titus is such Therefore c. H. What is it to continue to the worlds end B. Yes to the worlds end For it is Christs Promise I am with you alway even to the end of the world Mat. ult ult What say you to my argument Ordination and Jurisdiction are Offices or Powers needfull to the Church in all Ages This Office of Power or Titus was Ordination and Jurisdiction Therefore this Office of Titus is needfull to the Church in all Ages and therefore no extraordinary Office And my Brethren I would have you to know we are able to shew out of the best Records and Monuments of the Antient Church that there was a succession to the Apostolicall Bishops in these parts of their Office And the Catalogues of succeeding Bishops in severall Apostolicall Sees are yet extant And the Fathers and Councills and Ecclesiasticall Histories come in here with undeniable evidence that Diocesan Bishops are successors of the Apostles in the Government of Churches H. See godly Brethren the subtilty of this man He will not contain himself within the Holy Scripture but tells us of Fathers and Ecclesiasticall Stories and human Authorities B. Who succeeded in the government of Churches after the Apostles we must learn out of the writings of the next Ages And I tell you not only Fathers and Church-story but all other good learning is requisite in a compleat Divine Mark this you bold unlearned new-speakers and expounders of Scripture Mark it and remember it well And for the question of Church-government especially it is impossible to find a better way to understand the Scripture than by the practice of the primitive times of the Christian Church H. Expound Scripture by the practice of the primitive Church Do ye heare him brethren as if Scripture needed the help of the Church We thought we should finde him enclining to Popery B. I detest all Popery charge me not so ignorantly Upon my life I will make it good by the judgment of the most learned and sound Protestants that the practice of the primitive Church is a great light to Scripture But this requires the searching of Books which at your lesure I should be glad to shew you W. Protestants Whom do you mean by Protestants B. I mean those that protest against the Errors Innovations of the Roman Church in latter times and endeavour to reform Religion according to the Scripture and the primitive pattern H. You see he takes in the practice of the Primitive Church again B. I do and must and thus I argue That Government which in the primitive Ages took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government But the Government of Diocesan Bishops took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles Therefore the Government of the Diocesan Bishops is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government Now let me see who will answer me W. Antichrist Antichrist was working betimes B. Whether it be Antichristianism to establish or to over throw the Function of Bishops let all considering men judge by the Premises W. But why do you take in any thing else with Scripture as if that alone were not sufficient for us H. Yea Scripture Scripture we are contented with Scripture B. Give me leave to explain my self to All and I entreat you Harken The Scriptures perfection I do thankfully acknowledge but the things conteined in the Scripture are some of them conteined in it plainly and expresly to be apprehended by every Reader other things are conteined there implicitely virtually and so as there is need of many helps to make our deductions thence And for the Scripture-government I know no better light to shew it than the practice of the Antient Church I argue thus They that have commended to us the very Books of Scripture are fittest to give us the sense of them especially in point of Government But the Antient Church hath commended to us the very books of Scripture Therefore the Antient Church is fittest to give us the sense c. And I pray Mr. W. how will you prove that the Scripture is the Word of God W. I know it by the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in me B. But how will you convince another that will not believe your
conceived some have set up that to the disadvantage of other prayers or perhaps been a little superstitious in honouring the former you would bend the stick the other way and by omitting for a time the use of the words though you keep the matter still teach people to regard the sense as the onely thing Wherein you are not I think opposed by the other side who hold the prayer to have been used by Christ's appointment by the Disciples and fit to be used by us How can this be denied yet do not deny but the words may lawfully be omitted and the sense kept And surely it were a very great restraint of Devotion to confine it to any Forms whatsoever my particular necessities being not particularly provided for by the forms of any other Which necessities yet my heart may much desire to open to God And the like may be said sometime of a Congregation So that as every Christian must labour to express himself in private beyond forms so every Minister must endeavour after the Ability to deliver to God the needs of his people as the exigent shall require And the exigent doth not always admit of preparation To conclude we gladly use the help our Lord and his servants that have gon beore us have afforded us We value their prayers and use them We do also after their pattern and agreeable to them frame other