patched togither the Apologie For the printed sermon it is well confirmed by the Replie and the Replie is not yet found blameable notwithstanding this Reioinder the Apologie that he liketh to terme patched now after the time that God had apointed it doeth not want my defence the booke is pretious and is defended by suche a Iuell that all the treasuries in the world God make him thankful wil not buy his gifts therfore M. Hardings words cā not hurt him The B. of Sarisb Christ is set forth not to be receiued with the mouth for that as Cyrill saith were a grosse imagination Harding The .104 vntruthe Christ must be receiued with the mouth The .105 vntruthe Cyrill saith not so Dering This is one with the .102 vntruthe Master Hardings transubstantiation standeth him in very good stead to multiply his vntruthes And yet if he had well considered it it had not bene worth his doubling I haue spoken somewhat héereof in the Epistle Concerning this other vntruth M. Harding saith he knoweth not what he graunteth These are Cyrillus wordes but he gesseth at an other sense and vpon that surmise quoteth a new vntruthe Dothe he claime so muche to his owne vnderstanding that if he say it it must be so though y e words be contrary Before we build of his saying it shalbe néedeful for him to win some better credite Sée the place thou wilt beare witnesse that it is truely alleaged The B. of Saris. The .14 Diuision For the partie excommunicate being a priest might say he wold say Masse and so receiue the Communion euen with the bishop of whome he were excommunicate Harding The .106 vntruthe The Priest excommunicate might not say Masse lawfully Dering No sure whether he were excommunicate or no he might not say it lawfully neither by Gods law nor his holy Euangelies when M. Iuel saith this I will subscribe The B. of Sarisb Now if M. Hardings principle stand for good that the priest saying his priuate Masse may receiue the Communion with all others in other places c. Harding The .107 vntruthe I say not he may receiue with others Dering M. Harding is past shame wold God as I haue said often he were not past grace if these be not his words Therefore that one may Communicate with an other though they be not togither in one place it may be proued by good authoritie then will I subscribe if they be his words then iudge thou of his doing The B. of Saris. Heere marke good Christian reader then they Communicated saith Irenaeus when they met in the Church Harding The .108 vntruthe Irenaeus saith not so reade it againe and marke it better Dering These are Irenaeus words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 These words if as M. Harding requesteth we reade them againe and marke them better then no doubt they are thus in English These things being thus they Communicated together and in the Churche Anicetus gaue to Polycarpus the Eucharist Héere saith M. Iuel by this it appeareth they communicated when they met in y e church That is not so saithe M. Hard. Read it once again marke it better If often reading and better marking may serue the turne then gentle reader I craue also thy labour read it yet once againe and marke it better Yea read it while thou wilt and marke it how thou canst if this fansie of M. Hardings do but once come in thy minde I may boldely make thée this large offer let these all be vntruthes His fansie is so full of foly his imagination so vaine his interpretation so childish that if thou of thy self cāst finde it out I say as I said before let all these vntruthes stande Reade it I beséeche thée once againe and marke it better Is not this a straunge vntruthe that no mā can espie it but M. Harding But sith it is so that héere can be no vntruthe without M. Hardings good instruction let vs aske of him how it may be falsified He telleth vs of two faults the first in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they communicated the seconde in Englishing Eucharistia the sacrament Mary saith he yet I will define nothing that is I will stande to neither of them Is not this a straunge dealing that he wil first finde fault then will not bide by it and yet notwithstanding wil score vp his vntruthe If this vntruthe be vntruthe why will he not abide by it Or if he will not abide by it why doth he say it is vntrue must his priuate Masse his halfe communion his outlandishe prayers his Popes supremacie yea his vntruthes and all be proued by paraduenture But let it be so what is it at the last that héere may chance be false this it is in the first fault about communion peraduenture forsoth they communicated before they met This blinde peraduenture wer it in Cambridge or Oxford no doubt it wold be hissed out of the scholes The second fault found in translating Eucharistia y e sacrament is this peraduenture Eucharistia here doth signifie sacerdotale mynisterium the priestly office Now sure good reader this is a straunge aduenture Eucharistia the priests office Fie on such a chance except a man had a priuiledge to make words sound what him listed No mā I trow wold haue made this aduenture But héere I must desire the reader to loke a little back to take the better view of M. Hardings dealing in the Epistle where M. Harding sporteth him self with his good artillerie he saith he could neuer shote at this mark that Eucharistia might be taken not for the Sacrament but for cōmon bread Now either by meanes of lighter arowes or a better loose he shootes a great way beyōd it saith with a good countenance y ◠Eucharistia is no bread at al but y e priests office Sure this is very vncertain shooting and can neuer stand with a good archer A man may shoote long at the Etymologie of y e word ere he bring it to this significatiō Though he haue determined to say little truely yet he shold haue taken héede how he had spoken so vnwisely That other tragicall exclamation that Eucharistia must be taken simply for bread consecrate bewrayeth this close dealing that it may be taken for the Priestes office And héere againe for a good note of M. Hardings fals dealing we haue to mark that in this place where M. Iuell sayth Eucharistia may be taken for common bread but yet apointed for the Communion M. Harding doeth not quote it for an vntruthe yet in the Epistle he noted it for a great heresie And why doeth he thus As it may be thought bicause he foresawe that to deny the Eucharist at any time to note bread not yet consecrate were a great preiudice to his grosse distinction that it might signifie the Priests office and therefore for the better conueyaunce of this absurditie he wold not quote that an vntruth which he had so greatly impugned before
vntruth Solennia doeth not import a solemne companie Dering Yet it séemeth so Maister Harding to as wel learned as you are But this is your common fashion to belie Maister Iuels words and then to say they be vntrue Yt séemeth saith he to import a solemne coÌ„panie What if it be not so yet it séemeth so But what if it doe import a great companie What if it can not stande with your priuate Masse Sure then is Soters decrée not worth alleaging as your vntruthe is not worth the quoting The reason that you bring out of Tullie were it not in your booke yet by the value I would gesse it yours Solemne say you doeth signifie sometime a custome Ergo when it is attributed to an action it doeth not import a companie This is verie like one of your owne arguments it hangeth so losely For the antecedent is false and the argument doth not follow But why speaketh Maister Harding against his owne knowledge he is assured it is not named in matters of religion but it signifieth a great company of persons and muche sumptuousnesse of the things so ill may his priuate Masse be solennis Mos solennis sacrarum saith Lucretius the solempne and sumptuous manner of the sacrifices And Virgil calleth them arae solennes many and costly altares so pompae solennes burials in solemne order vota solennia vowes made solemnly in the company of many and Tullie Solenne statutum sacrificium a sacrifice done sumptuously and appointed times and in M. Hardings Portuise sacris solennijs iuncta sunt gaudia to solemne seruice there is annexed ioyes This aucthoritie is sufficient against master Harding He wil say nothing I trow against his Portuise If he wil we will then charge him with the Popes owne aucthoritie Innocentius tertius shewing the cause why in their single holydayes they say not the Créede nor Gloria in excelsis as wel as they do on their double feasts wryteth thus vt inter commemorationem solennitatem differentiam ostendatur that there may be a difference betwéene a commemoration and a solemnitie Loe héere is Pope Innocent flat against maister Harding concerning the nature of the word and yet he is content to speake euen as Soter doth and say of the other Masses missarum solennia Thus we sée these vntruthes sometime can not agrée nether with their holy father the Pope neither yet with the Portuise The B. of Saris. Soter requireth to this action only the company of three Harding The .147 vntruthe He requireth not .iij. but .ij. at the least Dering Note good reader this vntruthe is now twise made in the 144. vntruthe and againe here Yet if thou way it well thou shalt sée it was not worth repetition In the other place the sense was very obscure and here the words are very strauÌ„ge To make this solemne Masse saith M. Iuel iii. are required Not so saith M. Harding the priest requireth but two to make answere But what if it happen that these two haue a thirde priest to say the Masse Soter séemeth to meane so when he saith vt sit ipse tertius that the priest may be the thirde I can not tel all their misteries It may be they haue a custome that two may make answere when no man sayth the Masse Or if they haue not then this is not vntrue The B. of Saris. It may be doubted whether dominus vobiscum were parte of the Liturgie in Soters time Harding The .148 vntruthe This cannot be wel and reasonably doubted Dering If well and reasonably doe not helpe out this vntruthe it hathe then neither goodnesse nor shew of probabilitie Now what well and reasonably may doe in this matter it shall well and reasonably appeare if you marke Damasus woords he saith there was nothing red in the Churche on sundayes sauing some Epistle of the Apostle and some chapter of the Gospell If Damasus say true then it may be doubted bothe well and reasonably whether Dominus vobiscum were red or noe This saying of Damasus maister Iuel dothe alledge and vpon little searche it will easily appeare by all Ecclesiasticall recordes that in Soters time and many yeares after there was no other solemnitie in their ministration sauing reading or expounding the scriptures and some prayers which the whole congregation did make together some say that Peter vsed to celebrate with the Lordes prayer only Paule did preache vnto them as appeareth in the Actes Iustine speaking of the Communion in his time â–ª saith Post precationem nos salutamus osculo mutuo deinde affertur precipuo fratri panis caâ—ix aqua dilutus c. After our prayers we salute one an other with a kisse then the bread is brought to the chiefest brother and the cuppe of wine and water Then the mynister giueth thanks vnto God in the name of the Sonne and of the holy ghost and the whole people doe answere Amen And if these words are not yet plaine inough by which we may doubt whether Dominus vobiscum were then in the Liturgie Iustine saith againe Die solis vrbanorum rusticorum coetus fiunt vbi apostolorum prophetarumque litera quoad fieri potest preleguntur c. On sunday we haue our metings bothe of the towne and the countrey where the Apostâ—es and prophets wrytings are red vnto vs so long as time wil serue then our mynister dothe make an exâ—ortation willing vs to folow the vertue and goodnesse whereof we reade Then we rise altogether and make our prayers Lâ—e héere is a full description of the Communion in Iustinus Martyr who liued in Soters time And yet in all this not one word making mention of Dominus vobiscum yet is maister Harding so importune in his vntruthes that he dareth boldly affirme and yet hath no grounde that Dominus vobiscum was then parte of their seruice Let him shewe but one sufficient recorde for proofe of that he wryteth and let him haue his vntruthe I know our decretall Epistles would be of this age and they defile Gods sacraments as becommeth that adulterous generation But those epistles as I haue sufficiently already shewed are far vnworthy those godly fathers whose names they beare The B. of Saris. Further this same Soter requireth that bothe these two and as many others as be present make answere vnto the priest Harding The .149 vntruthe He requireth it not this is vtterly false Dering Note good reader maister Hardings impudencie and take héede of his lying spirite he saith very censoure like this is vtterly false and in his Reioinder raileth much at M. Iuel for falsifying the Doctours and yet most impudently he dothe vtterly belie him Read his booke he doth not bring one letter to proue that he saith Belike he is wel persuaded his friends wil beleue him if he doe but say the worde but to bring some proofe against maister Hardings bare word vpon these words of Soter let him haue two at the least to aunswere
