reiected make the case more ambiguous becaus they giue meÌ„ power out or such or such a probabilitie to coniecture a truth and out of coniecturall proofe to belieue it For as we all confesse that what soeuer is certainely knowne to be scripture is not to be touched so we know likewise that what soeuer may be doubted of whether it be scripture or no obligeth to no such respect Wherefore if reason conclude and tell vs that in all likelyhood there hath beene twenty variae lectiones in euerie particular columne though perhapps two or three only are extant the rest probably knowne to haue beene yet so as that there is no certaine signe of which or where they were And now there cometh one to presse a place in this or that columne which his opponent thinketh to be contrarie to other places may he not then iustly saiâ—â— sir I mistrust this place to be corrupted Or can his Aduersarie in prudence vrge it on as an assured text Or can he presse and auerre for certaine that this is none of the 17. vnknowne variae lectiones Certes he cannot abstracting from all warrant and commande of the church and standing to pure and precise reason So that all controuersies would be ended where nothing but scripture is admitted as iudge with a Non liquet Nephew I expected you should haue shewed me how hard it is to agree about the true sense of the words of the scripture but as I now perceiue there is as much difficultie to know whether we haue the true and right text or no which if it were well conceâ—â—â—d and vnderstood by our deuout and pure citizen's Wifes of London who turne and vew the text so curiously wheÌ„ the preacher citeth it I belieue it would much coole the zeale of their spirit if such a qualme should come ouer their stomackes as to thinke these words peraduenture are not the Holy scripture But to this vncle may you not add the varietie of translations I pray tell me §. 6 What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations haue bread in scripture VNcle No doubt cozen but great vncertaintie is sprung from the varietie of translations Whereof we may first suppose that there is no constat of anie infalibilitie in the translatours no not of the septuaginta them selues what of the septuaginta translation which the Protestants will easily graÌ„t I know there is a storie how that the septuagiÌ„ta being seperated one froÌ„ an other their traÌ„slatioÌ„ light to be the same word for word Which if it were certaine I should esteeme their traÌ„slation of as great authoritie as the originall text it self But we see that eueÌ„ in the Apostles time some sought to mende their interpretation as Theodotion and Aquila whose translations were neuerthelesse accepted of by the church and conserued and esteemed Wherefore there is no likelyhood that the Apostles and the church of their times held the septuaginta traÌ„latioÌ„ to be specially froÌ„ the holy ghost Not doth it import that the Apostles some times vsed in their speeches or writings this translation for they must needes vse it or none wheÌ„ they wrote to those whose language was Greeke and therefore would haue thought them to haue mistaken the text if they had cited the scripture's words according to the Hebrew When the Hebrew was differeÌ„t from the Greeke Nor can wee certainely tell that is was alwayes the Apostle that vsed it and not the Historian Who writing in Greeke and to Grecians cited the Greeke words what words soeuer the Apostle had vsed being both to the same effect The next point which we may considere in this varietie of translations is why diuers traÌ„slations in the same tongue that neuer anie begane a new version in the same language but for some mislike in the former For if he thought a new traÌ„slation to be necessarie he must needes conceiue that the former traÌ„slator had in manie and important pointes missed and altered the minde of the author Whereby euerie wisman will see that a booke of importaÌ„ce is neuer left of to be translated vntill there be some inhibition to the contrrrie And hence we may conclude that it is impossible for a translator to be so exact as that his words shall be taken for the words of the author Nay contrariewise it is the law of a good translator not to yeild word for word with the verie originall but to expresse the seÌ„se thereof in the best manner he can For since no two laÌ„guages jumpe equaly in their expressions it is impossible that euerie word of the one should haue a full expression of euerie word of the other much lesse that their phrases should be the same so that per force there must needes be a great differeÌ„ce in particulars although the substance of the sense and meaning be the same And who should conferre anie one chapter of two translations in the same language and see whether anie one senteÌ„ce doe so exactly agree as that scanning rigorously the varietie of their words there may not be some different sence gathered out of them And he will not denie but t' is impossible to put fully and beyond all quarell the same sense in diuers words And truly I thinke that euerie one wil admit at least as much difference and varietie betwixt the originall and the translation as betwixt translation and translation these agreeing in the same tongue those not and yet hauing all the other reasons of disagreeing And doe you not thinke cozen that if one should take twentie of the best schollers in a schoole and giue them an author to translate ether out of latin into English or out of English into latin that their translations would so differ in manie sentences as that diuers senses might be easily gathered out of them And iudge there vpon that when witts are sett contentiously to discusse euerie possible varietie what truth can be conuinced where anie two may disagree though both acknowledge the author An other considerable circuÌ„stance is that amoÌ„gst all antient translations none can be reiected because it may euer be supposed that the reasoÌ„ of this varietie may proceede from a various copie out of which they were translated and by reason we cannot disapproue the copie as wee said before we cannot therefore likewise nether iustly nor certainely refuse the translation hauing nothing to grounde such refusall but coniectures and likelyhoods which be verie imperfect And if we come to calculate we may verie well suppose that there are now some twenty translations made into seuerall laÌ„guages I might put more for there hath beene peraduenture 200 latin translations considering the greatnesse of the Roman Empire for so manie Ages and the esteeme of the booke making euerie man desirous to haue an exact text none being as yet euer acknowledged for such nor anie prohibition of translating scripture Which varietie of latin translations the Protestants them selues acknowledge and saie verie well that they perished after S. Hierome's