prayers for our use And yet after all prepared prayer the Christian Soul must be allowed her sudden ejaculations and extemporall ascensions to the Throne of Grace What would you have more c. The Answer given to this letter was civill and so was the Reply but neither is found Only Mr. Barksdale remembreth he sent Mr. Medes Diatribae with his next letter and commended some of the discourses to Mr. Helme who answerd that Mr. Mede lived in the time of the Prelates and no wonder if he did serve that time wherein surely he mistook the Genius of that excellent scholar whose learning was accompanyed with equall integrity as the Reader may finde by his Epistles and life since published Mr. Helme his conclusion then was that he would avoid controversies and preach Christ unto the people And thus far all was fair between him and Mr. Barksdale and so it continued till Mr. Helme began more and more to alienate himself from all neighbouring Ministers except some few more suitable to his own mind with whom alone he gave out he would supply the Lecture And accordingly when another came to preach he denyed him and took the pulpit himself and there deliver'd such things which occasioned Another Letter of Mr. Barksdale to Mr. Helme Maii 26. 52. Vincat Veritas Vivat Charitas SIR I much commend what you said well of brotherly union and love but cannot away with this new business of separation Fraternall Admonition also I much desire should be more practised but suspension before Admonition I cannot allow of Clearly my opinion is notwithstanding all that I have heard from you and your Brethren that Ministers are not to be condemn'd by you for administring the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in their Congregations though mixed And for the proof here of I do humbly tender unto you and yours these following Reasons which I shall be ready to enlarge and press more Logically if it be desired 1. Because of Christ's precept Do this in remembrance of me This remembrance should be frequent and not delayed from year to year on pretence of unpreparedness 2. I argue from Christ's example As he washed the feet of Judas among the rest so if you will hear the Expositors antient and recent of best account he admitted Judas to the Sacrament though he well knew his unworthiness and Ministers do not know the unworthiness of those they admit but hope the best upon their profession 3. From the Apostles words Ye shew forth the Lords death The Lords death is shewed forth to the Ear of the unworthy Hearer why may it not to the Eye also of the Receiver though in the Event he prove unworthy 4. From those words of the Apostle where he saith The word is the savour of death to some Yet the danger of that must not hinder Ministers from preaching in miâ—t Congregations and therefore the danger of the unworthiness of some Receivers must not hinder the administration of the Sacrament 5. I allege the example of the Apostles who upon profession of Faith Baptized whole multitudes and no doubt communicated with them although it appeared after that they were not all right 6. St. Paul directing his Epistles to mixt Congregations calls them all Saints because of their holy calling and profession and those that are Saints in reputation may be admitted 7. In the Church of Corinth were many disorderly persons besides the incestuous person that were admitted And 1 Cor. 11. Where he blames their comming together for the worse he forbids them not to come together nor doth he check the Minister and forbid him to offer the Sacrament but saith he Let a man examine himself and so Neither doth the unworthy eat damnation to the Minister or any other but only to himself Nor is the Cup of blessing turned by the Minister into a Cup of poyson God forbid such language of yours but the unworthy Receiver of the cup of blessing loses the blessing through his unworthiness 8. As the word becomes the savour of death to the unworthy so are their prayers abomination yet you both receive them to the Word and joyn with them in Prayer and you sing Psalms with them namely the 100. Psalms We are his flock he doth us seed c. 9. As the Word is a quickning Ordinance so the Sacrament is a quickning Ordinance For it is always accompanied with the Word Nay without the Word 't is no Sacrament If the Word without the Sacrament may quicken those that were dead much more may the Word with the Sacrament Christ is the Bread of life both to give life and to maintain life 10. You do I suppose admit Children of all Christian parents upon their desire and profession to the one Sacrament why do you not admit the parents themselves likewise to thè other 11. You have no power to receive accusations and proofs of Witnesses without which you cannot give sentence and will you condemn and suspend or excommunicate before you have tryed or upon hear-say Quis erit innocens 12. You say you make a separation in the Church not from the Church as if it were lawfull to make a separation in the Church A separation in the Church is a rent of the Church is offensive and saddens the heart of many pious discreet and charitable persons that however they like you otherwise cannot joyn with you in your by-way 13. We must not deny the worthy and keep from them the means and pledges of grace because of the unworthiness of some 14. As we offer the Covenant to all so must we offer the seal