is in vaine but that the oblation is in vaine making a great difference betwene his Masse and oblation But this matter doth not so well thriue as Maister Harding wéeneth his Masse and oblation must néedes be both one else how could his Masse be saide to be a sacrifice propitiatorie for quick and dead sith the sacrifice can onely be ment by the oblation But let vs take Maister Hardings words as they are The oblatioÌ„ saith he is in vaine to the people that will not come Here he speaketh not onely against his companions but against the Pope and against his Masse booke The decrée saith the oblation is good that is offred for Iudah and Ierusalem that is for them that coÌ„fesse the Lord. And the masse booke saith Hanc oblationem offerimus pro ecclesia tua sancta catholica We offer this oblation for the whole catholike church Yet saith Maister Harding this oblation is in vaine If he him selfe will thus speake against Pope and portus he may peraduenture crack his Masse ere he be ware But it is well We take that Maister Harding graunteth except the people receiue the celebration or sacrifice made by y e priest is in vaine so his priuate Masse is quitâ— condemned The B. of Saris. If Maister Harding will stand vnto the authoritie of Chrysostome let him not dissemble but speake plaine vnto the people as Chrysostom spake Let him say to theÌ„ that come to heare his masse if ye receiue not ye are shamelesse ye are impudent you are not worthie to be partakers of the common prayers Depart you from the Church ye haue no more place here than Turks and heathens your eyes be vnworthy to see these things vnworthy be your eares our Masses can not profite you they are not meritorious for you they please not God they prouoke his anger they are all in vaine This is Chrysostomes sense and plaine meaning Harding The .207 vntruthe These are not his words The .208 vntruthe Nor his meaning Dering Héere I must craue of the indifferent Reader to note this manner of quoting vntruthes Of these very words of Chrysostome before he made two vntruthes the .202 and .203 Here of them all he maketh but one Yet if there be but one nowe there was but one afore and so one vntruthe is made thrée Againe before he made no vntruth as touching the meaning now he maketh one Yet if there be one now there was one afore so of two vntruthes which is very vnlike he will nuÌ„ber but one againe in the .204 vntruthe he maketh but one vntruthe bothe of the words and meaning héere seuerally he maketh one of either this diuersitie of gathering must néedes shewe a matter of little waight Now as touching these two vntruthes and the wordes héere saide of maister Iuel he neither saith nor meaneth that they are al in Chrysostome But alleaging certaine as is shewed in the .202 vntruth he héere addeth more For example to shew the Massing priestes how they should speake vnto the people What troweth maister Harding to persuade the people that maister Iuel maketh Chrysostome to speake of their Masses Héere in these words the Masse is plainely named yet y e good father did neuer know what suche spirituall whoredomes did meane And yet héere M. Harding to cary away the readers vnderstanding in his railing spirite he speaketh great blasphemies against Gods electe and calleth him the forerunner of Antichrist whome God hath appointed one to be an ouer runner of the Romish Idolatries But God be praised in all his saints The B. of Saris. Now let vs examine this inuincible argument wherwith euery childe as Maister Harding saith is able to proue the priuate Masse Harding The .209 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering These are his woords of this most euident place of Chrysostome euery childe is able to make an inuincible argument against master Iuel for the priuate Masse these are his very wâ—ords I say as he saith let the booke be iudge and he that is found a lier let him haue the blame The B. of Saris. This is M. Hardings argument The sacrifice in Chrysostomes time was daily offred But many times none came to Communicate Ergo there was priuate Masse Heere the Maior is apparant false the Minor is proued at aduenture Harding The .210 vntruthe The Maior is true The .211 vntruthe The Minor is well proued Dering In the .133 vntruthe maister Iuel proued by S. Augustine â–ª that in some place the people receiued euery day there maister Harding dothe note that for vntrue héere maister Iuel proueth by S. Augustine that in some place they receiued not euerye day Hâ—ere likewise maister Harding noteth this for vntrue And yet howe can bothe these be vntrue More circumspect behauioure in so false dealing hadde bene necessary Now as touching bothe these sayings of maister Iuel that somewhere the people did receiue euery day somewhere only on certaine dayes let S. Augustines woordes be witnesses Thus he wryteth The Sacrament of the body of Christ is receiued somewhere euery day alicubi certis interâ—allis dierum somewhere on certaine dayes only As long as this aucthoritie may stande for good maister Iuels saying hath a good warrant And though it were not good yet maister Hardings two vntruthes must néedes one ouerthrow an other As touching this other vntruthe that none came to receiue with the priest sée whether it be proued at aduenture or no. Thus maister Harding saith if there were but fewe to Communicate in that great and famous Churche of Antioche what may be thought of a thousand lesser churches c. Nowe whether this proofe be at all aduentures and a bare gesse it is soone iudged Concerning Chrysostomes aucthority here read the Replie The B. of Saris. As for the Maior it is plaine by the .6 councell of Constantinople by S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn by S. Basil ad Caesariam patritiam by the Epistle of the councel of Alexandria in defence of Macarius and by the councell of Laodicea and by sundry other aucthorities to that purpose before alâ—eaged that the sacrifice was not daily offred Harding The .212 vntruthe S. Augustine hath the contrary Dering If S. August speake contraries he is sure the more to blame but who séeth not by S. Augustines plaine woordes in this former vntruthe alleaged that where he saith the sacrifice is daily offred it is to be ment of certaine places not of all This vntruthe is directly contrary to the 83.133.14-5.156 vntruthes But what skilleth that where M. Harding may be beleued Héere note that all these other aucthorities are coÌ„trolled and yet notwithstaÌ„ding M. Harding presumeth vpoÌ„ his vntruths Sure the number was appointed too large that coulde not be made vp without suche foule shifts The B. of Sarisb Maister Harding saw that this is but a slender proofe Chrysostome ministred euery day therfore he receiued alone Harding The .213 vntruth Maister Harding
and hys brother yet he would néedes be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So M. Harding wyll say néedes he is modest but his woord is no warrant Concerning M. Iuell whether his greatest grace be in scoffing I maruaile that he now doth aske the question Doth not M. Rastall his owne dearlyng confesse he hath a rare gift in writing Though his aucthoritie be otherwise very light yet against M. Harding it is very weightie And why will not M. Harding confesse as much Is he not as well learned as M. Rastall Yes sure but malitia mutauit intellectum malice hath chaunged his vnderstanding Hardyng ¶ If ye seeke to be reuenged on me for that I haue bene so bold as to aunswere your vaine Chalenge and by this Reioynder to confute part of your colourable Reply either hold your peace or speake so as you be not fouÌ„d a lyer if you can For truely by your euill speaking of me you shal but encrease the heape of my felicitie c. Dering Maister Harding would haue the world to thinke we are offended with his writing And in déede we are so and take it as a scourge of God to kéepe vs in humilitie and a manacing against our sinful liues that as oft as we se their bookes we should repent vs of the idolatries wherein we haue beene drowned But he in his impiety runneth desperatly forward and appealeth vnto Gods iudgement with such securitye as appeareth as Flauinius at Thrasimenus or Varro at Cannae went to méete with Hannibal Well may I vse this similitude sith all his doings are nothing else but gentillitie Maister Harding doth accuse vs of euill speaking before we offeÌ„d him Where he saith he is sure he standeth vpon a sure grouÌ„d let him take héede he be not wise in his own conceit Not euery one that saith Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdome of heauen but he that doth the will of God They are not all true worshippers that go vp to Ierusalem but suche onely as woorship in spirite and veritie The Iewes with as great a confidence sayde they had one Father which was God but Christ aunswered they were of their father the Deuil Saint Paule speaketh of the wicked that gloried so of God but hée sayth by such meanes the true God is dishonored The Scribes and the Pharises bragged muche of Moyses but Christ sayd the same Moyses should be their accuser All Israel dyd euer boast they were the children but yet onely in Isaac shal the séede be called Euen so these braggings of Christ séeing he followeth not his Testament shall be his owne confusion But by like he feared this that here I do aunswere and therfore with a vaine occupacion he thought best to preuent it and make a false clayme him selfe to that sayinge of Christ. And to proue it doth alleadge that weary argument of their Romish church which bicause it is so oft alleadged it shall not be amisse to speake somwhat of it to way a litle the difference of the two Churches The Churche of Christ is not bounde to any mans traditions it is not tyed to any certaine place the somâ— hath made vs frée and therfore we are frée in déede Neither in Ierusalem nor in this hill the true worshippers doo worship but in spirite and veritye But the Church of Rome doeth hang vpon olde rotten postes they obserue monethes and dayes that they maye be made frée they runne into cloisters and monckery for to worship and serue God The Church of Christ is not inclosed in any certain cuntry the Apostels are gone into al the world to preach the Gospell who soeuer doth beleue and is baptised shalbe saued But the church of Rome doth condemne them that goe one foote from hir she pronounceth them accursed that wil not drinke of hir adulteries and without hir she saith ther is no helth The Church of Christ wil not heare a strangers voice she will not beleue an angell from heauen that shall preach any other doctrine then Christ hath deliuered the scripture is the rule of hir whole religioÌ„ The church of Rome doth harken after vnwritten verities she giueth credit vnto dreames and visions she saith the Scriptures maye be drawen into diuers senses and will not allowe them but after hir fansied interpretations The church of Christ is buylt vpon the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets Christ him selfe being the heade corner stone she doth receiue with méekenesse the woorde that is ingraffed in hir and doth confesse that it can saue our soules The church of Rome is buylt vppon mens deuises and for insufficiencye of the word adioyneth pilgrimages and pardons sacrifices for quick and dead Masses and purgatoryes Inuocation of Saints worshipping of Images and a thousand such trumperies and will not confesse that all is written which is necessary to saluation The Church of Christ doth acknowledge that by Christ alone she is saued by Christ alone she is deliuered from hir