taken which I coÌ„ceiue is caled Equiuocation The origine of equiuocation And sithence there is no other grounde for ether of these significations but man's will which cannot be easily demonstrated I know not well how the truth can bee certainly knowne Vncle. You saie verie well for the signification of words must needes depende of maÌ„'s will and of the custome or vse of them two verie mutable things Wherefore separating these two and taking words in them selues you shall finde that man's will doth put diuers significations vpon the same word ether by chance or onsett pourpose by chance as you declared but now which in deede doth not teach to manie words but is casuall as the cause of it is on sett pourpose and that ether for want of words or by desire of elegance and varietie in our deliuerie And this belongeth to allmost all the words wee haue for there is scarsely anie word if you note it but may be so vsed and if it may be so taken it is so one time or other This multiplicitie of variously taking words in Logicke is said by who maketh the least to be eight fold for some make no end of multiplying the sortes of it And vnder the name of Equiuocation or Analogie it much confoundeth all scholasticall learning Now for the custome and vse of words there be manie things to be respected as the varieties of times and qualities of persoÌ„s for in one time a word may signifie one thing and in an other a quite differeÌ„t thing So wee see that those who write of eloquence giue words their births â—nd ould ages And likewise who knowes not how great difference there is betwixt the vse of words in the Court or vniuersitie or great cities and the vse of the same words in remoter parts and villages Nay if you marke it you shall finde that as languages in generall are the institution of a multitude of men so almost euerie particular man is Master and as it were founder of some particular expressions or phrases not common to others whereby some declare them selues more exactly and plainely others more confusedly and ambiguously in so much that Critickes curious in antient Writings Will attribute or derogate certaine workes from Authors vpon this only ground And now I pray cozen in such an antient writing as the scripture is how manie ambiguities may grow from all these principles Or rather what certaintie can be had out of such multiplicitie of vncertitudes But let me particularly vrge one thing that is whether t' is possible that a language should be entirely conserued in written bookes which still remaine the same Nephew Why not if there be bookes enough How a laÌ„guage is conserued for then all the words of that language may be found in them in all their senses and then I thinke the language cannot perish Vncle. Your answere is partly true but not sufficient for you were to considere whether so manie bookes of one language may haue beene conserued for if the Countrie be litle few bookes will be written in the language but if the language be dispersed through manie Countries it will haue it 's proper words and significations for euerie Countrie So that bookes being written for the subiects and not for the language as Dictionaries and phrase bookes are it must needes follow that only so much of the language will be conserued as is necessarie for the vnderstanding of those bookes which of them selues are so good as that the people will still desire to haue them and continue them Wherefore nether all bookes that are written nor if we iudge by these of our time anie notable part wil be conserued nor yet the whole language contained in all the bookes that are written And if part of the language be lost part conserued of necessitie the conserued part must be imperfect by the mistake of such words as be rarely found and where they are found only ghest at by the rest which are to make sense with them And all this equiuocall ambiguitie is purely in the bare words not yet placed in construction Nephew I thinke so vncle for altough I see there be cases numbers moodes tenses and persons in euerie language yet I hope those doe rather take awaie equiuocation then make it Vncle. It is true those things are made to take awaie equiuocation but if you reflect you shall finde that the want of them and the confused or vnexact vse of them doth likewise cause it and where they are more aboundant as in some languages there the abuse of them is more frequent people being in nothing more vnwarie theÌ„ in their words And where they are but rare and few that likewise of it self causeth ambiguitie And if you will looke into those particular languages wherein the scripture was primitiuely written you shall finde that the Hebrew hath eight moodes wholy different from anie of ether the Greeke or Latin moodes and euer varying the sense as much as the actiue and passiue doe in Latin and Greeke The Greekes haue seuen tenses all of different significations and of numbers genders persons three a peece The Latin six cases So that you see new occasions of Equiuocation almost in euerie word and consequently what obscuritie and doubtfullnesse must of necessitie follow anie language or sense relying vpon words and yet for breuitie sake I haue not tould you the half of what the matter giueth me scope to saie for the scripture dependeth and hath beene originally written in more languages then I