my self to wait on you either privately or publickly but you know I think or may know that my Intention was for a private meeting I am assured by some judicious friends that no scholastic Order is to be hoped for at your publick Meeting Wherefore I may without any injury to my Cause decline it being ready to answer either by word before some discreet witnesses or by writing as you shall please to propose your Arguments But pray let them be Arguments not ill words as Libell Idolatry Murdering and other the like elegancies of yours In all wayes that become an ingenuous man and a Christian I am your servant All-Saints-Day Mr. B's Reply to Mr. A. P. Octob. 31. 53. DEar Sir Si judicas cognosce My self am best able to inform you both what my Thoughts are and what my Actions are Ever since I was initiated into Holy Orders which was above twenty years since it hath been my Design in preaching with sincerity and simplicity of heart I thank God though with much weakness to commend unto my Hearers both the Form and the Power of Godliness not one without the other but Both Quae Deus conjunxit I could never approve of those that pretending to set up the Power cry down the Form that is all decent and comely Rites and Ceremonies ordained by the Church nor of those that while they were zealous for Rites and Forms neglected the Power The Church of England I have always reverenced I mean in respect of the excellent constitutions and Laws of it as for corrupt practices of Officers or Ministers therein I can be sorry for them I cannot defend them And now since the late obstinate Disorders of our people I am more in love with the Beauty of the Church appearing still in the said constitutions Till I find a better Church I must have leave to continue in the communion of this A causeless separation from it I cannot excuse from the crime of Schism In the Ministration of the Sacrament I indeavor to follow the Rule so far as I can and after the best preparation I can use admit only those that joyn with me in holy professions and serious and solemn engagements to lead a Christian life If I be enformed of any particular that scandalously breaks his Vow I will take heed how I admit him again withotu satisfaction But where things are doubtful I encline to the more favourable part Private Conference either by word or Letter I much desire with any of your Temper Publick I refuse not if it may be quiet and orderly Your Letter I much thank you for I will study it and give you Account This general Answer I scribled and sent you this next morn after the receit of yours that you may know I have kindly taken it and that I heartily am SIR Yours C. B. His fuller Answer to Mr. A. P. Dear Sir THe Zeal that sparkles all over your Letter of the 26. of Octo. which I have now had leasure to read so often that I can read it perfectly calls for a more particular Answer than I gave you on Monday last Expect only a few brief notes upon it till I have the opportunity of a friendly meeting You say you do not find but Mr. H. proceeded according to what I proposed to him My note shews that I offered a meeting at the place he would appoint in the presence of some discreet Auditors What place can be understood but a private place or house as I also explaned my self to the Baylif that received of me the Paper mentioning his house or Mr. F's so that it is no receding from my offer but a refusal of an unreasonable demand if I come not among the confused multitude Peruse a passage in Hookers Preface concerning publick Conferences or Disputes and consider whether Mr. H. his publike meeting will admit of any such Rules You say You are grieved to hear of me as an Opposer of Reformation c. If you would make it appear to me that the work at Winchcomb is a work of true Reformation Oh how glad should I be to contribute my best aid to it But I administer the holy things you say to Prophane Wretches the haters of Godliness who the next hour c. We confess our selves to God miserable and wretched sinners but we trust in his mercy that he will accept us in Christ not weiging our merits but pardoning our offences I shall use the best means I can to find out those you characterize and deal with them accordingly but after all care there may be false Professors and Revolters in the truest Church I countenance none in their corrupt and loose waies but on the contrary shew the danger of such looseness and exhort unto all Gospel-Order nor do I know any of my Company that do scornfully refuse it I am not guilty of the bloud of Christ which I highly honour and Minister to those only that seem to me to thirst after it and receive it with fear and reverence after profession of Faith and Obedience If by Praelatical formal superstitious usages you mean those decent Orders and Rites which have been established and used in the Church of England I have much to say for the Lawfulness of them yet am ready to submit to the commands of my Superiors when they shall establish another way agreeable to Gods word I will neither shut my eyes against the light nor resist the Spirit of Christ for which I daily pray The way of holiness I conceive doth not exclude laudable Forms and Customs which serve for edification in holiness Me thinks it is very fit the body should act a part in the service of God with the Soul for both are Gods I had almost forgot that you say I have no Call to do what I do If Mr. H. hath as lawful a Call as I I will seek Communion with him the next day I know it The out-comers that