vaine conuersation and from the bondage of sin not by the woorks of righteousnes which she had done but according to his mercy which hath saued hir But the church of Rome maketh merits of hir own hath inuented worâ—es of supererogation hath great confidence in Bulles Reliques Indulgences and salutations of the Pope The church of Christ is the communion of Saints the society and the felowship of these that walke in righteousnes But the church of Rome is a den of théeues her hye Priestes are sorcerers coniurers necromancers murderers vnchast adulterers Sodomits church robbers and such like infamous creatures as is euident by Platina Beâ—no and all other that haue written their liues The church of Christ doth vse the keies aright as she hath receiued them she pardoneth the penitent bindeth vp the sinnes of the disobedient and as she frely hath receiued so frelye she bestoweth them The church of Rome doth binde and lose at aduentures sendeth pardons to persons that she neuer sawe and bicause she hath not receiued fréely she selleth vnreasonable deare and hath made men paye for their sinnes an hundred thousand ounces of golde To conclude the church of Christ is the members of Christ the bodye of one head of which heade she hath receiued hir saluatioÌ„ bicause he hath purchased hir with his blood The church of Rome is the body of Antichrist the members of an Idolatrous harlot that hath gone a whorehunting after diuers louers Therfore the church of Rome is not the church of Christ. And as this church of Rome is in déede the synagogue of the Deuill so she hath not so much as the marks of Christes congregation The right vse of the sacraments which is the badge of Christs church and the reading of scriptures wherby hir steppes are lightened are as farre out of Peters church in Rome now as in the tyme of paganisme ther were out of the capitol as it shall appeare vpon further discussion First if they haue the
Apostle commeth iudgement Here is no colour of shift least except they wil say after death that is when the generall daie of iudgement shall bée And if this might serue then had they somewhat to saye But S. Iohn hath preuented such wrestinge of scriptures After death as he teacheth is immediatly as soone as we be with God for this he writeth Blessed ar the deade which dye in the Lorde from henceforth saith the spirit they rest from their labour No labour abideth any more for them after death immediatlye they are receiued into ioy and their workes doe follow them And this present ioy of the godlye is likewyse specified where the same Apostle writeth that an hundred fourty and foure thousand did stande with the lambe in y e mount Sion meaning the elect which wer w t Christ in his kingdome An hundreth such other places there are in the scripture which testifie of our estate after death and do quite ouerthrowe the Popes purgatory Nowe for the better contentation of the Reader it were worth the labour to answere to al those places of the scripture in which they make so many blinde gesses at purgatory The places are Math. 5.26 c. 12.32 c. 18 34. Luc. 12.59.16.19 l. Co. 3.15 Phil. 2.10 Apo. 5.15 But read these places who list in the feare of God and true desire of knowledge he can by no imaginations haue one gesse at purgatory and yet for the establishing of such a doctrine it had bene requisite they could haue shewed euen the name for the interpretation of other men be they neuer so olde We may saye with the Apostle Euery man aboundeth in his own vnderstanding but no man knoweth the thinges that are Gods saue God alone and his woorde if we will not be deceiued must be our onelye guider But they haue one place 2. Mach. 12.44 in plaine words that it is good to pray for the dead if that booke be of able autority We rede likewise of one Razias an Elder of Ierusalem which first ran vpon his own sworde and when he missed of his stroke he ranne to the top of the wall and threwe him selfe downe among the multitude and yet hauing life in him went to the top of an highe rocke and pulled out his owne bowels and threwe them among the enimies and for this doing he is commended So by the authoritye of the same booke a man maye kill himselfe which Maister Harding him selfe I trowe will not constantly affirme yet this being scripture it might not be doubted Againe the same author saith If I haue done well and as the story requireth it is the thing that I desired But if I haue spoken slenderly and basely it is that I coulde These Iffes and Andes are not of that spirit which hath written the scriptures Thus doubting of his own ability besemeth not the holy ghost Beside this the gréeke in the same place is so corrupt that scarce any sense coulde be made of it And Ioseph ben Gorion out of whom that story semeth to be gathered in the same place doth quite leaue out this praying for the dead But it maye be that in those dayes some ignoraunt Iewes vpon an vnwyse deuotion did thinke it good to praye for the deade and likewise to praye againe vnto them that they would helpe vs. Which if it were so by such meanes this place might come into the Machab. And that some did thinke thus thoughe they were alwayes otherwyse instructed it appereth by one manifest place which is read in Philo Iudeus where he writeth the death of Debora who made a godly exhortatiō to hir people before she dyed For afterward they should finde no repentaunce There some made aunswere vnto hir Ecce nunc mater moreris ora itaque pro nobis post recessum tuum erit anima tua memor nostri in sempiternum Praye for vs after thy departure and let thy soule be mindefull of vs for euer To whom Debora maketh aunswere Adhuc viuens homo potest orare et pro se pro filijs suis post finē autem non poterit exorare nec memor esse alicuius yet while a man is liuing he may pray for him selfe and for his children but whan he is deade he can neyther intreate nor be mindeful of any And it followeth your similitude then shal be like the starres of heauen which are now manifest in you Hereby we sée what iudgement the common people mighte haue in such matters And yet howe the godly did otherwise instruct them reade this place thou shalt finde it so plaine that no wrangling may shift it of but nedes we must confesse that it teacheth vs that we ought neither to praye vnto saintes to help vs neyther yet agayne can we helpe them when they be gone Wherby it appeareth what manner of archer Maister Harding hath ben that could not shoote at so plaine a marke But he did shoote at his own dreames and so he lighted on Purgatorie Yet there follow a great many of markes at the which M. Hardyng could neuer shoote home The first is that the masse and our Communion is one wyth that marke sayth he I was neuer acquaynted Hys loose without doubt is very ill or he shooteth to low a compasse or else he draweth not close For M. Stapleton that shooteth with the same bow and arrowes hitteth this marke euen at the first The Masse and the Communion saith he duelye ministred is all one and it is folly to thinke any contradiction betwéene the Communion and the Masse Thus it appeareth M. Harding is a verye wrangler that wyll not shoote at that marke which his owne fellowes finde An other marke that M. Harding could neuer shoote at is this that Eucharistia doth signifie not the Sacrament but common bread I maruail he could neuer shoote at this marke For sith he began first that babling aunswere to M. Iuels learned Challenge he hath alwaye bene hobbing among those marks wher this is one though he neuer shot at the selfe same yet hath he seldome shot but at such like For it is a marke of slaundering and a marke of lying at whych marke as well in this Reioynder as other where M. Harding most commonly doth shoote very nere I neuer said saith he that Eucharistia was common breade but the sacrament This marke I could neuer sée In déede no maruail for who can well sée the thing that is not But you father this saying vpon Maister Iuell which reporte is all togither vntrue and slaunderous and in shootinge at this marke you drawe maruailous cleane and haue good deliuery be it prickes or rouers you haue measured the ground so oft that you knowe what to shoote But I pray you M. Harding where sayth M. Iuell thus What be his woordes Wher are they to be foūd Thinke you notwithstanding your oft vntrue demeanour that you can discredite your aduersary vpon your bare word The
their hearts and giue them vnderstanding that they may once know and confesse that his Religion may not thus be framed to mannes fansie so in the latter day when they shall be accomptable for their doings they may be vnblameable in the sight of the highest The B. of Saris. He saith Communion is so called of that we Communicate togither Harding The .79 vntruthe He saith not together Dering It is a very strange propertie not to be ashamed to speake manifestly against the knowne signification of any worde it is muche more straunge to speake against it placed in suche a sentence where of force the signification must be graunted but it is moste straunge of all and in manner a singulare impudencie to note it for any vntruthe in one that will not so shamelesly speake without reason as an other dothe Such an vntruthe as this is it which now we haue in hand 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is well knowne to signifie to Communicate together in the same time and place And in this sentence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Héere to say it can signifie any other thing it is very ignorant boldenesse But to note it for an vntruthe as maister Harding dothe it is bothe to be past shame and past grace The worde is well knowne that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do signifie a cōmunitie of any thing together and therefore they be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which may haue felowship with the Congregation and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be in felowship with any man And bicause that Mercurie is sayd to be the messenger of the Pagane goddes to tell their errandes from them to any man therefore he is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hauing a proper name of his proper office in that by him the Ethnikes did thinke they were made partakers of their gods counsell by which the propertie of this worde appeareth And consider good Reader what manner of Communion it is that M. Harding would make when the Priest saith Masse in the Church and calleth no body vnto him yet he sayth that al the Priestes in the world which say Masse at the same time doe Communicate with him and be made one body of Christe togither Héere I aske of M. Harding how he agréeth with S. Paule y t saith we are one bread one body bicause we all are partakers of one bread Marke reader because we eate of one bread we become one body saith S. Paule Bicause we say Masse at one time we become one body saith M. Harding though we eate not at all of the same breade Sure these two Doctoures doe not agrée S. Paule saith moreouer the bread which we break is it not the Cōmunion of the body of Christ M. Harding saith though we breake not the same bread but be eche one of vs by our selues at our altares yet it is the Communion of the body of Christ. Thus we sée S. Paule and M. Harding teache not bothe one Doctrine But it is no meruaile they are not guided bothe with one spirit S. Paule speaketh truthe and M. Harding falshead S. Paule the worde of God and master Harding his owne fansies as for this Communion of M. Hardings it was neuer knowne in the Church of God I remember there is a great bragger in Martial maketh euen suche an other he had euer in his mouth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 All things are common among frendes but saying thus so often when he would neuer bestow any thing among his neighbors the Poet saith this is a very straunge Communion Das nihil dicis Candide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So it goeth with M. Harding he euer saith of his Masse it is common it is common but he saith it only he calleth no man vnto him Sure say what he will this is but craking Candidus his Communion God be praised that we are deliuered from it And thus it appeareth it is no vntruthe to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to Communicate together ▪ as well bicause the worde it selfe is plaine as for that the scripture teacheth that the Communion