haue spoken of Where of some haue much more varietie then anie of those that I haue expressed For coÌ„struction you may first conceiue that the verie pointing and accenting of words doth beget a number of doubts and Equiuocations a diuers comma or virgula making some times the sense quite different Secondly that word which is construed with an other to cleere the signification of it is some times it selfe of no lesse ambiguitie then the other Thirdly in the same construction it may happen that the same two words will haue diuers senses And of all these your Grammer and Oratory Masters doe enlarge their precepts And aboue all there is an Equiuocation in the most commoÌ„ words wee vse rising out of a kinde of custome depending of particular times and places which the compilers of the Ciuill law thought to be of so great importance as that they iudged it necessarie to make a speciall booke de vsu interpretatione verborum and that for the commonest words that were in vse These reasons being vnauoidable in anie language by human industrie are more then sufficient to let you see that t' is impossible to conuince and demonstrate anie thing out of bare and dead words and that who vndertakes such a taske doth not see what hee attempteth Nephew If all these things bee true which you tell me I wonder with what face anie man can pretende to conuince pointes of controuersies so clearely out of the scripture
a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske §. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my Religiō out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozē there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitiō to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commēded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indifferēcie ād with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozē how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of scripture these truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that cānot be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experiēce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inuētion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a mā or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are dōne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatiō haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatiō of Religiō out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue ād definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray §. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr frō disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a Protestāt vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres stāding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what sēse the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in
possession of that sense of the scripture which they pretēded to be false and wrōg And surely no man of common sense who is in possessiō and hath the law in his owne hands will yeild it vp without euidence on the cōtrarie part The second rule I desire a Catholike should obserue is not to thinke his cause lost because him self cannot answere the argumēts proposed against him nor to venter his cause and his possession vpon his owne wit For the disputation being in a matter wherein according to the Protestants groundes there is no certaintie it followeth that who hath the better wit or is more practized in this matter may bring an argumēt a good scholler cannot solue at the first sight though afterwards ether he or some other may And what a follie were it for a man to venture his soule and conscience vpon a subtilitie or present flash of wit whereof peraduenture within an hower hee him selfe will see the falsitie and condemne his owne errour Wherefore a Catholike is not to venter the cause vpon his owne head nor to confesse it weake because he cannot defende it for both may he improue him selfe and some others perhapps may goe farr beyōd him The third rule is that the Catholike should neuer vndertake to conuince his Aduersarie out of scripture but content him self that these words may well beare this sense which is in fauour of the Catholike church And this is both more easie to performe and sufficient for his pourpose For the Catholike hath an assured grounde of his faith besides scripture and which relyeth not vpon it nay he holdeth that his Religion cannot be wholy conuinced out of scripture to what end therefore vnlesse he would show his wit should he vndertake to proue his tenents by scripture For this were to strenghen his opponent in his owne grounde and principle to wit that all is to be proued out of scripture Nephew You would binde Protestants to verie vnequall conditions if you will oblige them to conuince and the Catholike not nay that it shal be sufficient for the Catholike to shew this may be the meaning of this or that place of scripture whereas the Protestant shal be forced to proue cleerely and euidently that this is the verie sense of the text Vncle. Not I cozen but the Protestants them selues oblige thē selues to this hard measure for if a man should strongly mātaine that a Beetle were the best instrument to cut withall and you saie no were no he bound to cut with a Beetle and it were no sense to saie that you should be forced to doe it since you mantaine it to be impossible So they who hold that the scripture is the true iudge of controuersies and fit and able to decide all quarells and dissensions about the Christian faith and law binde them selues by holding this to conuince their positions by scripture which cānot be exacted at his hands Who saith scripture was not made for this end nor is sufficient for it And looke vpon Luther and the Heretikes of his timē nay vpon the Puritants of our days and see if they doe not all mātaine that they can conuince their tenēts by scripture and saie that our forefathers were wholy ignorant of scripture and that wee now liuing knowe nothing of it But to goe on with our rules of disputing out of scripture The fourth condition shall bee that the Catholike doe not