will make use of my Ministry I cannot deny so long as they have no Pastor that will own them upon lawful conditions for the conditions of that same new Covenant are not right in the eyes of very knowing orderly and well-disposed People It had been methinks a good way to have proposed that Covenant to debate among Neighbouring Ministers before it had been obtruded on the People under penalty of loss of Communion The excellent Scriptures you commend unto me I have considered and will give you my sense of them when I see what deductions you can make thence against me I do think there are as good Preachers and as holy men of that way which you call Prelatical as are under Heaven quos longè sequar vestigia semper adoro I speak of Jewels Hookers Ushers Halls Lakes Andrews I could weary you with names worthy of eternal memory It is easy to call yours the Lord's they that are truly so I honour not despise and others a loose dead-hearted carnal party For my part I
you All to take notice that our Church is free from that superstition or whatever it be called wherewith the Church of Rome is justly charged The Saints are in our Prayers for imitation not for adoration Our Houses therefore being truly built at first for God's Service and now used by us for the right end the setting apart of such places for divine Worship makes them relatively holy and gives God a peculiar Title to them and he owns them for his My House shall be called a House of prayer W. Your own House may be as well used so and called Gods House and a holy place B. No Though God may be served in every place and I serve him dayly in my own house yet the publick place separated for his service I say becomes his by a peculiar right All the world is his but our Churches are his to a singular and holy purpose by a singular dedication As he hath his Day so also a place for his Worship both Holy Keep ye my Sabbath and reverence my Sanctuary For your satisfaction see Mr. Mede's Divine Treatise upon Hallowed be thy name and his letter to D. Twiss Now let us Hoc agere and come to the business of the day H. To the Question of the day my first Argument is this That it is not lawfull to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches thus I prove If you have not a true calling in your Church of England then it is not lawfull for you to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches But you have not a true Calling in your Church of England Therefore it is not lawfull for you to minister the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches B. I repeat If we have not c. I deny your minor and affirm we have a true calling in our Church of England H. If in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices then your calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling but in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices Therefore your Calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling B. I deny your minor and affirme we are not engaged to any superstitious and unlawfull practices is our Calling by the Bishops H. The keeping of Holy-dayes I do not mean Holy-dayes upon occasion as our Thanksgiving dayes but your set holy-dayes the keeping of your holy-dayes is an unlawfull practice But in your Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to the keeping of Holy-dayes Therefore in the Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to unlawfull practices B. I deny your major and affirm that the keeping of our holy-dayes is not an unlawfull practice H. A practice against Gods command is an unlawfull practice But your practice is against Gods command Therfore your practice is an unlawfull practice B. Not against God's command how prove you that H. My text is in 20. Exod. where you shall find it a part of the fourth Commandement Six dayes shalt thou labour and do all that thou hast to do Therefore it is against Gods command to keep any one of the six dayes holy B. I answer two wayes 1. By retortion 2. By interpretation 1. By retortion I say your Argument rebounds upon your self and condemnes your own practice and that Text in your sense that we are commanded to labour six dayes takes away as well occasionall holy-dayes as set and recurrent For our Thanksgiving dayes are not dayes of labour 2. By interpretation the words you urge are not preceptive but permissive God requires one day in seven and allowes us six not denying us the liberty if we be so devout as to consecrate some part of them also to his publick Service The Jewes had among their holy-dayes the feast of Dedication of human Institution which yet we read that Christ himself observed H. Worship not instituted by God is unlawfull Worship But your Holy-dayes are a Worship not instituted by God but by human authority therefore your holy-dayes are unlawfull Worship B. I answer to the minor and say that our holy-dayes are not the Worship it self but a circumstance of the Worship and circumstances of Gods Worship may be ordained lawfully by men H. Well your calling by the Bishops however is not lawfull and thus I prove it If the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops then your calling by the Bishops is not lawfull But the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops Therefore c. B. I deny your minor and affirme the Scripture does allow Diocesan Bishops H. There is not so much as the name of a Diocesan Bishop in all the Scripture B. But there is more than the Name there is the Thing there is the Office The word Trinity is not in the Scripture yet we Believe the Trinity H. Where doth the Scripture shew us any such office bring forth your proofe of it B. 