must be so administred The B. of Saris. Basil reporteth an Ecclesiasticall Decree or Canon that at the receiuing of the holy Communion which he called mysticum Pascha there ought to be .xij. persones at the least and neuer vnder Harding The .80 vntruthe It is no Ecclesiasticall decree Dering M. Harding in this place is farre gone He is wont to controll very curiously false quotation in this place onlesse my boke deceiue me he is much ouerséene For I think it is in asceticis sermone primo Whether it bewell quoted or no it is truely reported S. Basils words are these Quemadmodum spiritualis lex non vult eos esse infra numerum duodenarium qui mysticum pascha edere debeant c. Euen as the spirituall or Ecclesiasticall decrée will not haue vnder twelue that shuld eate the mysticall passeouer c. Loe. S. Basil sayth it is an Ecclesiasticall Decrée Yet M. Harding saith it is no Decrée Beleue him not henceforth before thou trie him And the Doctors words wer as sone changed as he is redy to deny or affirme at aduentures thou couldest be sure of nothing but it is well the truthe doth not hang vpon his report Let him say while he will it is no decrée S. Basils wordes are plaine it is spiritualis lex If M. Harding had not made wrangling his hope in these vntruthes this had not bene numbred He may as well blame the Euangelistes for alleaging the Prophets And no doubt if M. Iuell should follow the faithfull sense as the Euangelists doe and let passe words Maister Harding would finde fiue lies in one line Such truthe he vseth in these vntruthes The B. of Saris◠It appeareth by S. Augustine and certaine olde Canons that in the Primatiue church the Priest and people sometime did Communicate after supper Harding The .81 vntruthe The .11 diuision It appeareth not Dering This vntruthe is sone answered For M. Harding graunteth that it appeareth by s. Augustine some receiued on Maūdie thursday after supper but saith he that is not sometime For saith he he that saith somtime meaneth oftner than once a yeare Now if it were possible that once a yeare might be sometime then were it necessary that M. Harding did wrangle But bicause once a yeare is no time let vs sée if it may be proued that it was done oftner First whether it be or no S. Augustine is at a point and saith faciat quisque quod in ea Ecclesia in quam venerit inuenit Let euery one doe after the custome of that Church in which he cōmeth it appertaineth neither vnto faith nor vnto good maners therefore whether a man receiue the Cōmunion fasting or no so he receiue in the Lord it skilleth not muche Now what they haue done in the primatiue Church let vs as I haue said enquire It appereth in
men héereby saith he it appeareth it was giuen to deade men not that it was thrust in their mouthes But I pray M. Harding can a thing be giuen to a dead man to eate and not thrust into his mouthe This vaine contention about words proueth M. Harding to be a very wrangler This appeareth to be true by the Canon M. Iuel recites and further we reade that it was commaunded if the persone were dying infundatur ori eius Eucharistia that the Sacrament should be poured into his mouthe Héere by the way note that in that time the people receiued the cuppe As touching the .85 vntruth M. Hardings Reioinder doth confute it selfe in the next vntruthe before he said the Councel did forbid it now he sayth it did not so whether it did or no M. Harding hath made a lie and except the distruction of thrusting it in their mouthes and putting it in there is no coloure to shadow the lie The B. of Saris. The members of these argumentes hang together like a sicke mannes dreame Harding The .86 vntruthe I make no arguments in this place Dering No good arguments in déede I graunt but yet suche as they are you encombre vs with them The B. of Sarisb Heere would M. Harding faine finde a Masse c. Harding The .87 vntruthe Heere I seke not for the Masse Dering But to séeke after your Masse is your only purpose Therfore here you speake nothing to the purpose and consequently as it was said afore your writings hang together like a sicke mannes dreame The B. of Saris. Here these words euery other christian man or woman that he hath in by the way are an ouerplus and quite from the purpose Harding The .88 vntruthe The .12 Diuision These vvordes are quite from the purpose Dering The question is whether there were priuate Masse within .600 yeare after Christ that is whether the Priests receiued alone in the congregation Maister Harding answereth sicke men and women receiued at home The controuersie lieth whether this be from the purpose The B. of Saris. For the question is moued not of any other man or woman but of the Masse and only of the Priest that saith the Masse Dering The .89 vntruthe Before there was an vntruth quoted not numbred here is one numbred and not quoted When M. Harding telleth what this vntruthe is we will answere it in the meane season we may marke the value of these vntruthes Some not worth numbring some not worthe naming but all is good inough for this Reioinder The B. of Saris. S. Ierome in his exposition is as homely calling it vilem intelligentiam traditionum Harding The .90 vntruth S. Ierome calleth not Moses lavv so Dering Héere M. Harding maketh two gesses One at S. Ieroms meaning an other at maister Iuels if either faile this vntruthe that is risen by chaunce must sal of necessitie But M. Harding héere as his whole religion is maketh very muche of outwarde shewes For except a little carnal pleasure of the outward sense there is nothing in their sinagogue but mourning and lamentation of the spirit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in no wise he will haue beggerly Ceremonies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe he is poore or nedy not beggerly What great ignorance in singular impudencie This exacte defining of Gréeke words may bréede some where some opinion of learning But alas héere is nothing but in déede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beggerly wrangling without other learning or good religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith maister Harding is not beggerly but poore Yet Aristophanes saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not pore but beggerly Nowe whether were better Grecian master Harding or Aristophanes I thinke it may be sone iudged Aristophanes wordes are these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is a begger and hath nothing he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that liues by his labor Thē by this it séemeth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is beggerly And Maister Harding that sacred interpretation that trident couent doth so muche enforce doeth it not call them egena elementa And I pray you M. Harding whether is egena poore or beggerly Surely Ouid saith de rem amor lib. 2. of Hecate and Irus why they are not beloued Nempe quod alter egēs altera pauper erat bicause Hecate was but poore Irus was a very begger but thus it is Maister Harding careth neither for Aristophanes nor yet for Ouid neither yet for Gréeke nor yet for Latine He is so ielous ouer his vntruthes that some time he speaketh he knoweth not what Againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saithe maister Harding is rather Elements than Ceremonies In déede I graunt the word signifieth the foure elements but I trow he wil not haue S. Paule speake thus now you know God why turne you againe to the fire aire water and earth that were a beggerly sense made of the holy Ghosts wordes Then why doeth he not confesse that S. Paule meaneth the Ceremonies of the law and thus much as concerning master Hardings Gréeke As touching his religion it is very choler if in respect of Christ he may not suffer the ceremonies of the law to be called beggerly But it is no maruell though this interpretation offend them for what is it that Paule calleth beggerly Ceremonies It foloweth You obserue dayes and monthes times and yeares Hinc illae lachrimae for this cause M. Harding is so much offended such obseruations are great principles in Papistrie and to call them beggerly is to make all that Religion nothing worthe But we sée suche a one is Paule he was chosen to preache among the gentiles and God haue the glory he hath conuerted vs from al popish Idolatry For this aucthoritie of Ierom which M. Harding blameth in which he séeketh for his vntruthe read the place thou shalt finde the words or else let this be vntrue The B. of Saris. Of mingling water with wine superstition only except no man maketh any great accompt Harding The .91 vntruth The old fathers make great accompt of it Dering If M. Harding will presse vpon these wordes no man maketh any great accompt then he might haue said I and my felowes make great accompt of it therfore some body dothe it and by this meanes he might haue had many witnesses of his saying and so his vntruthe had bene the surer If he will not so force the words why doth he apply them vnto the olde fathers By this it appeareth he writeth not alwayes with the best aduisement But now he doth M. Iuel great wrong and racketh his words to that he neuer ment He speaketh of him self and other that at this day professe Gods religion saith that were it not for feare of superstition we would not greatly stick to mingle water with the wine and for proofe that M. Iuel ment thus let his boke be iudge He alleageth Cyprian and Iustine and farther saith that
vntruthe Then thus hang these vntruthes If this last be true that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers the thirde is true that it intendeth not Transubstantiation And the second is true that it hath no suche intent as the Church of Rome hath and the first is true that these churches are not resolued in this intent Now consider I beséeche thée good Reader what manner of vntruthes these are that notwithstanding their great number are yet so smal in value that if but one be proued true all .iiij. must be graūted Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs and rouers yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe and his whole commendation is no more worthe than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies For proofe of this last vntruthe on which the other hang we haue the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel where it is shewed that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced this is my body they make this prayer fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest that these wordes this is my body being pronounced before did not worke Transubstantiation But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered we wil say somwhat of them in order euen as M. Harding noteth them and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other First saith M. Harding the Church is resolued on the Priests entent But that is very false For the Gréeke Church and the Church of Rome haue not one intēt The Greke Church as is said doth consecrate with prayers The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing than of Consecration The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to haue more regarde of Consecration than of the worthy receiuing I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite This is inough to proue our purpose Secondarily saithe M. Harding the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation What he entended in this vntruthe I know not For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent Thirdly saith M. Harding the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances First y t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation Againe that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation And thirdly y t they two intende one thing when M. Harding with all his wrangling can make these vntruthes agrée sure we wil subscribe Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence whether it may appeare by it that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation Thus it stoode When the Latines in that assembly required that they might entreate of transubstantiation The Grekes made answere sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus without the consent of all the East Church we can meddle with no other question c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple he must thinke thus muche If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike as they will make vs beleue how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell And againe if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike and were resolued in it what meant they that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion sure this was their meaning they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise and therefore they would ▪ not yelde vnto it And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes The B. of Saris. The .13 Diuision But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse Harding The .101 vntruthe Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse Dering But he should proue priuate Masse or else what maketh he héere For of that the question is moued And this is a very hard case that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose The B. of Saris. Neither may we thinke that Christes body must grossely and bodily be receiued into our bodies Harding The .102 vntruthe We must beleue it Dering As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion and is fallen againe to Poperie so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie This is one of the chiefest articles for which we haue forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche As ofte as we repeate this we conclude the thing which lieth in controuersie betwene vs. This is our professed opinion and vpon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie if it be proued against vs Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe Then what meaneth maister Harding Or what maner of vntruthe is this Or who can accompte it for true and plaine dealing when vpon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe He shal doe well to reproue it before he make anymoe vntruthes of this Reade the .104 vntruthe The B. of Saris. S. Cyprian saith it is meate not for the belly but for the minde Harding The .103 vntruthe S. Cyprian saith not so Dering If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian then in a little chaunge of words we should haue had their meaning faithfully deliuered vnto vs and bastard bokes such as they knew not had neuer bene ascribed vnto them But thanks be to God who hath now lightned vs least suche vngodly writings vnder godly names should deceiue vs as touching this vntruthe I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini But whether the author say the same thing in sense let him selfe witnesse M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words but folowing the sense saith thus it is meat not for the belly but for the minde The wordes in Cyprian are these Sicut panis communis quem quotidie edimus vita est corporis ita panis iste supersubstantialis vita est animae sanitas mentis As the common bread which we eate daily is the life of the body so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule and the health of the minde and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel Or what is worthy blame in this allegation Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon with his replie and with them that as he saith
More true dealing and lesse vaine speaking would better beséeme a Doctor of Diuinitie The B. of Saris. Anicetus as Irenaeus saith receiued the sacrament with Policarpus in the Church and not as M. Harding seemeth to say in his Inne or hosterie Harding The .109 vntruthe Irenaeus saith not that Polycarpus and Anicetus communicated in the Church Dering 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Orestes forgetfulnesse of infortunate things is to be reuerenced But M. Harding for all his wonted hobbing hath héere farre ouershot him selfe to note two vntruthes together that are bothe one if there be any distinction that may salue this matter it were good we were informed I think simple wittes without long instruction will not finde it Harding The .110 vntruthe I seeme not to say it Dering M. Harding graunteth that he may say they Communicated togither before they met but not that they receiued the Sacrament and héerein saith he M. Iuel deceiueth his reader This distinction as it is somewhat straunge so no doubt it hath some hid vnderstanding one had néede of Apollo that should well interprete it For my parte except M. Harding expoūd it I know not what he meaneth For M. Iuel sayeth it séemeth to me very probable For if M. Harding do denye that they receiued in the Churche or in Anicetus house or in the streat then if they did receiue it is most like he saythe they receiued in their Inne if they receiued not what is maister Harding the nearer to his Priuate Masse The B. of Saris. The .16 Diuision The Priest prayeth and giueth thankes in the vulgare tongue Harding The .111 vntruthe He prayeth not in the vulgare tongue of the Countrey Dering The Canon law doeth giue licence to answere one cauill with an other If either that law wer worth folowing or we would vse that libertie is giuen vs we would appoint some play maker to answer this Reioinder for such men with their great leasure and selfpleasing wit would finde M. Harding wrangling worke inough Iustine in describing the order of their seruice among other things he telleth how the people giue thanks and say Amen to the ministers prayer so them selues must make their prayers in their vulgare tongue This saith M. Harding is not true if he mean by y e vulgar tongue the common speache of the countrey But if he meane the one of the thrée learned tongues Latine Greeke or Hebrue then M. Harding graunteth they had seruice in the vulgar tongue Héere I craue of the reader but indifferent iudgemēt to think of this vntruthe as occasion is ministred For proofe that it is vntrue héere is nothing brought but this distinction that the vulgare tongue signifieth either that which euery Countrey speaketh or else the Greke Latine or Hebrue tōgue And what a miserable distinction is this who euer hard that the vulgar tongue did signifie any other than the mother tongue of euery countrey Sure this boke is a boke of distinctions it is no reioinder Let him shew in any booke in the world wher vulgare hath this signification that he dreameth of and let him haue all his vntruthes The B. of Saris. He said before that euery priuate Masse was common Harding The .112 vntruthe I say no where that euery priuate Masse is common but that euery Masse is common Dering This is one of those vntruthes which M. Hard. saithe is very manifest can by no meanes be colored But good reader be not dismaide it is soone iustified how so euer M. Harding misliketh of it Mark but only this graunt which he maketh and to quite that reason which in the .70 vntruthe he would haue considered I will make an other héere for him to consider y e proposition shalbe his own the assumpsion shalbe cōfessed of al men The cōclusion shal folow in good moode figure M. Harding saith euery Masse is common But euery priuate Masse is a Masse Ergo he sayth euery Priuate Masse is common I doe thinke M. Harding did not orderly consider of this vntruth when he made it Sure I am this argument is good and by no distinction cā be answered Therfore this vntruth sauing only the necessity of his number might wel haue bene spared Read more of this vntruthe in the third vntruthe The B. of Saris. I alleaged all these in my sermon Harding The .113 vntruthe He alleaged not all Dering In very many places to make vp these vntruthes M. Harding saith of sundry aucthorities he alleaged them not for his Masse Now he wil néedes take in all for his purpose when I shall better vnderstād which places be brought for his Masse and which in vaine then I will examine the sermon In the meane season vnderstande thus muche M. Iuel saith I alleaged al these witnesses for priuate Masse That is an impudent vntruthe saith M. Harding he alleageth not all that I alleage for sole receiuing M. Hardings priuiledge serueth both wayes either to make one word to signify diuers things or diuers words to signifie but one thing We haue heard before of his distinctions nowe he cometh in with his coniunctions priuate Masse and sole receiuing by this vntruthe are bothe one But as M. Hardings distinctions are in déede distinctions that is as I interpreate it lies so these coniunctions are his owne coniunctions that is a coupling of lies together The B. of Saris. This manner of Priuate receiuing at home was not lawfull for the lay men For it was abolished by godly Bishoppes in generall Councell Harding The .114 vntruth The .17 Diuision It was not abolished The .115 vntruthe That councell was not generall but prouinciall Dering These vntruthes come more fast than truely forwarde It was not saith M. Harding abolished Lay men might receiue at home The councel of Caesar Augusta which M. Iuel saith thus He that receiueth the Sacrament and doth not eat it in the Churche let him be accursed for euer The like Canon is also decréed in the first councel of Toledo if any man hauing receiued the Sacrament doe not presently eate it velut sacrilegus propellatur let him be driuen away as a most wicked persone Of this M. Iuel saith the lay man might not receiue it at home And shal we think bicause M. Harding saith nay that notwithstanding these cursings yet the lay man might cary it home to receiue it Master Hardings wrangling héere about sicke men is not worth the answere M. Iuel speaketh of those that may goe to Church It was an idle matter héere to talke of sick folkes If M. Harding for these vntruthes be faine to wrest plaine words into a violent sense then the vntruthes are his owne For this second vntruthe me thinketh M. Harding is a very partiall man In the .108 vntruthe he will haue Eucharistia so large in signification as no man I trow but him selfe could imagine In this he so presseth the word generall that he aloweth not that which common sense teacheth He
God was offended with the same Harding The .119 vntruthe God was not offended with keping the sacrament but with the presumption of the woman which opened the cheast with vnworthy handes Dering M. Iuel sheweth out of Nicephorus that by like examples it may appeare God was offended with that reseruing of the Sacrament M. Harding without reason without aucthoritie without example of Gods word dothe boldely pronounce vpon Gods meaning and saith the example was shewed bicause she opened hir cheast with vnworthy hands Suche pronouncing of Gods doing should be grounded in Gods scriptures or else suche noting of vntruthes are rash and wicked I graunt it is in S. Cyprian cum manibus indignis tentasset aperire when she assayed to open it with vnworthy handes But whether for hir vnworthinesse God sheweth y e miracle that M. Harding addeth of his owne But what if Cyprian had said this we must not therfore haue beleued it He was a good member of the Churche of God but yet he was a man sometime deceiued He taught that Christ made satisfaction for original sinne only yet we know that was a wicked opinion He wryteth that it was in his time .6000 yeares sith the Deuill did assault man which is a grose error And in some places he thought not reuerently of the Maiestie of the holy Ghost God forbid we should yelde to any thing what so euer a good man doeth write But it is well in this place Cyprian saith no suche thing as M. Harding wold haue him and therfore his rashe vntruthe is not yet proued But to proue the contrary and that M. Iuel saith true we haue the aucthoritie of many Our sauior Christ bad doe that which he did in his remembraunce But he said vnto his disciples take and eate he said not lay vp in your chests And so Cyprian him selfe if it be Cyprian saith likewise recipitur non includitur the Sacrament is receiued it is not shut vp So likewise sayth Origen panis quem dominus dedit discipulis suis iussit accipi manducari non differri aut seruari in crastinum The bread which the Lord God gaue to his Disciples he bad them take it and eate it He bad them not defer it and kepe it till to morow Thus we sée M. Iuels saying may be sufficiently proued and maister Hardings bolde vntruthe is without any reason The B. of Sarisb The thing which our bodily mouthe receiueth is very breade Both the scriptures and also the olde Catholike fathers put it out of doubt Harding The .120 vntruthe It is the very body of Christ. The .121 vntruthe The holy fathers say not that the substāce of bread remaineth Dering This first vntruthe is all one with the .74 the .102 the 104. But suche must be had or how shal