admitte anie negatiue proofes as to saie this is an errour because you can shew no scripture for it For this is no proofe vnlesse they will suppose that nothing is true but scripture or that there is nothing to bee donne but what is ordained by scripture which were absurd for nether Catholike nor I thinke anie good Protestant will admitte of that supposition being it were not only to take away the power of the church but euen nature from nature for nature teacheth vs to helpe our selues where scripture doth not contradict and as a Puritant seeketh a pulpit or high place to preach in without looking whether he haue a warrant for it in the scripture to command him so rationall and sensible men doe seeke a particular habit for a preacher or Clergie man whereby he may be more decent and comely and his words and exhortations be receiued with more respect and authoritie and this without anie cōmande of the scripture which where it commandeth it maketh the thing cōmanded to be necessarie where it is silent there it maketh nothing vnlawfull Nephew If the Protestants were to disput vpon these conditions they would keepe of I warrant you Yet this I must tell you that it were a great satisfaction for indifferent men that haue beene brought vp in this verball and apparent respect of the scripture to see that the positions you would induce them vnto can bee and are maintened by scripture and that they are grounded therein This perhapps you can doe by shewing mee some other waie of dealing with thē and whether there be not §. 15 An other manner of disputing out of scripture VNcle For their sakes cozen I will tell you of an other sort of disputation wherein the Protestant shall haue no other disaduantage but of his cause For I thinke that the Catholike cause may not only be maintened by scripture but also that it hath the better stāding precisely to scripture alone I confesse this kinde of disputation is not fit for manie Auditors but only for moderate and vnderstanding men And it is to make this the question Whether partie is more probable if only scripture were to bee alleadged This Question requireth diuers suppositions where vpon both sides are to be agreed which I feare will bee some what hard As what texts are to preuaille what cōmentaries or explicatiōs shall be allowed of what is a proper and an improper speeche amongst improper speeches which must be preferred what copies of euerie text shal be held for good what coniectures shall be accounted null against the naturall sense And manie other such positions which would not be easily resolued This donne let both sides bring their places for the pointe in question and so the disputatiō will only be of the qualificatiō of the places that is to shew whether are more apparēt and likely of the two And for this I see lekewise that so manie logicall principles are first to bee resolued which partly are found as yet amongst the critickes disputations as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford sufficiēt light and instruction to make an euident conclusion whether side were more apparent in words and Tetxs And therefore you may ghesse how farr these disputations out of scripture are frō clearing doubts what litle good cometh of them vnlesse they bee well gouerned And how for the most part the best credit or the best tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weaknesse In a word the scripture being not written for this end to wit for the
two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can
mā's estate vpon peraduentures were something hard and not verie rationally done Wherefore I should be glad to conceiue more fully §. 4 The force and efficacitie of these your discourses and persuasiōs VNCLE Why cosen what securitie doe your marchāts your states mē your soliers those that goe to law nay euen those that till their grounds and worke for their liuings what securitie I saie doe all these goe vpon Is it greater thē the securitie which these grounds doe afford Surely no. And yet no man esteeme's them foolish All human affaires are hazardous and haue some aduenture in them And therefore who require's euident certaintie only in matters of Religion discouer's in him self a lesse minde to the goods promised in the next life then to these which he seeke's here in this world vpon weaker assurāce Howsoeuer the greatest euidence that can be to him that is not capable of conuincing demōstrations which the greatest part of mankinde fall shortof is but cōiecturall for men doe not generally distinguish betwixt a solide and a wittie proofe and are as soone taken with a glosse or iesting speach as with a demonstration Let but this verie proofe I haue told you be put to some two men the one more the other lesse iudicious and the one perhapps will hold it for euident the other only for apparent and likly And certainely it is manifest that if our church was once the true church they who made a breach from hir must needes haue euident proofes of hir corruption or else be culpable of faction and schisme And yet of these two men I propose the one peraduenture will take this argumēt only for plausible and at the least checke forgoe it the other looking into the nature of Gouermēt and seeing what a flaw the contrarie position breede's in it and how in effect it destroye's all Gouerment will thinke it so strong that what soeuer is or can be said against it is but the playing of witt against pure euidēce Farther if we Catholikes hold the truth of scripture as conscientiously as anie Protestant and therefore that all controuersies betwixt vs and them are only concerning the sense of it and not touching the truth of it t' is manifest that Catholikes must ether be such dull dunces as not to vnderstand their arguments or so willfull as not to acknowledge what they see ād know otherwise surely they would agree with Protestants in all pointes which they could cōuince and demonstrate And againe this man who perceth deeper into the strength of this argument see 's that although some times learning may faile ād that vertue may haue a bridle for a