'T is my part to answer your proofs Now you put on the Respondent the part of an Opponent Let them that have been bred in the Schools judge whether you do like a fair Disputant H. Our dispute is not an University Dispute but for the clearing of the truth to some Godly People B. Do you think the University Disputations which are the best in the world are not for the clearing of the Truth But what saith Mr. Tr. shall I propose my Argument to prove Diocesan Bishops by the Scripture Tr. You have liberty to propose your Argument and shew in what part of Scripture you can find the Office of any Diocesan Bishop B. I allege principally the Epistles of S. Paul to Timothy and Titus and particularly Tit. 1. 5. For this cause left I thee in Creet that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting and ordaine Elders in every City as I have appointed thee Out of which Text I will prove that Titus was a Bishop and Creet his Diocese and therefore here we have found the Diocesian Bishop But before I proceed let me aske you Gentlemen do you not put me upon this to ensnare me Do you mean no harm to me Tr. No I assure you wherefore in Gods Name speak freely B. I humbly thank you but first let me openly declare before all this Assembly that I have no mind to oppose any act of State nor will I meddle at all with the Lands and Lordships of Bishops only I plead for the Order and Function of Bishops I plead for the primitive Apostolicall Bishop and no other And that this Text is for me thus I prove He that hath a power to ordaine Elders and set things in order in the Church is a Bishop But Titus hath a power to ordaine Elders and to set things in order in a Church Therefore Titus is a Bishop H. But you must prove him to be a Diocesan Bishop B. So I do Creet was his Diocese the whole Iland was committed to his Goverment Diocese my friends is a Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
Spirit that the Scripture is divine Here you may make very good use of the Testimony of the next Ages that received it from the Apostles and gave it down to their Followers W. and H. Popery to depend upon the Testimony of the Church To. Since you are many at once upon one which is not fair give me leave to put in sometimes in behalf and for the case of the Respondent We say we depend upon the testimony of the Antient Church not of the now Roman Church The Roman Church is a very corrupt Church the Primitive times were far more pure W. What do you talk of Purity after the Apostles times Did not many Heresies creep in To. By this Argument you will condemn the Apostles times also for even then were not wanting Schismes and Heresies B. Will you leave this as it is and proceed to some farther Argument and come close to the business of the Sacrament I say it is lawfull for me to Minister the Sacrament in the Congregation at Sudeley H. Thus I proceed to shew that your calling is null therefore you cannot Minister Ministers that Prophane the holy things of the Lord their calling is null But many Parish Ministers prophane the holy things of the Lord Therefore their Calling is null B. You should say All Parish Ministers for you hold it is not lawful to Minister in any mixt Congregation and such you say are all Parish Churches But say neither All nor Many but apply the minor to me whom you have publikely in your Sermons condemned before you used the Christian wayes of more private Admonition and then I deny both your premises both Major and Minor both are false and Scandalous Neither doth the prophaning of Holy things null the Ministers calling nor have I prophaned the Holy things in the said Ministery H. First then I prove the major fully you that have Bibles Brethren pray turn to the places Ezek. 22. 26. 44. 13. B. What prove you thence H. That prophaning the Holy things nulls the Priesthood for they shall be no Priests unto me saith the Lord. B. I answer to the Text by distinguishing between the Order of a Priest and the Office of a Priest They shall be no Priests unto me here is a suspension from the Office and work of the Priests no nulling of the Priesthood it self W. Then it seems by you They were Priests and no Priests God saith They shall not you say they shall remain Priests To. He hath shewed you how They were Priests and no Priests in divers respects They were still of the Order and race of Priests they were not to officiate any more in the Priestly office God would not accept them he saith They shall be no Priests unto me Yet who knoweth but upon their repentance God might readmit them not by a new Consecration but by Absolution And so Ministers when they are restored after suspension are not new Ordained but only the Censures taken off Tr. Well you grant at last a removall and suspension from the office though the calling be not nulled And so you will confess you deserve to be removed from Officiating if you prophane the Holy Things of the Lord. B. I will grant that a Minister if he be so prophane ought not to officiate but I think the proceedings against a Minister must be tender and wary Receive not an accusation against an Elder without two or three witnesses Conviction must go before Censure and upon Repentance restauration followes And I refuse not to be so dealt