vntruthes rise Yet reason wold as I haue said that he shold proue his transubstanciation before he quote so fast these vntruthes Concerning this other vntruthe though it be one with this former and is now .v. times repeated that no wise man would thinke well of maister Hardings doing yet bicause he is so well pleased with it through his importunitie I must néedes say somewhat bothe for trial of his truthe and satisfying the christian reader First our sauiour Christ after consecration calleth it the fruit of the vine and a testament S. Paule v. times breade and the table of the Lord S. Luke calleth the whole Communion the breaking of bread Theodoretus an auncient father saithe Qui se ipsum appellauit vitem illa Symbola signa quae videntur appellatione corporis sanguinis honorauit naturam non mutans sed naturae adijcit gratiam He that called himselfe a vine did vouchsafe to honor those tokens and signes which are séene with the name of his owne body not chaunging their natures but ioyning grace vnto it And againe he saythe signa mystica post sanctificationem non recedunt a natura sua sed manent in priori substātia The mysticall signes after sanctification doe not goe from their owne nature but kepe the same substance that they had before that denyeth transubstantiation Gelasius saithe non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini the substaunce or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not Vigilius saithe of Christes humanitie quando in terra fuit non erat vtique in caelo nunc quia in caelo est non est vtique in terra when he was on earthe he was not in heauen now he is in heauen he is not therefore in earthe and in his first boke against Eutiches he likewise saith abstulit de hoc mundo naturam quam susceperat a nobis he hath taken from the worlde that nature which he receiued of vs. Chrysostome saithe natura panis in sacramento remanet The nature of breade abideth in the Sacrament Augustine saythe quod videtis panis est that which you sée is breade Origen saith Non materia panis sed super illum dictus sermo est qui prodest Not the matter of bread but the worde which is spoken ouer it dothe helpe Cyril sayth Christus credentibus discipulis fragmenta panis dedit Christ gaue vnto his beleuing disciples the breakings of bread Irenaeus saith Eucharistia ex duabus naturis constat terrena caelesti the Eucharist consisteth of two natures the one earthly which is breade the other heauenly which is by faith the féeding of our soules with the body of Christ. Reade maister Iuels bookes thou shalt sée suche other aucthorities in great number Thus thou séest Christian reader that the Doctors beare witnesse there is the nature of bread in the sacrament when M. Harding is able to answer these or bring any for himself then let the vntruthe stand The B. of Saris. The .18 Diuision This sole receiuing was an abuse and therfore abolished Harding The .122 vntruthe Sole receiuing in the time of persecution was no abuse Dering Héere M. Harding doeth fréely graunt that sole receiuing is an abuse whē the people may freely resort vnto the church Where is then the priuate Masse of our time This vntruth though it be worthe no answere yet for want of better it was once noted afore The B. of Saris. In M. Hardings Masse the whole people eateth by the mouthe of the priest Harding The .123 vntruthe They eate not by the mouthe of the priest as M. Iuel meaneth Dering M. Harding is driuen to narowe straightes that maketh suche raw vntruths with so many vnripe distinctions In the former vntruthe he putteth in in the time of persecution In this vntruthe as M. Iuel meaneth His helping hande must come to or there is no vntruth to be found This is M. Hard. plaine doctrine the people doe receiue by the mouthe of the priest If he can make two senses of these words his doubtful speaking is full of deceitfull meaning But this is too shamelesse wrangling No man in the world
Dering This sentence of M. Iuel no doubt pleaseth M. Harding well For cōsidering y e nūber of vntruths y t he must find he séeth some way must be foūd to bring his purpose to effect vpon this occasiō here he hath noted .iij. vntruths together But it is welū Nber may be no preiudice to y e truth let vs examine the sayings First saith Maister Iuel the councels words are these All secular folke are bound to receiue the Communion at the least thrise a yeare These are not the words saith Maister Harding and it is true These are not the words in déede But way yet well the whole matter thou shalt sée Maister Harding a verie wrangler Maister Iuel a litle before doeth recite the latine euen as it is red in Gracian and doeth english it word for word hauing occasion againe here to repeate the decrée he alleageth the true meaning and maketh onely this change in stead of Christmasse Easter and whitsontide he saith thrise in the yeare and in doing so what blame deserueth he Looke in this same diuision Maister Iuel alleageth the words thus Qui in natali domini Pascate et Pentecoste non communicant catholici non credantur nec inter catholicos habeantur These verie words are found in Gracian they that receiue not the Communion at Christmasse Easter and Whitsontide let them not be taken nor reconed for catholike people Here is the place truely alleaged and worde for worde interpreted then how can he be blamed for falsifying the councels wordes In this place which followeth within one leafe he alleageth the sense of this decrée thus All secular christian folke be bound to receiue the Communion at the least thrise in the yeare There he nameth y e times Christmasse Easter Whitsontide here he saith thrise in the yeare and is this any vntrue dealing This it is that I sayd marke well Maister Harding and thou shalt finde him a verie wrangler For this other vntruth about a relaxation and priuiledge except Maister Harding thinke he haue a priuiledge to wrangle what doeth it here It is a relaxation to those that receiued either euerie day or euerie sunday it was a restrainte of those that would receiue but once a yeare Now this third vntruth whether the ecclesiasticall persons were bounde to receiue when soeuer there was any ministration or no in that maister Harding may well disclose his owne vntruthe He can not blame maister Iuel I require of the Christian reader to mark diligently what is spoken and then iudge as God shall moue thée Ecclesiasticall persones were bound daily to receiue saith M. Iuel They were not saith M. Harding and for proofe of that he saith only thus muche that maister Iuel hath not proued the contrary Now whether he hath or not let his Replye be iudge He alleageth in the .29 Diuision a Canon of the Apostles which is this if any Bishop or priest or Deacon or any other of the clerks after the Oblation is made doe not Communicate either let him shew cause thereof that if it be found reasonable he may be excused or let him be excommunicate I trow this be a law a straight law that is inforced vnder the paine of excommunication They were bounde so sure that they might not be losed but vpon iust occasion and necessitie hath no law Yet saith master Harding it is not proued Now thou séest he will not say alwayes true And to proue that this proofe was good it is decréed by the councell holden at Eliberis in Spaine in sundry Canons that vpon diuers faultes the priests deacons and clerks should not in the end of seruice receiue the Communion wherby it appeareth that it was their duety to receiue at euery ministration And this may well appear if we be not obstinate by the councel of Carthage saying Diaconus tempore oblationis tantum vel lectionis alba induatur let the Deacon wear on his albe only in the time that the scripture is a reading or else in the time of the Communion By this it may appeare that in their seruice the cleargie had their Communion so in the .73 canon of the same councell it is said qui communicauerit .l. orauerit where by that ioyning it may appeare that in their common prayers they had also a Communion and it was then especially prouided that no spirituall man shold be present and not Communicate And surely who so shall well consider the diligence of the mynisters in the primatiue Churche shall not nor can not doubt except priuate Masse haue blinded him but that themselues receiceiued at euery assembly and exhorted other to doe the like Then this is no vntruthe The B. of Saris. Those decrees were not made for the greatest parte of the people which in their dayes vsed to communicate in all their assemblies c. as appeareth by the Ecclesiasticall records of that time Harding The .163 vntruth The greatest part vsed not to Communicate in all their assemblies at that time The .164 vntruthe The Ecclesiasticall recordes of that time shew the contrary Dering These vntruthes stande vpon maister Hardings computation of times And if you will not alow his owne reckening neither are all the other vntruthes of any value nor this worthe the numbring At this time saith maister Harding that is when the councell of Agatha was holden the greatest parte did not Communicate in all their assemblies and this he proueth by the testimonies of Ambrose Augustine and Chrysostome To those fathers I answer that they spake only vnto some that were very negligent and would but seldome receiue Maister Hardings surmise that therof gesseth at a priuate Masse is very slender What if one hundred or two or what if the greater parte came seldome to the congregation and therfore these good pastors did so often rebuke them Yet most of them that came did Communicate and maister Harding shall neuer shew the contrary These selfe same Doctors are very plaine that vsually many of them did receiue and if it were so where is the priuate Masse Chrysostome speaketh plainly contremiscite contremiscite ad mensam hanc de qua communicamus simul omnes tremble tremble at this table at which we doe all Communicate togither And that we may know how often this was done he wryteth in an other place prece◠illic perpetuae propter te synaxis propter te oblatio per singulos dies dominicos there are meaning of the Church continual prayers for thée assemblies for thée and the Communion euery sunday And if maister Harding wil except again that Oblatio is not the Communion let him remember héere is also Synaxis by which worde is also ment the Communion so whether worde he will haue to signifie this Sacrament he must confesse that it was vsed at the least euery sunday and that of the people And in an other place Chrysostome saith Omnis qui astat ministeriorū participio non fruitur