while yet would not learnīg be learning if it should not for the most part worke it's effect in men and make them more capable of reason then others And much lesse can it be true vertue which is seldome efficacious sithence vertue 's nature is to be operatiue Wherefore this vnderstanding man that see 's there 's a more constant poursuite of vertue and learning on the one side then on the other conclude's euidently that there cā be no extraordinarie weaknesse on the learneder and more vertuous side in cōparison of the other And where he see 's more meanes paines and fruits of learning and vertue on the one side then on the other he will no more doubt supposing this be a constant and setled course on both sides but that of necessitie there must be more learning and vertue on that side where he see 's these effects no more I saie thē he can doubt whether necessarie causes will haue their effects as whether fire and towe put together will burne or whether effects cā be without their causes as howses clockes and the like without Carpenters smiths and other Artizans Yet perhapps he that barely looke's vpon the superficies of this discourse take's it only for a pleasing and probable consequence Ioyne to this the multitudes of Antiquitie I meane those ages wherein the Protestants acknowledge the Raigne of Poperie and surely thē there will not remaine to an vnderstanding man anie iuste cause to feare or complaine of hazard but rather a great occasion to admire and praise God's wisdome who hath prouided so short and secure a meanes for euerie man who is so happy and carefull as to acknowledge and embrace this guide of eternall saluatiō looking with an eye of commiseration vpō those whose dispositiōs being not fitted to the sight of this truth remaine in doubt and ignorance by diuing into questions wherein they are not able to finde satisfaction and so cast them selues awaie not for want of meanes but ether through their owne pride or by the misleading of their Directors Who not seeing what 's conuenient for the dispositiōs of their disciples throwe thē vpon the Rockes in stead of giuing them a fit harbour to anker in for if they would rely vpon this plane and open waie of our discourse commō sense would tell them if not what 's true at least what they ought to follow ād that as cleerely as that two and three are fiue Nephew I confesse the euidence you pleade is greate yet me thinke's one might obiect that seeing we heare it so often and so strongly beatē into vs that all men are falible and that nature it selfe seeme's to teach the same therefore as on the one side your reasons force me to grant that t' is the wiser course to vēter this waie so on the other I still remaine with this disposition that it may peraduenture be false which is able to shake a man's resolution and cowle his affection Vncle. Cosen you desire great matters and peraduenture more then your age and wauering dtsposition is able to beare Yet to complye with your good desires I will put you in the waie if you will haue patience to follow the tracke and you shall see §. 5 That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue descended entire vnto vs. FIrst therefore tell me I pray what time thinke you Christ and his Apostles imployed in preaching the Ghospell in anie one countrie Nephew I know Christ imployed some three yeares and a halfe or thereabouts for I thinke the time is not precisely agreed vpon by Cronologers But for the Apostles that I know not nor cā I guesse to what pourpose you aske me this question Vncle. Is it not like the Apostles bestowed neere about as much time S. Paule him self saie's so telling the Clergie of Ephesus that for three yeares he had not ceassed day and night to exhorte them with teares and warne them to take heede of false teachers And we may well thinke the like of the rest of the Apostles wheresoeuer they could conueniently doe it but specially in the churches in which they made their Residence But why thinke you tooke they so much time for so short a doctrine as you see Christian doctrine is being included in our Creede Nephew No doubt but their imployment was to make their
determine what 's fitt and conuenient for the whole Christian communitie and strugling to force their opinions vpon the church against the sentence of the churche's Gouernors which surely ought to preuaille in such a case Looke but into the exemples of anie polliticall common wealth and see what inequalitie there is betwixt twelue pence and a man's life and yet our laws ordaine the losse of life for the stealth of a shilling or there abouts not considering the valew of the thing stollen but that such a fact is the breach of publicke iustice in the common wealth which if it were permitted no mā should be Maister of his owne This then being supposed I doubt not but you will grant likewise that in a church vertue is to be engendred and conserued with great care and diligence And although the same things which first breede pietie and deuotion doe afterwards conserue it yet may there be some things more proper for the conseruation then for the breeding of it and contrariewise others more proper for breeding then conseruing it according as the different state of anie thing that growe's towards perfection doth require a diuers care and attendance Tell me then cozen how thinke you is the breeding of vertue performed in man kinde I meane not the first breeding How vertue is bredde in man which is donne by instruction but the flourishing increase of it and the bringing of it to strength Nephew Sithence vertue is nothing but the loue of what is truly good for man and that we cannot loue what we know not vertue must needes be cheefly increased by cleerely seeing and often thinking of the thing we ought to loue and of such things as belong vnto it and make it appeare worthie of loue Amongst which one is that it be in our power to obtaine it Where vpon I see that the breeding of vertue consisteth in three things often thinking of it's obiect highly esteeming of it and conceiting it to be possible Which corresponde's to the