with Tr. Proceed therefore and prove your minor that he doth prophane the holy things of the Lord. H. They that administer the Sacrament promiscuously to All do prophane But you so administer Therefore c. B. Your minor's false and Scandalous The Congregation of my hearers I will confess is mixt not so the Company of my Communicants Understand what my practice is After divers preparations when the Sacrament is to be administred I proclame All that are not prepared Depart You that are prepared Stay These after the departure of the rest I look upon as prepared in some measure and so I go on H. If you do administer the Sacrament to the unregenerate Tr. No no say thus to the ignorant and Prophane H. You Minister the Holy Sacrament to the ignorant and prophane B. You do well to prompt one another Prove it Or if you please I answer persons may be ignorant and prophane either in the eye of God that searcheth the secrets of the heart or in the eye of the Church that looks upon the outward appearance In the former sense some of us may be such we are not so in the latter Tr. Pray Mr. B. let me ask you Do you know every one that you Minister the Sacrament to B. I will give you an ingenuous answer I do not know every one Tr. O! how can you justify your self in this W. Why here 's a confession of the fault we lay to your charge you give the Sacrament you know not to whom We have done now H. We thank the Lord Brethren that the good work is so happily brought to a conclusion this day You hear what he confesseth he doth not know some of them who they are and yet he should know them to be visible Saints A good Shepheard knows his flock B. Hold a little my Masters and take me with you Have patience while I give in my Answer I do not know them and yet I do know them I know them not some of them by name I have no familiar acquaintance with them I do not know them in civil relations but I do know them and own them in a religious relation I know no hurt by them Tr. You Know no hurt by them Alas Alas poor creatures B. Hear me out I do not only know no hurt by them but I know much good by them their visible and cheerful profession of the true Christian Faith their reverent behaviour at their Prayers their humble Confession of Sins earnest desires of pardon hearty promises of new obedience An appearance of Faith and Repentance joyned with Charity and thankfulness satisfies me very well for the time till I find they do deceive me H. You are deceived with too good an opinion of them If I durst I could say somewhat against some particulars B. God forbid you should have hurt for telling any one a necessary truth For my part I think and hope the best of all that promise fair I Judge according to charity I know one may act the Saint to day and the Devil to morrow Let me tell you 't is the judgement of our Church after the Fathers that Christ delivered the Sacrament to Judas also who went out immediatly after to betray him and before that was discovered by his Master to be a Devill You will not grant this however you know Peter himself that was so zealous upon triall the very next day denied his Master yea denied him
with cursing and swearing All the rest forsook him and fled Their strength was little and their knowledge was less witness the Disciples going to Emaus fools and slow of heart and the question proposed about the Kingdom Acts 1. What is the lowest measure of grace I will not determine Where I see any hopes or weak beginnings of Christianity I embrace and cherish them In the School of Christ there be many little ones that must be gently used and there be some great ones that must not be offended but upon great reasons Why should I not think better of others than my self when the B. Apostle calls himself the chiefest of sinners and less than the least of Saints He that hath beams to cast out of his own eve must not be picking motes out of his Brothers eye 'T is true the Brother must be admonished especially by the Minister but this must be done discreetly and orderly and with meekness of spirit He that obeys one or a few scapes the censure of the Many and may not be reckoned as an alien None is so but he that proves obstinate after the methods of Counsel and Reproof And verily Mr. H. it had been a good method for you to have admonisht me and the rest of the Congregation whom you are offended with and to have received our Answer before you condemn'd us in your Pulpit And that Answer will serve now In what we have offended God we ask his pardon In what we have offended you we will give you satisfaction Thus doing we shall not be excluded from Communion by any just sentence H. You have some that might be named that both before and after the Communion have shewed themselves no sober men B. That may be and I shall desire to be informed of them that I may labour to reform them or exclude them if they be proved open and notorious evill livers And I do often commend and endeavour to bring into better practice the Duty of fraternall Admonition and Correption which is now the more necessary because we want publick Discipline see D. Hammond of Fraternall Admonition Having declared my self thus I must conclude your Argument against my Communicants till you prove your Accusation better to be only an Argument of your own uncharitableness H. I cannot yet allow of your Call to Minister For Ministers truly called are appointed and ordained by the Godly people But you are not so