Yet bicause they had so many members he thought he might conuey one vntruth verie well amongst them For the truth of this allegation reade S. Chrysostome hom 3. ad Ephe. and thou shalt beleue thine owne sences I will alleage for thée certaine words Reade y e place thou shalt finde moe Thus be saith of those that are by and will not receiue 1. Tu vero impudenter astas thou standest by verie impudently 2. quisquis mysteriorum particeps non est impudens est et improbus si adstat he that is present and will not communicate he is impudent and wicked 3. Indigni sunt videntium oculi indignae aures thine eies are not worthy to see it thine eares are not worthie to heare it 4. Nihil hic tibi qùā cathecumeno plus licet Thou hast no more to do here thē cathecumeni they that are vnchristened and not yet brought to the perfect faith of Christ here is this second vntruth also proued Marke now these wordes and sée whether Maister Iuel report any thing that Chrysostom saith not Thē Maister Harding with shame enough hath noted these vntruths and for his these words except he meane his owne wordes here can be none found that are not in the author Ad. Eph. hom 3. and make but little for his Masse The B. of Saris. Chrysostome saith in vaine doe we come to offer the daylie sacrifice in vaine doe we stand at the alter meaning thereby as may appeare that if he saide priuate Masse for lacke of companie it was in vaine Harding The .140 vntruth These are not Chrysostomes vvordes nor this his meaning Dering Here M. Hard. séemeth to be somewhat more liberall in numbring his vntruths he might well haue made two vntruthes of this one these are not Chrysostomes wordes an other this is not his mening Sure he is not wont to let go such aduantage but peraduēture he saw here so little hope that he would be content with one vntruthe quietlie Yet bicause we defende the truth we may not alow him that First for Chrysostomes wordes thus they are Frustra habetur quotidiana oblatio frustra stamus ad altare In vaine doe we offer the daylie sacrifice in vaine doe we stande at the altar Here is this vntruth verified concerning the words say Maister Harding what he say will If these be not the wordes then accompt me for a lier If they be the wordes then iudge of the vntruth as touching y e meaning of these wordes were it not for Maister Hardings faultfinding it shold sure haue escaped without blame he saith y e meaning is this it is in vaine as touching the people not as touching the Priest this meaning is vntrue for Chrysostome saith Frustra stamus we that be the ministers stande there in vaine But for my parte I would this distinction were good then we should know throughly what marchandise these Masses were Saith M. Haridng they are in vaine for the people except they come and receiue Good Lorde how do they then mock the people that teach them to come dayly and gase vpon their Masses blessed be truth that breaketh out All priuate Masse is ill and all Masse gasers doe wickedlie the frute of Gods sacraments are not applied to those that will not come and be partakers of them If Maister Harding haue lost so much of his cause by noting one vntruth in this place what would he haue done if he had noted a couple The B. of Saris. Here Maister Hardyng seing that his Masse euen by his owne testimonie is shreudly crackt assayeth to salue it as well as he may Harding The .205 vntruth I see not that the Masse is crackt Dering In this vntruth we haue two things to note Maister Hardings sight and the cracking of his Masse As touching his sight I can say little But I doe easely beleue it is not verie good There are a great many authorities in this first article which he can not sée to aunswere one whit sometime two or thrée leaues together in which he can not sée to cōfute one word His owne writings are so ful of darknesse and cloudes of errours that he can not sée to come nigh the truth and yet in this great shadowe of his eies he proueth effectually the common prouerbe who is so bold as blinde bayard For the cracking of his Masse he can say but little onely in defence of that mishapen strumpet he vseth vncomly language against the Bishop of Sarisburie But how can a wicked cause be better defended than with euill speaking For his Lady Missa she is as she is Thanks be to God for the victorie she is well crackt of late she hath glorified hir selfe and liued in pleasure she hath ben full of triūphes signes of victorie she hath dwelt carelesse in hir fensed cities she hath said in hir heart I am none else I am no widow I shall sée no morning Now whether this glorie be yet crackt or no and these proude pecocks feathers falne downe hir owne heauie lookes doe sufficiently witnesse Hir widowhed commeth fast vpon hir and manie of hir louers are run away hir owne barrennesse increaseth daily and hir children wax few in number the multitude of hir diuinations haue brought euill vpon hir hir fornications and idolatries haue seperated betwene God and hir And can Maister Harding yet think that his Masse is still vncracked hir dominions were verie large wide and hir kingdomes plentifull hir buildings were costly verie sumptuous and hir cofers rich hir apparell was gorgious of nedel worke set out in most pleasant colours hir ornaments of inameled golde bewtifull with manie iewlls and precious stones and for the full measure of hir accomplished glorie she had the Princes of the earth to minister hir cuppes vnto hir Kings to be hir waiting seruants and Emperours to hold hir fotestoole If this estate were yet in hir woūted royaltie then might Maister Harding well say that his Masse were not cracked Now seing all is lost hir buildings are pulled downe hir fortresses batered hir treasuries spoiled her estimation lost and she hir selfe set without the quire we giue thankes vnto God that hath giuen this victorie and we are sorie for Maister Hardings blindnesse that can not yet sée how his Masse is crackt The B. of Saris. If none communicate yet saith he the Masse is not vaine in it selfe but onely as touching the people that will not come Harding The .206 vntruth I say not so Dering Here M. Hard. willing to stop that great inconuenience that riseth of his .204 vntruth maketh a flat deniall of his owne wordes and lest this contrarietie should bréed any péece of discredit he goeth about with a distinction to salue the whole matter whereby he hath got this double commoditie a plaister for his Masse which before he hadde wounded an vntruthe to make vp his proposed number And his distinction is this I say not y t the Masse
in the congregation receiueth alone Theophylacte a later wryter vpon the same place saith Why should we pray our selues Quia haudquaquam meritò id mysterium sumunt multi bicause many do receiue that mysterie nothing worthely By all these Doctors this place is ment of the Communion S. Ambrose saith It any man be impacient domi terreno pane pascatur Let him eate earthly bread at home And againe we come to gether vt multorum oblatio simul celebretur that the Oblation of many might be made together But S. Ambrose calleth not prophane meats suche as their common feasts were either heauenly bread or our oblation S. Chrysostome saith qui hoc non faciunt indigne communicant they that tary not one for an other doe communicate vnworthily And héere againe we sée this Doctors minde of priuate Masse or as M. Harding wil haue it of the priestes sole receiuing Beda saith likewise alleaging S. Augustine Ad Ianuar. Epist. 1. that this which the Apostle writeth in this place is ment of the Communion S. Ierome also dothe so enterprete it Read all these vpon the xj chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinthians Of the same minde are also Augustine Basil Gregorius Romanus And if thou rest vpon the aucthoritie of men examine all the olde Doctors that haue written vpon the same place not them only but suche as are of yonger age as Thomas Scotus Lyra Hugo gloss ordinaria and suche other They all agrée this saying of S. Paule tary one for an other is ment of the Communion Dionysius Carthusianus on the same place speaketh very plaine when ye come together to eate saith S. Paule Panem coelestem saith Dionysius the heaueÌ„ly bread videlicet corpus Domini that is to say the body of the Lord. And Nicholas of Gorram vpon these woordes tary one for an other wryteth thus Docet modum in hora communionis ordinate accedendo he teacheth howe to come orderly in the time of Communion What plainer aucthoritie can there be than these Who séeth not that all antiquitie haue vnderstande S. Paules words of the Communion If thou search them thine eyes shall be thy witnesse Yet saithe maister Harding as he were priuiledged without blame or discredite to speake what he would that Martyr Caluine Cranmer and suche other haue deceiued maister Iuel but it is wonderfull to sée howe he speaketh against the truthe the Lord knoweth whether against his owne conscience Read the Replie Fol. 94. thou shalt further sée â–ª how in the Communion the people came togither But as touching this place bicause the spirite of God is not tied to any man or age we will leaue our witnesses and examine the place First S. Paule blameth them bicause they come togither not with profite but with hurt And then teaching how they ought to come togither and in what sorte to haue their méetings he teacheth them by the example of our sauior Christ and his doctrine saying â–ª that which I haue receiued of the Lord that I haue deliuered vnto you that Iesus Christ in y e same night y t he was betrayed tooke bread c. making a full description of the Lords supper whereunto be adioyneth for this cause many of you are weak c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For this cause which is the vnorderly receiuing the communion Yet saith M. Harding it is ment of their feastes After this it dothe folow in Paule Wherfore my brethren when you come togither to eate tary one for an other Now if this be not yet plaine inough that he meaneth of the Sacrament then looke what foloweth an vndoubted proofe of the whole matter Least saith S. Paule you come togither to your condemnation Is this at any time pronounced of any manner eating but of the vnworthy eating of that blessed sacrament Yet for the priuate Masse sake this plaine scripture must be denyed and impudently wrested into a straunge sense And marke héere how maister Harding would haue S. Paule reason the woordes before are plaine of the Lordes supper Of those words S. Paule concludeth wherefore my brethren c. Then by maister Hardings meaning S. Paule should reason thus A man must prepare him selfe to receiue the Communion Ergo they must tary one for an other at their common feastes such lose arguments the spirite of truth doth not vtter But suche is M. Hardings fashion he dothe not consider how he wresteth Gods scripture while he thus defendeth his vngodly Masse The B. of Saris. The like decrees are found vnder the names of Calixtus Anacletus Martinus Hyllarius and others by which it is certain that the whole church then receiued togither Harding The .221 vntruthe It is not certaine by those decrees Dering Sée the .151 vntruthe It is the same in effecte that this is But let vs sée héere also how truely M. Harding speaketh It doeth not appeare by these decrées saith he that all receiued togither this shall be best tried by the words of the Decrées Calixtus saith thus When consecration is done let all communicate which will not be excluded out of the Churche Anacletus hath the very selfe same woords but how it cometh to passe let the Decretal epistles sée that haue this agréement very often and yet it is very straunge that diuers menne should speake the same woordes Hylarius saythe if thy sinnes be not so great that thou must be excommunicate thou must not seperate thy selfe from the body and bloude of the Lorde Martinus sayth If any man heare the scriptures readen and of a superstitious minde doe thinke he should not Communicate sette him be excommunicate now iudge whether these decrées teach that the whole church should receiue together M. Harding can answere nothing but bringeth two distinctions one olde one which we had before in the .151 vntruthe an other he maketh more to answere Pope Hilarie and that is this where Hilarie saith If he be not excommunicate let him not abstaine from the sacrament We may abstaine saith M. Harding sacramentally though not spiritually If these distinctions may be alowed ther is no aucthoritie so good but let M. Harding slip and he wil answer it But S. Paule saith take héede y t no man spoile you through Philosophy and vaine deceit The B. of Sarisb Chrysostome saith we are all of one worthinesse to receiue the mysteries Harding The .222 vntruthe He saith not so Dering These are Chrysostomes words Est autem vbi nihil differt sacerdos a subdito vt quaÌ„do fruendum est horrendis mysterijs Similiter enim omnes vt illa percipiamê° digni habemur there is a time saith he when the priest dothe differ nothing from the lay man as when they must enioy the dreadful mysteries For we are al accompted of like worthinesse to receiue them And that we should not doubt of his meaning he maketh afterward along discourse to proue this same Yet saith master Harding it is false it is vntrue Chrysostome saith