three stepps and degrees you made of tēding to anie good And if these three things be well obserued and performed by anie societie of men vertue must of necessitie increase and florish in that communitie Vncle. I am glad you profit so well and make such good vse of what I saie If now therefore cozen the disputs and differences which are in particular positions betwixt vs and Protestants doe concern◠all these three pointes and that highly will you not confesse that they are of great importance For the first you haue heard I am sure how God Allmightie in the old law would haue men's harts perpetually busied about his law how he would haue them to thinke of it at home and vpon the high waie morning and euening how he would haue his comandments bound to their hands and so euer wagging before their eyes and written vpon the frontispice of their houses All which was to signifie that the memorie of God's law could not be too great being not sufficient to thinke of it in the church only or at vacant times from necessarie labours but that our thoughts ought euer to be imployed that waye The like doth the Catholike church causing to be erected vpon the highwaies in market-places and in corners of streetes some times crosses with our sauiour's image nailed vpon them some times his flagellation his coronation his resurrection his ascention or some other mysterie of our redēption or pious representation to putt vs in minde of what ought to moue vs to the loue of God which are frequently to be seene in Catholike countries in euerie house in euerie roome ouer euerie dore whereof there be yet some markes in our owne Countrie And can you thinke that this diligence of our forefathers compared to those commāds of God Allmightie in the old law to be ouer much Or that the zeale of those who pulled downe these memories of Christianitie was according to science Doth not the questiō of this pointe cleerely concerne the increase of vertue and the churches Gouerment Surely it doth For I thinke no wise and indifferent man can doubt but that pictures must needes breede manie good thoughts which would neuer haue beene without them What true Christian can looke vpon the representation of anie bloodie passage of our sauiour's passion but he will be moued to some good thought or sentiment if he haue anie feeling of Christianitie in him Or if some be not moued to pious thoughts by such an obiect will not manie others be And none can doubt but that from such deuout thoughts doe naturally proceede and floe manie vertuous affections and these affections doe engender perfection it being their connaturall leauings and effect And this perfection is that which saueth our soules So that you see some come to saluation others to a higher degree of perfection and cōsequently of Blisse by the vse of pictures Where by the waye you may note that if pictures haue this effect in our soules to what degree of reuerence and affection will not the blessed Sacrement it selfe raise them who truly and assuredly belieue Christ's reall corporall and substantiall presence to be cōtinually in their churches and vpon their Altars And what a motife of loue doe they take from the church who refuse and denye this pointe Nephew You speake with reason and common sense in my iudgment And in deede the price of one soule is more worth then anie temporall good euen of state nay euen of the whole world which besides the pregnant reasons I haue heard you giue for this pointe our sauiour him selfe doth testifie it in expresse and plaine words Neuerthelesse vncle Math. 16. I see t' is the course of the world not to esteeme of a smale part of a great number but to looke only vpon the greatest part Which whether it be the shortnesse of our discourse and in Gouerment not able to reach to particulars or whether it be the mutabilitie of nature not suffering it self to be bound to some one straine though the best and perfectest which causeth this our vnhappinesse I know not but so t' is that a smale number is not regarded Which I speake to this pourpose that one might answere your discourse in a word and saie The good which the vse of pictures bringe's is so smale and litle that it is not worthie looking after and therefore may well be neglected without anie great losse HoW the vse of pictures Worke it's effect in man Vncle. Few words cozen may putt a man to a great difficultie And the rather in this matter because the vse of images hath two conditions the one that it worke 's it's effect by litle and litle so that the present effect is almost still imperceptible the other that it is neuer the jmmediate nor the sole cause of it's effect but hath euersome other cause ioyned with it which may produce the same effect without it so that I saie hauing these two conditions t' is
correction and amendment of the Bible whose complaints of the varietie of texts all the world knowes and indeede the inutilitie and discommoditie of such multiplicitie caused them all to be neglected though some thinke our vulgata editio to haue euer beene conserued Howsoeuer we may goe on with our supposition and add that of those twenty trāslatiōs now extāt euerie one is equall to anie other Let then a sentence be proposed whose nature and definition is to decide a controuersie but with this condition which ordinarily happeneth in such a case to witt that it dependeth on the proprietie of some word or on the Emphasis of some manner of speaking Is it possible that anie reasonable man should thinke that all these translations will agree in such a thing Three or fouer peraduenture may but for twentie t' is absolutly impossible And if anie one of these translations be substantially different all the rest cannot with certaintie or euidence beare it downe sithence this might be out of a different copie with which perhapps agreed more then we haue so that we shall still returne to our former non liquet And hence followeth that although a translation in the whole bulke be morally the same booke with the originall yet metaphysically and rigorously there is great diuersitie and at least such