appointed Therefore B. You will I hope hereafter allow me equall liberty to oppose your Orders I have mine from a Bishop assisted by his Presbyters according to Apostolicall Institution and the constant practice of the Church The People cannot confer on us our power They may approve and assent to our Calling and give testimony of our good conversation and receive us when we are sent unto them I am owned as a Rector of the People to whom I Minister W. We are servants of Gods people Paul I am sure saith so of himself B. He saith so and so doe I their servant for Jesus sake Let them acknowledge us their spirituall Rulers and Fathers in Christ and we will in all humble condescension be their Servants for Jesus sake Jesus himself our Lord and Master stiles himself a Minister or Servant of his Servants and he hath said He that will be greatest among you let him be Servant of all 'T is easy to distinguish between a servant by voluntary condescension and a servant by necessary subjection Tr. You said before that in case of prophaning the holy things you would confess a Minister deserves suspension Who shall suspend him but the Congregation What other power is there B. I confessed the prophaner of Holy things to deserve great punishment but after due Admonition and upon his obstinacy not else Yet I cannot see how the people have any Authority to sentence him Tr. Who would you have to do it Who B. To speak freely I would submit my self to my Ordinary the Apostolicall Bishop or if you like the Latin word better the President or Superintendent for whom I have spoken before And I am ready to joyn with you in a Petition that we may have an Apostolicall Bishop set over us as it was in practice of the antient Church H. You stand too much upon the practice of the Antient Church come to the Scripture B. I am sorry you value the practice of the antient Church so little Pray where is your maine strength in Scripture for your Independent or Congregationall Churches H. Let us read the famous Text Mat 18 15 16 17 18 19. 20. Out of which Text I frame this Argument If here be meant by the Church a Congregation from which lyes no Appeale then is the Independent Church founded upon this Text But here is meant a Congregation c. What else will you conceive by the Church B. I am very inclinable to Saint Chrysostome's interpretation who by the Church understandands the Elders and Rulers of the Church H. The word Church is no where so taken in all the Scripture and therefore it cannot be so taken here shew us any place B. It doth not follow for some word may possibly signify that in one place which it signifies no where else and again there may be other places though I cannot readily shew them I will consider of it H. No I doe assure you t is never so used and therefore I hope you will yeeld to the Word that we may go on with one consent in the work of God B. God grant it if it be the Work of God but you have not cleered it yet I cannot yield to your sense for this Reason That sense of Scripture concerning Church-government which was never received by the Doctors of the Antient Church is not the true sense of Scripture But your sense of the place was never received c. H. Still still he declines Scripture and would lead us to human Ordinances B. As for human Ordinances I can embrace them so far as they are not opposite to Scripture but now we are upon the Interpretation of Scripture I must profess I have been ever bred in the Church that requires all her Ministers to receive the Scripture as interpreted by the Antient Fathers and to propose nothing to the people contrary to what was derived out of the Scripture by them I am not ashamed of my Mother the Church of England nor by Gods grace ever shall I. And I doe heartily warn all that hear me to take heed as they tender their Soules of departing rashly from the Communion of of the said Church W. I thought where we should have you B. You have me where I have ever been and where I mean to abide till I am convinced I am not unwilling to learn of any one And pray Mr. W. tell me whether you hold not a Synod of chosen men gathered out of your Churches to have authority over them all W. No authority at all such a Synod may be of
use for advice and counsell not for goverment or for the exercise of any jurisdiction B. Then as I conceive your modell is very imperfect and me thinks your Ministers in their severall Congregations look like so many little Popes For the Pope is the Great Independent and will allow of no Appeal from him no more will you H. Pray Mr. B. quiet the People B. I beseech you good people I beseech you attend with silence and patience Tr. Where presently followes Execution there can be no appeal But after the sentence of the Congregation presently followes execution If he hear not the Church let him c. Therefore from the sentence of the Congregation can be no appeal B. Well argued I repeat Where presently c. I answer first to the major or first proposition There may be an appeal after execution of the sentence of the Congregation In your own way may not the wronged person appeal from you to your selves In the Presbyterian you know there lyes an appeal to the Classis but that I take not on me to maintain I know no power to excommunicate but Episcopall Tr. Then it seems by you the Bishop is the Church and the sole judge of the Congregations B. Not so neither Hear my Answer I pray and do not you ignorant fellowes laugh