not we are all of like worthinesse to receiue the mysteries And what saith he else How doeth M. Harding otherwise interprete him Forsoth saith he these woords similiter omnes vt illa percipiamus digni habemur must be thus Englished We are accompted worthy of the selfe same things in like sort not we are all of one worthinesse to receiue them Who hath hearde one in so graue a matter speake so childishly the very woords of Chrysostome vt percipiamus he wil not haue Englished as they lie And bicause M. Iuel doth so English them suche is his impudencie he notes it for an vntruthe But suche to whome God hath giuen the spirite of knowledge and truth they will confesse how he doeth wrangle and if he haue any grace himselfe as oft as he remembreth these vntruthes he wisheth they were againe vnder his file The B. of Saris. Missa in the time of Tertullian and Cyprian was especially applied vnto the Communion Harding The .223 vntruthe It is not so as you meane Dering M. Hard. harpeth much on M. Iuels meaning But vntruths must not be built vpon gesses Read the .169 vntruthe The B. of Saris. Cataechumeni were present at the Communion till the Gospell was done Harding The .224 It was not the Communion they were present at Dering I graunt it wrangle on M. Iuel confesseth when the Gospel was done they were bid depart what a single vntruthe is this What troweth M. Harding we doe not know that that part of seruice which they heard was called Missa cathechumenorum Or doeth he thinke that the gospel was not red in that seruice This vntruthe ariseth bicause he wil not vnderstand not bicause he doeth not M. Iuel calleth that the Communion which was the whole seruice appointed for the celebration of the Lordes supper At the beginning whereof the Nouices in the faithe of Christ might be present till the deacon cried Exeunto catechumeni which was after the gospell was red The B. of Saris. We pray not aide of sicke folkes for the proofe of our holy Communion as M. Harding is driuen to doe for his Masse Harding The .225 vntruthe I proue not the Masse by them Dering This vntruthe is before sixe times Read the .215 vntruthe ¶ Thus are we come to an ende of this weary Reioinder wherein we sée to what issue M. Hardings great vaunts are come his tragicall exclamations in how small matters there be ended and his multitude of vntruthes how without truth they be gathered He tolde vs that this Replie was altogither corrupt and false yet are there a great many leaues in this first article of which he hath not confuted one word what he would haue done in case it had bene blameable this Reioinder dothe sufficiently witnesse He cried out of corruptions alterations manglings and I wote not what of the olde fathers but quid dignum tulit hic tanto promissor hiatu what hath he brought forthe worthy of so wide gaping These vntruthes that were so many in number are now proued none The controlling of so many aucthorities is found nothing but wrangling The often blaming of diuers interpretations is tried either childishe or wilful ignoraunce And some of his owne Doctors on whome with much boasting he had grounded his priuate Masse in the ende he hathe turned to their owne defence With so ill successe he hath impugned truthe And with so slender proofe he hath defended falshood Of these 225. vntruthes which he hath brought some he saithe may be coloured some be shamelesse lies And in déede his testimonie well applied is true For most of them without shame are impudently gathered Some as he hathe vsed them may bring suspition of ouersight But what they are and howe voide of deserued blame it shall appeare if thou reade this Confutation in the which for thy contentation good Christian Reader I must assure thée that I haue not alleaged one aucthoritie wherein I either abridge the authors wordes or enterlace any other of mine owne either else misconstrue his meaning Only sometime bicause the wryting is tedious I alleage the sense and referre thée vnto the place where thou maist examine the wordes If any one of all the lande of Louanists be able to reproue me I wil not let openly to preache it that I haue offended God giue them and vs bothe grace to consider that it is now no time to dally The matter is not suche that it may abide any wrangling The cause is Gods and he néedeth not to be defended with lies If in his cause we goe about deceite by vttering falshoode or by concealing truthe by making moe distinctions or by framing Latine as we liste God is not mocked How so euer we will paint our doings or what clokes of shame so euer we will vse it is true that the Poete saythe Ille dolum ridens quo vincula nectitis inquit He laughing at oure deceitfulnesse shall aske to what purpose we haue tied suche deuises He is truth and he will be defended by truthe and he hateth all those that doe speake lies Therefore good Christian Reader persuade thy selfe that as we haue our accomptes to make vnto him that iudgeth truely so wittingly and willingly we will speake nothing that shall burden oure owne Consciences before his iudgement seate True it is we be menne and as menne we may be deceiued The Prophet hath pronounced the vniuersall sentence and we be all borne vnder the lawe of it that euery manne is a lier therfore to chalēge vnto my doing any such absolute veritie as though no piece of it might be blamed it wer great arrogācie and extreme folly this is sufficient to the indifferent mā and a full contentation vnto mine owne conscience that the Lord is witnesse I know not of any one vntruth I haue vttred And for this great number wherewith M. Iuel is charged better it had bene for M. Harding to haue made them fewer more it might haue hindred M. Iuels cause To deny that any wher he might be deceiued were to exempt him out of the condition of man But these .225 vntruthes in one article while they must be multiplied M. Harding telleth one many times maketh straunge interpretations diuiseth new distinctions in suche sort that euery man may espie his folly God for his mercyes sake lighten once his heart y t yet again he may sée whether he goeth and leade them the way back◠againe vnto rightuousnesse before whome he hath runne so long towarde the kingdome of iniquitie that in the day of anger when euery one shall giue accompt of his doings we may be all founde together in the way of obedience and by grace receiue that eternal kingdome which is not due vnto our workes Which kingdome God graunt vs through the death and passion of his sonne our sauioure Iesus Christ to whome with the father the holy ghost be al honor and glory world without ende Amen Ierem. 8.9 The wise men as ashamed they
doth think the people stād in the priests mouth We know he meaneth some spiritual maner of cōmunicating Be his doctrin neuer so wicked yet we do sée what is his vngodly meaning euery childe seeth this can be no vntruthe there can be but one meaning of these woords The B. of Saris. The .19 Diuision Here M. Harding interlaceth other mater of the office of wedlocke Harding The .124 vntruthe It is S. Ierome that interlaceth it it is not I. Dering Marke gentle reader this vntruthe M. Iuel saith M. Harding interlaceth it M. Harding saith no they are S. Ieromes woords He is so farre gone in straunge distinctions he hathe forgotten plaine Englishe what though the woords be S. Ieromes yet this interlacing of them in his treatise is either his owne or else some of his friendes that might helpe out with his booke The B. of Saris. Thus saith M. Harding Erasmus gathereth priuate Masse out of the scriptures Harding The .125 vntruthe I say it not Dering M. Harding can quote no vntruthe but if he either wrangle or make a lie and in this place he dothe bothe His words are these read them who will Thus dothe Erasmus gather priuate or as M. Iuel iesteth single Communion out of the Scriptures If M. Harding denye this he lieth If he say he meaneth not by the Communion the Masse he wrāgleth and reproueth his owne doing of foly For why maketh he this conclusion if it proue not his Masse So what euer he meaneth this vntruthe is a wrangling lie The B. of Saris. The .22 Diuision Maister Harding vseth a straunge kinde of Logicke he pretendeth priuate Masse and concludeth single Communion Harding The .126 vntruthe I pretende not to proue priuate Masse heere principally Dering Héere principally must helpe one vntruthe but bicause M. Iuel doeth not say principally let maister Harding put it in his bosome and then it is no vntruthe He saith nothing else for proofe of this vntruthe but falleth out with maister Iuel for rebuking the slouthfull Cardinals and Priests of Rome How be it he néede not greatly be offended For the Pope hathe prouided well for them as is already shewed Say what we will an accusation may hardly passe against a Cardinall without thrée score and foure witnesses nor against a Deacon without seuen and twenty if they wil kéepe any modesty or come not on the market hill I warrant them for other places they be safe inough The B. of Saris. The .24 Diuision Maister Harding gathereth this conclusion Harding The .127 vntruthe I gather not this conclusion Dering Maister Harding would faine shift off this argument and his poore friend maister Rastell hathe done for him in this behalfe what he can but it will not be For aunswere to this vntruth a long discourse is néedelesse For the simple can not conceiue it and the learned doe sée it well inough All maner of argumentes what so euer the propositions be they may be reduced to the first figure But this can be none otherwise reduced Therefore this is maister Hardings argument and let him neuer deny it For being in the Hypothetical fourme of propositions it may argue a will to deceiue but it can not empaire the credite of his learning This is sooner diminished by denying this argument than by making it What the argument is reade the Replie Fol. 58. The B. of Saris. These examples maister Harding hath brought to proue his Masse Harding The .128 vntruthe I brought them not to proue the Masse directly Dering In the .126 vntruthe he saide he brought not these aucthorities to proue the Masse principally nowe he saithe they proue it not directly Hadde it bene for espying he might haue made many vntruthes of this he might haue sayde they proue not the Masse immediatly orderly especially chiefly onely effectually purposedly and so made many lyes as well as principally and directly and so make of none a double lie But héere by the way we may note that maister Hardings reasons are little better than maister Iuel maketh them when he himselfe dothe so oft say they proue not his purpose The B. of Saris. That it might seeme lawfull for a priest to say priuate Masse he hath brought in example of lay men wemen sicke folke and boyes Harding The .129 vntruthe It is not so I brought them not to proue the Masse Dering Now good reader marke these thrée vntruthes and sée how thou likest them the .126 they proue not the Masse principally the .128 they proue it not directly and this vntruthe they proue it not at all Now to giue him one vntruthe more and make vp a messe sure what so euer M. Iuel say they proue it but a little and therfore M. Hardings answere is worthy little commendations The B. of Saris. The .25 Diuision He defaceth the holy Communion Harding The .130 vntruthe I deface not the Communion but the Geneuian Communion Dering M. Harding hath nowe gotten the habite he can say nothing without a distinction But all auaileth not God haue the praise Maister Iuel meaneth that Communion which is ministred as well at Geneua as in other godly places where the adulterous and Romish sacraments are banished Therefore this is no vntruth it is our open professiō That Communion which M. Harding blameth is the holy Communion of the Lords body and bloud and the effectuall representation of his deathe The B. of Sarisb Christes example in doing and commanndement to doe the same may not be taken for a shew or accident but for the effecte and substaunce of his supper Harding The .131 vntruthe Christes whole example is not of the substaunce of the Sacrament Dering Marke wel M. Iuels words and M. Hardings vntruthes and thou wilt thinke the Cocatrice doth no more infecte eche thing that she breatheth on than maister Harding dothe those words which he would confute Maister Iuel saith Christes example in doing and commaundement to do the same is of the substaunce of the supper And who wil not say that that is necessary which Christ hath bothe done and commaunded to be done Then how is this vntrue Maister Harding putteth in whole and taketh out commandement to doe the same and maketh maister Iuel say thus Christes whole example is of the substance of the supper and in déede this is false For Christ ministred after supper and sitting and with common bread and in an vsual drinking cuppe and in an house which is neither necessary nor al conuenient for our time Thus we sée what these vntruthes are altogether forced with maister Hardings lies sometime he addeth sometime he detracteth that of all these vntruthes we may wel say it stil the number is so great the substaunce cannot be good The B. of Saris. The sacrifice of the crosse is called the daily sacrifice Harding The .132 vntruthe It is not called so as you meane Dering This vntruthe is all one with the .75 and there maister Harding saith simply that the fathers call