as in our case maketh all translations of the scripture vnfitt to decide cōtrouersies by them Nephew Your discourse will not only make mee beleeue what I haue heard reported S. Augustin should saie Epist Man funda cep 5. that hee would not belieue scripture vnlesse the church's authoritie moued him therevnto but I feare it tendeth to the too great weakening of the scripture which hath beene so happily planted in the church and got this supereminent authoritie which it hath to some good effect without doubt though not for the decision of controuersies and therefore you will proue to much and in seeking to destroy one errour you will bee in danger to fall into an other This I am sure of that if you should preach this doctrine at S. Antolins the people would stone you with their brasencornerd Bibles though peraduenture if they laid all their heads together they could not giue you a sufficient answere But thus much I learne now when I reflect vpon them that they haue no reason to obiect against vs our trusting of our church and Pastours for the sense and explication of the scripture whereas thē selues must needes rely vpon a douzen or twenty Parsons or Ministers if there were so manie imployed in their translation for the verie text it self whose skills or wills might be defectiue according to their owne maxime so that we rely vpon the whole church they pore people vpon what they nether thinke certaine nor infalible nor probable but as farr as they please Vncle. I will finde a time to satisfie your feares of my diminishing the scripture's authoritie and will shew you how all I haue said doth nothing preiudice the layfull and intended vse of the scripture and if I should chance to forget I pray you put mee in minde before we part For the present I will propose you an other difficultie which is §. 7 Whether the verie rehearsing and citing of an others words doe not breede varietie and vncertaintie ANd let vs suppose the writer him self play the translatour As for example that our sauiour him self hauing spoken in Hebrew or Syriake the Holy writer is to expresse his words in Greeke or Latin And farther that this which we haue said of translatiōs be as truly it is groūded in the verie nature of diuers languages and therefore vnauoidable by anie art or industrie will it not clearely followe that euen in the originall copie writtē by the Euāgelist's owne hand there is not in rigour the true and self-significant words of our sauiour but rather a comment or Paraphrase explicating and deliuering the sense thereof Nay let him haue written in the same language and let him haue set downe euerie word and sillable yet men conuersant in noting the changes of meanings in words will tell you that diuers accents in the prononciation of them the turning of the speakers head or bodie this way or that way the allusion to some person or to some precedēt discourse or the like may so change the sense of the words that they will seeme quite different in writing from what they were in speaking So that you see how like negligent men wee cōmonly vse to presse words as the proper and identicall words of our sauiour finding them registred in the Holy writt Which in rigour and exactly speaking are but in some sorte an imperfect and equiuocall paraphrase or expression of Christ's owne true words the weakenesse of mā's speach and expressiō bearing no greater exactnesse And surely all experienced men but especially disputatife schollers who finde meanes dayly to explicate the planest words of ā authour to a quite different sense will tell you that to seeke to conuince an exact truth out of bare and dead words is to put your self into a darke some and wild laborinth And to rely vpon them is to fixe the Camelions colours in the currēt of the winde or water Wherefore cozen hauing I thinke sufficiently tould you my minde concerning the text it self let vs goe farther and looke into §. 8 The vncertaintie of equiuocatiō which of necessitie is incident in all writings ANd to proceede more clearely wee will suppose for the present that there is but one authenticall copie of the scripture written in some one language and hereby abstract from all varieties of texts by translations or errours or anie such accident and meerely considere what of necessitie followes out of this that the scripture is a booke written in words of men and whether this supposed there can be anie decisiue and decretory sense euidently and certainely gathered out of it Tell me then cozen doe you thinke t' is an easie matter to decide cōtrouersies by words or why not Nephew I know words are but signes of what is in our mindes sett and ordained to that ende by the will of man wha ars words and therefore that diuers men signifying their mindes by diuers signes come to make diuers languages And I know likewise that though it bee an ordinarie thing amongst vs to hange vp a bush to signifie thereby that in the house there is wine to be sould yet peraduenture in an other coūtrye some thing else may signifie the selling of wine and a bush some other thing So may it happen that the same word in one language may signifie one thing and in an other some thing else And because I likewise see that it may so fall out that these two nations ioyne in one or haue much commerce together by vse and custome this word may come to haue two significations euen in the same language And so will breede a difficultie in whether of the two senses it is to be