at that you do not understand The Bishop is considered either Sole or alone or as he sits in Cathedra crowned with Presbyters In this later sense I humbly conceive the Bishop is or ought to be Governour of the Congregations within his Diocese And such Bishops we can shew innumerable in the ancient Records of the Catholique Church I am very sorry these Gentlemen are so ill read in good Books of our own English Divines as to deny a truth shining so bright upon them Mr. Tr. have you not seen the learned Thorndike of the primitive Government c Tr. We cleave to the Scripture and call you to the foresaid text Can you shew one place where Church is taken for the Bishop and his Presbyters B. What if I cannot The Authority of the antient Fathers is sufficient for the present to commend my interpretation to such as reverence Antiquity But because I would gladly please you I will offer another sense of the words in question which will come neer to you but is not fully yours That is after the first admonition by one and the second before two or three it is the mind of Christ that a greater number should be made acquainted with the business tell it to the Many for the shaming of the offendor as the Apostle somewhere speaks the words may the more probably be taken in this sense because as yet the Disciples were not setled under a Church-government and so there remaining no more to be done after this shaming of the offendor before a good number of Fellow-Christians i. e. the Church he was to be henceforth till his amendment accounted as a heathen and might be prosecuted for any offence before the heathen Tribunalls Which prosecution was not lawfull against those that would hear the Church See 1 Cor. 6. But this will do you no pleasure unless that which followes in the next verse belong unto the Congregation too but that cannot be if Christ spake the words to his Apostles and gave the Keys and Power of Binding and Loosing to them and their successors as I believe he did Consider of it See the learned Dr. Hammond of binding and loosing To. Give me leave to add somewhat here in confirmation of what was last said Scripture you know gives light to Scripture Christ elswhere saith to Peter that he would give the Keys to him Matth. 16. 19. And John 20. 21 21 23. he speaketh to his Disciples and thus enstateth them in that power Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you as my Father hath sent me even so send I you And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them Receive yee the holy Ghost whosoever sins yee remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins ye retain they are retained these are the solemn words of Ordination W. The words are spoken to Peter and to the Disciples as they were Christian professors and so they do belong to our people not as they were appointed by Christ to be Governours of his Church To. The words signify a power committed to them which they used as Governours 't is plain and which they left to the Bishops their Successours Tr. The Apostles had no successors being gifted with a miraculous power B. The Apostles are to be considered in two respects either as planters of the Churches and to that purpose endued with a miraculous power to make way for and to give confirmation to the Gospel or else as Governours of the Churches invested with the ordinary lasting power of ordaining Elders of binding and loosing and of setting things in order herein who were their Successors you may see if you will inform your selves in the book of binding and loosing and in the Latin dissertations against Blondellus Pray take it not ill that we often assert this it is of such concernence that with this truth the Ministers of England must either stand or fall We speak not for Bishops to be Lords of Lands but Fathers of the Church You must all mark that Tr. The difference 'twixt us appears plainly you are for Bishops which you call the Primitive Apostolical Bishops and in them you place the power which Christ hath left to his Church We are for the Bodies of Congregations which we say are under no superiors neither Bishops nor Presbyters but absolute and independent in respect of man and immediatly under Jesus Christ Col. A. Bishops and Presbyters are all one in the New Testament namely Acts 20. 17. Paul sent to Ephesus and called the Elders of the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and v. 28. the holy Ghost hath made you overseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore Presbyters and Bishops are all one P. Noble Sir I answer Bishops in the new Testament are also called Presbyters but they are more than those we now call Presbyters who are to be ordained and governed by the Bishops Any Presbyter may be called Bishop or Overseer of his own Parish but those we eminently stile Bishops now who are Bishops or Overseers and Rulers of those Parish Bishops or Presbyters The Presbyters St. Paul sent for from Ephesus were properly Bishops Tr. No Hear my Argument The Church of Ephesus was but one Congregation I prove it out of Eph. 2. the two last verses In whom Jesus Christ all the building fitly framed together c. A building fitly framed together is but one Congregation But the Church of Ephesus was a building fitly framed together Therefore c. B. To the Major Not only one single Congregation but many united under one Bishop may be so called And that Ephesus was not a single Independent Congregation but a