vseth them much inteÌ„de's not his writings should be dogmaticall and decisiue Translations or metaphores are cause of great obscuritie and therefore we see the Poets who cheefely vse them are not to be redd vntill a man be exercised in theÌ„ without studie and paines Nor doe anie Greeke or Latin examples shew that strength which the scripture hath in this kinde The number or Cadence which one would thinke could not be suspected of anie such matter is a cause of great ambiguitie for the Hebrews being wholy giuen there vnto in their scripture haue so manie accents of diuers effects whereof one manie times staÌ„deth for an other or is like an other in figure that you had neede of an Ariadne to lead you thorough Some of their accents are Grammaticall some Rhetoricall some musicall and as much a doe with them as with the reste of the words and verie hard it is to know when it is one accent when it is an other and when it hath this effect when that Who therefore would haue recourse to the Hebrew Text for precise and conuincing decisions doth like him that being not skillfull at his weapon would choose vpon a challenge for the hower of his combat a moonelesse midnight when the skill of his enimie could not preiudice him Nephew Marrie sir I thinke such a man should doe wisely for the question being not of fencing but of valour his enimie's skill would be no disaduantage vnto him But yet I cannot commende him that chooseth obscuritie for the decision of a doubt vnlesse he feare his cause and thinke him self in the wrong and then peraduenture his witt may be commended Vncle. It is sufficient for mee that you conceiue that this is not the way to cleere the truh To the Greeke text therefore which I will tell you that the ambiguitie of it is nothing so great as of the Hebrew yet hath it two defects The one that it wanteth those sense varying coniugations whereby the Orientall languages expresse them selues the other that by abundance or rather redundance of vnprofitable varieties it is both hard to learne and vncertaine in seÌ„se the same word signifying diuersly ether because of diuers Dialectes or of diuers applications of authours so manie hauing written in seuerall countries not depending one of an other and hauing great diuersitie of phansies Their prepositions both in constructioÌ„ and composition are irregular changing some times the sense of the primatiue verie extrauagantly in so much that meere ghesse and coniecture must preuaille the word if it be coÌ„mon being vsed in sundrie seÌ„ses if it be rare the meaning of it must be gathered out of some thing adiacent Nephew Here is enough vncle of this verball and GraÌ„maticall stuffe Wherefore I will now put you in minde of your promise to wit that you will tell mee to what end the scripture was left to the church since by reason of it's ambiguitie it is not fit to be a judge of controuersies Vncle. I will tell you presently but first I haue a word more to saie vnto you wherein because I see you are half wearie I wee wil be short and it shal bee to shew you §. 11 That the verie nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting to decide controuersies TEll me then cozen suppose you were to giue a law in writing which should last for manies ages and be obserued in manie couÌ„tries how would you cause it to be written I meane not for the language but for the frame of the worke and for the manner or methode of the deliuerie of it Nephew I doe not professe my self able to bee a law-maker yer according to the example of our laws and of the ciuill law In What forme laws ought to be made and I imagine the like of the laws of other countries it were me thinke's to be donne thus I would first cause the most commoÌ„ things to be commanded then by degrees I would descende to particulars still obseruing that seuerall matters should be vnder seuerall chapters or diuisions and not one peece here an other there euerie chapter containing all things necessarily belonging to that matter Farther I would distinguish the degrees of commandes by the degrees of penalties and rewards And if anie thing were fit partly to be declared partly to be left to discretion I would expresse so much that there might be no mistake As for the stile I would endeauour to make it the most proper and exact that possibly I could explicating ambiguous words to my power and declaring in what sense they were to be taken cutting of all superfluous words which might anie waye confound or prolong the sentences without necessitie In fine I would labour to make it the most ordinarie the most plaine and the most short that my witts could reach vnto and then according as I should haue followed these rules I should thinke to haue performed my raske Vncle. I see you would make a good states man And if reason teach you this will not the same reason tell you likewise that if the Authour of reason him self were to giue a law would he not doe the same in a more perfect degree And if in anie booke he hath not donne it doth not the same reasoÌ„ tell you that his intention was not that that booke should be a iudging law Let vs therefore see whether these conditions be obserued in the scripture or no And if it be manifest that the scripture hath them not this controuersie must needes be at an end sithence it will euidently follow that God neuer ordained the scripture for anie such pourpose but for some thing els and consequently that it were as ridiculous to seeke the decision of controuersies out of scripture as to cut with beetle or knoke with a strawe Deuiding therefore th holy scripture you shall finde The diuision of the â—ookes of the old TestameÌ„t that the bookes of the old Testament sauing Deuteronomie which is or containeth the old law with much admixtion of historie are ether Historicall oratoricall poeticall or Philosophicall Whereof the three first are excluded by their verie names from the qualities and conditions of a law instituted for the deciding of quarells though some coÌ„mandes may be therein contained vpon occasion The philosophicall bookes are such as touch litle vpon our coÌ„trouersies because they are but ether morall instructions for the life and conuersation of men amongst their neigbours or else they treate and speake only of such pointes as wee and all our Aduersaries agree in But in deede there is a maine reason against the whole text of the old law which is that the commandes were giuen as we saie personally to one people and did no farther belong to the rest of the world then in that they were naturall commandes that is in the vertue of nature obliging to obedience So that who soeuer will argue out of the old Testament must first proue the commande to be naturall which if he doe